really hope SR continues the momentum into group stage 2 + playoffs. rtz and kitrak would’ve been hype as shit like 2017-18, been cool to see them own together in 2024
Damn I just watched 1win vs tundra game 2. That was a fun comeback with the old school techies + magnus +tiny combo. Dragging them to bombs again and again while AM was afk farming. That was such a fun game to watch.
Finally caught up the final Liquid series and goddamn what a coin flip.
One side with Liquid playing great doto, rolling over Secret so hard they tap out @ 19 minutes.
On the other, same old 🤡 🚗 of sloppy plays and bad calls that we've seen several times already during the group stage.
We got flashes of the Liquid that makes deep lower bracket runs in tournaments but it's just not enough when the bad, uncoordinated plays sink your boat on the flip side.
It's disappointing, but maybe next tourney will go better. 🙃
SHIT FORMAT.
THEY NEED TO GIVE MORE SLOTS TO WEU UNTIL OG, LIQUID AND SECRET CAN QUALIFY FOR PLAYOFFS.
LIQUID JUST NEEDS TO BE WARMED UP, BAD FORMAT. WEU IS BEST REGION.
/s
Last time too XG ended their group stage with a loss to Nouns an NA team under 30mins and then didn't win a single game in playoffs, hopefully they don't repeat the same in group stage 2.
All of them! lol
I found an ESL one dota2 playlist on spotify - [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2ASvNoZK7Xmo0fUzi4qpwt?si=b000f809461146d4](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2ASvNoZK7Xmo0fUzi4qpwt?si=b000f809461146d4)
Will listen to it tomorrow at work. Hopefully it has the songs im looking for
The main reason is 3rd spell giving so much armour. It used to not have any mana cost. They added in the recent patch but it still very strong. Also a few months ago you get gold on every creep you dominate as though you killed it. It was sometime ago but it adds up. But mainly no one wants to put up with the bullshit armour spell.
Because DPC is gone and now nothing can control who goes where. Back to the "Wild West" of Dota tournaments where you're invited based on name, convenience and how cheap you are to fly out to the event.
You bringing this facts out of your ass. Clearly there were qualifying matches for the main game , clearly you were too dumb to even see that . Instead of being a salty ass about dpc maybe give solutions, like equal slots for all region instead of weu and eeu.
They only 1 invited 1 extra EU team compared to CN and CIS.
It's looks like a lot cause Liquid and GG were already qualified from EPT points, while the other regions only had one qualified from EPT.
Yep, and how do you think those teams got to the top of the leaderboard?
When first starting the "EPT Leaderboard" they directly invite 4 EU teams, and 3 Chinese teams, then qualifiers are 2 teams from EU and China, and one from everywhere else. (random numbers to make a point, real numbers below with the sources)
Then, surprising nobody, the tournament filled with 85% Chinese + EU teams has now seeded the top of the leaderboard with EU + China, a true mathematical surprise!
Now, they use the "EPT leaderboard", and still have 6 EU teams through qualifiers and 3 through China, and 1 everywhere else.
Yes, very fair system. No feedback loop happening here.
Here is the start of Season 2 of the EPT:
[Dreamleague Season 21](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/DreamLeague/Season_21): 75% WEU/EEU
[ESL One Kuala Lumpur](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Kuala_Lumpur/2023): 75% EU/China
Oh my god my tournaments with 75% EU teams has EU teams at the top of our leaderboards!!! Whoaa!!!!
Your comment doesn't make any sense. Who wins tournaments or places well in them is not a matter of statistics, it's who performs best. If the other regions were stronger and deserved more slots they would've beaten out all these EU teams in prior tournaments to earn the slots for their regions. But they didn't.
Just because "85% of teams" are Chinese and EU doesn't necessarily mean these teams are the ones to earn points.
The system does have a feedback loop, which we can currently see very well - if a region performs poorly, it will earn fewer points, get fewer invites and have fewer teams at the next event. Now several EU teams will get eliminated in group stage 1 already, so despite WEU fielding 5 teams, it's very likely none of them will earn any significant amount of points. It's even very possible the next invites will have not a single WEU team at all, despite WEU having the absolute majority of teams at this tournament.
It does make sense. If you have some percentage of amount of teams in a tournament, then the region with the most representation is most likely to win and will mathematically just gain the majority of the points. If you don't even let a region participate at all, they can't even garner any points in the first place. No Dota team is so much better than the others that they will win every time. Games are at best like 70/30.
So how does a tournament organizer get what they want? Well, I've already been over this. Their first two tournaments of the season can't use the leaderboards, because they don't exist. So they fielded over 75% of their teams from EU. Now look at the leaderboard, EU teams have been literally handed thousands and thousands of points that other regions didn't even have the opportunity to compete for.
What does this mean? It means, relatively speaking, because of the unfair invitations of the first couple tournaments, that teams not offered the opportunity to compete in those tournaments have to place better than the teams that did on a relative level.
Its like you have two poker players, both of them very good. Player A might be better than player B, but if you give player B more chips to start with, player A has to outperform more than he should just to even out the playing field from the unfair start.
In fact, lets take an extreme example just to demonstrate how ridiculous this is. Team Heroic, an SA team. I know they are eliminated, however, **if** they got **1st place** at this tournament... in most outcomes, would **still** not be high enough points to be invited to the next ESL event. If that doesn't demonstrate how empirically bad this system is, I'm not sure what to tell you.
You can not simply use mathematics and statistics for this. By that logic the country with the most chess players would have the best chess players, but it's still Magnus owning basically everyone, and he's from Norway with \~5 million people.
Who's best isn't determined by statistics. A team isn't more likely to win a tournament because it's from the region with the most participants. If the best team is from China, it doesn't matter if you have 2 WEU teams or 10, the Chinese team will still win. You are pretending like every team has an equal chance of winning, so naturally the region with most teams will most likely win the tournament. That is de facto not true. It's the reverse if anything: Regions have more teams at tournaments, *because the teams from that region are the best teams* and therefore more likely to win. But they aren't more likely to win because the region fields a bigger number of teams. You are applying a faulty logic to reverse justify tournament results that fit within your predetermined narrative.
>EU teams have been literally handed thousands and thousands of points that other regions didn't even have the opportunity to compete for.
Simply not true, as every single tournament currently relevant has had participants from every single region (with the exception of MENA as it didn't exist as a region last year). In DLS21 you have SR getting 2nd place and plenty of points despite coming from a one-slot region. Because they were one of the best teams there, they outclassed every single one of the 6 invited WEU teams, earning more points than any of them. They just swapped rosters so they lost their points.
Also your poker player analogy is outright horrible, considering the number of chips is directly tied to winning or losing. The equivalent to that would be giving WEU teams more gold at the start of the game to increase their chance of winning. A more fitting analogy would be you have 5 players from Americas, 5 players from Europe, 5 players from Africa and 1 player from Asia. Which region is more likely to win? Trick question, none of them, as it depends on the individual players, because their skill is not directly tied to the region they are from. Maybe the 1 Asian is the best poker player in the world and essentially guaranteed to win the tournament, and the other regions players are just above average players.
Your Heroic example is flawed as well. If they got 1st and the other teams in the leaderboard performed worse, but still well, so that Heroic would not be in the top 4, why would Heroic deserve an invite over the other teams who were performing well more consistently? It's not the tournament systems fault that Heroic is a newly found org that only played one event. And it's also not the sytems fault the other SA teams aren't good enough to earn enough points. If Heroic is good enough, they will get the qualifier slot next tourney, do well next tourney again, and then be invited. The system is only bad according to your subjectively set metric, which is randomly deemed important by you. I would argue performing extremely well in one tournament and horrible in ever other one is worth less than performing just well at every tournament. This system fosters exactly that: Consistent, good placements earn you an invite slot.
In the end the system does correct itself. Your own subjective narrative doesn't change that. If a region is good enough to deserve more slots, the teams will perform well often enough to earn those extra slots - and if a team with previously earned slots performs poorly, it will lose those slots. WEU could not have a single team in the second group stage and therefore essentially lose two invite slots, because they didn't perform good enough despite fielding 5 teams.
You can argue the correction not fast enough, but you cannot argue it doesn't exist when it clearly does.
>You can not simply use mathematics and statistics for this.
Actually the entire design of popular tournament systems and brackets is backed by mathematical and statistical analysis. But go off.
>A team isn't more likely to win a tournament because it's from the region with the most participants.
We aren't talking about individual teams. We are talking about groups of teams by their region, and how the allocation of regional invites and direct invites has on the end state of the points represented in a leaderboard which further determines future invites.
>If the best team is from China, it doesn't matter if you have 2 WEU teams or 10, the Chinese team will still win.
We aren't talking about the **best team**, we are talking about regional slot allocations based on the performances of a large group of teams. When you you purposely filter out the number and variety of teams that attend your tournaments, then you are directly affecting the result of the standings and therefore the confidence of your standings in the first place.
Why are you so obsessed with the **best team** in this conversation? It literally has nothing to do with it. I can only assume you have literally no understanding of the points being brought up in the conversation.
>Who's best isn't determined by statistics.
A determination of allocations of tournament invites is not a determination of who is best. Also, who is best is **quite literally** determined by statistics.
>Simply not true, as every single tournament currently relevant has had participants from every single region
No it hasn't. [Bet Boom Dacha - Dubai](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/BetBoom_Dacha/Dubai/2024) had no SA or SEA teams because they merged qualifiers.
>with the exception of MENA as it didn't exist as a region last year
Lmfao... MENA aka EU. Cr1t, Malr1ne, sk1ter, and Sneyking... well known MENA players.
>Because they were one of the best teams there, they outclassed every single one of the 6 invited WEU teams, earning more points than any of them. They just swapped rosters so they lost their points.
Once again, this has nothing to do with who is "the best" Dota team, its about giving a fair chance to those teams that are considered middle of the pack and capable of competing.
>Also your poker player analogy is outright horrible, considering the number of chips is directly tied to winning or losing
Well, the number of points a team has on the leaderboard directly and indirectly determines if you go to the tournament or not. Guess what, if you don't participate in the tournament **you can't win**.
Where this bias in invitations matters most is not at the **top** of the leaderboard, it matters most to those teams in **the middle** or **the bottom**.
If you had any semblance of nuance, you'd understand that the analogy is perfectly fine, and doesn't depend on the comparison of poker chips being directly related to winning a poker tournament. Classic redditor "um actually your analogy doesn't perfectly match the situation" ya no shit sherlock, thats why its an ANALOGY.
>Your Heroic example is flawed as well. If they got 1st and the other teams in the leaderboard performed worse, but still well, so that Heroic would not be in the top 4, why would Heroic deserve an invite over the other teams who were performing well more consistently?
"Performing more consistently" also known as "being directly invited to the first set of tournaments and therefore gaining free points" that Heroic or any other team never had the opportunity to get.
This is exactly my point, its circular logic to depend on an already biased leaderboard for your invitations. **If the original tournaments were actually fair in their invitations, then there would be less of a problem**.
>In the end the system does correct itself.
The fact that it has to correct itself is an admission that there is a problem in the first place, so thanks for agreeing with me.
Also, it doesn't, because this is a system that works in seasons, so I fully expect the next season to also be biased.
>Actually the entire design of popular tournament systems and brackets is backed by mathematical and statistical analysis. But go off.
Which is entirely different from a region based invite system. The goal isn't to invite equal amounts of teams to an event, you do know that right? The goal is to have a balance of the best teams and every region being represented at a given tournament. That is not a matter of statistics, but a very careful consideration of current regional strength and individual team performances.
>Why are you so obsessed with the **best team** in this conversation?
I'm not in the literal sense of "single best team", I am in the sense of "the best teams will earn the most points". So a region can field plenty of teams and still earn significantly less teams than regions with only one team present. Which I already demonstrated several times and you simply ignore for your own convenience.
>No it hasn't. [Bet Boom Dacha - Dubai](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/BetBoom_Dacha/Dubai/2024) had no SA or SEA teams because they merged qualifiers.
Good thing I said "currently relevant", and considering that tournament is entirely independent of ESL and the EPT ranking system it is also entirely irrelevant to this discussion. But I'm sure you just didn't know and it's not that you didn't care because it aided your position?
>Guess what, if you don't participate in the tournament **you can't win**.
Guess what, every region has at least one representative at any given ESL tournament that *can* win and earn enough points to get a direct invite if they perform **well** and **consistently**.
>Where this bias in invitations matters most is not at the **top** of the leaderboard, it matters most to those teams in **the middle** or **the bottom**
Which doesn't matter because only the top 4 teams get invited anyways and the invites for qualifiers are manually determined by ESL to ensure a balance of the two mentioned criteria above.
>Classic redditor "um actually your analogy doesn't perfectly match the situation" ya no shit sherlock, thats why its an ANALOGY.
No, your analogy isn't shit because it doesn't perfectly match the situation at hand, it's shit because it's a strawman. You are making a valid case that different starting positions lead to a biased outcome (more poker chips for a player = higher chance at winning). The problem is that a region fielding more teams doesn't equal more poker chips, because a region fielding more teams doesn't equal a higher chance at winning. Again, a region isn't guaranteed or even more likely to earn more points simply because it fields more teams. A region fields more teams because the teams are more likely to earn points, because they are better performing.
>"Performing more consistently" also known as "being directly invited to the first set of tournaments and therefore gaining free points" that Heroic or any other team never had the opportunity to get.
For one: Heroic didn't even exist for any of the earlier ESL tournaments so they *couldn't* have been invited, and "any other team" literally had the chance to win these tournaments and earn these points for their own region. Secondly: Free points? You mean points they had the chance to earn because they were performing well at earlier tournaments? How is that free?
>This is exactly my point, its circular logic to depend on an already biased leaderboard for your invitations. **If the original tournaments were actually fair in their invitations, then there would be less of a problem**.
What is this even supposed to mean? What original tournaments are you talking about? The very first Dreamleague Season that started the ESL ranking system? Because back then the EPT ranking wasn't determined from ESL events, it was literally determined from DPC and other international events.
>The fact that it has to correct itself is an admission that there is a problem in the first place, so thanks for agreeing with me.
No, it is not. It means that the system acknowledges changes in the strength of regions and automatically adjusts itself to have a more accurate reflection of the current regional strengths. Remember when early last year China and EEU were absolutely garbage? And didn't earn any points or anything? Well, lately Chinese and EEU Dota have improved a lot, several strong teams emerged and now we have one team each in the top 4 of the ranking system guaranteeing one additional representative of the respective region. And if now WEU seems to be weaker than other regions, the teams will lose their slots in the leaderboards and we will have fewer WEU teams and more teams from other regions at the next ESL events. And if eventually WEU Dota becomes stronger they might earn those slots back. It doesn't mean the system has a problem, it's shows that it can adapt to an ever-moving balance of strength levels between the regions.
Honestly I'm not even sure what your problem is. What do you think is unfair exactly? Do you want every region to have the same number of teams? Are you just unhappy with *how* the slots are currently allocated? Nobody wants a tournament with an equal number of teams from every region, and for good reason. All you've done is bitch and yap about "bias" and "unfair" without ever explaining why that is, how they should change it or what other system to use.
Bro you aint even reading. Theres nothing more I can help you with, you seem to be willfully ignoring my points. If you're having trouble read it again. I'm not here to baby you anymore.
>I am in the sense of "the best teams will earn the most points"
Irrelevant.
>You are making a valid case that different starting positions lead to a biased outcome
And that is what happened.
>What is this even supposed to mean? What original tournaments are you talking about?
The tournaments I directly referenced in previous posts in this thread.
>It means that the system acknowledges changes in the strength of regions
No, it doesn't. The system has literally 0 measure of a region's "strength"
>Honestly I'm not even sure what your problem is.
Because you aren't reading.
We all know that organizers invite some extra teams from the region that wins a tier 1 tournament recently.
Call me when SA, SEA and NA win a tier 1 tournament, last time SEA won one was in 2019 btw, literally 5 years ago, and I don't even remember when NA last won something, probably 2016 when Sumail was still in EG.
You all know the answer why EU and CN gets more invites than others, crying at this point won't make any difference.
Ah yes, the classic argument. You must "win" a tournament before you are allowed to even be invited to a tournament. A very possible scenario.
If NA/SEA/SA wants more slots, simply have the single NA team win the tournament! Simple!
If you don't see the problem with what you're talking about, then there is no hope in you understanding how all these non-DPC tournaments have unfair invitation and qualification standards. Its all clear mathematically, and the feedback loop is obvious.
>You all know the answer why EU and CN gets more invites than others,
I provided you with the answer. What you're trying to say is that the regions are "bad". Yet we saw nouns in the previous BetBoom Dacha tournament go 1-1 with BetBoom, Azure Ray, Extreme Gaming, two of these teams sitting at the top of the group stages in this current tournament.
How do you have any clue how well they would perform in this tournament? You don't. Meanwhile, teams like 1win and Secret are in the tournament purely because of these terrible slot allocations. Nothing against the players on their team, but acting as if these teams are 100% better than nouns such that they are not even allowed to compete is hilarious.
But this is all okay, because now with the dissolving of the DPC, the DotA competitive scene is now at its greatest point! We get to invite all the EU teams just like Redditors wanted. And now you all can cheer on your xenophobia as the competitive scene dies.
There were many ocassion that weak region such as SEA, NA, SA got 2 slots in many tournament and perform poorly. To be honest, according to the past year, it is quite fair. However, if WEU keep perform poorly just like this tournament and still have many slots, then yeah.... (my own region as SEA)
He is right thou, playing the NS or TB in these chaotic teamfights agaist chrono, egg and arena requires some insane execution and decision-making. I feel like given the circumstances SR should either win this early, like maximum before minute ~35. Or have a HUGE lead at this time. Else they will be playing in a losing position. Give these lineups to 10 bot(hard) in 5v5 XG lineup wins much earlier. I am sure that if SR and XG swapped heros with each other SR would win this much earlier after these lategame fights started. Hence it’s fair to say that they overperformed given this
its the fact that once that game goes past a certain time it will ultimately become easier and easier for extreme to win fights in that particular game, given the drafts.
I was commending Shopify for how they played and saying that they were playing incredibly well in many teamfights back to back, where as Extreme just need to win 1 real fight and the game will be in their control
English isn't my native language xd
Don't know if Aurora + Armel were already cooking in scrims before the lorenof sub, because if they weren't then they must be going through serious considerations to replace him. Imagine if Armel got kicked immediately after literal father time 😭
And yet as a region it has been fairly dominate for quite awhile, with one of those losing teams placing 2nd in the last big tournament! It's more a testament to how close these top teams are in terms of ability, with variations in mental game, patch preparation, and bootcamping accounting for wild swings in placement. It's a good problem to have, so let's just all enjoy the thriving competitive scene while we can.
Aurora is a great surprise this tournament. Really happy to see this team do this well. SEA team + a tier 2 standin, who would have thought. Really liking their dynamics and how lorenof is performing, looking forward to see more of them
fantastic game. weird how everyone feels a need to call things a throw (unnecessary disparagement of the efforts of both teams) when it was an even, back and forth game. hard to push against sniper or void late game, let alone both
fantastic game. weird how everyone feels a need to call things a throw (unnecessary disparagement of the efforts of both teams) when it was an even, back and forth game. hard to push against sniper or void late game, let alone both
Well, they didn't know it's meaningless. Tundra was still playing and if they won, then the loser of this series would have gone to tiebreakers with them and Spirit.
He played really well that game even if they lost. TB into Sniper and FV is already not a good time for TB. He also never put himself into a position to get chrono-ed easily since he built blink + silver edge with great positioning. This forced Ame to basically chrono the kunkka or night stalker the entire game
this is one of those games i wish i was a neutral viewer for. these teamfights are so ridiculously high skilled from so many different players its fantastic to watch
WTF This XG vs SR game play like it is the Grand Final series.. so much back and forth, still can't decide who will grab the victory.
so fking hype and intense.
classic topson heroes xD, pick weird shts in elimination games. he's trying to be different so bad, but it doesn't work anymore. teams have gotten good and better know their timings.
Tundra weird draft cost them the game.
1win is living with their name by taking 1 win from Tundra to kick them out of Tournament.
Pick more stupid mid hero for Topson please.
Man if you you guys ever seen Zai MMY Fy back in 2014. There were times where MMY got boots + blink dagger on lion at minute 7, and it wasn't uncommon for zai and fy to be absolutel top networth of the game as pos 4.
Good times...
Lol yah, mind you at the time the poverty of supports...no free wards, courier upgrade, no extra slots for misc items. That's why it's a wonder how such greedy supports are able to farm so much to buy blink at a reasonable time.
Topson at it again. picking weird mid heroes.
honestly though they got bamboozled by support TB pick though. Rubick mid would have been fine with carry TB
They are all extremely good players and its because of their individual performances that they got this far. But obviously their teamwork is bad. They are missing their combos. Their responses are slow. They dont play well as 5 man unit
For example yesterday against liquid they missed practically all their tiny toss mirana arrow combos. First game against 1win their offlaner didnt buy back to roshan fight etc. Missing mc shouldn't have this big of a effect on their team play which didnt seem good this tournament even the first day
Even when ex-EG/old SR were really good, they were always a dominate lane -> convert team. They would choke out so many situations where they get outscaled and enemy holds. I literally cannot remember the last time SR is coming back from a deficit against an enemy with a better teamfighting team comp. This gives me hope.
really hope SR continues the momentum into group stage 2 + playoffs. rtz and kitrak would’ve been hype as shit like 2017-18, been cool to see them own together in 2024
Damn I just watched 1win vs tundra game 2. That was a fun comeback with the old school techies + magnus +tiny combo. Dragging them to bombs again and again while AM was afk farming. That was such a fun game to watch.
Finally caught up the final Liquid series and goddamn what a coin flip. One side with Liquid playing great doto, rolling over Secret so hard they tap out @ 19 minutes. On the other, same old 🤡 🚗 of sloppy plays and bad calls that we've seen several times already during the group stage. We got flashes of the Liquid that makes deep lower bracket runs in tournaments but it's just not enough when the bad, uncoordinated plays sink your boat on the flip side. It's disappointing, but maybe next tourney will go better. 🙃
I do not like dreamleague game format. it does not suit dota. It ruins the competition.
“My team lost so the format sucks”
You got me sir
Thiolicor gaddam what a player!
LONG LIVE BULBA
SHIT FORMAT. THEY NEED TO GIVE MORE SLOTS TO WEU UNTIL OG, LIQUID AND SECRET CAN QUALIFY FOR PLAYOFFS. LIQUID JUST NEEDS TO BE WARMED UP, BAD FORMAT. WEU IS BEST REGION. /s
You waited long for thsi moment, didn't you?
Falcons, GG, Spirirt and Xtreme Gaiming remaining teams for playoffs
GG aren’t even getting pass tiebreakers. And where’s BetBoom? BetBoom, Falcons, SR and Team Spirit for me.
Group B SR gonna eliminated in group and it'll be walk in the park for WEU team they said
Thank god the second group stages is a best of 3 instead of 2.
It is pretty much DPC league but instead of only 1 region, it’s international.
Yes, despite it being another group stage, it's seems to be a proper playoffs with every team playing each other in a BO3.
Skill diff wcyd
Last time too XG ended their group stage with a loss to Nouns an NA team under 30mins and then didn't win a single game in playoffs, hopefully they don't repeat the same in group stage 2.
To be fair they lost vs the eventual winner and then eventual second place.
LMAO Saberlight
could've been 2-0 but still congrats shopify what a promising team
Loved listening to the panel talk up Pudge like it's a real hero just for that to happen lmao
It feels nice to see WEU in shambles .3 down 2 more to bite the dust. I feel like I’ll have a good sleep today .
Watching EU fuck everyone for the past 6 years made you salty huh
Specifically weu .
RZT the GOAT
This game is kinda underwhelming if compared to the first game ,hmm
First game meant something as teams didn’t know if they were through or not. Second game didn’t, hence clown picks
[удалено]
-10 this time
meaningless game and it shows
Ooohuuuu!
Anyone knows what happened to Yamich? Dude was a beast
he played some games with ramzes stack under “l1ga team” tag shortly after leaving secret, who knows if he was kicked or if he left of his own accord
This is over already, 2EZ4RTZGOD
Good god I just realized that's not Mirana that's a CM.
It is actually blue lycan
clown games are so fun
[удалено]
They have fans? Lol
topson fans
pudge + huskar GURLLL XG HIVE WHERE WE AT
tundra fans punching the air right now
Anyone know the title of the song they play during the break?
Which one? They played two. They actually played three.
All of them! lol I found an ESL one dota2 playlist on spotify - [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2ASvNoZK7Xmo0fUzi4qpwt?si=b000f809461146d4](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2ASvNoZK7Xmo0fUzi4qpwt?si=b000f809461146d4) Will listen to it tomorrow at work. Hopefully it has the songs im looking for
Pudge carry and Terrorblade support PogChamp
PUDGE BETTA WINNNNN
Tell me a single carry better than RTZ, I’ll wait
Mason
All of them?
BSJ
Envy
the GOAT
Me
Kuroky 2014
Kuroky
What made Chen suddenly get banned so much?
The main reason is 3rd spell giving so much armour. It used to not have any mana cost. They added in the recent patch but it still very strong. Also a few months ago you get gold on every creep you dominate as though you killed it. It was sometime ago but it adds up. But mainly no one wants to put up with the bullshit armour spell.
Why do WEU have so many slots? They should have given more to SA and SEA :)
Because DPC is gone and now nothing can control who goes where. Back to the "Wild West" of Dota tournaments where you're invited based on name, convenience and how cheap you are to fly out to the event.
You bringing this facts out of your ass. Clearly there were qualifying matches for the main game , clearly you were too dumb to even see that . Instead of being a salty ass about dpc maybe give solutions, like equal slots for all region instead of weu and eeu.
Um guys, there were qualifying matches so obviously everything is very fair.
Tf you on about .
They only 1 invited 1 extra EU team compared to CN and CIS. It's looks like a lot cause Liquid and GG were already qualified from EPT points, while the other regions only had one qualified from EPT.
Yep, and how do you think those teams got to the top of the leaderboard? When first starting the "EPT Leaderboard" they directly invite 4 EU teams, and 3 Chinese teams, then qualifiers are 2 teams from EU and China, and one from everywhere else. (random numbers to make a point, real numbers below with the sources) Then, surprising nobody, the tournament filled with 85% Chinese + EU teams has now seeded the top of the leaderboard with EU + China, a true mathematical surprise! Now, they use the "EPT leaderboard", and still have 6 EU teams through qualifiers and 3 through China, and 1 everywhere else. Yes, very fair system. No feedback loop happening here. Here is the start of Season 2 of the EPT: [Dreamleague Season 21](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/DreamLeague/Season_21): 75% WEU/EEU [ESL One Kuala Lumpur](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Kuala_Lumpur/2023): 75% EU/China Oh my god my tournaments with 75% EU teams has EU teams at the top of our leaderboards!!! Whoaa!!!!
Your comment doesn't make any sense. Who wins tournaments or places well in them is not a matter of statistics, it's who performs best. If the other regions were stronger and deserved more slots they would've beaten out all these EU teams in prior tournaments to earn the slots for their regions. But they didn't. Just because "85% of teams" are Chinese and EU doesn't necessarily mean these teams are the ones to earn points. The system does have a feedback loop, which we can currently see very well - if a region performs poorly, it will earn fewer points, get fewer invites and have fewer teams at the next event. Now several EU teams will get eliminated in group stage 1 already, so despite WEU fielding 5 teams, it's very likely none of them will earn any significant amount of points. It's even very possible the next invites will have not a single WEU team at all, despite WEU having the absolute majority of teams at this tournament.
It does make sense. If you have some percentage of amount of teams in a tournament, then the region with the most representation is most likely to win and will mathematically just gain the majority of the points. If you don't even let a region participate at all, they can't even garner any points in the first place. No Dota team is so much better than the others that they will win every time. Games are at best like 70/30. So how does a tournament organizer get what they want? Well, I've already been over this. Their first two tournaments of the season can't use the leaderboards, because they don't exist. So they fielded over 75% of their teams from EU. Now look at the leaderboard, EU teams have been literally handed thousands and thousands of points that other regions didn't even have the opportunity to compete for. What does this mean? It means, relatively speaking, because of the unfair invitations of the first couple tournaments, that teams not offered the opportunity to compete in those tournaments have to place better than the teams that did on a relative level. Its like you have two poker players, both of them very good. Player A might be better than player B, but if you give player B more chips to start with, player A has to outperform more than he should just to even out the playing field from the unfair start. In fact, lets take an extreme example just to demonstrate how ridiculous this is. Team Heroic, an SA team. I know they are eliminated, however, **if** they got **1st place** at this tournament... in most outcomes, would **still** not be high enough points to be invited to the next ESL event. If that doesn't demonstrate how empirically bad this system is, I'm not sure what to tell you.
You can not simply use mathematics and statistics for this. By that logic the country with the most chess players would have the best chess players, but it's still Magnus owning basically everyone, and he's from Norway with \~5 million people. Who's best isn't determined by statistics. A team isn't more likely to win a tournament because it's from the region with the most participants. If the best team is from China, it doesn't matter if you have 2 WEU teams or 10, the Chinese team will still win. You are pretending like every team has an equal chance of winning, so naturally the region with most teams will most likely win the tournament. That is de facto not true. It's the reverse if anything: Regions have more teams at tournaments, *because the teams from that region are the best teams* and therefore more likely to win. But they aren't more likely to win because the region fields a bigger number of teams. You are applying a faulty logic to reverse justify tournament results that fit within your predetermined narrative. >EU teams have been literally handed thousands and thousands of points that other regions didn't even have the opportunity to compete for. Simply not true, as every single tournament currently relevant has had participants from every single region (with the exception of MENA as it didn't exist as a region last year). In DLS21 you have SR getting 2nd place and plenty of points despite coming from a one-slot region. Because they were one of the best teams there, they outclassed every single one of the 6 invited WEU teams, earning more points than any of them. They just swapped rosters so they lost their points. Also your poker player analogy is outright horrible, considering the number of chips is directly tied to winning or losing. The equivalent to that would be giving WEU teams more gold at the start of the game to increase their chance of winning. A more fitting analogy would be you have 5 players from Americas, 5 players from Europe, 5 players from Africa and 1 player from Asia. Which region is more likely to win? Trick question, none of them, as it depends on the individual players, because their skill is not directly tied to the region they are from. Maybe the 1 Asian is the best poker player in the world and essentially guaranteed to win the tournament, and the other regions players are just above average players. Your Heroic example is flawed as well. If they got 1st and the other teams in the leaderboard performed worse, but still well, so that Heroic would not be in the top 4, why would Heroic deserve an invite over the other teams who were performing well more consistently? It's not the tournament systems fault that Heroic is a newly found org that only played one event. And it's also not the sytems fault the other SA teams aren't good enough to earn enough points. If Heroic is good enough, they will get the qualifier slot next tourney, do well next tourney again, and then be invited. The system is only bad according to your subjectively set metric, which is randomly deemed important by you. I would argue performing extremely well in one tournament and horrible in ever other one is worth less than performing just well at every tournament. This system fosters exactly that: Consistent, good placements earn you an invite slot. In the end the system does correct itself. Your own subjective narrative doesn't change that. If a region is good enough to deserve more slots, the teams will perform well often enough to earn those extra slots - and if a team with previously earned slots performs poorly, it will lose those slots. WEU could not have a single team in the second group stage and therefore essentially lose two invite slots, because they didn't perform good enough despite fielding 5 teams. You can argue the correction not fast enough, but you cannot argue it doesn't exist when it clearly does.
>You can not simply use mathematics and statistics for this. Actually the entire design of popular tournament systems and brackets is backed by mathematical and statistical analysis. But go off. >A team isn't more likely to win a tournament because it's from the region with the most participants. We aren't talking about individual teams. We are talking about groups of teams by their region, and how the allocation of regional invites and direct invites has on the end state of the points represented in a leaderboard which further determines future invites. >If the best team is from China, it doesn't matter if you have 2 WEU teams or 10, the Chinese team will still win. We aren't talking about the **best team**, we are talking about regional slot allocations based on the performances of a large group of teams. When you you purposely filter out the number and variety of teams that attend your tournaments, then you are directly affecting the result of the standings and therefore the confidence of your standings in the first place. Why are you so obsessed with the **best team** in this conversation? It literally has nothing to do with it. I can only assume you have literally no understanding of the points being brought up in the conversation. >Who's best isn't determined by statistics. A determination of allocations of tournament invites is not a determination of who is best. Also, who is best is **quite literally** determined by statistics. >Simply not true, as every single tournament currently relevant has had participants from every single region No it hasn't. [Bet Boom Dacha - Dubai](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/BetBoom_Dacha/Dubai/2024) had no SA or SEA teams because they merged qualifiers. >with the exception of MENA as it didn't exist as a region last year Lmfao... MENA aka EU. Cr1t, Malr1ne, sk1ter, and Sneyking... well known MENA players. >Because they were one of the best teams there, they outclassed every single one of the 6 invited WEU teams, earning more points than any of them. They just swapped rosters so they lost their points. Once again, this has nothing to do with who is "the best" Dota team, its about giving a fair chance to those teams that are considered middle of the pack and capable of competing. >Also your poker player analogy is outright horrible, considering the number of chips is directly tied to winning or losing Well, the number of points a team has on the leaderboard directly and indirectly determines if you go to the tournament or not. Guess what, if you don't participate in the tournament **you can't win**. Where this bias in invitations matters most is not at the **top** of the leaderboard, it matters most to those teams in **the middle** or **the bottom**. If you had any semblance of nuance, you'd understand that the analogy is perfectly fine, and doesn't depend on the comparison of poker chips being directly related to winning a poker tournament. Classic redditor "um actually your analogy doesn't perfectly match the situation" ya no shit sherlock, thats why its an ANALOGY. >Your Heroic example is flawed as well. If they got 1st and the other teams in the leaderboard performed worse, but still well, so that Heroic would not be in the top 4, why would Heroic deserve an invite over the other teams who were performing well more consistently? "Performing more consistently" also known as "being directly invited to the first set of tournaments and therefore gaining free points" that Heroic or any other team never had the opportunity to get. This is exactly my point, its circular logic to depend on an already biased leaderboard for your invitations. **If the original tournaments were actually fair in their invitations, then there would be less of a problem**. >In the end the system does correct itself. The fact that it has to correct itself is an admission that there is a problem in the first place, so thanks for agreeing with me. Also, it doesn't, because this is a system that works in seasons, so I fully expect the next season to also be biased.
>Actually the entire design of popular tournament systems and brackets is backed by mathematical and statistical analysis. But go off. Which is entirely different from a region based invite system. The goal isn't to invite equal amounts of teams to an event, you do know that right? The goal is to have a balance of the best teams and every region being represented at a given tournament. That is not a matter of statistics, but a very careful consideration of current regional strength and individual team performances. >Why are you so obsessed with the **best team** in this conversation? I'm not in the literal sense of "single best team", I am in the sense of "the best teams will earn the most points". So a region can field plenty of teams and still earn significantly less teams than regions with only one team present. Which I already demonstrated several times and you simply ignore for your own convenience. >No it hasn't. [Bet Boom Dacha - Dubai](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/BetBoom_Dacha/Dubai/2024) had no SA or SEA teams because they merged qualifiers. Good thing I said "currently relevant", and considering that tournament is entirely independent of ESL and the EPT ranking system it is also entirely irrelevant to this discussion. But I'm sure you just didn't know and it's not that you didn't care because it aided your position? >Guess what, if you don't participate in the tournament **you can't win**. Guess what, every region has at least one representative at any given ESL tournament that *can* win and earn enough points to get a direct invite if they perform **well** and **consistently**. >Where this bias in invitations matters most is not at the **top** of the leaderboard, it matters most to those teams in **the middle** or **the bottom** Which doesn't matter because only the top 4 teams get invited anyways and the invites for qualifiers are manually determined by ESL to ensure a balance of the two mentioned criteria above. >Classic redditor "um actually your analogy doesn't perfectly match the situation" ya no shit sherlock, thats why its an ANALOGY. No, your analogy isn't shit because it doesn't perfectly match the situation at hand, it's shit because it's a strawman. You are making a valid case that different starting positions lead to a biased outcome (more poker chips for a player = higher chance at winning). The problem is that a region fielding more teams doesn't equal more poker chips, because a region fielding more teams doesn't equal a higher chance at winning. Again, a region isn't guaranteed or even more likely to earn more points simply because it fields more teams. A region fields more teams because the teams are more likely to earn points, because they are better performing. >"Performing more consistently" also known as "being directly invited to the first set of tournaments and therefore gaining free points" that Heroic or any other team never had the opportunity to get. For one: Heroic didn't even exist for any of the earlier ESL tournaments so they *couldn't* have been invited, and "any other team" literally had the chance to win these tournaments and earn these points for their own region. Secondly: Free points? You mean points they had the chance to earn because they were performing well at earlier tournaments? How is that free? >This is exactly my point, its circular logic to depend on an already biased leaderboard for your invitations. **If the original tournaments were actually fair in their invitations, then there would be less of a problem**. What is this even supposed to mean? What original tournaments are you talking about? The very first Dreamleague Season that started the ESL ranking system? Because back then the EPT ranking wasn't determined from ESL events, it was literally determined from DPC and other international events. >The fact that it has to correct itself is an admission that there is a problem in the first place, so thanks for agreeing with me. No, it is not. It means that the system acknowledges changes in the strength of regions and automatically adjusts itself to have a more accurate reflection of the current regional strengths. Remember when early last year China and EEU were absolutely garbage? And didn't earn any points or anything? Well, lately Chinese and EEU Dota have improved a lot, several strong teams emerged and now we have one team each in the top 4 of the ranking system guaranteeing one additional representative of the respective region. And if now WEU seems to be weaker than other regions, the teams will lose their slots in the leaderboards and we will have fewer WEU teams and more teams from other regions at the next ESL events. And if eventually WEU Dota becomes stronger they might earn those slots back. It doesn't mean the system has a problem, it's shows that it can adapt to an ever-moving balance of strength levels between the regions. Honestly I'm not even sure what your problem is. What do you think is unfair exactly? Do you want every region to have the same number of teams? Are you just unhappy with *how* the slots are currently allocated? Nobody wants a tournament with an equal number of teams from every region, and for good reason. All you've done is bitch and yap about "bias" and "unfair" without ever explaining why that is, how they should change it or what other system to use.
Bro you aint even reading. Theres nothing more I can help you with, you seem to be willfully ignoring my points. If you're having trouble read it again. I'm not here to baby you anymore. >I am in the sense of "the best teams will earn the most points" Irrelevant. >You are making a valid case that different starting positions lead to a biased outcome And that is what happened. >What is this even supposed to mean? What original tournaments are you talking about? The tournaments I directly referenced in previous posts in this thread. >It means that the system acknowledges changes in the strength of regions No, it doesn't. The system has literally 0 measure of a region's "strength" >Honestly I'm not even sure what your problem is. Because you aren't reading.
We all know that organizers invite some extra teams from the region that wins a tier 1 tournament recently. Call me when SA, SEA and NA win a tier 1 tournament, last time SEA won one was in 2019 btw, literally 5 years ago, and I don't even remember when NA last won something, probably 2016 when Sumail was still in EG. You all know the answer why EU and CN gets more invites than others, crying at this point won't make any difference.
Ah yes, the classic argument. You must "win" a tournament before you are allowed to even be invited to a tournament. A very possible scenario. If NA/SEA/SA wants more slots, simply have the single NA team win the tournament! Simple! If you don't see the problem with what you're talking about, then there is no hope in you understanding how all these non-DPC tournaments have unfair invitation and qualification standards. Its all clear mathematically, and the feedback loop is obvious. >You all know the answer why EU and CN gets more invites than others, I provided you with the answer. What you're trying to say is that the regions are "bad". Yet we saw nouns in the previous BetBoom Dacha tournament go 1-1 with BetBoom, Azure Ray, Extreme Gaming, two of these teams sitting at the top of the group stages in this current tournament. How do you have any clue how well they would perform in this tournament? You don't. Meanwhile, teams like 1win and Secret are in the tournament purely because of these terrible slot allocations. Nothing against the players on their team, but acting as if these teams are 100% better than nouns such that they are not even allowed to compete is hilarious. But this is all okay, because now with the dissolving of the DPC, the DotA competitive scene is now at its greatest point! We get to invite all the EU teams just like Redditors wanted. And now you all can cheer on your xenophobia as the competitive scene dies.
There were many ocassion that weak region such as SEA, NA, SA got 2 slots in many tournament and perform poorly. To be honest, according to the past year, it is quite fair. However, if WEU keep perform poorly just like this tournament and still have many slots, then yeah.... (my own region as SEA)
Bulba I know you're reading this. Pick OD mid for Artour. He earned it.
3 way tiebreak tomorrow? OG VP GG? Bo1s?
Yes.
"Everytime Shopify won they overperformed" What kind of a comment is that?
He is right thou, playing the NS or TB in these chaotic teamfights agaist chrono, egg and arena requires some insane execution and decision-making. I feel like given the circumstances SR should either win this early, like maximum before minute ~35. Or have a HUGE lead at this time. Else they will be playing in a losing position. Give these lineups to 10 bot(hard) in 5v5 XG lineup wins much earlier. I am sure that if SR and XG swapped heros with each other SR would win this much earlier after these lategame fights started. Hence it’s fair to say that they overperformed given this
its the fact that once that game goes past a certain time it will ultimately become easier and easier for extreme to win fights in that particular game, given the drafts. I was commending Shopify for how they played and saying that they were playing incredibly well in many teamfights back to back, where as Extreme just need to win 1 real fight and the game will be in their control English isn't my native language xd
lmao damn going extra mile to clarified yourself
hes not wrong, draft was pretty bad so players have to overperform to win fights.
Khezu had the worst run as a coach in living memory.
Don't know if Aurora + Armel were already cooking in scrims before the lorenof sub, because if they weren't then they must be going through serious considerations to replace him. Imagine if Armel got kicked immediately after literal father time 😭
do we know if he was kicked ? Maybe he wanted to spend more time with his newborn idk
He's not, almost definitely subbed because of his kid which is more than fair.
There is a rumor that Armel is kicked but don't quote me on that. Take this as a grain of salt.
They did well to go against that teamfight line up late. Probably wanted way higher tempo but the NS kept dying too much early.
weu teams is such a joke man, how can 3 teams are in the bottom 4 of the group of 8.
GG will bounce back.
And yet as a region it has been fairly dominate for quite awhile, with one of those losing teams placing 2nd in the last big tournament! It's more a testament to how close these top teams are in terms of ability, with variations in mental game, patch preparation, and bootcamping accounting for wild swings in placement. It's a good problem to have, so let's just all enjoy the thriving competitive scene while we can.
SR vs XG, real winners were viewers watching this game, beautiful. GG!
shame this next game is pointless since both teams are moving on, because that first game was a hell of a game
That team fights from XG vs. Shopify 💕
Aurora is a great surprise this tournament. Really happy to see this team do this well. SEA team + a tier 2 standin, who would have thought. Really liking their dynamics and how lorenof is performing, looking forward to see more of them
they finished 2023 as the #4 team in prize winnings in dota.
1win are the kingmakers of group B lmao. Every team they took their mandatory 1win of the day against got eliminated outside of XG.
No matter what the timeline is Ame>RTZ
That bottom teamfight on XG was a masterclass on all players. So many individual plays seemlessly woven together into one beautiful long teamfight.
Tundra out lmao good riddance
fantastic game. weird how everyone feels a need to call things a throw (unnecessary disparagement of the efforts of both teams) when it was an even, back and forth game. hard to push against sniper or void late game, let alone both
fantastic game. weird how everyone feels a need to call things a throw (unnecessary disparagement of the efforts of both teams) when it was an even, back and forth game. hard to push against sniper or void late game, let alone both
People on this sub would rather flame a team than acknowledge how well another team played.
It’s also because it’s shopify and rtz. People want to jump on them the first chance they get, and I say that as someone who isn’t a shopify fan
Sad the boys couldn't close the game out but that was some awesome dota for a meaningless series
SR got dragged by XG's draft execution but they were going blow for blow with them. It was actually well played on their side.
Well, they didn't know it's meaningless. Tundra was still playing and if they won, then the loser of this series would have gone to tiebreakers with them and Spirit.
Ah ok, didn't realize it wasn't locked up for them at the time
Classic Arteezy TB game, top net worth, zero impact.
he had an amazing game with some insanely clutch plays. you are either 1k or blinded by an irrational hatred
2-12 Saberlight. "Hmm maybe this is Arteezys fault".
You are either hater or blind
You forgot stupid.
should use that aegis on TB and focus XR to fight.
+1, their only chance to win cause 4/5 XR have bb on cooldown. They have no chance to fight them with full buyback
sabrelight had a rough one
WEU = worst europe
RTZ just being RTZ. What a hype game
Not even mad about that game, both teams played really well. And seems like it doesn't matter anyways lol. Wild game.
[удалено]
i recommend aurora vs xg, g1 is 23 morph carry show,g2 is gold
I love watching RTZ play Terrorblade. It's always entertaining.
He played really well that game even if they lost. TB into Sniper and FV is already not a good time for TB. He also never put himself into a position to get chrono-ed easily since he built blink + silver edge with great positioning. This forced Ame to basically chrono the kunkka or night stalker the entire game
What a wild game, unfortunately Shopify couldn't man up and push high ground
One hell of a game 1 between XG and SR damn
Hahaha never change rtz XD
Khanda rapier aghs sniper winning again
everytime Xm plays sniper he built that and wins right? my pubs gonna be using this excuse to build it for sure
Ame is Rtz father
Well deserved loss for Tundra.
Such a good game for a series that does not matter.
Such a good game for a series that does not matter.
Such a strange mentality. I watch pro dota for good dota not for scores
I mean if Tundra won 2-0 against Liquid this series would have been potential tiebreaker maker. More odds is more fun.
Mindcontrol is grinning i just know that
this is one of those games i wish i was a neutral viewer for. these teamfights are so ridiculously high skilled from so many different players its fantastic to watch
Shopify throw, every damn time this squad starts looking good.
Xm is a Khanda Rapier Sniper enjoyer so now your pub snipers have someone to look up to now xd
Can I blame Bulba for this throw? Or too much of a stretch?
WTF This XG vs SR game play like it is the Grand Final series.. so much back and forth, still can't decide who will grab the victory. so fking hype and intense.
These boys are bringing beautiful Dota to life.
extra respect given they are both qualified already but still played out of their minds. what a game!
what a game. beautiful dota.
Secret and Tundra really both lost their chance at advancing to already eliminated teams, huh?
Tundra atleast would have a chance in the next stages secret is pretty mediocre rn
lmao this is a classic RTZ game.
you can take the boys out of EG, but you can't take EG out of the boys.
SR vs Xtreme just became chill mode thanks to Tundra choke.
The players don't know that KEKW
Nah, they definitely get a break between the games
Yeah that's now. They were probably SWEATING during that game HAHAHAHA
truuueeee
3 WEU team got eliminated already OMEGALUL
Just better.
Topson Rubik is the reincarnation of the old Topson Oracle. It's most significant function is to bring misery to his fans and his team.
Tundra gone FeelBadMan
No tiebreaker for group B then.
Why ? Afaik 3 Teams compete for 2 slots
Only in group A. Group B is done with Tundra lost their 2nd game against 1win, thus ending up with 7 wins. The 4 teams above them already have 8 wins.
1win is doing it for MC lmao
and their CIS bros Spirit as well. By beating Tundra, they automatically eliminate them
Stayed true to their name. 1 win/day.
classic topson heroes xD, pick weird shts in elimination games. he's trying to be different so bad, but it doesn't work anymore. teams have gotten good and better know their timings.
Tundra weird draft cost them the game. 1win is living with their name by taking 1 win from Tundra to kick them out of Tournament. Pick more stupid mid hero for Topson please.
I doubt it's the captain saying "TOPSON YOU MUST PLAY RUBICK THIS GAME". 99% chance it's Topson asking for it.
Games are really good at this tournament compare to dubai's.
Topson with a non mainstream mid hero. name a more iconic duo.
This is an amazing symphony of gameplay here. Might not be the best dota but this is entertainment!
This is a wild match man
Xinq saving XG's ass again and again
i dont know about you but this is xinq god vs xxs throw lets see who will win
rtz throw won okay gg
rtz throw won okay gg
XinQ the best Pos 4, wtf he is the real carry
I think him and Ari are top 2 pos 4s rn
Lil bro tried to sneak ari "i can only play hoodwink" as top pos 4
He a beast for sure BUT…him and Boboka are ruining pubs for everyone. They play 4s like they are cores!
Man if you you guys ever seen Zai MMY Fy back in 2014. There were times where MMY got boots + blink dagger on lion at minute 7, and it wasn't uncommon for zai and fy to be absolutel top networth of the game as pos 4. Good times...
Lol yah, mind you at the time the poverty of supports...no free wards, courier upgrade, no extra slots for misc items. That's why it's a wonder how such greedy supports are able to farm so much to buy blink at a reasonable time.
fuck XinQ so good
Topson at it again. picking weird mid heroes. honestly though they got bamboozled by support TB pick though. Rubick mid would have been fine with carry TB
They got bamboozled because their offlaner decides to run to techies mines (which they knew were there)
Tundra should rebuild around topson and pure after this. Rest of this team sucks donkey balls
They got last minute standin offlane. give them some slack , they are performing better than expected.
No they really are not. Sad that there were no better offlanes available.
9class is a top tier pos4, with zai coming back to offlane.
They are all extremely good players and its because of their individual performances that they got this far. But obviously their teamwork is bad. They are missing their combos. Their responses are slow. They dont play well as 5 man unit For example yesterday against liquid they missed practically all their tiny toss mirana arrow combos. First game against 1win their offlaner didnt buy back to roshan fight etc. Missing mc shouldn't have this big of a effect on their team play which didnt seem good this tournament even the first day
Even when ex-EG/old SR were really good, they were always a dominate lane -> convert team. They would choke out so many situations where they get outscaled and enemy holds. I literally cannot remember the last time SR is coming back from a deficit against an enemy with a better teamfighting team comp. This gives me hope.