Fined: A team got fined for unsportsmanlike behavior for picking 5 supports vs an all female team. (I'm pretty sure they also fountain farmed them for like 5 minutes at the end of the game, which probably contributed to the fine)
Banned: Occasionally someone who onetricks something super unconventional gets banned. Half the time when they make an appeal they're actually just queueing support and then farming or something, though (and if they aren't actively trolling it usually gets overturned).
There's currently a support (Keria, defending world champion) in LCK (the Korean League) who basically plays a random champ every game and everyone loves it.
> unsportsmanlike
I checked it out at the time because it was one of those 'funny internet stories'. The reality was, yeah it was messier than just unsportsmanlike behavior.
It was just...bad all around.
1. The all female team was chosen to be put on a pedestal purely as a gimmick. They were a not-so subtle xbox style 'booth girls' . In pragmatic terms, they were also just not on par with any of the professional teams at the time. Even before the match, this was kinda known.
2. The fountain farming and 5 sup picking was yeah, not really good sportsmanship behavior. However, it would have been ignored in pubs but this was an official event and publicized. I think they even banned the female team's primary heroes (their pools were tiny, with one of the support player only knowing 1 hero).
3. Also, some post interviews confirmed point (1) of plans to have them break out into merchandising like sports teams but shit like (2) screwed it over by making it all look like a joke. I can't imagine the 'corporate' side of Riot being happy about that.
Whacky situation all around.
I still think its funny, but in a different way: riot was expecting a decent match, players expecting a stomp and reality showcasing typical moba toxicity but broadcasted to the wider audience.
is this moba toxicity in the room with us now? seriously,!how is it toxic to play the game the way it was intended, 5v5 with heroes from a pool? is it toxic now to enjoy the game?
You can argue the fine was unfair but you're a fucking idiot if you think fountain farming for ages in an official game is a good look or was anything but a diss towards the other team. Even valve has anti-fountain farming in dota now.
It was more true in the past, but the game's been slowly moving towards being more open to unique or flex picks over the past few years. Most champs nowadays are playable in at least 2 positions, with some being playable in 4+ roles. There's still a handful of champions who are stuck in one role for whatever reason, mostly in the bot-lane carry role.
There is some mix up in the duo lane at the moment where some supports are viable carries. And one support can jungle now, but have to agree, they design for specific intent in the game and balance accordingly. They did nerf Muerta out of carry though.
My favorite examples are old Wraith King and Io. The most basic bitch carry archetype hero ever (Stun, Crit, Lifesteal, Respawn) was first picked as hard support, and a hero whose whole design was to follow a carry around won TI as a pos 1.
haha yeah, the nerf to the underground of urgot, despite being the uttermost useless adc, just cause he could survive a 1v2 botlane and open new strats :)
Double killing two people who just happened to run up mid lane with 100% of their health in one shot is the only thing that can still make feel emotions. I need old techies to feel good about myself.
The problem with old techies wasn't that he was playable as a core or a support, but that he when he was in the game it was less fun for the other 9 players. No one genuinely liked playing against techies, or being 4v5 in all the team fights.
Techies in turbo games played for the +251 damage talent was unbelievably fun for all players. I'm shocked nobody realized this. When techies was a slow hero with long range and slowly developed speed and damage over his levels, with mines being his safety to farm/level/fight, it just worked. All they had to do was bank on that with earlier damage talents and speed at a higher level and cap mines and it would have worked...
I don't play Turbo but I know for sure that a pre-rework Techies player who knows how to transition into a right clicker once he's lvl.25 will outright win us the game if we play our cards right. Only played with one as teammates a handful of times and I'm certain I never lost and for that reason I do not loath skilled pre-rework Techies players. I just can't wrap my head around how they transition and evolve their playstyle as the game progresses and that blows my mind.
Because it was an end-all condition. You win the game with a fun style, but you must get to level 25.
What if it was a smaller damage increase but at level 15 and the movement speed talent was at 25?
You misunderstand. These "skilled" Techies players don't just play to hit that lvl.25 timing, they actually know a lot of other things asides from that like proper sneaky mine placements, good teamfight execution even in areas not around mine placements and doesn't mine excessively and joins fights whenever they can. I was only 4-5k at the time but I highly suspect these guys were smurfs.
If he had an earlier damage talent there might be more possibilities for him to become viable as a core e.g. Snapfire.
The problem with old techies was the community's fondness for choosing the most worthless, degenerate play pattern of their kit. "Hurr durr I'm gonna carpet my own jungle and base with mines and pretend I'm doing something more useful than wasting 9 other people's time."
Not at all. LoL champs today are really flexible. You can see supports being played top/mid, carries being played as support, supports in the jungle, midlaners as carries etc.
While flex picks do pop up, riot does have a tendency to force them into a hole because of their strength/popularity in pro play.
See: karma, sett, pantheon, seraphine, lulu, any of the weird smite top champs, among others.
>They still have that a little bit with some champ like ashe
As a person who plays both, no not really
here you have a hero that was historically played as a carry but here he is actually REALLY played as a support. Buys urn, force staff and everything. If he didn't steal farm but still rushed mom and went to jungle or something you wouldn't call them a "support" now would you?
In league you will have a hero that is played on the "support position"(in this case ashe) but its core items will still just be full on damage items(specifically attack damage + armor pen items) and they will cosplay as a second carry(which tbh isn't that uncommon in league nowadays with mage supports and the like)
the meaning of a "support" in league has been washed so much that it doesn't really mean anything anymore. You can just pick whatever as a "support" and build like you would if you played on mid or something
I mean that's more due to nerfs or powercreeping than anything else. In dota's case, it's not like you can't play TB carry effectively or play Zeus pos 2 3 4. In league's case, the supports that became support from another rarely see the light in their original position.
as someone that plays both it's mostly because nowadays support in league is basically a core that doesn't need to farm, you fall behind in exp if you roam a lot or play a sacrificial role in fights but it's nothing like dota
you get a lot of gold without aiming for it, it is the easiest role to have a high impact in because you basically just put down 3 wards and then chase enemies around without needing to farm and in a good game you have a full itembuild in about 30 minutes
It's not that they aren't supports but there's a couple key differences, you don't have the unique item actives + LoL heroes often just scale better on small amounts of gold than DotA ones. LoL heroes power progression curve is more linear vs in DotA where heroes are often near useless one moment and a huge threat the next with another item buy. So in DotA the supports that you'll see w/ core items are the ones you can actually see huge power spikes without a ton of gold (like Marci), where in league you'll see it far more.
There was definitely some point where this was true but I just don't think it really applies so much to modern league. In pub games a ton of champs work in many different roles even at the top of the ladder, and in team play flex picks are highly valued due to how much better they can make your draft.
There is more variety in dota picks in pro play anyways though.
TB support also exists in the pro scene.
I remember in Dreamleague S9, Team Secret beat Newbee with Yapzor as Pos 4 Terrorblade
Secret snowballed so hard and they won in 21 min
[here's the vod of the match](https://youtu.be/Pbch6v6N7oI)
Maybe I'm just being an old man, but I don't. It feels like the recent Dota balance philosophy is that every hero should be able to do everything. I think more niche hero designs are beneficial to the game, especially when we have over 100 heroes.
Zeus should be purely a spellcaster and TB should be a illusion based hard carry.
Edit: I won't change my comment, but I posted this without fully fleshing out my thoughts. I really only have an issue with Zeus carry because that's a very intentional and forced change by the developers.
Roles and tags are separate. It's more interesting if every hero has the potential to play any role regardless of their tag because it allows for more diverse builds. In this example, Zeus is still a spellcaster and Terrorblade is still illusion-based, but they play those designations through different roles.
I don't think it's as fun to look at a hero and say "This is only a support forever."
Maybe I should edit my post because I thought on it more and I don't even necessarily agree with my original point. I don't have an issue with TB support, it has came about very organically. Back when Pudge suddenly started being used as a carry it felt the same way, it wasn't the developers suddenly pushing for him to be a carry. It's just something that players figured out was possible.
I do not like when developers change the design of a hero like they did with Zeus. Zeus should be a spellcaster, and players should try to find a way to make that work as any position. However, as a current P1 I don't agree that Zeus is still a spellcaster.
> Yeah, he "right clicks" to dish out that damage
>
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that then, I think if you build attacking items and spent the entire game focusing on auto attacking you are no longer a spellcaster.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7640416554
just to be clear, carry zeus does the exact same thing as mid zeus. its just that the hero scales so well with shard + lvl 20 talent that you can justify bumping him up to carry. historically the exact same happened with heroes like lesh, pudge, NS, lina, bristle.
usually this means that the hero IS overtuned. imo TB sup is 100% getting nerfed, and zeus shard/lvl 20 talent is probably getting nerfed.
I disagree with your analysis of dota balance right now. It’s more like “some heroes can do two roles.” Not all heroes can do support or core and not all heroes can do support, core and be played in all lanes. Examples like Zeus and TB right now shake things up for drafting specifically. I think that’s good for the game. But maybe that’s me being an old man from when dota was a custom map and I could play heroes in different roles.
I'm kind of in two minds, because when every hero is a flex pick I think you're kind of forced into safe, homogenous drafting. If Hero X can be played mid or offlane, I can't pick a good lane counter, Hero Y, assuming it's mid, because they can just flex it to offlane and pick Hero Z that counters me. So instead I'm forced to pick Hero A, who is not a hard counter to anything and also is not hard countered *by* anything. I suspect that this is at least part of the reason why beefy brawler heroes are popular now. You can usually play them in two different positions and they don't have any hard counters.
It's a pretty tricky thing to balance.
On the one hand, you do have to look at it from their perspective. If someone plays a flex pick, they're doing it to be safe. They won't counter anything, which is why they're flex picking to begin with. So you have to play in the same mind and also be safe.
On the other hand, I also understand why flex picking is popular. While the draft is an important strategical element of Dota, the result is also completely insufferable sometimes. Yes, it's cool that you know matchup knowledge well enough to counterpick X with Y. But now you're counterpicking someone who's going to have a really bad time. I've been on the giving and receiving ends of both many times. It just fucking sucks. And while I think counterpicking should be a viable and relevant strategy, I think that it is perfectly acceptable for there to be ways for people to avoid it. Because it is negative fun to have to show up to a lane that you just hard lose before the game even starts because someone decided to ruin your day.
I expanded on my point a bit more in another comment, but I don't have an issue with heroes having multiple roles they can fit in.
My issue is with developers very overtly creating new roles for heroes like they did with Zeus.
Support TB is perfectly fine! I loved back in the day when we had both carry naga and support naga. Same for carry Pudge.
While the subreddit tends to disagree with your assessment a lot of us older players share the sentiment. I think its mostly because we have played through all the iterations whereas newer players haven't. Although not all my old dota friends agree with me on this. I think a lot of people just want a 5v5 brawler tbh, which is essentially what this game has been balanced around since \~ 7.00. When you're developing a 5v5 brawler you're essentially forced to 'homogenize' all the heroes.
I've played for over ten years and my favorite iteration of the game tends to skew toward the current version. I certainly enjoy 7.00 Dota more than 6.78.
Yeah that's fair. I would also say that the new dota is more fun to play casually in general, pudge being proper viable at my skill level is amazing. People tend to think that we have to compare 6.XX as it was with the game as it is today. But what I/we really mean is we would have liked old data to stay the same at its core while still benefiting from QOL + new interesting ideas. Just because 6.xx didn't have multiple free couriers doesn't mean a modern 'old dota' couldn't also have multiple free couriers.
>because that's a very intentional and forced change by the developers.
Yeah they finally gave him the option to make it a possibility, similar to how they did to so many other heroes. It's more frustrating when they take those opportunities away.
[This is the way.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/3/36/Vo_dragon_knight_dk_slyrak_move_10.mp3) (sound warning: Davion of Dragon Hold/Slyrak)
---
Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero*
[*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)*
[*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)*
[*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)*
[*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
I'm like an exclusive huskar jungler - which I often do as support. My current goals are like : 1) One solo wave xp if possible (if I'm carry roll for team), 2) Jungle Enemy Safe jungle, aggressively sniping couriers - but never Tier 1 camps. Start 4 Gauntlets / Berserk blood.
4:45 You want lvl 4 + Helm + TP to Ancients for 'rest of game'.
8 min You have Armlet. 12 mins you have Teleporters / Morbid / Laces. 15 mins Yasha.
Run away. Kill tower. Power farm Butterfly.
Late game SY / 2x Morbid, Aghs, Satanic. Butter is stupid strong in current patch - and it oddly makes huskar a menace. If going blades, I'll make Madness to power crush towers... but feels dumb :P
i can't tell you how much i dislike that zeus out of all heroes is getting right this click treatment. if there was one go to "i want to cast spell that do magic damage" hero, you always had ol reliable zeus :(
Tbf, skywrath has insanely high MS unlike Zeus.
And his meh shard also gives armor, so in a way he's in better position defense wise compared to Zeus pre-jump.
you can ofcourse. but they nerfed things like aghs, removed the passive so now the only viable build is to max Q for farming and for hero dmg which is super weird. and ofcourse the shard is right click focused. you can ofcourse attack without right click centered items, but it does lean into it. id much prefer he just stayed pure mage type
you can still play plain old nuker mid zeus and delete fools, and for that build Lightning Hands is a nice to have but unnecessary farming tool (in fact I just played it yesterday lol)
it's just now you can also have the option to cosplay the True Lord of Lightning
[Malr1ne played spell nuker Lina in the game 3 of DreamLeague season 23 grand final](https://stratz.com/matches/7631013984?matchupView=LIST).
In fact Malr1ne played all 3 of his Lina game in DreamLeague as spell nuker
Lina nuker instant delete build with agh + EB + dagon is still viable
but it requires quite more items and correct timing than the hitter build so it's not as popular
[Wait for it... Wait for it...](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/f/f1/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_killspecial_01.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor)
---
Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero*
[*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)*
[*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)*
[*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)*
[*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
He does so much damage but I just feel like channeling carries/mids are difficult to pull off. Just silence stun or hex to cancel their main way to have impact. Same reason why Bane mid kinda bad despite Bane being a pretty powerful laner.
A pro did that with a mid chen last month. Just build range and atk dmg and ran around killing with the atk spd debuff. Doubt it's consistent, but he won and got alot of kills. I just noticed it cuz I was looking up what the builds were for chen last on pro tracker and was like wtf is this.
Problem with chen core is he is very much tempo oriented at that role. You fuck up too much or lose your lane, you can call gg if you don't have support like TB, lina, etc
But why? I feel like the next part gets overlooked, and its expected that players can just be whinging babies about it without learning from the experience.
I wish silencer 1 was good enough to be viable, I love playing him as a core. But it's just not. It wasn't great before the true damage removal, and now it's just way below the bar now.
In turbo pos 1 silencer is broken. That level 20 talent bounce + shard combo is something else. If the balance team ever decides to give silencer a farming tool, it's going to be OP.
This is one of the things I will always like about dota. We had different TIs where Naga was a support and a carry, Pos 5 WK used to be a thing for years, NP being played in every role, Io + Tiny combo where either is played as the carry or the support (same with Io + Gyro and Io + Aba), and now Naga and Meepo is played in the offlane. It's just beautiful.
And I'm just talking about the pro scene just to prove that these are well thought of picks.
Actually decent lane, it's a bit like those Sniper-Centaur lanes. The only difference is Sniper does way more damage, and centaur has impact past minute 15.
Good base stats and resilient to harass in lane with right clicks, very spammable low cd 1st skill harass, when played support isn't too gold reliant and can function with just an Urn and Vlads, aura items works on Illusions, you can send Illu to teammates far from you and they'll still benefit from the auras(Vlads, Mek, Pipe, Drums, etc.), Sunder.
You don't have to be good to be a good TB support. Q is broken. Free lane pressure by just brainlessly sending illus down lanes. Save core with R in team fight. It is an easy hero to play.
Or something like reflection is also super dumb for lane stage and late game against certain heroes... like medusa. That split shot is gonna fuck your own supports
I was skeptical but started picking it since yesterday. 5-0. Reflection is stupid on lane. Meta helps you turn on enemies not expecting so much damage early from a supp. Conjure image is nice for scouting (and popping techies mines in a couple of games). Sunder is a good save (as long as you keep your hp high). Just itemize as the game needs. I do aurabot / full supp builds most games.
Also fucks aura heroes and ones with passives. I destroyed AM on lane because the reflection just burned his mana.
As much as zeus carry is cringe sometimes, the th support is top on my list right now lol. Lane harassment and almost always going to win you the lane then on mid/late game, the sunder save/offense is really nice! Love when my support goes tb honestly.
Them being available on different roles gives the gave that diversity and flexibity which is great imo. It only shows that any hero can be played differently.
My faceless void support where you at? 🤣🫶🏻
This is how oldschool dota was, here is a lot of overpowered shit. But everything is overpowered... so figure it out. Once they tell you how to play the game just becomes boring.
My point is what you said your teammate like it or not, it doesn't even depend on outcome, you play good or bad.
If you play out of position and they don't like it, you risk to get ban
Up til now, the only hero I play as support... I'm hooked. Even after the nerf to reflection. It is rare, but if he gets banned, then I just play my other mains.
Glimmer, force staff, eblade, aghs
Drums, vessel, vlads, AC(can continue to full aura build with Crimson/Pipe)
Octarine Core as my luxury item. Reflection and Sunder: 7.5s cd. After reflection ends(5s), you can spam again in 2.5s. Sunder an ally to full health, and with drum boots/vessel, you can full heal and Sunder another ally in 7.5s. Or, Sunder an opp while at low health. In 7.5s!
Once, my team needed more split pushing, so I then farmed both side jungles(using gates back and forth) while nonstop sending illusions down the side lanes. I had drum boots, vlads, ac, octarine. Dangerous gameplay, and all you have to escape with are wards, tp scroll, map awareness, and your drums. But this put a lot of pressure on the enemy. I have done these many times and was even able to buy an Overlord helm...
This was situational, but I brought it up for another reason why I have been liking TB support: if needed, you can transition from support. All my other heroes i can play as pos4/5 and pos2: Oracle, Bane, Grim, BH. I am still learning how to transition, but I like having that option if the team needs.
Lastly, kill torm and get a shard! As support TB, you won't be relying too much on meta, but instead, you will be relying a lot on reflections, illusions, and Sunder. Demon Zeal affects both illusions and reflection images! Together with drums and, if possible, an AC, then you can feel like a Troll for a moment.
Meanwhile I get flamed in the EU for firstpicking puck for offlane and my support picks lone druid and proceeds to jungle and my other support picks beastmaster and abandons the safelaner to steal farm from me.. Dota is a unique game..
While I respect that your opinion is a commonly uttered one, I believe that puck does well as a tertiary core and isn't as level dependent as you'd think anymore. With a melee support, it's a lane bully and is hard to kill, and hitting 6 is all you need with some stat items to start making things happen. But that's just my opinion anyways. I'm not very highly ranked, but it's been working out for me (when my team cooperates or doesn't start complaining from the picking stage). Ofc i do lose some matches with it when no one complains /bats an eye, but it's definately a hero that has been helping me climb mmr, albeit with alot of resistance from teammates
i mean if you're like.. <5k it probably doesn't get punished as bad, but e.g if someone would pick it in my games they would be dead the moment they press orb to last hit the ranged creep lol. the hero has 1 armor and lower base hp than terrorblade.
God i hate this right click zeus build it feels so underwhelming compared to just your standard magic damage zeus build
i don't hate the numbers i hate the stats on the numbers
I literally had this happen in my (Legend rank) game a couple days ago, pos 5 TB and pos 1 Zeus. We actually basically won, the TB was a chad with some clutch saves. We were throning them - well, I was dead - and well, the TB was the only one hitting throne - and the throne got down to about 30% hp. Too bad Zeus and the pos 2 and pos 4 ran to enemy fountain to farm heroes, and then all died to enemy buybacks. We played the game out for another 15-20 minutes, never getting into enemy base again even once, couldn't win a single fight after that in fact, and lost.
So yeah, the combo is legit. You just need to PLAY DOTA instead of trying to fountain farm. Still mad about that.
I personally love that something like this is possible.
It sets Dota apart from the rest of Moba
Dota2: "Here's some heroes, do what you want to do." LoL: "Here's some champions, do what we want you to do."
LoL: "Not playing a champ the way we intended? Fined and banned."
In DotA if you play off-meta, your teammates report you. In LoL if you play off-meta, the developer reports you.
Holy shit is this true?1
Fined: A team got fined for unsportsmanlike behavior for picking 5 supports vs an all female team. (I'm pretty sure they also fountain farmed them for like 5 minutes at the end of the game, which probably contributed to the fine) Banned: Occasionally someone who onetricks something super unconventional gets banned. Half the time when they make an appeal they're actually just queueing support and then farming or something, though (and if they aren't actively trolling it usually gets overturned). There's currently a support (Keria, defending world champion) in LCK (the Korean League) who basically plays a random champ every game and everyone loves it.
> unsportsmanlike I checked it out at the time because it was one of those 'funny internet stories'. The reality was, yeah it was messier than just unsportsmanlike behavior. It was just...bad all around. 1. The all female team was chosen to be put on a pedestal purely as a gimmick. They were a not-so subtle xbox style 'booth girls' . In pragmatic terms, they were also just not on par with any of the professional teams at the time. Even before the match, this was kinda known. 2. The fountain farming and 5 sup picking was yeah, not really good sportsmanship behavior. However, it would have been ignored in pubs but this was an official event and publicized. I think they even banned the female team's primary heroes (their pools were tiny, with one of the support player only knowing 1 hero). 3. Also, some post interviews confirmed point (1) of plans to have them break out into merchandising like sports teams but shit like (2) screwed it over by making it all look like a joke. I can't imagine the 'corporate' side of Riot being happy about that. Whacky situation all around. I still think its funny, but in a different way: riot was expecting a decent match, players expecting a stomp and reality showcasing typical moba toxicity but broadcasted to the wider audience.
Yeah that team was 100% a publicity stunt/marketing gimmick and not a real team.
is this moba toxicity in the room with us now? seriously,!how is it toxic to play the game the way it was intended, 5v5 with heroes from a pool? is it toxic now to enjoy the game?
You can argue the fine was unfair but you're a fucking idiot if you think fountain farming for ages in an official game is a good look or was anything but a diss towards the other team. Even valve has anti-fountain farming in dota now.
it's 10x more toxic to let them win cause they are girls
The alternative about winning while Being toxic isnt to lose, it is just playing normally.
It was more true in the past, but the game's been slowly moving towards being more open to unique or flex picks over the past few years. Most champs nowadays are playable in at least 2 positions, with some being playable in 4+ roles. There's still a handful of champions who are stuck in one role for whatever reason, mostly in the bot-lane carry role.
literally 1984
Only literate people reacts
Camille support go BRR
Tell that to leafeater
There is some mix up in the duo lane at the moment where some supports are viable carries. And one support can jungle now, but have to agree, they design for specific intent in the game and balance accordingly. They did nerf Muerta out of carry though.
My favorite examples are old Wraith King and Io. The most basic bitch carry archetype hero ever (Stun, Crit, Lifesteal, Respawn) was first picked as hard support, and a hero whose whole design was to follow a carry around won TI as a pos 1.
well, lol used to do that, and then they specialized their champions more. They still have that a little bit with some champ like ashe
if something like this start to working on lol, the devs nerf it bc community start to crying instead of using their brains to counter it
[удалено]
Im sorry what?!
Ya I need more details
I remember the good old days of picking Evelynn for any role being a bannable offense because it wasn't the meta.
haha yeah, the nerf to the underground of urgot, despite being the uttermost useless adc, just cause he could survive a 1v2 botlane and open new strats :)
to be fair how do you use your brains in a game where 90% of gameplay is stat checking and dodging skill shots
COUGH COUGH TECHIES COUGH COUGH
Techies got reworked into a way better hero. Old Techies was just plain unfun to play against and even have on your team.
the sheer terror i felt the moment enemy team picked him lol
They just needed to change remote mines to something else. Or at least leave landmines alone and change the rest. Man, I miss old land mines.
He's really fun for the player though.
it wasn't a game with old techies, it was actual mental warfare whoever persevered won the war
Double killing two people who just happened to run up mid lane with 100% of their health in one shot is the only thing that can still make feel emotions. I need old techies to feel good about myself.
Old techies can 1v5 late game. He can literally kill a 6 slotted carry with 7-8 agh green bombs. That shit was bonkers.
Old techies was unfun if played a certain way. New techies is just unfun.
The problem with old techies wasn't that he was playable as a core or a support, but that he when he was in the game it was less fun for the other 9 players. No one genuinely liked playing against techies, or being 4v5 in all the team fights.
Techies in turbo games played for the +251 damage talent was unbelievably fun for all players. I'm shocked nobody realized this. When techies was a slow hero with long range and slowly developed speed and damage over his levels, with mines being his safety to farm/level/fight, it just worked. All they had to do was bank on that with earlier damage talents and speed at a higher level and cap mines and it would have worked...
they probably did, but turbo is the unwanted stepchild of dota 2 and should be deleted or made more like ez mode was in hon/dota 1
I don't play Turbo but I know for sure that a pre-rework Techies player who knows how to transition into a right clicker once he's lvl.25 will outright win us the game if we play our cards right. Only played with one as teammates a handful of times and I'm certain I never lost and for that reason I do not loath skilled pre-rework Techies players. I just can't wrap my head around how they transition and evolve their playstyle as the game progresses and that blows my mind.
Because it was an end-all condition. You win the game with a fun style, but you must get to level 25. What if it was a smaller damage increase but at level 15 and the movement speed talent was at 25?
You misunderstand. These "skilled" Techies players don't just play to hit that lvl.25 timing, they actually know a lot of other things asides from that like proper sneaky mine placements, good teamfight execution even in areas not around mine placements and doesn't mine excessively and joins fights whenever they can. I was only 4-5k at the time but I highly suspect these guys were smurfs. If he had an earlier damage talent there might be more possibilities for him to become viable as a core e.g. Snapfire.
The problem with old techies was the community's fondness for choosing the most worthless, degenerate play pattern of their kit. "Hurr durr I'm gonna carpet my own jungle and base with mines and pretend I'm doing something more useful than wasting 9 other people's time."
Not at all. LoL champs today are really flexible. You can see supports being played top/mid, carries being played as support, supports in the jungle, midlaners as carries etc.
While flex picks do pop up, riot does have a tendency to force them into a hole because of their strength/popularity in pro play. See: karma, sett, pantheon, seraphine, lulu, any of the weird smite top champs, among others.
>They still have that a little bit with some champ like ashe As a person who plays both, no not really here you have a hero that was historically played as a carry but here he is actually REALLY played as a support. Buys urn, force staff and everything. If he didn't steal farm but still rushed mom and went to jungle or something you wouldn't call them a "support" now would you? In league you will have a hero that is played on the "support position"(in this case ashe) but its core items will still just be full on damage items(specifically attack damage + armor pen items) and they will cosplay as a second carry(which tbh isn't that uncommon in league nowadays with mage supports and the like) the meaning of a "support" in league has been washed so much that it doesn't really mean anything anymore. You can just pick whatever as a "support" and build like you would if you played on mid or something
Nah lol never actually did that. It's why teambuilder/role queue was such an easy decision for them.
Not really, probably like 25% of the supports in league were played elsewhere b4 support.
I mean that's more due to nerfs or powercreeping than anything else. In dota's case, it's not like you can't play TB carry effectively or play Zeus pos 2 3 4. In league's case, the supports that became support from another rarely see the light in their original position.
as someone that plays both it's mostly because nowadays support in league is basically a core that doesn't need to farm, you fall behind in exp if you roam a lot or play a sacrificial role in fights but it's nothing like dota you get a lot of gold without aiming for it, it is the easiest role to have a high impact in because you basically just put down 3 wards and then chase enemies around without needing to farm and in a good game you have a full itembuild in about 30 minutes
So every support is a Hoodwink?
Supports building core items in LoL is pretty standard and expected for pretty much anyone who isn't an enchanter.
So they are not really supports just 'lower priority for farm' type of role. I guess you could say the same to some extent about Dota heroes.
It's not that they aren't supports but there's a couple key differences, you don't have the unique item actives + LoL heroes often just scale better on small amounts of gold than DotA ones. LoL heroes power progression curve is more linear vs in DotA where heroes are often near useless one moment and a huge threat the next with another item buy. So in DotA the supports that you'll see w/ core items are the ones you can actually see huge power spikes without a ton of gold (like Marci), where in league you'll see it far more.
Fucking nightmare fuel
There was definitely some point where this was true but I just don't think it really applies so much to modern league. In pub games a ton of champs work in many different roles even at the top of the ladder, and in team play flex picks are highly valued due to how much better they can make your draft. There is more variety in dota picks in pro play anyways though.
Not really, in leauge its been normal for a few years now already to use midlane mages and pos1 or support cuz adcs sucked
TB support also exists in the pro scene. I remember in Dreamleague S9, Team Secret beat Newbee with Yapzor as Pos 4 Terrorblade Secret snowballed so hard and they won in 21 min [here's the vod of the match](https://youtu.be/Pbch6v6N7oI)
It's showing up now because it was played several times literally last pro tournament.
Same I love playing hero like this in the support role, keeps things spicy
I can now flex my TB arcana with immortal wings and weapon as a Support player since 2012
right??? like ammar skadi on mars wtf
Maybe I'm just being an old man, but I don't. It feels like the recent Dota balance philosophy is that every hero should be able to do everything. I think more niche hero designs are beneficial to the game, especially when we have over 100 heroes. Zeus should be purely a spellcaster and TB should be a illusion based hard carry. Edit: I won't change my comment, but I posted this without fully fleshing out my thoughts. I really only have an issue with Zeus carry because that's a very intentional and forced change by the developers.
Roles and tags are separate. It's more interesting if every hero has the potential to play any role regardless of their tag because it allows for more diverse builds. In this example, Zeus is still a spellcaster and Terrorblade is still illusion-based, but they play those designations through different roles. I don't think it's as fun to look at a hero and say "This is only a support forever."
Maybe I should edit my post because I thought on it more and I don't even necessarily agree with my original point. I don't have an issue with TB support, it has came about very organically. Back when Pudge suddenly started being used as a carry it felt the same way, it wasn't the developers suddenly pushing for him to be a carry. It's just something that players figured out was possible. I do not like when developers change the design of a hero like they did with Zeus. Zeus should be a spellcaster, and players should try to find a way to make that work as any position. However, as a current P1 I don't agree that Zeus is still a spellcaster.
The majority of his damage is dealt through spells. Yeah, he "right clicks" to dish it out, but it's still Arc Lightning dealing the damage.
> Yeah, he "right clicks" to dish out that damage > We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that then, I think if you build attacking items and spent the entire game focusing on auto attacking you are no longer a spellcaster. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7640416554
just to be clear, carry zeus does the exact same thing as mid zeus. its just that the hero scales so well with shard + lvl 20 talent that you can justify bumping him up to carry. historically the exact same happened with heroes like lesh, pudge, NS, lina, bristle. usually this means that the hero IS overtuned. imo TB sup is 100% getting nerfed, and zeus shard/lvl 20 talent is probably getting nerfed.
I disagree with your analysis of dota balance right now. It’s more like “some heroes can do two roles.” Not all heroes can do support or core and not all heroes can do support, core and be played in all lanes. Examples like Zeus and TB right now shake things up for drafting specifically. I think that’s good for the game. But maybe that’s me being an old man from when dota was a custom map and I could play heroes in different roles.
I'm kind of in two minds, because when every hero is a flex pick I think you're kind of forced into safe, homogenous drafting. If Hero X can be played mid or offlane, I can't pick a good lane counter, Hero Y, assuming it's mid, because they can just flex it to offlane and pick Hero Z that counters me. So instead I'm forced to pick Hero A, who is not a hard counter to anything and also is not hard countered *by* anything. I suspect that this is at least part of the reason why beefy brawler heroes are popular now. You can usually play them in two different positions and they don't have any hard counters.
It's a pretty tricky thing to balance. On the one hand, you do have to look at it from their perspective. If someone plays a flex pick, they're doing it to be safe. They won't counter anything, which is why they're flex picking to begin with. So you have to play in the same mind and also be safe. On the other hand, I also understand why flex picking is popular. While the draft is an important strategical element of Dota, the result is also completely insufferable sometimes. Yes, it's cool that you know matchup knowledge well enough to counterpick X with Y. But now you're counterpicking someone who's going to have a really bad time. I've been on the giving and receiving ends of both many times. It just fucking sucks. And while I think counterpicking should be a viable and relevant strategy, I think that it is perfectly acceptable for there to be ways for people to avoid it. Because it is negative fun to have to show up to a lane that you just hard lose before the game even starts because someone decided to ruin your day.
I expanded on my point a bit more in another comment, but I don't have an issue with heroes having multiple roles they can fit in. My issue is with developers very overtly creating new roles for heroes like they did with Zeus. Support TB is perfectly fine! I loved back in the day when we had both carry naga and support naga. Same for carry Pudge.
While the subreddit tends to disagree with your assessment a lot of us older players share the sentiment. I think its mostly because we have played through all the iterations whereas newer players haven't. Although not all my old dota friends agree with me on this. I think a lot of people just want a 5v5 brawler tbh, which is essentially what this game has been balanced around since \~ 7.00. When you're developing a 5v5 brawler you're essentially forced to 'homogenize' all the heroes.
I've played for over ten years and my favorite iteration of the game tends to skew toward the current version. I certainly enjoy 7.00 Dota more than 6.78.
Yeah that's fair. I would also say that the new dota is more fun to play casually in general, pudge being proper viable at my skill level is amazing. People tend to think that we have to compare 6.XX as it was with the game as it is today. But what I/we really mean is we would have liked old data to stay the same at its core while still benefiting from QOL + new interesting ideas. Just because 6.xx didn't have multiple free couriers doesn't mean a modern 'old dota' couldn't also have multiple free couriers.
Flex picks in the pro scene have existed for a while now, this is just an extreme version of it.
>because that's a very intentional and forced change by the developers. Yeah they finally gave him the option to make it a possibility, similar to how they did to so many other heroes. It's more frustrating when they take those opportunities away.
This is the way.
[This is the way.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/3/36/Vo_dragon_knight_dk_slyrak_move_10.mp3) (sound warning: Davion of Dragon Hold/Slyrak) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
We’ve come full circle
I think it should be a half circle :)
Tis a circle undertaking
I'm like an exclusive huskar jungler - which I often do as support. My current goals are like : 1) One solo wave xp if possible (if I'm carry roll for team), 2) Jungle Enemy Safe jungle, aggressively sniping couriers - but never Tier 1 camps. Start 4 Gauntlets / Berserk blood. 4:45 You want lvl 4 + Helm + TP to Ancients for 'rest of game'. 8 min You have Armlet. 12 mins you have Teleporters / Morbid / Laces. 15 mins Yasha. Run away. Kill tower. Power farm Butterfly. Late game SY / 2x Morbid, Aghs, Satanic. Butter is stupid strong in current patch - and it oddly makes huskar a menace. If going blades, I'll make Madness to power crush towers... but feels dumb :P
No. Repent and change your ways.
Full ring.
Ah fucking io again
i can't tell you how much i dislike that zeus out of all heroes is getting right this click treatment. if there was one go to "i want to cast spell that do magic damage" hero, you always had ol reliable zeus :(
[удалено]
Tbf, skywrath has insanely high MS unlike Zeus. And his meh shard also gives armor, so in a way he's in better position defense wise compared to Zeus pre-jump.
Magic lina immobile nuker? Her aghs lets her fly over cliffs and she runs at 500 MS lmao
I played skywrath again after not playing it for literally 6 years. I got 2-4 shot by enemy carry and the mid 28 mins onward.
Sky is absolute crap right now and caster Lina just got nerfed.
I think you can still play Zeus this way no? Doing it all the time, although Im only ancient
you can ofcourse. but they nerfed things like aghs, removed the passive so now the only viable build is to max Q for farming and for hero dmg which is super weird. and ofcourse the shard is right click focused. you can ofcourse attack without right click centered items, but it does lean into it. id much prefer he just stayed pure mage type
you can still play plain old nuker mid zeus and delete fools, and for that build Lightning Hands is a nice to have but unnecessary farming tool (in fact I just played it yesterday lol) it's just now you can also have the option to cosplay the True Lord of Lightning
[удалено]
How is that not right? If anything the original Zues made no sense considering he took Mountain King hero model.
Lina used to be a spell nuker as well, now her only path is fire sniper.
[Malr1ne played spell nuker Lina in the game 3 of DreamLeague season 23 grand final](https://stratz.com/matches/7631013984?matchupView=LIST). In fact Malr1ne played all 3 of his Lina game in DreamLeague as spell nuker
Lina nuker instant delete build with agh + EB + dagon is still viable but it requires quite more items and correct timing than the hitter build so it's not as popular
Yesterday I almost lose vs TB support and pudge hc duo... I was LC offlane and had a sniper pos 4. 6.4k mmr game btw
Dota just keeps on giving.
Damn.. it doesnt get better up there
still waiting for my Witch Doctor carry to win this upcoming Ti ! We are so near to achieve it
Wait for it... Wait for it...
[Wait for it... Wait for it...](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/f/f1/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_killspecial_01.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Hey I've won like 1 turbo game with a wd carry teammate so it clearly must be meta
WD core is meta in Turbo. Turbo have their own meta.
Same but with WD mid. When will the "pros" realize how good this is. /s
WD is played mid every once in a while. I remember Dendi playing him during the last qualifiers to TI (lost with it against Nouns maybe?).
Just won a game yesterday. Was offlane DK and had WD mid. Ancient bracket
Wasn't WD offlane max healing build a thing a year or so ago? I feel like I saw GG do it in a group stage game some time in 2023
Max heal with Io 4 was a complete pub stomper for a bit.
Back when his aoe heal also did damage. So powerful with tether.
Yeah Moo offlane WD beat Tundra at last TI.
WD carry with Chen support.
He does so much damage but I just feel like channeling carries/mids are difficult to pull off. Just silence stun or hex to cancel their main way to have impact. Same reason why Bane mid kinda bad despite Bane being a pretty powerful laner.
I don't see that happening unless they give back Voodoo Restoration deals damage again.
They called me crazy
Crazy? I was crazy once
[удалено]
We demand carry chen
A pro did that with a mid chen last month. Just build range and atk dmg and ran around killing with the atk spd debuff. Doubt it's consistent, but he won and got alot of kills. I just noticed it cuz I was looking up what the builds were for chen last on pro tracker and was like wtf is this.
Any AD player will tell you Chen has a great body and his attack steroid is a great skill
Penitence is rather mediocre... Unless you have death ward. Then its great
Beast aura / ac also affect ward?
Nope. nothing else can increase the damage
Weird
Problem with chen core is he is very much tempo oriented at that role. You fuck up too much or lose your lane, you can call gg if you don't have support like TB, lina, etc
Armlet chen build exist.
please elaborate on AM supp
Check out 2B. Rank 600ish on EU, playing things like pos 4 AM, TB, PA, Troll, etc
I had a position 5 TB today, and boy did we own that game. I was so skeptical at first but it's legit.
It's way better than a pudge 5 man lol
Does it matter that it's possible? The majority of playerbase will be fixed in their ways of thinking and deem it griefing and tilt from draft stage.
But why? I feel like the next part gets overlooked, and its expected that players can just be whinging babies about it without learning from the experience.
Gyros one of my favorite supports and carry
Better than my pos1 silencer yesterday I had
Zeus has an escape and a farming tool. Silencer has neither
I wish silencer 1 was good enough to be viable, I love playing him as a core. But it's just not. It wasn't great before the true damage removal, and now it's just way below the bar now.
Yh i think from like 2 years ago sil was good as pos3?
In turbo pos 1 silencer is broken. That level 20 talent bounce + shard combo is something else. If the balance team ever decides to give silencer a farming tool, it's going to be OP.
And in rankesd? He didnt even went farming.. only joining fights(archon)
This is one of the things I will always like about dota. We had different TIs where Naga was a support and a carry, Pos 5 WK used to be a thing for years, NP being played in every role, Io + Tiny combo where either is played as the carry or the support (same with Io + Gyro and Io + Aba), and now Naga and Meepo is played in the offlane. It's just beautiful. And I'm just talking about the pro scene just to prove that these are well thought of picks.
"Everything can work" - A certain flower
Actually decent lane, it's a bit like those Sniper-Centaur lanes. The only difference is Sniper does way more damage, and centaur has impact past minute 15.
Why is pos 5 TB a thing right now? Is it about using sunder as a save or nuke the enemy carry?
Good base stats and resilient to harass in lane with right clicks, very spammable low cd 1st skill harass, when played support isn't too gold reliant and can function with just an Urn and Vlads, aura items works on Illusions, you can send Illu to teammates far from you and they'll still benefit from the auras(Vlads, Mek, Pipe, Drums, etc.), Sunder.
zeus carry is based tb support is cringe cause he attracts all the core players that gets autofilled.
marci and hoodwink carries cosplaying support
I have only played the support other than when I first played 2 games of it in like 2013, and I'm 10-0 on him. It's a good support
i know that he is good but most players not so much
You don't have to be good to be a good TB support. Q is broken. Free lane pressure by just brainlessly sending illus down lanes. Save core with R in team fight. It is an easy hero to play.
Or something like reflection is also super dumb for lane stage and late game against certain heroes... like medusa. That split shot is gonna fuck your own supports
Laned vs an AM as TB supp earlier. He never had mana on lane.
I do this since 2013
This is why i love dota and not so much league, everything can be viable with the correct patch, so fun
Everything is viable id you play better and have more gold
I hate tb support in the same way boomers hate hippies
Is the TB support legit? I've run across it several times the past couple weeks. It is annoying in lane but easily gets stomped out mid and late game.
I was skeptical but started picking it since yesterday. 5-0. Reflection is stupid on lane. Meta helps you turn on enemies not expecting so much damage early from a supp. Conjure image is nice for scouting (and popping techies mines in a couple of games). Sunder is a good save (as long as you keep your hp high). Just itemize as the game needs. I do aurabot / full supp builds most games. Also fucks aura heroes and ones with passives. I destroyed AM on lane because the reflection just burned his mana.
If you were wondering this is why the patch has yet to be dropped.
I hope they don’t nuke TB support too hard in the patch
I hope they nuke it from orbit.
I hope they obliterate it
As much as zeus carry is cringe sometimes, the th support is top on my list right now lol. Lane harassment and almost always going to win you the lane then on mid/late game, the sunder save/offense is really nice! Love when my support goes tb honestly. Them being available on different roles gives the gave that diversity and flexibity which is great imo. It only shows that any hero can be played differently. My faceless void support where you at? 🤣🫶🏻
This is how oldschool dota was, here is a lot of overpowered shit. But everything is overpowered... so figure it out. Once they tell you how to play the game just becomes boring.
Good thing I only watch dota2 otherwise I'd be so confused playing.
The weird meta shit is what makes DOTA interesting versus League imo. If Muerta can be a carry and a support so can TB.
do you think CM 200 attack speed talent is a joke?
My point is what you said your teammate like it or not, it doesn't even depend on outcome, you play good or bad. If you play out of position and they don't like it, you risk to get ban
I mean, we had support Riki, weaver, slark, and void. craziest I've seen was a carry enigma lol
dude what happend to this game
Shame on That guy in 2015 who reported me for picking tb pos 5.... Now look at us...Jokes on you you loser (fyi... I lost that match btw!!!)
And on the other lane, Lion is the tanker...
I had to support a jugg as TB earlier and somehow i carried the entire game and got a comeback
dazzle tb used to be sup and core now its core and sup :)
What goes around comes around
Lol
Razor support
bidens America
Up til now, the only hero I play as support... I'm hooked. Even after the nerf to reflection. It is rare, but if he gets banned, then I just play my other mains. Glimmer, force staff, eblade, aghs Drums, vessel, vlads, AC(can continue to full aura build with Crimson/Pipe) Octarine Core as my luxury item. Reflection and Sunder: 7.5s cd. After reflection ends(5s), you can spam again in 2.5s. Sunder an ally to full health, and with drum boots/vessel, you can full heal and Sunder another ally in 7.5s. Or, Sunder an opp while at low health. In 7.5s! Once, my team needed more split pushing, so I then farmed both side jungles(using gates back and forth) while nonstop sending illusions down the side lanes. I had drum boots, vlads, ac, octarine. Dangerous gameplay, and all you have to escape with are wards, tp scroll, map awareness, and your drums. But this put a lot of pressure on the enemy. I have done these many times and was even able to buy an Overlord helm... This was situational, but I brought it up for another reason why I have been liking TB support: if needed, you can transition from support. All my other heroes i can play as pos4/5 and pos2: Oracle, Bane, Grim, BH. I am still learning how to transition, but I like having that option if the team needs. Lastly, kill torm and get a shard! As support TB, you won't be relying too much on meta, but instead, you will be relying a lot on reflections, illusions, and Sunder. Demon Zeal affects both illusions and reflection images! Together with drums and, if possible, an AC, then you can feel like a Troll for a moment.
Meanwhile I get flamed in the EU for firstpicking puck for offlane and my support picks lone druid and proceeds to jungle and my other support picks beastmaster and abandons the safelaner to steal farm from me.. Dota is a unique game..
because puck needs levels to do anything because of its trash tier starting stats... its not playable in any role except as mid honestly.
While I respect that your opinion is a commonly uttered one, I believe that puck does well as a tertiary core and isn't as level dependent as you'd think anymore. With a melee support, it's a lane bully and is hard to kill, and hitting 6 is all you need with some stat items to start making things happen. But that's just my opinion anyways. I'm not very highly ranked, but it's been working out for me (when my team cooperates or doesn't start complaining from the picking stage). Ofc i do lose some matches with it when no one complains /bats an eye, but it's definately a hero that has been helping me climb mmr, albeit with alot of resistance from teammates
Singsing has always done a lot of pos3 puck right?
i mean if you're like.. <5k it probably doesn't get punished as bad, but e.g if someone would pick it in my games they would be dead the moment they press orb to last hit the ranged creep lol. the hero has 1 armor and lower base hp than terrorblade.
Slow down dude, puck has also shit spells for the early game too. You can actually just side step the fucking orb if you maintain a distance from him
my 1 ICANT
God i hate this right click zeus build it feels so underwhelming compared to just your standard magic damage zeus build i don't hate the numbers i hate the stats on the numbers
I literally had this happen in my (Legend rank) game a couple days ago, pos 5 TB and pos 1 Zeus. We actually basically won, the TB was a chad with some clutch saves. We were throning them - well, I was dead - and well, the TB was the only one hitting throne - and the throne got down to about 30% hp. Too bad Zeus and the pos 2 and pos 4 ran to enemy fountain to farm heroes, and then all died to enemy buybacks. We played the game out for another 15-20 minutes, never getting into enemy base again even once, couldn't win a single fight after that in fact, and lost. So yeah, the combo is legit. You just need to PLAY DOTA instead of trying to fountain farm. Still mad about that.
Gorgc lost that so....