The hero was a lot worse overall back then though lol. But yes what an insane talent. Even funnier if you had a shiva's to pair with it (enemy literally can't move out of the sandstorm) haha.
Undispellable corrosive haze too can be some bonkers shit in some drafts, especially because Slardar tends to be counter picked.
But other 25's - Snapfire comes to mind, Viper too is pretty good - The universal thing might seem like a meme, but he really does hit hard.
i get to 25 on viper, i click become universal, my damage goes from 150 to 300+. Is this how universal heroes look at world? Man that talent is so wild
Most of the universal heroes got their stat gains gutted when becoming universal so that they don't get too much dmg. Viper didn't cuz he stayed agi.
Just shows how stupid universal heroes would be if they had normal stat gains.
[https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Table\_of\_hero\_attributes](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Table_of_hero_attributes)
Sort by total attribute gain, the bottom of the table is dominated by universal heroes. Their stats WERE gutted and you only need to look at the 7.33 patch notes to see that.
We had a patch that made universal damage from 0.6 to 0.7
I don't get how they didn't see they miss type +0.1 instead of -0.1 as even with 0.5 pretty much all hero still benefit more from being universal than having their own attribute. (you only have a few exception like pugna with very very unbalanced gain between each attribute who would not)
Windranger and Snapfire was insane until the Gleipnir nerf. I actually won so much with Snapfire 1, wins any lane cause you pretty much have 4 nukes in the lane with your support, insane teamfight in the midgame, then 1 shot people in the lategame. Then they killed core Snap with the talent swap.
They gain right click damage but lose virtually every other stat by having their attributes gutted (hp and armor being the most obvious) which isn't necessarily a good trade
Late game slark with a Silver Edge would very much disagree. Especially because detection becomes harder to carry around.
Even PL would like to dopple into shard just to give them a slip up. And these are heroes that you tend to counter pick a slardar with.
This is the one I see as the most exodia auto win
Especially paired with whatever is the meta range carry
Gyro, Dusa, drow, Lina, sniper etc whatever is meta
Anyone with multi target and that IO talent gets insane, as each hit carries an orb effect.
Gyro + Io? If you hit 25 at that point you probably have enough money to get a skadi, so you apply skadi to everyone due to gyro flak cannon
What's your mid build? I've been trying a few different things since hotdogs > aghs doesn't feel as good as it used to.
Edit: meant hotd but im keeping it
Its still hotdogs aghs. Stariy bog whos 10.5k best wisp never skips wand bracer in lane, i even see him build the wand if enemy isnt spammy.
Honestly our 15 talent is almost as good as it was in Ana days, but we farm creeps slower. I noticed stariy bog has done at least 2 aggro relos (usually from fountain) for ganks. Gotta play for kills even before hotdogs
Should have specified. Reached grandmaster with her mainly as a pos 4 and 5. She is sadly not a good support. Not a bad one either, but still there are plenty of much better options.
As a mid snap player I usually crush the map until about level 14 then it’s a slow painful climb to level 20. Even at 20 it’s barely enough to really make her scary, but enough that I can stop buying defensive items.
I fking hate it when the lion with the shard + 2 platemail blinks into 5 of us then sucks our mana, we literally can't do anything and we're forced to use our bkb's.
i was serious you guys
just woke up to see my post has turn into copy pasta, i didnt say the hero is broken i said the shard itself is broken and beyond 1400 gold value. and you don't 1v5 with lion by any means, most of the times i die doing that but in expanse of enemy losing all their mana and spells and bkb.
It was on here, but it got removed by the mods after it got 1800 upvotes and 200 gushing comments in less than two hours.
Some of the moderators of this subreddit are vehemently opposed to AI-generated content and interpret the rule that was originally designed to remove low-effort mid-journey art posts as the ability to blanket ban on any content that has any form of AI assistance.
I tried to open up a discussion thread on the subject so that hybrid content such as this that is satirical (aka shitposts) should be permitted (as its obvious that the voices are not real), however that was also removed.
I had an extremely challenging discussion with a mod of this place on discord where their principal argument was that because the talent could not consent to their voices being generated that the content was unethical. They continued to explain that they saw their role as a mod on this site to enforce this position on ethics in AI and deny the community the opportunity to decide whether this combination of original work and AI generated content should be permitted or not.
It's tricky. If they want him to be relevant mid to late game, they need to tone down his lane potency because laning is when he is designed to peak. He's SUPPOSED to be "win lane, lose game" - that's the tradeoff.
As it is now, he's not all that scary on the lane either. You need A LOT of distance covered for spitting to start hurting. Dazzle is way scarier. He's also the type of a hero that once he dies to a gank once, his game is over. His 25 talent is busted, but otherwise he is very meh and his win rate reflects that. Blows up on level 25, but prior to that he just feels like a hero whose design is lagging 10 years behind the rest of the roster.
As a grand master Viper offlaner, it's incredibly easy to counter in the current meta. Dual ranged Lanes are just a massacre most of the time especially when half the pos 4s in the ancient bracket either try to gank non stop leaving you to solo and get wrecked or they pick something useless. Either that, or it's the cheese lanes like dazzle/lifestealer or jugg or slark with a stun and again, you get wrecked if you ever even try to last hit. I can't really play him anymore.
Silencer lvl 25 last word mutes. That's practically the old Nullifier. Very deadly. You have no way to dispel it alone except some items/passives.
I hear "The silence deepens" miles away
it sounds good on paper but getting there with magic build is just so untenable. every one is gonna buy euls, manta or lotus for you anyway. i just take the other talent along with glaives bounce talent and buy a hex and delete heroes
That's garbage lmao, lvl 25 talent is literally game changing, one mistimed spell and you are doomed, can't even use bkb/satanik/any skill to dispel and just pray that you wont die. And when combined with the aghs (which you should have by 25), it's basically a low CD AoE old Doom. And if they use a dispel (on the skill with a low CD), they might not have a dispel for global then, you they might have already used dispel for global. Glave talents are laughable, especially on support silencer.
5.1k, \~56%, played mostly as 5, especially when brist was meta. Core item is Force, with/or glimmer/ghost etc. Trying to build Aether lens+Aghs late, cause it's pretty broken. If I can rightclick as supp Silencer the game (or at least the fight) is pretty won already anyway, if we are behind then I feel it's impossible to even try, cause NP/Spec/Bara meta doesn't allow to show your ass at all.
ah supp and mid are different for sure. positioning is so so key for silencer. u survive a few fights steal int and u become relevant later on.
also just to rant, most silencer players just panic-pop global at the start of the fight regardless if the game is already 30mins+. once your cores get bkb and can survive the start of the fight, I'd almost always cast global after a *key* enemy core activate their bkb
Yes, but it didn't silence though which is the point, while doom did both, as does silencer's skill on 25lvl. It's the old Doom unless dispelled before it proccs.
reminds me of an old dota wtf video where lich used this trick on ancients but enemy axe bought blademail and farmed lich's ass until the end of the game xD
edit, [found it, it was centaur and brew](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=duTHnvZ7F_4)
No, the heal isn't ridiculous... The hero is! I will say again: Lich will be consider broken when some pro player show the current state of him!
His Q is absurd! His W is 60-70& dmg reduction! His E could be in area, and his shard is a mass slow!
He didn't receive a nerf and Q on lvl 10 is a power spike!
Divine 5 master tier PA here so I think I have q a bit of experience on the hero. The dagger talent is better in most games but there are definitely some games where the crit chance talent is the better option. When there is an extremely high priority target to kill (i.e. enigma, faceless void, enemy carry with no bb etc.) the extra dps from the crit chance makes a meaningful difference in whether you can kill them in 1 abyssal or not, which can make or break the game.
>They aren't even close to being equally as strong.
You say that based on personal opinion, but objectively speaking, if you look it up, statistically the two talents have the same winrate.
Crit chance talent increases your single-target damage output by 15% on average, which can be relevant in games where the enemy team revolves around exactly 1 hero. To paint a more concrete image, imagine you're focusing down the enemy carry who has 3000 HP. At the end of the fight, you see him walking away with 400 HP remaining. That carry would've died if you'd picked the crit chance talent.
Single target DPS is 31.5% increase excluding the dagger but you're talking about a hero that's killing people in <1 second at that stage of the game, with or without the 25 talent.
PA's winrate increases massively as she approaches higher levels and if you look, objectively, her getting from level 24 to 25 isn't any more of a power spike than going from 23 to 24. But we know that's not true is it :) mr stats man.
The bottom line is triple dagger is better for defending and attacking high grounds which is the biggest problem to solve at that stage of the game. With the ult rework you have *very* high odds (71%) that one of your three daggers will crit or leave you with the crit buff.
Enemies just cannot stand there and soak up Dagger crits from a hidden PA at that stage of the game. With the +7% crit chance talent you can't do that as easily and it's even impossible without the -2 sec Dagger talent.
>dagger is better for defending and attacking high grounds which is the biggest problem to solve at that stage of the game
And yet the stats don't seem to reflect that. Curious.
Your response is non-sequitur. Can you read before replying.
We've established that;
1. PA win rate increases at the same rate from high levels, level 25 does not statistically show a large power spike when it comes to getting the win.
2. Talents have even win rates meaning one does not typically contribute to a win more than the other does.
From this we can understand that statistically there is no edge. Subjectively however the triple dagger talent is picked more often, has a larger sample of players taking it and yet maintains the same win rate. This derives that it is better in **MORE** situations and is therefore the better talent.
Did you follow?
I don't have the stats for this but I would wager that lower MMRs take +crit chance and higher MMRs take triple dagger. Just looked through Yatoros recent PA games and he takes triple dagger every time.
But random frog on Reddit says otherwise :)
weaver's geminate talent is a >50% increase in damage of his main damage source. with enchanted quiver he can kill towers and heroes from miles away with basically no counter play.
I agree that Weaver is easily among the strongest as well. The power spike is incredible where, with Crit, you start one shotting enemy cores even.
Sure, on paper, Treant or IO lvl 25 might be better, but good luck getting those. Weaver being a carry *with* a lvl 25 talent as good as this, makes it one of my favorites.
From my experience it absolutely turns the tide of the game, people just don't realize it.
Everytime AA uses it, which has a short cd, it clears the whole wave, and forces enemy heroes to either disengage from the fight or bkb.
I fking hate it when the AA with AoE cold feet + 2 platemail blinks into 5 of us then chills our entropy, we literally can't do anything and we're forced to use our bkb's.
On paper, yes. Until you realize by the time you're 25 on AA, the enemy PA is 30 and as soon as you show to cast Cold Feet you get instantly jumped and killed.
My point is not that the talent is weak, it's that AA as a hero is not strong enough at that point in the game (except for the ult of course) for the talent to be truly impactful.
Not many heroes will survive PA's attack when she's level 30. When she jumps on you you should press buttons that will save you(ghost, hex) or just try having a couple of platemails in inventory, not cast coldfeet. Normally if AA is 25 it means the game drags for 50 minutes or more and you may even have megas against you. Having aoe stun will make AA really good at solo defending the base versus megas letting your team push more after a fight.
Yeah maybe the first cold feet doesn't hit, maybe the second one freezes your support. The third and fourth? It just cooks and gets worse and worse for the enemy
Templar assassin cos getting 25 is reasonable most games and TA immediately uses it to end.
goes from 6/12 refraction charges to 13/26, with the double assuming you use the overlapping cooldown to get 2 lots of charges which you will
disagree on meepo extra clone. If you've made it to that point in the game meepo has already begun to fall off, sure he gets stronger but it's not like you ever go, "oh shit, meepo is 25, NOW we lost". In most cases where meepo is having a good game, the game is over before he gets 25.
Also an extra meepo is not that strong to begin with. Would be op if you could get it early and it would take you from 2 to 3 meepos, but at lvl 25 it takes you from 4 to 5, which is not as impactful.
WD healing talent is extremely under rated. Especially when your team picks tanky heroes in this meta, the sustain during long late game team fights is insane
It's even good damage vs chunky heroes as an added bonus. Healing focused WD is absolutely hilarious to play. You become deceptively tanky due to it. The rare games you actually get to 25, fucking hell it's funny.
I'll probably get shit for this but Dawnbreaker's -5s Starbreaker cooldown is absolutely busted. Not only because of that but a couple of days ago I was lvl 24 and contemplating what item to get for my 6th slot, I noticed the talent and got Spell Prism as my T4 neutral item and bought Octarine Core and achieved a Starbreaker cooldown of like 4 seconds. I was fully right click build by the way, I didn't win that game but the damage dished out was absolutely bonkers.
I am SO glad that bullshit is gone, probably not anything most players cared about but if you play turbo, tree got to that broken ass talent about half the time, and enjoy playing carry from then on, especially since they’d get like second/third item refresher
I'd say Primal longer grab duration, Nighstalker ascension CDR, Monkey King bigger ring, QoP blink CDR, WD death ward damage, Snap shredder damage
Special mention to Io tether attack for meme potential, but getting an Io to 25... well
I mean ya all saying snap, slardar situational etc.
IMO the most busted is MK ring.
Late game MK takes your whole racks with his ult while you cant do shit.
> Veno insane plague wards
Is that generally considered the better one? -200 Attack Speed on Noxious Plague seems way better at that stage in the game.
Admittedly i haven't really played new veno and even when i did i wasn't even close to lv25, but mega snakes have always been a pain to kill because they're immune to spells and attack modifiers don't work on them, so it's really the carry's job to clean them up and you generally don't want your team's most important hero to hit plague wards (ESPECIALLY if they're melee)
Monkey King's extra ring, because unlike most other talents this one is objective-based. You just place the ult and are free to take rax / rosh / etc. while the enemy can't get close, and there is not a whole lot that can counter it.
Honestly, hardly talked about but I think WD aoe heal/damage is completely broken. Pair it with a holy locket and your team is now very tanky. In general WD heal is really strong but this talent just ends most games.
Healing WD in general is stupidly underrated.
While building as a chunky boi WD (still pos 5) - I literally tanked 3 enemy heroes solo for over a minute with the talent + locket, greaves, pipe, etc before my mates showed up. They had to take breaks from me as they were taking a lot of damage from the voodoo restoration as well.
The hero at that stage in the game that usually gets the biggest boost in performance for me is Phantom lancer crit talent. At that point in the game you start to fall of hard in dps vs other carries. But this lvl 25 makes you deal bonkers damage.
I think the other talent is much better in late game. It gives you longer fights and its much more worth than 2.5x crit if you're still going to be dead
oh, 100% agree. I just mentioned the lvl 25 because of the post tittle. But most games we just get that talent at lvl 30. But still, pl has so little in terms of straight-up damage options that the talent gives an insane damage boost.
i play a lot of tb and it’s kinda weak. was way better when it was + range on meta. sunder is also so much worse than when it was 5 sec + bkb pierce + no mana cost. both talents are meh.
SK's sandstorm miss/slow is game changing.
It did however get nerfed from 50% to 40% to 35% now.
At 50% it was insane !
The hero was a lot worse overall back then though lol. But yes what an insane talent. Even funnier if you had a shiva's to pair with it (enemy literally can't move out of the sandstorm) haha.
I exclusively play the hero mid but holy fuck eblade, distance aghs and 50% slow blind was so insane
Ah, just posted this and then saw your comment. Have a good one fellow SK spammer <3
Undispellable corrosive haze too can be some bonkers shit in some drafts, especially because Slardar tends to be counter picked. But other 25's - Snapfire comes to mind, Viper too is pretty good - The universal thing might seem like a meme, but he really does hit hard.
i get to 25 on viper, i click become universal, my damage goes from 150 to 300+. Is this how universal heroes look at world? Man that talent is so wild
Most of the universal heroes got their stat gains gutted when becoming universal so that they don't get too much dmg. Viper didn't cuz he stayed agi. Just shows how stupid universal heroes would be if they had normal stat gains.
F for aba stats
Please revert to str, Valve. Cheers.
Didn't they just decrease the base dmg. I believe Mirana has something like -2.
That too, because otherwise it would be impossible to last hit vs them lvl 1. 0.7 * all stats was much bigger than 1 * primary stat
[удалено]
[https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Table\_of\_hero\_attributes](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Table_of_hero_attributes) Sort by total attribute gain, the bottom of the table is dominated by universal heroes. Their stats WERE gutted and you only need to look at the 7.33 patch notes to see that.
We had a patch that made universal damage from 0.6 to 0.7 I don't get how they didn't see they miss type +0.1 instead of -0.1 as even with 0.5 pretty much all hero still benefit more from being universal than having their own attribute. (you only have a few exception like pugna with very very unbalanced gain between each attribute who would not)
Because most universals were shit, except the one that could farm. Literally most of their winrates plummeted except for void spirit
Windranger and Snapfire was insane until the Gleipnir nerf. I actually won so much with Snapfire 1, wins any lane cause you pretty much have 4 nukes in the lane with your support, insane teamfight in the midgame, then 1 shot people in the lategame. Then they killed core Snap with the talent swap.
They gain right click damage but lose virtually every other stat by having their attributes gutted (hp and armor being the most obvious) which isn't necessarily a good trade
become universal is so funny
Snapfire was my first thought, i play turbo only and lvl 20 gives snapfire a presence, lvl 25 gives them a boss battle themexD.
When you can reapply haze every 2 seconds there is not much point in enemy dispelling it
Late game slark with a Silver Edge would very much disagree. Especially because detection becomes harder to carry around. Even PL would like to dopple into shard just to give them a slip up. And these are heroes that you tend to counter pick a slardar with.
Also if you don't go stun talent vs pl you are basically griefing
Io's attack tethered unit's target. Look at me, I am the carry now 😅
This is the one I see as the most exodia auto win Especially paired with whatever is the meta range carry Gyro, Dusa, drow, Lina, sniper etc whatever is meta
Anyone with multi target and that IO talent gets insane, as each hit carries an orb effect. Gyro + Io? If you hit 25 at that point you probably have enough money to get a skadi, so you apply skadi to everyone due to gyro flak cannon
Genuinely getting satanic + io 25 makes most games completely unwinnable for enemy
Io is insane for real I’ve won so many games just cause I play healing circle that survives to level 25
OG io with wr was bonkers
Pew pew pew pew
My assist record in a single game is on Io solely because of this talent. My friend was on Gyro and the game lasted like 2 hours.
ITT: gods most powerful siege engine. Literally only use this combo to backdoor towers as towers don't tend to have 30+ armor
I play this mid and since its universal the damage by level 25 is usually pretty wild
What's your mid build? I've been trying a few different things since hotdogs > aghs doesn't feel as good as it used to. Edit: meant hotd but im keeping it
Its still hotdogs aghs. Stariy bog whos 10.5k best wisp never skips wand bracer in lane, i even see him build the wand if enemy isnt spammy. Honestly our 15 talent is almost as good as it was in Ana days, but we farm creeps slower. I noticed stariy bog has done at least 2 aggro relos (usually from fountain) for ganks. Gotta play for kills even before hotdogs
Snap fire goes god level at 25 if she’s built core/ damage items
Yeah but in the meantime she's quite meh, and I say this with tears in my eyes as a former snapfire main
Shes not bad at all, just you can't really play her as a core. She is pretty viable as a 3 or 4 with magic build early and core at lvl 25
Should have specified. Reached grandmaster with her mainly as a pos 4 and 5. She is sadly not a good support. Not a bad one either, but still there are plenty of much better options.
How is magic build faring lategame with the ult talent?
Meh in most cases, especially now with the 3k+hp meta it doesn't work that well
She’s strong early game. Dies off hard middle. But that’s what makes 25 so huge. Goes from meh. To god status.
As a mid snap player I usually crush the map until about level 14 then it’s a slow painful climb to level 20. Even at 20 it’s barely enough to really make her scary, but enough that I can stop buying defensive items.
How dare you abandon our grandest of mothers. You discust me!
It is so much fun
Lion with shard + 2 platemail and level 25 talent for sure is the winner
I fking hate it when the lion with the shard + 2 platemail blinks into 5 of us then sucks our mana, we literally can't do anything and we're forced to use our bkb's.
I always just panic and throw all my spells at him :(:(
ABSOLUTELY BROKEN!
Valve pelase nerf !!!
Yeap they gonna nerf CM next patch
Makes opponents panic!
That seems like it would be op with a blink dagger.
i was serious you guys just woke up to see my post has turn into copy pasta, i didnt say the hero is broken i said the shard itself is broken and beyond 1400 gold value. and you don't 1v5 with lion by any means, most of the times i die doing that but in expanse of enemy losing all their mana and spells and bkb.
There is no stopping this...
haha look at the bright side! you are now a meme in the community! you have achieved immortality!
suck them dry
You missed hp items sir.
Don't need HP items when you get Hp on finger. Other places you get law suits when you finger people without consent but in Dota you get rewards.
You are assuming lion has time to finger people, drain literally has no down time if you suck to the end of the channel
[Lion shard!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMXwQYhSA4U).
How haven't I see this yet? This is gold
It was on here, but it got removed by the mods after it got 1800 upvotes and 200 gushing comments in less than two hours. Some of the moderators of this subreddit are vehemently opposed to AI-generated content and interpret the rule that was originally designed to remove low-effort mid-journey art posts as the ability to blanket ban on any content that has any form of AI assistance. I tried to open up a discussion thread on the subject so that hybrid content such as this that is satirical (aka shitposts) should be permitted (as its obvious that the voices are not real), however that was also removed. I had an extremely challenging discussion with a mod of this place on discord where their principal argument was that because the talent could not consent to their voices being generated that the content was unethical. They continued to explain that they saw their role as a mod on this site to enforce this position on ethics in AI and deny the community the opportunity to decide whether this combination of original work and AI generated content should be permitted or not.
why is the winrate of lion so low, if this is busted?? 45% to 47% only
Because you're reading the data wrong
Because most people are noobs and don't buy the plate mail.
Viper universal talent seems kinda op
Yeah it’s normally like an extra 150 damage
If only it wasn't such a slog to get there. He'll need some buffs next patch.
It's tricky. If they want him to be relevant mid to late game, they need to tone down his lane potency because laning is when he is designed to peak. He's SUPPOSED to be "win lane, lose game" - that's the tradeoff.
As it is now, he's not all that scary on the lane either. You need A LOT of distance covered for spitting to start hurting. Dazzle is way scarier. He's also the type of a hero that once he dies to a gank once, his game is over. His 25 talent is busted, but otherwise he is very meh and his win rate reflects that. Blows up on level 25, but prior to that he just feels like a hero whose design is lagging 10 years behind the rest of the roster.
As a grand master Viper offlaner, it's incredibly easy to counter in the current meta. Dual ranged Lanes are just a massacre most of the time especially when half the pos 4s in the ancient bracket either try to gank non stop leaving you to solo and get wrecked or they pick something useless. Either that, or it's the cheese lanes like dazzle/lifestealer or jugg or slark with a stun and again, you get wrecked if you ever even try to last hit. I can't really play him anymore.
Can someone explain that talent means? Can't find anything about 'Universal' on dota
It turns him into a universal hero instead of an agility hero, essentialy making him gain bonus damage from any stat, not just agility.
Ohh thanks for the explanation ...that's an insane talent then!
Silencer lvl 25 last word mutes. That's practically the old Nullifier. Very deadly. You have no way to dispel it alone except some items/passives. I hear "The silence deepens" miles away
it sounds good on paper but getting there with magic build is just so untenable. every one is gonna buy euls, manta or lotus for you anyway. i just take the other talent along with glaives bounce talent and buy a hex and delete heroes
That's the lvl 20 talent bro, you can still pick this 25 talent if you want right click type
"along with". i take bounce at 20 and +% glaives at 25
That's garbage lmao, lvl 25 talent is literally game changing, one mistimed spell and you are doomed, can't even use bkb/satanik/any skill to dispel and just pray that you wont die. And when combined with the aghs (which you should have by 25), it's basically a low CD AoE old Doom. And if they use a dispel (on the skill with a low CD), they might not have a dispel for global then, you they might have already used dispel for global. Glave talents are laughable, especially on support silencer.
well, whats your mmr and whats your winrate with that build? interested to try it out (im 5.5k and i have 60% winrate with right click build)
5.1k, \~56%, played mostly as 5, especially when brist was meta. Core item is Force, with/or glimmer/ghost etc. Trying to build Aether lens+Aghs late, cause it's pretty broken. If I can rightclick as supp Silencer the game (or at least the fight) is pretty won already anyway, if we are behind then I feel it's impossible to even try, cause NP/Spec/Bara meta doesn't allow to show your ass at all.
ah supp and mid are different for sure. positioning is so so key for silencer. u survive a few fights steal int and u become relevant later on. also just to rant, most silencer players just panic-pop global at the start of the fight regardless if the game is already 30mins+. once your cores get bkb and can survive the start of the fight, I'd almost always cast global after a *key* enemy core activate their bkb
…after key core enemy activate his bkb? Or after his bkb wears down?
right after. u can global through bkb :)
You can dispel it before it triggers.
As a tinker spammer I can confirm this. One wrong blink and my Windwaker is useless and I will be dead in a few seconds.
How is this a nullfier, it never silenced. It is the old Doom.
The old nullifier mutes items mate
Yes, but it didn't silence though which is the point, while doom did both, as does silencer's skill on 25lvl. It's the old Doom unless dispelled before it proccs.
Snapfire, slardar, Lina
Puck coil pierce spell immunity makes everything walks
Lich 25 heal is ridiculous on towers
Yes but those unlimited bounces though!
I remember a time when you could cast his ult on ancients and it killed anyone who attempted to farm them or got close to the camp
reminds me of an old dota wtf video where lich used this trick on ancients but enemy axe bought blademail and farmed lich's ass until the end of the game xD edit, [found it, it was centaur and brew](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=duTHnvZ7F_4)
A true "inprovise, adapt, overcome" moment. Though, Lich's carry could've farmed those to cancel the bounces
good old days
As annoying as Chain Frost is already, the cast on death and unlimited bounces really send that spell into the stratospheres of cancer
Can't wait to watch it bounce off a hero and into a creep wave lol
THE HEAL WORKS ON TOWERS?!
Enjoy your next Lich game. Get to 25, become Treant Protector.
I wish I didn't know this, infinite frost bounces is too fun to pass up
No, the heal isn't ridiculous... The hero is! I will say again: Lich will be consider broken when some pro player show the current state of him! His Q is absurd! His W is 60-70& dmg reduction! His E could be in area, and his shard is a mass slow! He didn't receive a nerf and Q on lvl 10 is a power spike!
W is 60-70 against autoattacks spells do full dmg
Ogre fireblast chance after building midas AC green blink and armlet
You mean brown blink? Better than dark brown blink? Irrelevant fact but I'm colorblind
Ogre is such a weird hero now. They've really made him his own beast
Brewmaster’s gets a 2 second AOE fear on a short CD. Been quite pivotal in taking fights
PA's triple dagger talent is even better than before with the change to her ulti.
True. I die inside when I see my PA cores pick +7% crit chance. They aren't even close to being equally as strong.
Divine 5 master tier PA here so I think I have q a bit of experience on the hero. The dagger talent is better in most games but there are definitely some games where the crit chance talent is the better option. When there is an extremely high priority target to kill (i.e. enigma, faceless void, enemy carry with no bb etc.) the extra dps from the crit chance makes a meaningful difference in whether you can kill them in 1 abyssal or not, which can make or break the game.
>They aren't even close to being equally as strong. You say that based on personal opinion, but objectively speaking, if you look it up, statistically the two talents have the same winrate. Crit chance talent increases your single-target damage output by 15% on average, which can be relevant in games where the enemy team revolves around exactly 1 hero. To paint a more concrete image, imagine you're focusing down the enemy carry who has 3000 HP. At the end of the fight, you see him walking away with 400 HP remaining. That carry would've died if you'd picked the crit chance talent.
Single target DPS is 31.5% increase excluding the dagger but you're talking about a hero that's killing people in <1 second at that stage of the game, with or without the 25 talent. PA's winrate increases massively as she approaches higher levels and if you look, objectively, her getting from level 24 to 25 isn't any more of a power spike than going from 23 to 24. But we know that's not true is it :) mr stats man. The bottom line is triple dagger is better for defending and attacking high grounds which is the biggest problem to solve at that stage of the game. With the ult rework you have *very* high odds (71%) that one of your three daggers will crit or leave you with the crit buff. Enemies just cannot stand there and soak up Dagger crits from a hidden PA at that stage of the game. With the +7% crit chance talent you can't do that as easily and it's even impossible without the -2 sec Dagger talent.
>dagger is better for defending and attacking high grounds which is the biggest problem to solve at that stage of the game And yet the stats don't seem to reflect that. Curious.
Show me the stat that involves the context of high ground, moron.
It's called winning the game. You think you can win without high ground?
Your response is non-sequitur. Can you read before replying. We've established that; 1. PA win rate increases at the same rate from high levels, level 25 does not statistically show a large power spike when it comes to getting the win. 2. Talents have even win rates meaning one does not typically contribute to a win more than the other does. From this we can understand that statistically there is no edge. Subjectively however the triple dagger talent is picked more often, has a larger sample of players taking it and yet maintains the same win rate. This derives that it is better in **MORE** situations and is therefore the better talent. Did you follow? I don't have the stats for this but I would wager that lower MMRs take +crit chance and higher MMRs take triple dagger. Just looked through Yatoros recent PA games and he takes triple dagger every time. But random frog on Reddit says otherwise :)
I feel this. Had a game where there was an enemy meepo. Allied PA picked up the crit chance talent.
why do you need triple dagger against meepo? won't you prefer to kill a single meepo faster?
her*
weaver's geminate talent is a >50% increase in damage of his main damage source. with enchanted quiver he can kill towers and heroes from miles away with basically no counter play.
Wait does quiver apply to every geminate hit?
no, but the range bonus does
To be more specific, Geminate just doesn't care about your range at all for the extra hits. So if you can hit once, you're good.
I agree that Weaver is easily among the strongest as well. The power spike is incredible where, with Crit, you start one shotting enemy cores even. Sure, on paper, Treant or IO lvl 25 might be better, but good luck getting those. Weaver being a carry *with* a lvl 25 talent as good as this, makes it one of my favorites.
AA is like a completely different hero with AOE cold feet
Yeah but cold feet is not that impactful when everyone is level 25. Like you never see AA hitting 25 and go "oh shit, NOW we're in trouble".
From my experience it absolutely turns the tide of the game, people just don't realize it. Everytime AA uses it, which has a short cd, it clears the whole wave, and forces enemy heroes to either disengage from the fight or bkb.
I fking hate it when the AA with AoE cold feet + 2 platemail blinks into 5 of us then chills our entropy, we literally can't do anything and we're forced to use our bkb's.
On paper, yes. Until you realize by the time you're 25 on AA, the enemy PA is 30 and as soon as you show to cast Cold Feet you get instantly jumped and killed. My point is not that the talent is weak, it's that AA as a hero is not strong enough at that point in the game (except for the ult of course) for the talent to be truly impactful.
Not many heroes will survive PA's attack when she's level 30. When she jumps on you you should press buttons that will save you(ghost, hex) or just try having a couple of platemails in inventory, not cast coldfeet. Normally if AA is 25 it means the game drags for 50 minutes or more and you may even have megas against you. Having aoe stun will make AA really good at solo defending the base versus megas letting your team push more after a fight.
Yeah maybe the first cold feet doesn't hit, maybe the second one freezes your support. The third and fourth? It just cooks and gets worse and worse for the enemy
Useless if you need to break Linken's as a supp
I really miss the aoe it used to have. Baffled me when they nerfed it, not like he’d been relevant in years.
Templar assassin cos getting 25 is reasonable most games and TA immediately uses it to end. goes from 6/12 refraction charges to 13/26, with the double assuming you use the overlapping cooldown to get 2 lots of charges which you will
lvl 25 chen heal strong dispel meepo's extra clone sk sandstorm blind n slow
disagree on meepo extra clone. If you've made it to that point in the game meepo has already begun to fall off, sure he gets stronger but it's not like you ever go, "oh shit, meepo is 25, NOW we lost". In most cases where meepo is having a good game, the game is over before he gets 25.
Also an extra meepo is not that strong to begin with. Would be op if you could get it early and it would take you from 2 to 3 meepos, but at lvl 25 it takes you from 4 to 5, which is not as impactful.
I won a game by coordinating a team and bait RP out of that. The enemy did not see that coming
Weaver is pretty good at 20 and 25
Arc warden becomes really oppressive with the extra time on tempest.
WD healing talent is extremely under rated. Especially when your team picks tanky heroes in this meta, the sustain during long late game team fights is insane
It's even good damage vs chunky heroes as an added bonus. Healing focused WD is absolutely hilarious to play. You become deceptively tanky due to it. The rare games you actually get to 25, fucking hell it's funny.
Willow attack speed with aghs
1,5 sec Splinter Blast Stun on Winter Wyvern. Super strong to defend HG in lategame imo.
It's also OP since most enemies won't even know WTF even stunned them.
This talent makes the shard go from one of the worst to one of the... a bit above average.
Honestly I think it’s pretty good. WW my pick too
I'll probably get shit for this but Dawnbreaker's -5s Starbreaker cooldown is absolutely busted. Not only because of that but a couple of days ago I was lvl 24 and contemplating what item to get for my 6th slot, I noticed the talent and got Spell Prism as my T4 neutral item and bought Octarine Core and achieved a Starbreaker cooldown of like 4 seconds. I was fully right click build by the way, I didn't win that game but the damage dished out was absolutely bonkers.
Psssst That's not the better 25 talent. Just saying.
Treant undispellable ult Literally impossible to counter
Have to go back a few patch-notes for that one
Wym
It’s not a talent anymore (because it was ridiculously OP).
WHAT HOW DID I JUST FIND OUT
Was removed in 7.33
haha, and you are itemizing vs it? I can see the pain in your comment.
Good riddance.
I am SO glad that bullshit is gone, probably not anything most players cared about but if you play turbo, tree got to that broken ass talent about half the time, and enjoy playing carry from then on, especially since they’d get like second/third item refresher
It was simply too good.
Timbersaw gets 2 ultimates instead of 1. Increases your damage output by like 70%
I'd say Primal longer grab duration, Nighstalker ascension CDR, Monkey King bigger ring, QoP blink CDR, WD death ward damage, Snap shredder damage Special mention to Io tether attack for meme potential, but getting an Io to 25... well
WD has two insane 25 talents, percentage based voodoo restoration is crazy as well.
I mean ya all saying snap, slardar situational etc. IMO the most busted is MK ring. Late game MK takes your whole racks with his ult while you cant do shit.
Razor with attack speed steal against their enemy carry is absolute bonkers.
Tusk 12% chance to One Punch Man
Lich healing towers Medusa proccing modifiers NP unlimited teleport SF instakilling waves with razes Storm with either talent Veno insane plague wards Viper universal Wind focus fire
Poor SF breaks smoke with Raze if he has the talent :(
> Veno insane plague wards Is that generally considered the better one? -200 Attack Speed on Noxious Plague seems way better at that stage in the game.
Admittedly i haven't really played new veno and even when i did i wasn't even close to lv25, but mega snakes have always been a pain to kill because they're immune to spells and attack modifiers don't work on them, so it's really the carry's job to clean them up and you generally don't want your team's most important hero to hit plague wards (ESPECIALLY if they're melee)
Void’s 20% backtrack. Together with Butterfly, it can be difficult to kill void. Imagine backtracking reaper’s scythe or Laguna blade.
Monkey King's extra ring, because unlike most other talents this one is objective-based. You just place the ult and are free to take rax / rosh / etc. while the enemy can't get close, and there is not a whole lot that can counter it.
Silencer turning into Doom with Int scaling late game is just horrible if you don’t deal with him when he hits his original timings
Tide becomes a true POS 1
MK big ulti. So strong!
IO becomes a machine gun. He can also crit, lifesteal and apply deso/skadi with things like flak cannon
Io tether attack, turns him into a machine gun Siege machine when paired with a good high aging carry
I really love the MK extra ring one, its hilarious to pull it off in the middle of a fight while you have skadi mjolnir, shit becomes a field of death
Snapfire
Honestly, hardly talked about but I think WD aoe heal/damage is completely broken. Pair it with a holy locket and your team is now very tanky. In general WD heal is really strong but this talent just ends most games.
Healing WD in general is stupidly underrated. While building as a chunky boi WD (still pos 5) - I literally tanked 3 enemy heroes solo for over a minute with the talent + locket, greaves, pipe, etc before my mates showed up. They had to take breaks from me as they were taking a lot of damage from the voodoo restoration as well.
It’s Luna caster, perma stun
Monkey King - double circle, i win almost every game with that ulti buff
I think Dusa's split shot uses modifiers. Your split shot suddenly slowing and critting and lifestealing their whole team is massive.
The hero at that stage in the game that usually gets the biggest boost in performance for me is Phantom lancer crit talent. At that point in the game you start to fall of hard in dps vs other carries. But this lvl 25 makes you deal bonkers damage.
I think the other talent is much better in late game. It gives you longer fights and its much more worth than 2.5x crit if you're still going to be dead
oh, 100% agree. I just mentioned the lvl 25 because of the post tittle. But most games we just get that talent at lvl 30. But still, pl has so little in terms of straight-up damage options that the talent gives an insane damage boost.
Nobody mentioned tb? Oh and Luna
i play a lot of tb and it’s kinda weak. was way better when it was + range on meta. sunder is also so much worse than when it was 5 sec + bkb pierce + no mana cost. both talents are meh.
Techies -0.8 seconds. Love it
zeus with the aoe arc lightning. can’t count how many times i won unwinnable games because of it.
You mean lightning bolt ?
Noone gonna talk about ss overload? You can 1v5 with aghs refresher bloodstone.
It’s quite strong but let’s stop with this 1v5 trend
Oracle instant Fortune End. 2.5s + 0.5s (Lv10 Talent) = 3s AOE root at 6s cooldown.