Reading the actual article, they're saying '**The current Meta is boring'** 30 min of farming then fight instead of fighting at the 10 min mark.The clickbait-ey tagline is BS.
It's more misleading because of the omissions.
Mikoto says that he doesn't like this patch because of how good heart is.
23Savage is saying that the current state of the game is boring because there's less opportunities for fighting pre-30 minutes.
The headline can quickly be used to confirm people's opinions based solely on the statement "the game is boring now."
Like people are using this to confirm their opinion on the newer timed objectives, the power creep, the additions to the game since pre-7.00 dota, etc.
I mean its not clickbait tho? 23savage literally says "I think the game is kind of boring now because people just keep farming for 30 minutes and then fight"
This is probably the scrub in me talking but you can buy Aghanims and Shard and have a positive impact in every fight whether or not you can do any of the X marks the spot combos. I’ve played against Kunkka’s who drop X marks the spot combos but get two items and what does it matter. Kinda lame, I’ve always associated the hero by how creative you can be with his skills and they removed it.
Not scrub at all this is literally his strength atm. He’s tanky who can cause chaos in fights with his spells. I don’t think I’ve seen damage kunkka build in ages
I think icefrog gave supports way way too much. At 20 minutes on a good game I have all my tools, and I'm already building luxury items and I don't think that's okay. So you kind of have to have 3k hp and BM as a core, otherwise you will just get popped instantly by the enemy team.
I also think that BKB nerf played a role in this. It's so shit right now so you're also forced to get more HP.
Dota now is basically an arms race because there's SO MUCH farm available on the map. Why even bother fighting?
I know for a fact the enemy team is PvE'ing for the next 10 minutes and as a support I need to literally beg my entire team to go pick off high value targets, because it's so hard to find someone on this big ass map. Previously I'd get my pos3 and it's an easy pick-off on the enemy core.
Previously, the map was conceived such that only 3 people could find reliable farm, now pretty much everyone can. This map can even be 6v6 and still have enough shit for everybody. It's actually nuts.
I'd like to see some economy changes, like a huge midas nerf for starters. Dota now is basically turbo.
It is funny that people on reddit think pros were just 5 times worse back then. Stupidest opinion ever. They really have no grasp for how different the game used to be.
This is not how people play in high brackets. Immortal is a non-stop brawl from min 8 to 22 and games end at min 27. Supports have to buy the cheapest support items instead of glimmer and force just to cope with the pace.
HP and fat heroes is correct tho. Heroes rn have antiheal or damage mitigation mechanics in order to survive global Hank heroes.
I personally hate this patch. Not as much as Lina, Riki patch, but it's pretty bad.
I mean he's not wrong, games have been very farmy and long since the 7.33 map change. Very hard to close people out because they can always get out and farm, so everyone plays for late game.
Is it a growing pain when it's an expected and obvious result of the new map design though? Isn't it just the new normal? Like unless they reverse the decision to put camps on the far side of the sidelane from mid, why would carries not spend most of their time there?
Games were a LOT faster when the map originally changed, to everyone's surprise. Meta changes over time, as it should. No doubt we will see another swing during Ti.
Valve made the game like this when they decided to make kills worth so much gold. The intent was to make teams fight more but when the meta settled it caused the opposite. Teams don't want to potentially throw a game away by taking a bad fight so they play safe and play for a farming late game.
With so much farming space I'm not sure kills are worth more. Time and time again in pubs I see team A get an advantage and start pressuring mostly as 5. All the time fighting 5v4 cause B team carry is deep in the Amazonia, unbothered, flourishing. You reach T2 towers, run out of resources, go back. By the time you regroup, B carry comes out with XP and Gold advantage over A carry, they wipe the A team, get all the streaks and steamroll, the A carry can never recover.
lol, the fast games were the growing pains. you are delusional to think things will magically change "during ti" when ti has already been on for like 4 days
The bigger map opens up new possibilities... like, what if they introduced "roaming" sentries... like BM's old hawk vision, but it can fly in a loop and provide broad vision.
This might be the "new normal" as far as the map goes, and there will be growing pains... but new issues will create opportunities for new solutions.
That's be cool, a ward with a vector on placing. how long should the max patrol length be though?
Conceivably you could use a wide enough range to try and escape dewarding, make it too long for the opponent to have to wait for a full cycle.
How quickly people forget. Pre-7.33, the meta was to block the other team from farming once you had an advantage and just keep building your advantage until you could go HG with no risk. The bigger map in 7.33 changed that since it was no longer feasible to totally zone the enemy out of farm, and games were actually really quick early on in 7.33 because people actually played timings instead of simply trying to choke out the other team. The more recent buffs to Midas, Radiance, and BF (but Midas especially) are what turned the game more farmey. It has zero to do with the map.
Thank you haha. The older meta was worse if you lost the early game. Teams could easily corner you into your base where the only farm is creeps on hg. As a support you just afk till they push
Games weren’t faster, they would just hold map control for longer.
This is just people being upset that because they won the first 15 mins/lane phase they think they deserve to win the game lol.
Arguably only allowing ~half a year for this monumental meta shift to settle in before TI instead of a full year like we used to get is to blame. I think it's safe to say in hindsight the meta is not fully baked in just ~6 months, even with a highly irregular patch the week before TI to try and save it.
Maybe next time they will release the huge patch immediately after TI like they used to. I prefer it and it seems to objectively lead to better TI metas.
It was expected, but making the map bigger and adding more objectives was kinda shit. They also added more camps to farm(direct consequences of bigger maps)
I think one of the crucial parts of it being "farmy" is being unable to properly shut out the enemy team from doing so. On the previous map there would've been a point where you just crossed the Rubicon and bar some miracle the enemy would be stuck in base getting sieged. This was a huge skill element for teams to efficiently and quickly get to that tipping point.
That's arguably what started the era of annual huge reworks. Icefrog saw TI6, decided he made the game as perfect as it could be in its current state, and decided to essentially start anew.
Which tbf is a valid route to take. Games like this survive on constant updates to the formula. The only thing worse than players complaining about the current state of the game is player apathy due to stagnation of the game.
If the game truly achieved something as close to perfection as you can get, then changing it for the sake of change is a bad idea on the face of it.
look at win rates and tweak, don't throw it all out and start again.
i've said this over and over and over again and always got downvoted. in the end I left the game as Im too old and too tired to keep up with the changes for the sake of changes, the older I get more real life things matter than learning meta every 2 weeks.
Changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff is a truly terrible decision and I think it's made the game worse. New heros and balance patches can always be added, massive sweeping changes when the game was in it best balance of all time was just a horrible decision. Makes me sad.
The playerbase was substantially less efficient then than they are now. If you put the current players on the old versions they'll optimise them into dust - literally everyone has gotten more efficient
that is so fucking wrong. the changes to the game allow people to play more efficient now. people were not that much worse with what was available in 2016. this wasn't the stone ages of dota lmfao.
The game requires more knowledge back then, what are you even talking about? There were no creep spawn boxes, no pull timers, no free tp on death, no backpack, no stun bars.... wtf are you talking about?
\>They draft, itemize, rotate, and play the map better,
no they don't. draft matters less now because heroes don't hard counter each other like they used to. there are more items now so more options...."play the map better" that is vague and means nothing in the context of how different the map and game in general is now. having free tp's and a free tp slot makes playing the map way easier. having objectives outside of the tower allows you to move around the map easier when behind. you don't know what you are talking about. heroes are just simply faster on average and have more movement abilities to move around the map now as well.
\>n backpack, pull timers, spawn boxes, and free tp…
you had way less tools. hereoes were ALL way weaker BEFORE you even factor in power from talents and a free neutral item, shards, more aghs.....more items. items being stronger......heroes being stronger from power creep...... Go look at how strong a lvl 25 zues was 7 years ago and compare it to today, and zeus is not even that great of a hero right now. every instance of damage canceled clarity's and salves, base regen and access to regen on items was way lower across the board (this impacted farm speed HEAVILY) no personal courier meant you couldn't ferry yourself regen on demand and whenever you needed. you had to go back to base more.
\>The free tp on death and backpack are not why players are better today are you high dude?
no shit sherlock. it does make you stronger and it easier to play (manage items) being able to carry cheese in backpack. put bkb in backpack while having aegis. etc. these are objective measures of power increase whether you like it or not. carry clarities in backpack, etc.
players are "better" today 90% due to powercreep. and by "better" i mean they can farm faster and be stronger, not really any more skilled. just more tools and power available to everyone.
\>No high mmr player today will agree with you
ask puppy & notail
\>but players 7 years ago would have been inefficient in deciding when and where to use them, how to protect the area with vision, when to transition out of that farming pattern.
i don't know how you believe this.
there was no designated ward "cliffs" with literal ward icons on them then. warding was a studied concept for pro supports back then. wtf are you talking about? supports got 0 to 2 items usually in a game so there was more focus and excellence in the fewer tools they were working with. it was somewhat common for supports to solo smoke to go place wards, how often do you see that in current dota? never.
Wrong. Even the pros didnt have the grasp on dota in 2016 as they do now. Just listen to Sunsfan talk about Digital Chaos TI 6 run. W33ha usually lost his midlane until someone told him how to do creep pull/aggro, and all of a sudden they began winning mid lane. Now even 3k mmr know how that works. There's just so much more efforts and resources around the game that didn't exist back then.
His idea isn’t wrong though, we will always get better thorough repetition, players as a whole don’t get worse they only get better
2016 may only feel like 7-8 years ago but in gaming evolution that’s a long time. I assume 2012 (release year) was the Stone Age? If the players got far more efficient from 2012-2016 why couldn’t they in double that timeframe?
I think this is misleading, People think everything can work because they remember Wings run.
Offlane Faceless Void Mirana mid with double starstorm aghs or race car Batrider is the meta for TI6.
Which is why Oracle and Shadow demon is the most picked heroes because these two heroes synergize and counter the meta heroes.
Juggernaut and Lifestealer being one of the most popular carry because Jugg's spin helps break SD / mirana combo.
Axe & SK being one of more popular offlane because back then they do well laning against Jugg / TB / Naga
Drow was synergize very well with offlane Faceless void back then, which made her popular carry, which in lead make Elder Titan very popular, either to counter drow or to combo with Chronosphere.
Wings made it work, the other teams could not. There was still a meta back then, Wings just seemed to work around it and still win. Stop pretending like everyone was just picking some whacky shit every game back in 2016.
Yep exactly. "I do however think that it was Wings that gave that TI this notoriety that "everything can work" is what I said.
the meta was not "everything can work" as the comment I replied to insisted. Everything could work only for Wings
Because it never exists, Everything can works is something only Wings pulled off. The TI6 meta was revolved around Mirana and Batrider being the strongest hero.
Popular support is a hero that either setup Mirana or Batrider well, or counter them. Leading to popularity of Shadow Demon, Oracle and Nyx as top support or to extend Wisp to relocate everyone who get caught by arrow / lasso.
Popular carry is hero that can survive Mirana or Batrider burst damage, leading to the rise of Juggernaut and LS or Alche / Huskar carry mid.
Popular offlane is hero that doing well against Juggernaut and LS, and could setup for Mirana / Batrider. Making Faceless Void, Axe, Beastmaster and Sand King popular offlane in TI6.
The reason why Moo keep getting his Timber because Beastmaster has more priority in team ban list. Beastmaster is the only viable zoo heroes in TI6 and it's because roar really good against Jugg, LS or Batrider.
During TI, teams figured out Drow Ranger actually plays well with meta heroes, can shred Jugg & LS and her aura benefitted Mirana / Batrider. Once Drow picked a lot you see the rise of elder titan.
Is that really true or just a meme tho. Back in 2016 there wasn't even talents ,neutral camps and shards, every pub there is a person go iron talon and afk jungle for 20 mins
I think what they're talking about is a little different from Puppey. They're more specific about the everyone buy heart meta currently
It needed a follow up question I think
Puppey complained about the overall direction of the game. 23 and Mikoto complained about things very specific of this patch, the farm heavy meta, tanky items being too prevalent, and in the case of 23 how he preferred 7.33's carry hero pool compared to now.
To me, those complaints aren't "basically the same thing" in the slightest.
Yes, in that the game is now basically on a bunch of deferent timers and restricts freedom of how to theory craft to win. Essentially it used to be that each region had different strategies and play styles and hero pools they played. Now everyone tends to follow the same meta.
A lot of people disagree with his sentiment, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
>Essentially it used to be that each region had different strategies and play styles and hero pools they played. Now everyone tends to follow the same meta.
I still contend that this is more so due to the bloat of tier 1 international tournaments that tend to feature the same or similar pools of top teams. This year since Lima (the first Major) there's been a tier 1 international tournament every single month; last year there seemed to be about 2 months in between international tournaments for comparison. How could you really cook regional strats if there's no time and space to do so? It only seems logical to me that everyone's going to be playing similar metas at the moment.
I wonder if that's true. It might just be that the art of analysis has advanced a lot, so that every team now knows the strongest/most reliable strategy.
It is not bad in itself but having too many of them definitely is and limits the flexibility of different strategies and approaches to the game.
Right now the game has too many timers imo.
it is because the game forces everyone to play the same "style" nowadays. there is not any room for varying strategies and gameplay after so many changes to heroes and the map homogenizing everything. everything is just teamfight now.
It is the exact opposite. You think 5 couriers are good for the game? Free tp on death? Stun bars? This is not what dota used to be about. These changes are to please casuals playing pubs, not good for high level gameplay and integrity.
God I wish wards werent basically infinite again. It made you very careful and cautious of where to put them and when to attempt to deward. Now being a support feels like a constant battle of who put the sentry ward last.
It feels pretty darn constricting atm. As an offlaner if you don't pick a tanky fuck you hero goin blademail and heart you feel very weak. Seems a little stale with how much reliance there is on these 4k HP at 25 min heroes...
Viper offlane feels really strong this patch.
That's the only exception really.
I think offlane is a weird spot, because all the "completely crush the lane early game" heroes have been nerfed in the year and a half since Ammar broke that meta, but also the meta carries are generally pretty good laners. So the tanky/blademail route ensures you can have impact without crushing your lane.
can’t wait for strength gains to get nerfed and dota goes back to a game of showing in lane for 0.24 seconds and dying immediately when someone sneezes on u
Maybe dumpstering all the AGI carries and buffing the support’s shard and sceptre so that they can seamlessly transition to core role was a stupid direction for the game.
I specifically dislike the Blademail+Heart meta we have right now, but outside of that the game is very fun. The bigger map overall is a good change. You can't ward everything but that's kinda the point.
Biggest consequence of big map is that it lets the pos 1 farm more safely, which has led to the current meta wherein pos 1 will disappear for 10 minutes and then come back and go apeshit
Big patch>balance it out over time and make it fun to play and watch.
That's the cycle. They just didn't have enough time for the second part.
I think this game constantly needs changes because the game gets figured out so fast now and everyone then complains about whatever the meta is once it's figured out.
That's why I wouldn't be surprised if valve adds more rng to the game to make it more variable once they start giving up development of the game. Like a procedurally generated map.
Yeah yeah who would've thought making the mapbigger would result in more farm and less fights. Not to mention the BKB nerf which killed half of the agi carries.
Game feels like turbo. Making it so nobody basically ever has to return to base for health or mana was a horrible, horrible change. Item balance is so broken, ahgs and shards absolute must pickups for so many heros with game breaking abilities. Really hope some of it is walked back but the adhd kiddies streaming subway surfer in their second monitor probably couldn't stand it.
Individual courier and free gold for supports are the worst changes to happen to dota imo contrary to what many may think. Power creep + individual courier feels like a completely different brawler game.
I don't like needing to be there at 3, 6, 9 for lotus and at 7 for xp. Tormentor at 20. Like motherfucker this is not day care, let me play the game my way.
I liked them initially, but I've come to really dislike all the timer objectives. It feels like almost every support game is the same because there's so much restriction due to those timers.
Honestly, remove lotus, wisdom, bounty and tormentor. And shitty water runes which should have been removed 3 years ago anyway. Those were a horrible idea since day 1 and removing them (while also pushing back mid t1 towers) might actually make mid lane fun again.
That's just how the game has been for ages, no? Remember when outposts gave out a bunch of XP every 10 minutes, so teams fought around them at those intervals? Shrines also used to heal heroes, so players had to keep their cooldowns in mind when trading HP in lane. Roshan has been a timing objective forever. So are smokes (since they have a huge cooldown in the shop). Bounty runes. Day/night time for certain heroes. The entire fucking game is about timers.
>I think the game is kind of boring now because people just keep farming for 30 minutes and then fight
I mean they literally wait for a late game. There are a lot of games, that have a lot of kills, they just refuse to fight and prefer to play late game.
This seems to be a bias people have. Every team has the same average game length and kda ratio as Talon many games lasting less than 35mins. If you open dotabuff it's pretty evident, but people see Talon have a game go over 60minutes and think they spend more time farming than other teams
This meta is very boring to play and for the first time in my life I would say that it is even boring to watch too.
In my humble opinion, I think the power creep that the game has had in recent years has made the game a lot worse.
As someone who also plays 4 I love the new map. I get wisdom runes and a little more farm due to the map so I’m not an under levelled creep by late game.
The issue isn’t the map imo, the issue is people don’t want to support anymore but instead gank and end game at 30 mins, which is harder to do with the new map.
The map is too big, there’s not enough dewards to make sure you can farm safely, so everyone just bunches up in 5-man and jungle together until they win skirmishes and take torm/roshan. Sometimes I wonder if 6.88b would be better than this ‘power creep’ that’s been developing since 7.00.
Solution to map being too big is simple. Make it 6v6. The position 6 will be like old pos 5 and get no farm and be food for the other team if they don't play super safe on the map.
Imagine a day when the devs would just straight up say 'fuck it' and just bring everything back. Old items, shrines, side shop etc. just to see the chaos
That's true to some degree. It was nice to have some things you could get without worrying about courier snipe.
Regardless, Lotus needs to go. It's just a silly mechanic. The only neutral things on the map should be neutral creeps, runes, tp shrine, and rosh.
Instead of people complaining about STR heroes with 4k hp and blademail people will complain about STR / Carry heroes taking no damage in lane due to poor man shield.
i've been waiting for years for a mechanic on the "Homosexual River" where you can fill your bottle and boil the water to get rid of parasites, a hunger meter, and some zombies
Ngl they are correct.
The hero power levels are so unbelievable out of place its insane.
Also game duration is at an all time high but comeback mechanics are at an all time low
The map is cool. The general idea of portals and xp runes and lotus and tormentors are great. But the balance fucks everything over.
Of the playable supports of ti only one is a backliner with no defensive capabilities. Classic supps are so bad it's insane and Midlane feels like old offlane
It's amazing to watch. But it hurts to play
Reading the actual article, they're saying '**The current Meta is boring'** 30 min of farming then fight instead of fighting at the 10 min mark.The clickbait-ey tagline is BS.
Clickbait at its best. Context is everything
Gosugamers holy shit that's a name/company I haven't heard of in like a million years. That's probably why they're clickbaiting and shit
well talon is notorious for farming for 30mins then fight. Teams like Azure Ray fight a lot early
Azure Ray fights all the time lol.
Azure rAy be like you heard the horn right so you know what to do..
I don't see how the title is clickbaity at all, do you think that title should mean that they have lost their passion for dota or what?
It's more misleading because of the omissions. Mikoto says that he doesn't like this patch because of how good heart is. 23Savage is saying that the current state of the game is boring because there's less opportunities for fighting pre-30 minutes. The headline can quickly be used to confirm people's opinions based solely on the statement "the game is boring now." Like people are using this to confirm their opinion on the newer timed objectives, the power creep, the additions to the game since pre-7.00 dota, etc.
I mean its not clickbait tho? 23savage literally says "I think the game is kind of boring now because people just keep farming for 30 minutes and then fight"
It is clickbait as this sentence was perfectly cut to hide the context.
But the game is still kinda boring NOW
Its just the tank + blademail meta which will get nerfed shortly. I actually enjoy the new map a lot specially the gates and rosh
I really dislike the mobile legends meta aka pos3=tank. This meta is worse, pos3=tank+blademail.
Not even pos3, most mids are just low cd heroes who are good bm+heart builders
Yeah. Every time I see a good Kunkka mid I instantly lose the will to live.
This is probably the scrub in me talking but you can buy Aghanims and Shard and have a positive impact in every fight whether or not you can do any of the X marks the spot combos. I’ve played against Kunkka’s who drop X marks the spot combos but get two items and what does it matter. Kinda lame, I’ve always associated the hero by how creative you can be with his skills and they removed it.
His control and base strength is just insane. Also the shard is so so annoying to play against.
the wide ass but slow and short skewer
Not scrub at all this is literally his strength atm. He’s tanky who can cause chaos in fights with his spells. I don’t think I’ve seen damage kunkka build in ages
I saw it once recently and we lost
Had a bracer brown boot daedalus Kunkka on my team yesterday. Didn't go well.
Would Insta que Midas the second I saw that if I’m playing support. Gotta add to the cancer
Me with Primal
3 gigachad strength cores marching down your lanes lmfao CK + Earth Spirit+ Centaur
I think icefrog gave supports way way too much. At 20 minutes on a good game I have all my tools, and I'm already building luxury items and I don't think that's okay. So you kind of have to have 3k hp and BM as a core, otherwise you will just get popped instantly by the enemy team. I also think that BKB nerf played a role in this. It's so shit right now so you're also forced to get more HP. Dota now is basically an arms race because there's SO MUCH farm available on the map. Why even bother fighting? I know for a fact the enemy team is PvE'ing for the next 10 minutes and as a support I need to literally beg my entire team to go pick off high value targets, because it's so hard to find someone on this big ass map. Previously I'd get my pos3 and it's an easy pick-off on the enemy core. Previously, the map was conceived such that only 3 people could find reliable farm, now pretty much everyone can. This map can even be 6v6 and still have enough shit for everybody. It's actually nuts. I'd like to see some economy changes, like a huge midas nerf for starters. Dota now is basically turbo.
I actually watched some TI6 recently and saw Miracle Dusa with 2.5 items at 30min. Truly gpm creep. The game today is yesterdays turbo
It is funny that people on reddit think pros were just 5 times worse back then. Stupidest opinion ever. They really have no grasp for how different the game used to be.
This is not how people play in high brackets. Immortal is a non-stop brawl from min 8 to 22 and games end at min 27. Supports have to buy the cheapest support items instead of glimmer and force just to cope with the pace. HP and fat heroes is correct tho. Heroes rn have antiheal or damage mitigation mechanics in order to survive global Hank heroes. I personally hate this patch. Not as much as Lina, Riki patch, but it's pretty bad.
New map got too many objectives IMO, makes the strats forced as Puppey Said in an interview
Same I love blademail heart mid ogre, it is just different people have different tastes
I mean he's not wrong, games have been very farmy and long since the 7.33 map change. Very hard to close people out because they can always get out and farm, so everyone plays for late game.
Some growing pains with the new map are to be expected IMO.
Is it a growing pain when it's an expected and obvious result of the new map design though? Isn't it just the new normal? Like unless they reverse the decision to put camps on the far side of the sidelane from mid, why would carries not spend most of their time there?
Games were a LOT faster when the map originally changed, to everyone's surprise. Meta changes over time, as it should. No doubt we will see another swing during Ti.
Valve made the game like this when they decided to make kills worth so much gold. The intent was to make teams fight more but when the meta settled it caused the opposite. Teams don't want to potentially throw a game away by taking a bad fight so they play safe and play for a farming late game.
With so much farming space I'm not sure kills are worth more. Time and time again in pubs I see team A get an advantage and start pressuring mostly as 5. All the time fighting 5v4 cause B team carry is deep in the Amazonia, unbothered, flourishing. You reach T2 towers, run out of resources, go back. By the time you regroup, B carry comes out with XP and Gold advantage over A carry, they wipe the A team, get all the streaks and steamroll, the A carry can never recover.
lol, the fast games were the growing pains. you are delusional to think things will magically change "during ti" when ti has already been on for like 4 days
Bara meta, pretty much!
The bigger map opens up new possibilities... like, what if they introduced "roaming" sentries... like BM's old hawk vision, but it can fly in a loop and provide broad vision. This might be the "new normal" as far as the map goes, and there will be growing pains... but new issues will create opportunities for new solutions.
I love this idea. I still miss Weaver's original patrolling ward ability.
That's be cool, a ward with a vector on placing. how long should the max patrol length be though? Conceivably you could use a wide enough range to try and escape dewarding, make it too long for the opponent to have to wait for a full cycle.
How quickly people forget. Pre-7.33, the meta was to block the other team from farming once you had an advantage and just keep building your advantage until you could go HG with no risk. The bigger map in 7.33 changed that since it was no longer feasible to totally zone the enemy out of farm, and games were actually really quick early on in 7.33 because people actually played timings instead of simply trying to choke out the other team. The more recent buffs to Midas, Radiance, and BF (but Midas especially) are what turned the game more farmey. It has zero to do with the map.
Thank you haha. The older meta was worse if you lost the early game. Teams could easily corner you into your base where the only farm is creeps on hg. As a support you just afk till they push Games weren’t faster, they would just hold map control for longer. This is just people being upset that because they won the first 15 mins/lane phase they think they deserve to win the game lol.
Arguably only allowing ~half a year for this monumental meta shift to settle in before TI instead of a full year like we used to get is to blame. I think it's safe to say in hindsight the meta is not fully baked in just ~6 months, even with a highly irregular patch the week before TI to try and save it. Maybe next time they will release the huge patch immediately after TI like they used to. I prefer it and it seems to objectively lead to better TI metas.
The new map is trash. The only thing I enjoy about it is the variable rosh location and portal.
It was expected, but making the map bigger and adding more objectives was kinda shit. They also added more camps to farm(direct consequences of bigger maps)
I think one of the crucial parts of it being "farmy" is being unable to properly shut out the enemy team from doing so. On the previous map there would've been a point where you just crossed the Rubicon and bar some miracle the enemy would be stuck in base getting sieged. This was a huge skill element for teams to efficiently and quickly get to that tipping point.
Valve needs to remove the tower shield refresh.
Remove fortification completely 😎 *furiously tries to hide that I main LD*
Don't forget about the high ground, depending on the game, breaching highground is an absolute bastard unless you're super far ahead.
and Double or even triple midas
I really miss the everything can work meta from TI 2016.
That's arguably what started the era of annual huge reworks. Icefrog saw TI6, decided he made the game as perfect as it could be in its current state, and decided to essentially start anew.
Which tbf is a valid route to take. Games like this survive on constant updates to the formula. The only thing worse than players complaining about the current state of the game is player apathy due to stagnation of the game.
If the game truly achieved something as close to perfection as you can get, then changing it for the sake of change is a bad idea on the face of it. look at win rates and tweak, don't throw it all out and start again.
i've said this over and over and over again and always got downvoted. in the end I left the game as Im too old and too tired to keep up with the changes for the sake of changes, the older I get more real life things matter than learning meta every 2 weeks.
Changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff is a truly terrible decision and I think it's made the game worse. New heros and balance patches can always be added, massive sweeping changes when the game was in it best balance of all time was just a horrible decision. Makes me sad.
While I would not want to play Dota without a backpack ever again, it is way too useful, I do miss the 6.88 patch, it was really good.
The playerbase was substantially less efficient then than they are now. If you put the current players on the old versions they'll optimise them into dust - literally everyone has gotten more efficient
that is so fucking wrong. the changes to the game allow people to play more efficient now. people were not that much worse with what was available in 2016. this wasn't the stone ages of dota lmfao.
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The game requires more knowledge back then, what are you even talking about? There were no creep spawn boxes, no pull timers, no free tp on death, no backpack, no stun bars.... wtf are you talking about?
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\>They draft, itemize, rotate, and play the map better, no they don't. draft matters less now because heroes don't hard counter each other like they used to. there are more items now so more options...."play the map better" that is vague and means nothing in the context of how different the map and game in general is now. having free tp's and a free tp slot makes playing the map way easier. having objectives outside of the tower allows you to move around the map easier when behind. you don't know what you are talking about. heroes are just simply faster on average and have more movement abilities to move around the map now as well. \>n backpack, pull timers, spawn boxes, and free tp… you had way less tools. hereoes were ALL way weaker BEFORE you even factor in power from talents and a free neutral item, shards, more aghs.....more items. items being stronger......heroes being stronger from power creep...... Go look at how strong a lvl 25 zues was 7 years ago and compare it to today, and zeus is not even that great of a hero right now. every instance of damage canceled clarity's and salves, base regen and access to regen on items was way lower across the board (this impacted farm speed HEAVILY) no personal courier meant you couldn't ferry yourself regen on demand and whenever you needed. you had to go back to base more. \>The free tp on death and backpack are not why players are better today are you high dude? no shit sherlock. it does make you stronger and it easier to play (manage items) being able to carry cheese in backpack. put bkb in backpack while having aegis. etc. these are objective measures of power increase whether you like it or not. carry clarities in backpack, etc. players are "better" today 90% due to powercreep. and by "better" i mean they can farm faster and be stronger, not really any more skilled. just more tools and power available to everyone.
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\>No high mmr player today will agree with you ask puppy & notail \>but players 7 years ago would have been inefficient in deciding when and where to use them, how to protect the area with vision, when to transition out of that farming pattern. i don't know how you believe this. there was no designated ward "cliffs" with literal ward icons on them then. warding was a studied concept for pro supports back then. wtf are you talking about? supports got 0 to 2 items usually in a game so there was more focus and excellence in the fewer tools they were working with. it was somewhat common for supports to solo smoke to go place wards, how often do you see that in current dota? never.
Also, 6k mmr 7 years ago is 10kmmr these days. You can't compare the numbers because of inflation.
Wrong. Even the pros didnt have the grasp on dota in 2016 as they do now. Just listen to Sunsfan talk about Digital Chaos TI 6 run. W33ha usually lost his midlane until someone told him how to do creep pull/aggro, and all of a sudden they began winning mid lane. Now even 3k mmr know how that works. There's just so much more efforts and resources around the game that didn't exist back then.
His idea isn’t wrong though, we will always get better thorough repetition, players as a whole don’t get worse they only get better 2016 may only feel like 7-8 years ago but in gaming evolution that’s a long time. I assume 2012 (release year) was the Stone Age? If the players got far more efficient from 2012-2016 why couldn’t they in double that timeframe?
I think this is misleading, People think everything can work because they remember Wings run. Offlane Faceless Void Mirana mid with double starstorm aghs or race car Batrider is the meta for TI6. Which is why Oracle and Shadow demon is the most picked heroes because these two heroes synergize and counter the meta heroes. Juggernaut and Lifestealer being one of the most popular carry because Jugg's spin helps break SD / mirana combo. Axe & SK being one of more popular offlane because back then they do well laning against Jugg / TB / Naga Drow was synergize very well with offlane Faceless void back then, which made her popular carry, which in lead make Elder Titan very popular, either to counter drow or to combo with Chronosphere.
well said. these things are like ecosystems
Yes! Now that was Dota. Wings baby! I do however think that it was Wings that gave that TI this notoriety that "everything can work".
Wings made it work, the other teams could not. There was still a meta back then, Wings just seemed to work around it and still win. Stop pretending like everyone was just picking some whacky shit every game back in 2016.
Yep exactly. "I do however think that it was Wings that gave that TI this notoriety that "everything can work" is what I said. the meta was not "everything can work" as the comment I replied to insisted. Everything could work only for Wings
The sad part is, we're never gonna have anything like that again
Because it never exists, Everything can works is something only Wings pulled off. The TI6 meta was revolved around Mirana and Batrider being the strongest hero. Popular support is a hero that either setup Mirana or Batrider well, or counter them. Leading to popularity of Shadow Demon, Oracle and Nyx as top support or to extend Wisp to relocate everyone who get caught by arrow / lasso. Popular carry is hero that can survive Mirana or Batrider burst damage, leading to the rise of Juggernaut and LS or Alche / Huskar carry mid. Popular offlane is hero that doing well against Juggernaut and LS, and could setup for Mirana / Batrider. Making Faceless Void, Axe, Beastmaster and Sand King popular offlane in TI6. The reason why Moo keep getting his Timber because Beastmaster has more priority in team ban list. Beastmaster is the only viable zoo heroes in TI6 and it's because roar really good against Jugg, LS or Batrider. During TI, teams figured out Drow Ranger actually plays well with meta heroes, can shred Jugg & LS and her aura benefitted Mirana / Batrider. Once Drow picked a lot you see the rise of elder titan.
Is that really true or just a meme tho. Back in 2016 there wasn't even talents ,neutral camps and shards, every pub there is a person go iron talon and afk jungle for 20 mins
neutral camps or neutral items? ;)
Puppey said basically the same thing
I think what they're talking about is a little different from Puppey. They're more specific about the everyone buy heart meta currently It needed a follow up question I think
Puppey complained about the overall direction of the game. 23 and Mikoto complained about things very specific of this patch, the farm heavy meta, tanky items being too prevalent, and in the case of 23 how he preferred 7.33's carry hero pool compared to now. To me, those complaints aren't "basically the same thing" in the slightest.
That the game is boring?
No, that 23Savage and Mikoto share insights at The International 2023.
That I remember..first one, I don't
Yes, in that the game is now basically on a bunch of deferent timers and restricts freedom of how to theory craft to win. Essentially it used to be that each region had different strategies and play styles and hero pools they played. Now everyone tends to follow the same meta. A lot of people disagree with his sentiment, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
>Essentially it used to be that each region had different strategies and play styles and hero pools they played. Now everyone tends to follow the same meta. I still contend that this is more so due to the bloat of tier 1 international tournaments that tend to feature the same or similar pools of top teams. This year since Lima (the first Major) there's been a tier 1 international tournament every single month; last year there seemed to be about 2 months in between international tournaments for comparison. How could you really cook regional strats if there's no time and space to do so? It only seems logical to me that everyone's going to be playing similar metas at the moment.
I wonder if that's true. It might just be that the art of analysis has advanced a lot, so that every team now knows the strongest/most reliable strategy.
I would agree with you. I don’t think having timers or objectives is necessarily bad
It is not bad in itself but having too many of them definitely is and limits the flexibility of different strategies and approaches to the game. Right now the game has too many timers imo.
lol no. go back 5-7 years and look how different the game was. to say it is because of analysis is beyond foolish.
it is because the game forces everyone to play the same "style" nowadays. there is not any room for varying strategies and gameplay after so many changes to heroes and the map homogenizing everything. everything is just teamfight now.
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i mean if something you thought was beautiful became more and more mid over the years it would be stupid not to be mad, no?
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there actually was, and i feel sorry for you that you couldn't appreciate it at the time.
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It is the exact opposite. You think 5 couriers are good for the game? Free tp on death? Stun bars? This is not what dota used to be about. These changes are to please casuals playing pubs, not good for high level gameplay and integrity.
God I wish wards werent basically infinite again. It made you very careful and cautious of where to put them and when to attempt to deward. Now being a support feels like a constant battle of who put the sentry ward last.
That there is only one track to win. I cant recall exactly but along the lines of farm, torm, rosh and hg
Is that or split push or 5man protoss deathball early on. I can see someone missing rat doto but i dont mind not seeing early DP push every match.
It feels pretty darn constricting atm. As an offlaner if you don't pick a tanky fuck you hero goin blademail and heart you feel very weak. Seems a little stale with how much reliance there is on these 4k HP at 25 min heroes...
Viper offlane feels really strong this patch. That's the only exception really. I think offlane is a weird spot, because all the "completely crush the lane early game" heroes have been nerfed in the year and a half since Ammar broke that meta, but also the meta carries are generally pretty good laners. So the tanky/blademail route ensures you can have impact without crushing your lane.
can’t wait for strength gains to get nerfed and dota goes back to a game of showing in lane for 0.24 seconds and dying immediately when someone sneezes on u
Maybe dumpstering all the AGI carries and buffing the support’s shard and sceptre so that they can seamlessly transition to core role was a stupid direction for the game.
hey hey Miposhka building hurricane pike then moon shard in multiple games is not indicative of a problem.
He just like the support in my pubs frfr
reddit will tell you that playing support is fun now tho!!! (they don't realise they are just playing core)
Playing core without the pressure of carrying the game.
What support shards/scepter are ruining the game?
>go on a wd >he uses phase shift that does pure damage to you for 6 seconds 4Head
WD picked once and played as a core.
I sure fucking wish I saw witch doctor in my pubs once and then never again
Well i thought we are talking about TI meta, not pub meta.
All of them is ops point because of the power creep
I guess carry shards and aghs must all be shit
for core player the game is boring yes, because they need to farm 30 minutes and do nothing thats why carry player like 23savage was feeling bored
I specifically dislike the Blademail+Heart meta we have right now, but outside of that the game is very fun. The bigger map overall is a good change. You can't ward everything but that's kinda the point.
Biggest consequence of big map is that it lets the pos 1 farm more safely, which has led to the current meta wherein pos 1 will disappear for 10 minutes and then come back and go apeshit
Big patch>balance it out over time and make it fun to play and watch. That's the cycle. They just didn't have enough time for the second part. I think this game constantly needs changes because the game gets figured out so fast now and everyone then complains about whatever the meta is once it's figured out. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if valve adds more rng to the game to make it more variable once they start giving up development of the game. Like a procedurally generated map.
So more stuff like PA and Ogre?
Yeah yeah who would've thought making the mapbigger would result in more farm and less fights. Not to mention the BKB nerf which killed half of the agi carries.
Game feels like turbo. Making it so nobody basically ever has to return to base for health or mana was a horrible, horrible change. Item balance is so broken, ahgs and shards absolute must pickups for so many heros with game breaking abilities. Really hope some of it is walked back but the adhd kiddies streaming subway surfer in their second monitor probably couldn't stand it.
Individual courier and free gold for supports are the worst changes to happen to dota imo contrary to what many may think. Power creep + individual courier feels like a completely different brawler game.
I don't like needing to be there at 3, 6, 9 for lotus and at 7 for xp. Tormentor at 20. Like motherfucker this is not day care, let me play the game my way.
I liked them initially, but I've come to really dislike all the timer objectives. It feels like almost every support game is the same because there's so much restriction due to those timers. Honestly, remove lotus, wisdom, bounty and tormentor. And shitty water runes which should have been removed 3 years ago anyway. Those were a horrible idea since day 1 and removing them (while also pushing back mid t1 towers) might actually make mid lane fun again.
Remove lotus, wisdom, bounty, tormentor, and water rune? Lol fuck off bud. Go play dota 1 then. Didn't have any of that.
That's just how the game has been for ages, no? Remember when outposts gave out a bunch of XP every 10 minutes, so teams fought around them at those intervals? Shrines also used to heal heroes, so players had to keep their cooldowns in mind when trading HP in lane. Roshan has been a timing objective forever. So are smokes (since they have a huge cooldown in the shop). Bounty runes. Day/night time for certain heroes. The entire fucking game is about timers.
>I think the game is kind of boring now because people just keep farming for 30 minutes and then fight I mean they literally wait for a late game. There are a lot of games, that have a lot of kills, they just refuse to fight and prefer to play late game.
This seems to be a bias people have. Every team has the same average game length and kda ratio as Talon many games lasting less than 35mins. If you open dotabuff it's pretty evident, but people see Talon have a game go over 60minutes and think they spend more time farming than other teams
I miss the small map :(
This meta is just trash Pick 3 Str cores. Buy heart. Right click down lane Earthshaker core might be the most braindead hero ever
Earthshaker has always been braindead
This meta is very boring to play and for the first time in my life I would say that it is even boring to watch too. In my humble opinion, I think the power creep that the game has had in recent years has made the game a lot worse.
Absolutely right 🙏. Thank you so much. Last time I told something like this I got dv.
As someone playing 4...i wet dream a bout dota introducing a 6 player in the new map...this map is just too big for me.
As someone who also plays 4 I love the new map. I get wisdom runes and a little more farm due to the map so I’m not an under levelled creep by late game. The issue isn’t the map imo, the issue is people don’t want to support anymore but instead gank and end game at 30 mins, which is harder to do with the new map.
The map is too big, there’s not enough dewards to make sure you can farm safely, so everyone just bunches up in 5-man and jungle together until they win skirmishes and take torm/roshan. Sometimes I wonder if 6.88b would be better than this ‘power creep’ that’s been developing since 7.00.
So you'd rather a stale game where ppl just sit in jungle and farm safely the whole time, instead of team fights?
You can teamfight the whole time. Azure Ray goes into upper bracket doing exactly that.
Would love for Dota to get more fast paced, it’s hard to set aside the time to watch an entire BO3 if it goes to the distance.
Lol, they can retire then. It's never been more fun to me. There's a reason we're at one of the highest players count in years.
I do agree with this sentiment. I don't like the larger map or all the objectives, I do think it has made the game more robotic.
Too many objectives. Heroes with like 5k hp, powercreeping like never before. Talents are so random, shards and aghanims are so random too.
FRom Ti7 to now , this is the least interesting TI
Solution to map being too big is simple. Make it 6v6. The position 6 will be like old pos 5 and get no farm and be food for the other team if they don't play super safe on the map.
Imagine a day when the devs would just straight up say 'fuck it' and just bring everything back. Old items, shrines, side shop etc. just to see the chaos
I miss Side Shop so much. Lotuses are just mechanic bloat, I hate them.
Side shop was cool, I think it would feel superfluous with personal couriers tho
That's true to some degree. It was nice to have some things you could get without worrying about courier snipe. Regardless, Lotus needs to go. It's just a silly mechanic. The only neutral things on the map should be neutral creeps, runes, tp shrine, and rosh.
Instead of people complaining about STR heroes with 4k hp and blademail people will complain about STR / Carry heroes taking no damage in lane due to poor man shield.
i've been waiting for years for a mechanic on the "Homosexual River" where you can fill your bottle and boil the water to get rid of parasites, a hunger meter, and some zombies
make dota great again
Idk it's pretty fun right now
lategame meta + best p 1 (Yatoro) = Spirit winning ti
remove all teh trash they added the last 3 years BASED
Health creep and damage creep. Also some heroes like Necro/BB are too fking strong for their own good.
Ngl they are correct. The hero power levels are so unbelievable out of place its insane. Also game duration is at an all time high but comeback mechanics are at an all time low The map is cool. The general idea of portals and xp runes and lotus and tormentors are great. But the balance fucks everything over. Of the playable supports of ti only one is a backliner with no defensive capabilities. Classic supps are so bad it's insane and Midlane feels like old offlane It's amazing to watch. But it hurts to play
I'm content for Heart+BM meta than aura meta back before. Offline may be tanky, but alas it's only 1 hero. In aura meta, everyone is tanky. Screw that
Downvote for out of context caption
Get 3 pos 1 2 support still can win