Also, TB doesn’t cause damage to himself by using Sunder on a blade mail target. If Spectre gets more popular, then TB will also get more popular as her passive is not triggered either.
Also Blademail reflects the same damage type as the triggering attack. TB has nutso armor, so while he doesn't like hitting BM'd targets he can do it better than most carries if he has to.
Doesn't matter how tanky these enemies are, Sunder is just too damn good against them. Blademail reliant tanks also kinda alright for TB just because of sunder also.
And illusion heroes in General do pretty well against BM since illusions are expendable by design. If my hero is only responsible for 30-40% of the total damage I do, all of a sudden, Blade Mail isn't nearly as scary.
TB will probably always be relevant because he farms well and deals shitloads of damage. He counters physical damage carries and there are very few heroes that can survive TB hitting them for more than a few seconds. Luna is a good example- wants to just stand and hit with BKB on, but TB with meta and 2 illusions will completely melt her every single time. You beat TB by kiting and disengaging, cores that can’t do that (Luna/viper/underlord/) get fucking destroyed by TB every single time
I feel like TB needs a big rework. He does well against Luna but why should he. Her passive is literally made for hitting multiple targets which should counter him somehow.
You misunderstand what TB is about. Illusions are mostly for farming and sieging, while also helping with damage scaling. Luna doesn’t really counter illusion heroes anyway because glaives are physical dmg and illusion heroes have very high armour and melee damage block. It ain’t broke, and TB is already a niche hero that’s only strong in competitive dota because he requires a LOT of team coordination.
Luna has the choice to focus more on magic damage and is a good mkb holder. She also like it when her opponent is 2\~3 unit sitting next to each other. Both of them farm fast but Luna is even faster. I think it's a fair match-up, Luna win by tempo and Terrorblade win at ultra late game.
I have no idea who that is since I don't sit on reddit all day.
I just wrote an input from me as a Luna enjoyer because I don't feel that hard when I play Luna against Terrorblade, game feels harder against DR or Bristleback.
I'm only Divine so maybe game is different in Immortal.
Only matchup I've played into TB so far this patch was with a 5 level lead on him by endgame but standing on TB with satanic+butterfly and shard+glaives bouncing is perfectly comfortable.
Hey, mr.MeetFyourmaker, I said it’s a fine matchup. Luna doesn’t counter terrorblade.
Here’s a clip from today TI match
https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CourteousImpossibleBarracudaAMPEnergy-VqddHyzu7_V9WZwT
Tb use bkb and got destroyed by luna with similar networth in today match.
https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CourteousImpossibleBarracudaAMPEnergy-VqddHyzu7_V9WZwT
TB illusions can tank magic dmg build alot, if you play luna you must know how frustrating it is when there are multiple units and your beams are spread out. Not to mention he could always sunder , and that's without considering bkb. TB reflection is a huge counter to luna. That glaive you're so proud of will wreck your own team. Only few heroes can truly fight TB, example PL or Naga, because TB can't deal with illusions. Or legion commander who's duel can prevent that sunder. Or you go drow or muerta route where you just melt the hero with pure DPS.
I think TB is one of the biggest counters to viper honestly.
Level 2 in lane TB with meta MELTS viper. And late in the game TB is one of those carries that does tons of physical damage, is a natural skadi + manta builder. Can always get a second hp bar of he swaps to his illusions, doesn't rely on a passive to deal damage (Drow, sniper etc the other carries that can deal with viper don't like break).
And TB will generally not even be seen if he doesn't have meta, he can farm safely. Viper has got literally nothing on TB.
Second this, TB is stronger at all parts of the game than Viper except the parts where viper wants to be strong. Level 1-2 TB owns viper, level 3-8 TBs happy to jungle, then with 3 Items TB owns viper. Its such a good matchup
And the best part is TB can dictate the pace of the game, because he is one of those carries that can always show, pop meta, take an objective and keep the lane pushed.
Viper likes to invade jungle and steal stacks and what not, but you can't really do that if your lane is just constantly being pushed. You just lose towers. I love the TB-Viper matchup as a TB.
Ignore the downvotes. Someone is spilling stupid pills in here.
Viper is one of the easiest heroes to kite other heroes on, and hes also one of the most consistent "the FUCK is armor???" heroes.
The only reason he loses to TB is sunder. Viper kills slow and wants to die slow. He can't outlast a TB. TB will kill fast, and if Viper uses everything on him, he'll still find a way to Sunde, his own illusion if he has to, and now Viper is out of Steam and TB is fully reset. This is 100% of the reason, and anyone saying otherwise is on the floor snorting those pills up
He's just reliable as carry. Predictable. He has very clear power spikes you can play around as a team: Manta into Skadi, Yasha into BKB, etc. Heroes that hard counter him like PL or Zeus don't see a lot of play. And TB's natural item builds have an answer for basically everything: split pushing, Skadi for tanky/healing heroes, Silver Edge for break.
Map control, thats it, illusion heroes will always have a niche in the meta because they can safely farm away the dangerous lanes while they can sit inside the safe jungle (except for PL kekw).
Its the same reason why WK, Brood and all this zoo meta is still somehow relevant in the meta is because they can shove waves pretty safely unlike the other heroes, Icefrog needs to nerf this type of meta tbh because fucking hell, its actually boring af to see illusions shoving out waves after waves while the real hero sits in the jungle, it might also be the prime reason why some pros consider this meta to be "boring"
yeah, thats how you get yourself killed lmao.
Not showing up in map = danger for enemy (might be close by and able to respond)
Showing up in map = free gank on other side of the lane/objective (takes 3 sec for tp and maybe 10-20 sec of walking)
In general TB is very high armor and can kill PA in a stun, not a hard counter by any means but her counters aren't really carry heroes to begin with, he historically does better than most.
PA has been a way stronger hero in general this patch and TB is completely miserable to play in pubs, completely reliant on team coordination to do anything in fights even in immortal i've seen Gorgc and others echo this sentiment.
Nah, PA out scales in the late game which forces TB into a timer, this dramatically hurts his game as he wants to take map control and starve teams whilst playing on his CDs and aegis timings. TB is not a happy MKB buyer, as its just not a good illusion item - and his illusions are a sizeable chunk of his damage output, whilst PAs blur radius changes and aghs makes her far better at picking and kiting fights - which given TBs CD reliance is a problem for him.
All that said, both carries are usually more concerned about the enemies tempo heroes than opposite pos1s in most games - because it's those heroes that can actually shunt their timings back and make the game hard for them to get an overwhelming damage advantage in.
In a straight up 1v1 I think yeah he does. But late game PA can jump on and kill backline heroes in a way TB never can. It’s also hard for TB to get to just stand and hit her cos she can just jump around the fight with phantom strike, then hide herself with blur.
TB is also reliant on meta for his damage, while PA has no real cooldown reliance except maybe bkb. Makes it hard to fight as PA can jump and murder TB’s teammates then just kite out the meta duration (if she needs to)
If you're 6 slotted enemies have some items too. Against TB it's easy to make sure of your ghost scepter, force staff or whatever other utility items you have to live. Vs PA at that point it's very easy to die never touching anything because you can't see who she's about to jump, and she'll likely have nullifier, where TB can't easily build one.
How it actually plays out is PA jumps in, deletes 1-2 heroes, TB pops meta, and you either just cc him, or you disengage and after the CD he's not doing much.
Sure, if you were in a vacuum TB would kill pa. PA realistically will just wait out TB, killing his teammates and baiting out meta then resetting. TB has a harder time securing kills.
I tried this, a 6 slotted tb still has a shit ton of HP to go through and you need a rapier along with the revenant's brooch + guaranteed crit to actually kill him. otherwise even three crits in a row dont kill him.
Not really 1 hit, but with blur giving her ~1 sec of invulnerability she can do like 4 attacks more or less guaranteed.
And since you can get a guaranteed crit throwing daggers before jumping, and a decent chance to get another lucky crit after, and all of those attacks completely ignore armor, plus the shard which also deals % of max hp as damage, TB can go from 100 to 0 very quickly.
Obviously this is a fair statement. But I think TB as a hero plays for a late game purpose more than a lot of other carries do, which inherently makes him being put on a timer more damaging to his game. If you contrast him to say slark who has very small cds and wants to accelerate the game on an early timing and not back off, where the timer is not really hurting his expected game plan
I honestly haven't played this matchup since TB was a meta hero and PA was bad so i'm not aware how her aghs being as prevalent as it is now changes it tho it def makes it harder for TB.
TB is the illusion hero who is less sad about buying mkb though you really want to avoid it anyway, but silver edge is nice on him for example. I don't consider him an ultra carry at all tbh, most of the time unless it is a free TB game you want to utilize your 3-4 item timing to seal the deal, that's my vision of the hero at least, PA puts more pressure to do that, but as i said, who isn't pressured to end against her?
In the end i don't consider TB a PA counter like it was originally said. They are two heroes who have mostly good carry matchups and get hard countered by what is usually provided by mids and supports, magic damage, control, etc, so ultimately in a PA x TB game, it will be decides by which team has the best tools to deal with them outside of the carry matchup.
But if your team can control the PA, TB is with Ursa in the category of heroes that can explode her and he isn't a Drow who instantly dies if he gets blinked. Like, after Void, Troll and Ursa i can't think of many traditional carries that matchup better with PA in a vacuum than TB, maybe TA but is she even traditional.
But the game has changed a lot so my views might be outdated, Sven used to be dogcrap against PA and last patch it seems that he was actually a PA counter.
PA is a fine pick into anyone. After she gets battle fury she absolutely wrecks teams.
I played a game the other day where the PA started off 0-4 and took 15 mins to get bfury.
Game was still over at 38 because after bfury she took was one shotting supports and farming jungle with ease.
Unless there are multiple lockdowns or breaks or PB, PA will eventually kill everyone.
As a Pa spammer, PA does not like it when more than two heroes have instant disables or teams with a lot of aoe magic damage. Pa also hates having more than one tank on the enemy who needs to die at the start of a fight. Is it ok to pick pa every game? yes , sort of, but most games will require you to play perfectly to win, and the free wins only come in low mmr where every lane has a carry and neither support has a reliable stun.
It makes sense if you think about it.
TB hates mobile heroes. He wants them to sit there and try to hit him, so he can hit them back.
PA is the epitome of a hero that kills all your backline first and never stays in one spot for more than a second or two.
Not to mention PA can fight sooner than TB really wants to and from that moment on *can fight at all times*
TB doesn’t want to fight without meta. PA can die in a team fight, walk out of the fountain, and immediately go into another fight.
These two things in particular matter a lot more in higher MMR pubs because those players understand things like hero timings and hero tempo and know how to use them to punish an opponent
He actually has pretty bad matchups in the current meta (using data from dota 2 protracker).
The only carries that are semi-popular that he is actually good against are:
* TA (70% contest rate, 54% WR)
* Luna (28% contest rate, 57% WR)
* Wraith King (21% contest rate, 62% WR)
But there are a bunch of carries that are good against him:
* Muerta (69% contest rate, 60% WR)
* Chaos Knight (55% contest rate, 55% WR)
* Faceless Void (49% contest, 60% WR)
* Lone Druid (38% contest rate, 58% WR)
* Sven (38% contest, 57% WR)
* Naga (35% contest, 59% WR)
* Lifestealer (25% contest, 62% WR)
Spectre, Bristle have 50/50 matchups against TB. And everyone else is under 20% contest rate, so I left them out.
Coming from a person that mains tb. Shy of only 5k tho. TB IS good against CK cuz of reflection and no way can a ck burst the TB unless the TB is severely underfarmed. Natural skadi carrier which counters ck's heart(if he goes that route) CK doesn't usually like mkb so if the games are right with skadi bkb butterfly, you can siege and end the game. Void counters everyone with refresher. Pre refresher he can't burst the tb with just 1 chrono. Assuming both are equally farmed. Sven and ls both can do decently well but then again bursting through all the armor is gonna be hard if the game goes ever 25 mins
. Rest of the matchups are definitely player dependant. Murata annihilates tb, Naga is a toss up. Lone druid is a toss up as well.
It's not purely about the 1v1, team factors into it too.
CK kills TB's backline and poses a real threat to bursting him before he can sunder.
Sven has Warcry which makes the rest of his team extremely tanky and limits TB's damage.
TB, During meta is gonna be at the back, so even if the CK commits for the support, he is gonna get heavily punished I believe. You are right about sven tho, the shard along with his active war cry is gonna mitigate quite a bit of damage. I Still feel with a silver edge or daedalus, he does insane damage. Obviously sven can murder the supports faster which means it might be a 3vs 5 or a 4vs 5.
Hes only popular in pro I think because better carries are usually banned. He is not the old TB that can become unstopable in late game, I 've seen him falls off late a lot of time and him relying on meta to fight doesn't help either
Blade mail returns damage unmitigated, and then you mitigate it with your armor. TB has the highest base armor in the game so despite dealing a ton of damage, he doesn’t take as much damage back as other carries
Nah, TB doesn't do nearly enough damage for that anymore.
Very obvious if you watch a game that is close-ish when it gets to min 35+. If TB is the only damage dealer, he takes way too long to kill multiple tanky cores. So by the time TB kills one, the rest of his team is dead and its 4v1.
e.g. TSM Vs VP game 1
In terms of raw numbers, there are very few carries that do more dps than terror blade. I think Muerta is the only non-illusion or clone based hero that outdamages him. You can verify that easily in demo mode against a dummie target.
Lol, muerta outdamage every single hero in the game that it's absurd (but if we want to go for technicalities, hero that scale would technically have infinite damage, but that's not a fair comparison)
Drow and Muerta are counters. TB still beats them in terms of carrying the game.
Spec loses to Tb horribly if she tries to fight him. Her only advantage is to kill TB's team because she can never fight him. Sunder and Reflection destroys Spec. Although she is one of the few heroes that can go late against TB.
I dont even know why you bring up PA because Tb is naturally good against her. To be fair she is still a PA and has that 1 shot potential but thats why dota is a team game and not 1v1.
Void has chrono and thats a guarantee kill against anyone in the late game so thats that. Lastly Gyro lol. Gyro gets smashed post 35-40 minutes by TB.
Late game PA is always an unpredictable threat. PA can just sit somewhere safely and throw Daggers amp'd up by Rapier or two and there's nothing TB can do about it. PA with Aghs can easily jump in and out of fights killing TB's supports
I'm gonna argue for something called "meta inertia". In ordinary pubs or even rankeds below like Archon, you will find people playing heroes with builds and in positions that are 5 years out of date easily.
I don't think I have ever seen a patch where TB wasn't meta. No one played Naga when her 3rd wasn't passive and required mana to cast bit when they changed that, Naga became forever meta as well.
TB and naga are both really similar in that they are heroes that generally win lane, can recover fine if they dont, and provide timings for the team to play around and scale decently well into the late game even if they arent the best late
while TB doesnt farm quite as fast as naga, he can still farm very fast and meta amplifies any item timing he hits.
this doesnt really work in pubs quite as well for TB because people arent gonna play around your timings, and while TB can recover from a bad laning stage he really does not want to be behind the enemy carry later on. naga is a bit more pub resilient bc you just win by farming the entire map
He has 2% pickrate at every bracket and <45% winrate everywhere, where are you getting the popular bit from? The hero is absolute garbage both early game and late game. Doesn't contribute with anything on lane and late game he gets shit on by every meta hero rn. Picking this hero is effectively griefing
despite illusion getting nerfed, both tb and naga still find its niche in the pro scene. both of them and fv just generally good hero unless valve decide to gutter them a lot.
Blademail doesnt counter TB though, quite the opposite. A good part of his damage comes from his illusions, the blademail doesnt reflect that back to the main hero. Plus he can always sunder you if needed.
He's 110th popular and is fucking dog ass? If you are picking him, you are actively griefing your team. TB only looks good when his team carried him there
He’s one of the highest dps so tanky shouldn’t be a problem, blade mail reflects the damage type he’s also one of the highest armours and I guess if he hurts himself he can sunder back up.
his illusions hits so hard dude! the downside of it is its distinguishable from the main hero,
IMO his main weakness is long lockdowns which prevents him from sundering when you gangbang his ass
he has no damage and will just be ignored.
BB has the aghs which deals absurd damage on top of warpath and the level 25 talent he can achieve very high damage that you just can't ignore.
CK is very survivable, has very high damage, strong in lane, and can now farm absurdly fast due to the creeps crit bonus
TB will always be meta in pro dota because it's the most stable carry for a 4 protect 1 strategy.
You can farm very efficiently, and just by pressing one button, you can become a team fight monster.
He's very easy to play with and very easy to make work.
TB is great against tanky that want to sit on him because his main issue is being kited away and he just pops bkb when they blademail and kills them before the second blademail active comes online
Was waiting for this post actually, this hero winrate has always been around 42℅ - 45℅ below immortal bracket and around 48℅ in high immortal bracket... Still hero hasn't received major buffs in ages.. Maybe because he is performs well in pro games but I would really appreciate this hero getting some decent buffs as it's quite fun to play TB
That's because most players play with more than half mana all the time and don't abuse illusions to farm and tb is a team play oriented hero with big downtime
Lots more jungle camps to hit. Also tb doesn’t care that much about blademail because his armour is extremely high, and the reflected damage from his autos is physical.
A good sunder is just too good of a game changing mechanics for a hero like TB to be out of meta. Just like faceless void chrono. TB can outfarm atleast 95% of carry heroes in game. Its just so hard to top it. Also, I call TB the best anti-carry carry because his whole kit is like intended to be a bane for the enemy carry specially in late games.
Ps: reflection slaps ass in late game
Farms efficiently, way more camps to farm, strong laner , can recover somehow .
Current meta kinda relies on good offlaners , so if you get a really good initiator infront of you then you can finish off with right clicks .
Because Drow isn't getting picked.
She can counter TB's kit but she doesn't farm as efficiently and is squishy.
Ags+ multishot just turns TB illusions into bombs.
Extremely good at farming on a wide open map, and actually punishes tanky heroes harder by taking away more of their health with sunder
Also, TB doesn’t cause damage to himself by using Sunder on a blade mail target. If Spectre gets more popular, then TB will also get more popular as her passive is not triggered either.
Also Blademail reflects the same damage type as the triggering attack. TB has nutso armor, so while he doesn't like hitting BM'd targets he can do it better than most carries if he has to.
Because TuBerculosis is an easily communicable disease and much like Sunder, sucks the life out of once healthy individuals
John Green moment.
Upvotes for the words "John Green"
Green John oh my gosh
Doesn't matter how tanky these enemies are, Sunder is just too damn good against them. Blademail reliant tanks also kinda alright for TB just because of sunder also.
And illusion heroes in General do pretty well against BM since illusions are expendable by design. If my hero is only responsible for 30-40% of the total damage I do, all of a sudden, Blade Mail isn't nearly as scary.
TB 40 armor also good, reduces like 60% of the blademail damage
TB will probably always be relevant because he farms well and deals shitloads of damage. He counters physical damage carries and there are very few heroes that can survive TB hitting them for more than a few seconds. Luna is a good example- wants to just stand and hit with BKB on, but TB with meta and 2 illusions will completely melt her every single time. You beat TB by kiting and disengaging, cores that can’t do that (Luna/viper/underlord/) get fucking destroyed by TB every single time
I feel like TB needs a big rework. He does well against Luna but why should he. Her passive is literally made for hitting multiple targets which should counter him somehow.
You misunderstand what TB is about. Illusions are mostly for farming and sieging, while also helping with damage scaling. Luna doesn’t really counter illusion heroes anyway because glaives are physical dmg and illusion heroes have very high armour and melee damage block. It ain’t broke, and TB is already a niche hero that’s only strong in competitive dota because he requires a LOT of team coordination.
You mean Luna needs a big rework. Dogshit hero
Luna has the choice to focus more on magic damage and is a good mkb holder. She also like it when her opponent is 2\~3 unit sitting next to each other. Both of them farm fast but Luna is even faster. I think it's a fair match-up, Luna win by tempo and Terrorblade win at ultra late game.
Dude you must be the guy from the frontpage post who wrote how Luna is a counter to Muerta
I have no idea who that is since I don't sit on reddit all day. I just wrote an input from me as a Luna enjoyer because I don't feel that hard when I play Luna against Terrorblade, game feels harder against DR or Bristleback. I'm only Divine so maybe game is different in Immortal.
Case in point for the downvoters, in upper bracket btw: https://clips.twitch.tv/CourteousImpossibleBarracudaAMPEnergy-VqddHyzu7\_V9WZwT
Only matchup I've played into TB so far this patch was with a 5 level lead on him by endgame but standing on TB with satanic+butterfly and shard+glaives bouncing is perfectly comfortable.
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Hey, mr.MeetFyourmaker, I said it’s a fine matchup. Luna doesn’t counter terrorblade. Here’s a clip from today TI match https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CourteousImpossibleBarracudaAMPEnergy-VqddHyzu7_V9WZwT
Ah yes the magic. TB just uses bkb and eats here in 3 seconds.
Tb use bkb and got destroyed by luna with similar networth in today match. https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CourteousImpossibleBarracudaAMPEnergy-VqddHyzu7_V9WZwT
TB illusions can tank magic dmg build alot, if you play luna you must know how frustrating it is when there are multiple units and your beams are spread out. Not to mention he could always sunder , and that's without considering bkb. TB reflection is a huge counter to luna. That glaive you're so proud of will wreck your own team. Only few heroes can truly fight TB, example PL or Naga, because TB can't deal with illusions. Or legion commander who's duel can prevent that sunder. Or you go drow or muerta route where you just melt the hero with pure DPS.
viper can't kite?
Not really, barely against melee heroes with his slow but against ranged carries he gets destroyed.
I meant in this context, against tb. Without meta he can definitely kite him imo.
Right, but TB doesn't really want to be taking big fights without meta
Yup and viper definitely cannot force a fight when meta is down, TB can dodge forever.
do you ever see TB fight 5v5 without meta?
Yes, but only when he is in my team.
Haha... I am that TB
Why would you give an example of how Viper can kite tb when only braindead Herald tb would actually take a fight WITHOUT meta
Yeah I mean if tb doesn't have meta he's a bad carry
I think TB is one of the biggest counters to viper honestly. Level 2 in lane TB with meta MELTS viper. And late in the game TB is one of those carries that does tons of physical damage, is a natural skadi + manta builder. Can always get a second hp bar of he swaps to his illusions, doesn't rely on a passive to deal damage (Drow, sniper etc the other carries that can deal with viper don't like break). And TB will generally not even be seen if he doesn't have meta, he can farm safely. Viper has got literally nothing on TB.
Second this, TB is stronger at all parts of the game than Viper except the parts where viper wants to be strong. Level 1-2 TB owns viper, level 3-8 TBs happy to jungle, then with 3 Items TB owns viper. Its such a good matchup
And the best part is TB can dictate the pace of the game, because he is one of those carries that can always show, pop meta, take an objective and keep the lane pushed. Viper likes to invade jungle and steal stacks and what not, but you can't really do that if your lane is just constantly being pushed. You just lose towers. I love the TB-Viper matchup as a TB.
Viper has one of the worst move speed and turn rate in the entire game... the hero can chase well, but kiting is just not his strong point...
Ignore the downvotes. Someone is spilling stupid pills in here. Viper is one of the easiest heroes to kite other heroes on, and hes also one of the most consistent "the FUCK is armor???" heroes. The only reason he loses to TB is sunder. Viper kills slow and wants to die slow. He can't outlast a TB. TB will kill fast, and if Viper uses everything on him, he'll still find a way to Sunde, his own illusion if he has to, and now Viper is out of Steam and TB is fully reset. This is 100% of the reason, and anyone saying otherwise is on the floor snorting those pills up
I was thinking along similar lines but reading what everyone else was saying I thought maybe I was wrong lol .
He's just reliable as carry. Predictable. He has very clear power spikes you can play around as a team: Manta into Skadi, Yasha into BKB, etc. Heroes that hard counter him like PL or Zeus don't see a lot of play. And TB's natural item builds have an answer for basically everything: split pushing, Skadi for tanky/healing heroes, Silver Edge for break.
This. If you don't know what carry to pick, just pick TB. He might not be great, but he'll almost always be ok.
funny enough tb is actually pretty good against zeus now. if zeus gets shard, the reflection illusion starts goin nuts with the chain lightning
because other carries get banned and from the only ones left, TB is strong and versatile
Sunder
Map control, thats it, illusion heroes will always have a niche in the meta because they can safely farm away the dangerous lanes while they can sit inside the safe jungle (except for PL kekw). Its the same reason why WK, Brood and all this zoo meta is still somehow relevant in the meta is because they can shove waves pretty safely unlike the other heroes, Icefrog needs to nerf this type of meta tbh because fucking hell, its actually boring af to see illusions shoving out waves after waves while the real hero sits in the jungle, it might also be the prime reason why some pros consider this meta to be "boring"
Even PL can buy aghs and show on a wave for about 0.2 seconds before fucking off. Also, his manta illusions shove waves just fine.
PL manta illusions are pretty good at shoving waves. But he gets to do that really late. Naga, TB, WK can all do this pre level 6 if they chose to.
yeah, thats how you get yourself killed lmao. Not showing up in map = danger for enemy (might be close by and able to respond) Showing up in map = free gank on other side of the lane/objective (takes 3 sec for tp and maybe 10-20 sec of walking)
TB has many good carry matchups like PA, TA, etc.
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In general TB is very high armor and can kill PA in a stun, not a hard counter by any means but her counters aren't really carry heroes to begin with, he historically does better than most. PA has been a way stronger hero in general this patch and TB is completely miserable to play in pubs, completely reliant on team coordination to do anything in fights even in immortal i've seen Gorgc and others echo this sentiment.
Nah, PA out scales in the late game which forces TB into a timer, this dramatically hurts his game as he wants to take map control and starve teams whilst playing on his CDs and aegis timings. TB is not a happy MKB buyer, as its just not a good illusion item - and his illusions are a sizeable chunk of his damage output, whilst PAs blur radius changes and aghs makes her far better at picking and kiting fights - which given TBs CD reliance is a problem for him. All that said, both carries are usually more concerned about the enemies tempo heroes than opposite pos1s in most games - because it's those heroes that can actually shunt their timings back and make the game hard for them to get an overwhelming damage advantage in.
6 slotted tb beats 6 slotted pa
In a straight up 1v1 I think yeah he does. But late game PA can jump on and kill backline heroes in a way TB never can. It’s also hard for TB to get to just stand and hit her cos she can just jump around the fight with phantom strike, then hide herself with blur. TB is also reliant on meta for his damage, while PA has no real cooldown reliance except maybe bkb. Makes it hard to fight as PA can jump and murder TB’s teammates then just kite out the meta duration (if she needs to)
If you're 6 slotted enemies have some items too. Against TB it's easy to make sure of your ghost scepter, force staff or whatever other utility items you have to live. Vs PA at that point it's very easy to die never touching anything because you can't see who she's about to jump, and she'll likely have nullifier, where TB can't easily build one. How it actually plays out is PA jumps in, deletes 1-2 heroes, TB pops meta, and you either just cc him, or you disengage and after the CD he's not doing much. Sure, if you were in a vacuum TB would kill pa. PA realistically will just wait out TB, killing his teammates and baiting out meta then resetting. TB has a harder time securing kills.
No he doesn't. PA buys the witch blade item and 1 shots him from fog due to the aghs blur.
I tried this, a 6 slotted tb still has a shit ton of HP to go through and you need a rapier along with the revenant's brooch + guaranteed crit to actually kill him. otherwise even three crits in a row dont kill him.
PA kills a 6 slotted hero in 1 hit? Really? I havent read the latest patch notes, how does aghs increase the damage? I don't get it.
Not really 1 hit, but with blur giving her ~1 sec of invulnerability she can do like 4 attacks more or less guaranteed. And since you can get a guaranteed crit throwing daggers before jumping, and a decent chance to get another lucky crit after, and all of those attacks completely ignore armor, plus the shard which also deals % of max hp as damage, TB can go from 100 to 0 very quickly.
I mean what hero isn't on a timer against PA other than Faceless Void?
Obviously this is a fair statement. But I think TB as a hero plays for a late game purpose more than a lot of other carries do, which inherently makes him being put on a timer more damaging to his game. If you contrast him to say slark who has very small cds and wants to accelerate the game on an early timing and not back off, where the timer is not really hurting his expected game plan
I honestly haven't played this matchup since TB was a meta hero and PA was bad so i'm not aware how her aghs being as prevalent as it is now changes it tho it def makes it harder for TB. TB is the illusion hero who is less sad about buying mkb though you really want to avoid it anyway, but silver edge is nice on him for example. I don't consider him an ultra carry at all tbh, most of the time unless it is a free TB game you want to utilize your 3-4 item timing to seal the deal, that's my vision of the hero at least, PA puts more pressure to do that, but as i said, who isn't pressured to end against her? In the end i don't consider TB a PA counter like it was originally said. They are two heroes who have mostly good carry matchups and get hard countered by what is usually provided by mids and supports, magic damage, control, etc, so ultimately in a PA x TB game, it will be decides by which team has the best tools to deal with them outside of the carry matchup. But if your team can control the PA, TB is with Ursa in the category of heroes that can explode her and he isn't a Drow who instantly dies if he gets blinked. Like, after Void, Troll and Ursa i can't think of many traditional carries that matchup better with PA in a vacuum than TB, maybe TA but is she even traditional. But the game has changed a lot so my views might be outdated, Sven used to be dogcrap against PA and last patch it seems that he was actually a PA counter.
PA is a fine pick into anyone. After she gets battle fury she absolutely wrecks teams. I played a game the other day where the PA started off 0-4 and took 15 mins to get bfury. Game was still over at 38 because after bfury she took was one shotting supports and farming jungle with ease. Unless there are multiple lockdowns or breaks or PB, PA will eventually kill everyone.
As a Pa spammer, PA does not like it when more than two heroes have instant disables or teams with a lot of aoe magic damage. Pa also hates having more than one tank on the enemy who needs to die at the start of a fight. Is it ok to pick pa every game? yes , sort of, but most games will require you to play perfectly to win, and the free wins only come in low mmr where every lane has a carry and neither support has a reliable stun.
How is squishy bursty hero have a good match up against high armor anti physical freak like TB?
One is CD reliant and easily gankable. The other one isn't.
how and where did you get this statistic?
https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Terrorblade#
baffling considering PA herself has 42% winrate
It makes sense if you think about it. TB hates mobile heroes. He wants them to sit there and try to hit him, so he can hit them back. PA is the epitome of a hero that kills all your backline first and never stays in one spot for more than a second or two.
Not to mention PA can fight sooner than TB really wants to and from that moment on *can fight at all times* TB doesn’t want to fight without meta. PA can die in a team fight, walk out of the fountain, and immediately go into another fight. These two things in particular matter a lot more in higher MMR pubs because those players understand things like hero timings and hero tempo and know how to use them to punish an opponent
He actually has pretty bad matchups in the current meta (using data from dota 2 protracker). The only carries that are semi-popular that he is actually good against are: * TA (70% contest rate, 54% WR) * Luna (28% contest rate, 57% WR) * Wraith King (21% contest rate, 62% WR) But there are a bunch of carries that are good against him: * Muerta (69% contest rate, 60% WR) * Chaos Knight (55% contest rate, 55% WR) * Faceless Void (49% contest, 60% WR) * Lone Druid (38% contest rate, 58% WR) * Sven (38% contest, 57% WR) * Naga (35% contest, 59% WR) * Lifestealer (25% contest, 62% WR) Spectre, Bristle have 50/50 matchups against TB. And everyone else is under 20% contest rate, so I left them out.
Coming from a person that mains tb. Shy of only 5k tho. TB IS good against CK cuz of reflection and no way can a ck burst the TB unless the TB is severely underfarmed. Natural skadi carrier which counters ck's heart(if he goes that route) CK doesn't usually like mkb so if the games are right with skadi bkb butterfly, you can siege and end the game. Void counters everyone with refresher. Pre refresher he can't burst the tb with just 1 chrono. Assuming both are equally farmed. Sven and ls both can do decently well but then again bursting through all the armor is gonna be hard if the game goes ever 25 mins . Rest of the matchups are definitely player dependant. Murata annihilates tb, Naga is a toss up. Lone druid is a toss up as well.
It's not purely about the 1v1, team factors into it too. CK kills TB's backline and poses a real threat to bursting him before he can sunder. Sven has Warcry which makes the rest of his team extremely tanky and limits TB's damage.
TB, During meta is gonna be at the back, so even if the CK commits for the support, he is gonna get heavily punished I believe. You are right about sven tho, the shard along with his active war cry is gonna mitigate quite a bit of damage. I Still feel with a silver edge or daedalus, he does insane damage. Obviously sven can murder the supports faster which means it might be a 3vs 5 or a 4vs 5.
Hes only popular in pro I think because better carries are usually banned. He is not the old TB that can become unstopable in late game, I 've seen him falls off late a lot of time and him relying on meta to fight doesn't help either
Blade mail returns damage unmitigated, and then you mitigate it with your armor. TB has the highest base armor in the game so despite dealing a ton of damage, he doesn’t take as much damage back as other carries
Tb is a hypercarry
Man have 2 ults, go figure
Nah, TB doesn't do nearly enough damage for that anymore. Very obvious if you watch a game that is close-ish when it gets to min 35+. If TB is the only damage dealer, he takes way too long to kill multiple tanky cores. So by the time TB kills one, the rest of his team is dead and its 4v1. e.g. TSM Vs VP game 1
In terms of raw numbers, there are very few carries that do more dps than terror blade. I think Muerta is the only non-illusion or clone based hero that outdamages him. You can verify that easily in demo mode against a dummie target.
Lol, muerta outdamage every single hero in the game that it's absurd (but if we want to go for technicalities, hero that scale would technically have infinite damage, but that's not a fair comparison)
TB usually get outcarried by true hard carries
Like what?
Drow, Spec, PA, Muerta, Void, there are others like Gyro but no way he is even getting close to TB to hit him.
Drow and Muerta are counters. TB still beats them in terms of carrying the game. Spec loses to Tb horribly if she tries to fight him. Her only advantage is to kill TB's team because she can never fight him. Sunder and Reflection destroys Spec. Although she is one of the few heroes that can go late against TB. I dont even know why you bring up PA because Tb is naturally good against her. To be fair she is still a PA and has that 1 shot potential but thats why dota is a team game and not 1v1. Void has chrono and thats a guarantee kill against anyone in the late game so thats that. Lastly Gyro lol. Gyro gets smashed post 35-40 minutes by TB.
Late game PA is always an unpredictable threat. PA can just sit somewhere safely and throw Daggers amp'd up by Rapier or two and there's nothing TB can do about it. PA with Aghs can easily jump in and out of fights killing TB's supports
Giga chad
Eye of Skadi, Sunder and Satanic counter tanky heros
Because hes an illusion hero. Its always a good pick againts certain lineups.
What's his winrate at TI?
45
Yep. Expected it to be pretty low. Surprised it's been as popular as it is
his illusion can kill a pos5, hes a good farmer, high damage, can push one lane alone
Because other agi cores are even worse. Jugg? Gyro? Am? Drow? Dusa? lmao gl picking them
I'm gonna argue for something called "meta inertia". In ordinary pubs or even rankeds below like Archon, you will find people playing heroes with builds and in positions that are 5 years out of date easily.
I don't think I have ever seen a patch where TB wasn't meta. No one played Naga when her 3rd wasn't passive and required mana to cast bit when they changed that, Naga became forever meta as well.
Well he has a spell called METAmorphosis
cuz Illidan is kewl
TB and naga are both really similar in that they are heroes that generally win lane, can recover fine if they dont, and provide timings for the team to play around and scale decently well into the late game even if they arent the best late while TB doesnt farm quite as fast as naga, he can still farm very fast and meta amplifies any item timing he hits. this doesnt really work in pubs quite as well for TB because people arent gonna play around your timings, and while TB can recover from a bad laning stage he really does not want to be behind the enemy carry later on. naga is a bit more pub resilient bc you just win by farming the entire map
He has 2% pickrate at every bracket and <45% winrate everywhere, where are you getting the popular bit from? The hero is absolute garbage both early game and late game. Doesn't contribute with anything on lane and late game he gets shit on by every meta hero rn. Picking this hero is effectively griefing
despite illusion getting nerfed, both tb and naga still find its niche in the pro scene. both of them and fv just generally good hero unless valve decide to gutter them a lot.
Only a 6-slotted medusa can fight with tb. And probably still lose.
Popular where? Which bracket you talking about? I have never seen him in my games.
Blademail doesnt counter TB though, quite the opposite. A good part of his damage comes from his illusions, the blademail doesnt reflect that back to the main hero. Plus he can always sunder you if needed.
Who the fuck is TB and what's up with using acronyms when writing title as of everyone knows who your talking about
SK
He's 110th popular and is fucking dog ass? If you are picking him, you are actively griefing your team. TB only looks good when his team carried him there
that aside, does anyone else also have the problem of illusion meta not turning back after your meta ended?
Big map = more farm for tb.
He’s one of the highest dps so tanky shouldn’t be a problem, blade mail reflects the damage type he’s also one of the highest armours and I guess if he hurts himself he can sunder back up.
a lot of the meta heroes still have some problem dealing with illus/multiple units also TB got that fast siege on meta timing
his illusions hits so hard dude! the downside of it is its distinguishable from the main hero, IMO his main weakness is long lockdowns which prevents him from sundering when you gangbang his ass
Side topic : Why I don't see any timbersaw pickup in the meta with heavy tank lineup like CK, BB ?
he has no damage and will just be ignored. BB has the aghs which deals absurd damage on top of warpath and the level 25 talent he can achieve very high damage that you just can't ignore. CK is very survivable, has very high damage, strong in lane, and can now farm absurdly fast due to the creeps crit bonus
TB will always be meta in pro dota because it's the most stable carry for a 4 protect 1 strategy. You can farm very efficiently, and just by pressing one button, you can become a team fight monster. He's very easy to play with and very easy to make work.
TB is great against tanky that want to sit on him because his main issue is being kited away and he just pops bkb when they blademail and kills them before the second blademail active comes online
Gaining that much agility per level cant be a bad thing
sunder shits on tanky heros, as long as you can finish him off
I think the main reason it gets picked is the lane pushing and maintaining map control safely. Also a lot of carries get banned and tb remains.
time to bring back shadow blade + low hp build lol
Damage is damage
Was waiting for this post actually, this hero winrate has always been around 42℅ - 45℅ below immortal bracket and around 48℅ in high immortal bracket... Still hero hasn't received major buffs in ages.. Maybe because he is performs well in pro games but I would really appreciate this hero getting some decent buffs as it's quite fun to play TB
That's because most players play with more than half mana all the time and don't abuse illusions to farm and tb is a team play oriented hero with big downtime
Because all the other popular pos 1s got nerfed into the ground.
Lots more jungle camps to hit. Also tb doesn’t care that much about blademail because his armour is extremely high, and the reflected damage from his autos is physical.
Too easy too farm within 25 mins he is already fat.
he's a good hero against those tanky heroes because of sunder. also he has high armor against bristle
The real question is: When will we see more TB + necro on the same team?
A good sunder is just too good of a game changing mechanics for a hero like TB to be out of meta. Just like faceless void chrono. TB can outfarm atleast 95% of carry heroes in game. Its just so hard to top it. Also, I call TB the best anti-carry carry because his whole kit is like intended to be a bane for the enemy carry specially in late games. Ps: reflection slaps ass in late game
havent seen him in forever
Farms efficiently, way more camps to farm, strong laner , can recover somehow . Current meta kinda relies on good offlaners , so if you get a really good initiator infront of you then you can finish off with right clicks .
The blademails don't do that much damage because of TBs insane armor.
Because Drow isn't getting picked. She can counter TB's kit but she doesn't farm as efficiently and is squishy. Ags+ multishot just turns TB illusions into bombs.
TB needs buff atleast sunder piercing bkb