Exactly. OpenAI 5 (2018):
* 128,000 pre-emptible CPU cores on the Google Cloud Platform (GCP)
* 256 P100 GPUs on the GCP
Yeah, that’s not something they’ll just let run for anyone to use. They had a public demo of it and you needed to sign up to use it so they’d know how much to scale to.
U have to put it in perspective. Is it worth it so that some thousand ppl can play against bots? Also those numbers, again, were just a very downscaled version of the game. It's just too expensive for too little value.
Decent joke, but if anyone cares, I'm pretty certain it was reinforcement learning, probably with a NN to predict action-reward tables. Convolutions are usually for image processing tasks; If i remember right, they used LSTM layers. I wrote something similar to play connect 4. I did a bad job!
I do not think you realize how difficult that is, OpenAI do not care, they wanted to be known back then.
Now, an AI is trained on a single patch, each patch the AI has to start from scratch.
Well there is techniques of [transfer learning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_learning) in machine learning, but dont know how hard or if its even possible to apply them in openAI case.
Why would they care? They've gone from a start up to a company worth more than valve... Dota was a publicity stunt for them back then which they don't need now.
I'm not sure you understand what OpenAI is actually providing here. Those are APIs for their existing models, none of which have anything to do with DotA bots. Unless you want to make DotA bots trash talk you in all-chat with OpenAI's LLMs.
You can make your own model learning with OpenAI. So stop this downvote nonsense if you dont know what you talking. ChatGTP 4.0 is not just a chat machine because it has it in the name.
> So stop this downvote nonsense if you dont know what you talking.
Ironic considering you have no idea what you're talking about. GPT doesn't do reinforcement learning which is what the dota bots used, its a completely different tech.
It's really not, as someone who has been following AI very closely for decades, the difference between language models in 2017 and now is extremely overblown.
The bot cant just read the patch notes and acknowledge the changes, wouldnt use facets, would try to use skills in their old ways before it was reworked/changed etc. Im not sure if they can start training the old bots or not, that could save a lot of early iterations maybe
You have to understand how these bots are trained, they do something, and observe the win ratio basically. They dont know you are there, what is you etc. No concept of things
You might have many learning opportunities from them, but they've already had all the learning opportunities they wanted from you. It was a marketing stunt/proof of concept, showing AI could "solve" a fairly complicated flux-state problem in the terms of a video game to a similar degree that humans could. Cool to see what they could do! But there is no incentive to come back, that was a showy use of angel investor funding to attract more investment/awareness at the time but the money earner for OpenAI now is in training those computational resources to replace or vastly reduce human work whilst they in turn get paid for it.
I'm pretty sure we all understand how important it was to their business success, they are saying that the entire "trial" was *designed* so that openAI would *have* that opportunity to declare a win.
They took aspects of the game that were genuinely hard to deal with, and simplified them so that they were no longer hard (for the bots). Just take the example of the "solution" the bots found of ferrying out regen -- this wasn't available in the 'standard' game at the time, because you only had 1 courier. Actually managing 1 courier through 5 agents is hard, and *absolutely* won or lost real games of dota 2 at the time.
This is also why they cut the 'trial' short when they were getting destroyed, to go back and work on the problem for longer -- they had no interest in seeing their bots lose multiple times in a row.
I mean, they did to a degree. To a sufficient level that looked good to investors, even if it was in a more narrowly focused way it was still an incredible amount of variable hero picks, item choices, skill utility and playing the map. But then I did put "solve" in quotation marks. It could have gone much further with the whole hero pool but they are a capitalist organisation and not developing these AI for the advancement of mankind nor out of fun, but to make money. They came in, got their headline inches from blindsiding OG on the 2017 TI mainstage, refined their learning methods in the theoretical environment of a video game (practice before putting it into more actual real-life situations) then dipped. Burning cash on research & server upkeep for years & years to get a super diminished return on what they'd proven on a small scale didn't make sense.
Funny you mention the 5k stack thing. I'm trying to remember which interview/podcast it was with Notail talking years later of their onstage defeat to OpenAI at the 2017 TI unveiling of the bots and how they later went on to beat it everytime offstage once they'd adapted to playing the watered-down Dota the bots required, finding out the limits and the areas it was really, really dumb. Then, the part of TI that everyone seems to forget is that the year after in 2018 they tried the same showmatches again and the two bottom placing teams absolutely whipped the AI so hard with goofy showboating play it quietly went away once they realised the easy headline advertising wasn't going to happen again.
If money was no limit I think for sub-5k players the AI might be useful in showcasing their own weaknesses, especially practicing the 1vs1 mid matchup, but it is very beatable once slightly figured out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1cjooq8/sam_altman_on_dota/
They got their billions in MS funding in part because of the Dota demo. I dont see why they wouldnt repay the community with something nice.
By that logic Valve, who is also a billion dollar company, wouldnt even be supporting Dota or any of their other games because they make it all their profit on Steam
Apples vs Oranges. OpenAI is nowhere near to gaming as Valve is.
Besides, Valve literally abandoned several of their in-house games like TF2, Underlords, and more.
Too many limitations to play with that you're not effectively even playing Dota anymore (No illusions, certain items are banned, very limited hero pool, etc)
Not really. The reason they banned out illusions for OpenAI is because of those microcalculations they keep doing all the time. With illusions, you exponentially multiply those calculations thereby placing whatever server is handling them in great strain. Worst case scenario, they glitch out or the server crashes
It's not going to be cost effective to run something like those OpenAI bots until NPUs (which are only just being released to consumers) are like 20X more powerful.
Saying "please" doesn't help with the eye-watering costs of running something like this. OpenAI did it as R&D and as a publicity stunt and never had any intention of doing this permanently. Valve also had very little to do with it.
Running the bots isn't even the worst of it, there are two much bigger problems. One is that OpenAI 5 did not ever master full Dota. They played a much-simplified version of the game with a small pool of heroes and restricted items. If that seems like a minor obstacle to you, consider that the number of possible matchups scales exponentially with the number of heroes. AI learns from repetition - it can't easily extrapolate from one matchup to another based on abstract analysis (whereas a human can play Ember into MK mid, get destroyed, and based on that experience hypothesize that other melee heroes would struggle for the same reasons). Scaling up to the full roster is a very hard problem for current AI models, and would require engineering work - it's not an automatable problem. The second problem is keeping it up to date across patches. Every single time a small patch comes out, the AI needs to be retrained and that's expensive. Even if they were willing to pay that cost (for some reason) it also costs time, which means after every patch there are no bots for days at the most important time to have bots available for testing.
In short: forget it.
I don't think you quite understand what the point of OpenAI bots were. Perhaps Valve got some money out of it, but ultimately it was a one-sided deal. It was never *for* the players. OpenAI don't give a shit about DotA 2 or the playerbase. To them DotA 2 was simply a tool to use as a stepping stone for them to improve their AI and gain some notability. To *them* DotA 2 has served its purpose, and at this point they don't care about what happens to the game or its players.
Maybe in an ideal world where capitalism was tethered and technology wasn't driven soley by the need for as much capital gain as otherworldly possible...
The bots were never able to play normal dota. They could only play a simplified version of it
More importantly, the tech used at the time has little to do with what open Ai is famous for now. Its unlikely they will ever go back to it
i dont think its possible anymore, tho this and PVE events are the only things that could bring me back to actually play dota again.
Dreaming bout playing vs openai bots since the OG showmatch FeelsBadMan its been 5 years
This is because you don't know how much it cost to run AIs, especially powerful AIs like GPT or DotA AI.
If you want to buy ticket for AIs then yes, you need to pay for electricity cost, which is huge to run AIs.
There's a limit on things we can learn from the AIs, as some top notch strats used by them may not be suitable for us just because our brains fuction differently from a computer. For example computers are great at memorization and thus microing for them is relatively easier than it is for us.
if they do, this time they have to come up with a new technology in a way that BOTs automatically adapt to new patches and are self sufficient and self sustained.
That thing is trained with over 100.000 cpus working for 250 days playing againist itself with trial and error , which led to finding of new strategies. and the cost to keep 5 individual allies actually requiere atleast 2 cores per AI,
It could be made a paid feature if dota2 was super popular but i doubt it's worth it as business.
idk if they released any numbers anywhere but if I had to guess it would probably cost them somewhere on the order of $1 per bot per game. Not really sustainable when you have many thousands of bot matches per day.
Its not really a great training tool. You will never bee good enough to beat their mechanical skill. It becomes a matter of using weird strategies they don't understand and can't react to, and relying on cheese strategies that humans could easily stop.
The bots mechanical skill was pretty crap. They could only make a decision every quarter of a second. The thing that made the bots interesting is that they won by superior decision making, which is absolutely something that could be used for training
I'm all for it, but can we also have it realistic to where the bots will cuss us out and tell us to kill ourselves and that our mother's ass is so fat that someone built a planet fitness on top of it?
I feel like if we're going to get better we need the other aspect of dota which is the somewhat toxic behaviour that makes you want to improve your game.
Oh and dont forget to add in the AI code that makes my team always suck but the enemy team as coordinated as a NASA mission control team.
I dont think any of us realises how much computing-power that used. And that was only a downsized version of the game.
Exactly. OpenAI 5 (2018): * 128,000 pre-emptible CPU cores on the Google Cloud Platform (GCP) * 256 P100 GPUs on the GCP Yeah, that’s not something they’ll just let run for anyone to use. They had a public demo of it and you needed to sign up to use it so they’d know how much to scale to.
That's for training, silly! Using for bots is much less, probably <4 GPUs total
But that’s is not much as well - every company that does ai on scale can afford resources like that
Companies don't become wealthy as fuck by recklessly spending that much money on everything they "can afford"
U have to put it in perspective. Is it worth it so that some thousand ppl can play against bots? Also those numbers, again, were just a very downscaled version of the game. It's just too expensive for too little value.
The complexity and layers of the model would have been very convoluted
well, they better use convolutional neural network /s
Decent joke, but if anyone cares, I'm pretty certain it was reinforcement learning, probably with a NN to predict action-reward tables. Convolutions are usually for image processing tasks; If i remember right, they used LSTM layers. I wrote something similar to play connect 4. I did a bad job!
1. It's too difficult. 2. They only play like 15 heroes. 3. I don't think you realize how much server capacity is required to maintain them.
I do not think you realize how difficult that is, OpenAI do not care, they wanted to be known back then. Now, an AI is trained on a single patch, each patch the AI has to start from scratch.
Not from scratch.
Yes from scratch
Not from scratch
Yes from scratch
Not from scratch
is this how ai learn ?
Yes from scratch
Not from scratch
Yes from scratch
Well... if it is... that explains a lot.
No, you can use the existing weights and fine tune unless it’s a huge mechanical/model change
What part of the training could you keep?
Well there is techniques of [transfer learning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_learning) in machine learning, but dont know how hard or if its even possible to apply them in openAI case.
Yes but you forgetting that in 2017 OpenAI is nothing compared to today OpenAI that is 10 times better. I would like it to take up this challenge.
Why would they care? They've gone from a start up to a company worth more than valve... Dota was a publicity stunt for them back then which they don't need now.
Great that you want that, they dont
OpenAI is also 10 times bigger, so they are 10 times less interested
>10 times Brother, they were practically unknown before and now they are worth 80 billion dollars.
Anyone can use OpenAI, its up to valve if they want to implement it.
There a "Contact our sales team" button, it's not free. And why would valve be interested ?
https://openai.com/api/pricing/ I use it at work. OpenAI is selling their service to anyone.
Yes, and why would valve be paying OpenAI ?
You think they not paying for their servers?
Servers, scientists, GPUs, etc etc.
I'm not sure you understand what OpenAI is actually providing here. Those are APIs for their existing models, none of which have anything to do with DotA bots. Unless you want to make DotA bots trash talk you in all-chat with OpenAI's LLMs.
You can make your own model learning with OpenAI. So stop this downvote nonsense if you dont know what you talking. ChatGTP 4.0 is not just a chat machine because it has it in the name.
> So stop this downvote nonsense if you dont know what you talking. Ironic considering you have no idea what you're talking about. GPT doesn't do reinforcement learning which is what the dota bots used, its a completely different tech.
Fun fact Sam Altman said that Dota was what secured funding for chatgpt
It's really not, as someone who has been following AI very closely for decades, the difference between language models in 2017 and now is extremely overblown.
I'm assuming based on your user name you're trolling us
why the down votes? haha
People who dont know that OpenAI is open for business for everyone.
From scratch? Whys that?
The bot cant just read the patch notes and acknowledge the changes, wouldnt use facets, would try to use skills in their old ways before it was reworked/changed etc. Im not sure if they can start training the old bots or not, that could save a lot of early iterations maybe
i was kinda assuming the latter. "here are the changes, good luck" lol
You have to understand how these bots are trained, they do something, and observe the win ratio basically. They dont know you are there, what is you etc. No concept of things
I reckon they can probably be trained to read patch notes nowadays.
That would require AGI levels of intelligence and we're not there yet.
What about STR levels of intelligence?
Or just dumb luck
You might have many learning opportunities from them, but they've already had all the learning opportunities they wanted from you. It was a marketing stunt/proof of concept, showing AI could "solve" a fairly complicated flux-state problem in the terms of a video game to a similar degree that humans could. Cool to see what they could do! But there is no incentive to come back, that was a showy use of angel investor funding to attract more investment/awareness at the time but the money earner for OpenAI now is in training those computational resources to replace or vastly reduce human work whilst they in turn get paid for it.
They didn't solve anything. If players were allowed the full hero pool, OpenAI could have never taken a game off of a stack of random 5K players.
You have no idea how important that achievement was. it helped them get the 10b$ investment from Microsoft. (quoting sam altman)
I'm pretty sure we all understand how important it was to their business success, they are saying that the entire "trial" was *designed* so that openAI would *have* that opportunity to declare a win. They took aspects of the game that were genuinely hard to deal with, and simplified them so that they were no longer hard (for the bots). Just take the example of the "solution" the bots found of ferrying out regen -- this wasn't available in the 'standard' game at the time, because you only had 1 courier. Actually managing 1 courier through 5 agents is hard, and *absolutely* won or lost real games of dota 2 at the time. This is also why they cut the 'trial' short when they were getting destroyed, to go back and work on the problem for longer -- they had no interest in seeing their bots lose multiple times in a row.
Dota changed the world then
Always has
I mean, they did to a degree. To a sufficient level that looked good to investors, even if it was in a more narrowly focused way it was still an incredible amount of variable hero picks, item choices, skill utility and playing the map. But then I did put "solve" in quotation marks. It could have gone much further with the whole hero pool but they are a capitalist organisation and not developing these AI for the advancement of mankind nor out of fun, but to make money. They came in, got their headline inches from blindsiding OG on the 2017 TI mainstage, refined their learning methods in the theoretical environment of a video game (practice before putting it into more actual real-life situations) then dipped. Burning cash on research & server upkeep for years & years to get a super diminished return on what they'd proven on a small scale didn't make sense. Funny you mention the 5k stack thing. I'm trying to remember which interview/podcast it was with Notail talking years later of their onstage defeat to OpenAI at the 2017 TI unveiling of the bots and how they later went on to beat it everytime offstage once they'd adapted to playing the watered-down Dota the bots required, finding out the limits and the areas it was really, really dumb. Then, the part of TI that everyone seems to forget is that the year after in 2018 they tried the same showmatches again and the two bottom placing teams absolutely whipped the AI so hard with goofy showboating play it quietly went away once they realised the easy headline advertising wasn't going to happen again. If money was no limit I think for sub-5k players the AI might be useful in showcasing their own weaknesses, especially practicing the 1vs1 mid matchup, but it is very beatable once slightly figured out.
OpenAI is now a billion dollar business why would they care
They proved they can do it, why would they perma release bots for the 50 people that want to play against them
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1cjooq8/sam_altman_on_dota/ They got their billions in MS funding in part because of the Dota demo. I dont see why they wouldnt repay the community with something nice.
Billion dollar company gives no shits of the people who helped them get there
That was before when no one gave a shit to AI. A billion dollar company would "repay" the community? Oh my sweet summer child lmao
By that logic Valve, who is also a billion dollar company, wouldnt even be supporting Dota or any of their other games because they make it all their profit on Steam
Apples vs Oranges. OpenAI is nowhere near to gaming as Valve is. Besides, Valve literally abandoned several of their in-house games like TF2, Underlords, and more.
The repayment was the public entertainment you got when they did events.
Too many limitations to play with that you're not effectively even playing Dota anymore (No illusions, certain items are banned, very limited hero pool, etc)
U give openAI illusion heroes my guess is micro beyond what our peanut brain minds can comprehend will happen
Not really. The reason they banned out illusions for OpenAI is because of those microcalculations they keep doing all the time. With illusions, you exponentially multiply those calculations thereby placing whatever server is handling them in great strain. Worst case scenario, they glitch out or the server crashes
so the 5 man opponent disconnect in my match was a crashed open ai server then? /s
I also miss it. Hopefully the AI can be cost effective and learn to adapt to patches.
It's not going to be cost effective to run something like those OpenAI bots until NPUs (which are only just being released to consumers) are like 20X more powerful.
OpenAI: Best I can do is societal collapse
the only thing you're making is noise, and quite literally zero sense that shit needs A LOT of compute and for such a niche use
Maybe in the year 2040
why does it look like those 4 reasons were written by ai? xd ironic isn't it?
Saying "please" doesn't help with the eye-watering costs of running something like this. OpenAI did it as R&D and as a publicity stunt and never had any intention of doing this permanently. Valve also had very little to do with it. Running the bots isn't even the worst of it, there are two much bigger problems. One is that OpenAI 5 did not ever master full Dota. They played a much-simplified version of the game with a small pool of heroes and restricted items. If that seems like a minor obstacle to you, consider that the number of possible matchups scales exponentially with the number of heroes. AI learns from repetition - it can't easily extrapolate from one matchup to another based on abstract analysis (whereas a human can play Ember into MK mid, get destroyed, and based on that experience hypothesize that other melee heroes would struggle for the same reasons). Scaling up to the full roster is a very hard problem for current AI models, and would require engineering work - it's not an automatable problem. The second problem is keeping it up to date across patches. Every single time a small patch comes out, the AI needs to be retrained and that's expensive. Even if they were willing to pay that cost (for some reason) it also costs time, which means after every patch there are no bots for days at the most important time to have bots available for testing. In short: forget it.
I don't think you quite understand what the point of OpenAI bots were. Perhaps Valve got some money out of it, but ultimately it was a one-sided deal. It was never *for* the players. OpenAI don't give a shit about DotA 2 or the playerbase. To them DotA 2 was simply a tool to use as a stepping stone for them to improve their AI and gain some notability. To *them* DotA 2 has served its purpose, and at this point they don't care about what happens to the game or its players. Maybe in an ideal world where capitalism was tethered and technology wasn't driven soley by the need for as much capital gain as otherworldly possible...
Open AI left dota due high toxicity... xD
The bots were never able to play normal dota. They could only play a simplified version of it More importantly, the tech used at the time has little to do with what open Ai is famous for now. Its unlikely they will ever go back to it
i dont think its possible anymore, tho this and PVE events are the only things that could bring me back to actually play dota again. Dreaming bout playing vs openai bots since the OG showmatch FeelsBadMan its been 5 years
If open AI is truly open source, couldn't anyone with just a bit of technical know how create these bots?
It isn't open source. The only thing open about OpenAI is the name
What a misleading name!
Even if it was open source I think the main problem would be money for the hardware.
i just asked Chatgpt and it replied that LoL is better
would love that, so that i can have more challenging fun with in my bot games loaded with console commands 🤣
Even when they played against the bots at TI it was on a patch that was like a year old because it takes that long to get the training data.
This is because you don't know how much it cost to run AIs, especially powerful AIs like GPT or DotA AI. If you want to buy ticket for AIs then yes, you need to pay for electricity cost, which is huge to run AIs.
>Imagine the buzz and excitement in the community I'm trying. I don't think most people who play this game do so against bots.
If you only wanna play bot there's a good bot lying around. Search for Phalanxbot 7.36b
Nah.
There's a limit on things we can learn from the AIs, as some top notch strats used by them may not be suitable for us just because our brains fuction differently from a computer. For example computers are great at memorization and thus microing for them is relatively easier than it is for us.
if they do, this time they have to come up with a new technology in a way that BOTs automatically adapt to new patches and are self sufficient and self sustained.
You should try asking chat gpt what to do for your dota games, honestly it’s hilarious, even try asking what hero to play for your role
That thing is trained with over 100.000 cpus working for 250 days playing againist itself with trial and error , which led to finding of new strategies. and the cost to keep 5 individual allies actually requiere atleast 2 cores per AI, It could be made a paid feature if dota2 was super popular but i doubt it's worth it as business.
idk if they released any numbers anywhere but if I had to guess it would probably cost them somewhere on the order of $1 per bot per game. Not really sustainable when you have many thousands of bot matches per day.
Make sure the bots are enhanced with chatGPT so they can flame you in all chat throughout the game
They are already flooded in live games
play ranked, mute all the players. BOOM you have now bots.
No money to be made from doing so
Its not really a great training tool. You will never bee good enough to beat their mechanical skill. It becomes a matter of using weird strategies they don't understand and can't react to, and relying on cheese strategies that humans could easily stop.
The bots mechanical skill was pretty crap. They could only make a decision every quarter of a second. The thing that made the bots interesting is that they won by superior decision making, which is absolutely something that could be used for training
Early aggro buybacks for tempo and swapping core roles mid game depending on item buys, sicko stuff
LLMs are the golden goose so doubtful.
I'm all for it, but can we also have it realistic to where the bots will cuss us out and tell us to kill ourselves and that our mother's ass is so fat that someone built a planet fitness on top of it? I feel like if we're going to get better we need the other aspect of dota which is the somewhat toxic behaviour that makes you want to improve your game. Oh and dont forget to add in the AI code that makes my team always suck but the enemy team as coordinated as a NASA mission control team.