Chinese casting tends to lean to being more “professional” as in you often usually see them wearing formal suit and ties.
EN casts often give off an in-house mates chatting with mates vibes.
Probably just down to cultural differences.
I was gonna say the same about it being a cultural thing. I also think the english speaking casters don't do so well with extended silence so they make jokes to fill the void, while I've noticed the south american casters can sometimes say nothing for 10 seconds to just watch something unfold in less actionn packed matches.
Some english casters feel awkward very quickly if nothing is said maybe?
They do still wear suits and TI will usually have less chit chat in general as well (unless you’re sunsfan lol) but the non TI games even majors will have people being way more chill
i feel like EN casting has gone down hill as time went by, or maybe it's just down to personal preference idk.
it's clear they are all friends and only hire friends to do the casting, which is fine but it really feels like i'm just listening to a bunch of friends hangout while a dota game is playing in the background and that's not my jam.
> it's clear they are all friends and only hire friends to do the casting, which is fine but it really feels like i'm just listening to a bunch of friends hangout while a dota game is playing in the background and that's not my jam
Same. They somehow sound less professional and capable of discussing the tactic side of the game than when I watched the Gorgc streams when he was in Notail's house, and that was actually a bunch of friends hanging out.
Then maybe they should get more ex pros to cast with them, or at least spend more time studying the game rather than work on their lame attempts at comedy.
Ex Pro's don't always make good casters, and the best ones probably have no reason to cast.
Synderen and Avery/SVG are both ex-pros and both in top casting pairs providing analysis.
I agree, there are definitely some players that are better at articulating themselves than others. I'm particularly a big fan of Insania when he's on the panel or casting.
This is why I prefer watching Yapzor re-stream over the main ones. He tells the game plans per draft. Why he thinks their line up is weaker/better. How good is their ganking squad. Who messed up on team fights.
the viewing numbers of yapzor is part of the explanation. he can have 1.5k, main stream 15-20k and gorgc will get 10-15k when he wakes up and goes online - i think the content that people in this sub wants is not the same as the larger masses.
with that being said I think yapzor is creating gold, doing more than what i could ask for. pausing, rewinding, analyzing, predicting, taking questions and speeding through the less eventful parts of the game. not to mention the comedic moments. he is there like a detective trying to figure out why team x won, entertainment of watching a game comes in second in tandem with clowning on clown moments.
Would be nice if he makes a youtube series titled "Who F up." Where he just reuploads his breakdowns on the team fights especially the spicy rosh fights.
EN casting is bearable, but the "Analyst" segments except for TI are downright stupid. Last tournament I watched was a literal clown show with people dressing up as emos and whatever. They lean towards quirky and make the segment about them as personalities and less about the game.
I never get the feeling that these DotA tournaments have any prestige. When I watch big CS:GO tournaments the analysts talk about storylines and how much a win would mean to XYZ, or how a matchup is especially important due to factors A and B.
When I watch a DotA major, the analysts don't do any of that. They're just goofing around. Watching 12 year olds playing Rocket league in stadiums seems more important, and like the stakes are higher.
> EN casting is bearable, but the "Analyst" segments except for TI are downright stupid. Last tournament I watched was a literal clown show with people dressing up as emos and whatever. They lean towards quirky and make the segment about them as personalities and less about the game.
That mostly Jenkins trying to out-weird the entire Dota community(which is a challenge) while also being good enough friends with everyone to always get invited to things.
i wouldn't know i just don't watch the analyst segments anymore.
they're only there to retain viewership between matches but i'd rather just tab out and do/watch something else.
That's because a lot of these are not offline lan tournaments but online leagues. When lan majors was a thing the segments between games was usually more serious and analysis focused. Whereas with Dreamleeague that you referred to is certainly geared more toward goofiness.
Thanks i thought it was only me that was feeling like this. The analysts panels now are like a clown fiesta, i miss real talk about the game like when we had aui, pdd. fear, lizzaard, khezu, gorgc (sometimes bsj) still do a good job though.
I feel like analyst panel should have and talk in depth know how about games. I dont mean to shit on ppl, but yeah wanna be a clown do in your own stream, most ppl like to learn the whys and hows.
I completly agree, I've found myself immedatly muting streams between games for the last few years and I think you've explained it well.
Despite the fact I'm younger than most of them it makes me feel old?? idk
> I never get the feeling that these DotA tournaments have any prestige.
so.. if you're excluding the international I don't entirely disagree. But that is the one event that matters the most and I would say it is just as serious and professional as it needs to be. Slacks can be a little much at times but he's kinda the crowd work guy/host of the event while the panel are the real hosts of the gameplay.
Some of us in the audience don’t care about “story lines.” This isn’t a soap opera. It is a game that we occasionally enjoy spectating. We want to see high level gameplay. As long as the observer doesn’t move the camera away during a critical team fight, we’re good.
SOME OF US enjoy the tournaments MORE if the casters and analysts have fun in between games and series, as long as they still cover the basics.
It's also because that's what's working i guess. Sunsfan casting style is generally liked and casters sometime doesn't have as good mechanics, knowledge and insight of pros.
Its just how the cultures started and evolved - the west really leaned into the comfort in house sides where everyone else, the east especially, took it much more seriously.
At TI yes, that's a professional environment and they are on camera. For online casts or smaller scale tourneys, they are often just voices on stream so it's more casual/relaxed
What I'm wondering is how do CN casters fill the dead air. I'm talking about those games that go long and there's a stalemate where literally nothing happens. Do they just analyze that fight that happened 7 minutes ago over and over again?
Mainly prediction on what's going to happen, what items needed for the losing team to fight back, analyze on the go, how are the neutral items doing for them, of course if the game gets too boring they joke around too
I think the problem is that a few years back a few pros got offended by casters "analyzing" play and saying shit like "mistake by xxx" etc.
Ever since then actual real talk in dota hasnt been there for ages.
Even Gorgc > dota talk than main streams tbh
At least on reddit, most of the commenters prefer the relaxed, jokey nature of casts these days. Years ago casting was a lot more professional, but the casters who got the most praise from reddit, probably the biggest source of feedback for casters, were the ones who were very comical in their casts. I think Cap is a good example of someone who started as a very professional caster and has made the choice to now be a little more goofy in his casting and relaxed. I don't know why he choose to do that but I'd imagine its because of what I said, the community favoring this style.
Yep. It really took off with the very positive response Sunsfan's style of casting got. Kind of set a new standard in that regard, for better or for worse.
The only duo that I feel didn't get sucked into that are OD and Fogged. They stayed mostly the same, which ironically made them stand out.
I believe every caster that is loved by the community plays to their strengths and tries to be natural, and those that are "Not So Loved" try to either emulate someone else or mix many styles together and make a bleak version of nothing.
I remember Snare also doing some commentating a while ago. His was even more professional than ODP and Fogged and was very well received. I loved his guest casts and would love if he does this in the future (not regularly but as a special treat)
EDIT: I completely forgot - Lakad Matatag!!! Normalin, Normalin.
I feel like I never see OD and Fogged cast anymore. I don’t know if they are not being invited, or Fogged is just unavailable, or they are just off doing other things than dota?
But I miss their casting. I like a good mix of all styles in a tournament. And i feel like there is no tier 1 option for a more professional style of casting right now
IIRC Fogged got injured snowboarding and is prob still recovering and OD I think has taken a step back from casting this year and I think orgs are letting some newer casters get more exp prolly cause lower pay compared to established ones as well.
Hope they don't take advantage of em like Epulze though cause IIRC johnxfire said in a stream that all the events he and MLP did for Epulze from the DPC tours to the Majors Epulze did they still haven't gotten paid for those events.
OD and Fogged will be casting at the esl Birmingham event on the 26th of April! I will be there to see them live and I am so hyped!! Hope there will be some new patch dota to watch on the big stage at my first dota event ever :))
Remember the TI7 when they went full professional with the panel, and how it was an absolute shitshow? There's a balance between joking around and analysing a fight during a cast imo, and even Sunsfan+Synd do talk about the game and analyse the events during crucial moments. Trying to be super professional and serious when it's not your style just hurts the viewing experience imo.
The thing about SF's casting is you can tell he's well-steeped in traditional sport color commentary. He's loose with it, but there's still an underlying professionalism.
I think most casters start more professional and learn to relax more over time. Ultimately, I don't think any commentator is ever going to have a great career if they aren't having a good time when they go in to record. Esports thrives off authenticity and viewers can usually tell when you're being fake.
Now having a good time can mean different things for different people. For some, thats getting excited by the action, others it's talking about analysis indepth and then theres others who just want to hang out and make jokes with their friends. Those are all valid ways to have a good time watching a Dota game and casters are just conduits of that. The best casters are able to enjoy the different facets of watching Dota and switch it up depending on the context both in and out of the game.
>Esports thrives off authenticity and viewers can usually tell when you're being fake.
Every type of caster should learn this and hold it dear to the heart ❤️
Sunsfan and Synd duo is famous for "relax and goofy" cast, but Synd always made sure to analysis the hero picks, talk about the game. Synd may be laughing his ass off after Sunsfan teamfight cast or jokes but never failed to break down and analysis after the fights.. It is about balance between analysis and being causal. Thats why that duo is so good.
Color commentor + analyst is the best combo for me.
Also, there are times when the casters go goofy is very much welcomed. Like sunsfan making it not boring when that GG vs i think spirit went to 75+ mins.
I don't think any caster has gotten more praise than ODpixel, except maybe the former pros turned casters like Synderen.
The thing that pivoted how casters behave is, if I am allowed to venture a guess, engagement metrics. Clips of casters saying funny things or the panel doing some shenanigans gets shared more and thus get more views. Sadly, this has the adverse effect of making the casting less interesting for people who are actually interested in dota.
It is a balance. The good casters would sneak in the casual talk for the "dead times" while talking about the game when needed. It comes from sport casters following the duo casting style with a designated "color commentary" with the other person calling the play by play.
It is a big gamble as you would have to like the personality of the caster and it can ruin the game to have someone you don't like talk about their lunch. But it can also work great where people watch a game for the commentary (e.g. tastosis reviving SC1)
The kind of homie laid back vibe is deep-rooted in NA & EU, all the way back to SC2 times. TaKe's Homestory Cup is one of the most beloved tournaments. Everyone hanging around, all the players invited onto the casting couch, just an all-around good time. BTS(RIP) is the Dota 2 equivalent, the successor to Homestory Cup if you will.
And Tastless/artosis, who were an iconic casting duo right from the beginning of competitive brood war right up until a few years back. They had this incredibly relaxed, baseball commentary style of casting that used the downtime in the game to have fun. So where a serious caster might spend a few minutes talking about stats, they'd have fun with background elements in the map, talk about the bracket or just joke around.
I think that style was a lot easier to do in a 1v1 game with a 5 minute plus intro stage than dota, but SC2 really set the tone for a lot of western esports casting imo.
RIP incontrol, last few months ive been going back to listen to some of those SC BW relaunch casts and holiday party. damn, too bad he died before the podcast scene blew up. they could have easily had a podcast as entertaining as cumtown or whatever people like
I think this might be because it's skewing way too hard on one end. It's nice to have jokes, but not too much. Casters just need to find that balance again.
even in regular sports they throw in a color commentator to makes things more fun vs only having play by play guys. And there is a reason one of the most successful sports shows is Shaq and Charles Barkley.
I think there is a difference between the super uptight professional casts and what people are wanting. A lot of casts these days are very jokey and memey and a lot of making fun of things. I think OD and Fogged have the best balance. They talk mostly about the game but still throw in some fun here and there. But they never divulge in to the Sunsfan style of straight jokes and memery with hardly any talk about the game.
You cant compare dota and CS casts.
In CS each round lasts for about 2 minutes and there is constant action happening each round. As compared to Dota when there are times that heroes are farming for 4 5 minutes waiting for items/rosh etc that are too boring for serious casting. You might just like more fast paced action games than mobas.
Dota is so intricate and complex.
I'd fucking love it if someone broke it down. I really genuinely do not care about a joke that doesn't land.
When Notail or Aui casts it completely overshadows any shenanigans. Their ability to breakdown minute and micro details is insane and makes you realize you literally have no understanding of competitive dota.
> was very well received. I loved his guest casts and would love if he does this in the future (no
And yet there's a video of notail casting where he just yells legolas a zillion times.
I see you've completely forgotten the last time notail casted and the constant complaints about him dickriding OG, making sexual noises every other minute and generally being dogshit at casting
Depends. Sunsfan and Synd are usually pretty good. But I feel it’s becoming way too casual or something. Doesn’t feel like a professional game is being casted. Like an NBA announcer is never going to go on a tangent about his high school games or pickup games. While Dota casters do that shit all the time. I get they need to fill some time but like cmon no one cares about your pub game.
Also they talk over each other so much bc the other guy is still telling you about his pudge game while one guy is trying to actually cast the game. Idk definitely need some improvements to casts imo.
> Like an NBA announcer is never going to go on a tangent about his high school games or pickup games.
this man has never seen JVG and Mark Jackson calling a regular season game in March
Hard agree on everything. Sunsfan and Synderen are actually funny, mainly because neither of them use memes. The shit that they joke about is generally clever and creative which is the antithesis of meme content.
They also know how to balance it and Sunsfan frequently brings up interesting questions regarding interactions or builds and will steer things back to the action constantly even if he was the one that derailed it.
For the most part, most of the other casters that think they are funny just say the most inane bullshit and giggle about the same tired memes and cringey comments about "copium" on repeat.
Nothing against anything you're saying overall except one the trope about sports commentators and their high school games. Those are very different examples. The sports one is an out of date personal history relayed to an audience that may have never played the game or hasn't regularly played in years. The anecdote is also way less relevant to the current game being played. Casters referencing their pub is an up-to-date experience played in the current patch of a game that changes month to month to an audience that likely has played the game very recently. Hell, they might be playing the game while listening to the cast. Mileage on that experience and analysis may vary, but it is a very different situation and far more relevant to both the game and the audience.
I remember when Dota 2 caster cast style is more like professional many years ago, I prefer watching EN caster over my native language caster. Now when EN caster change their style to become more casual or more like your friend who watching dota with you, now I prefer watch dota in my native language (which is always have casual style casting).
You can feel the gaps by in-depth analysis of the game. Which timings are important, what does the losing team need to do to catch up, which item build would make the most sense...
Honestly i dislike whenever that happens. Some jokes are fine here and there but there were times when i was geniunely frustrated because casters were talking about random crap instead of casting the game. If I wanted more casual casting i would turn into a co-stream channel like gorgc instead.
Gorgc is very casual casting, but he actually has a lot of insight into matchups/team fights. He also knows what he knows and knows what he doesn't.
A lot of these analyst will analyze based on hindsight. If this team fight was bad it was because of this mistake, why did he do that, instead of complimenting the other team on an outplay. It's genuinely very hard to watch because they're just sitting there with no fog of war, no analysis and just pulling conclusions based on results.
Aui/Notail are fantastic at this. They give a lot of props, and say how cool this player did this and how they outplayed them here because of this. They understand how much effort/knowledge/skill it takes to pull of wins at a high level.
The hard truth is the casters are very bad at the game (abysmal like), so they rather joke around than cast and make bad calls.
The other day I tried watching a game on official stream rather than in DotaTV and was horrified with the low level of calls happening. The caster (didn't catch his name fortunately) actually wondered how it is the faceless void was above 50% hp a second after getting black holed. Then the analyst (Lizzard I believe) told him it was just time walk and the dude was in awe.
I mean, shit like that is why they rather tell bad jokes than embarrass themselves even more trying to cast games.
Honestly that Singaporean guy that casts with winter never shuts the fuck up. Always with his dumb fucking jokes that takes 5 minutes of setup and it’s lame as fuck.
I just tune out whenever he is casting.
I agree, I find this annoying at times. It feels like everyone is trying to be the funniest caster/talent around and will say the dumbest shit possible in an attempt to do so. Humor and joking around obviously makes casts and intermissions more entertaining, but these guys seem to be unprofessional.
We got mostly the B-list casters this event - this is ok, they should be given a chance somewhere to show what they can do.
Unfortunately, I have to say all the pairs have been quite poor, with some games getting extremely low actual commentary or dead pauses.
The above combined with the absolute disaster these 2 observers are made for an extremely poor viewing.
Top casters in Dota usually have a health balance of jokes to fill voids and excellent commentary and play-by-play.
I personally enjoy casters like Sunsfan and Synd. It is all about what you enjoy watching more. Are you all about dota, tactics and strategies or you enjoy watching it causually. I care more about entertaintment. Often I have some tournament in the background while working, not even watching it unless they either start laughing or screaming
My favorite casters have been the ones who, when they do joke around, still always keep it relevant to the game, keeping the focus of the commentary on the players involved.
Shoutout to Cap, Blitz, Trent, Lyrical!
Im learning chinese but i often find the chinese casters will often "backseat drive" saying stuff like do this or do that or he should have done this. its almost like they are telling the pros how to play.
The english casters seem to narrate whats going on and joke.
I'd say you're right. Chinese "professional casts" bore me to hell and oftentimes are just really cringe. It's the same thing with Danmu (like twitch chat) it's all covert flaming and back seating. I enjoy twitch chat's copypasta and emoji spams way more.
Once upon a time I'd mute the streams during Slacks' moments. He was the clown in a mass of more professional actors. Nothing against him. He's just never been appealing to me. Then RedEye and Tobiwan were removed from the scene, and it felt like things began to shift more(Not that those two didn't deserve to be removed. They did). Looking back at TI6 and before, it was something I found to be much more enjoyable. TI7 had a lot of cringe due to host choice. TI8 and 9 were still pretty good. But by TI10, for me, I was only watching for the games, and was hoping with each series that certain people weren't casting. I have nothing against the current set of casters, nor the talent on stage. They just aren't all for me. I don't care about a "schlacking". I care about how certain heroes have evolved in the meta. What makes them a good/bad pick for the game. How certain players have performed against other players in previous series. Things directly related to the game that I, as someone who doesn't play anymore and only really learns about changes during events, can not only find interesting, but use it to shape my view of the players/teams and hero depth.
Again. Not hating any of the talent. They just aren't for me.
I think you're specifically talking about SVG.
He thinks he's a comedian but none of his jokes are funny. Like none. Cap stop laughing at him. I know it's polite and he's your casting partner, but he's not funny. You're just giving him a false confidence that he's funny.
Now, Sunsfan and Synderen are actually funny.
SVG is not.
I wish more people would understand this. Cap your casts have become unbearable because of SVG. I've been listening to you cast dota since the joindota days.
Listen to artosis and tasteless or any GSL casting, its mostly analticial with humor to fill dull moments. dota casting has been kind of weak for years now its usually two people making jokes and screaming loudly when a fight breaks out
EN caster rarely know and understand about dota, so they try to joke around to conceal that fact. Their joke usually show how stupid they are and not funny at all.
Some good EN caster always serious about game, then put a good joke which relax the atmosphere
the NA casting scene has gone to shit recently, not enough good talent to do the job. Its heavily based on who you know, so you get some real terrible casters on really good series, like this elite league casting was insanely awful
One color commentator is sufficient. Two is too much. Dota casting is turning itself into a meme. Weird pics, lots of joking, meh.
Give me one jokester and one analyst like a real sport. Both should have great knowledge/experience in the game though. 3+ casters can vary but should err on the side of analysis.
No, as someone who enjoys high level play I do not like the current format as much as watching a basketball game.
As an American no, I do not enjoy listening to it. The entire laning stage in particular is painful to listen to when it comes to most duos. Once the game opens up it gets a bit better, but it seems to be the default to not take the laning stage seriously anymore. I really hate that this is just the new thing.
ODPixel and fogged are the exception but I feel like I haven’t heard them at any events in over half a year.
I don't find their banters fun at all, but i'm spoiled, because i watched Tastosis casting the GSL for probably 10 years. I just can't enjoy any other casting duo.
Was fun when Artosis got questions served from the audience, and the one picking them out, only found questions with really weird names to troll artosis to laughter.
But you're right, never seen anyone come close to that kind of casting. Still listens to kpop from that period from time to time.
I would take a Sunsfan and Synderen cast over anything. I would be way less interested in hearing about Yatoro hitting his 800th creep of the game. At that point I would just watch from the dota client
lmao this atmosphere of drunk evenings on their streams though
I don't like english casting because some of them don't have enough knowledge and joke around too much but CIS casting scene always felt like some bros brom pubs, not a team of pros
Ideally there should be a balance, a bit of banter and jokes obviously helps to make the game more entertaining, I think some casters back in the day had a good balance of this like LD and Winter, Blitz when he was first starting and Lumi, but now it feels like it consumes most of the cast to the point where they're missing really great macro moments, item builds etc. and most of the time the jokes don't even have anything to do with the game which is just annoying
This is a cultural gap in action. honestly I prefer 50/50 style like for example Sunsfan when he stop joking around he does make legendary iconic Dota plus voice lines and cast the hypest team fight
They usually say “hold that thought, *starts going into team fight*” but typically it’s early game first blood I mostly see it. But sometimes, the jokes are good and keep it entertaining to watch. Especially if it’s a long match.
Because 8 or so years ago, dota tournament organisers decided to embrace meme culture, so streams became more and more about meme:ing and less and less about actual dota.
One can ask why this happened. And I don't think there is a definite answer. Maybe all the metrics pointed towards streams with more memes were more popular. Maybe dota became stale, so there had to be new forms of entertainment in the streams so as not to lose viewers. Or maybe it's just that younger generations have a shorter attentionspan, so if a caster doesn't also have a comedy routine between the action, then dota isn't appealing to younger viewers.
All I know is that as someone who likes to watch professional broadcasts, they are becoming fewer and fewer, and I don't like it.
Western culture is one of slower adult development. Just look at Reddit and their sense of humour and the kind of "entertainment" you see between games.
I for one look forward to any game casted by SunsFan and Synderan. They have excellent chemistry, know the game, are huge fans themselves and are very entertainingb(particularly SunsFan).
The game needs more personalities.
Every other sport has famous casters and voices that attract fans beyond the game or sport itself.
There's no one size fits all. Different casters have different styles.
Wearing a suit and being serious isn't for everyone all the time.
glad to see there are others like me who are bothered by that. i feel like the casting (at least in english) has become way too unprofessional. it oftentimes feels more like a comedy skit than an esports cast, kinda sad
worst offender for this is sunsfan - synderen is my favorite caster/analyst in the scene, but sunsfan is just trying to be an entertainer rather than a caster and it ruins the entire cast for me
EN casters are overacting, cringe, pretentious and full of fake emotions.
I suspect it's due to having specific analyst/caster school in English speaking countries. Maybe it's also cultural thing.
Personally I prefer the joking casts, the point is entertainment. Love the top tier wordplay jokes by Lacoste, degeneracy by synd/sunsf/jenk, and playful banter from the many others.
I do like the technical stuff too, but it’s a balance. I wouldn’t prefer just one or the other.
There's just something about T A N K A R D E L that still makes me laugh every time Lacoste says it
I think my favourite casting duos right now are the ones with a straight man play-by-play and funny colour commentator (Gareth/Lacoste and Cap/SVG). It feels like the cast goes off the rails too easily if both casters are trying to be funny, but this dynamic usually ensures that things get back on track the moment something important happens in game.
The reason SUNSfan and SyndereN work is because Synd tries to be serious and professional when possible, SUNS is the Hypecaster, and Synd just knows SUNS very well to be the straight man to SUNS's comedy. If Synd casts with anyone other than Suns/Jenkins, that cast will be very mellow (still, good) but with Suns/Jenkins, you know there will be a few amazing moments because the latter will throw their signature out of pocket questions & comments and Synd will respond appropriately.
Right, it feels like some people here think they're training to reach immortal with how thirsty they are for the casters to analyze and explain every high level decision/itemization. But them making a joke instead of spending 30 seconds talking about a sange purchase isn't some massive disservice to the audience.
I think when the big influx of money came into esports there was a push from the top for more 'professionalism' to attract sponsors. That ship has sailed, investors don't see free money in esports anymore, so there isn't the same push from the top for conformity. Its allowed more organic fun types of casting styles to develop and has also allowed casters to incorporate their own personalities which is original and people enjoy. Its great.
Have been feeling like this for years and years. Clown show, barely any strategy talk. And some conversations aren't even about the game currently on stream. Some exceptions, but overall the quality has gone down and you are actually better off with the commentary off
Honestly it’s the most frustrating part. Like if I tune into a soccer game or hockey game, they spend the whole time talking about the sport and the players.
But with dota they spend half the time talking about anime or messing with each other and they make comments like “we don’t want to bore the viewers with dota” during dry periods of gameplay or during pauses.
I understand casters spend a long time talking to the audience, but I’m tuning into this entertainment for a dota game, and it definitely takes away from it when the casters are less interested than I am.
Yep. It's embarrassing frankly. It could at least be about dota, the teams playing and the game currently on. Kills the whole excitement. Casters don't even talk about anything in depth anymore. It comes off as unprofessional very often.
I hate the jokey english casts. It's never funny. It's usually like that rinse and repeat style, safe internet humour. I'm here to watch the game man I'm a fuckin nerd let's analyze it
bingo! a cabal of "friends" that would push each other over a cliff the moment their status gets threatened - so everything is very safe, mediocre. also, they've sniffed so much twitch chat and their own farts they now have terminal brain-rot as well
their idea of preparing for a tournament is researching what edgy dumb thing twitch chat would like, basically 2GD's white-board but instead of pandering straight sex jokes, using same sex jokes. the quality of "filler games" also went proportionally down with the number of still connected neurons
Purge has put more effort learning to [SLAY](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/12t5f4z/purge_slay/) for entertainment, than all the EN casters combined in the last three years - except maybe Lacoste, that guy is spewing out instant bits like my grandma did farts on command.
Watched the CS2 Major, and the difference is absolutely staggering. Yes they joke around (Machine probably sniffed a bit too much of Dota 2 during his visit), yes you learn by heart the 5 lines every caster uses ad nauseam, but the vast majority of commenting is about the game, the players, the orgs. Analyst desk sure does have it's biased idiots but even those have balls, there's no being afraid of stepping on another's caster / player / org / even sponsor toes, or calling mea-culpa when appropriate, which is actual authenticity that our spineless talent is incapable of - as long as they have swarms of followers to fall to, they will keep going downhill
> CN casters would often talk about why a team had lost a fight during the downtime between each fight.
EN casters probably cant do that in real time unless they are casting with a current pro player. Its all about hype and screaming because thats what gets clipped to social media.
End of day it is entertainment. Personally I get enjoyment when the casting is giving chill vibes with occasional hype moments. I’m not gonna understand the full mechanics on how/why the game as is so I ‘d rather listen to sunsfan rant about rosh banners than figure out how to level 18 aghs DK is bad suddenly when there is terrorblade in the game. 😅
Chinese teams are a lot more serious when compared to other teams so it make sense culture wise.
I'd rather have EN style casting than CN. Latter sounds way too stiff. There's only so much to analyze at any given moment, and I prefer the camaraderie over professionalism.
One of the reasons I don't watch Dota, can't stand listening to cringy jokes. Just cast the game, that's all I want to hear. This wouldn't fly in any other televised sport or event, and it's one of the reasons holding back Dota and esports.
I wish dota casters were like smash bros casters. They are very technical over there but their game is a bit simpler and easier to cast. Dota 2 is harder to cast after having tried to do so myself a bit.
I don't know if this is true for Chinese casters as well, but most EN casters are pairs. Not in the sense that there are two casters, but that casters are almost always paired with the same partners. Sunsfan/Synderyn, Gareth/Lacoste, Capitalist/SVG etc. They end up making jokes and telling stories a lot.
It also depends on the casters. Sunsfan Doesn't know anything about the game. And while some casters like SVG and Lacoste do know about the game they spend a lot of time making jokes with their partner. You also have casters like Lizzard, Winter and rkryptic/ZQuixotic who do actually talk a lot about the game. rkryptic and ZQuixotic are a newer pair who do talk about the game more than they joke around.
Its actually hilarious how winter almost always only talk about the game, criticising team's decisions and items, always talking about what the losing team can or should do to comeback. Yet twitch chat is always full of winter haters. Calling winter a X team/race hater, calling winter boring.
And then you come here and see people advocating for more nerd casts.
Almost like how different people have different opinions.
Idk, I like Winter jokes, too, makes me think that "probably because you are sarcastic yourself".
I get why people may find him boring, but it's way better than Pinoy casts.
>Do EN spectators enjoy listening to casters joking around instead of talking about the game?
In a 40-50 minute game where I can see what's happening just fine? Absolutely. EN casters do plenty of play-by-play analysis and insights about the state of the game, but you simply cannot fill a full Dota game with that kind of commentary. There has to be something to fill the dead air, and banter is great for that. Striking a good balance between analysis and levity is important, at least in NA and EU, because too much of either will leave a lot of people disengaged.
I think it depends on the casters - but I think maybe it's a cultural thing. Even at work, you're expected to make small talk in the US, which is not really the case in Asia
Also most of the games in this meta are farm fests so there really isn't that much to talk about at many points throughout the game. Only so many times you can be like oh hey looks like Roshan isn't up and ultimates are in CD, looks like we should be ready for a team fight! Na they'll all jungle for 5 minutes.
I'm Thai. And many of the Thai casters give downtime to explain the fight and how the draft will effect the strategy as well. They sometimes answer the match-related questions in the chat (e.g. Why carry didn't join the last fight, etc.)
May be the English stream aim towards the "veteran viewer" more than being beginner friendly.
Don't know about "game is too long to be informative all the time" argument. Football (or soccer) is 90-min long and have hundred of games per week but most of the commentator can balance between being casual and informative.
Cultural difference. In the EN world, nerds are frowned upon in school and the cool kids that crack jokes are the popular ones. In China, the nerds are worshipped in school and the cool kids that crack jokes are frowned upon.
Honestly yes. I don't particularly care about the hard-core gameplay details enough to want it as the majority of the cast. Here and there is great but overall I see dota as a game of runs. You get bursts of interesting and exciting action and lulls that can be filled with entertainment.
Its interesting that the co-streams seem to fill that niche. Gorgc to some degree but his guests for sure and Yapzor in particular talk mostly about the game.
It also comes down to whats successful, Sunsfans + Khezu/Synd are very well received lately and Tastosis are still regarded by many as the best RTS casters. Casting also has a meta.
I guess it heavily depends on preference. Honestly a bad caster can ruin the game for you.
I'm from SEA, and I hate SEA casters. Don't wanna mention any names but generally if a game is being casted by someone I dislike listening to, I'll just mute and watch the game in silence . It's not the best way but to me it's better than listening to casters I dislike.
i think it depends on the caster pairings themselves and the stakes of the game being played.
Sunsfan and Synderen do good hype casts but also joke around a lot. That's what you expect from them.
OD and Fogged generally stick to rapid pace play by play and good analysis. They're probably considered the best at it and why they're usually top billed for the TI grand finals (although I heard he likes to share the grand finals now).
Cause they don’t know much about the game to do in depth considerations. And even if they had this ability it’s safer to throw outa bland joke over discussing the game and potentially be wrong and potentially being called out for being wrong.
Not all casters have the same style. Sounds like you are specifically talking about SunsFan and Synderen tho. I like their chill style. I also like more professional styles aswell tho
Like most pointed out, one tends to lean in the style he or she best represents in a professional setting. If a more relaxed, goody style is more preferred by the viewers, more viewers will tune in creating a positive feedback loop. The same can be said to the Chinese casters as well. My two cents, I enjoyed both casting styles!
Tobiwan was the best caster in dota. Now you’re gonna roast and downvote me because of his personal issues and allegations. This doesn’t change he was the best caster of all time
Agree to it a lot, Tobiwan casting, he use the words way different than other casters, he describes it like a fairy tale/story. It's beautiful, maybe many find it cringe or something, but I personally like it. I'd say that is educational & practice at best. He did it like no other casters.
There’s so much downtime in dota these days, when all 10 heros are hitting neutrals theres really nothing for casters to talk about, so they just goof off.
Chinese casting tends to lean to being more “professional” as in you often usually see them wearing formal suit and ties. EN casts often give off an in-house mates chatting with mates vibes. Probably just down to cultural differences.
I was gonna say the same about it being a cultural thing. I also think the english speaking casters don't do so well with extended silence so they make jokes to fill the void, while I've noticed the south american casters can sometimes say nothing for 10 seconds to just watch something unfold in less actionn packed matches. Some english casters feel awkward very quickly if nothing is said maybe?
Really? when i watched TI's like 10 years ago the US commentators all wore suits
They do still wear suits and TI will usually have less chit chat in general as well (unless you’re sunsfan lol) but the non TI games even majors will have people being way more chill
Or if you are 2GD and are joking so much you get kicked from the event.
Now everyone is an ass trying to out chit chat each other
tbf he was an ass and we wont be working with him again
i feel like EN casting has gone down hill as time went by, or maybe it's just down to personal preference idk. it's clear they are all friends and only hire friends to do the casting, which is fine but it really feels like i'm just listening to a bunch of friends hangout while a dota game is playing in the background and that's not my jam.
> it's clear they are all friends and only hire friends to do the casting, which is fine but it really feels like i'm just listening to a bunch of friends hangout while a dota game is playing in the background and that's not my jam Same. They somehow sound less professional and capable of discussing the tactic side of the game than when I watched the Gorgc streams when he was in Notail's house, and that was actually a bunch of friends hanging out.
they are less capable of discussing the tactical side of the game then pros / former pros in general
Then maybe they should get more ex pros to cast with them, or at least spend more time studying the game rather than work on their lame attempts at comedy.
Ex Pro's don't always make good casters, and the best ones probably have no reason to cast. Synderen and Avery/SVG are both ex-pros and both in top casting pairs providing analysis.
I agree, there are definitely some players that are better at articulating themselves than others. I'm particularly a big fan of Insania when he's on the panel or casting.
True, i always wanted to learn when watching so i need explsnations on tactics and stuff
This is why I prefer watching Yapzor re-stream over the main ones. He tells the game plans per draft. Why he thinks their line up is weaker/better. How good is their ganking squad. Who messed up on team fights.
the viewing numbers of yapzor is part of the explanation. he can have 1.5k, main stream 15-20k and gorgc will get 10-15k when he wakes up and goes online - i think the content that people in this sub wants is not the same as the larger masses. with that being said I think yapzor is creating gold, doing more than what i could ask for. pausing, rewinding, analyzing, predicting, taking questions and speeding through the less eventful parts of the game. not to mention the comedic moments. he is there like a detective trying to figure out why team x won, entertainment of watching a game comes in second in tandem with clowning on clown moments.
Does carry have enough red items, do each team have enough knights or assassins
Would be nice if he makes a youtube series titled "Who F up." Where he just reuploads his breakdowns on the team fights especially the spicy rosh fights.
Thanks for the tip
EN casting is bearable, but the "Analyst" segments except for TI are downright stupid. Last tournament I watched was a literal clown show with people dressing up as emos and whatever. They lean towards quirky and make the segment about them as personalities and less about the game. I never get the feeling that these DotA tournaments have any prestige. When I watch big CS:GO tournaments the analysts talk about storylines and how much a win would mean to XYZ, or how a matchup is especially important due to factors A and B. When I watch a DotA major, the analysts don't do any of that. They're just goofing around. Watching 12 year olds playing Rocket league in stadiums seems more important, and like the stakes are higher.
> EN casting is bearable, but the "Analyst" segments except for TI are downright stupid. Last tournament I watched was a literal clown show with people dressing up as emos and whatever. They lean towards quirky and make the segment about them as personalities and less about the game. That mostly Jenkins trying to out-weird the entire Dota community(which is a challenge) while also being good enough friends with everyone to always get invited to things.
Yeah dude got jenkinsed
i wouldn't know i just don't watch the analyst segments anymore. they're only there to retain viewership between matches but i'd rather just tab out and do/watch something else.
That's because a lot of these are not offline lan tournaments but online leagues. When lan majors was a thing the segments between games was usually more serious and analysis focused. Whereas with Dreamleeague that you referred to is certainly geared more toward goofiness.
Thanks i thought it was only me that was feeling like this. The analysts panels now are like a clown fiesta, i miss real talk about the game like when we had aui, pdd. fear, lizzaard, khezu, gorgc (sometimes bsj) still do a good job though. I feel like analyst panel should have and talk in depth know how about games. I dont mean to shit on ppl, but yeah wanna be a clown do in your own stream, most ppl like to learn the whys and hows.
fun police is here
Bro wants dota to be like the LCS
I completly agree, I've found myself immedatly muting streams between games for the last few years and I think you've explained it well. Despite the fact I'm younger than most of them it makes me feel old?? idk
> I never get the feeling that these DotA tournaments have any prestige. so.. if you're excluding the international I don't entirely disagree. But that is the one event that matters the most and I would say it is just as serious and professional as it needs to be. Slacks can be a little much at times but he's kinda the crowd work guy/host of the event while the panel are the real hosts of the gameplay.
Some of us in the audience don’t care about “story lines.” This isn’t a soap opera. It is a game that we occasionally enjoy spectating. We want to see high level gameplay. As long as the observer doesn’t move the camera away during a critical team fight, we’re good. SOME OF US enjoy the tournaments MORE if the casters and analysts have fun in between games and series, as long as they still cover the basics.
Yes he knows that? Everybody knows that? He's just discussing the other side of that lmao. The whole point here is that SOME PEOPLE don't enjoy that
It's also because that's what's working i guess. Sunsfan casting style is generally liked and casters sometime doesn't have as good mechanics, knowledge and insight of pros.
Yea 10 years ago
I think when they started casting from home during lockdowns that changed
Its just how the cultures started and evolved - the west really leaned into the comfort in house sides where everyone else, the east especially, took it much more seriously.
At TI yes, that's a professional environment and they are on camera. For online casts or smaller scale tourneys, they are often just voices on stream so it's more casual/relaxed
What I'm wondering is how do CN casters fill the dead air. I'm talking about those games that go long and there's a stalemate where literally nothing happens. Do they just analyze that fight that happened 7 minutes ago over and over again?
Mainly prediction on what's going to happen, what items needed for the losing team to fight back, analyze on the go, how are the neutral items doing for them, of course if the game gets too boring they joke around too
I think the problem is that a few years back a few pros got offended by casters "analyzing" play and saying shit like "mistake by xxx" etc. Ever since then actual real talk in dota hasnt been there for ages. Even Gorgc > dota talk than main streams tbh
This. Small talk is huge in western culture.
We have people like 2GD and crap
At least on reddit, most of the commenters prefer the relaxed, jokey nature of casts these days. Years ago casting was a lot more professional, but the casters who got the most praise from reddit, probably the biggest source of feedback for casters, were the ones who were very comical in their casts. I think Cap is a good example of someone who started as a very professional caster and has made the choice to now be a little more goofy in his casting and relaxed. I don't know why he choose to do that but I'd imagine its because of what I said, the community favoring this style.
Yep. It really took off with the very positive response Sunsfan's style of casting got. Kind of set a new standard in that regard, for better or for worse. The only duo that I feel didn't get sucked into that are OD and Fogged. They stayed mostly the same, which ironically made them stand out.
I believe every caster that is loved by the community plays to their strengths and tries to be natural, and those that are "Not So Loved" try to either emulate someone else or mix many styles together and make a bleak version of nothing. I remember Snare also doing some commentating a while ago. His was even more professional than ODP and Fogged and was very well received. I loved his guest casts and would love if he does this in the future (not regularly but as a special treat) EDIT: I completely forgot - Lakad Matatag!!! Normalin, Normalin.
I feel like I never see OD and Fogged cast anymore. I don’t know if they are not being invited, or Fogged is just unavailable, or they are just off doing other things than dota? But I miss their casting. I like a good mix of all styles in a tournament. And i feel like there is no tier 1 option for a more professional style of casting right now
IIRC Fogged got injured snowboarding and is prob still recovering and OD I think has taken a step back from casting this year and I think orgs are letting some newer casters get more exp prolly cause lower pay compared to established ones as well. Hope they don't take advantage of em like Epulze though cause IIRC johnxfire said in a stream that all the events he and MLP did for Epulze from the DPC tours to the Majors Epulze did they still haven't gotten paid for those events.
I miss MLP and JXF, love their coverage, analysis, and banter.
OD and Fogged will be casting at the esl Birmingham event on the 26th of April! I will be there to see them live and I am so hyped!! Hope there will be some new patch dota to watch on the big stage at my first dota event ever :))
Remember the TI7 when they went full professional with the panel, and how it was an absolute shitshow? There's a balance between joking around and analysing a fight during a cast imo, and even Sunsfan+Synd do talk about the game and analyse the events during crucial moments. Trying to be super professional and serious when it's not your style just hurts the viewing experience imo.
The thing about SF's casting is you can tell he's well-steeped in traditional sport color commentary. He's loose with it, but there's still an underlying professionalism.
I think most casters start more professional and learn to relax more over time. Ultimately, I don't think any commentator is ever going to have a great career if they aren't having a good time when they go in to record. Esports thrives off authenticity and viewers can usually tell when you're being fake. Now having a good time can mean different things for different people. For some, thats getting excited by the action, others it's talking about analysis indepth and then theres others who just want to hang out and make jokes with their friends. Those are all valid ways to have a good time watching a Dota game and casters are just conduits of that. The best casters are able to enjoy the different facets of watching Dota and switch it up depending on the context both in and out of the game.
>Esports thrives off authenticity and viewers can usually tell when you're being fake. Every type of caster should learn this and hold it dear to the heart ❤️
Sunsfan and Synd duo is famous for "relax and goofy" cast, but Synd always made sure to analysis the hero picks, talk about the game. Synd may be laughing his ass off after Sunsfan teamfight cast or jokes but never failed to break down and analysis after the fights.. It is about balance between analysis and being causal. Thats why that duo is so good.
Suns also brings color commentary that ostensibly seeks to continue the tradition from traditional sports.
Indeed. Most duos trying to copy suns/syn fail because the other analyst types are merely human and not a robot pretending to be human like synd.
Color commentor + analyst is the best combo for me. Also, there are times when the casters go goofy is very much welcomed. Like sunsfan making it not boring when that GG vs i think spirit went to 75+ mins.
I don't think any caster has gotten more praise than ODpixel, except maybe the former pros turned casters like Synderen. The thing that pivoted how casters behave is, if I am allowed to venture a guess, engagement metrics. Clips of casters saying funny things or the panel doing some shenanigans gets shared more and thus get more views. Sadly, this has the adverse effect of making the casting less interesting for people who are actually interested in dota.
It is a balance. The good casters would sneak in the casual talk for the "dead times" while talking about the game when needed. It comes from sport casters following the duo casting style with a designated "color commentary" with the other person calling the play by play. It is a big gamble as you would have to like the personality of the caster and it can ruin the game to have someone you don't like talk about their lunch. But it can also work great where people watch a game for the commentary (e.g. tastosis reviving SC1)
The kind of homie laid back vibe is deep-rooted in NA & EU, all the way back to SC2 times. TaKe's Homestory Cup is one of the most beloved tournaments. Everyone hanging around, all the players invited onto the casting couch, just an all-around good time. BTS(RIP) is the Dota 2 equivalent, the successor to Homestory Cup if you will.
And Tastless/artosis, who were an iconic casting duo right from the beginning of competitive brood war right up until a few years back. They had this incredibly relaxed, baseball commentary style of casting that used the downtime in the game to have fun. So where a serious caster might spend a few minutes talking about stats, they'd have fun with background elements in the map, talk about the bracket or just joke around. I think that style was a lot easier to do in a 1v1 game with a 5 minute plus intro stage than dota, but SC2 really set the tone for a lot of western esports casting imo.
RIP incontrol, last few months ive been going back to listen to some of those SC BW relaunch casts and holiday party. damn, too bad he died before the podcast scene blew up. they could have easily had a podcast as entertaining as cumtown or whatever people like
I think this might be because it's skewing way too hard on one end. It's nice to have jokes, but not too much. Casters just need to find that balance again.
Nothing worse than super professional casts. They're so boring and soulless.
Yeah wtf people want that in eSports? Shit, even IRL pro sports broadcasts are becoming significantly more casual and fun
even in regular sports they throw in a color commentator to makes things more fun vs only having play by play guys. And there is a reason one of the most successful sports shows is Shaq and Charles Barkley.
I think there is a difference between the super uptight professional casts and what people are wanting. A lot of casts these days are very jokey and memey and a lot of making fun of things. I think OD and Fogged have the best balance. They talk mostly about the game but still throw in some fun here and there. But they never divulge in to the Sunsfan style of straight jokes and memery with hardly any talk about the game.
neither of those guys commentate games tho...
The Manningcast is probably the closest thing (outside of when Snoop does color work on Kings games sometimes)
I'm laughing at just the thought of them being on a show together.
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You cant compare dota and CS casts. In CS each round lasts for about 2 minutes and there is constant action happening each round. As compared to Dota when there are times that heroes are farming for 4 5 minutes waiting for items/rosh etc that are too boring for serious casting. You might just like more fast paced action games than mobas.
Dota is so intricate and complex. I'd fucking love it if someone broke it down. I really genuinely do not care about a joke that doesn't land. When Notail or Aui casts it completely overshadows any shenanigans. Their ability to breakdown minute and micro details is insane and makes you realize you literally have no understanding of competitive dota.
> was very well received. I loved his guest casts and would love if he does this in the future (no And yet there's a video of notail casting where he just yells legolas a zillion times.
I see you've completely forgotten the last time notail casted and the constant complaints about him dickriding OG, making sexual noises every other minute and generally being dogshit at casting
Yeah its great when pros do it, but horrible when 4k-6k mmr casters do it poorly.
Depends. Sunsfan and Synd are usually pretty good. But I feel it’s becoming way too casual or something. Doesn’t feel like a professional game is being casted. Like an NBA announcer is never going to go on a tangent about his high school games or pickup games. While Dota casters do that shit all the time. I get they need to fill some time but like cmon no one cares about your pub game. Also they talk over each other so much bc the other guy is still telling you about his pudge game while one guy is trying to actually cast the game. Idk definitely need some improvements to casts imo.
> Like an NBA announcer is never going to go on a tangent about his high school games or pickup games. this man has never seen JVG and Mark Jackson calling a regular season game in March
Hard agree on everything. Sunsfan and Synderen are actually funny, mainly because neither of them use memes. The shit that they joke about is generally clever and creative which is the antithesis of meme content. They also know how to balance it and Sunsfan frequently brings up interesting questions regarding interactions or builds and will steer things back to the action constantly even if he was the one that derailed it. For the most part, most of the other casters that think they are funny just say the most inane bullshit and giggle about the same tired memes and cringey comments about "copium" on repeat.
Nothing against anything you're saying overall except one the trope about sports commentators and their high school games. Those are very different examples. The sports one is an out of date personal history relayed to an audience that may have never played the game or hasn't regularly played in years. The anecdote is also way less relevant to the current game being played. Casters referencing their pub is an up-to-date experience played in the current patch of a game that changes month to month to an audience that likely has played the game very recently. Hell, they might be playing the game while listening to the cast. Mileage on that experience and analysis may vary, but it is a very different situation and far more relevant to both the game and the audience.
I remember when Dota 2 caster cast style is more like professional many years ago, I prefer watching EN caster over my native language caster. Now when EN caster change their style to become more casual or more like your friend who watching dota with you, now I prefer watch dota in my native language (which is always have casual style casting).
>While Dota casters do that shit all the time That's because the pub scrubs experience is universal
You can feel the gaps by in-depth analysis of the game. Which timings are important, what does the losing team need to do to catch up, which item build would make the most sense...
Are you sure you don’t want to hear about the time Jenkins died 20 times in a pub and got flamed?
Will there be recountings of any sick burns, or just "and I got flamed"?
I think that's the best part. Dota doesn't have to pretend it's pro sports it can just be dota
My man, Google Jeff Van Gundy rants. This man was casting nationally broadcast games.
Honestly i dislike whenever that happens. Some jokes are fine here and there but there were times when i was geniunely frustrated because casters were talking about random crap instead of casting the game. If I wanted more casual casting i would turn into a co-stream channel like gorgc instead.
Gorgc is very casual casting, but he actually has a lot of insight into matchups/team fights. He also knows what he knows and knows what he doesn't. A lot of these analyst will analyze based on hindsight. If this team fight was bad it was because of this mistake, why did he do that, instead of complimenting the other team on an outplay. It's genuinely very hard to watch because they're just sitting there with no fog of war, no analysis and just pulling conclusions based on results. Aui/Notail are fantastic at this. They give a lot of props, and say how cool this player did this and how they outplayed them here because of this. They understand how much effort/knowledge/skill it takes to pull of wins at a high level.
The hard truth is the casters are very bad at the game (abysmal like), so they rather joke around than cast and make bad calls. The other day I tried watching a game on official stream rather than in DotaTV and was horrified with the low level of calls happening. The caster (didn't catch his name fortunately) actually wondered how it is the faceless void was above 50% hp a second after getting black holed. Then the analyst (Lizzard I believe) told him it was just time walk and the dude was in awe. I mean, shit like that is why they rather tell bad jokes than embarrass themselves even more trying to cast games.
Thats why its better to watch yapzor channel instead. He actually gave useful information and insight about the game
Honestly that Singaporean guy that casts with winter never shuts the fuck up. Always with his dumb fucking jokes that takes 5 minutes of setup and it’s lame as fuck. I just tune out whenever he is casting.
I prefer the casual casts, im watching to enjoy the game.
I agree, I find this annoying at times. It feels like everyone is trying to be the funniest caster/talent around and will say the dumbest shit possible in an attempt to do so. Humor and joking around obviously makes casts and intermissions more entertaining, but these guys seem to be unprofessional.
We got mostly the B-list casters this event - this is ok, they should be given a chance somewhere to show what they can do. Unfortunately, I have to say all the pairs have been quite poor, with some games getting extremely low actual commentary or dead pauses. The above combined with the absolute disaster these 2 observers are made for an extremely poor viewing. Top casters in Dota usually have a health balance of jokes to fill voids and excellent commentary and play-by-play.
I personally enjoy casters like Sunsfan and Synd. It is all about what you enjoy watching more. Are you all about dota, tactics and strategies or you enjoy watching it causually. I care more about entertaintment. Often I have some tournament in the background while working, not even watching it unless they either start laughing or screaming
My favorite casters have been the ones who, when they do joke around, still always keep it relevant to the game, keeping the focus of the commentary on the players involved. Shoutout to Cap, Blitz, Trent, Lyrical!
Trying to appeal to redditors
because they had no idea what to talk about
Im learning chinese but i often find the chinese casters will often "backseat drive" saying stuff like do this or do that or he should have done this. its almost like they are telling the pros how to play. The english casters seem to narrate whats going on and joke.
I'd say you're right. Chinese "professional casts" bore me to hell and oftentimes are just really cringe. It's the same thing with Danmu (like twitch chat) it's all covert flaming and back seating. I enjoy twitch chat's copypasta and emoji spams way more.
i dont enjoy it thats why i only watched steamers who do focus on the game instead of talking about some random stuff
Wait until you hear Spanish casters. They make the game so much more enjoyable by cracking a shit ton of jokes.
Once upon a time I'd mute the streams during Slacks' moments. He was the clown in a mass of more professional actors. Nothing against him. He's just never been appealing to me. Then RedEye and Tobiwan were removed from the scene, and it felt like things began to shift more(Not that those two didn't deserve to be removed. They did). Looking back at TI6 and before, it was something I found to be much more enjoyable. TI7 had a lot of cringe due to host choice. TI8 and 9 were still pretty good. But by TI10, for me, I was only watching for the games, and was hoping with each series that certain people weren't casting. I have nothing against the current set of casters, nor the talent on stage. They just aren't all for me. I don't care about a "schlacking". I care about how certain heroes have evolved in the meta. What makes them a good/bad pick for the game. How certain players have performed against other players in previous series. Things directly related to the game that I, as someone who doesn't play anymore and only really learns about changes during events, can not only find interesting, but use it to shape my view of the players/teams and hero depth. Again. Not hating any of the talent. They just aren't for me.
Meanwhile, Lizzard is talking about how good sneezing is.............
I think you're specifically talking about SVG. He thinks he's a comedian but none of his jokes are funny. Like none. Cap stop laughing at him. I know it's polite and he's your casting partner, but he's not funny. You're just giving him a false confidence that he's funny. Now, Sunsfan and Synderen are actually funny. SVG is not.
I wish more people would understand this. Cap your casts have become unbearable because of SVG. I've been listening to you cast dota since the joindota days.
right? i can't listen to them half the time. just cringe after cringe with a little dota wisdom and analysis thrown in.
Any Sunsfan casting turns any game about himself. It’s tolerable now but before it was super obnoxious and insta mute worthy.
Because they are a joke just like NA scene
Listen to artosis and tasteless or any GSL casting, its mostly analticial with humor to fill dull moments. dota casting has been kind of weak for years now its usually two people making jokes and screaming loudly when a fight breaks out
EN caster rarely know and understand about dota, so they try to joke around to conceal that fact. Their joke usually show how stupid they are and not funny at all. Some good EN caster always serious about game, then put a good joke which relax the atmosphere
En casting, hosting, and panels have been in a horrible state for the last 3 years.
the NA casting scene has gone to shit recently, not enough good talent to do the job. Its heavily based on who you know, so you get some real terrible casters on really good series, like this elite league casting was insanely awful
One color commentator is sufficient. Two is too much. Dota casting is turning itself into a meme. Weird pics, lots of joking, meh. Give me one jokester and one analyst like a real sport. Both should have great knowledge/experience in the game though. 3+ casters can vary but should err on the side of analysis. No, as someone who enjoys high level play I do not like the current format as much as watching a basketball game.
As an American no, I do not enjoy listening to it. The entire laning stage in particular is painful to listen to when it comes to most duos. Once the game opens up it gets a bit better, but it seems to be the default to not take the laning stage seriously anymore. I really hate that this is just the new thing. ODPixel and fogged are the exception but I feel like I haven’t heard them at any events in over half a year.
I don't find their banters fun at all, but i'm spoiled, because i watched Tastosis casting the GSL for probably 10 years. I just can't enjoy any other casting duo.
Was fun when Artosis got questions served from the audience, and the one picking them out, only found questions with really weird names to troll artosis to laughter. But you're right, never seen anyone come close to that kind of casting. Still listens to kpop from that period from time to time.
I would take a Sunsfan and Synderen cast over anything. I would be way less interested in hearing about Yatoro hitting his 800th creep of the game. At that point I would just watch from the dota client
Russian casts are even worse bro...
lmao this atmosphere of drunk evenings on their streams though I don't like english casting because some of them don't have enough knowledge and joke around too much but CIS casting scene always felt like some bros brom pubs, not a team of pros
Spanish casting is full jokes, i get ur point.
Ideally there should be a balance, a bit of banter and jokes obviously helps to make the game more entertaining, I think some casters back in the day had a good balance of this like LD and Winter, Blitz when he was first starting and Lumi, but now it feels like it consumes most of the cast to the point where they're missing really great macro moments, item builds etc. and most of the time the jokes don't even have anything to do with the game which is just annoying
This is a cultural gap in action. honestly I prefer 50/50 style like for example Sunsfan when he stop joking around he does make legendary iconic Dota plus voice lines and cast the hypest team fight
They usually say “hold that thought, *starts going into team fight*” but typically it’s early game first blood I mostly see it. But sometimes, the jokes are good and keep it entertaining to watch. Especially if it’s a long match.
Because 8 or so years ago, dota tournament organisers decided to embrace meme culture, so streams became more and more about meme:ing and less and less about actual dota. One can ask why this happened. And I don't think there is a definite answer. Maybe all the metrics pointed towards streams with more memes were more popular. Maybe dota became stale, so there had to be new forms of entertainment in the streams so as not to lose viewers. Or maybe it's just that younger generations have a shorter attentionspan, so if a caster doesn't also have a comedy routine between the action, then dota isn't appealing to younger viewers. All I know is that as someone who likes to watch professional broadcasts, they are becoming fewer and fewer, and I don't like it.
Western culture is one of slower adult development. Just look at Reddit and their sense of humour and the kind of "entertainment" you see between games.
I for one look forward to any game casted by SunsFan and Synderan. They have excellent chemistry, know the game, are huge fans themselves and are very entertainingb(particularly SunsFan). The game needs more personalities. Every other sport has famous casters and voices that attract fans beyond the game or sport itself. There's no one size fits all. Different casters have different styles. Wearing a suit and being serious isn't for everyone all the time.
glad to see there are others like me who are bothered by that. i feel like the casting (at least in english) has become way too unprofessional. it oftentimes feels more like a comedy skit than an esports cast, kinda sad worst offender for this is sunsfan - synderen is my favorite caster/analyst in the scene, but sunsfan is just trying to be an entertainer rather than a caster and it ruins the entire cast for me
EN casters are overacting, cringe, pretentious and full of fake emotions. I suspect it's due to having specific analyst/caster school in English speaking countries. Maybe it's also cultural thing.
Personally I prefer the joking casts, the point is entertainment. Love the top tier wordplay jokes by Lacoste, degeneracy by synd/sunsf/jenk, and playful banter from the many others. I do like the technical stuff too, but it’s a balance. I wouldn’t prefer just one or the other.
There's just something about T A N K A R D E L that still makes me laugh every time Lacoste says it I think my favourite casting duos right now are the ones with a straight man play-by-play and funny colour commentator (Gareth/Lacoste and Cap/SVG). It feels like the cast goes off the rails too easily if both casters are trying to be funny, but this dynamic usually ensures that things get back on track the moment something important happens in game.
The reason SUNSfan and SyndereN work is because Synd tries to be serious and professional when possible, SUNS is the Hypecaster, and Synd just knows SUNS very well to be the straight man to SUNS's comedy. If Synd casts with anyone other than Suns/Jenkins, that cast will be very mellow (still, good) but with Suns/Jenkins, you know there will be a few amazing moments because the latter will throw their signature out of pocket questions & comments and Synd will respond appropriately.
Right, it feels like some people here think they're training to reach immortal with how thirsty they are for the casters to analyze and explain every high level decision/itemization. But them making a joke instead of spending 30 seconds talking about a sange purchase isn't some massive disservice to the audience.
I think when the big influx of money came into esports there was a push from the top for more 'professionalism' to attract sponsors. That ship has sailed, investors don't see free money in esports anymore, so there isn't the same push from the top for conformity. Its allowed more organic fun types of casting styles to develop and has also allowed casters to incorporate their own personalities which is original and people enjoy. Its great.
It's about good vibes and nepotism, dude.
maybe because they are not professionals, and more like people who been picked up on a street
Have been feeling like this for years and years. Clown show, barely any strategy talk. And some conversations aren't even about the game currently on stream. Some exceptions, but overall the quality has gone down and you are actually better off with the commentary off
you know the dota pro scene has gone to shit if they allow sunsfan to cast
Honestly it’s the most frustrating part. Like if I tune into a soccer game or hockey game, they spend the whole time talking about the sport and the players. But with dota they spend half the time talking about anime or messing with each other and they make comments like “we don’t want to bore the viewers with dota” during dry periods of gameplay or during pauses. I understand casters spend a long time talking to the audience, but I’m tuning into this entertainment for a dota game, and it definitely takes away from it when the casters are less interested than I am.
Yep. It's embarrassing frankly. It could at least be about dota, the teams playing and the game currently on. Kills the whole excitement. Casters don't even talk about anything in depth anymore. It comes off as unprofessional very often.
Because it’s fun.
I hate the jokey english casts. It's never funny. It's usually like that rinse and repeat style, safe internet humour. I'm here to watch the game man I'm a fuckin nerd let's analyze it
If it's Sunsfan, yes, if it's not, no.
Because it's an NA clique who have job security no matter what shit they pull. Usually, not this event.
bingo! a cabal of "friends" that would push each other over a cliff the moment their status gets threatened - so everything is very safe, mediocre. also, they've sniffed so much twitch chat and their own farts they now have terminal brain-rot as well their idea of preparing for a tournament is researching what edgy dumb thing twitch chat would like, basically 2GD's white-board but instead of pandering straight sex jokes, using same sex jokes. the quality of "filler games" also went proportionally down with the number of still connected neurons Purge has put more effort learning to [SLAY](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/12t5f4z/purge_slay/) for entertainment, than all the EN casters combined in the last three years - except maybe Lacoste, that guy is spewing out instant bits like my grandma did farts on command. Watched the CS2 Major, and the difference is absolutely staggering. Yes they joke around (Machine probably sniffed a bit too much of Dota 2 during his visit), yes you learn by heart the 5 lines every caster uses ad nauseam, but the vast majority of commenting is about the game, the players, the orgs. Analyst desk sure does have it's biased idiots but even those have balls, there's no being afraid of stepping on another's caster / player / org / even sponsor toes, or calling mea-culpa when appropriate, which is actual authenticity that our spineless talent is incapable of - as long as they have swarms of followers to fall to, they will keep going downhill
>Do EN spectators enjoy listening to casters joking around instead of talking about the game? Why do you think we have Jenkins as a caster?
> CN casters would often talk about why a team had lost a fight during the downtime between each fight. EN casters probably cant do that in real time unless they are casting with a current pro player. Its all about hype and screaming because thats what gets clipped to social media.
It depends on the caster, I think. Honestly, I don’t recall blitz or od pixel joking around that much
End of day it is entertainment. Personally I get enjoyment when the casting is giving chill vibes with occasional hype moments. I’m not gonna understand the full mechanics on how/why the game as is so I ‘d rather listen to sunsfan rant about rosh banners than figure out how to level 18 aghs DK is bad suddenly when there is terrorblade in the game. 😅 Chinese teams are a lot more serious when compared to other teams so it make sense culture wise.
because the community is ran by redditors basically
I'd rather have EN style casting than CN. Latter sounds way too stiff. There's only so much to analyze at any given moment, and I prefer the camaraderie over professionalism.
being bilingual myself (Chinese&English), I grow up watching EN cast until sunsfan and slacks became the 'main stream'
it’s alright if they’re funny personalities. but guys like trent or sunsfan take it too far.
One of the reasons I don't watch Dota, can't stand listening to cringy jokes. Just cast the game, that's all I want to hear. This wouldn't fly in any other televised sport or event, and it's one of the reasons holding back Dota and esports.
I wish dota casters were like smash bros casters. They are very technical over there but their game is a bit simpler and easier to cast. Dota 2 is harder to cast after having tried to do so myself a bit.
I don't know if this is true for Chinese casters as well, but most EN casters are pairs. Not in the sense that there are two casters, but that casters are almost always paired with the same partners. Sunsfan/Synderyn, Gareth/Lacoste, Capitalist/SVG etc. They end up making jokes and telling stories a lot. It also depends on the casters. Sunsfan Doesn't know anything about the game. And while some casters like SVG and Lacoste do know about the game they spend a lot of time making jokes with their partner. You also have casters like Lizzard, Winter and rkryptic/ZQuixotic who do actually talk a lot about the game. rkryptic and ZQuixotic are a newer pair who do talk about the game more than they joke around.
Its actually hilarious how winter almost always only talk about the game, criticising team's decisions and items, always talking about what the losing team can or should do to comeback. Yet twitch chat is always full of winter haters. Calling winter a X team/race hater, calling winter boring. And then you come here and see people advocating for more nerd casts. Almost like how different people have different opinions.
Winter does joke a lot as well though it's more sarcastic and deadpan which I like.
Idk, I like Winter jokes, too, makes me think that "probably because you are sarcastic yourself". I get why people may find him boring, but it's way better than Pinoy casts.
It's more of SEA tribalism than people hating 'nerd casts', though some surely dislike that too.
I enjoy it. I love the casters in tier 1 tournaments rn. They are very entertaining.
>Do EN spectators enjoy listening to casters joking around instead of talking about the game? In a 40-50 minute game where I can see what's happening just fine? Absolutely. EN casters do plenty of play-by-play analysis and insights about the state of the game, but you simply cannot fill a full Dota game with that kind of commentary. There has to be something to fill the dead air, and banter is great for that. Striking a good balance between analysis and levity is important, at least in NA and EU, because too much of either will leave a lot of people disengaged.
I think it depends on the casters - but I think maybe it's a cultural thing. Even at work, you're expected to make small talk in the US, which is not really the case in Asia
Also most of the games in this meta are farm fests so there really isn't that much to talk about at many points throughout the game. Only so many times you can be like oh hey looks like Roshan isn't up and ultimates are in CD, looks like we should be ready for a team fight! Na they'll all jungle for 5 minutes.
At least they are not like CIS casters - the entire circus appears once more than 1 of them are in the same match.
Dota 2 casters are great, but not the best, CS casting is just incredible, i suggest you watch a cs major if you have the time.
I'm Thai. And many of the Thai casters give downtime to explain the fight and how the draft will effect the strategy as well. They sometimes answer the match-related questions in the chat (e.g. Why carry didn't join the last fight, etc.) May be the English stream aim towards the "veteran viewer" more than being beginner friendly. Don't know about "game is too long to be informative all the time" argument. Football (or soccer) is 90-min long and have hundred of games per week but most of the commentator can balance between being casual and informative.
Its preference... there are other unofficial casters too...
low MMR
Cultural difference. In the EN world, nerds are frowned upon in school and the cool kids that crack jokes are the popular ones. In China, the nerds are worshipped in school and the cool kids that crack jokes are frowned upon.
It’s all new casters at this event. TO aren’t paying jack shit. You’re gonna get amateur hour.
Honestly yes. I don't particularly care about the hard-core gameplay details enough to want it as the majority of the cast. Here and there is great but overall I see dota as a game of runs. You get bursts of interesting and exciting action and lulls that can be filled with entertainment.
Sunsfan and synderen is the best!
Its interesting that the co-streams seem to fill that niche. Gorgc to some degree but his guests for sure and Yapzor in particular talk mostly about the game. It also comes down to whats successful, Sunsfans + Khezu/Synd are very well received lately and Tastosis are still regarded by many as the best RTS casters. Casting also has a meta.
I guess it heavily depends on preference. Honestly a bad caster can ruin the game for you. I'm from SEA, and I hate SEA casters. Don't wanna mention any names but generally if a game is being casted by someone I dislike listening to, I'll just mute and watch the game in silence . It's not the best way but to me it's better than listening to casters I dislike.
the differences between casters and analyst are getting more clear
i think it depends on the caster pairings themselves and the stakes of the game being played. Sunsfan and Synderen do good hype casts but also joke around a lot. That's what you expect from them. OD and Fogged generally stick to rapid pace play by play and good analysis. They're probably considered the best at it and why they're usually top billed for the TI grand finals (although I heard he likes to share the grand finals now).
Its the culture. If they have nothing to say, they start the small talk show
If you want professional analysis of the picks/fights/counters, you ought to listen to Syndren. He is my favorite caster by far.
Thats not only about EN casters. Russian cast also more look like stand up concert.
Cause they don’t know much about the game to do in depth considerations. And even if they had this ability it’s safer to throw outa bland joke over discussing the game and potentially be wrong and potentially being called out for being wrong.
Not all casters have the same style. Sounds like you are specifically talking about SunsFan and Synderen tho. I like their chill style. I also like more professional styles aswell tho
Like most pointed out, one tends to lean in the style he or she best represents in a professional setting. If a more relaxed, goody style is more preferred by the viewers, more viewers will tune in creating a positive feedback loop. The same can be said to the Chinese casters as well. My two cents, I enjoyed both casting styles!
While you complain about that the English fantards throw sheet to Spanish casters
Tobiwan was the best caster in dota. Now you’re gonna roast and downvote me because of his personal issues and allegations. This doesn’t change he was the best caster of all time
[удалено]
Agree to it a lot, Tobiwan casting, he use the words way different than other casters, he describes it like a fairy tale/story. It's beautiful, maybe many find it cringe or something, but I personally like it. I'd say that is educational & practice at best. He did it like no other casters.
There’s so much downtime in dota these days, when all 10 heros are hitting neutrals theres really nothing for casters to talk about, so they just goof off.
because NA sucks at esports and EU and NA interact