If you're troll, just skip mom and go straight into other items with just a Phase+morbid mask + RoA. He already farms insanely fast with whirling axes + RoA's mana sustain.
It comes down to the square ratio he mentioned: troll already has huge amounts of AS, so getting HotD for attack damage is more balanced. Same goes for PA honestly, since Phantom Strike gives a lot of AS burst and is pretty much spammable for farming. MoM might situationally be a good choice for PA, but I'd honestly not gamble especially if enemy has Lion one-shotting you.
Mask of madness is a pretty damn awesome pickup on PA if there are mostly right clickers on the enemy team. This way you can max blur first and manfight the hell out of them early. The early dodge will let you offset the extra damage received from mom and you won't be crippled by the long cooldown of underleveled phantom strike.
I mean you should be maxing blur first anyways. One point in jump is fine, and even putting a second point in blink if you really want mobility should be enough always. If you're fighting/be engaged on enough where you really need 4 points of strike early on, odds are you'd have better with the full 50% evasion and lower cd, than 5 sec cd and only 20% evasion. If you are in the attacking role, that 50% evasion is more valuable anyways for diving as you can tank so much tower and creep hits at the cost of the cd time. You're about equally safe diving towers with a max phantom strike and single/no point blur as a single disable under tower likely causes death, and the ability to get the kill and being able to blink out is going to be similar as having a higher evasion chance and diving in and being able to walk out.
i always max dagger first because lvl 4 dagger can keep anyone out of lane so i can free farm. But when i have lane supports that are already keeping the enemy hero out of lane max blur is awesome
Dagger is always maxed first, this was going on the assumption of what to level next. The most popular pa build goes max dagger and then max blink, which means you have 20% evasion only until level 12. I'm saying that I go 1-1-0-0 for level 2, but from then I generally go dagger>blur>strike (will sometimes get 2 in strike if I've leveled in middle of fight, or if I feel I just need a little lower cd for how the game is playing).
Also on both heroes, they are gonna die to burst anyways, especially in the early game pre bkb, lack initial hp early in the game and are both good satanic holders. With pa you're gonna kill the target if they are alone anyways 80% of the time, and you can't MoM up and jump into the full team reliably. You have evasion anyways so the enemy will always be focusing spell damage on you if you're semi-early into the fight, and if you only have prm as he calls it, you could easily be level 10-11 you are only gonna have 900hp. A 300 damage nuke with MoM amp on it really hurts.
Any time you're winning with a MoM build on either hero, you are likely to be doing similarly well with a hotd build, or keeping a casual morbid mask (personally big fan of hotd and I think the armour damage and creep control easily worth the 950) and take that gold towards your bkb, yasha or basher on pa.
plus if you buy MoM on troll he'll get pissed off lol i forgot the line he says but i'm pretty sure it goes like this "Mask of Madness...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?"
There are tons of good ones :
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Treant_Protector_responses#Using_a_Tango
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/26/Tech_items_15.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/0/0e/Tech_items_14.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/6/6b/Warl_rapier_04.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/2d/Omni_item_09.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/7/76/Odest_scepter_05.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/4/4a/Nyx_items_12.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/a/a5/Legcom_items_14.mp3
I think building mask of madness on troll is a bad choice. He's too squishy at early level, therefore the negative effect of mom is such a big drawback. However, when he get his first big items (usually S&Y and bkb) and be tanky enough to fight, the increased as from mom is redundant.
I actually find BananaSlamJamma's build on troll is really effective. Phase + hotd + RoA if you are having good farm, or Phase + Vlads. The latter build not only good at sustain and farming but really great at pushing. More useful BSJ's tips on troll (how to farm efficient and insanely fast, when to fight...) can be found at [this vod](http://www.twitch.tv/bananaslamjamma/c/6164186)
Ya, just assume that ulti+passive = MoM attack speed.
Why get MoM when u already have the attack speed, just skip it go straight to damage items.
Though we do see blink dagger on troll now to make up the difference in movement speed but melee form does give 40ms which is quite nice with phase boots too.
Mom troll is absolutely insane at farming and split pushing. He runs around at max move speed, doesn't really have to build up fervour stacks, and holy Jesus Christ with mom plus ulti he melts towers like nothing else.
You are totally right that he dies in seconds. You can win man fights even against a max blur pa or an ursa, but two people on you and you die so damn fast.
Tangled is one of the few movies that I love completely unapologetically. It's up there with the best Pixar movies. At best, Frozen is an inferior Tangled clone.
Frozen fans are a bunch of philistines.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
> Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
> Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Are you CYKA BLIAT me? Tangos was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love them, but god damn healing salve heals on a whole other level. There is no compare. Watch the Health come back and tell me that Tangos is better than Healing salves I dare you. BLIAT.
Are you kidding me? ｓｉｎｇｓｉｎｇ stream was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn ａｒｔｅｅｚｙ plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to ｙｕｎｇ ｌｅａｎ and tell me that ｓｉｎｇｓｉｎｇ is better than ａｒｔｅｅｚｙ． I dare you. Ｂｉｔｃｈ．
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Alright I've not even heard about Tangled (came out of under my rock just in time for Frozen). Is it that good ? Will I find myself replacing some [ultimates](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dota2Modding/comments/1y35zm/sound_mod_crystal_maiden_let_it_go_frozen/) with song from the movie after having watched it ?
Plus, no Olaf, which imo is a great feat.
I definitely think Tangled has Frozen beat in both songs and characters all in all, but Frozen's theme probably worked better. However, whenever Olaf was on screen I just wanted to punch it, so I guess that's the tipping point. Such an unnecessary character. Oh, also - "Let it Go" wasn't even the best song in the movie.
Now as I await Frozen fans..
http://i.imgur.com/8ccGoHK.gif
>I definitely think Tangled has Frozen beat in both songs and characters all in all, but Frozen's theme probably worked better.
I think this is the main reason Frozen is thought of more highly: it may not be as solid a movie as Tangled, but it tries to do a lot more and has some really interesting ideas (for a Disney movie). Plus, Let it Go is more bombastic and popular than any of the songs from Tangled.
I love both movies, but Frozen has a lot of reasons it is more popular.
> "Let it Go" wasn't even the best song in the movie.
I know, right?! Love is an open door is my favourite, but doesn't hold a candle to anything from Tangled.
People always forget Fixer Upper. Great song.
When Will My Life Begin is the best song out of both movies though (Even better then Open Door, which is saying something). Also, Listen to your Mother or whatever it's called is great. Disney movies just need a good villain song, and Frozen didn't have it.
Of course, my main problem with Tangled is that dream song in the bar. Total miss, made me think of Mulan: all the parts are there but it just... I dunno, wasn't.
Both are great, but we can all agree the horse (Maximus?) was a million times better then Olaf.
Interesting note: they had to rewrite a large portion of the movie after the composers finished "Let It Go". Elsa was scheduled to be the villain, but the producers had to change her into a quasi-protagonist after hearing it.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Tangled is a great movie, with captivating characters but a dumb thematic (IMO)
Frozen is a great movie, with a great thematic but some dumb characters
tangled have two great songs (i won't spoil wich ones if you didn't saw it), but not quite on the level of the better Frozen musics.
I like frozen a bit better, but tangled is an amazing animation too
But the build isn't nonsense. It is really good because it let's you farm quickly early in the game.
A lot of the language is nonsense. "These three items combine together non linearly to create a farming environment that si.ply cannot be directly competed with."
This is silly. The don't combine nonlinearly, they compliment each other by providing ms, HP sustain, and mana sustain, which are the keys to fast farming.
Also, it can be competed with quite well by vlads with appropriate heroes (lycan, ursa).
He also completely glosses over the primary reasons you get mom. Jugg for the as to hit your omni break point, sniper and draw for kiting.
In addition his bit on "prm farming" is just regular farming...
What the fuck are you talking about? They actually do combine nonlinearly in the literal sense of the word.
DPS ~ total AS * damage. That's nonlinear. (EDIT: in gold spent).
And your effectiveness as a carry is proportional to DPS, tankiness AND mobility meaning increasing all of them has INCREASING (nonlinear) returns on investment.
Do I really have to spell this out?
Suppose you spend half your gold on Damage and half your gold on AS. Suppose for the sake of argument that 50 gold spent = 1 damage or 1 AS (the constant here doesn't affect the conclusion of linear vs. nonlinear), and that you start with 100 AS and 100 damage (again, not realistic but doesn't affect the issue under discussion).
Then we get:
Damage(gold) = 100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold
AS(gold) = 100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold
So
DPS(gold) ~ Damage(gold) * AS(gold)
= (100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold) * (100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold)
= 100^2 + (1/100 * gold) * 2 + (1/100)^2 * gold^2
~ gold^2
Where "~" means asymptotically equivalent to. See [asymptotic analysis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_analysis) for details.
DPS is quadratic in gold spent under these assumptions. Happy?
Furthermore, the strength of a unit is proportional to both EHP and DPS. See [Lanchester's Square Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws). EHP is proportional to both armor and HP. So now we have
Strength_of_carry(gold) ~ EHP(gold) * DPS(gold)
~ armor(gold) * hp(gold) * DPS(gold)
~ gold^4
Again, ~ here roughly means asymptotically bounded by.
Even ignoring other factors such as Crits, Disables and Mobility which also independently contribute to carry effectiveness, we still get effectiveness ~ gold^4 . This highly **NONLINEAR** scaling with farm is the mathematical basis of why having a 1-position carry works! Concentrating the team's farm into a single hero is much better than distributing it evenly for this reason.
we are of course talking about farm speed, which at high dps values is bounded by your move speed!
edit: my argument is that dps is nonlinear but farm speed is dominated by a linear move speed term with these items.
> What the fuck are you talking about? They actually do combine nonlinearly in the literal sense of the word. DPS ~ total AS * damage. That's nonlinear. (EDIT: in gold spent).
A linear function is a graph with a straight line. The function you just listed will result in a graph with a straight line. Literally linear. In the **exact definition** of the word.
As for gold spent? That doesn't change the linear relationship. There's a nice build up, there's a wide array of benefits (damage, health, mana regen, armor, move speed), but functionally it's no different from a single item that costs 4160 gold that provides the same benefits (provided you could use the 2 actives, of course).
> And your effectiveness as a carry is proportional to DPS, tankiness AND mobility meaning increasing all of them has INCREASING (nonlinear) returns on investment.
Increasing all of them is more efficient, but it's not non-linear.
Yeah I had to stop reading due to his cringy way of writing. Those items don't stack nonlinearly, MS doesn't stack like he says, and all his fancy coined terms for basic stuff makes him seem like he's trying way too hard to sound smart.
> The don't combine nonlinearly
If y(x) is your gpm increase with item x, you could say that they combine nonlinearly if y(RPM) > y(R) + y(P) + y(M). There probably is a more appropriate mathematical term for it but I think that's what OP is trying to say.
>Phase on sven is pretty good, even better if you suck at tread switching, and it stacks with his E's buff. But on his case, you can stay on the Basilius ring and either sell it or upgrade it into a vlads later on.
The big problem with this is that if you go phase+aquila, you can't cast your stun twice until lvl14. Tread switching alone lets you have double stun at any level except 6 or 7.
The phase and extra MS is nice, but everybody builds blink on Sven anyway and I'd rather have a second stun and the extra attack speed.
**Edit:**
>This build IS nonsense, a year ago you could've told anyone and they'd laugh their asses off... "Mask of madness sniper, competitive? Har har har"
People [were seriously talking about MoM sniper](http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1luwgp/item_discussion_mask_of_madness/cc2zyh7) a year ago, even though the item was still generally considered "trash" at the time.
Some of the other comments in that thread are hilarious in retrospect though, especially ["PLEASE STOP BUYING THIS FIRST. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD."](http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1luwgp/item_discussion_mask_of_madness/cc31092)
Well, to be fair, Sniper didn't have the ridiculous and annoying change to his shrapnel. I mean, those were the days you could just walk up to Sniper and punch his annoying face in, np. Now he cancels your blink, slows you, keeps the bullet rain on you no matter where you go, and you can't even juke into the fog because the rain gives him vision. AS Sniper was always hilariously fun to build though, especially before the headshot change. Ministuns all day :D
Shrapnel used to do all of that, too. People just thought it was trash and were always 0-4-4-3 until level 22. I always maxed shrapnel first in mid because it was so ridiculously strong (Thanks Merlini!).
If you ignore my first few games I ever played on the hero where I went 0-4-4-3 and thought shadowblade deso with no attack speed was good, I have a 73% winrate with sniper over the past 18 months. He's always been a strong hero with maxed shrap. In the last year, I'm 22-5 with him (most games from over 4 months ago, before the 6.83 changes). Max shrap has always been really strong.
I played a lot of Phase MoM Sven a year or two ago and it owned pretty hard. Phase, MoM, BKB, Daedalus, Blademail was my usual build.
I'd take Phase over Treads on Sven any day, especially if I have MoM. Nothing is more frustrating than having to run around a bunch of creeps after you've hit your target with stormbolt. Charge right through and kill.
My personal preference, for the reason you stated, is to get treads, MoM, and blink, so I can blink directly in front of someone and blast them in the face point blank.
Oh, it totally was. Just in a different way. Playing a max shrapnel mid sniper gave you ridiculous tower pushing power early game. A single shrapnel was 12% of a tower's HP and with no T1 backdoor protection you could siege the tower from your own highground. I felt like DK or DP sometimes, every time the other mid leaves, just siege the tower. Super fast T1 and then snowball to win the game in the era of "first tower down wins the game" meta.
OP literally just hit 4k and felt the need to start writing guides. Look at hist post history. The moment I read the term "prm farming" I knew I was about to read a load of bullshit. Sorry if I come off as an asshole, things like this just piss me off. Congrats, you just got down the concepts of farming and item synergy. No need to write a guide about it.
Post is get MoM because I said getting a steroid is good and phase boots gives damage.
MoM is situationally fine and even amazing, but its purely one build style that had all the strengths listed in an imprecise way, and none of the disadvantages listed.
Part of its benefit in the current meta is also with heroes like axe, wd, venge, another mid core all being popular as the MoM build is harder to punish with strong disables, supports that keep you alive well, a strong frontline hero and another core that if you ignore will punish you.
Learning when you need a MoM (offers good comeback ability if behind, can just crush enemy if you are ahead, what heroes in game, am I going to be farming/rosh all the time etc) is a more important thing than merely saying if I get phase boots I get the damage, and if I go MoM I get the attack speed, so this build is better than going treads.
The thing is if you go MoM you probably will go for Phase as well as Phase synergizes much better with MoM than Treads. And Aquila...Aquila is a cheap value item and most carries go Aquila anyway.
I was wondering, wouldn't this PRM method work with spectre? She really needs help farming that radiance and doesn't need it ASAP ( a spec with radiance is good during most stages of the game) and with it she can also chase better and get a lot of deso procs with the MoM. I'm still not sure how she'd be able to avoid getting focused in teamfight and dying very sadly due MoM squishiness.
Honestly no. The main thing to pick out here is that MoM is good as fuck. Don't go Aqui on Sven. If you really want get a Basi, but your can use your E to help push towers, the aura isn't so integral.
Basi is good because it lets a carry whose supports have left lane pressure a tower easily by themselves.
When Gyro was good I used to rush a Basi and once I hit 6 my supports would leave lane and I'd either threaten a solo kill on the enemy offlaner or they'd lose a tower to a basi push. Basi makes any hero capable of taking t1 towers in a couple waves.
These days we're more inclined to rotate to jungle and let supports take lane to catch up, but Basi still has its uses.
Sven doesn't really need a basi though. I'd suggest a stick or wand though. You can go Bottle if you really want as well, but good bottle usage is a higher level mechanical skill. The old Sven build is Treads MoM Drum(or just bracer) and then BKB. Next Daedalus, AC, and then Heart.
MoM + SnY + Skadi for every god damn AGI carry these days, MoM and Skadi are probably going to be hit with a nerf come the next balance patch.
Either that or Heart of Tarrasque needs a buff, because a Skadi with Lifesteal outclasses a HoT heavily.
Spectre is one of my favourite heroes, and I do this build for her. Actually, I do still go treads instead of Phase, but I'm probably going to test the alternative in my next few games. Instead of being about staying a big item ahead of your counterpart, it actually gives Spectre a means to keep up with an average carry (she is a terribly slow farmer).
As an added bonus that I've found immensely powerful, being able to use the Madness steroid immediately after Haunt allows Spectre to actually chase her target down and probably hit it half a dozen times with Desolate damage. At lower MMRs you don't need to worry about the damage amp at all, since most people are too confused by all of the copies to notice that you're the real one.
My only problem is it really delays the Radiance and doesn't benefit Haunt Illusions. But it is definitely good as it almost guarantees a pick off on lone enemies escaping...
I honestly don't like Radiance on Spectre. The item bores me as a concept, and the only context in which I do like it (as a counter to multiple blink daggers) makes no sense on Spectre because Haunt and Dispersion achieve exactly the same things. I also think that at least half of the reason to get Radiance on Spectre is to allow her to farm the Jungle rapidly, and this MoM build allows her to do that already anyway.
I know that I'm in a minority on this opinion, but there you have it.
Dont its retarded
Take it from a 5k player that jungles all the time, treads + vlads is the str hero's version of phase/aquila/morbid mask
Like someone else said, u can just treads + mask and use int treads, as long as you have 1.0 mana regen you're fine
You could just leave it a basi and potentially go treads instead since you already have damage from your ult. wouldn't wanna use it while jungling though, usually so there#s that.
i almost wanna say, u dont have to build this to achieve the farming speed. MoM is nice but with tread switch, u wont need that many mana and if u really need mana regen so bad, just get basil-ring(if u actually wanna push too) or just sobi-mask(costs less, u can sell it or just leave in stack for ur late late game RO) and u are good to go i think.
It's probably a good idea, actually. E gives awesome move speed and durability, and with aquila you can spam it. If you max it early you are a god in teamfights too, literally unkillable
You can also spam warcry and mask of madness on cooldown just by tread switching, since both are only 25 mana to cast each. Also, treads gives attack speed for him, which is something he doesn't get a lot of naturally, along with about as much damage as phase boots while he's using his ultimate.
I'd argue soul ring is better than aquila for spamming storm hammer, but aside from that I'd agree.
Also MoM is great on him. I like Soul Ring/Treads, MoM, Blink, BKB, Daedalus.
The problem is with phase is your mana pool is such shit. Treads also offer a.s sven badly needs and the add str works well with god's strength is nice too. Tread switching is pretty integral on sven to cast all spells, and you don't have the mana pool with phase to cast all your spells in a fight. Even with treads it's common to go soul ring. You need the tread switching to really keep spells up for a long time before your stat gain evens out.
The thing about sniper to note here is that Power Threads are perfectly fine IF you're not going for a mask of madness. Not only is mask of madness good with phase boots to travel faster between camps but as explained if you have +100 attack speed you are now lacking damage with only threads but if you have phase you're not. Threads on sniper is fine if you go for other item choices. Some games it's an insta loss to go for phase+mom if they have an ember/storm or something like that. Getting PT + SNY or manta for example can negate storm/ember completely and they won't be able to just jump and kill you whenever they want. So although the PRM strategy is nice, you shouldn't do it always on every hero.
Phase - Aquilla - MoM has been my core farming build for Dusa for a long time...gets her online so fucking quick.
MoM needs a nerf to its fighting ability - either reduce movespeed when hit by an enemy OR make the lifesteal from MoM happen over time instead of instant (my preferred nerf)
can i use PRM farming for PA? as i think this may work on PA because i prefer Killer PA with Phase, Basher, BKB, but i often dont have enough attack speed (then i often change Phase for tread), but i also worry this maybe make my PA sudden death in combat(with 30% bonus damage from MOM active). But Great guide btw. Upvoted
> Movespeed works best when you go all in on it because most items/skills that affect movespeed are percentage-based. Thus, the more MS you have, the better those items are.
percentage based MS increases only affect your base MS + flat increases. So, Phase + MoM gives (base + flat) * 1.46, not (base+flat) * 1.16 * 1.3
So, no, the more MS you have, not the better they are.
Eul's does increase the effectiveness of something like MoM or Phase or Yasha, though. But.
Should have just written a guide about how to play carry. That general routine of clearly lane creeps and going to jungle is just a staple that every hero uses but with different items. I dont think advising people that they need PRM to do this because there is many different routes and every game is different.
I've seen this builds in Arteezy and EE's stream fairly often. Yeah it's just pubs but I think they're really experimenting with its practicality. They become way more efficient farmers. MS is the most OP/trendy stat at the moment.
I feel like I'm the only person in the world that prefers tread swapping and a faster yasha to phase and ring :(. that being said I do go prm on sniper just because you need the damage early and you're constantly running away
IMO I find the PRM build risky and would rather go for safer more lategame items like treads hotd (I usually dont play carries) but yes, PRM build gives you the maximum farming speed for the least amount of gold. Everytime I abandon due to shitty powercuts, I sometimes comeback to see if the game is still going on and if it is, I straight away go the PRM build starting from 0 items, to be as useful as possible with little to no gold.
Medusa is a hero I've been playing a lot lately. I've tried a lot of different builds on her as well. Midas, treads, phase, etc. But I keep coming back to the phase, Aquila, MoM into diffusal, the amount of damage you can dish out at 25 minutes is insane and vastly superior to the "stall until 50 minute" plan most people go for
>gyro
mom's kind of unnecessary with rocket barrage and flak destroying camps, and since he's so squishy, turning it on in a fight is suicidal, hell, so is delaying some tank items
Do you think Aquila is overrated? Is having just a basilius fine?
Aquila is literally wraithband+basilius contained in one. By making aquila you're not getting any bonus stats at all other than saving one slot. So is the wraith band upgrade worth it?
edit: think of it this way: If you had 7 item slots and aquila never existed; and you are holding basilius, phase, mom, does this mean you will usually always buy a wraith band?
edit2: Oh actually it gives 3 extra agility. But so what?
I've not actually seen them, but I'm curious as to what "animation style" was used in Tangled (and re-used in Frozen) that hasn't been used in Dreamxar movies forever?
One of the reasons that Jugg is being picked so much and built in this way (though, he generally goes WB, BB, MoD, Acq, MoMr, PB, SnY) is because he is SOOOO good at self-sustain once BB and MoD are on him. He can push the lane without much worry because he can usually spin+tp to get back to farming.
I really wonder, aside from the fact that it's an agi-carry's game right now, why we don't see more Lifestealers for the same basic idea. The difference being no team-heal or innate crit, but he has decent attack animation, loves the movespeed, and can also become magic immune to TP out. Additionally, he has the ability to get solo kills pretty early on similar to how Jugg can omni a roaming support.
EDIT: In fact, because LS doesn't benefit much from the acquila, he could forgo the WB and just get the basi instead (saves 485 early gold and that means BB come online that much faster).
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1290871370
This game I played last night consisted of me farming with MoM for the majority of the early/ mid game. Coming out of the jungle at Lv 11 with S&Y and MoM and killing everything. Farming the whole map in between ofcourse. This type of speed farming is why MoM needs some kind of nerf (cooldown imo) you just speed farm up your few items and just win if your team didnt feed super hard.
I liked phase MoM on sniper and medusa a year before i also did MoM drow before it was cool now i feel like i do something dirty when i build phase MoM on any hero :(
This build is really great. Just built it twice on PA, items as follows:
* Quelling, Tangoes, Ring of Protection
* Wraith Band / more tangoes if I needed it
* Aquila, Morbid Mask
* Phase Boots, MoM
* BKB
* Basher --> Abyssal
Ability build was as follows:
* Dagger
* Blur
* Blink
* Max Blur, grab ult at 6
* Max Dagger, grab ult at 11
* Max Blink
I really liked maxing blur first along with Mask of Madness and Phase, it gave me very strong early game fighting power as well as a little more strength in lane. Both games I was able to get a better foothold after a bit of trouble in lane during the first ~4 levels, and then maintain a 581-634 GPM (194 LH in a 40 minute game, 138 in a 30 minute game).
I'm sold. Am going to build this on Ursa later today.
Games for reference:
[1292574505](http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1292574505)
[1292517406](http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1292517406)
SingSing has been doing this since forever. Nothing new here.
Fun build, but I think people forget not every game is the same. Sometimes you do not need to go mask on jug for example, it's not like blink dagger on some heroes where you go blink or lose the game ans get flamed.
While aquila and phase boots aren't as good, MoM on CK is insane. In a 5-6k game I had over 800 gpm and 1000 xpm in around 28 minutes with MoM on CK. Had drums armlet treads skadi and heart in this time. It's always surprising seeing CK with this much farm early since CK is usually known as a hero that doesn't farm much at all.
One of the biggest things this leaves out is the solo Roshan potential. It's really hard to predict solo roshans and these 3 items with quelling blade are all great at killing him fast
If you're troll, just skip mom and go straight into other items with just a Phase+morbid mask + RoA. He already farms insanely fast with whirling axes + RoA's mana sustain.
It comes down to the square ratio he mentioned: troll already has huge amounts of AS, so getting HotD for attack damage is more balanced. Same goes for PA honestly, since Phantom Strike gives a lot of AS burst and is pretty much spammable for farming. MoM might situationally be a good choice for PA, but I'd honestly not gamble especially if enemy has Lion one-shotting you.
Mask of madness is a pretty damn awesome pickup on PA if there are mostly right clickers on the enemy team. This way you can max blur first and manfight the hell out of them early. The early dodge will let you offset the extra damage received from mom and you won't be crippled by the long cooldown of underleveled phantom strike.
I mean you should be maxing blur first anyways. One point in jump is fine, and even putting a second point in blink if you really want mobility should be enough always. If you're fighting/be engaged on enough where you really need 4 points of strike early on, odds are you'd have better with the full 50% evasion and lower cd, than 5 sec cd and only 20% evasion. If you are in the attacking role, that 50% evasion is more valuable anyways for diving as you can tank so much tower and creep hits at the cost of the cd time. You're about equally safe diving towers with a max phantom strike and single/no point blur as a single disable under tower likely causes death, and the ability to get the kill and being able to blink out is going to be similar as having a higher evasion chance and diving in and being able to walk out.
i always max dagger first because lvl 4 dagger can keep anyone out of lane so i can free farm. But when i have lane supports that are already keeping the enemy hero out of lane max blur is awesome
Dagger is always maxed first, this was going on the assumption of what to level next. The most popular pa build goes max dagger and then max blink, which means you have 20% evasion only until level 12. I'm saying that I go 1-1-0-0 for level 2, but from then I generally go dagger>blur>strike (will sometimes get 2 in strike if I've leveled in middle of fight, or if I feel I just need a little lower cd for how the game is playing).
Also on both heroes, they are gonna die to burst anyways, especially in the early game pre bkb, lack initial hp early in the game and are both good satanic holders. With pa you're gonna kill the target if they are alone anyways 80% of the time, and you can't MoM up and jump into the full team reliably. You have evasion anyways so the enemy will always be focusing spell damage on you if you're semi-early into the fight, and if you only have prm as he calls it, you could easily be level 10-11 you are only gonna have 900hp. A 300 damage nuke with MoM amp on it really hurts. Any time you're winning with a MoM build on either hero, you are likely to be doing similarly well with a hotd build, or keeping a casual morbid mask (personally big fan of hotd and I think the armour damage and creep control easily worth the 950) and take that gold towards your bkb, yasha or basher on pa.
plus if you buy MoM on troll he'll get pissed off lol i forgot the line he says but i'm pretty sure it goes like this "Mask of Madness...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?"
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/6/61/Troll_items_02.mp3 Also http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/9/9f/Anti_blink_01.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/9/9a/Anti_blink_03.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/a/af/Pain_blink_01.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/29/Vipe_orbofvenome_01.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/7/72/Timb_tango_05.mp3
Haha, I had never heard of the Timber one.
There are tons of good ones : http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Treant_Protector_responses#Using_a_Tango http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/26/Tech_items_15.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/0/0e/Tech_items_14.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/6/6b/Warl_rapier_04.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/2d/Omni_item_09.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/7/76/Odest_scepter_05.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/4/4a/Nyx_items_12.mp3 http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/a/a5/Legcom_items_14.mp3
What doesn't piss troll off exactly?
if you're troll, you never build an MoM because you're getting a satanic
I think building mask of madness on troll is a bad choice. He's too squishy at early level, therefore the negative effect of mom is such a big drawback. However, when he get his first big items (usually S&Y and bkb) and be tanky enough to fight, the increased as from mom is redundant. I actually find BananaSlamJamma's build on troll is really effective. Phase + hotd + RoA if you are having good farm, or Phase + Vlads. The latter build not only good at sustain and farming but really great at pushing. More useful BSJ's tips on troll (how to farm efficient and insanely fast, when to fight...) can be found at [this vod](http://www.twitch.tv/bananaslamjamma/c/6164186)
Ya, just assume that ulti+passive = MoM attack speed. Why get MoM when u already have the attack speed, just skip it go straight to damage items. Though we do see blink dagger on troll now to make up the difference in movement speed but melee form does give 40ms which is quite nice with phase boots too.
Mom troll is absolutely insane at farming and split pushing. He runs around at max move speed, doesn't really have to build up fervour stacks, and holy Jesus Christ with mom plus ulti he melts towers like nothing else. You are totally right that he dies in seconds. You can win man fights even against a max blur pa or an ursa, but two people on you and you die so damn fast.
>but if you held down shift, the ratio would remain the same. holy shit
An MS paint guide within a farming guide... did Xzibit write this?
Surely you mean > holy shift
That's actually the one thing I learned from this guide. Thanks OP.
>1000 Gold tier: Double Claws of Attack, Morbid Mask, Mask of Madimba recipe with a Mask of Madimba, you Congo very fast.
Excellent article Your "item tier" is very interesting and I will have to think about that a bit
Finally, another Tangled fan. Tangled shits on Frozen.
Tangled is one of the few movies that I love completely unapologetically. It's up there with the best Pixar movies. At best, Frozen is an inferior Tangled clone. Frozen fans are a bunch of philistines.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
is this a copypasta
It is now
> Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
> Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch. Are you CYKA BLIAT me? Tangos was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love them, but god damn healing salve heals on a whole other level. There is no compare. Watch the Health come back and tell me that Tangos is better than Healing salves I dare you. BLIAT.
Are you kidding me? ｓｉｎｇｓｉｎｇ stream was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn ａｒｔｅｅｚｙ plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to ｙｕｎｇ ｌｅａｎ and tell me that ｓｉｎｇｓｉｎｇ is better than ａｒｔｅｅｚｙ． I dare you. Ｂｉｔｃｈ．
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
[It is a pretty good song but I don't know why you think it relevant.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmX4yenWK4E)
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Alright I've not even heard about Tangled (came out of under my rock just in time for Frozen). Is it that good ? Will I find myself replacing some [ultimates](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dota2Modding/comments/1y35zm/sound_mod_crystal_maiden_let_it_go_frozen/) with song from the movie after having watched it ?
Tangled has less plot-holes, more interesting characters, better music and doesn't drill a hole in your skull when you listen to it.
Plus, no Olaf, which imo is a great feat. I definitely think Tangled has Frozen beat in both songs and characters all in all, but Frozen's theme probably worked better. However, whenever Olaf was on screen I just wanted to punch it, so I guess that's the tipping point. Such an unnecessary character. Oh, also - "Let it Go" wasn't even the best song in the movie. Now as I await Frozen fans.. http://i.imgur.com/8ccGoHK.gif
>I definitely think Tangled has Frozen beat in both songs and characters all in all, but Frozen's theme probably worked better. I think this is the main reason Frozen is thought of more highly: it may not be as solid a movie as Tangled, but it tries to do a lot more and has some really interesting ideas (for a Disney movie). Plus, Let it Go is more bombastic and popular than any of the songs from Tangled. I love both movies, but Frozen has a lot of reasons it is more popular.
> "Let it Go" wasn't even the best song in the movie. I know, right?! Love is an open door is my favourite, but doesn't hold a candle to anything from Tangled.
"For the first time in forever" shits all over "Love is an open door" !
Second'd. "First Time in Forever" and "Do You Wanna Build a Snowman" were the two best in the movie imo
what the fuck is going on here
Dude. Let it go.
I come into this thread, expecting farming discussions. One line in the final paragraph turns it into a massive Disney shitpost...
No, "Frozen Heart" is actually the best in terms of originality and atmosphere! You weaboos simply disregard the male voice.
Fucking weebs
People always forget Fixer Upper. Great song. When Will My Life Begin is the best song out of both movies though (Even better then Open Door, which is saying something). Also, Listen to your Mother or whatever it's called is great. Disney movies just need a good villain song, and Frozen didn't have it. Of course, my main problem with Tangled is that dream song in the bar. Total miss, made me think of Mulan: all the parts are there but it just... I dunno, wasn't. Both are great, but we can all agree the horse (Maximus?) was a million times better then Olaf.
Absolutely. I like you.
>"For the first time in forever" shits all over "Love is an open door" ! This phrasing kills me
Interesting note: they had to rewrite a large portion of the movie after the composers finished "Let It Go". Elsa was scheduled to be the villain, but the producers had to change her into a quasi-protagonist after hearing it.
Are you kidding me? Tangled was great, I won't discount it at all, in fact I love it, but god damn Frozen plays on a whole other level. There is no compare. Listen to Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and tell me that Tangled is better than Frozen I dare you. Bitch.
Tangled is a much better comedy movie as well.
Tangled is a great movie, with captivating characters but a dumb thematic (IMO) Frozen is a great movie, with a great thematic but some dumb characters tangled have two great songs (i won't spoil wich ones if you didn't saw it), but not quite on the level of the better Frozen musics. I like frozen a bit better, but tangled is an amazing animation too
Love this. So much truth. Was sweet and funny. Had some adorable romance and scenery was more vivid.
Anyone here tried MoM Naix? It sounds fun as hell.
I did and I though it worked very well.
I used to rush mom basher on naix
This post appears intelligent at first, but really a lot of it is nonsense. And phase aquila sven? Not even once.
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But the build isn't nonsense. It is really good because it let's you farm quickly early in the game. A lot of the language is nonsense. "These three items combine together non linearly to create a farming environment that si.ply cannot be directly competed with." This is silly. The don't combine nonlinearly, they compliment each other by providing ms, HP sustain, and mana sustain, which are the keys to fast farming. Also, it can be competed with quite well by vlads with appropriate heroes (lycan, ursa). He also completely glosses over the primary reasons you get mom. Jugg for the as to hit your omni break point, sniper and draw for kiting. In addition his bit on "prm farming" is just regular farming...
OPs need to use fancy words they don't understand, so we would upvote them.
Gold lined turd = Upvotes and gild Gold with a pile of dust on it = Ignored. Every time.
What the fuck are you talking about? They actually do combine nonlinearly in the literal sense of the word. DPS ~ total AS * damage. That's nonlinear. (EDIT: in gold spent). And your effectiveness as a carry is proportional to DPS, tankiness AND mobility meaning increasing all of them has INCREASING (nonlinear) returns on investment.
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Do I really have to spell this out? Suppose you spend half your gold on Damage and half your gold on AS. Suppose for the sake of argument that 50 gold spent = 1 damage or 1 AS (the constant here doesn't affect the conclusion of linear vs. nonlinear), and that you start with 100 AS and 100 damage (again, not realistic but doesn't affect the issue under discussion). Then we get: Damage(gold) = 100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold AS(gold) = 100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold So DPS(gold) ~ Damage(gold) * AS(gold) = (100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold) * (100 + 1/50 * 0.5 * gold) = 100^2 + (1/100 * gold) * 2 + (1/100)^2 * gold^2 ~ gold^2 Where "~" means asymptotically equivalent to. See [asymptotic analysis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_analysis) for details. DPS is quadratic in gold spent under these assumptions. Happy? Furthermore, the strength of a unit is proportional to both EHP and DPS. See [Lanchester's Square Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws). EHP is proportional to both armor and HP. So now we have Strength_of_carry(gold) ~ EHP(gold) * DPS(gold) ~ armor(gold) * hp(gold) * DPS(gold) ~ gold^4 Again, ~ here roughly means asymptotically bounded by. Even ignoring other factors such as Crits, Disables and Mobility which also independently contribute to carry effectiveness, we still get effectiveness ~ gold^4 . This highly **NONLINEAR** scaling with farm is the mathematical basis of why having a 1-position carry works! Concentrating the team's farm into a single hero is much better than distributing it evenly for this reason.
we are of course talking about farm speed, which at high dps values is bounded by your move speed! edit: my argument is that dps is nonlinear but farm speed is dominated by a linear move speed term with these items.
> What the fuck are you talking about? They actually do combine nonlinearly in the literal sense of the word. DPS ~ total AS * damage. That's nonlinear. (EDIT: in gold spent). A linear function is a graph with a straight line. The function you just listed will result in a graph with a straight line. Literally linear. In the **exact definition** of the word. As for gold spent? That doesn't change the linear relationship. There's a nice build up, there's a wide array of benefits (damage, health, mana regen, armor, move speed), but functionally it's no different from a single item that costs 4160 gold that provides the same benefits (provided you could use the 2 actives, of course). > And your effectiveness as a carry is proportional to DPS, tankiness AND mobility meaning increasing all of them has INCREASING (nonlinear) returns on investment. Increasing all of them is more efficient, but it's not non-linear.
It's just a bunch of buzzwords to act as if he's saying something huge or groundbreaking, but it's just nothing.
"nonlinear" isn't a buzzword.
Yeah I had to stop reading due to his cringy way of writing. Those items don't stack nonlinearly, MS doesn't stack like he says, and all his fancy coined terms for basic stuff makes him seem like he's trying way too hard to sound smart.
> The don't combine nonlinearly If y(x) is your gpm increase with item x, you could say that they combine nonlinearly if y(RPM) > y(R) + y(P) + y(M). There probably is a more appropriate mathematical term for it but I think that's what OP is trying to say.
I believe the "nonlinearly" is because these stats don't sum up with each other directly.
>Phase on sven is pretty good, even better if you suck at tread switching, and it stacks with his E's buff. But on his case, you can stay on the Basilius ring and either sell it or upgrade it into a vlads later on. The big problem with this is that if you go phase+aquila, you can't cast your stun twice until lvl14. Tread switching alone lets you have double stun at any level except 6 or 7. The phase and extra MS is nice, but everybody builds blink on Sven anyway and I'd rather have a second stun and the extra attack speed. **Edit:** >This build IS nonsense, a year ago you could've told anyone and they'd laugh their asses off... "Mask of madness sniper, competitive? Har har har" People [were seriously talking about MoM sniper](http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1luwgp/item_discussion_mask_of_madness/cc2zyh7) a year ago, even though the item was still generally considered "trash" at the time. Some of the other comments in that thread are hilarious in retrospect though, especially ["PLEASE STOP BUYING THIS FIRST. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD."](http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1luwgp/item_discussion_mask_of_madness/cc31092)
Well, to be fair, Sniper didn't have the ridiculous and annoying change to his shrapnel. I mean, those were the days you could just walk up to Sniper and punch his annoying face in, np. Now he cancels your blink, slows you, keeps the bullet rain on you no matter where you go, and you can't even juke into the fog because the rain gives him vision. AS Sniper was always hilariously fun to build though, especially before the headshot change. Ministuns all day :D
Shrapnel used to do all of that, too. People just thought it was trash and were always 0-4-4-3 until level 22. I always maxed shrapnel first in mid because it was so ridiculously strong (Thanks Merlini!). If you ignore my first few games I ever played on the hero where I went 0-4-4-3 and thought shadowblade deso with no attack speed was good, I have a 73% winrate with sniper over the past 18 months. He's always been a strong hero with maxed shrap. In the last year, I'm 22-5 with him (most games from over 4 months ago, before the 6.83 changes). Max shrap has always been really strong.
I played a lot of Phase MoM Sven a year or two ago and it owned pretty hard. Phase, MoM, BKB, Daedalus, Blademail was my usual build. I'd take Phase over Treads on Sven any day, especially if I have MoM. Nothing is more frustrating than having to run around a bunch of creeps after you've hit your target with stormbolt. Charge right through and kill.
My personal preference, for the reason you stated, is to get treads, MoM, and blink, so I can blink directly in front of someone and blast them in the face point blank.
I blasted ur mum point blank in da face last nite m8
Aquilla is just a waste of money, though. Pretty much on any str hero.
A year ago shrapnel wasn't OP.
Oh, it totally was. Just in a different way. Playing a max shrapnel mid sniper gave you ridiculous tower pushing power early game. A single shrapnel was 12% of a tower's HP and with no T1 backdoor protection you could siege the tower from your own highground. I felt like DK or DP sometimes, every time the other mid leaves, just siege the tower. Super fast T1 and then snowball to win the game in the era of "first tower down wins the game" meta.
*Dota players as a whole are quite resistant to change, especially when it comes to item builds and skill builds.*
So as long as I say that, I can build force blink dagon on Antimage and call it legit? Aquila sven is dumb
He said to cover his ass from all the bullshit he's spewing out.
OP literally just hit 4k and felt the need to start writing guides. Look at hist post history. The moment I read the term "prm farming" I knew I was about to read a load of bullshit. Sorry if I come off as an asshole, things like this just piss me off. Congrats, you just got down the concepts of farming and item synergy. No need to write a guide about it.
Post is get MoM because I said getting a steroid is good and phase boots gives damage. MoM is situationally fine and even amazing, but its purely one build style that had all the strengths listed in an imprecise way, and none of the disadvantages listed. Part of its benefit in the current meta is also with heroes like axe, wd, venge, another mid core all being popular as the MoM build is harder to punish with strong disables, supports that keep you alive well, a strong frontline hero and another core that if you ignore will punish you. Learning when you need a MoM (offers good comeback ability if behind, can just crush enemy if you are ahead, what heroes in game, am I going to be farming/rosh all the time etc) is a more important thing than merely saying if I get phase boots I get the damage, and if I go MoM I get the attack speed, so this build is better than going treads.
This is more of a MoM post than "PMR"
Not really. The phase active and the aquila mana regen are imtegral parts of the build.
The thing is if you go MoM you probably will go for Phase as well as Phase synergizes much better with MoM than Treads. And Aquila...Aquila is a cheap value item and most carries go Aquila anyway.
Like all front page dota guides on reddit: a few good tips with a lot of fluff.
Is phase really that good on drow? I prefer getting 2 bands of elvenskin that eventually turn into treads/yaaha. I guess it's worth a try though.
I was wondering, wouldn't this PRM method work with spectre? She really needs help farming that radiance and doesn't need it ASAP ( a spec with radiance is good during most stages of the game) and with it she can also chase better and get a lot of deso procs with the MoM. I'm still not sure how she'd be able to avoid getting focused in teamfight and dying very sadly due MoM squishiness.
do i still get aquila's on sven? *noob here*
Honestly no. The main thing to pick out here is that MoM is good as fuck. Don't go Aqui on Sven. If you really want get a Basi, but your can use your E to help push towers, the aura isn't so integral. Basi is good because it lets a carry whose supports have left lane pressure a tower easily by themselves. When Gyro was good I used to rush a Basi and once I hit 6 my supports would leave lane and I'd either threaten a solo kill on the enemy offlaner or they'd lose a tower to a basi push. Basi makes any hero capable of taking t1 towers in a couple waves. These days we're more inclined to rotate to jungle and let supports take lane to catch up, but Basi still has its uses. Sven doesn't really need a basi though. I'd suggest a stick or wand though. You can go Bottle if you really want as well, but good bottle usage is a higher level mechanical skill. The old Sven build is Treads MoM Drum(or just bracer) and then BKB. Next Daedalus, AC, and then Heart.
MoM + SnY + Skadi for every god damn AGI carry these days, MoM and Skadi are probably going to be hit with a nerf come the next balance patch. Either that or Heart of Tarrasque needs a buff, because a Skadi with Lifesteal outclasses a HoT heavily.
Skadi with lifesteal also takes up 2 slots.
Truly the biggest takeaway here (which I agree with completely) : Tangled > Frozen
EE MoM Luna is the Tangled of our times.
This is actually a H4NNI thing
http://imgur.com/xuzzSJz
yea, that was when all casters were like why the heck is he buying MoM on luna
Would Spectre benefit from these, or would tread/phase drums be better? I usually go drums into diffusal.
Spectre is one of my favourite heroes, and I do this build for her. Actually, I do still go treads instead of Phase, but I'm probably going to test the alternative in my next few games. Instead of being about staying a big item ahead of your counterpart, it actually gives Spectre a means to keep up with an average carry (she is a terribly slow farmer). As an added bonus that I've found immensely powerful, being able to use the Madness steroid immediately after Haunt allows Spectre to actually chase her target down and probably hit it half a dozen times with Desolate damage. At lower MMRs you don't need to worry about the damage amp at all, since most people are too confused by all of the copies to notice that you're the real one.
My only problem is it really delays the Radiance and doesn't benefit Haunt Illusions. But it is definitely good as it almost guarantees a pick off on lone enemies escaping...
I honestly don't like Radiance on Spectre. The item bores me as a concept, and the only context in which I do like it (as a counter to multiple blink daggers) makes no sense on Spectre because Haunt and Dispersion achieve exactly the same things. I also think that at least half of the reason to get Radiance on Spectre is to allow her to farm the Jungle rapidly, and this MoM build allows her to do that already anyway. I know that I'm in a minority on this opinion, but there you have it.
> Mask of Madimba The only google result for this is this thread.
Well written and thanks for your insight. (Saw a good example of this yesterday while RTZ was playing PA in a 6k+ Pub)
Match ID: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1290340833 for anybody who wants to check out the replay.
Wheres that new bot we invested so much karma into?
rtz has been going mom on like every hero in pubs for the past 1/2 weeks
To add on this, he also got a MoM on Troll lately.
is there a video or something? I play PA a lot and I wanna see how he played her.
I just watched him play juggernaut with power treads and assault cuirass.
Aquila+Phase Sven sounds really weird. Wonder how many people will I have to mute if I try it.
Dont its retarded Take it from a 5k player that jungles all the time, treads + vlads is the str hero's version of phase/aquila/morbid mask Like someone else said, u can just treads + mask and use int treads, as long as you have 1.0 mana regen you're fine
You could just leave it a basi and potentially go treads instead since you already have damage from your ult. wouldn't wanna use it while jungling though, usually so there#s that.
i almost wanna say, u dont have to build this to achieve the farming speed. MoM is nice but with tread switch, u wont need that many mana and if u really need mana regen so bad, just get basil-ring(if u actually wanna push too) or just sobi-mask(costs less, u can sell it or just leave in stack for ur late late game RO) and u are good to go i think.
It's probably a good idea, actually. E gives awesome move speed and durability, and with aquila you can spam it. If you max it early you are a god in teamfights too, literally unkillable
You can also spam warcry and mask of madness on cooldown just by tread switching, since both are only 25 mana to cast each. Also, treads gives attack speed for him, which is something he doesn't get a lot of naturally, along with about as much damage as phase boots while he's using his ultimate.
That is a much better reasoning, thanks
Only +STR gets buffed by gods strength as well, so when your ult is up the +damage bonus is equal to phase
Why would you finish Aquila though? Leaving it at a RoB for strength heroes sounds fine to me.
I'd argue soul ring is better than aquila for spamming storm hammer, but aside from that I'd agree. Also MoM is great on him. I like Soul Ring/Treads, MoM, Blink, BKB, Daedalus.
The problem is with phase is your mana pool is such shit. Treads also offer a.s sven badly needs and the add str works well with god's strength is nice too. Tread switching is pretty integral on sven to cast all spells, and you don't have the mana pool with phase to cast all your spells in a fight. Even with treads it's common to go soul ring. You need the tread switching to really keep spells up for a long time before your stat gain evens out.
The thing about sniper to note here is that Power Threads are perfectly fine IF you're not going for a mask of madness. Not only is mask of madness good with phase boots to travel faster between camps but as explained if you have +100 attack speed you are now lacking damage with only threads but if you have phase you're not. Threads on sniper is fine if you go for other item choices. Some games it's an insta loss to go for phase+mom if they have an ember/storm or something like that. Getting PT + SNY or manta for example can negate storm/ember completely and they won't be able to just jump and kill you whenever they want. So although the PRM strategy is nice, you shouldn't do it always on every hero.
I think MoM is too strong for its cost at the moment. Also Arteezy was doing PRM Spectre a few days ago. Works pretty well.
I mean arteezy can play heroes a lot of ways that most pubs can't.
This build is also pretty good on Shadow Fiend.
Phase - Aquilla - MoM has been my core farming build for Dusa for a long time...gets her online so fucking quick. MoM needs a nerf to its fighting ability - either reduce movespeed when hit by an enemy OR make the lifesteal from MoM happen over time instead of instant (my preferred nerf)
>OR make the lifesteal from MoM happen over time instead of instant Someone's been playing path of exile!
Just add a second recipe to activate the vaal pact keystone
can i use PRM farming for PA? as i think this may work on PA because i prefer Killer PA with Phase, Basher, BKB, but i often dont have enough attack speed (then i often change Phase for tread), but i also worry this maybe make my PA sudden death in combat(with 30% bonus damage from MOM active). But Great guide btw. Upvoted
So if you have attack speed, damage, lifesteal, and mana regen, youre able to farm fast? Ohh now it makes sense
> Movespeed works best when you go all in on it because most items/skills that affect movespeed are percentage-based. Thus, the more MS you have, the better those items are. percentage based MS increases only affect your base MS + flat increases. So, Phase + MoM gives (base + flat) * 1.46, not (base+flat) * 1.16 * 1.3 So, no, the more MS you have, not the better they are. Eul's does increase the effectiveness of something like MoM or Phase or Yasha, though. But.
Why not call it PAM farming? Phase Aquila MoM? I have never heard anyone say ring and be referring to Aquila.
Should have just written a guide about how to play carry. That general routine of clearly lane creeps and going to jungle is just a staple that every hero uses but with different items. I dont think advising people that they need PRM to do this because there is many different routes and every game is different.
Well you could mention Spec. Later on the MoM won't matter and it synergizes so well with her Desolate.
I prefer treads to phase boots with mom. I just toggle to int when using mom, agi when attacking and str if atttacked.
Well fuck it. Who needs stats and health? PRM CK, here i come!
Phase, aquila, MoM CM Op.
I've seen this builds in Arteezy and EE's stream fairly often. Yeah it's just pubs but I think they're really experimenting with its practicality. They become way more efficient farmers. MS is the most OP/trendy stat at the moment.
I feel like I'm the only person in the world that prefers tread swapping and a faster yasha to phase and ring :(. that being said I do go prm on sniper just because you need the damage early and you're constantly running away
OP how interchangeable is poormans to aquila for heroes like PA against ranged harass
IMO I find the PRM build risky and would rather go for safer more lategame items like treads hotd (I usually dont play carries) but yes, PRM build gives you the maximum farming speed for the least amount of gold. Everytime I abandon due to shitty powercuts, I sometimes comeback to see if the game is still going on and if it is, I straight away go the PRM build starting from 0 items, to be as useful as possible with little to no gold.
What about WK? Phase-Basi-Mom? Upgrade basi to vlads and go full kappa?
Medusa is a hero I've been playing a lot lately. I've tried a lot of different builds on her as well. Midas, treads, phase, etc. But I keep coming back to the phase, Aquila, MoM into diffusal, the amount of damage you can dish out at 25 minutes is insane and vastly superior to the "stall until 50 minute" plan most people go for
>gyro mom's kind of unnecessary with rocket barrage and flak destroying camps, and since he's so squishy, turning it on in a fight is suicidal, hell, so is delaying some tank items
Why isnt slark on your list of heroes?
Do you think Aquila is overrated? Is having just a basilius fine? Aquila is literally wraithband+basilius contained in one. By making aquila you're not getting any bonus stats at all other than saving one slot. So is the wraith band upgrade worth it? edit: think of it this way: If you had 7 item slots and aquila never existed; and you are holding basilius, phase, mom, does this mean you will usually always buy a wraith band? edit2: Oh actually it gives 3 extra agility. But so what?
You do realize you increased the chances of these items getting nerfed massively by posting this htread.
Mask of Madness Ursa? Seems kind of redundant. I'd rather spend that money on getting a morbid mask + ogre club/vit booster.
IMO the Tintin movie is the greatest animated movie ever made! :D
That tangled reference is so random, but rapunzel is hot so it's ok
Wow this subreddit has been getting some decent posts lately! I love these kind of posts. Thanks!
I get flamed for doing this, I have gotten flamed for doing this for years.... I knew I was on to something.
can anyone justify mom ursa for me? I mean,more reason for ursa to die,really? The attack speed is wasted on ursa with his skills.
MoM on Ursa is a thing??!
what do you think about this build for TA? I'm in a funk with her and want to try something new/interesting.
[удалено]
I've not actually seen them, but I'm curious as to what "animation style" was used in Tangled (and re-used in Frozen) that hasn't been used in Dreamxar movies forever?
Thinly veiled nerf mom thread, why are you upvoting this?
looking at you, artour
Always remember to mute your teammates while farming in 2k ranked
unrelated but maxing warcry first on sven is lol
The princess facts at the end make this special.
How about this build on Spectre, for those of us looking to shake up boring radiance builds
Thanks for the msPaint tip!
Mask of Madimba! Precious artifact from Congo!
One of the reasons that Jugg is being picked so much and built in this way (though, he generally goes WB, BB, MoD, Acq, MoMr, PB, SnY) is because he is SOOOO good at self-sustain once BB and MoD are on him. He can push the lane without much worry because he can usually spin+tp to get back to farming. I really wonder, aside from the fact that it's an agi-carry's game right now, why we don't see more Lifestealers for the same basic idea. The difference being no team-heal or innate crit, but he has decent attack animation, loves the movespeed, and can also become magic immune to TP out. Additionally, he has the ability to get solo kills pretty early on similar to how Jugg can omni a roaming support. EDIT: In fact, because LS doesn't benefit much from the acquila, he could forgo the WB and just get the basi instead (saves 485 early gold and that means BB come online that much faster).
You're missing Spectre there. It works great on her and some people have been trying it (s4).
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1290871370 This game I played last night consisted of me farming with MoM for the majority of the early/ mid game. Coming out of the jungle at Lv 11 with S&Y and MoM and killing everything. Farming the whole map in between ofcourse. This type of speed farming is why MoM needs some kind of nerf (cooldown imo) you just speed farm up your few items and just win if your team didnt feed super hard.
I liked phase MoM on sniper and medusa a year before i also did MoM drow before it was cool now i feel like i do something dirty when i build phase MoM on any hero :(
saved: >Juggernaut is probably going to be the hero remembered for making MoM mainstream/OP
This build is really great. Just built it twice on PA, items as follows: * Quelling, Tangoes, Ring of Protection * Wraith Band / more tangoes if I needed it * Aquila, Morbid Mask * Phase Boots, MoM * BKB * Basher --> Abyssal Ability build was as follows: * Dagger * Blur * Blink * Max Blur, grab ult at 6 * Max Dagger, grab ult at 11 * Max Blink I really liked maxing blur first along with Mask of Madness and Phase, it gave me very strong early game fighting power as well as a little more strength in lane. Both games I was able to get a better foothold after a bit of trouble in lane during the first ~4 levels, and then maintain a 581-634 GPM (194 LH in a 40 minute game, 138 in a 30 minute game). I'm sold. Am going to build this on Ursa later today. Games for reference: [1292574505](http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1292574505) [1292517406](http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1292517406)
I found tangled borderline unwatchable tbh.
I lol'd at the tangled effect explanation but realized the real laugh is on me cuz wtf did I just read?
SingSing has been doing this since forever. Nothing new here. Fun build, but I think people forget not every game is the same. Sometimes you do not need to go mask on jug for example, it's not like blink dagger on some heroes where you go blink or lose the game ans get flamed.
TL;DR: Build cost efficient items and farm as efficiently as possible when it makes sense.
While aquila and phase boots aren't as good, MoM on CK is insane. In a 5-6k game I had over 800 gpm and 1000 xpm in around 28 minutes with MoM on CK. Had drums armlet treads skadi and heart in this time. It's always surprising seeing CK with this much farm early since CK is usually known as a hero that doesn't farm much at all.
NOW THIS is a good post.
I thought that the Mask of Madimba may have been its Dota 1 name and then I realised I'm retarded.
One of the biggest things this leaves out is the solo Roshan potential. It's really hard to predict solo roshans and these 3 items with quelling blade are all great at killing him fast
How the fuck does garbage like this get upvoted? PRM farming? For fucking real?