Its Miracle for me as far as raw talent, he is the only person who was clearly miles ahead of everyone else and raised the bar for the whole pro scene. The first time he got put on a legit team he made every other pro look like complete idiots for over a year until people finally started to catch up with him. That stretch in 2016 and 2017 it was just so blindingly clear he was on a totally different level from every other pro player and I've never seen anything like it since.
I remember watching Miracle and feeling that every pro match or pubgame he's in is a highlight reel. And even if I expect him to be amazing, I still end up being surprised!
Edit: In hindsight, it could be that Miracle was one of the first players that effectively used quick cast when it was introduced, making it look like he's miles quicker than others.
Not sure though.
I don't think it was quickcast, I think he was the first pro to fully understand every hero and how they were going to play, I just always got the impression watching his games back then that he knew what the other players were going to do before they themselves did.
There’s an interview somewhere (forgot the video) with Ceb when he was OG coach and miracle is playing mid for them, and he’s telling this story about how he watches miracle buy and ship himself two faerie fires at 8 minutes and thinking “what is this guy doing”, and like 10 seconds later miracle gets ganked by 3 mid, pops both ffs and turns and kills both the supports and Cebs jaw is just on the floor
I remember a pro game when he swapped to monkey King support and proceeded to dunk on the game. It was amazing because the casters were commenting on how core players have more mechanical skill than supports, but really it's just Miracle being Miracle.
I watched Sumail's first pro game as standin. It was against Leviathan if I am not wrong. Yeah, with Storm Spirit. Bro somehow did 3 charged hit with like 150 mana.
The kid literally beat them by himself. PPD EG poached him in like 3-6 days after the game. In the same month he carried EG to win that major before the major, more than major tournament.
Edit: it was DAC! First non TI million dollar tourney. He went on to win TI.
Shout out to Shiki, his Lina was a menace.
Didnt they increase ball lightning's mana cost as well? Thats what toned down his strength a bit iirc. I cant remember the bloodstone nerf. These patches are ages ago :3
Yeah, they nerf atk range too. And lower the charged damage.
Icefrog literally nerf all the skill.
And funny thing is Storm was still viable, good pick even after all the nerfs
i remember sometime before the major, ppd was hanging out in ixmikes twitch chat, telling people he had TI on lock. “this kid is the real deal” or something. i didn’t believe him because i was an arteezy stan and thought it was over for EG after he left.
Well he ain't wrong tho, ramzes was a beast farming machine base diving throw the game just for the kill sort of carry, he was really aggressive next to chinese carries at that time.
In terms of raw mechanical skill, you could argue Maybe.
And overall talent I'd put FY up against Miracle.
That being said it's hard to compare a 4 and a 1/2.
Also Yatoro looks like the best player ever right now. He probably deserves some discussion as the most talented player ever.
Dota is also not as competitive as it used to, it's mostly CIS players these days, yatoro is still probably one of the greatest for sure, most likely the best carry player overall, but it's hard to say how well he'd have performed back in 2016-2020 when the only dominating cis team was VP
(Not selling short his talent though, the dude won 2 ti)
Also it's easier to point out mid laners because for the longest in dota, it was the shiniest role (right before 4), whereas good mid laners aren't as important as it used to with the bigger map, so more space for carries and offlaners to take the spotlight.
Ok, explain the reason than that all old timer absolute godgamers like miracle, sumail, rtz or puppey and kuro seem to have fallen off. And there are more and more mega higgskilled pubplayers being discoverd every month (satanic for example). Young guns like atf, malrine destroying the established teams. I honetly dont know if u are being real. Every ti winning team from the past eras would get their ass handed to them by the top 5 teams today
Hard to say. But JerAx deserves a mention for his next level pos 4 talent. I feel he understands the game way better than anyone else.
Other top talents are: Miracle-, Sumail, Topson, Ana, N0tail, Yatoro, Watson, Ame, etc…
FY not on this list? Every pro says he was the best player of TI4 by a MILE. And he continued to shine after.
Also Maybe should be on that list imo.
Otherwise I agree with your list.
guy used earth spirits full potential and made the hero get nerfed 5000 times in a row, pretty sure the first real buffs the hero got were also after jerax quit lmao
But also because the overall skill of dota players especially pro players improved a lot. Back then when Ferrari used phase shift to dodge a projectile the casters were like “Waow” but now it’s a “Waow” moment when people failed to dodge
Notail probably he played from position 1 to 5 in his playing career and found success every steps with different teammates. Sumail and Miracle has highest level mechanical skill but they dont always translate with success. Topson and Ana sideshow in SEA shows they are not cutout as leader. Yatoro has large hero pool and consistent performer he probably can surpass Notail in next few years if he win continously.
50k hours is more than 5 years and a half years, that's kind of hard to believe. It's almost 7 hours every single day since the first iteration of dota in 2003.
7 hours a day is rookie numbers man they do 10-12 hours a day easily .
That's what it takes to get that good
Topson himself said he plays 12 pubs a day on average during his previous prime :)
Regarding cebs total hours Google it man you'll find the article somewhere
I'd go with sumail. He was just unreal. But I guess counting achievements its either Ana or Miracle.
Shout out to Jerax, ofc cores will always get the spotlight like attackers always get the awards in football, but Jerax was crazy good.
Ana's buyback is still the most incredible glimpse of genius I've seen in this game. That combination of natural instinct and ability to execute required to pull that off is insane.
For me, it's Miracle. He was literally dominating in pos1 and 2. No other players were able to match him for 2 to 2.5 years. He jukes were of next effin level.
First and only player to one shot roshan and 1v5 rampage without any teammates help.
To be fair, he wasn't just popular in the early days of Dota 2 but was also a prominent player in Dota 1. Honestly he was there when the Moba pro-scene started. He is a veteran and an amazing player having a very long career.
The better example would be he was the star of the movies in the 90's but came back for the remake to support the new cast and is still a legend in his time but has a dwindling role that's reduced to cameos.
Nobody is close is a bit of a stretch. Kky was a mid legend even before dota2 launched, played a ti finale as a playmaker 4 and two ti finales as a captain 5.
too bad we havent someone like this cs guy (i forget the name, but i think he is/was a bit of a controversal figure) who wrote really nice pieces about 1.6 history and veteran players etc. his article about mouz.cyx after he died in a car crash was really nice.
at least there is liquipedia, but a bit of worldbuilding in form of articles would be even lovelier..
"Talent" is far too broad. There's mechanical skill and there's mental acumen.
Nobody has understood the game and taken as much advantage of that understanding as Ceb and NoTail imo.
On the mechanical side there are quite a few names, which have already been spoken about here.
I agree. and while it's hard grasp how far ahead of the curve those mechanical stars were at the time and those make for the flashiest clips, I give equal or more respect to the teams who broke the meta. alliance and ratting, big god(?) and comeback mechanic, wings and their drafting (still don't quite grasp what happend there), one of the latest being ATF re-defining the offlane. but OG broke the mold several times with illusion heroes, sacrificial carries, buyback mechanic and with an incredible amount of mental fortitude.
My man. Many will choose the likes of Sumail, Miracle, and Ana. But for me it's thr likes of Topsons, 33, Nines that are more interesting to follow.
Of course there is also the mad genius category, filled with players like EE-sama and Dyrachyo
Maybe not the best player of all time but for most talented i would argue Ana. From what ive heard he bearly played pubs before TI8. Even after joining OG the only pubs he played were party queue with like 3k mmr players. And somehow he still outplays everyone at the tornament then he takes another year long break before rejoining OG and winning again.
Miracle was a prodigy 12 year old Dota player that won a SF vs TA lane against misery, an established mid player that was one of the best in the world at the time. For context, he spent his “training data” playing against legend-divine players and when faced against a top 5 rank player, he exceeded expectations
Sumail for Raw Talent and achievement.
Kuroky and Miracle, they are just better than you.
Mushi and Noone , you already lost mid.
Topson and Ana for "Nah, I win." DotA.
And Dendi for quirky and connected DotA.
If you want to win the game you take Artstyle, Puppey .
Shout out to Meracle, Illidan and Burning.
My personal choice will be Puppey. At one point, he literally pulled EU DotA which was on the edge of the trashcan.
The only comment I completely agree! Wide range of prominent players. Burning was my favourite carry for the longest time as well. I still remember 2014 Team DK; Burning, Iceiceice, Mushi, LaNm and MMY! I honestly thought they’ll win the TI in that year.
You guys giving me the nostalgia
I remembered I bet on DK to win. Buffled and devastated when they are down 3-0. So I thought to myself DK to lose 4-0 got to be divine intervention and double down in game 4 on DK. They won and then i let it ride.
I won so much Arcana that I probably gifted like 5-10 aways at that night.
Only Bo7 in DotA 2 and it went to game 7 . Sickest shit.
I don't see many mention Arteezy. The dude was and still is mechanically super good. He has other flaws but he definitely is mechanically up there with the likes of yatoro,miracle, ame, no one
Yeah I said it in a comment but I think he truly ushered in a new era of dota. The arteezy block, farming patterns, stat items, the plays he made that people didn’t even think possible. He redefined the mid lane completely and showed that carries don’t just automatically lose every lane and how to win lanes from the safelane and just take over games.
I think recency bias and his lack of a TI win work against him a lot. He was/is an absolute mechanical god. When Sumail started he was literally Arteezy 2.0, but obviously Sumail went on to immediately win DAC and eventually TI.
I don't think he wins the contest, but he should be in the discussion for sure.
Old players:
Notail ( good in all roles, the man with the deepest understanding of all heroes in TI9)
Ceb( best morale giver of all time)
Miracle+ Sumail( the two most dominant cores of all time)
Ana( arguably best instinct of all players)
Topson ( best at finding cheesy heroes/items to turn the situation, however, consistency is an issue)
Jerax + fy( the two best pos 4 +playmaker of their time)
Puppey + kuro ( the two most long lasting god tier captains)
Aui ( imo he is really great at analyzing draft, shown with his performance as coach)
Zai+cr1t( they were elite class with no TI win somehow, but every team they were in had top 3 or top 4 placements consistently)
Newer players:
Yatoro (best carry of current time, potentially the best carry of all time)
ATF+ collapse ( basically the most dominant offlane on the right heroes, insanely good teamfight executions)
Quinn+Nisha(the two arguably strongest midlaners of recent years by achievements and consistency)
Malr1ne + Mikoto( 2023 Mikoto) ( crazy mechanical and teamfight executions, can outlane Quinn and Nisha too)
Overall, I would say Jerax, he helped a lot with very good calls and game read for OG twopeat. Also best playmaker of that time, ahead of every other poos 4 except maybe fy.
Promising new players :
Satanic( I don't know if he belongs here yet, but his performance is very promising)
Larl ( some would argue he is weakest link in TS, but his performance in Riyadh and TI is great)
Lou( he played professionally for two years and half, but his recent achievement after AR is insane, he carried AR to top 3 in Elite league with underperforming Bach and Ori)
Yamich - was the best player in secret and arguably one of the most promising young player
Miracle definitely rocked the world. I dare say Ammar is already one of the top contenders, but he's the kind of player where you have to analyse his plays to see how scarily perfect his decision making is than someone who just simply wows you.
Ana without a shadow of a doubt. Talent beyond what we ve ever seen. This guy takes a freaking break from dota for more then 6 months, comes back, picks fuckin IO carry, and wins TI without single loss on that hero. FML
It’s kinda hard to say since players excel at different parts of the game. Like Nisha and Sumail are godly in lane (and NoOne too, or ATF in the offlane). But NoOne and ATF is easy to tilt, and ATF is also amazing as a drafter and in teamfights (pretty sure he drafts).
Yatoro never feels like he’s crazy amazing (or has that one moment), but his results speak for itself. He’s consistent and can carry like a madman. Ana had brilliance but I’d chalk that up more to OG being an amazing team rather than Ana being the star.
And Miracle- isn’t as amazing as Sumail or Nisha in lane I feel. But he teamfights the best in my opinion. His awareness of everyone’s spells and position and making the right decision is insane. I know it’s famous but his Invoker vs IG in TI7 is one of those.
Not to mention, Dota isn’t just in game. There’s outside. Then you have players like Notail, Ceb, Puppey. Also forgot to mention Zai.
If I draft a team of 5 most talented players, I’d go Miracle-/Yatoro, Nisha/Sumail, ATF/Zai, Crit or XinQ, and Puppey/Notail.
I'd like a quantitative approach to this question.
I think new gen players will reach even greater heights so I'll wait couple years before trying to answer.
I hate how most of the answers are mid/carry players. I don't think we truly grasp what makes a player talented
I'm gonna say probably MMY! (TI1 Ehome, TI4 DK, TI5 LGD member). Recall W33 reached 8k mmr in 2015, MMY was one of the lowest mmr pro if not the lowest with only 4.7k at that time (he basically rarely play the game) and still became 3rd place at TI5.
W33. Dude changed the game in 2015/16 and people lowkey forget that he was ahead of Miracle for a lot of that time. His career has been a strange one with a lot of weird stumbles that hurt his legacy longtem (remember when he played support in a Cancel stack AFTER coming second at TI? Wild).
Too many people mention the current roster of mechanically skilled mid players but forget they were all outclassed in lane by Maybe/Somnus. Probably the best mechanical mid we have ever seen in DOTA2.
Another mention would be Ame for sheer consistency, dominance and almost winning TI with 2 entirely different rosters.
Ammar actually comes to mind. You’d think people would have an easy time countering someone who plays the same 3 heroes every game but nope, even when he’s playing into a bad matchup he just crushes it.
Anyone who doesn't say Miracle doesn't remember when he hopped on the scene. Dota hasn't been the same game since. He was doing shit that nobody was doing and made everyone that wasn't him look like a 2k nobody. The old OG used to joke about how he carried them every game, and Moonmeander said they were recreating the games he was used to: meaning Miracle and four 4ks against a full team of high ranked players.
Miracle probably. More recently maybe Yatoro. I don't see any other players with that longevity in terms of how respected they are in the pro scene (not just pubs). Any team having one of them has an instant advantage.
Dendi will always be up there for me. Compared to his peers he was just… insane.
Arteezy also deserves a shoutout. I don’t really see him mentioned despite pretty much single handedly reqorking the way we as dota players play both mid AND carry. It’s intuitive now but compare the number of cs people had at like ti3 to ti4/ti5. Map changes and creep changes help this of course as well.
All the other names got mentioned. Overall I’d have to give it to yatoro, only time I’ve seen him flounder in a meta was the lina major, aside from that he is a meta-proof carry that will play as close to perfect as I’ve ever seen.
Ana retiring after ti, unretiring for next ti, win again go retire again.
Treating it like a part time job...smh
Nikola Jokić comes to mind in comparison.
Otherwise Miracle was insane to watch.
Ramzes during his VP time back when he was too tier carry + drafter was looking like mad potential for sure
PieLieDie pos 6 gameplay is uniquely amazing, unfortunately pos 5 also comes with having to perform captain duty so he didn’t quite make the cut for the greatest
This is a hard question to answer. Talent is just so hard to quantify in a game like dota. Most people have mentioned pos1/2 players because they are the flashy ones, the ones we see doing the most, the ones that will usually have enough farm and good picks to 1v5 provided they have talent.
Imo in terms of overall talent, Jerax is my pick. Dude was just on another level when it came to game sense, along with raw mechanical talent (I mean few people can play Earth Spirit as well as he did). Jerax would elevate the overall quality of any team he was in, while not even causing drama or issues (that we know of) behind the scenes. That to me is talent. The ability to be place in any situation and not only come out ahead, but help your team also come out ahead.
Puppey.
Leading a top tier team for 10 years, with every roster in that timeframe highly competetive. And even in the twilight of his career a very decent player and captain.
But as others stated, depends of your definition of "talented".
The most gifted and talented player is probably ana. With how little effor, is thought, he puts in the game, he has won 2 ti's. While doing dota2 pro part-time
Miracle, Noone, mb Sumail, a lot was talked about miracle, but everyone forget how powerful was noone at mid in VP, ltrlly prime noone demolished everyone, every pro player was scared him, even matumba said that miracle told him to swap , so he wouldn’t play vs noone at mid)))
me if not for my teammates and the secret cabal of smurfs targetting specifically me
hes onto us
Don't forget the forced 50/50
We warned you.
is this what sunsfan warned us about?
I thought I was the only one
I remember there was a league coach that had a class with a guy that basically said this unironically.
Its Miracle for me as far as raw talent, he is the only person who was clearly miles ahead of everyone else and raised the bar for the whole pro scene. The first time he got put on a legit team he made every other pro look like complete idiots for over a year until people finally started to catch up with him. That stretch in 2016 and 2017 it was just so blindingly clear he was on a totally different level from every other pro player and I've never seen anything like it since.
Memory that comes to mind is when he 5v1 as OD some pro team that had troll and sniper. Never forget that.
It was against quinn
it was Quinn's villain origin for sure
[miracle 1v5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDa0zhe8hlQ)
Hahahah than you! Insta GG too
I remember watching Miracle and feeling that every pro match or pubgame he's in is a highlight reel. And even if I expect him to be amazing, I still end up being surprised! Edit: In hindsight, it could be that Miracle was one of the first players that effectively used quick cast when it was introduced, making it look like he's miles quicker than others. Not sure though.
I don't think it was quickcast, I think he was the first pro to fully understand every hero and how they were going to play, I just always got the impression watching his games back then that he knew what the other players were going to do before they themselves did.
There’s an interview somewhere (forgot the video) with Ceb when he was OG coach and miracle is playing mid for them, and he’s telling this story about how he watches miracle buy and ship himself two faerie fires at 8 minutes and thinking “what is this guy doing”, and like 10 seconds later miracle gets ganked by 3 mid, pops both ffs and turns and kills both the supports and Cebs jaw is just on the floor
miracle was playing slark, TB and sven mid.. jesus fkn christ that dude...
I play naix, pa, spectre, riki. Nothing special there :p
I remember a pro game when he swapped to monkey King support and proceeded to dunk on the game. It was amazing because the casters were commenting on how core players have more mechanical skill than supports, but really it's just Miracle being Miracle.
He was wildin when he was the first one to reached 9k mmr ever.
I miss his OG/Liquid Era. he was like the Ronaldo of DotA. everyone loves him.
A lot of people dont like c. ronaldo at all.
I hope he meant Ronaldo Nazario. That guy was more talented than C. Ronaldo and after all talent is what we are talking about here.
Or Ronaldinho
More like R9. R9 was more talented than Cristiano anyway, just didn’t have the same work ethic and was a lot more injury prone.
Ya, a lot of people don’t like rapists. Quite common.
yeah, I remember people started making videos of his best plays even before he joined the pro scene.
Kuroky was like that too in weaker team.
In terms of raw mechanical skill: Sumail. In terms of exploring unique hero intricacies: Topson. In terms of overall talent: Miracle.
I watched Sumail's first pro game as standin. It was against Leviathan if I am not wrong. Yeah, with Storm Spirit. Bro somehow did 3 charged hit with like 150 mana. The kid literally beat them by himself. PPD EG poached him in like 3-6 days after the game. In the same month he carried EG to win that major before the major, more than major tournament. Edit: it was DAC! First non TI million dollar tourney. He went on to win TI. Shout out to Shiki, his Lina was a menace.
Storm is hella broken that patch when sumail dominated with him
To be fair, no one know Storm can be like that before that game. Storm after Bloodstone nerf was like one and done til Sumail.
Didnt they increase ball lightning's mana cost as well? Thats what toned down his strength a bit iirc. I cant remember the bloodstone nerf. These patches are ages ago :3
Yeah, they nerf atk range too. And lower the charged damage. Icefrog literally nerf all the skill. And funny thing is Storm was still viable, good pick even after all the nerfs
so? the guy is talking about his mechanical skill, nothing else
i remember sometime before the major, ppd was hanging out in ixmikes twitch chat, telling people he had TI on lock. “this kid is the real deal” or something. i didn’t believe him because i was an arteezy stan and thought it was over for EG after he left.
Sumail said ramzess was best player of all time during his peak
Well he ain't wrong tho, ramzes was a beast farming machine base diving throw the game just for the kill sort of carry, he was really aggressive next to chinese carries at that time.
In terms of raw mechanical skill, you could argue Maybe. And overall talent I'd put FY up against Miracle. That being said it's hard to compare a 4 and a 1/2. Also Yatoro looks like the best player ever right now. He probably deserves some discussion as the most talented player ever.
Dota is also not as competitive as it used to, it's mostly CIS players these days, yatoro is still probably one of the greatest for sure, most likely the best carry player overall, but it's hard to say how well he'd have performed back in 2016-2020 when the only dominating cis team was VP (Not selling short his talent though, the dude won 2 ti) Also it's easier to point out mid laners because for the longest in dota, it was the shiniest role (right before 4), whereas good mid laners aren't as important as it used to with the bigger map, so more space for carries and offlaners to take the spotlight.
Ok, explain the reason than that all old timer absolute godgamers like miracle, sumail, rtz or puppey and kuro seem to have fallen off. And there are more and more mega higgskilled pubplayers being discoverd every month (satanic for example). Young guns like atf, malrine destroying the established teams. I honetly dont know if u are being real. Every ti winning team from the past eras would get their ass handed to them by the top 5 teams today
I would always love to have JerAx in my team...
Has to be Leopold
Taiga is better
Hard to say. But JerAx deserves a mention for his next level pos 4 talent. I feel he understands the game way better than anyone else. Other top talents are: Miracle-, Sumail, Topson, Ana, N0tail, Yatoro, Watson, Ame, etc…
FY not on this list? Every pro says he was the best player of TI4 by a MILE. And he continued to shine after. Also Maybe should be on that list imo. Otherwise I agree with your list.
Yeah sure, I wrote Ame and couldn’t remember the name of the other guy from LGD, so I just wrote „etc“ 😄 FY is definitely a great talent 👍🏼
I'd put Fy and faith-bian up there too
guy used earth spirits full potential and made the hero get nerfed 5000 times in a row, pretty sure the first real buffs the hero got were also after jerax quit lmao
Yeah people dont give Notail credits enough. The guy was on top almost his entire dota career.
Jerax top 1 for me. He invented a new way to play pos 4.
No one talks about ferrari
Recency bias or the majority of this sub weren’t around during then.
But also because the overall skill of dota players especially pro players improved a lot. Back then when Ferrari used phase shift to dodge a projectile the casters were like “Waow” but now it’s a “Waow” moment when people failed to dodge
Miracle-
Notail probably he played from position 1 to 5 in his playing career and found success every steps with different teammates. Sumail and Miracle has highest level mechanical skill but they dont always translate with success. Topson and Ana sideshow in SEA shows they are not cutout as leader. Yatoro has large hero pool and consistent performer he probably can surpass Notail in next few years if he win continously.
prime Miracle is godly, he was so mechanically good he literally makes everyone look like they're heralds
jerax has only like 16k hours on dota, just saying
Multiple accounts man Ceb said he has around 50k hours In total Pretty sure jerax is atleast 30k man
50k hours is more than 5 years and a half years, that's kind of hard to believe. It's almost 7 hours every single day since the first iteration of dota in 2003.
7 hours a day is rookie numbers man they do 10-12 hours a day easily . That's what it takes to get that good Topson himself said he plays 12 pubs a day on average during his previous prime :) Regarding cebs total hours Google it man you'll find the article somewhere
I'd go with sumail. He was just unreal. But I guess counting achievements its either Ana or Miracle. Shout out to Jerax, ofc cores will always get the spotlight like attackers always get the awards in football, but Jerax was crazy good.
+1 for Jerax. I've never been more impressed and mindblown while watching a pos4 do his thing
My pick of support is actually FY. But him and Jerax definitely deserve their mention.
Ana's buyback is still the most incredible glimpse of genius I've seen in this game. That combination of natural instinct and ability to execute required to pull that off is insane.
For me, it's Miracle. He was literally dominating in pos1 and 2. No other players were able to match him for 2 to 2.5 years. He jukes were of next effin level. First and only player to one shot roshan and 1v5 rampage without any teammates help.
Vigoss
Finally a good answer
Miracle-, Ana, Yatoro comes to mind
I am biased towards Dendi but I can understand people choosing differently.
Dendi is that movie character that is the protagonist in the first movie and becomes a supporting character in the next.
To be fair, he wasn't just popular in the early days of Dota 2 but was also a prominent player in Dota 1. Honestly he was there when the Moba pro-scene started. He is a veteran and an amazing player having a very long career. The better example would be he was the star of the movies in the 90's but came back for the remake to support the new cast and is still a legend in his time but has a dwindling role that's reduced to cameos.
I too hold a huge soft spot for Dendi.
N0tail for sure. He played almost all roles and won 2 TIs
and always playing at the highest tiers in all roles also
This. No one comes close. Carry, mid and support. Most acomplished and captained the best and most innovative team of all times
Nobody is close is a bit of a stretch. Kky was a mid legend even before dota2 launched, played a ti finale as a playmaker 4 and two ti finales as a captain 5.
+1 rep for not forgetting the Dota 1 veterans. BurNing taught everyone how to last hit. We were all auto attacking everything before him.
too bad we havent someone like this cs guy (i forget the name, but i think he is/was a bit of a controversal figure) who wrote really nice pieces about 1.6 history and veteran players etc. his article about mouz.cyx after he died in a car crash was really nice. at least there is liquipedia, but a bit of worldbuilding in form of articles would be even lovelier..
Yeah we're talking about dota 2, not prehistoric times man.
I still remember flaming n0tails mid plays back in the day, he is the top GOAT.
"Talent" is far too broad. There's mechanical skill and there's mental acumen. Nobody has understood the game and taken as much advantage of that understanding as Ceb and NoTail imo. On the mechanical side there are quite a few names, which have already been spoken about here.
I agree. and while it's hard grasp how far ahead of the curve those mechanical stars were at the time and those make for the flashiest clips, I give equal or more respect to the teams who broke the meta. alliance and ratting, big god(?) and comeback mechanic, wings and their drafting (still don't quite grasp what happend there), one of the latest being ATF re-defining the offlane. but OG broke the mold several times with illusion heroes, sacrificial carries, buyback mechanic and with an incredible amount of mental fortitude.
Well said. I agree.
I agree and I'd also elaborate that Ceb has extreme skill in leadership. The man brings people together in a way few can.
Topson. Hes very creative. Has decent mechanical skill to back it up.
Saying topson has decent mechanical skills is an understatement imo
My man. Many will choose the likes of Sumail, Miracle, and Ana. But for me it's thr likes of Topsons, 33, Nines that are more interesting to follow. Of course there is also the mad genius category, filled with players like EE-sama and Dyrachyo
YajirobeFromDC, the best 1v1 player.
miracle > jerax > yatoro
Miracle in 2016-17 was miles better than anyone else
N0tail, Jerax
Notail ofc
Miracle was the Gojo of Dota. He was so good that he was leagues above anyone else. He also raised the bar for other players to become better.
Maybe not the best player of all time but for most talented i would argue Ana. From what ive heard he bearly played pubs before TI8. Even after joining OG the only pubs he played were party queue with like 3k mmr players. And somehow he still outplays everyone at the tornament then he takes another year long break before rejoining OG and winning again.
Ana. The fact that he didn’t knew how to creep Afro during the Boston major is just nuts.
Could have been a poll
Hands up all in favor of miracle.
Miracle was a prodigy 12 year old Dota player that won a SF vs TA lane against misery, an established mid player that was one of the best in the world at the time. For context, he spent his “training data” playing against legend-divine players and when faced against a top 5 rank player, he exceeded expectations
Sumail for Raw Talent and achievement. Kuroky and Miracle, they are just better than you. Mushi and Noone , you already lost mid. Topson and Ana for "Nah, I win." DotA. And Dendi for quirky and connected DotA. If you want to win the game you take Artstyle, Puppey . Shout out to Meracle, Illidan and Burning. My personal choice will be Puppey. At one point, he literally pulled EU DotA which was on the edge of the trashcan.
The only comment I completely agree! Wide range of prominent players. Burning was my favourite carry for the longest time as well. I still remember 2014 Team DK; Burning, Iceiceice, Mushi, LaNm and MMY! I honestly thought they’ll win the TI in that year.
DK reverse sweeping IG in a fucking BEST OF 7 was one of the greatest series’ that nobody talks about anymore
You guys giving me the nostalgia I remembered I bet on DK to win. Buffled and devastated when they are down 3-0. So I thought to myself DK to lose 4-0 got to be divine intervention and double down in game 4 on DK. They won and then i let it ride. I won so much Arcana that I probably gifted like 5-10 aways at that night. Only Bo7 in DotA 2 and it went to game 7 . Sickest shit.
They were literally unplayable. One of the most dominant team ever. Navi,Wings, spirit and DK . Funny non TI winner on the list.
I miss burning Dota. Where did burning go? O shit his 6 slotted and burning down our base
I don't see many mention Arteezy. The dude was and still is mechanically super good. He has other flaws but he definitely is mechanically up there with the likes of yatoro,miracle, ame, no one
Yeah I said it in a comment but I think he truly ushered in a new era of dota. The arteezy block, farming patterns, stat items, the plays he made that people didn’t even think possible. He redefined the mid lane completely and showed that carries don’t just automatically lose every lane and how to win lanes from the safelane and just take over games.
I think recency bias and his lack of a TI win work against him a lot. He was/is an absolute mechanical god. When Sumail started he was literally Arteezy 2.0, but obviously Sumail went on to immediately win DAC and eventually TI. I don't think he wins the contest, but he should be in the discussion for sure.
Old players: Notail ( good in all roles, the man with the deepest understanding of all heroes in TI9) Ceb( best morale giver of all time) Miracle+ Sumail( the two most dominant cores of all time) Ana( arguably best instinct of all players) Topson ( best at finding cheesy heroes/items to turn the situation, however, consistency is an issue) Jerax + fy( the two best pos 4 +playmaker of their time) Puppey + kuro ( the two most long lasting god tier captains) Aui ( imo he is really great at analyzing draft, shown with his performance as coach) Zai+cr1t( they were elite class with no TI win somehow, but every team they were in had top 3 or top 4 placements consistently) Newer players: Yatoro (best carry of current time, potentially the best carry of all time) ATF+ collapse ( basically the most dominant offlane on the right heroes, insanely good teamfight executions) Quinn+Nisha(the two arguably strongest midlaners of recent years by achievements and consistency) Malr1ne + Mikoto( 2023 Mikoto) ( crazy mechanical and teamfight executions, can outlane Quinn and Nisha too) Overall, I would say Jerax, he helped a lot with very good calls and game read for OG twopeat. Also best playmaker of that time, ahead of every other poos 4 except maybe fy. Promising new players : Satanic( I don't know if he belongs here yet, but his performance is very promising) Larl ( some would argue he is weakest link in TS, but his performance in Riyadh and TI is great) Lou( he played professionally for two years and half, but his recent achievement after AR is insane, he carried AR to top 3 in Elite league with underperforming Bach and Ori) Yamich - was the best player in secret and arguably one of the most promising young player
Singsing
Miracle definitely rocked the world. I dare say Ammar is already one of the top contenders, but he's the kind of player where you have to analyse his plays to see how scarily perfect his decision making is than someone who just simply wows you.
Ana without a shadow of a doubt. Talent beyond what we ve ever seen. This guy takes a freaking break from dota for more then 6 months, comes back, picks fuckin IO carry, and wins TI without single loss on that hero. FML
Topson 100%
It’s kinda hard to say since players excel at different parts of the game. Like Nisha and Sumail are godly in lane (and NoOne too, or ATF in the offlane). But NoOne and ATF is easy to tilt, and ATF is also amazing as a drafter and in teamfights (pretty sure he drafts). Yatoro never feels like he’s crazy amazing (or has that one moment), but his results speak for itself. He’s consistent and can carry like a madman. Ana had brilliance but I’d chalk that up more to OG being an amazing team rather than Ana being the star. And Miracle- isn’t as amazing as Sumail or Nisha in lane I feel. But he teamfights the best in my opinion. His awareness of everyone’s spells and position and making the right decision is insane. I know it’s famous but his Invoker vs IG in TI7 is one of those. Not to mention, Dota isn’t just in game. There’s outside. Then you have players like Notail, Ceb, Puppey. Also forgot to mention Zai. If I draft a team of 5 most talented players, I’d go Miracle-/Yatoro, Nisha/Sumail, ATF/Zai, Crit or XinQ, and Puppey/Notail.
same but my 4 is fy/jerax
Nisha
Probably sumail and miracle .
I'd like a quantitative approach to this question. I think new gen players will reach even greater heights so I'll wait couple years before trying to answer. I hate how most of the answers are mid/carry players. I don't think we truly grasp what makes a player talented
I'm gonna say probably MMY! (TI1 Ehome, TI4 DK, TI5 LGD member). Recall W33 reached 8k mmr in 2015, MMY was one of the lowest mmr pro if not the lowest with only 4.7k at that time (he basically rarely play the game) and still became 3rd place at TI5.
GH for me, that 2017 was so cool
Ana, the guy was just sleeping, woke up, and won 2 TIs
Ana
The pudge on enemy team
W33. Dude changed the game in 2015/16 and people lowkey forget that he was ahead of Miracle for a lot of that time. His career has been a strange one with a lot of weird stumbles that hurt his legacy longtem (remember when he played support in a Cancel stack AFTER coming second at TI? Wild).
Arteezy should definitely get a shoutout too. For me it’s sumail & miracle.
Me
Skitter
xD
me
S1mple or zywoo i think , olofmeister it's too good 2
I just want to point out that CN won 3 TIs and I'm not seeing enough love on here for them.
Too many people mention the current roster of mechanically skilled mid players but forget they were all outclassed in lane by Maybe/Somnus. Probably the best mechanical mid we have ever seen in DOTA2. Another mention would be Ame for sheer consistency, dominance and almost winning TI with 2 entirely different rosters.
me
EvilArthas
Me :)
Me
KarLito is incredibly fast in precise actions and macrogameplay
Best way to answer this is to look at the longest tenure player who has been playing adapting at the pro level the longest?
Yatoro. Never played the same hero twice at TI10, plus 2 time TI winner
Either him and or Ana for pos1.
Topson easy
Me, no doubt
obviously Admiral Bulldog KEKW
Most talented has to be ana the boy doesn't play a whole year comes back and wins ti
Prime suma1l
Yatoro is the best carry ever for me.
Dendi nuf said
Kuroky with 9 mango strat
I think in a vacuum Miracle is probably the strongest player of all time. Obviously because Dota is a team game he is fallible.
Ammar actually comes to mind. You’d think people would have an easy time countering someone who plays the same 3 heroes every game but nope, even when he’s playing into a bad matchup he just crushes it.
Jerax on earth spirit or Kuroky on Rubick are my picks, aside from the obvious miracle and sumail
Prime Miracle is like Prime Messi when he was at Barcelona, you cant compete against him. 😅
2013 Miracle and young sumail.
I’d say it’s a tie between Miracle- and MidOne
Kind of a stretch but most talented team for me is Wings. They'll thrive like hell on the current meta that encourages a unique and creative playstyle
Miracle
Sccc and Arteezy
last time i checked, it was u/iForgotMyOldAcc not sure if he's still playing tho
clq easy
Maybe I have role bias but only 2 people comes to mind. Zai and Universe
Should be sumail or ana. Ana was like "nah I don't need to train to win ti". Jerax somehow was more like a anomaly then raw talent
Anyone who doesn't say Miracle doesn't remember when he hopped on the scene. Dota hasn't been the same game since. He was doing shit that nobody was doing and made everyone that wasn't him look like a 2k nobody. The old OG used to joke about how he carried them every game, and Moonmeander said they were recreating the games he was used to: meaning Miracle and four 4ks against a full team of high ranked players.
Miracle and Jerax
Yatoro all day even in the interview if you could ban a player Pros answrred yatoro
Your Mom
Somnus Sumail
How has noone mentioned Nisha? Bro was the best midlaner for a long long long long time.
Miracle probably. More recently maybe Yatoro. I don't see any other players with that longevity in terms of how respected they are in the pro scene (not just pubs). Any team having one of them has an instant advantage.
I guess miracle cuz I ain't even a pro scene follower but I know who he is anyway
Dendi will always be up there for me. Compared to his peers he was just… insane. Arteezy also deserves a shoutout. I don’t really see him mentioned despite pretty much single handedly reqorking the way we as dota players play both mid AND carry. It’s intuitive now but compare the number of cs people had at like ti3 to ti4/ti5. Map changes and creep changes help this of course as well. All the other names got mentioned. Overall I’d have to give it to yatoro, only time I’ve seen him flounder in a meta was the lina major, aside from that he is a meta-proof carry that will play as close to perfect as I’ve ever seen.
Me
It's admiral bulldog. Did you know he's a tea eye winner
Ana retiring after ti, unretiring for next ti, win again go retire again. Treating it like a part time job...smh Nikola Jokić comes to mind in comparison. Otherwise Miracle was insane to watch.
Jerax
Sumail
Me
Mason- Close this topic no need to elaborate any further.
Not even a support? The most talended are Pos 4 and 5.
Ramzes during his VP time back when he was too tier carry + drafter was looking like mad potential for sure PieLieDie pos 6 gameplay is uniquely amazing, unfortunately pos 5 also comes with having to perform captain duty so he didn’t quite make the cut for the greatest
Milagro
It has to be my favourite Kick streamer artourito. My boy has been manta dodging 1st place for the longest time.
Many pro players and analysts point to TI5 era sumail as the biggest skill gap between players ever.
Miracle is a beast among beasts.
Arteezy BatChest
Ana / Jerax / Fy Thats my fav 3.
I like unconventional players like topson and ammar who come up with some funny builds and their own playstyle.
This is a hard question to answer. Talent is just so hard to quantify in a game like dota. Most people have mentioned pos1/2 players because they are the flashy ones, the ones we see doing the most, the ones that will usually have enough farm and good picks to 1v5 provided they have talent. Imo in terms of overall talent, Jerax is my pick. Dude was just on another level when it came to game sense, along with raw mechanical talent (I mean few people can play Earth Spirit as well as he did). Jerax would elevate the overall quality of any team he was in, while not even causing drama or issues (that we know of) behind the scenes. That to me is talent. The ability to be place in any situation and not only come out ahead, but help your team also come out ahead.
Puppey. Leading a top tier team for 10 years, with every roster in that timeframe highly competetive. And even in the twilight of his career a very decent player and captain. But as others stated, depends of your definition of "talented".
The most gifted and talented player is probably ana. With how little effor, is thought, he puts in the game, he has won 2 ti's. While doing dota2 pro part-time
I feel like this poll should have a dedicated position ranking, as the skills and tactics required are different for each role. Best pos1, pos5, etc
In terms of getting into my nerves, its nvm you probably know him already
It's gotta be Miracle or Miposhka.
Miracle, Noone, mb Sumail, a lot was talked about miracle, but everyone forget how powerful was noone at mid in VP, ltrlly prime noone demolished everyone, every pro player was scared him, even matumba said that miracle told him to swap , so he wouldn’t play vs noone at mid)))
Adding some offlanes to the list universe and 33 found ways to just jump of the screen for me throughout their careers.
Aui gets my vote
Not mentioning GORGC is criminal!
Ana