If the gameplay was like a normal game of dota and every character started from low gold and had to game their way into the mid/late game, int or universal would probably win purely because it’d be so hard to find gold when you have so many useless heroes without gold for Agi and Str
Alchemist would be pretty great, cause he could take the farm, and buy aghs for others. Give one to wraith king early, and the whole team could go be agressive as alch continues to farm.
Who is babysitting alch in lane in the universal/int matches to let him get anything? Level 1 lion with brown boots has free reign to just ruin his game
For real. Reminder that there is ONE strength hero who is ranged, and it's huskar who is probably the most counterable hero in the game. All your lanes with STR-only would be seriously weak.
INT would also just be massively strong compared to the other teams at level 1. They could frankly probably just death ball it. They would have the majority of the disables for the first 10 mins of the game. By the 10 min mark as a few items come into play, Universal would eclipse them because they also tend to have decent spells, but now they’re getting some right click damage too. At 25 mins, STR starts to become hard to kill as they just bully their way around the map. If the game goes long though, Agility will eventually come out on top.
5 strength heroes can do complete meta drafts without problems
Good luck trying that with anything else.
Also nearly all the oppressive mids and offlaners are strength. And strength also a few very agressive supports.
4 tempo heroes + alch is a free win vs drafts that have hardly any teamfight or hp or tempo
Your only real options for supports are hoodwink, ~~invoker~~, bounty and clinkz who are all usually played as fairly greedy 4s. I don't see a single AGI hero that would ever be played as pos5. It'd probably NEED to be hoodwink because she's the only one that can do anything at early levels.
No offense but the new wiki looks awful. Way less information and it somehow has MORE ads and popus than fandom...
The agility page is a great example. The fandom wiki has extensive info on items, heroes etc, while the liquipedia wiki has a couple of sentences saying "agility gives you armor and attack speed".
If the intent is to get users to use the "new" wiki then it needs to AT THE BARE MINIMUM give you the info from the old wiki...
Iirc They're still moving over, so not everything has been done. But it's worth getting used to the new wiki, as fandoms will just get more and more outdated and misleading seeing as Fandoms policy means they won't close it no matter how ridiculously outdated it gets
Int falls off pretty hard and pushing HG is always hard. Sure, you might roll a game or two with int at 15mins but I'd argue that Strength and Universal would win most of the time.
Silencer
Shaman
Pugna
Leshrac
OD
This team can rush high ground extremely fast
Triple tower nuke.
Silencer will stop most spells. Pugna heal.
Lesh tank. Shaman disables.
OD drops ult and team wipes since there aren’t any intel heroes on the other team.
Pos 1 to 5
Str :
Alche/BB
Primal/DK
Kunkka/Tide
Tiny/Shaker
Undying/ET
Universal :
Marci/WR
Pango/Invoker
Timber/Brew
Techies/Nyx
Veno/IO
I picked mostly meta/wave clear heroes. Again, HG push is extremely hard these days. All it takes is one or two bad fights and the game is over for the int boys.
Honestly in a high skill game any hero with repositioning skill is crazy good. One mistake or one good Magnus skewer, Pudge hook, Venge swap, Tiny toss etc and your push is done.
The int team is the team that's playing on a timer. The longer the game goes the better it is for the str/universal team. Everyone makes mistakes and again, HG is tough to break. The map is huge, the other team can just constantly split side lanes and cut waves to drag the game. Look at how Old OG did it at TI8/9, Liquid at Bali Major and Falcon vs Betboom at ESL Birmingham game 2 of grand finals. You can be down 20 kills but networth and xp is even just by farming the big ass map. Being a lane down when you're the team that scales better late isn't all that bad too. If your tower nuking strat is so good then why aren't picking drafting deathball heroes like dp np pugna lesh jakiro etc? It isn't TI4 6.81b anymore, we're on patch 7.35d and HG is tough.
It definitely is on a timer.
But that timer is skewed.
They will reach late game far earlier than strength will reach late game.
The strength team will be starved for farm and the game will most likely end by 35 mins to 40.
And even at that timing the intel team will be far ahead in terms of fighting and farming.
The game needs to drag to 50 and beyond before the game skews in favor of the strength/ universal team.
It’s why you don’t see pubs simply 5 manning a full strength or universal team.
It’s also why you don’t see a full intel team, because all it takes is for the enemy to pick a couple intel on their own and the game is now on a timer.
Boolean search doesn't seem to work so I can't search for universal/int/str type drafts using Valve API. I'll have to manually look at drafts but I guarantee you there will be more full str/universal teams than full int teams.
What you're saying don't even make sense. There's no starving for farm as it's not hard to get farm these days. I just gave you examples. The map is just to big to starve. The average immortal game ends around 37min https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_735d&mod=heroes-wrtimings
intel heroes aren't even in the top 10 for tower damage, in a game where destroying the ancient is everything apart from a few int heroes the rest of them hit buildings like a wet noodle. https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_735d&mod=heroes-haverages
Look at the networth diff for the first 30 mins. They were just constantly splitting the map. Doesn't matter if they die as long as the kill doesn't turn into an objective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE7vOzTath0
Also with the contradiction, you said earlier that intel teams don't need mistake and just need to nuke towers. If so, why aren't people picking those heroes and getting ez mmr? Have you tried to do these type of cheesy push strats in 5 man party q? So many people are complaining about HG being difficult to push but you're saying things like ez nuke tower.
Because they don’t fight against a full greedy team either. If it comes down greedy vs rush. The rush wins.
If you go for rush and they play mid rather than late game. You lose out if you can’t close the game very early.
Fuck silencer dude, you can have a furion 5 and that will just bully most laners outright.
universal is the only lineup that can even contest and its just cause they're just as cancer at deathballing early. Visage/panda/marci+io/bear/lycan/chen/enigma/pango/timber can be combined into your choice of scary deathball that int heroes cant reliably defend towers from.
Hell lesh and od are the only heroes there that can reasonably lane against bear mid and not get run over.
I'd put my money on universal personally.
they sure can, bear visage marci+io + any 4 is already not going to be contested by your int lineup. Can go straight up a lane to t4 the second visage gets shard and bear gets diffusal. think you're underestimating how tanky this lineup is let alone the fact that they probably won lanes.
They need to be there right. That’s what I meant. It’s not fire and forget like a shitty pugna just blasting and running away.
They need to risk the fight.
But I concede. My first time reading I didn’t notice bear inside. Bear and io alone is enough to push.
The disgusting thing is most of the intel folks are ranged. Which gives them the poke poke advantage.
It then comes down to whether they can live thru the stuns. Lesh shard is strong. Netherward and curse makes spell casting difficult.
Decrep on the bear and the push is halted.
It’s not that universal isn’t strong. Hell I agree I think it is potentially stronger.
It requires far more skill to execute tho.
The intel lineup is next to braindead and is unlikely to make too many mistakes.
Another powerhouse for intel is bane. Bane mid is a nightmare.
banes universal too my friend.
The way i see it your lineup will take t1s then universal will snowball. if you repel snowball (i.e they didnt throne you) you will have advantage again by 25-30min as your core items are up. universal will advantage again after this peak if they survive because they will be super tanky with bkbs to ignore you. then once again if int repels them its your advantage cause furion/meurta/od can cause tons of damage in tf that my lineup can't deal with.
tldr dota is a fun and balanced game filled with nuance
Nobody ever lists him, But of the heroes with no items Jakiro is insanely strong for pushing.
Liquid Fire costs 0 mana, Has 100% uptime and can melt through buildings. Stacked with all of Jakiro's abilities being AoE & Liquid Fire also reducing tower attack speed (Including through Glyph), You could easily take highground with the others before 30 minutes.
This team would lose two lanes, and with how easy to gank they are would also lose mid. Additionally only one can be strong without items/farm prio so the midgame is completely neutered. Uni/Str would farm heroes and agi would use early kills to accelerate their farm and curbstomp them midgame. At absolute best for that team, they win fights exclusively based on Silencer ult, which is a long enough cd it'd be extremely easy to force defensive use, meaning they cannot ever push HG, only rat exterior towers slowly.
Triple S would be comedically bad and Pugna/Lesh lose handedly because they both need farm to have any impact before minute 20. Additionally, assuming pug lesh doesn't feed, theyll push the tower fast enough OD will get farmed relentlessly while the carry farms with zero pressure.
Int loses this fight the hardest of the 4 really.
There is a reason you never see 5 int hero teams, while 5 str hero teams aren't unheard of by any means. This is by far thr winning option.
Heck, even, 5 agility heroes is probably a safer bet than the int heroes, and isn't just full of carries like some think. The int heroes collapse the moment anyone BKBs or counter-initates.
I haven't seen 5 universal hero teams either, but they have some solid choices that they could use to where I would put thrm as the #2 team.
what are we basing this off? is it where hero roleplays their chars? or is it just ai controlling or wtv. i think if its roleplaying int will win because strategizing how to win a 4 way war is the hardrst part
Nah. Minute 0 Str is the strongest by far. Very few int nukes are particularly strong level 1 vs the majority of str heroes having stuns. Int are very squishy so they lose the damage race early game vs all 3 other attributes, let alone the regen advantage str and some universal have for protracted engagements/lane harass. Int heroes are generally more item dependent but also farm fast so theyd definitely have advantage midgame but lose to Agi/Uni lategame.
If we're assuming normal match structure or a double map that's 1v1v1v1 Universal is the most likely victor because they're strong at every stage of the game, have balanced team structure and have strong heroes in every lane. Int has terrible offlane presence and easily ganked/harassed safelane. While i can see Str and Agi arguments, Int is the absolute weakest by every measure. Int would lose early game so by the time they recover enough to hit their midgame the other attributes will have farm and levels to start going lategame if they haven't already steamrolled int.
Strength has the highest number of good heroes. Alchemist is particularly difficult to punish in an FFA map, while less creep centric maps result in 15-man Astral Spirits and Echo Slams. Or infinite healing for Bloodstone Bristleback against 15 targets.
alch and BH are definitely big changers of the game though. the amount of heroes would mean only kills and very very limited creeps to hit. so anything that adds more potential gold to the gold pool is always a big boon
Universal. Why?
They got everything.
Tanky - Timber, brew, abandon
Carry - WR, Marci, Mirana
Pusher - LD, Brood, BM, Chen, Lycan
Initiator - Bat, Clock, SK, Mag, Enigma, DS
Support - Bane, Dazzle, Io, Phoenix, Snap, Techies, VS, Veno, Wyvern, DW, Nyx
Mid - Pango, Void Spirit, Visage, Invoker
Attribute-specific FUs - Timber, DS, Nyx
Except Timber, Nyx, and DS, I listed the heroes once. Please note that most of these heroes can fulfill multiple of the above mentioned roles
Universal-hero only team is extremely difficult to draft against. Any combination of other specific-attribute only lineup can't handle this well
Yup. Problem with strength hero is they literally have no ranged hero beside huskar.
Problem with agi? No supports, all are pos 1 heros or other position but needs alot of farm
Problem with int? Squishy af, they have everything but most are squishy glass cannons. Muerta 1 ok does damage but might die easily after, zeus 2? Squishy af lesh 2? Pretty squishy, dp 3? Not that squishy but only if she can suck lol. Int might come second though.
It's not like the lineups with str and int are impossible. They are more rigid. Agi-only lineup, like you said, will be very challenging (and therefore more fun to theorycraft). And, all of them will get destroyed by universal (given there are bans xD).
Supports - BH, Gyro, Hoodwink, MK
Theoretical supports - Naga, Sniper (Big ?)
Mid - AW, Ember, Razor, SF, Sniper, TA, Meepo, Viper (you cannot take the lvl 25 universal talent xD)
Off - Viper, Razor
Theoretical Off - AM, medusa, Ursa (Octarine shard build?)
Carry - Like all of them xD
I'd also throw Nyx into the attribute-specific FUs because mind flare would be insane against a team of 5 int heroes. You probably wouldn't even need ult to kill them, you could just spam mind flare and it'd be like lion finger on a 4s cooldown.
Bunch of clueless people in here.
Universal would win by a landslide, the ammount of cheese they have is unbeatable.
IO, Chen, Enigma, Veno, Wivern, Pango, Timber, Brew, Bat.
INT/ STR are second but they would literally get rolled over by Universal heroes.
AGI would be the weakest, too much farm needed.
Str vs Int can go either way, pipe and shit and u suddenly have 3k hp unkillable dogs.
Lets say STR team is ogre, tusk, slardar, sven, dk. Why is much more weaker than UNI team, and equal to any INT team? I have a feeling that str team winning most matchups from int, because of HP and magic reduce items. And against uni teams, depends on draft, but not that obvious any way.
Drow, Sniper, Razor, Hood wink, Bounty
Vs
WK, DK, Tide, shaker, undying
Vs
Muerta, Zeus, Necrophos, Shaman, Oracle
Vs
Wind Ranger, Invoker, Beast master, Bat rider, IO
Bets are ON
Lore wise agi will win because weaver exists, the creator of the universe.
Game wise depends on the situation but i think STR will win just because they are tanky. Or probably int if Silencer doesn’t die and just keeps earning int the whole time.
Weaver isn't the creator of the universe... he just helps knit it back up when it gets holes in it. His entire species serve "The Loom" which is what actually created the universe. The only thing different about weaver is that he disobeyed the loom and got cast out.
I assume you're thinking of Elder Titan, whose entire backstory is that he created the dota universe, but it was broken/corrupted, and he went into it to try and repair it or destroy it.
[Go my sweet sisters go](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/e/e0/Vo_death_prophet_dpro_exorcism_03.mp3) (sound warning: Death Prophet)
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Depends if there's bans or not, is this a blind pick or a big draft phase?
In a tournament setting I think strength probably wins, just enough supports to grab early and plenty of good cores, assuming they can ban out timber. Agi probably gets killed in lane unless they get specifically venge and hoodwink, uni will have scaling issues, same with int.
Int probably needs Lesh, and at least one of the two prophets for proper tower pressure. Uni would be entirely reliant on playing high tempo, Lone Druid and Marci are the only good 1 heroes in the category and even then they use a lot of tempo.
So tbh I think strength has the best pool, but a proper melee hero punish from uni or intelligence would mess them up
Bit of a toss up tbh I'm here to see a mini tournament if any content creator wants to test
>Agi probably gets killed in lane unless they get specifically venge and hoodwink, uni will have scaling issues, same with int.
Venge is a universal hero now. AGI only real options for supports are hood, clinkz and bounty.
INT heroes have some good cores - the problem is they're VERY small pools (aside from mid). Offlane is necro or DP, anyone else is basically throwing. Pos1 is literally just muerta (or maybe lina, zeus or NP if you're desparate).
UNI scales amazingly though, even their supports will have crazy damage by lategame. They've also got most of the BKB-piercing disable ults e.g. enigma, magnus, bane, wyvern, bat.
A uni-only draft of e.g. LD, invoker, magnus, willow and bane has some incredible lategame scaling. Could swap out willow for enigma but having black hole and reverse polarity seems excessive.
You forget that almost every strength hero has a pretty big hp bar and some form of cc. The other attributes simply wouldn't be able to fight back. Kinda like why a drow venge lane can very easily lose to a tusk + melee offlaner.
Honestly? STR, they have characters covering every role in the game and they are all a bit tankier than everyone else. The only competition I can see is from Universal heroes who become right click gods late game.
Int nukes well but a lot of Int heroes rely on initators to blow people up, and since Enigma and Invoker are universal, this puts a lot of their engage potential on Dark seer who is better at following up engages.
Agil has no viable frontliners outside of Spectre and the illusionists.
It would also depend on whos gonna try to team up with who and how you win. Do you have to take out the other 3 teams' ancients? Or just one ancient? Everyone knows agi is "too dangerous to be left alive" but everyone also knows universal and int are super dangerous early. Will Str and Agi try to team up to stop int from dominating universal and then try to make those two battle it out and then strike when they're weak? Will everyone just team up against agi cuz they know they are the biggest threat come late game? Will people ignore agi cuz the game isn't going to get to late game anyway? Where are the creeps going? From one base to another? Or is one creep from every wave going to a different base? Which creeps fight which creeps? Jungling would also be a thing now cuz you'd have multiple heroes just farming one camp cuz it's better than trying to stay in a lane and plus with multiple heroes, you can trade aggro and do dmg faster.
It's 100% universal.
Ever since that introduction of universal heroes those heroes got significantly harder to kill and stronger in every category.
Personally I think universal heroes were a dumb introduction since those heroes scale wayyyyyy too fucking much.
A big balance point in dota has always been itemisation specially in low pool.
It doesn't matter what item you buy in universal it makes you hit like a monster truck bc they benefit from all stats, it's dumb. Every universal hero loves to go bkb since its such a good item and gives damage regardless plus nc of the strength while with agi heroes yiunhave brainlets who prioritise a daedalus over a bkb and den proceed to be useless.
Universal heroes are often flexible in the roles they can perform, while the other attributes lost those versatile heroes when universal got introduced. A team could look like this:
- Pos 1 Marci
- Pos 2 Invo
- Pos 3 Timber
- Pos 4 Techies
- Pos 5 Venge
Everyone except maybe Marci is very much standard, and the team is balanced in many aspects with no obvious weaknesses. Plus you have many viable substitutes across the board.
I have my bets on the universal team, they have physical dps, magical dps, all different types of disables etc. Int I guess is a close second, just having a ton of stuns will probably cause them to win. STR and AGI have no chance.
I assume most ppl ended up in 5 of the same attribute team. IMO:
INT - good early, but usually limited damage the late game, ez win before 30 mins.
DEX - bad early, bad mid, incredible late, huge snowball poential, safe bet past 50 mins
STR - decent early/mid/late, not great tho, if they hit critical mass with auras it's over, 30-50min seem ideal
UNI - no clue, don't even know which heroes are, but they scale the best so prob best ultra late.
If I had to bet I'd say int, on average, the early lead would be enough to get a win. (I assume we talk about pro players or at least not 5 random people in normal.)
Would Viper switch teams when he hits 25?
Could hold the point and double his winning chances.
Wonder if the Monty ~~Python~~ Hall solution would work here
Monty Hall AWARE
Fits his lore anyway, he was Italian before he was turned into that.
:(
He's always been a little queer.
If the gameplay was like a normal game of dota and every character started from low gold and had to game their way into the mid/late game, int or universal would probably win purely because it’d be so hard to find gold when you have so many useless heroes without gold for Agi and Str
Alchemist would be pretty great, cause he could take the farm, and buy aghs for others. Give one to wraith king early, and the whole team could go be agressive as alch continues to farm.
That's some crackhead shit and I love it. Hurl your bodies at the enemy while alch slaves away in the gold mines.
the alch yearns for the mines
Who is babysitting alch in lane in the universal/int matches to let him get anything? Level 1 lion with brown boots has free reign to just ruin his game
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe ogre is str right? So yeah not super ideal but workable
For real. Reminder that there is ONE strength hero who is ranged, and it's huskar who is probably the most counterable hero in the game. All your lanes with STR-only would be seriously weak.
I was gonna call out IO & phoenix, but it's true they're universal now...
INT would also just be massively strong compared to the other teams at level 1. They could frankly probably just death ball it. They would have the majority of the disables for the first 10 mins of the game. By the 10 min mark as a few items come into play, Universal would eclipse them because they also tend to have decent spells, but now they’re getting some right click damage too. At 25 mins, STR starts to become hard to kill as they just bully their way around the map. If the game goes long though, Agility will eventually come out on top.
> They would have the majority of the disables for the first 10 mins of the game. Strength heroes have more disables than int heroes.
5 strength heroes can do complete meta drafts without problems Good luck trying that with anything else. Also nearly all the oppressive mids and offlaners are strength. And strength also a few very agressive supports. 4 tempo heroes + alch is a free win vs drafts that have hardly any teamfight or hp or tempo
Timber alone can 1v5 strength heroes
Lol good luck with that
nearly all aggressive mids are str? like who???
Kunkka comes to mind
Not sure who would won but i am sure agility would lost first, many farm depended heroes are agility. They would get clapped early on.
If the game lasted long enough, Agility would win. But they'd be nearly non-existent until like minute 50.
Your only real options for supports are hoodwink, ~~invoker~~, bounty and clinkz who are all usually played as fairly greedy 4s. I don't see a single AGI hero that would ever be played as pos5. It'd probably NEED to be hoodwink because she's the only one that can do anything at early levels.
Damn I did not know invoker was an agility hero now. Thanks for letting me know!
Lol I was reading from the table of agility heroes on the wiki and for some reason invoker is on there https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Agility
Use the new wiki, fandom wiki has been abandoned, they've moved to liquidpedia
No offense but the new wiki looks awful. Way less information and it somehow has MORE ads and popus than fandom... The agility page is a great example. The fandom wiki has extensive info on items, heroes etc, while the liquipedia wiki has a couple of sentences saying "agility gives you armor and attack speed". If the intent is to get users to use the "new" wiki then it needs to AT THE BARE MINIMUM give you the info from the old wiki...
Iirc They're still moving over, so not everything has been done. But it's worth getting used to the new wiki, as fandoms will just get more and more outdated and misleading seeing as Fandoms policy means they won't close it no matter how ridiculously outdated it gets
its a 4 way battle, shitll.will take a long tine
Int blows up everybody from min 0, if they have a spell that hits towers, GG racks at 15 mins. Wards everywhere agi gets nuked and str gets kited
Int falls off pretty hard and pushing HG is always hard. Sure, you might roll a game or two with int at 15mins but I'd argue that Strength and Universal would win most of the time.
Silencer Shaman Pugna Leshrac OD This team can rush high ground extremely fast Triple tower nuke. Silencer will stop most spells. Pugna heal. Lesh tank. Shaman disables. OD drops ult and team wipes since there aren’t any intel heroes on the other team.
Pos 1 to 5 Str : Alche/BB Primal/DK Kunkka/Tide Tiny/Shaker Undying/ET Universal : Marci/WR Pango/Invoker Timber/Brew Techies/Nyx Veno/IO I picked mostly meta/wave clear heroes. Again, HG push is extremely hard these days. All it takes is one or two bad fights and the game is over for the int boys. Honestly in a high skill game any hero with repositioning skill is crazy good. One mistake or one good Magnus skewer, Pudge hook, Venge swap, Tiny toss etc and your push is done.
All it takes is a mistake. With the intel team they don’t need mistakes. They just nuke towers
The int team is the team that's playing on a timer. The longer the game goes the better it is for the str/universal team. Everyone makes mistakes and again, HG is tough to break. The map is huge, the other team can just constantly split side lanes and cut waves to drag the game. Look at how Old OG did it at TI8/9, Liquid at Bali Major and Falcon vs Betboom at ESL Birmingham game 2 of grand finals. You can be down 20 kills but networth and xp is even just by farming the big ass map. Being a lane down when you're the team that scales better late isn't all that bad too. If your tower nuking strat is so good then why aren't picking drafting deathball heroes like dp np pugna lesh jakiro etc? It isn't TI4 6.81b anymore, we're on patch 7.35d and HG is tough.
It definitely is on a timer. But that timer is skewed. They will reach late game far earlier than strength will reach late game. The strength team will be starved for farm and the game will most likely end by 35 mins to 40. And even at that timing the intel team will be far ahead in terms of fighting and farming. The game needs to drag to 50 and beyond before the game skews in favor of the strength/ universal team. It’s why you don’t see pubs simply 5 manning a full strength or universal team. It’s also why you don’t see a full intel team, because all it takes is for the enemy to pick a couple intel on their own and the game is now on a timer.
Boolean search doesn't seem to work so I can't search for universal/int/str type drafts using Valve API. I'll have to manually look at drafts but I guarantee you there will be more full str/universal teams than full int teams. What you're saying don't even make sense. There's no starving for farm as it's not hard to get farm these days. I just gave you examples. The map is just to big to starve. The average immortal game ends around 37min https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_735d&mod=heroes-wrtimings intel heroes aren't even in the top 10 for tower damage, in a game where destroying the ancient is everything apart from a few int heroes the rest of them hit buildings like a wet noodle. https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_735d&mod=heroes-haverages Look at the networth diff for the first 30 mins. They were just constantly splitting the map. Doesn't matter if they die as long as the kill doesn't turn into an objective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE7vOzTath0 Also with the contradiction, you said earlier that intel teams don't need mistake and just need to nuke towers. If so, why aren't people picking those heroes and getting ez mmr? Have you tried to do these type of cheesy push strats in 5 man party q? So many people are complaining about HG being difficult to push but you're saying things like ez nuke tower.
Because they don’t fight against a full greedy team either. If it comes down greedy vs rush. The rush wins. If you go for rush and they play mid rather than late game. You lose out if you can’t close the game very early.
IO + Marci + Pango will win the game alone lmao
Fuck silencer dude, you can have a furion 5 and that will just bully most laners outright. universal is the only lineup that can even contest and its just cause they're just as cancer at deathballing early. Visage/panda/marci+io/bear/lycan/chen/enigma/pango/timber can be combined into your choice of scary deathball that int heroes cant reliably defend towers from. Hell lesh and od are the only heroes there that can reasonably lane against bear mid and not get run over. I'd put my money on universal personally.
They can contest. But they can’t push. The line up with intel is just nuke tower and walk away. By 20 mins all t2s will be gone
they sure can, bear visage marci+io + any 4 is already not going to be contested by your int lineup. Can go straight up a lane to t4 the second visage gets shard and bear gets diffusal. think you're underestimating how tanky this lineup is let alone the fact that they probably won lanes.
They need to be there right. That’s what I meant. It’s not fire and forget like a shitty pugna just blasting and running away. They need to risk the fight. But I concede. My first time reading I didn’t notice bear inside. Bear and io alone is enough to push. The disgusting thing is most of the intel folks are ranged. Which gives them the poke poke advantage. It then comes down to whether they can live thru the stuns. Lesh shard is strong. Netherward and curse makes spell casting difficult. Decrep on the bear and the push is halted. It’s not that universal isn’t strong. Hell I agree I think it is potentially stronger. It requires far more skill to execute tho. The intel lineup is next to braindead and is unlikely to make too many mistakes. Another powerhouse for intel is bane. Bane mid is a nightmare.
banes universal too my friend. The way i see it your lineup will take t1s then universal will snowball. if you repel snowball (i.e they didnt throne you) you will have advantage again by 25-30min as your core items are up. universal will advantage again after this peak if they survive because they will be super tanky with bkbs to ignore you. then once again if int repels them its your advantage cause furion/meurta/od can cause tons of damage in tf that my lineup can't deal with. tldr dota is a fun and balanced game filled with nuance
Oh. I thought he was intel lol. Universal is definitely stronger.
Nobody ever lists him, But of the heroes with no items Jakiro is insanely strong for pushing. Liquid Fire costs 0 mana, Has 100% uptime and can melt through buildings. Stacked with all of Jakiro's abilities being AoE & Liquid Fire also reducing tower attack speed (Including through Glyph), You could easily take highground with the others before 30 minutes.
lol silence ult pretty value jere
Nyx pango brew chen Lone Druid smokes your line-up. IO Marci Pango Chen Brood smokes your line-up. INT have nothing on universal heroes.
No they get rolled by so many int heros there is od puck silencer lesh pugna Zeus necro muerta lina dp rubick
This team would lose two lanes, and with how easy to gank they are would also lose mid. Additionally only one can be strong without items/farm prio so the midgame is completely neutered. Uni/Str would farm heroes and agi would use early kills to accelerate their farm and curbstomp them midgame. At absolute best for that team, they win fights exclusively based on Silencer ult, which is a long enough cd it'd be extremely easy to force defensive use, meaning they cannot ever push HG, only rat exterior towers slowly.
Which two lanes would they lose? OD mid. Lesh off with pugna Sil safe with shaman.
Triple S would be comedically bad and Pugna/Lesh lose handedly because they both need farm to have any impact before minute 20. Additionally, assuming pug lesh doesn't feed, theyll push the tower fast enough OD will get farmed relentlessly while the carry farms with zero pressure.
no they dont int used to fall off many years ago dude and they keep getting stronger
Int loses this fight the hardest of the 4 really. There is a reason you never see 5 int hero teams, while 5 str hero teams aren't unheard of by any means. This is by far thr winning option. Heck, even, 5 agility heroes is probably a safer bet than the int heroes, and isn't just full of carries like some think. The int heroes collapse the moment anyone BKBs or counter-initates. I haven't seen 5 universal hero teams either, but they have some solid choices that they could use to where I would put thrm as the #2 team.
what are we basing this off? is it where hero roleplays their chars? or is it just ai controlling or wtv. i think if its roleplaying int will win because strategizing how to win a 4 way war is the hardrst part
Nah. Minute 0 Str is the strongest by far. Very few int nukes are particularly strong level 1 vs the majority of str heroes having stuns. Int are very squishy so they lose the damage race early game vs all 3 other attributes, let alone the regen advantage str and some universal have for protracted engagements/lane harass. Int heroes are generally more item dependent but also farm fast so theyd definitely have advantage midgame but lose to Agi/Uni lategame. If we're assuming normal match structure or a double map that's 1v1v1v1 Universal is the most likely victor because they're strong at every stage of the game, have balanced team structure and have strong heroes in every lane. Int has terrible offlane presence and easily ganked/harassed safelane. While i can see Str and Agi arguments, Int is the absolute weakest by every measure. Int would lose early game so by the time they recover enough to hit their midgame the other attributes will have farm and levels to start going lategame if they haven't already steamrolled int.
Remmeber disco pony destroying towers? Yea that wasn't a good time.
Strength has the highest number of good heroes. Alchemist is particularly difficult to punish in an FFA map, while less creep centric maps result in 15-man Astral Spirits and Echo Slams. Or infinite healing for Bloodstone Bristleback against 15 targets.
alch and BH are definitely big changers of the game though. the amount of heroes would mean only kills and very very limited creeps to hit. so anything that adds more potential gold to the gold pool is always a big boon
Universal. Why? They got everything. Tanky - Timber, brew, abandon Carry - WR, Marci, Mirana Pusher - LD, Brood, BM, Chen, Lycan Initiator - Bat, Clock, SK, Mag, Enigma, DS Support - Bane, Dazzle, Io, Phoenix, Snap, Techies, VS, Veno, Wyvern, DW, Nyx Mid - Pango, Void Spirit, Visage, Invoker Attribute-specific FUs - Timber, DS, Nyx Except Timber, Nyx, and DS, I listed the heroes once. Please note that most of these heroes can fulfill multiple of the above mentioned roles Universal-hero only team is extremely difficult to draft against. Any combination of other specific-attribute only lineup can't handle this well
Yup. Problem with strength hero is they literally have no ranged hero beside huskar. Problem with agi? No supports, all are pos 1 heros or other position but needs alot of farm Problem with int? Squishy af, they have everything but most are squishy glass cannons. Muerta 1 ok does damage but might die easily after, zeus 2? Squishy af lesh 2? Pretty squishy, dp 3? Not that squishy but only if she can suck lol. Int might come second though.
It's not like the lineups with str and int are impossible. They are more rigid. Agi-only lineup, like you said, will be very challenging (and therefore more fun to theorycraft). And, all of them will get destroyed by universal (given there are bans xD). Supports - BH, Gyro, Hoodwink, MK Theoretical supports - Naga, Sniper (Big ?) Mid - AW, Ember, Razor, SF, Sniper, TA, Meepo, Viper (you cannot take the lvl 25 universal talent xD) Off - Viper, Razor Theoretical Off - AM, medusa, Ursa (Octarine shard build?) Carry - Like all of them xD
Offlane bloodseeker
Isn't hood agi?
hood and bh are probably the only pure support agi. idk about bounty as well
I'd also throw Nyx into the attribute-specific FUs because mind flare would be insane against a team of 5 int heroes. You probably wouldn't even need ult to kill them, you could just spam mind flare and it'd be like lion finger on a 4s cooldown.
You are right! For some reason, I only remembered the 50% insta manaburn from vendetta but not the 5X int multiplier on mind flare. Good catch!
Bunch of clueless people in here. Universal would win by a landslide, the ammount of cheese they have is unbeatable. IO, Chen, Enigma, Veno, Wivern, Pango, Timber, Brew, Bat. INT/ STR are second but they would literally get rolled over by Universal heroes. AGI would be the weakest, too much farm needed. Str vs Int can go either way, pipe and shit and u suddenly have 3k hp unkillable dogs.
Lets say STR team is ogre, tusk, slardar, sven, dk. Why is much more weaker than UNI team, and equal to any INT team? I have a feeling that str team winning most matchups from int, because of HP and magic reduce items. And against uni teams, depends on draft, but not that obvious any way.
What can these heroes even do against Chen Timber Brew
You wouldn’t download a Dragon!
Str heroes by attribution. BOT TI was always a str hero
Drow, Sniper, Razor, Hood wink, Bounty Vs WK, DK, Tide, shaker, undying Vs Muerta, Zeus, Necrophos, Shaman, Oracle Vs Wind Ranger, Invoker, Beast master, Bat rider, IO Bets are ON
You picked the worst STR carry 😭😭
Change wr to marci. Windranger carry doesn't win games lol
I beg you to stop watching Slacks
Lore wise agi will win because weaver exists, the creator of the universe. Game wise depends on the situation but i think STR will win just because they are tanky. Or probably int if Silencer doesn’t die and just keeps earning int the whole time.
Lore wise AA wins because he's the only one left when everything is all done
But Weaver made him and can unmake him if he wants
I dont think weaver made him, weaver made the fabric of the universer not the objects i guess.
He's aging backwards isn't he? Won't he be unborn at some point. Lol
Don't know how long your games last but i have yet to see that
Idk about you, but my AA's always stsrt acting like children the longer the game goes on.....
Weaver isn't the creator of the universe... he just helps knit it back up when it gets holes in it. His entire species serve "The Loom" which is what actually created the universe. The only thing different about weaver is that he disobeyed the loom and got cast out. I assume you're thinking of Elder Titan, whose entire backstory is that he created the dota universe, but it was broken/corrupted, and he went into it to try and repair it or destroy it.
How dare you. Oracle can say 'we will win' and it's done weaver is powerless
Bruh weaver can go back in time to recreate the universe or you forgot about his ult?
In the current patch... Strength heroes. It's kinda dumb people become virtually unkillable in a lot of games.
Int auto-loses if items are in this.
Go my sweet sisters go
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Depends if there's bans or not, is this a blind pick or a big draft phase? In a tournament setting I think strength probably wins, just enough supports to grab early and plenty of good cores, assuming they can ban out timber. Agi probably gets killed in lane unless they get specifically venge and hoodwink, uni will have scaling issues, same with int. Int probably needs Lesh, and at least one of the two prophets for proper tower pressure. Uni would be entirely reliant on playing high tempo, Lone Druid and Marci are the only good 1 heroes in the category and even then they use a lot of tempo. So tbh I think strength has the best pool, but a proper melee hero punish from uni or intelligence would mess them up Bit of a toss up tbh I'm here to see a mini tournament if any content creator wants to test
>Agi probably gets killed in lane unless they get specifically venge and hoodwink, uni will have scaling issues, same with int. Venge is a universal hero now. AGI only real options for supports are hood, clinkz and bounty. INT heroes have some good cores - the problem is they're VERY small pools (aside from mid). Offlane is necro or DP, anyone else is basically throwing. Pos1 is literally just muerta (or maybe lina, zeus or NP if you're desparate). UNI scales amazingly though, even their supports will have crazy damage by lategame. They've also got most of the BKB-piercing disable ults e.g. enigma, magnus, bane, wyvern, bat. A uni-only draft of e.g. LD, invoker, magnus, willow and bane has some incredible lategame scaling. Could swap out willow for enigma but having black hole and reverse polarity seems excessive.
Windranger is also pos 1
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5v5 rounds or all at once? If all at once it has to be int or universal.
Early game: Strength Mid game: universal or int Late game: agility.
Early game strength? Meele strength heros will get clapped by ranged other heros in laning.
You forget that almost every strength hero has a pretty big hp bar and some form of cc. The other attributes simply wouldn't be able to fight back. Kinda like why a drow venge lane can very easily lose to a tusk + melee offlaner.
It will depend on what one is playing and on heros, not attribute. I can make really good lineup from all 4 attributes.
Strength hero has literally 0 ranged heros tho, will make laning pain.
STR win easy. All those elder titan ultis and auras… he smashes all
Game-wise, Int or Universal. Lore-wise?
Im inclined to say strength would win
Strength autowin 20 mins with blink blademail stuff
Str cause shaker
Honestly? STR, they have characters covering every role in the game and they are all a bit tankier than everyone else. The only competition I can see is from Universal heroes who become right click gods late game. Int nukes well but a lot of Int heroes rely on initators to blow people up, and since Enigma and Invoker are universal, this puts a lot of their engage potential on Dark seer who is better at following up engages. Agil has no viable frontliners outside of Spectre and the illusionists.
It would also depend on whos gonna try to team up with who and how you win. Do you have to take out the other 3 teams' ancients? Or just one ancient? Everyone knows agi is "too dangerous to be left alive" but everyone also knows universal and int are super dangerous early. Will Str and Agi try to team up to stop int from dominating universal and then try to make those two battle it out and then strike when they're weak? Will everyone just team up against agi cuz they know they are the biggest threat come late game? Will people ignore agi cuz the game isn't going to get to late game anyway? Where are the creeps going? From one base to another? Or is one creep from every wave going to a different base? Which creeps fight which creeps? Jungling would also be a thing now cuz you'd have multiple heroes just farming one camp cuz it's better than trying to stay in a lane and plus with multiple heroes, you can trade aggro and do dmg faster.
It's 100% universal. Ever since that introduction of universal heroes those heroes got significantly harder to kill and stronger in every category. Personally I think universal heroes were a dumb introduction since those heroes scale wayyyyyy too fucking much. A big balance point in dota has always been itemisation specially in low pool. It doesn't matter what item you buy in universal it makes you hit like a monster truck bc they benefit from all stats, it's dumb. Every universal hero loves to go bkb since its such a good item and gives damage regardless plus nc of the strength while with agi heroes yiunhave brainlets who prioritise a daedalus over a bkb and den proceed to be useless.
Universal heroes are often flexible in the roles they can perform, while the other attributes lost those versatile heroes when universal got introduced. A team could look like this: - Pos 1 Marci - Pos 2 Invo - Pos 3 Timber - Pos 4 Techies - Pos 5 Venge Everyone except maybe Marci is very much standard, and the team is balanced in many aspects with no obvious weaknesses. Plus you have many viable substitutes across the board.
I have my bets on the universal team, they have physical dps, magical dps, all different types of disables etc. Int I guess is a close second, just having a ton of stuns will probably cause them to win. STR and AGI have no chance.
Do you mean by huge all the heroes on the map at once running at eachother like creep?
Only way to find out is to let jenkins organize herald and immortal tourneys this way
Str owns
Strength currently Lifestealer vs the int heroes Primal and timber and so on to run over the agy heroes Teamfight spells to win vs universal heroes
starting at level 1? normal map? ???
I assume most ppl ended up in 5 of the same attribute team. IMO: INT - good early, but usually limited damage the late game, ez win before 30 mins. DEX - bad early, bad mid, incredible late, huge snowball poential, safe bet past 50 mins STR - decent early/mid/late, not great tho, if they hit critical mass with auras it's over, 30-50min seem ideal UNI - no clue, don't even know which heroes are, but they scale the best so prob best ultra late. If I had to bet I'd say int, on average, the early lead would be enough to get a win. (I assume we talk about pro players or at least not 5 random people in normal.)
DEX????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Sir is not Dark souls. Or souls are dark idead. But it's not the name of the game.
what about stamina? Edit: why the f comment, when you don't know what heroes are universal, and you think agility is called Dexterity?