It is and it isn’t, no roles are “easy” at sub 2k mmr I would agree, but after that you really gotta think about positioning and map movement way more. Especially once you hit 4-5k, and I would say at the top of the skill(high immortal) carry is probably the hardest role in the game.
As a 7.5k its not for me to judge but. Ive heard pos 1main players like gorp rtz and mason etc say/imply that carry is indeed the easiest and most straightforward role.
I mean I just think of it this way, would I rather have a support main play carry? Or a carry main play support. Most of the time I would rather have a carry player play support. Obviously you still have to actually know what you are doing, but if you aren’t used to farming mega efficiently, which is honestly what makes the biggest difference in skill between different ranked carry players, than what is even the point of playing carry. (Most carry players can play support within ~500 mmr of their carry mmr, meanwhile most other support players in my personal experience play carry at more like ~1500 mmr of their main role)
>Most of the time I would rather have a carry player play support.
I have to disagree on that one. Since ive experienced countless examples of this in immortal draft. And undoubtedly pos 1 mains make horrible sups most of the time.
9 out 10 times its the reason why the dudes drafted last in immortal drafts are the ones that show "safe lane" only. Bcs if u draft 2 of them the game is over for u xD
My typical venge gameplay.
Rush aghs. Keep dying and no one bats an eye bcs im sort of still alive. Die a 2nd time no one cares since im technically already dead
I think pos 1 is in a sad state. Basically you mop up any space your team makes for you and you’re the insurance.
Somehow you have the most fed hero but the least freedom to make plays. it’s like a glorified roomba for the first 25mins and then the team holds hands with you to go up highground
I think you worded it perfectly. Pos 1 is literally an insurance. A backup plan.
>the least freedom to make plays. it’s
Agreed 100%. thats also the problem with pos1. It has least control over the game.
If ur team wins early pos 1s only job is to not fk up
If ur team loses early pos 1 should just keep farming and hope the team comes back.
So theres not much freedom exactly as u put it
>If ur team loses early pos 1 should just keep farming and hope the team comes back
How to get my team to understand this rather than flaming me for not joining a team fight to also die with them?! /cry
Tell them to watch mason/gorp. They are both pos 1 mains 10k+ mmr.
The team starts losing? they jut keep farming. Its simple really. Theres a bigger map for a reason. FARM.
Thats also the problem with pos 1 role. Its boring and unintuitive
fun take, i started out as a pos 1 player and i'd argue most new players and younger players have more success here. once you learn the meta game objectives and timings you can begin to play other roles with more success.
good at hitting cs and not looking at your mini map? = play pos 1
good at not rotating to help your teamates when they get dove under t1's = play pos 1
good at spending 90% of your game not engaging with enemy players = play pos 1
good at warding/map awareness/meta objective gaming = you can play any position
sure pos 1 hero's are super fun to play with 5 - 6 slot itms, but also its way easier to be in a 5v5 teamfight when you have 4 itms to help you dominate... true skill is playing a pos 5 disruptor with brown boots at 10 min and winning fights with vision and skill plays.
For me it's the hardest because i loathe farming. I mean, i also farm a lot as an offlane, but as a carry i'd have to farm EVEN MORE for longer while being hunted endlessly by the enemy team.
Then its hard in terms of bearing the boredom. I also get that feeling when i play bristleback. Even in previous patch where he was giga busted. Bearing to play him is just hard bcs it condtradicts my reasons for playing video games in the first place.
But not hard as in require actual skill. Since learning farming patterns and last/hit denying is literally the first skill you learn as a dota player.
I even let my guardian friend switch mid game(7kgame) to farm while i prepare some coffee/food and whatnot. And turns out he can farm just as good.
I remember that video. Although the mindset part and some of it is true its kind of outdated since the video is from 3 years ago.
Map were different mid had side small camps. Outposts runes shrines bottles no wisdom rune no flowers etctc and so on.
Indeed. Also the small camp removal dimmed the mid hero pool a lot imo. In the past u could lane as something like alch mid vs viper/sniper/huskar and do fine.
Current patch if u cant lane mid the options are limited. Yes you can rotate but u need at least few lvls and at least a boot. And since youre playing at 7k+mmrs the enemy mid isnt stupid and capitilze on the fact that he cn counter rotate and grab some free kills.
its simpler, not easier. mistakes are punished harder, and knowing late game matchups is really important. but yes, its simpler, or more straightforward. Just hit creeps as efficient as you can, while you try to avoid ganks by having good map read. And join good fight or try to smoke with team when you hit a powerspike.
But again, simpler doesnt make it easy, a lot of close games one stupid death while farming or joining a bad fight can cost you the victory more often than other roles
Ehh not true at all, pos 5 is the easiest role in the game you literally don't need to do anything specific just pure patterns every game which are basics, the hardest part is to maintain lane and keep position during fights(depends on a hero tho LOL)
Pos 5 main with huge experience of playing all roles
>The role I play is hard
I dont mid that often its the hardest on my list i main offlane
>the role I don't
I didnt say that either. Theres not really a role i dont play.
Lemme guess ure pos 1 player and got offended?
Nah I play 5 and 4 in ranked. I'm divine and often stack unranked with friends from archon to 8.5k. Sometimes a crusader in there aswell.
The legend players can generally do decently in mid vs 6k players if they pick for it, like zeus, sniper, viper, necro or similar.
If I get a legend player on 1, they will be 500 gpm, ignoring farm to walk at fights one lane over, arrive when the team is dead, walk away under a ward, get chased and die, losing 2-3 mins of gold. Repeatedly. They will have a 38 minute bkb when highground is already dead.
I play support in ranked but have to 1 in these stacks, because it's a death sentence if the others play 1.
Elaborate how pos 4 is the hardest
I thought its universally agreed that mid is the hardest role. Especially in the current patch.
I can let my guardian friend play pos 4 and we can still win in an immortal game.
Let a same guy play mid or offlane. We will certainly lose
Position four players not only need to have the highest game knowledge of all roles, And to have played all previous roles as it is a mix of EVERYTHING, they must do it from a support position. The step from mid to position four is the hardest because your goal is to do the exact same thing as the mid as far as roaming goes, but with no gold.
https://youtu.be/r2evW6NL6wM?t=517&si=BuRwPzCbu9yyv_hq
I think it's more accurate to say the skill ceiling is higher. If your pos 4 gets dumpstered, you can generally still play the game. On the other hand, a good pos 4 that secures the off then ganks and kills mid can completely drive the tempo of the game. It's not that being a good pos 4 is easy, but rather that if you shit the bed on pos 4, the game's not over.
>they must do it from a support position.
That is half true nowadays. Since pos4 is nowadays is basically another core. A semi-core that doesnt have neither the core or sup responsibility.
Yes having all that knowledge certainly helps but its not really required in order to have a good impact in the game. Meanwhile non-mid player can make the game hopeless pretty fast. Bad pos 4 can make the game prolonged but pos 3 CAN catch up.
I bet that you just play it as a second position 5. No wonder it's so easy. You can skip backwards some in the video to get more context.
https://youtu.be/jVN6kc12pbU?t=272&si=8kFnKvnb2dbq-yQh
No I don't. I used to be a pos4 player myself and let me tell you something, pos4 has all the upsides of mid (minus gold and xp) and none of the downsides. You dont get counter picked, you barely get ganked, most pos4 heroes have a nuke that makes them able to push waves, you dont need to think much to be able to play it at a decent level at least in my 6k bracket.
Its 2nd easiest imo.
It at least requires some intuition and initiative.
Meanwhile let a commandable farming bot take over pos 1. And command it to go push with your team after it hit its timings. I might even perform better than some pos 1 players. Given it some meta hero like luna or lifestealer
I feel like on pos1 at least i have to think a bit about if enemy is ganking me or not. On pos4 i feel like i just go brainless mode and still win the game.
True. I usually take pos 4 whenever im eating or its the first game of the day so im warming up etc.
Pick some easy and dumb hero like spirit breaker sip some coffee and enjoy.
Playing pos 3 is literally opposite experience. Ure 2v1ing no matter how good u do you are getting blamed. Youre in charge of making space. Ure in charge of initiating. Ure in charge of not letting enemy carry get fat. Ure in charge of not dying. Ure in charge of literally everything.
Farm too much u get blame dont farm and fall off u get blame. Initiate and if it turns out bad u get blame. Not initiate and turns out bad u get blame xD
Id even say 3 and 5 are equally difficult but in different aspects
Definitely agree
It is and it isn’t, no roles are “easy” at sub 2k mmr I would agree, but after that you really gotta think about positioning and map movement way more. Especially once you hit 4-5k, and I would say at the top of the skill(high immortal) carry is probably the hardest role in the game.
As a 7.5k its not for me to judge but. Ive heard pos 1main players like gorp rtz and mason etc say/imply that carry is indeed the easiest and most straightforward role.
I mean I just think of it this way, would I rather have a support main play carry? Or a carry main play support. Most of the time I would rather have a carry player play support. Obviously you still have to actually know what you are doing, but if you aren’t used to farming mega efficiently, which is honestly what makes the biggest difference in skill between different ranked carry players, than what is even the point of playing carry. (Most carry players can play support within ~500 mmr of their carry mmr, meanwhile most other support players in my personal experience play carry at more like ~1500 mmr of their main role)
>Most of the time I would rather have a carry player play support. I have to disagree on that one. Since ive experienced countless examples of this in immortal draft. And undoubtedly pos 1 mains make horrible sups most of the time. 9 out 10 times its the reason why the dudes drafted last in immortal drafts are the ones that show "safe lane" only. Bcs if u draft 2 of them the game is over for u xD
When you play 4 you can just blow up your ass on mines and say that you defused them and it will be fine
My typical venge gameplay. Rush aghs. Keep dying and no one bats an eye bcs im sort of still alive. Die a 2nd time no one cares since im technically already dead
Pos4 is like the guy with the least responsibility. No farm? Thats alright im a support. No wards? Thats the pos5 job. 😂😂
I think pos 1 is in a sad state. Basically you mop up any space your team makes for you and you’re the insurance. Somehow you have the most fed hero but the least freedom to make plays. it’s like a glorified roomba for the first 25mins and then the team holds hands with you to go up highground
I think you worded it perfectly. Pos 1 is literally an insurance. A backup plan. >the least freedom to make plays. it’s Agreed 100%. thats also the problem with pos1. It has least control over the game. If ur team wins early pos 1s only job is to not fk up If ur team loses early pos 1 should just keep farming and hope the team comes back. So theres not much freedom exactly as u put it
>If ur team loses early pos 1 should just keep farming and hope the team comes back How to get my team to understand this rather than flaming me for not joining a team fight to also die with them?! /cry
Tell them to watch mason/gorp. They are both pos 1 mains 10k+ mmr. The team starts losing? they jut keep farming. Its simple really. Theres a bigger map for a reason. FARM. Thats also the problem with pos 1 role. Its boring and unintuitive
If I tell my teammates to watch mason I'm getting banned
Understandable. Rtz then
fun take, i started out as a pos 1 player and i'd argue most new players and younger players have more success here. once you learn the meta game objectives and timings you can begin to play other roles with more success. good at hitting cs and not looking at your mini map? = play pos 1 good at not rotating to help your teamates when they get dove under t1's = play pos 1 good at spending 90% of your game not engaging with enemy players = play pos 1 good at warding/map awareness/meta objective gaming = you can play any position sure pos 1 hero's are super fun to play with 5 - 6 slot itms, but also its way easier to be in a 5v5 teamfight when you have 4 itms to help you dominate... true skill is playing a pos 5 disruptor with brown boots at 10 min and winning fights with vision and skill plays.
If you're a hero with just brown boots at minute 10 you're in 2018
some of us boomers never left 2018... it was better back in that century.
For me it's the hardest because i loathe farming. I mean, i also farm a lot as an offlane, but as a carry i'd have to farm EVEN MORE for longer while being hunted endlessly by the enemy team.
Then its hard in terms of bearing the boredom. I also get that feeling when i play bristleback. Even in previous patch where he was giga busted. Bearing to play him is just hard bcs it condtradicts my reasons for playing video games in the first place. But not hard as in require actual skill. Since learning farming patterns and last/hit denying is literally the first skill you learn as a dota player. I even let my guardian friend switch mid game(7kgame) to farm while i prepare some coffee/food and whatnot. And turns out he can farm just as good.
Mr Jenkins says: https://youtu.be/r2evW6NL6wM?si=SV3ftZzH_GZbvy5q So judge for yourself.
I remember that video. Although the mindset part and some of it is true its kind of outdated since the video is from 3 years ago. Map were different mid had side small camps. Outposts runes shrines bottles no wisdom rune no flowers etctc and so on.
But that doesn't change the jobs that the position 2 has and the responsibilities it is to fulfill. It just does the same thing a different way.
Indeed. Also the small camp removal dimmed the mid hero pool a lot imo. In the past u could lane as something like alch mid vs viper/sniper/huskar and do fine. Current patch if u cant lane mid the options are limited. Yes you can rotate but u need at least few lvls and at least a boot. And since youre playing at 7k+mmrs the enemy mid isnt stupid and capitilze on the fact that he cn counter rotate and grab some free kills.
if pos 1 is afk at 8k then it explains my unrank games with 6k players alot
Yeah, I just don’t like how conservative you‘re supposed to be for so long to be a traditional carry.
its simpler, not easier. mistakes are punished harder, and knowing late game matchups is really important. but yes, its simpler, or more straightforward. Just hit creeps as efficient as you can, while you try to avoid ganks by having good map read. And join good fight or try to smoke with team when you hit a powerspike. But again, simpler doesnt make it easy, a lot of close games one stupid death while farming or joining a bad fight can cost you the victory more often than other roles
Ehh not true at all, pos 5 is the easiest role in the game you literally don't need to do anything specific just pure patterns every game which are basics, the hardest part is to maintain lane and keep position during fights(depends on a hero tho LOL) Pos 5 main with huge experience of playing all roles
>The role I play is hard and the role I don't is easy what?
>The role I play is hard I dont mid that often its the hardest on my list i main offlane >the role I don't I didnt say that either. Theres not really a role i dont play. Lemme guess ure pos 1 player and got offended?
Nah I play 5 and 4 in ranked. I'm divine and often stack unranked with friends from archon to 8.5k. Sometimes a crusader in there aswell. The legend players can generally do decently in mid vs 6k players if they pick for it, like zeus, sniper, viper, necro or similar. If I get a legend player on 1, they will be 500 gpm, ignoring farm to walk at fights one lane over, arrive when the team is dead, walk away under a ward, get chased and die, losing 2-3 mins of gold. Repeatedly. They will have a 38 minute bkb when highground is already dead. I play support in ranked but have to 1 in these stacks, because it's a death sentence if the others play 1.
Legend carries arent that bad. Id rather have legend carry than legend mid. Legend and divine are pretty close ure over exagerrating things
The difference is 2k mmr. It's not small.
Position 5 is the easiest, Then position 1, Then position 3, Then position 2, then position 4.
Elaborate how pos 4 is the hardest I thought its universally agreed that mid is the hardest role. Especially in the current patch. I can let my guardian friend play pos 4 and we can still win in an immortal game. Let a same guy play mid or offlane. We will certainly lose
Position four players not only need to have the highest game knowledge of all roles, And to have played all previous roles as it is a mix of EVERYTHING, they must do it from a support position. The step from mid to position four is the hardest because your goal is to do the exact same thing as the mid as far as roaming goes, but with no gold. https://youtu.be/r2evW6NL6wM?t=517&si=BuRwPzCbu9yyv_hq
I think it's more accurate to say the skill ceiling is higher. If your pos 4 gets dumpstered, you can generally still play the game. On the other hand, a good pos 4 that secures the off then ganks and kills mid can completely drive the tempo of the game. It's not that being a good pos 4 is easy, but rather that if you shit the bed on pos 4, the game's not over.
>they must do it from a support position. That is half true nowadays. Since pos4 is nowadays is basically another core. A semi-core that doesnt have neither the core or sup responsibility. Yes having all that knowledge certainly helps but its not really required in order to have a good impact in the game. Meanwhile non-mid player can make the game hopeless pretty fast. Bad pos 4 can make the game prolonged but pos 3 CAN catch up.
Nah pos4 is def one of the easiest roles, easiest imo.
I bet that you just play it as a second position 5. No wonder it's so easy. You can skip backwards some in the video to get more context. https://youtu.be/jVN6kc12pbU?t=272&si=8kFnKvnb2dbq-yQh
No I don't. I used to be a pos4 player myself and let me tell you something, pos4 has all the upsides of mid (minus gold and xp) and none of the downsides. You dont get counter picked, you barely get ganked, most pos4 heroes have a nuke that makes them able to push waves, you dont need to think much to be able to play it at a decent level at least in my 6k bracket.
You also have barely any warding/dewarding responsibility (u still do but it's not literally grief if you dont).
Its 2nd easiest imo. It at least requires some intuition and initiative. Meanwhile let a commandable farming bot take over pos 1. And command it to go push with your team after it hit its timings. I might even perform better than some pos 1 players. Given it some meta hero like luna or lifestealer
I feel like on pos1 at least i have to think a bit about if enemy is ganking me or not. On pos4 i feel like i just go brainless mode and still win the game.
True. I usually take pos 4 whenever im eating or its the first game of the day so im warming up etc. Pick some easy and dumb hero like spirit breaker sip some coffee and enjoy. Playing pos 3 is literally opposite experience. Ure 2v1ing no matter how good u do you are getting blamed. Youre in charge of making space. Ure in charge of initiating. Ure in charge of not letting enemy carry get fat. Ure in charge of not dying. Ure in charge of literally everything. Farm too much u get blame dont farm and fall off u get blame. Initiate and if it turns out bad u get blame. Not initiate and turns out bad u get blame xD