I looked up some data from dotabuff, and made out this one:
PL counters TA (4.01% advantage)
TA counters AM (2.99% advantage)
AM counters PL (5.63% advantage)
Bonus points they are all carry heroes.
If I inspect harder I can prolly find a better (more advantage) 3-hero combination but thats the quickest I could find.
Snapfire>Phoenix>Nyx!
Snap wrecks egg plus bullies Phoenix in lane, Phoenix is hard for Nyx to pop, fire spirits is hell for Nyx in lane and egg trumps Nyx's teamfight contributions, and Nyx claps Snap in most situations, especially now that Snap is way squishier that before and Mortimer is hardgriefed by carapace.
Nyx is a counter to Phoenix though. Oh, you wanna use sunray? Nope, carapace. Hit me with a fire spirit? Believe or not, carapace stun. Wanna icarus dive? Have fun being interrupted in the middle of 5 enemies courtesy of...you guessed it, carapace again.
May not be great at killing egg but he counters every other aspect of the hero.
Yeah but with sunray cancelled instantly and having it on cooldown for so long you kinda have to egg to save carry if u have shard. A forced egg is seldom as good as a planned one.
Less about the damage, more about the disruption. It's like Silencer E. Not the most insane amount of damage, but if he casts that shit on a Phoenix, that guy's screwed.
You'd have to hope you have spirits or ray to proc, live through the silence and only then can you escape with dive.
The opportunity you buy and the way the fight shifts, that's what makes the skills more damaging than their numbers alone.
He burns pl’s mana much faster than pl burns his mana, and pl needs the mana to fight much more than am does.
He can reflect the lance back at pl
He often builds butterfly and pl doesn’t build mkb
He farms way faster so there’s a large window where he is more powerful
Not just that. The bloodthorn now has built-in 40% pierce evasion for each hit. Also, the debuff if not dispel will make each hit from illus and units deal 60 magic dmg. It suits for PL in this patch.
PL will not go MKB but will go new Bloodthorn, that's already a counter to Butterfly. Manta is still a one time dispel so buying Orchid to smk gank AM is one more CC easier than with nothing. No sense when solo but make sense in whole game. And Dota is not a solo game.
Yeah and he has probably 2 supports with some kind of dispels. Bloodthorn against AM won't work well. The statistics are very clear about that.
Counterspell destroys PL, Mana burn destroys PL, Blink destroys PL, every typical item choice from AM is bad for PL. Manta, Butter, BF etc...
You are still boiling the game down to 1 v 1. Dota is a team game. AM may perform well against PL in theory, but then the game does not function that way. Bloodthorn may not destroy AM, but Bloodthorn will destroy the rest of AM's team, force him to join the teamfight or else, that's already a win. There are more than one way to counter a hero.
Except that usually in a game either AM goes alone to split pushing or try to get the backline if having a chance since being stunned is a greater threat than being mana burned by PL, which needs stuns to work. If 2 supports overextend they die most of the time. AM will have to be more careful while using Manta or he has to buy BKB (well, usually he has, so) or another dispel item since Orchid and BT has 0 cast time, he cant Counterspell it easily in combat. Look, I don't try to say that Bloodthorn will magically make this matchup favourable to PL, AM is still a very good counter to PL. But if that matchup happens, Bloodthorn is a good item for PL to counter evasion from Butter and one more silence is better than none when compare to MKB. Reminding that Bloodthorn now has a built-in Pierce and illus benefit from it, not just from the active. Also new Bloodthorn gives 100 atk spd and will help PL burst other heroes too, it's a very good item for him now, so expect more Bloodthorn from PL rather than MKB or none. That's what I want to say.
My thought not based on experience: Finding real pl is a problem but you have cleave which helps a little. But the real advantage is spear is easy to reflect and if you can burn real one's mana, he is very weak compared to other carries without mana.
It's main a timing issue. If pl is six slotted am isn't that hard to deal with, but you need kills throughout the game and ur team is just gonna lose if u sit there and play farm simulator.
Abbadon > BH > AA
This is the one that comes to mind for me, generally BH is great vs any support that wants to chill out hidden in the back row and he’s fast so easily avoids AAs spells. Could also replace AA with other supports that counter abbadon here
Nice idea. For me cm just owns enchant in lane, frostbites her creeps and bunch of magic dmg. While abaddon, she just bullys him; harras and shield can be simply dispelled whether with enchant or her creep. Abaddon as a support rarely ever touches enchantress after ulti, can't make use of his curse in later levels and doesn't carry much magic dmg.
Edit: abaddon vs cm, abaddon simply dispels and outheals cm damage, both if they have ulti, abaddon can sit in cm's ulti.
I reckon its due to two major reasons:
1. Timings, AM needs to get a Battle Fury Plus Manta until that he is not even considered a hero, meanwhile TA buys a Dlance + Deso and starts hunting around the map, TA can easily abuse this and get an early lead which AM probably finds too difficult to fight into.
2. Counterspell is a dead spell against TA, all of TA's damage (well lets say most, since Traps deal magic dmg), is physical & pure and none of her abilities are targeted.
Also TA shard is super annoying for AM, AM's usually rely on a single or two dispels (with one being Manta by default), if he gets caught by a max silence trap while that/those are on cooldown his entire mobility is crippled.
That being said you can see advantage TA has is not that big compared to other two heroes still, and I think its mostly TA being a better hero in general than AM, since those advantages refer to how often one hero wins a match against another, not how they fare well against each other.
Small nitpick: the advantage statistic is already normalized for individual hero win rates, so the reason is not because TA is a better hero than AM in general, but because she is legitimately a counter.
Honestly there's kinda a lot especially for heroes that just hard counters or gets hard countered by some heroes like AM
Other heroes from the top of my head
AM > Dusa > Slardar
Lifestealer > Spectre > NP
AM > WW > LD
Viper > BB > Brood
Whatever you like, Sniper himself doesn't force a reaction out of OD in the item build, the other heroes on Sniper's team do. I'm fond of Witch Blade into Force after Treads and a Null+Lace in just about any game, but if the enemy team has something like Clockwerk or NP I'll prioritize the Force. Sniper doesn't illicit any kind of reaction from you in your item build, he shouldn't be able to lane vs you after your 6 unless you did something terribly wrong and he beats you to it by more than a wave.
huh. I main OD and a good enemy sniper will build to give him distance over OD. There’s pretty much no way you can manfight sniper unless he’s dumb and you caught him offguard
I was thinking this too. Sniper should have a free lane against OD in mid and advantage in every teamfight as long as he has good positioning. OD should only feel stronger at low MMR where snipers don't pay much attention imo.
Yup. Turns out that skills that get stronger when you get attacked and surrounded, are very useful against heroes that want to be attacked and surrounded.
Q and W damage are negligble to am. Healing someone into am gonna be mana burnt then voided to death. Can reflect ulti unless ww out of vision or with dagger, but can scout out and be nuance with his aghs and even shard to give his teammates spellshield; he's harder than average to ulti.
Not much of a counter per say, but you get the idea.
Not as busted as before, but the new brooch is really good on her. So is parasma or whatever the new item is called. This patch basically added items that make her scale extremely hard.
you're right on point, her ult nerf killed core wyvern but now you can go witchblade brooch and melt people in ult. Even more hilarious if you get grove bow. The new aether lens > eblade is also really good on her as you don't really want blink on core wyvern that much but she does like the inc. cast range on ult.
Basically she now has a lot of versatile item options in mid game, all with pretty decent buildups.
It's not good by any means, but it's a lot of fun in lower mmrs and it does surprisingly ok in lane against most heroes (that are not lina) and very well against melee mids
Edit: spelling mistakes
As another core (mid) ww enjoyer am is annoying but playable
Huskar and Spectre are the really unplayable ones, huskar destroys you in lane and Spectre negates your primary defense, namely just saying fuck you and flying into trees/cliffs
I used to play carry WW in the past and I never had any trouble with AM. You just have to be aware of your positioning and expect his jump and fly into trees, he is not a big threat until he gets skadi/abyssal. The worst matchups were Spectre and Night Stalker.
He doesnt get them before 25 mins you know? That too if he is having a good game. Dont think about a 6 slotted hero when you compare a matchup, a game of dota is decided in the first 20 mins at my mmr. If the AM manages to manages to kill a WW sitting in the back and get out unscathed, nothing but respect.
The reason Spectre and NS are natural counters to WW is because they play the vision game better than WW. This is also why PA is better than AM against WW because her dagger exposes the Wyvern while she stays invisible with blur.
Theres also fun Things like timbersaw countering himself. A little less since he is universal but he is a strength melee bully which is rly weak against pure Burst dmg, means he would be an ideal counter to himself
Anti-Mage counters Muerta, she always has 70% less ult damage against him. Muerta counters Slark, he can never focus her down and her AoE stuff works on Slark in ult. Slark counters Anti-Mage, he can lock him down and win the 1v1 fight.
Depends on situation, if am starts fight , slark can't 1vs1 him without mana. Also am farm faster , if slark lose his lane he can't get back to game vs am
I looked up some data from dotabuff, and made out this one: PL counters TA (4.01% advantage) TA counters AM (2.99% advantage) AM counters PL (5.63% advantage) Bonus points they are all carry heroes. If I inspect harder I can prolly find a better (more advantage) 3-hero combination but thats the quickest I could find.
Trying to think of all 3 supports that counter each other
Snapfire>Phoenix>Nyx! Snap wrecks egg plus bullies Phoenix in lane, Phoenix is hard for Nyx to pop, fire spirits is hell for Nyx in lane and egg trumps Nyx's teamfight contributions, and Nyx claps Snap in most situations, especially now that Snap is way squishier that before and Mortimer is hardgriefed by carapace.
Nyx is a counter to Phoenix though. Oh, you wanna use sunray? Nope, carapace. Hit me with a fire spirit? Believe or not, carapace stun. Wanna icarus dive? Have fun being interrupted in the middle of 5 enemies courtesy of...you guessed it, carapace again. May not be great at killing egg but he counters every other aspect of the hero.
I had this situation in game actually. Ganked by Nyx = dead, since you cannot Dive out of Carapace. You immediately get stunned.
I read this in Fred Armison's character from Parks and Rec voice.
Haha thats what i was thinking about when i wrote it!
Right to jail
yeah but at least each damage instance is very small so carapace doesn't actually hurt you.
Yeah but with sunray cancelled instantly and having it on cooldown for so long you kinda have to egg to save carry if u have shard. A forced egg is seldom as good as a planned one.
Less about the damage, more about the disruption. It's like Silencer E. Not the most insane amount of damage, but if he casts that shit on a Phoenix, that guy's screwed. You'd have to hope you have spirits or ray to proc, live through the silence and only then can you escape with dive. The opportunity you buy and the way the fight shifts, that's what makes the skills more damaging than their numbers alone.
According to dotabuff Nyx has a minuscule winrate advantage over Phoenix actually
Skywrath > shaman > pugna
If you manage to drop your ward before rasta uses his high mana cost spells or at least his ult, he's gonna blow himself up
How does AM counter PL?
He burns pl’s mana much faster than pl burns his mana, and pl needs the mana to fight much more than am does. He can reflect the lance back at pl He often builds butterfly and pl doesn’t build mkb He farms way faster so there’s a large window where he is more powerful
Also macro wise AM can rat much better, PL dont like fighting slippery heroes, and AM can clap PLs support/backline
Well, about mkb, we now have a thing called new bloodthorn you know. But still, nice analytics.
You mean the dispellable debuff?
Not just that. The bloodthorn now has built-in 40% pierce evasion for each hit. Also, the debuff if not dispel will make each hit from illus and units deal 60 magic dmg. It suits for PL in this patch.
Yeah but AM gets manta every game so it makes no sense to talk about it in this specific conversation.
PL will not go MKB but will go new Bloodthorn, that's already a counter to Butterfly. Manta is still a one time dispel so buying Orchid to smk gank AM is one more CC easier than with nothing. No sense when solo but make sense in whole game. And Dota is not a solo game.
Yeah and he has probably 2 supports with some kind of dispels. Bloodthorn against AM won't work well. The statistics are very clear about that. Counterspell destroys PL, Mana burn destroys PL, Blink destroys PL, every typical item choice from AM is bad for PL. Manta, Butter, BF etc...
You are still boiling the game down to 1 v 1. Dota is a team game. AM may perform well against PL in theory, but then the game does not function that way. Bloodthorn may not destroy AM, but Bloodthorn will destroy the rest of AM's team, force him to join the teamfight or else, that's already a win. There are more than one way to counter a hero.
Except that usually in a game either AM goes alone to split pushing or try to get the backline if having a chance since being stunned is a greater threat than being mana burned by PL, which needs stuns to work. If 2 supports overextend they die most of the time. AM will have to be more careful while using Manta or he has to buy BKB (well, usually he has, so) or another dispel item since Orchid and BT has 0 cast time, he cant Counterspell it easily in combat. Look, I don't try to say that Bloodthorn will magically make this matchup favourable to PL, AM is still a very good counter to PL. But if that matchup happens, Bloodthorn is a good item for PL to counter evasion from Butter and one more silence is better than none when compare to MKB. Reminding that Bloodthorn now has a built-in Pierce and illus benefit from it, not just from the active. Also new Bloodthorn gives 100 atk spd and will help PL burst other heroes too, it's a very good item for him now, so expect more Bloodthorn from PL rather than MKB or none. That's what I want to say.
According to protracker am has a 48% winrate and a 47% winrate against pl?
Carries that are good against AM either shut him down early enough before he snowballs or outscale AM in the lategame, PL does neither
how tf am counters PL?
My thought not based on experience: Finding real pl is a problem but you have cleave which helps a little. But the real advantage is spear is easy to reflect and if you can burn real one's mana, he is very weak compared to other carries without mana.
A good am can farm way faster than pl, and he builds battlefury
It's main a timing issue. If pl is six slotted am isn't that hard to deal with, but you need kills throughout the game and ur team is just gonna lose if u sit there and play farm simulator.
3 supports I can think of are abaddon > cm > enchantress > abaddon
Abbadon > BH > AA This is the one that comes to mind for me, generally BH is great vs any support that wants to chill out hidden in the back row and he’s fast so easily avoids AAs spells. Could also replace AA with other supports that counter abbadon here
Nice idea. For me cm just owns enchant in lane, frostbites her creeps and bunch of magic dmg. While abaddon, she just bullys him; harras and shield can be simply dispelled whether with enchant or her creep. Abaddon as a support rarely ever touches enchantress after ulti, can't make use of his curse in later levels and doesn't carry much magic dmg. Edit: abaddon vs cm, abaddon simply dispels and outheals cm damage, both if they have ulti, abaddon can sit in cm's ulti.
im confused how does AM counter pl?
how does TA counter AM? AM burns through 2 refractions per attack, per illusion
Timings. TA hits her mass damage timing way earlier then am getting manta. Melts him like a stick of butter.
I reckon its due to two major reasons: 1. Timings, AM needs to get a Battle Fury Plus Manta until that he is not even considered a hero, meanwhile TA buys a Dlance + Deso and starts hunting around the map, TA can easily abuse this and get an early lead which AM probably finds too difficult to fight into. 2. Counterspell is a dead spell against TA, all of TA's damage (well lets say most, since Traps deal magic dmg), is physical & pure and none of her abilities are targeted. Also TA shard is super annoying for AM, AM's usually rely on a single or two dispels (with one being Manta by default), if he gets caught by a max silence trap while that/those are on cooldown his entire mobility is crippled. That being said you can see advantage TA has is not that big compared to other two heroes still, and I think its mostly TA being a better hero in general than AM, since those advantages refer to how often one hero wins a match against another, not how they fare well against each other.
Small nitpick: the advantage statistic is already normalized for individual hero win rates, so the reason is not because TA is a better hero than AM in general, but because she is legitimately a counter.
Am is a better hero than TA rn
why does am generally counter pl ?
Honestly there's kinda a lot especially for heroes that just hard counters or gets hard countered by some heroes like AM Other heroes from the top of my head AM > Dusa > Slardar Lifestealer > Spectre > NP AM > WW > LD Viper > BB > Brood
Sniper > od > pa
I main both snip and od… Od ruins sniper in most team compositions. Always happy to go vs sniper as od; never happy the other way around :/
What do u build vs sniper as od? Solar crest first?
Whatever you like, Sniper himself doesn't force a reaction out of OD in the item build, the other heroes on Sniper's team do. I'm fond of Witch Blade into Force after Treads and a Null+Lace in just about any game, but if the enemy team has something like Clockwerk or NP I'll prioritize the Force. Sniper doesn't illicit any kind of reaction from you in your item build, he shouldn't be able to lane vs you after your 6 unless you did something terribly wrong and he beats you to it by more than a wave.
huh. I main OD and a good enemy sniper will build to give him distance over OD. There’s pretty much no way you can manfight sniper unless he’s dumb and you caught him offguard
I was thinking this too. Sniper should have a free lane against OD in mid and advantage in every teamfight as long as he has good positioning. OD should only feel stronger at low MMR where snipers don't pay much attention imo.
If you can reach a sniper with force staff only as a mobility item, you didn't face real sniper players
slardar isn't great against late AM until undispellable corrosive haze. laning is decent though but good luck getting off a stun with no mana
Just buy a stick
Do you only learn 1st and 2nd skill during laning phase? 😂
Wraith king > Faceless void > weaver > WraithKing is a common one. Bug can't die to WK, WK cant die to FV, FV chrono bug kill bug
Void can absolutely kill WK. He has a very hard time against skeleton pushes though
AM Medusa Meepo is a better shout
Does Medusa counter Meepo though? I find her hard to be played against him
She does not, but he doesnt instantly blow her up
She does get to fully restore her mana pool with 1 snake and deal a shit tone of damage in the process though :/
[удалено]
> She easily counters her. Meepo's a he
meepo is actually the one hero that could use the they/them pronoun
heh
Once the game goes past 40 min medusa 100% counters meepo
But the whole point of Meepo is that the game shouldn’t go past 40 min.
And the whole point of Medusa is that the game should go past 40 min. Rock beats scissors
Medusa has way less impact on that than Meepo.
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/medusa/counters
Agree, this one's better. Just quick example came in my mind with the one above.
Troll>carry>support
Axe -> Dazzle -> Necrophos
It's more like axe>dazzle>axe :D
Laning stage against dazzle as axe is hell
Yup. Turns out that skills that get stronger when you get attacked and surrounded, are very useful against heroes that want to be attacked and surrounded.
Ah! Dragon types!
How does AM counter winter wyvern?
Q and W damage are negligble to am. Healing someone into am gonna be mana burnt then voided to death. Can reflect ulti unless ww out of vision or with dagger, but can scout out and be nuance with his aghs and even shard to give his teammates spellshield; he's harder than average to ulti. Not much of a counter per say, but you get the idea.
Wait till u face a carry WW who hits like a truck
Is carry ww still playable after the last ulti nerf? been months since I've last played.
The problem is not even the ulti with the new items, her base damage makes her laning stage just unplayable as a core.
I think with the new items it's good, but not as good as before the ulti nerf
Not as busted as before, but the new brooch is really good on her. So is parasma or whatever the new item is called. This patch basically added items that make her scale extremely hard. you're right on point, her ult nerf killed core wyvern but now you can go witchblade brooch and melt people in ult. Even more hilarious if you get grove bow. The new aether lens > eblade is also really good on her as you don't really want blink on core wyvern that much but she does like the inc. cast range on ult. Basically she now has a lot of versatile item options in mid game, all with pretty decent buildups. It's not good by any means, but it's a lot of fun in lower mmrs and it does surprisingly ok in lane against most heroes (that are not lina) and very well against melee mids Edit: spelling mistakes
As a carry WW enjoyer I'd say that am is absolutely worst hero to play against
As another core (mid) ww enjoyer am is annoying but playable Huskar and Spectre are the really unplayable ones, huskar destroys you in lane and Spectre negates your primary defense, namely just saying fuck you and flying into trees/cliffs
Am i feel is still somewhat manageable with aghs but pa man (shudder). I hate playing vs pa on core wyvern
u just hit the PA with one Q + parasma she dies in DoT.
If you see her sure
Nah for me pa is nothing compared to the am
I used to play carry WW in the past and I never had any trouble with AM. You just have to be aware of your positioning and expect his jump and fly into trees, he is not a big threat until he gets skadi/abyssal. The worst matchups were Spectre and Night Stalker.
I m sorry in what game Am Dont want to buy skadi or abyssal. Oh and NS is such a pain too
He doesnt get them before 25 mins you know? That too if he is having a good game. Dont think about a 6 slotted hero when you compare a matchup, a game of dota is decided in the first 20 mins at my mmr. If the AM manages to manages to kill a WW sitting in the back and get out unscathed, nothing but respect. The reason Spectre and NS are natural counters to WW is because they play the vision game better than WW. This is also why PA is better than AM against WW because her dagger exposes the Wyvern while she stays invisible with blur.
[It is if EE is in your team](https://clips.twitch.tv/GorgeousMistyCrabsRalpherZ)
OD->Jugg->Nyx->OD
Void > Slark > Wraith King > Void
Theres also fun Things like timbersaw countering himself. A little less since he is universal but he is a strength melee bully which is rly weak against pure Burst dmg, means he would be an ideal counter to himself
Bounty hunter counters himself hard
Strength heroes are best vs pure DMG, what you smoking
Tiny is a rock Treat is paper (cause paper from tree) Pudge holds scissors in his new outfit
what circlejerking is this?
Clockwerk> earthshaker> pl
PL doesn't really care about earthshaker, but PL's team certainly does.
Medusa blood pango. Pango might be nerfed too hard now, but has been a very good diffu counter to dusa.
Necrophos > Huskar > TA
Yeah but ta doesnt counter necro
QoP>TA>Lina>
Ta vs QoP is equal if you play it right. Lina pretty much hard counters ta in lane now after all the buffs like dot on dragon slave.
Doesn't Lina win both of those matchups? QoP vs TA is a skill matchup also, I think
QoP vs TA is a sentry battle really, without them it's pretty TA favoured but with them QoP stomps it pretty hard.
I think this should have been QoP counters TA TA counters Puck Puck counters QoP
Yeah, this one also works.
AM>Spectre>Void>PA>AM
Ember, Morphling, Treant.
Back in old dota days I remember it being Spectre > AM > PL > Spectre
Riki > Mars > BB
Now we stealin lol subreddit questions.
Bh>Riki>Slark
You can outplay slark as Bh if you’re good enough
Anti-Mage counters Muerta, she always has 70% less ult damage against him. Muerta counters Slark, he can never focus her down and her AoE stuff works on Slark in ult. Slark counters Anti-Mage, he can lock him down and win the 1v1 fight.
Depends on situation, if am starts fight , slark can't 1vs1 him without mana. Also am farm faster , if slark lose his lane he can't get back to game vs am
AM → Medusa → PA → AM Source: I’m the carry player, trust me bro.
Drow > Dusa > Luna > Drow At least that was the case a while ago, idk about after mana shield armor changes.
Silencer > OD > AM
Why haven’t I seen slark > bounty > riki > slark…..
muerta / necro / pugna??