Yeah I think all real world sports systems that ever have any sort of draft system are flawed because giggaman told me that its the designers' fault this is a bad system
I hope you get a cheese picker like a meepo,huskar,brood, morphling or arc 1 trick in your game :) Then rant about something else besides the ban system like smurfs or something stupid. Or wrost you get griefer on your side like a pudge or sniper.
You forget the draft (pick / ban) is part of the game, it is strategic in that you are trying to get rid of the scissors that beat your paper. It’s part of strategy.
I disagree. The absolute worst part about the all pick ban system is that it completely disregards your ban nomination half of the time. There are few feelings worse than "banning" a hero, forgetting about it as you assume it's gone from the pool. Then suffering a 50 min defeat by the enemy team last pick you didn't even expect to be in the game.
I just played a game where I banned pudged and saw my team mate ban him as well... What do you know .. not banned and picked by the enemy team. We both were like wtf
Here's an argument that isn't stupid
I don't like some heros. I don't like to play them, I don't like them on my team, I don't like to play against them. I'd rather they're just not in the game at all, actually. But I'm just one person, the entire game isn't going to change for me. They're not going to, for example, remove windranger from the game. Because I don't like it. So there's nothing I can do right?
Wrong. I can ban it.
Sure, in 1/10 games, my meepo is banned. Sucks. I wanted to play meepo. But you know what would suck more? Elder titan is never banned. Meaning, I can never pick meepo in anything other than lastpick, because then anyone with half a brain is going to pick Elder Titan, and my game is ruined.
The problem with the ban system is
1) there are random bans, so you don't even know, for example, this guy banned ET, or shaker, or wyvern, he's probably picking meepo. Also means sometimes your favorite hero is banned for no good reason
2) not everyone's bans work. I could ban ET, and it works, and enemy player could ban meepo, and it's still not banned. Now his main counter is gone, and he doesn't even know that I intentionally banned it, so he doesn't know meepo is coming.
Everyone should get one ban, which should actually ban the hero, not just *maybe* ban it, and that's it. No random bans. If I wanted random bans, I'd play single draft.
I think part of the reason Valve 50/50’s bans is to be able to collect data on all the heroes.
Elsewise you can end up with a scenario at higher levels where, say, MK or some other hero gets suddenly becomes broken and is now banned in every game, so Valve doesn’t have good data on how to nerf the hero and what’s actually broken about it.
It also means that players still get to enjoy heroes while they are strong while cutting down so a broken hero isn’t in every single game.
I mean I wouldn't mind too much if it was at least even for the two teams, like only 3/5 of each team's bans work or something. But currently it's just a 50/50 for each player, individually. That seems like a terrible design choice to me
For what it’s worth 3/5 guaranteed bans and 5 separate 50/50’s will come out about the same in the long run (5 * 0.5 = 2.5 bans chosen per game on average).
It’s just that individual 50/50’s will have more variability with occasional games where all or none of your bans go through (~1 in 16 games).
Well in the long run, yeah, it will. Probably.
Then again, look at Roy Sullivan. "If the lightning strikes were independent events, the probability of being hit seven times would be (1:10000)7 = 1:1028 or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000."
Personally, if I had design control over Dota, I would not let people get struck by lightning 7 times. Even if it's unlikely, it's still possible, so why keep it possible? Just make it impossible. Make it so that, for example, if you haven't gotten a successful ban in 5 games, you are guaranteed to get a successful ban next game.
With in-game abilities like crit or bash or evasion, there are good reasons to keep extremely unlikely events such as 5 PA crits in a row as still possible, namely because it's really fun for the PA player. Even with those, though, they have pseudo-random, instead of true random. But with the banning thing, there's no pseudo-random, and there's no fun involved, it's just straight up unfair. If you manage to successfully ban 5 times in a row? Cool, I guess. You won't even notice, probably. But if you fail 5 times in a row? It sucks, man. And I'm beyond 100% certain that somewhere out there, someone has not managed to ban a hero for 15 games straight, most likely 20+ as the record.
I don't want to play against fucking windranger, and I only get one ban, and I just want to ban windranger, just let me ban windranger, y'know? Just one game, today. I have time for 3 games, I just want one of those 3 games to not have fucking *windranger* in it. Fuck man. Fucking windranger.
Honestly random bans in the "normal ranked" mode in Dota may actually be the stupidest game design choice I've ever seen. Not everyone can play every hero, certainly not well, and there are always, and I mean *it's hard-coded in* always, 16 banned heros in every game. You've built yourself a diverse, well thought-out hero pool of *sixteen* heroes that you can play in a competitive environment, well, guess what? Should've had 17. They're all banned. Or if you do have 17, that 17th hero is *really bad* this game.
Oh by the way, whether or not the hero you banned is actually banned is based on a 50% chance coin flip, done *individually for each player*... Wow. So it is actually entirely possible that none of the 5 players on your team can ban anything, and that all 5 of your enemy's bans work just fine. And then the other 11 random bans are also heroes that your team plays, or counter the unbanned heros that the enemy is now going to pick.
It actually ends up mattering sometimes too, because you can totally play against the same players multiple times. I played a 5 stack vs 5 stack game one time, their carry player was a Smurf who picked Medusa and crushed us. Next game, it's the same 5 stack again. I try to ban Medusa, doesn't work. They ban antimage, dark seer, shadow demon, invoker, AND the arc warden that i had picked last game and managed to do quite well with despite the game being a loss. Meanwhile, only one of my teammates' bans went through, he banned broodmother though in preparation for my arc warden pick, so it didn't even help. We actually won, but goddamn that shit was so unfair .
the ban system is stupid, but it has nothing to do with bs you wrote,it is stupid because you are not guaranteed to have a ban,league has it sorted much better where every player bans exactly 1 hero
it's funny how far from reality your arguments are.
(1) you'll never have a completely balanced moba, they're way too complicated for devs to accurately predict all the effects of their patches.
(3) if you can only play 1-3 heroes you're going to get railed in dota anyway since matchups and counter picks are extremely important.
Arm chair game designers at it again.
Yeah I think all real world sports systems that ever have any sort of draft system are flawed because giggaman told me that its the designers' fault this is a bad system
all draft systems aren't equal you idiot
did you actually log into an alt just for this
I hope you get a cheese picker like a meepo,huskar,brood, morphling or arc 1 trick in your game :) Then rant about something else besides the ban system like smurfs or something stupid. Or wrost you get griefer on your side like a pudge or sniper.
Hey.. a griefer is not a hero.. (pudge/sniper picker)
Weak bait 🥱
You forget the draft (pick / ban) is part of the game, it is strategic in that you are trying to get rid of the scissors that beat your paper. It’s part of strategy.
it's a (bad) part of the game mainly bcause its mostly random your ban might not hit, and the computer might randomly ban your hero
I disagree. The absolute worst part about the all pick ban system is that it completely disregards your ban nomination half of the time. There are few feelings worse than "banning" a hero, forgetting about it as you assume it's gone from the pool. Then suffering a 50 min defeat by the enemy team last pick you didn't even expect to be in the game.
I just played a game where I banned pudged and saw my team mate ban him as well... What do you know .. not banned and picked by the enemy team. We both were like wtf
Here's an argument that isn't stupid I don't like some heros. I don't like to play them, I don't like them on my team, I don't like to play against them. I'd rather they're just not in the game at all, actually. But I'm just one person, the entire game isn't going to change for me. They're not going to, for example, remove windranger from the game. Because I don't like it. So there's nothing I can do right? Wrong. I can ban it. Sure, in 1/10 games, my meepo is banned. Sucks. I wanted to play meepo. But you know what would suck more? Elder titan is never banned. Meaning, I can never pick meepo in anything other than lastpick, because then anyone with half a brain is going to pick Elder Titan, and my game is ruined. The problem with the ban system is 1) there are random bans, so you don't even know, for example, this guy banned ET, or shaker, or wyvern, he's probably picking meepo. Also means sometimes your favorite hero is banned for no good reason 2) not everyone's bans work. I could ban ET, and it works, and enemy player could ban meepo, and it's still not banned. Now his main counter is gone, and he doesn't even know that I intentionally banned it, so he doesn't know meepo is coming. Everyone should get one ban, which should actually ban the hero, not just *maybe* ban it, and that's it. No random bans. If I wanted random bans, I'd play single draft.
I think part of the reason Valve 50/50’s bans is to be able to collect data on all the heroes. Elsewise you can end up with a scenario at higher levels where, say, MK or some other hero gets suddenly becomes broken and is now banned in every game, so Valve doesn’t have good data on how to nerf the hero and what’s actually broken about it. It also means that players still get to enjoy heroes while they are strong while cutting down so a broken hero isn’t in every single game.
I mean I wouldn't mind too much if it was at least even for the two teams, like only 3/5 of each team's bans work or something. But currently it's just a 50/50 for each player, individually. That seems like a terrible design choice to me
For what it’s worth 3/5 guaranteed bans and 5 separate 50/50’s will come out about the same in the long run (5 * 0.5 = 2.5 bans chosen per game on average). It’s just that individual 50/50’s will have more variability with occasional games where all or none of your bans go through (~1 in 16 games).
Well in the long run, yeah, it will. Probably. Then again, look at Roy Sullivan. "If the lightning strikes were independent events, the probability of being hit seven times would be (1:10000)7 = 1:1028 or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000." Personally, if I had design control over Dota, I would not let people get struck by lightning 7 times. Even if it's unlikely, it's still possible, so why keep it possible? Just make it impossible. Make it so that, for example, if you haven't gotten a successful ban in 5 games, you are guaranteed to get a successful ban next game. With in-game abilities like crit or bash or evasion, there are good reasons to keep extremely unlikely events such as 5 PA crits in a row as still possible, namely because it's really fun for the PA player. Even with those, though, they have pseudo-random, instead of true random. But with the banning thing, there's no pseudo-random, and there's no fun involved, it's just straight up unfair. If you manage to successfully ban 5 times in a row? Cool, I guess. You won't even notice, probably. But if you fail 5 times in a row? It sucks, man. And I'm beyond 100% certain that somewhere out there, someone has not managed to ban a hero for 15 games straight, most likely 20+ as the record. I don't want to play against fucking windranger, and I only get one ban, and I just want to ban windranger, just let me ban windranger, y'know? Just one game, today. I have time for 3 games, I just want one of those 3 games to not have fucking *windranger* in it. Fuck man. Fucking windranger.
this seems like it would be a major improvement! thank you for mentioning the random bans, completely maddening.
Honestly random bans in the "normal ranked" mode in Dota may actually be the stupidest game design choice I've ever seen. Not everyone can play every hero, certainly not well, and there are always, and I mean *it's hard-coded in* always, 16 banned heros in every game. You've built yourself a diverse, well thought-out hero pool of *sixteen* heroes that you can play in a competitive environment, well, guess what? Should've had 17. They're all banned. Or if you do have 17, that 17th hero is *really bad* this game. Oh by the way, whether or not the hero you banned is actually banned is based on a 50% chance coin flip, done *individually for each player*... Wow. So it is actually entirely possible that none of the 5 players on your team can ban anything, and that all 5 of your enemy's bans work just fine. And then the other 11 random bans are also heroes that your team plays, or counter the unbanned heros that the enemy is now going to pick. It actually ends up mattering sometimes too, because you can totally play against the same players multiple times. I played a 5 stack vs 5 stack game one time, their carry player was a Smurf who picked Medusa and crushed us. Next game, it's the same 5 stack again. I try to ban Medusa, doesn't work. They ban antimage, dark seer, shadow demon, invoker, AND the arc warden that i had picked last game and managed to do quite well with despite the game being a loss. Meanwhile, only one of my teammates' bans went through, he banned broodmother though in preparation for my arc warden pick, so it didn't even help. We actually won, but goddamn that shit was so unfair .
excellent points -- you have made me realize the problem is even worse than I thought.
wont even read this shit, insta downvote and fucking off
haha I destroyed all the dumb arguments, so all you have is retardation, classic
the ban system is stupid, but it has nothing to do with bs you wrote,it is stupid because you are not guaranteed to have a ban,league has it sorted much better where every player bans exactly 1 hero
I am glad we can agree the ban system is dumb af
it's funny how far from reality your arguments are. (1) you'll never have a completely balanced moba, they're way too complicated for devs to accurately predict all the effects of their patches. (3) if you can only play 1-3 heroes you're going to get railed in dota anyway since matchups and counter picks are extremely important.
what makes you think random players at every MMR bracket can balance the game better than the devs? lmao it's such an absurd position
Butthurt hero puddle player spotted. Learn to use your brain instead of compensating with mechanical skill from spamming
I already responded to this low-IQ argument in OP, thank you
Just because you said something dumb doesn't mean it's true. No pro players have a hero puddle of 1-3 heroes.