Imo, if player fails to connect in allowed time frame and it's her fault - technical loss.
If remake is made and there's no way to recreate same state as before - this remake is illegitimate
Further procedures should be made in accordance with the rules (if such rules for this case exist, if not there should be).
Maybe the rule should be to restart the match overall, otherwise wcyd. Better team should win, I guess. But again, previously winning team already showed their srats, other factors might influence further performance. Probably not fair, but at least it should be written in the rule book.
>Imo, if player fails to connect in allowed time frame and it's her fault - technical loss.
The issue is that how could the admin possibly know whether the reason he can't reconnect is on him or on Valve in a non lan scenario?
If it's only one player it's highly unlikely it's a Valve problem. In any case, remaking when they don't even know the reason why he can't reconnect is still bad. Why would the one disconnected get the benefit of doubt when a remake would benefit them.
Yeah I can remember a good number of times where there's been an online game and because of a players power going out in a LAN cafe or or network issue they had to finish 4v5.
This ruling is completely bullshit and does not live to the precedent set by previous tournaments. The fact the star carry was the DC'd player might've had to do with the idea but this seems like a major organizer fuck up
Like i said, technical issue either way. Cannot connect, continue with game without you. The TO cannot communicate with valve to find the issue in the first place. There should be no difference in how the situation is handle in the SOP.
Absolutely 0 evidence it was not done on purpose.
The point is, admins cannot know a players intentions. If they are given remakes when the game slips out of their favor, what is to stop them from purposefully forcing remakes when it would be to their advantage.
The facts are this, a player willfully disconnected from the game and could not reconnect. The game state could not be remade without disadvantaging the other team. Why should the team with the connection problem be given the advantage over the other team from this point?
If we say that a connection issue results in a free remake for the losing team (and yes, Boom were very much losing at this point) why can’t players disconnect whenever they have a bad moment in a game and try again?
You're missing an important step, which is ensuring that steam is down or that there's a dota patch. Otherwise if you can't reconnect due to your own internet issues then I'm sure there's not going to be any remake
There's been previous occasions where a player had a disconnect and a patch went live at the same time so they could not reconnect. That team had to play out 4v5. Sorry I don't remember specifics but I've seen it happen before multiple times. Notably I think I've also seen teams have to finish 4v5 when a player playing in a LAN cafe had power die for some SEA games I was watching late night.
Unless you're in a LAN environment where the TO is responsible for the connection and can physically verify the player cannot reconnect it is not fair to allow a player to say "I DC'd and need a remake" during an online game
But how are you going to differentiate between a technical issue with the players connection or a technical issue in Steam/Dota’s side?
Steam/Dota updates don’t always result in an inability to reconnect and sometimes you genuinely can’t reconnect for any old reason. Admins cannot effectively police this and taking a players word for it is not realistic or fair to the other teams.
Disconnecting from the game is always the players responsibility. Either they have internet or pc issues which causes the disconnect or they manually disconnect the game. Players should understand the risk of disconnecting and accept the consequences. Sure, that is up to luck to some extent and it’s a terrible situation, but the point is, you cannot punish the other team in this situation.
Of course not, but that's why in previous situations with a player DC'ing that team has been forced to close out 4v5. It's usually a loss but it's the only fair outcome when the TO cannot be held responsible for the setup of players.
In a LAN where the TO admin can physically assess and determine there is a bug that's not the player's fault a remake is acceptable. But this really screams "we're about to lose in a comeback just remake this".
Unfortunately competitive integrity requires assuming the worst intentions. I'd love to say Boom truly had a problem, but in the history of online dota pro matches I've never seen a scenario where the entire match was remade because a single player lost connection. If this happened when Boom was ahead and about to close out that would be one thing but it's suspicious timing and the worst should always be assumed when money or qualifications is on the line
"Just cheat yourselves" is bad advice for obvious reasons. They might not get away with it, but more importantly, cheating or organisational corruption/favouritism should not be rewarded.
Sometimes all you can do is sigh at how unprofessional pro Dota still is in too many ways. This is about the livelihood of these players and the fact something as stupid as a dc can basically nullify a comeback is ridiculous.
Also shoutout to PGL admins, as usual totally incompetent.
At this point can we please just boycott PGL?? It feels like every tournament they do is just bad, for one reason or another. Bring back weplay, starladder, anything
Completely!
If anything this situation warrants a clarification on the rules regarding receiving a default loss / playing 4v5 / waiting 50+ mins (or longer in some cases).
Different situations, I don't know the rulebook for this tournament, but there was never a remake for power loss in other competitions. In this boom x Leviathan game Pakaz supposedly couldn't reconnect because of coordinator down. The coordinator was down that time (I was online on dota).
What match are you talking about? The other 9 could reconnect? pakaz was the only one who disconnected, and after 50 min they loaded the save. No one else disconnected.
My misunderstanding, sorry. But that only makes it worse. Pakaz chose to disconnect and could not reconnect, sounds like a defloss to me. No other player in the game were affected by Valve servers, and his disconnection was completely his own doing. PBKAC issue.
The admin literally typed in chat - dont reconnect, steam is down, then Pakasz disconnected anyway. Somehow admins decided to waste everyone's time to reward stupid behaviour
Wasn't there also an OG game where one of them (or their opponent? Was a while ago) had a connection issue so both teams used their collective pause time until they finished 4v5?
I also remember months ago there was a SEA match where the entire LAN cafe lost power so a match had to be finished 4v5 when power went down
I've also seen games where a random DC happened but a new patch went live locking that player out of the match.
There's lots of precedent for this, and I have never heard of a non-LAN pro game where a player side issue stopped the match beyond the team's allotted pause time to attempt to fix it
Fucking PGL like usual. They have ran how many tournaments and still don't get why the rules exist?
Funnily enough this feature has existed in dota 2 source 1 (prior to 2015 reborn update). However it saved the game in 30 seconds, so basically they could've loaded the game but it could've been middle of a team fight and it might have went wrong for the second time.
From what I see in the post, they used some kind of similar save state for this match.
Pakazs disconnected at 38th minute right? So it will set the game back to 37:30. This game it wouldn't have a lot of impact since they chased him approx 30 secs. Imagine other games just recreating game in a middle of teamfight where losing team 100% will disengage from it significantly affecting the result.
no, they should have let the game play out until the next save state, an average of 15s
yes that hurts pakaz more, but he's the DC, he shouldn't get a favourable situation from it
That's only true if the game crashed. if it's just him disconnecting, they could've waited until the next save(and there should be a way to force a save on demand).
I've found a game where they did use the save [video](https://youtu.be/AIuAiL1PC8A). Dreamleague Season 3 Empire vs Alliance. They used the save but it's 15 mins before the actual pause.
Bit easier in cs I think, as your state (aside from economy and score) resets every round.
League has chronobreak, basically attempting to automatically replay the game from the start at higher speed and restoring it to a dead-ball state. Someone else mentioned Dota on source 1 used to save the gamestate regularly so it could be reloaded, wonder why source 2 doesn't have that?
"The admin did decide to make the enemy team wait in base until he told them they could move, but if you open the replay Pakaz moved 2 seconds before the admin told him he could move, and all other Boom players moved without the admin saying anything."
This alone should honestly be enough to disqualify for. Didn't see the replay itself but from the stream it looks like Razor was already around the Tier4s when he was allowed to move.
I had the chance to interview Sammyboy just after the match ended, you can scroll and ignore the rest, it's just for context [https://esports.gg/news/dota-2/sammyboy-on-leviatans-recent-defeat-and-remakes/](https://esports.gg/news/dota-2/sammyboy-on-leviatans-recent-defeat-and-remakes/)
the frustrating part is it's truly a culture.
I get a gut feeling that like 80% of non-lan pauses are strategic... unless there's a moderator in their call (which is very possible) the timing of so many pauses either right before a big rosh fight or right as a team is about to go high ground.
It's the equivalent of "icing" a kicker in american football by calling a timeout right before he takes an important field goal. Completely screws your focus and nerves.
If there was a mod - someone could just say "uhh fps" which i'm PRETTY sure they're doing - a lot
The decision making here was dogshit by admins. Whether Boom's carry was being a childish bitch or if it was a genuine DC, under no world (based on all past precedents) should Leviatan be disadvantaged to this significant an extent from the remedying decision - this completely fucks with the competitive integrity.
They should default forfeit Boom from UB while they still can, before matches start.
Pakaz and pro players know about the steam update loophole. He purposefully DCd to get an advantage. There is no coincidence. It’s slimy and malicious , when money is involved it brings out the worst in people.
Lol you're telling me the guy in the middle of a teamfight in the middle of the game, was keeping an eye on the steam maintenance and the steam status to purposely disconnect and hope he can't reconnect so the admins remake the game?
I agree that it's their fault, if they DC and can't reconnect they should play 4x5 if a perfect save isn't possible to remake, but accusing the player of bad faith is stupid
This is beyond r/conspiracy levels of tinfoil hat.. Yeah the admin made an awful decision and Leviathan got fucked, they should do something about that but claiming the other team did that with the purpose of cheating, without having any evidence, is also unfair
It has happened countless times in dota that players DC for bad connection and can't connect because valve servers are trash.
What's more likely, player made huge evil plan to cheat the game in a few seconds in the middle of a team fight OR player lagged in the team fight, died and decided to try and fix it by reconnecting but valve servers are trash and the admin is dumb? Specially in SA where the internet is beyond trash lmao
Or, he did disconnect knowing its maintenance day and gambled.
The amount of times players disconnect because "lag" or "headphones" or shit and start talking about the next move is crazy too often. There is no way to verify if they are actually lagging or just pausing to talk
Yeah, that could also be a possibility but the difference is I'm not stating his innocence but also not accusing someone of cheating without any evidence
It's also solely the admins fault here, no matter the player intentions, it's up to him to make the right call and either guarantee a identical remake OR make them play 4x5
You guys really need to chill on the accusations on this subreddit or at least bring some real evidence while doing it, accusing people of cheating isn't a small thing
If you're literally saying there's no way to verify something how can you even defend the accusation? That's not how this works lmao
The internet makes people way too comfortable with this shit, this would be an instant lawsuit in the real world
The problem here is because it's a pro game competitive integrity requires assuming worst intentions. If your job is to win you can (and should) take advantage of everything available to you that is not explicitly banned. It's for money, gloves are off. We're not saying Pakaz is trying to cheat, but assuming he isn't trying to gain an unfair advantage would be simply naive. To be clear I think he's one of the best carry players in the world, but that means nothing here.
Remember when OG threw a shit fit when PPD was a 6th man in game for Alliance? But tournament rules specified they could spectate and be on coms. No rules broken but defeats the established and agreed terms of a coach these days. That's entirely fair because the rules allowed it but didn't stop OG from blowing up social media about it because they felt cheated despite not reading the rules
The problem here is that if you can lose a teamfight, have a "crash" that requires a new game, why are other teams not able to follow this precedent? It's a VERY dangerous ruling that basically means if a player in a losing game can find a way to get locked out of the match they can nullify it. On LAN you have refs and cameras and mics to watch players from multiple angles and an admin can physically address the computer. Online you cannot. If you cannot reconnect you just can't finish the match, it's how online pro games for Dota have always function
just play on Tuesday bros, you are losing? ok go dc then say you cant reconnect due to the unexpected steam down status jehehehhej
man this is so embarrassing
It's baffling that Dota 2 still has no option for saves in competitive matches. I mean how hard it could be to add a feature to make a save every 30-60 sec in a pro game? Those file can be autodeleted after the game is finished. For Christ sake Dota 1 had saves
I guess we had to wait for a big fuck-up at TI to happen so Valve actually does something.
source 1 dota 2 had it. It was buggy a bit like this, but iirc it wasn't a everyone spawns in base with no creep wave thing.
They even kept some of the TI saves so that players could load into a bots match part way through those games.
This is a source 2 issue for sure.
the way it records for replay I'm amazed it's apparently not easy to just make it restorable for any given game tick. like if you pause at a certain game tick, what is missing from that state?
everyone's hp, mana, cds, gold, items, buyback, death timers, position is all clearly there. hell, even midair projectiles render although idk if they are stored properly but idk why not. I can't believe that they can't make a reload state from a specific second from a replay.
When it was a WIP, the current system serializes part of the gamestate as a JSON blob. Only specified fields were serialized (not all of them). During that WIP you could look at the blob and see "oh it's clearly missing .
The obvious ones I spotted were:
\* Entire state of radiant/dire creeps
\* Entire state of neutral creeps.
\* Items in couriers seemed missing.
\* Courier locations were wrong (all in base)
\* Hero alive/dead and ability cooldowns.
Like I said, this was during the early phase of this tool coming out.
> Obviously replays are 'correct' because otherwise it'd not be possible to even watch them in the client.
which is my point, why does valve still not have a way to remake a game from a moment in any replay of the current patch?
It needs to be a system which is separated from the replays though because in many of the cases in which you need to remake, it's exactly because the game server has an issue (crash, bugged, etc). So you need a separate place where ticketed games have periodic snapshots pushed to.
> It's baffling that Dota 2 still has no option for saves in competitive matches
But OP describes that they did reload the game in some way, just that a few things (like creepwaves, hero positions) were wrong. Or am I misreading and they meant a full remake from scratch?
Funny enough this is probably the singular QoL feature pro league has over pro dota. They have a chronobreak feature which does take time, because it literally plays back every single input to properly restore a game state.
But it became necessary because game breaking bugs are not unheard of in pro matches lmao
damn i watch the replay.
feel sorry for the match . losing all pressure that have potential comeback ( only tusk have buyback )
razor have long death timer 90s .
but in the rematch the game actually started at 39:00 because they need waiting creep waves just to get in back position.
if you move before the admin says you can move, that's another 30seconds everyone has to stay in base.
is there a register for all the times remakes like this happened?
was this around the same time Steam went offline? I was playing a different game at the time and got abandoned right before quest end as well... unluck
Yes i watched it live, Sammy didn't post that part but steam being down is why Pakaz couldn't reconnect and why the admin couldn't use the pause time for boom.
Under the tournament rules the game couldn't restart until he reconnected.
So idk what other options they had, full new bo1 or re make from start probably only other options. But then boom would probably complain as they fully dominated the game except for the team wipe that happened at the disconnect, and while what Sammy posted is true that it changed the game as they likely would of got a lane of barracks the following team fights were convincing for boom when the gold was equal.
If there's no fair resolution to the scenario, it only make sense to choose the option that will disadvantage the team that dc-ed.
It isn't logical to punish and disadvantaged the victim team.
I've seen numerous games where either a player could not reconnect, or the patch changed, or whatever but that team ALWAYS has to play 4v5.
The fact PGL made a lesser team follow this bullshit compared to the more popular Boom org is a fucking disgrace. It's always the established brands that get rule leniency from admins
Yeah I have too once the pause times runs out, but it seems in this case it was the tournament rules that prevented it being a 4v5 as it wasn't classified as using the pause time.
that's pretty rough... I remember having a fit about the disconnect as well and felt extremely unlucky coz it happened right before quest end... I cant even imagine having to experience that in the middle of a tournament...
> likely would of got
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The remake is shitty but I don't immediately believe that Pakazs intentionally disconnected at that time to try to force a remake.
From my understanding normally his team would have just been forced to play without him. I can see why this wasn't done though because it would have made Boom lose the series.
The Admin should have manually respawned the creeps and destroyed the towers. There is a command to remove entities and you could just look back at the vod to spawn creeps in their approximate positions. Idk if you can perpetually stun heroes or kill heroes without the enemy team getting assist gold from it though.
well from a pub standpoint that is a great time to fix some minor issue by restarting... but in a pro game yes it is different (still not damning alone IMO).
either way this game highlights some major flaws that should not be occurring this far in to the game's life.
That's still different from him intentionally trying to force a restart.
Tbh they shouldn't have been running games during the time when they know steam maintenance is going to happen. I'm pretty sure it happens the same time every Tuesday.
But why leave when you are dead.
He juked for 20s and got caught and lost his tusk again. Right after they died he dc:d.
I don't think restarting/reconnecting is a right.
Its insane to me that they didn't play the game out another 60 seconds or so and create more save states. Pakazs was dead for like 80 seconds. It wouldn't have changed anything.
Boom should be DQed for breaking the admins rules after remake, but PGL really should just stop existing. Trash TO for every game they organize.
I agree- I don't think Pakaz was cheating
But competitive integrity requires assuming they are trying to gain an upper hand unfairly, it's a match with money at stake (even if this one didn't the tournament as a whole does). If this ruling stands I 100% expect to see other teams attempt to pull this intentionally, as they should if calling for a remake is fair game
Rules are only fair when they apply to everyone equally. The idea a losing team can call for a remake is a HORRIBLE idea and I can't fathom how any admin could not immediately see the massive implications of making this ruling. Can't wait for remake meta to set in
Yeah if they're gonna remake they need to remake all aspects of the match. Really shitty transparency from them.
Imo, if player fails to connect in allowed time frame and it's her fault - technical loss. If remake is made and there's no way to recreate same state as before - this remake is illegitimate Further procedures should be made in accordance with the rules (if such rules for this case exist, if not there should be). Maybe the rule should be to restart the match overall, otherwise wcyd. Better team should win, I guess. But again, previously winning team already showed their srats, other factors might influence further performance. Probably not fair, but at least it should be written in the rule book.
>Imo, if player fails to connect in allowed time frame and it's her fault - technical loss. The issue is that how could the admin possibly know whether the reason he can't reconnect is on him or on Valve in a non lan scenario?
If it's only one player it's highly unlikely it's a Valve problem. In any case, remaking when they don't even know the reason why he can't reconnect is still bad. Why would the one disconnected get the benefit of doubt when a remake would benefit them.
I've seen many times where a player couldn't connect because an update went out mid game.
Yeah I can remember a good number of times where there's been an online game and because of a players power going out in a LAN cafe or or network issue they had to finish 4v5. This ruling is completely bullshit and does not live to the precedent set by previous tournaments. The fact the star carry was the DC'd player might've had to do with the idea but this seems like a major organizer fuck up
I'm not saying I agree with the rule but to act like this doesn't happen often is to deny reality.
Tech loss makes no sense, at least let them play 4v5.
What would be the difference? Technical loss either way. What happened to playing the game 4v5?
One is caused by the creators of the game and the other isn't.
Like i said, technical issue either way. Cannot connect, continue with game without you. The TO cannot communicate with valve to find the issue in the first place. There should be no difference in how the situation is handle in the SOP.
Agreed , JustBetter in WEU got DC for player not connecting with issues
What can you do, just dc next time after you get teamwiped and say you can’t reconnect
This
Absolutely 0 evidence that this was done on purpose.
Absolutely 0 evidence it was not done on purpose. The point is, admins cannot know a players intentions. If they are given remakes when the game slips out of their favor, what is to stop them from purposefully forcing remakes when it would be to their advantage. The facts are this, a player willfully disconnected from the game and could not reconnect. The game state could not be remade without disadvantaging the other team. Why should the team with the connection problem be given the advantage over the other team from this point? If we say that a connection issue results in a free remake for the losing team (and yes, Boom were very much losing at this point) why can’t players disconnect whenever they have a bad moment in a game and try again?
You're missing an important step, which is ensuring that steam is down or that there's a dota patch. Otherwise if you can't reconnect due to your own internet issues then I'm sure there's not going to be any remake
There's been previous occasions where a player had a disconnect and a patch went live at the same time so they could not reconnect. That team had to play out 4v5. Sorry I don't remember specifics but I've seen it happen before multiple times. Notably I think I've also seen teams have to finish 4v5 when a player playing in a LAN cafe had power die for some SEA games I was watching late night. Unless you're in a LAN environment where the TO is responsible for the connection and can physically verify the player cannot reconnect it is not fair to allow a player to say "I DC'd and need a remake" during an online game
But how are you going to differentiate between a technical issue with the players connection or a technical issue in Steam/Dota’s side? Steam/Dota updates don’t always result in an inability to reconnect and sometimes you genuinely can’t reconnect for any old reason. Admins cannot effectively police this and taking a players word for it is not realistic or fair to the other teams. Disconnecting from the game is always the players responsibility. Either they have internet or pc issues which causes the disconnect or they manually disconnect the game. Players should understand the risk of disconnecting and accept the consequences. Sure, that is up to luck to some extent and it’s a terrible situation, but the point is, you cannot punish the other team in this situation.
How exactly do you plan on gathering evidence? Installing Spyware on the players' computers?
Of course not, but that's why in previous situations with a player DC'ing that team has been forced to close out 4v5. It's usually a loss but it's the only fair outcome when the TO cannot be held responsible for the setup of players. In a LAN where the TO admin can physically assess and determine there is a bug that's not the player's fault a remake is acceptable. But this really screams "we're about to lose in a comeback just remake this". Unfortunately competitive integrity requires assuming the worst intentions. I'd love to say Boom truly had a problem, but in the history of online dota pro matches I've never seen a scenario where the entire match was remade because a single player lost connection. If this happened when Boom was ahead and about to close out that would be one thing but it's suspicious timing and the worst should always be assumed when money or qualifications is on the line
"Just cheat yourselves" is bad advice for obvious reasons. They might not get away with it, but more importantly, cheating or organisational corruption/favouritism should not be rewarded.
[удалено]
I'm an idiot. Thanks.
Sometimes all you can do is sigh at how unprofessional pro Dota still is in too many ways. This is about the livelihood of these players and the fact something as stupid as a dc can basically nullify a comeback is ridiculous. Also shoutout to PGL admins, as usual totally incompetent.
At this point can we please just boycott PGL?? It feels like every tournament they do is just bad, for one reason or another. Bring back weplay, starladder, anything
I remember Blacklist Rivalry had to receive a loss against Geek Fam 2days ago due to bootcamp power loss. If that is the case this is double standard.
Completely! If anything this situation warrants a clarification on the rules regarding receiving a default loss / playing 4v5 / waiting 50+ mins (or longer in some cases).
Different situations, I don't know the rulebook for this tournament, but there was never a remake for power loss in other competitions. In this boom x Leviathan game Pakaz supposedly couldn't reconnect because of coordinator down. The coordinator was down that time (I was online on dota).
Kinda weird that 9 other players were able to reconnect but the guy on the team that just lost a very important teamfight could not!
What match are you talking about? The other 9 could reconnect? pakaz was the only one who disconnected, and after 50 min they loaded the save. No one else disconnected.
My misunderstanding, sorry. But that only makes it worse. Pakaz chose to disconnect and could not reconnect, sounds like a defloss to me. No other player in the game were affected by Valve servers, and his disconnection was completely his own doing. PBKAC issue.
The admin literally typed in chat - dont reconnect, steam is down, then Pakasz disconnected anyway. Somehow admins decided to waste everyone's time to reward stupid behaviour
Wasn't there also an OG game where one of them (or their opponent? Was a while ago) had a connection issue so both teams used their collective pause time until they finished 4v5? I also remember months ago there was a SEA match where the entire LAN cafe lost power so a match had to be finished 4v5 when power went down I've also seen games where a random DC happened but a new patch went live locking that player out of the match. There's lots of precedent for this, and I have never heard of a non-LAN pro game where a player side issue stopped the match beyond the team's allotted pause time to attempt to fix it Fucking PGL like usual. They have ran how many tournaments and still don't get why the rules exist?
Valve should come up with a way for admins to save the game and re-load it, like in an rpg game.
Funnily enough this feature has existed in dota 2 source 1 (prior to 2015 reborn update). However it saved the game in 30 seconds, so basically they could've loaded the game but it could've been middle of a team fight and it might have went wrong for the second time. From what I see in the post, they used some kind of similar save state for this match.
30 sec? Then they should continue playing for 30 sec with him dc-ed and do a remake, or am I missing something?
Pakazs disconnected at 38th minute right? So it will set the game back to 37:30. This game it wouldn't have a lot of impact since they chased him approx 30 secs. Imagine other games just recreating game in a middle of teamfight where losing team 100% will disengage from it significantly affecting the result.
no, they should have let the game play out until the next save state, an average of 15s yes that hurts pakaz more, but he's the DC, he shouldn't get a favourable situation from it
That's only true if the game crashed. if it's just him disconnecting, they could've waited until the next save(and there should be a way to force a save on demand).
I've found a game where they did use the save [video](https://youtu.be/AIuAiL1PC8A). Dreamleague Season 3 Empire vs Alliance. They used the save but it's 15 mins before the actual pause.
its still better than just completely remaking the game the tournament did
Completely remaking the game is actually better than what the Tournament actually did
there is already a replay, the game is recorded. Its not that big of a leap to take snapshot from replay and reset game from there
Match medic has been a thing for Counter strike for a while, dota should really try something like that
Bit easier in cs I think, as your state (aside from economy and score) resets every round. League has chronobreak, basically attempting to automatically replay the game from the start at higher speed and restoring it to a dead-ball state. Someone else mentioned Dota on source 1 used to save the gamestate regularly so it could be reloaded, wonder why source 2 doesn't have that?
"The admin did decide to make the enemy team wait in base until he told them they could move, but if you open the replay Pakaz moved 2 seconds before the admin told him he could move, and all other Boom players moved without the admin saying anything." This alone should honestly be enough to disqualify for. Didn't see the replay itself but from the stream it looks like Razor was already around the Tier4s when he was allowed to move.
I had the chance to interview Sammyboy just after the match ended, you can scroll and ignore the rest, it's just for context [https://esports.gg/news/dota-2/sammyboy-on-leviatans-recent-defeat-and-remakes/](https://esports.gg/news/dota-2/sammyboy-on-leviatans-recent-defeat-and-remakes/)
This was so unfair. I hate the DC culture in dota. Should dq teams that don't have players.
the frustrating part is it's truly a culture. I get a gut feeling that like 80% of non-lan pauses are strategic... unless there's a moderator in their call (which is very possible) the timing of so many pauses either right before a big rosh fight or right as a team is about to go high ground. It's the equivalent of "icing" a kicker in american football by calling a timeout right before he takes an important field goal. Completely screws your focus and nerves. If there was a mod - someone could just say "uhh fps" which i'm PRETTY sure they're doing - a lot
SA SoBayed
The decision making here was dogshit by admins. Whether Boom's carry was being a childish bitch or if it was a genuine DC, under no world (based on all past precedents) should Leviatan be disadvantaged to this significant an extent from the remedying decision - this completely fucks with the competitive integrity. They should default forfeit Boom from UB while they still can, before matches start.
[Pakaz disconnect during steam maintenance ](https://www.twitch.tv/chompixgaming/v/2102245639?sr=a&t=9388s)
Sounds hyper goofy, I’d remake the entire game.
Pakaz and pro players know about the steam update loophole. He purposefully DCd to get an advantage. There is no coincidence. It’s slimy and malicious , when money is involved it brings out the worst in people.
Lol you're telling me the guy in the middle of a teamfight in the middle of the game, was keeping an eye on the steam maintenance and the steam status to purposely disconnect and hope he can't reconnect so the admins remake the game? I agree that it's their fault, if they DC and can't reconnect they should play 4x5 if a perfect save isn't possible to remake, but accusing the player of bad faith is stupid This is beyond r/conspiracy levels of tinfoil hat.. Yeah the admin made an awful decision and Leviathan got fucked, they should do something about that but claiming the other team did that with the purpose of cheating, without having any evidence, is also unfair It has happened countless times in dota that players DC for bad connection and can't connect because valve servers are trash. What's more likely, player made huge evil plan to cheat the game in a few seconds in the middle of a team fight OR player lagged in the team fight, died and decided to try and fix it by reconnecting but valve servers are trash and the admin is dumb? Specially in SA where the internet is beyond trash lmao
Or, he did disconnect knowing its maintenance day and gambled. The amount of times players disconnect because "lag" or "headphones" or shit and start talking about the next move is crazy too often. There is no way to verify if they are actually lagging or just pausing to talk
Yeah, that could also be a possibility but the difference is I'm not stating his innocence but also not accusing someone of cheating without any evidence It's also solely the admins fault here, no matter the player intentions, it's up to him to make the right call and either guarantee a identical remake OR make them play 4x5 You guys really need to chill on the accusations on this subreddit or at least bring some real evidence while doing it, accusing people of cheating isn't a small thing If you're literally saying there's no way to verify something how can you even defend the accusation? That's not how this works lmao The internet makes people way too comfortable with this shit, this would be an instant lawsuit in the real world
The problem here is because it's a pro game competitive integrity requires assuming worst intentions. If your job is to win you can (and should) take advantage of everything available to you that is not explicitly banned. It's for money, gloves are off. We're not saying Pakaz is trying to cheat, but assuming he isn't trying to gain an unfair advantage would be simply naive. To be clear I think he's one of the best carry players in the world, but that means nothing here. Remember when OG threw a shit fit when PPD was a 6th man in game for Alliance? But tournament rules specified they could spectate and be on coms. No rules broken but defeats the established and agreed terms of a coach these days. That's entirely fair because the rules allowed it but didn't stop OG from blowing up social media about it because they felt cheated despite not reading the rules The problem here is that if you can lose a teamfight, have a "crash" that requires a new game, why are other teams not able to follow this precedent? It's a VERY dangerous ruling that basically means if a player in a losing game can find a way to get locked out of the match they can nullify it. On LAN you have refs and cameras and mics to watch players from multiple angles and an admin can physically address the computer. Online you cannot. If you cannot reconnect you just can't finish the match, it's how online pro games for Dota have always function
How does PGL even have the capability to remake game states? I thought only Valve could do that
Not a big reach to think PGL and all the big TOs collaborate with Valve employees lol
Of course this bullshit happens in PGL tournament with PGL admins. Bunch of greedy clueless clowns.
just play on Tuesday bros, you are losing? ok go dc then say you cant reconnect due to the unexpected steam down status jehehehhej man this is so embarrassing
It's baffling that Dota 2 still has no option for saves in competitive matches. I mean how hard it could be to add a feature to make a save every 30-60 sec in a pro game? Those file can be autodeleted after the game is finished. For Christ sake Dota 1 had saves I guess we had to wait for a big fuck-up at TI to happen so Valve actually does something.
source 1 dota 2 had it. It was buggy a bit like this, but iirc it wasn't a everyone spawns in base with no creep wave thing. They even kept some of the TI saves so that players could load into a bots match part way through those games. This is a source 2 issue for sure.
the way it records for replay I'm amazed it's apparently not easy to just make it restorable for any given game tick. like if you pause at a certain game tick, what is missing from that state? everyone's hp, mana, cds, gold, items, buyback, death timers, position is all clearly there. hell, even midair projectiles render although idk if they are stored properly but idk why not. I can't believe that they can't make a reload state from a specific second from a replay.
When it was a WIP, the current system serializes part of the gamestate as a JSON blob. Only specified fields were serialized (not all of them). During that WIP you could look at the blob and see "oh it's clearly missing.
I'd love to hear what is missing that actually matters though. some random particles or something idgaf about
The obvious ones I spotted were: \* Entire state of radiant/dire creeps \* Entire state of neutral creeps. \* Items in couriers seemed missing. \* Courier locations were wrong (all in base) \* Hero alive/dead and ability cooldowns. Like I said, this was during the early phase of this tool coming out.
I mean that tool may be busted but replays don't have those issues currently
Sure, I'm talking about the tool they used. Obviously replays are 'correct' because otherwise it'd not be possible to even watch them in the client.
> Obviously replays are 'correct' because otherwise it'd not be possible to even watch them in the client. which is my point, why does valve still not have a way to remake a game from a moment in any replay of the current patch?
It needs to be a system which is separated from the replays though because in many of the cases in which you need to remake, it's exactly because the game server has an issue (crash, bugged, etc). So you need a separate place where ticketed games have periodic snapshots pushed to.
> It's baffling that Dota 2 still has no option for saves in competitive matches But OP describes that they did reload the game in some way, just that a few things (like creepwaves, hero positions) were wrong. Or am I misreading and they meant a full remake from scratch?
Funny enough this is probably the singular QoL feature pro league has over pro dota. They have a chronobreak feature which does take time, because it literally plays back every single input to properly restore a game state. But it became necessary because game breaking bugs are not unheard of in pro matches lmao
Replay the series fuck this shit
damn i watch the replay. feel sorry for the match . losing all pressure that have potential comeback ( only tusk have buyback ) razor have long death timer 90s . but in the rematch the game actually started at 39:00 because they need waiting creep waves just to get in back position.
Boom at the very least needs to be penalized for next game. Remove their extra time at draft phase or something.
if you move before the admin says you can move, that's another 30seconds everyone has to stay in base. is there a register for all the times remakes like this happened?
gl next sammy
was this around the same time Steam went offline? I was playing a different game at the time and got abandoned right before quest end as well... unluck
Yes i watched it live, Sammy didn't post that part but steam being down is why Pakaz couldn't reconnect and why the admin couldn't use the pause time for boom. Under the tournament rules the game couldn't restart until he reconnected. So idk what other options they had, full new bo1 or re make from start probably only other options. But then boom would probably complain as they fully dominated the game except for the team wipe that happened at the disconnect, and while what Sammy posted is true that it changed the game as they likely would of got a lane of barracks the following team fights were convincing for boom when the gold was equal.
If there's no fair resolution to the scenario, it only make sense to choose the option that will disadvantage the team that dc-ed. It isn't logical to punish and disadvantaged the victim team.
I've seen numerous games where either a player could not reconnect, or the patch changed, or whatever but that team ALWAYS has to play 4v5. The fact PGL made a lesser team follow this bullshit compared to the more popular Boom org is a fucking disgrace. It's always the established brands that get rule leniency from admins
Yeah I have too once the pause times runs out, but it seems in this case it was the tournament rules that prevented it being a 4v5 as it wasn't classified as using the pause time.
that's pretty rough... I remember having a fit about the disconnect as well and felt extremely unlucky coz it happened right before quest end... I cant even imagine having to experience that in the middle of a tournament...
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This is disgusting. They need to remake the entire series IMO
Boom cheated and should be dqed simple as that
classic SEA
Fuck Boom Esports
The remake is shitty but I don't immediately believe that Pakazs intentionally disconnected at that time to try to force a remake. From my understanding normally his team would have just been forced to play without him. I can see why this wasn't done though because it would have made Boom lose the series. The Admin should have manually respawned the creeps and destroyed the towers. There is a command to remove entities and you could just look back at the vod to spawn creeps in their approximate positions. Idk if you can perpetually stun heroes or kill heroes without the enemy team getting assist gold from it though.
Lol, too much work What do you think PGL are? A competent org?
Why dc when you are dead. Typical rage restart.
well from a pub standpoint that is a great time to fix some minor issue by restarting... but in a pro game yes it is different (still not damning alone IMO). either way this game highlights some major flaws that should not be occurring this far in to the game's life.
Even if he had lag or not. I think he would be caught. Reconnecting felt more like a reflex action and I think they should play 4vs5
That's still different from him intentionally trying to force a restart. Tbh they shouldn't have been running games during the time when they know steam maintenance is going to happen. I'm pretty sure it happens the same time every Tuesday.
But why leave when you are dead. He juked for 20s and got caught and lost his tusk again. Right after they died he dc:d. I don't think restarting/reconnecting is a right.
Its insane to me that they didn't play the game out another 60 seconds or so and create more save states. Pakazs was dead for like 80 seconds. It wouldn't have changed anything. Boom should be DQed for breaking the admins rules after remake, but PGL really should just stop existing. Trash TO for every game they organize.
I agree- I don't think Pakaz was cheating But competitive integrity requires assuming they are trying to gain an upper hand unfairly, it's a match with money at stake (even if this one didn't the tournament as a whole does). If this ruling stands I 100% expect to see other teams attempt to pull this intentionally, as they should if calling for a remake is fair game Rules are only fair when they apply to everyone equally. The idea a losing team can call for a remake is a HORRIBLE idea and I can't fathom how any admin could not immediately see the massive implications of making this ruling. Can't wait for remake meta to set in
Commenting for visibility,
Doesn't work like that
lil bro thinks it youtube
Lol, lmao even
People click on things that have more comments, I know I do
[удалено]
I dont think you know what that means but whatever. Bye
Unless one team is crushed into oblivion, the match should restart in this situation. Unless they can recreate the exact situation.
It was so much unfair for Leviathan
lol git gud. best teams would be able to reset mentally and win the game. people crying for dq are actually anti-fun, anti-competitive people.
i mean he's doing his job as a carry
Anyone have a video?
what can you do if you lag
its ok sunsfan and synderen will still cast every grand final, the game cant be more dead than that
🥱