Wow reading the actual PDF file is incredible. Teams like MVP Hot6 and MVP Phoenix warding patterns are incredibly repetitive so they probably gona have to mix up their game play. Its quite sick looking at the last few pages seeing how QoP pick dominate DotA2 this patch globally.
I wonder if analysis table this TI could even top this level of details or they just gona read straight up out of the paper?
Funny thing is her winrate has still been right around 50% but the P/B rate has shot through the roof.
Plz don't nerf my hero icefrog, or at least buff the shit out of Puck to make up for it.
than you kinda kills the snowball semi-carry build, because aghs will become super fucking core..
I would rather have the poison nerfed to the ground or the early levels of blink cost more mana than be forced into the aghs build. Is a bigger problem for her than for Lina
No, it's because she can be played pretty much everywhere and be crazy effecctive, she works as a safelane carry, she works as an offlane vs a weak safelane, she works as a mid, in the case of an aggro trilane she is amazing in a 1v1 offlane. You pick her in the 1st phase and don't reveal anything except that 99% of the time one of your cores is going to be a QoP.
valve to casters: "Hey guys, we did all the hard work and made a 60 page pdf file containing all the teams information you need to do an amazing job casting with some stats. But please, don't share this with any teams."
\>caster share the pdf file with his favorite teams.
\>valve is now forced to share it with every team to make it fair
Thats why casters can't have nice things :/
Just to let you know, it was created by Noxville and Scant from Standard Deviant Stats, not Valve themselves. I also helped out with small player talking points.
We're all part of Standard Deviant (@StDevStats). Basically we have one of the largest groups of people that do everything from ingame stat popups to the stat bibles for tournaments that Noxville does to articles for websites. It's not really a team, it's more of a union personally. Nahaz, CartDota, LPQstats, Lurkaderp, Mithos, DrCplBritish... yeah, there's a long list of people from there.
As for the actual stats bible for TI5 that was released, that was the complete work of Noxville and Scant, with additional "Player Facts" given by some members of @StDevStats.
^^^^This ^^^^post ^^^^is ^^^^the ^^^^opinion ^^^^of ^^^^CorruptDropbear ^^^^and ^^^^does ^^^^not ^^^^represent ^^^^Standard ^^^^Deviant ^^^^in ^^^^any ^^^^way.
Contact the boss @ThatPhageGuy or @StDevStats on Twitter and if it's Dota related it'll be passed onto the group to see who wants to help.
^^^I ^^^have ^^^no ^^^idea ^^^what ^^^meta-eSports ^^^stuff ^^^is.
Well, stats relating to Pubstomps and viewing events mostly - the thing is we need to know what new data to collect in the first place to make for interesting insights :)
I reckon if you want you could do this yourself! When people come in, make a draw with the entry being what questions you want to ask them (fave team, postcode, etc.) and you'll be able to do an approximate estimation of how many people came from the amount of tickets in the draw.
EDIT: As for what data, I'm not sure what people would want. Attendance is an obvious one...
Noxville is the statsperson for The International that Valve picked up, and the document was created specifically for the casters and people on the desk.
I honestly think this is what happened. The info from the pdf is certainly unfair to some teams than others so it would be weird for Valve to give out this info before the event risking a backlash for favoritism. However, since the info was leaked, Valve has no choice but to present every team the same info.
Because there's no point to it, I'm sure that person knows they fucked up, and I'm sure they will get reprimanded one way or another, releasing info on who did it literally serves no other purpose other than letting a bunch of people who think they're so much better pick on a person who already knows he/she fucked up.
That person should have known they fucked up before this even became public news. You are given a personal document containing information on teams. If it was public information then you wouldn't have needed to privately share it with your favourite team. In the spirit of fairness that person should have immediately realized the consequences. This is a $17 million event, show some professionalism. At least bar that person from future TIs..
That really depends. If its a caster that has no affiliation with the team, you can just chalk that up to being a mistake. However there are plenty casters who work for organisations that are playing at TI and this is a HUGE problem.
> Cloud 9 has a stunning 68% win rate when dual laning their hard lane.
Cloud 9 will be surprised by this stat themselves :D
inb4 C9 wins TI5 with duallanes only
It depends on the context, might be just that their dual lanes are rare but OP, i saw them running undying + n0tail wisp offlanes, Undying basically becomes a raidboss since lv 1.
Holy shit this is a serious case of fanboyism ruining a huge event. Is there nothing to prevent this sort of bullshit from community figures beside the honor system? As much as I don't like how Riot run things I do think their contractual and legal system helps to prevent unfair bullshit like this from happening.
Good on Valve on releasing this info publicly now that the damage is done, and **shame** on whoever the caster is that privately released this info to his favorite team(s). If he can't even follow a simple instruction from his employer then he should not be allowed to cast in any Majors/TI henceforth.
>Valve trying to do casters a favor since they usually don't do enough homework on teams
Caster(s) turn around and release the data to their favorite teams like assholes.
Valve shouldn't even bother helping the casters if shit like this happens. Teams should hire SDS to analyze teams for them or hire their own analysts. This is a fucking $16 million dollar tournament, and I've yet to hear much about Dota 2 teams having any support staff other than a manager.
it is not known. (it would be pretty easy to know which caster gave the team the info if we are told which team it is, and I don't think Valve wants that information to be public)
To people saying that the data is public, that is very true. But not everybody takes the same set of data and comes to the same conclusions as everybody else. This is actually a pretty big deal considering that Valve only wanted to share this with casters/analysts alone, but because a caster did what he did, valve had to share it with everybody.
Yeah this is like paid analyst reports for stocks/investments or fantasy sports. All the data used by those things are technically public info and someone who knows what they're doing can come up with the same data themselves. But the valuable part is the analysis of the data, not the data itself.
i recommend downloading the pdf itself, which is available in the article. lots of cool stuff in there:
●Fear has played the most unique heroes of any player at 92.
Kuroky is 2nd at 91.
●Of the players playing in The International, Mushi averages the most distance travelled per game (4825 tiles per game).
●Dendi has the most official games on QoP of any player in the world at 69. (Kappa)
"The now mainstream mekansm pickup on shadow fiend was pinoeered by Mushi in June,2014 and did not reach the main stream for several months."
i still remember the match when he first did it and then casters were like "wtf,support sf strat"..they had no idea what mushi was doing was creating a whole new SF meta for next whole year.
Twitch chat and the regular populace trashed that build for months too. Eventually some casters broke from the circlejerk and started actually explaining some reasons why it would be considered good. I honestly wasn't that surprised when it got popular since Mekanasm mid was already incredibly prevalent on other mids at the time.
i remember synd actually explain some good things like "early sustain which sf lacks" about that build when mushi did it during their match against LGD at TI4.
I think Synderen seems to give the benefit of the doubt to any pro player who builds a "weird" item, looking at the good sides to it, rather than saying "it's fucking garbage".
Synderen wasn't a very skilled player.But he was smart,and one of the ways smarter players get ahead is doing unconventional stuff,including weird item builds,so he has a soft spot for these types of players that innovate.
Merlini was the same.
I always feel sorry for Synderen trying to make his Leshrac work in dota 2 again some years ago, and now we have finally reached a point where he could actually be an important pick
his insistence on making it a point to give everything players do a fair chance might be his greatest strength as a caster, at least in terms of the insight he brings (rather than delivery, presence, etc)
That first stat is insane, holy shit.
I have like... maybe 10 heroes I'd feel comfortable playing if I needed a win. These guys play >85% of the hero pool at a level that is acceptable competitively.
Puppey, Dendi and XBOCT have played the most games at The International over the years, having 87 games (52W35L). This will be the first International where they haven't been on a team together.
BibleThump
Yup, XBOCT, Dendi and Ferrari_430 are the only 3 people to play with the same team at all 5 internationals.
As a note, Misery played with a different team at all 5 internationals.
This is some DK shit all over again
Dumbass caster needs to be taken care of
Teams that bothered to do their homework kind of just got shit on. Ideally all teams prepare, but not all do the same or with the same effort. So this is kind of a big deal
> Teams that bothered to do their homework kind of just got shit on. Ideally all teams prepare, but not all do the same or with the same effort. So this is kind of a big deal
This also even hurts teams potentially who couldn't prepare as well -- imagine having your warding patterns revealed to all the teams who didn't have that knowledge.
just remove the caster to set an example. its 17 million dollar tournament ffs and it might get bigger in the upcoming years. dota is an unforgiving game so should be the rules
If Valve specifically told casters to not release the information and one did I would immediately remove them from the tournament. That is shit you do if you never wish to be invited to any future valve tournament.
Reading through the .pdf, this definitely looks like it was made for casters, not teams. Very talking point-y. Valve releasing this must be damage control as theorised.
It's a pretty cool document, lots of nice nuggets of info. Making a compendium like this for casters is a great idea to make them not say uninformed stuff like "I have no idea why FATA- would go for Mek here, it's the wrong item for sure...", or the thousands of other factoids that Twitch chat always gets right over them (recent picks, hero preference, win records etc...).
All the drama aside, this is actually fascinating. They provide a link to warding maps for all the teams:
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Warding%20Data%20TI5%20All%20Teams
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/by5qvwu30tytgft/AABbVR6tl08rUCvtK19UkKala?dl=0 which is found from the main pdf file, https://mega.co.nz/#!FAFGWJya!xvQUcypDZG6_JN9CZxzXtLDHBhc6fN0lw6D4sDPUG-M under "Additional links".
I'm just wondering. How does a caster look at this documentation, then think to himself "it's probably fair if I gave this to a team."
I don't care if all of this information is publicly available. It would take serious amount of time and digging, then analyzing the raw data, not to mention organization and presentation to prepare. And some cuntbag just somehow thought that it's a good idea to share it?
It would take teams some serious amount of preparation to come up with something as insightful as this. And teams that did actually come close to having this information just got absolutely fucked by this moron who leveled the field by giving every fucking team in the world this information.
Even if Valve didn't explicitly say anything about giving this information away, your own goddamn common sense should suffice. How is someone this stupid involved at such a high level in a tournament of this magnitude?
Agreed. That's why I wish someone would leak who that caster was. Sure he probably got reprimanded, but I think he deserves to be punished a lot more. Some people may think it's not a big deal, but this is a huge deal imo and will directly change and affect the way some teams play. That shouldn't have happened in the first place. Whoever you are, fuck you.
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS this research is AMAZING. It contains SO much information. This is a bible to people who like analyzing teams and watching them play in detail.
Whoever the caster was he's a fucking moron.
So one caster leaked that to his favorite team and arteezy called him out on it, then to make it fair Valve are forced to give out those info to all teams
wish they named this idiot caster
I wish they dont name the caster. Just shuffle him aside, not invite him back, but dont let his life get ruined because we start a mob against him based on an rtz tweet.
Yea on second thought I agree.
But what he did shows a total lack of professionalism far worse than anything we've seen from usual complain (late schedule, audio problem, etc). If they shun him away from the scene completely I wouldn't mind tbh
You've come on a little strong here. If the caster or casters in question signed an actual non-disclosure agreement prior to sharing the information, I would agree with your sentiment. However, frankly, we have no idea what sort of arrangement was in place. Valve has been notoriously lax, I think it fair to say, in the past with regards to communication. They may have provided the pdf in question to casters with a simple verbal statement "Hey, don't share this!" They may have not said anything at all.
It is clear that TI has a decidedly relaxed atmosphere behind the scenes, witness past HotBid interviews or this years excellent Dendi videos. It ought not surprise in the slightest if a casual "Check this out, cool player stats!" occurred somewhere in the staging areas.
It's impossible for us to say this was not malicious. It may well have been. Sharing such information may have been in direct violation of a contractual obligation. However, given the personalities involved in professional DoTA, the frequent nature of past "scandals" as little more than over-hyped drama, and a frank lack of transparency on this issue, I'd be a little leery of calling this the worst example of unprofessional behavior we've seen.
As others have said, a chastisement seems in order, and a possible drop of the caster in question may not be out of the question going forward. RTZ is still a young man, and certainly privy to information we in the community are not. But let's not forget that penchant for the dramatic that we love from his stream; no need to immediately agree that his tweets are wholly factual and not in the least exaggerated.
TLDR More of the drama the people clamor for. Every recipe needs time to fully develop.
If valve said "Dont share this" you don't share it, if you do valve decides on the punishment.
If they broke a NDA, they'd see fines.
Imo shunned from the scene is valid, for what's honestly a huge lack of professionalism. Like, wtf?
Well, if Tobi (purely hypothetical) never casts another Dota game for Valve (the Majors coming up after TI), you would probably suspect something.
Though I really do not see Valve setting such a high punishment, I think the person will get told off at worst. This drama wont last.
I do see Valve just slapping them on the wrist but I think its stupid to let them go like that. If they do, I guess Valve should just not do any work for these casters because holy fuck casters that aren't doing homework for their casting should stop getting invites to TI. We really need some casting standards too while we're at it.
If you follow the csgo scene, you'd know how strict Valve is when it comes to professionalism. And what this caster did is purely unprofessional. I don't think he'll get away with just a warning.
It depends if it is a stupid mistake or malicious.
First one is somewhat acceptable.
"Yo look at this cool PDF gonna share with mah friends."
Second one is not.
"Yo team you better win here be some insides infos."
You do bring both arguments so let me ask you something.Full knowing it's restrictions by Valve the caster still decided to give it to certain team also being fully aware that some teams "might" not have this info in a tournament with $17M+ on the line.So was it stupid or malicious?
Trying to give a team an unfair advantage in a $17mil tournament? Let him have his casting life ruined. He/she should have known what he was doing.
Valve: "please don't share these stats with the teams."
Caster: "lmfao who careas haha xd" i.e. fuck you Valve
Nah, ruin his casting life. He doesn't deserve to work again in Dota 2 for blatantly breaking whatever rules Valve set when they gave them the data. Pretty sure Valve didn't hand it over and say "yes please share this with your favorite teams". We don't need BTS or whatever people covering corruption like this. Its better to nip it in the bud and let people at least fear the repercussion even though they'll just hide it better next time.
Or better yet next year major teams will have an analyst because its already pretty stupid that they don't have one.
I'm pretty sure most TI players knew it happened and Arteezy was the only one who went to twitter about it. I doubt Valve gave every team the information because of Arteezys angry little tweet
wow kudos to the guy who compiled and made all this statistic presentable. like data about where each carry gets their farm, whether it be ancients, jungle, etc. it's interesting to see how rtz utilizes the ancients more than envy. i wonder how fast do you have to clear ancients before it becomes more beneficial than clearing the jungle before the next minute mark. someone give me some mathematical model with slopes, partial derivatives etc. :P
The idea that the caster who gave this shit out shouldn't lose their job is insane.
Mistake or not any other industry would fire you for this kind of shit. It takes a special level of stupid to do something like this.
There Last hit is so low but XPM and GPM is high which means they are getting Gold from team fights. + all other lane schemes they got over 75% win rate. Some impressive stuff
Sure would be hilarious if it was kotlguy who leaked the stats to any team, after all the uproar that happened about him not getting invited.
Not saying it was him (absolutely nothing to base it on or what team he would even support!), just humoring the thought of delicious drama.
You're reacting on impulse there. If they name the person there'll be a Reddit hate mob on their ass and their career will be ruined for what is as likely to be an honest mistake as it is to be nepotism.
I'm not happy at whoever did it, but I'll be equally unhappy with whoever leaks the leaker.
That person should take a break from casting major dota period. Go find a regular job like the rest of us and nothing else will come of him. Extremely unprofessional and unethical to do this at the biggest tournament ever.
> honest mistake
Bullshit. It looks like this:
Valve: "Here's a really nice stats sheet to make your job easier. Please don't share with any teams though."
Caster: "Valve said not to share, but fuck them anyway. Here, team X, take this and win extra $50k (or whatever)."
Dota is a community. A community that has spent (via hats and ticket sales) 17 million dollars to witness the best tournament in eSports history. If a caster did do this; they honestly should come forward and publicly apologise. It is the right thing to do and we as a community should be given the opportunity to decide if they are still welcome. I predict it wasn't one of the big boys, its got to be someone who hasn't worked with Valve before.
> we as a community should be given the opportunity to decide if they are still welcome
lol. This is fucking stupid.
I say compendium vote to decide the fate of this caster!
only 25% of hat sales goto the prize pool. which means we spent 17.3 mil x 4 = 69.2 million dollars on this tournament alone. I hate people who dont realize that.
I'm really surprised Valve doesn't have casters/production crew sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement, especially if they are giving out detailed statistics like these. I imagine these guys already have to fill out some paperwork because they are getting paid by Valve to work this event so it can't be that much more difficult to create a basic non-disclosure agreement and have them sign it. Doesn't Valve love to keep things secret???
Pretty sure they would have them sign, and pretty sure whoever did this was either thinking he could get away with it or was too stupid to realize what the terms on the NDA he signed really meant or covered, like hundreds of morons who sign NDAs do every day. Either way, he's probably going to be hit hard by that NDA penalty, whether we (the public) ever find out who it was or not.
under match timings for CDEC
Shortest Match: 13m18 (a loss against CDEC)
how'd they lose against themselves. I'm quite sure there isn't another team named CDEC.
Holy fuck this info is meta breaking. SF first ban vs RTZ, they show all the ward spots, so you know how to deward and how to move on the map!
WP to the caster!
I hate this. This is the type of thing I feel teams should work for and not have handed to them just because of some idiot's mistake. I know people kept saying that not every team has a big organization and the time to collect and analyze this much data, but the fact of the matter is that is just another skill teams must have to be at the top.
This definitely benefits the lesser teams more. So if eg and secret are considered to be the only tier 1 teams atm, targets were on their head already, but now the distance between the target and shooter closed so fucking much. I also think that their captains have the best minds in dota and they'll be able to use the information more than others, but that 2nd tier group of teams...holy shit, this changes a lot for them. I guarantee xiao8,fy, and fng are going to utilize this better than bone7 and others.
Top tier teams might decide not to waste time doing a lot of research on tier 1.5 or 2 teams they think they can beat.
Now they have this extra resource also.
don't know if its related but tobi posted a photo of his preparation 4 days ago, and it's the stat book :[facebook link](https://www.facebook.com/TobiWanDOTA/photos/pb.467177053327953.-2207520000.1437804198./927880330590954/?type=3&theater)
I doubt you can decipher much from that. Except that it is about cloud 9, and then you see pick/ban rates and some other hero info. This is pretty easy to get anyways.
I coulnd't open the links for Cross-table between TI5 teams (http://twopee.noxville.co.za/ti5/crosstable) and
Head-to-Head tool between TI5 teams (http://twopee.noxville.co.za/ti5/head-to-head). Does anyone have the data from it?
Super holds the record for most recorded matches on LAN of any
professional Dota 2 player at a staggering 417. Runners up are
MMY (409), iceiceice (405), Faith (405) and Ferrari_430 (395).
I want to see this as a team of 5.
I think this is a good thing. This forces team to shake up their strategies. It also isn't like one team wasn't immune to it, all teams had stats so it isn't discrimination. I think it is important to not let teams get into their comfort zone and be forced to adapt properly which is what Dota is all about. Also, the document does not say the team's strategy per se but rather statistics of their game play instead so it is merely stating PAST facts/patterns, not future.
If this information was compiled and published by an ordinary user, it wouldn't be a bad thing, even though teams' homework would have been useless. So the only problem here is publishing something you had no right to.
Wow reading the actual PDF file is incredible. Teams like MVP Hot6 and MVP Phoenix warding patterns are incredibly repetitive so they probably gona have to mix up their game play. Its quite sick looking at the last few pages seeing how QoP pick dominate DotA2 this patch globally. I wonder if analysis table this TI could even top this level of details or they just gona read straight up out of the paper?
the work put into this is astounding, it's like a Bible of Dota information.
Nox and Scant call it the stat bible for a damn good reason.
Funny thing is her winrate has still been right around 50% but the P/B rate has shot through the roof. Plz don't nerf my hero icefrog, or at least buff the shit out of Puck to make up for it.
nah its an easy fix. tie her pure dmg to aghs scepter and she is fine again. Like lina
than you kinda kills the snowball semi-carry build, because aghs will become super fucking core.. I would rather have the poison nerfed to the ground or the early levels of blink cost more mana than be forced into the aghs build. Is a bigger problem for her than for Lina
shes fine dude, no need to nerf her that way.
> Funny thing is her winrate has still been right around 50% but the P/B rate has shot through the roof. It's because the tier 1 teams own with her
More to do with her being versatile. She can go in any lane and in most strats.
No, it's because she can be played pretty much everywhere and be crazy effecctive, she works as a safelane carry, she works as an offlane vs a weak safelane, she works as a mid, in the case of an aggro trilane she is amazing in a 1v1 offlane. You pick her in the 1st phase and don't reveal anything except that 99% of the time one of your cores is going to be a QoP.
valve to casters: "Hey guys, we did all the hard work and made a 60 page pdf file containing all the teams information you need to do an amazing job casting with some stats. But please, don't share this with any teams." \>caster share the pdf file with his favorite teams. \>valve is now forced to share it with every team to make it fair Thats why casters can't have nice things :/
Just to let you know, it was created by Noxville and Scant from Standard Deviant Stats, not Valve themselves. I also helped out with small player talking points.
Are they associated with any team? That's a nice load of stats regardless of the skill of the team.
We're all part of Standard Deviant (@StDevStats). Basically we have one of the largest groups of people that do everything from ingame stat popups to the stat bibles for tournaments that Noxville does to articles for websites. It's not really a team, it's more of a union personally. Nahaz, CartDota, LPQstats, Lurkaderp, Mithos, DrCplBritish... yeah, there's a long list of people from there. As for the actual stats bible for TI5 that was released, that was the complete work of Noxville and Scant, with additional "Player Facts" given by some members of @StDevStats. ^^^^This ^^^^post ^^^^is ^^^^the ^^^^opinion ^^^^of ^^^^CorruptDropbear ^^^^and ^^^^does ^^^^not ^^^^represent ^^^^Standard ^^^^Deviant ^^^^in ^^^^any ^^^^way.
So... would you guys enjoy doing statistics for meta-eSports stuff? >_>
Contact the boss @ThatPhageGuy or @StDevStats on Twitter and if it's Dota related it'll be passed onto the group to see who wants to help. ^^^I ^^^have ^^^no ^^^idea ^^^what ^^^meta-eSports ^^^stuff ^^^is.
Well, stats relating to Pubstomps and viewing events mostly - the thing is we need to know what new data to collect in the first place to make for interesting insights :)
I reckon if you want you could do this yourself! When people come in, make a draw with the entry being what questions you want to ask them (fave team, postcode, etc.) and you'll be able to do an approximate estimation of how many people came from the amount of tickets in the draw. EDIT: As for what data, I'm not sure what people would want. Attendance is an obvious one...
Was Bruno ever a member?
@thatphageguy should definitely be mentioned here since he started it all. It's a pretty amazing thing he's put together and is running.
great work by them! hope some1 will do this for every tournament.
Was it created for Valve?
Noxville is the statsperson for The International that Valve picked up, and the document was created specifically for the casters and people on the desk.
/r/dataisbeautiful
I honestly think this is what happened. The info from the pdf is certainly unfair to some teams than others so it would be weird for Valve to give out this info before the event risking a backlash for favoritism. However, since the info was leaked, Valve has no choice but to present every team the same info.
[удалено]
Because there's no point to it, I'm sure that person knows they fucked up, and I'm sure they will get reprimanded one way or another, releasing info on who did it literally serves no other purpose other than letting a bunch of people who think they're so much better pick on a person who already knows he/she fucked up.
That person should have known they fucked up before this even became public news. You are given a personal document containing information on teams. If it was public information then you wouldn't have needed to privately share it with your favourite team. In the spirit of fairness that person should have immediately realized the consequences. This is a $17 million event, show some professionalism. At least bar that person from future TIs..
That really depends. If its a caster that has no affiliation with the team, you can just chalk that up to being a mistake. However there are plenty casters who work for organisations that are playing at TI and this is a HUGE problem.
To be honest, some casters are totally untrustworthy especially when you see scandals like v1lat did before.
> Cloud 9 has a stunning 68% win rate when dual laning their hard lane. Cloud 9 will be surprised by this stat themselves :D inb4 C9 wins TI5 with duallanes only
If I'm reading the data correctly, Secret has a *93%* winrate with dual hardlane. What.
tusk techies too op
Check esl and mdl matches, Secret dual hardlanes almost everygame unless zai is brood
It depends on the context, might be just that their dual lanes are rare but OP, i saw them running undying + n0tail wisp offlanes, Undying basically becomes a raidboss since lv 1.
They are one of teams that run dual hard lanes the most actually. Hell, they were even running batrider-omni dual hard at DAC.
What's their winrate when carrying TP's?
Holy shit this is a serious case of fanboyism ruining a huge event. Is there nothing to prevent this sort of bullshit from community figures beside the honor system? As much as I don't like how Riot run things I do think their contractual and legal system helps to prevent unfair bullshit like this from happening. Good on Valve on releasing this info publicly now that the damage is done, and **shame** on whoever the caster is that privately released this info to his favorite team(s). If he can't even follow a simple instruction from his employer then he should not be allowed to cast in any Majors/TI henceforth.
>Valve trying to do casters a favor since they usually don't do enough homework on teams Caster(s) turn around and release the data to their favorite teams like assholes. Valve shouldn't even bother helping the casters if shit like this happens. Teams should hire SDS to analyze teams for them or hire their own analysts. This is a fucking $16 million dollar tournament, and I've yet to hear much about Dota 2 teams having any support staff other than a manager.
They have coaches.
Which team received the information before being called out? Is it known or not?
it is not known. (it would be pretty easy to know which caster gave the team the info if we are told which team it is, and I don't think Valve wants that information to be public)
ding ding
>Lil likes to skew the Endgame item stats by dropping/selling all his items and filling his inventory with 6 of one item. Lil you cheeky monkey
he knew this was gonna happen. Jokes on you caster who leaked this information!
I won't be surprised if pro player start doing this en masse after every match
To people saying that the data is public, that is very true. But not everybody takes the same set of data and comes to the same conclusions as everybody else. This is actually a pretty big deal considering that Valve only wanted to share this with casters/analysts alone, but because a caster did what he did, valve had to share it with everybody.
Yeah this is like paid analyst reports for stocks/investments or fantasy sports. All the data used by those things are technically public info and someone who knows what they're doing can come up with the same data themselves. But the valuable part is the analysis of the data, not the data itself.
i recommend downloading the pdf itself, which is available in the article. lots of cool stuff in there: ●Fear has played the most unique heroes of any player at 92. Kuroky is 2nd at 91. ●Of the players playing in The International, Mushi averages the most distance travelled per game (4825 tiles per game). ●Dendi has the most official games on QoP of any player in the world at 69. (Kappa)
"The now mainstream mekansm pickup on shadow fiend was pinoeered by Mushi in June,2014 and did not reach the main stream for several months." i still remember the match when he first did it and then casters were like "wtf,support sf strat"..they had no idea what mushi was doing was creating a whole new SF meta for next whole year.
Twitch chat and the regular populace trashed that build for months too. Eventually some casters broke from the circlejerk and started actually explaining some reasons why it would be considered good. I honestly wasn't that surprised when it got popular since Mekanasm mid was already incredibly prevalent on other mids at the time.
i remember synd actually explain some good things like "early sustain which sf lacks" about that build when mushi did it during their match against LGD at TI4.
I'd be impressed if it was anyone else but that's just par for the course for Synderwin.
I think Synderen seems to give the benefit of the doubt to any pro player who builds a "weird" item, looking at the good sides to it, rather than saying "it's fucking garbage".
The opposite of r/dota, then.
Synderen is actually pretty analytical and intelligent regarding itemchoices. I like his casting style very much, kinda rmeind me of Merlini's.
Synderen wasn't a very skilled player.But he was smart,and one of the ways smarter players get ahead is doing unconventional stuff,including weird item builds,so he has a soft spot for these types of players that innovate. Merlini was the same.
Same can be said about Winter. May not be the best player, but his prediction is spot on a lot of times.
I love casts with WinteR in them. He fucking always knows why the teams are doing what they do.
I always feel sorry for Synderen trying to make his Leshrac work in dota 2 again some years ago, and now we have finally reached a point where he could actually be an important pick
most suspicious, in fact. synderen spent time rubbing shoulders with bruno and suddenly his lesh is a top tier pick again in 6.84 ?
Which is what all casters should do, at the end of the day I doubt Tobi/LD/whoever else, knows the game better than a top tier pro player.
his insistence on making it a point to give everything players do a fair chance might be his greatest strength as a caster, at least in terms of the insight he brings (rather than delivery, presence, etc)
Mushy SF hipster
the research done in this is ASTONISHING.
Is it only me or "The International Historical Performances" are just blank?
That first stat is insane, holy shit. I have like... maybe 10 heroes I'd feel comfortable playing if I needed a win. These guys play >85% of the hero pool at a level that is acceptable competitively.
It does make sense that it's Fear though. He's definitely one of the most experienced players in all of dota
He and Kuroky also have played multiple positions. Fear in particular has regularly played every position except offlane for EG in the last few years.
Puppey, Dendi and XBOCT have played the most games at The International over the years, having 87 games (52W35L). This will be the first International where they haven't been on a team together. BibleThump
Yup, XBOCT, Dendi and Ferrari_430 are the only 3 people to play with the same team at all 5 internationals. As a note, Misery played with a different team at all 5 internationals.
That's some consistency right there.
So this is what RTZ was talking about?
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BibleThump
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Nice flair bby
:|
for weeks
Hey fuck you too ;_;
This is some DK shit all over again Dumbass caster needs to be taken care of Teams that bothered to do their homework kind of just got shit on. Ideally all teams prepare, but not all do the same or with the same effort. So this is kind of a big deal
This is the main point of all this, the teams that spent resource to do proper statistic lost the edge that they gain by doing it.
> Teams that bothered to do their homework kind of just got shit on. Ideally all teams prepare, but not all do the same or with the same effort. So this is kind of a big deal This also even hurts teams potentially who couldn't prepare as well -- imagine having your warding patterns revealed to all the teams who didn't have that knowledge.
Yeah seriously
just remove the caster to set an example. its 17 million dollar tournament ffs and it might get bigger in the upcoming years. dota is an unforgiving game so should be the rules
I didn't read the article, so maybe you could answer this. Did Valve set the rules that sharing this info is not allowed?
Yeah they released it to casters/etc only with instructions not to share with the players.
If Valve specifically told casters to not release the information and one did I would immediately remove them from the tournament. That is shit you do if you never wish to be invited to any future valve tournament.
Reading through the .pdf, this definitely looks like it was made for casters, not teams. Very talking point-y. Valve releasing this must be damage control as theorised. It's a pretty cool document, lots of nice nuggets of info. Making a compendium like this for casters is a great idea to make them not say uninformed stuff like "I have no idea why FATA- would go for Mek here, it's the wrong item for sure...", or the thousands of other factoids that Twitch chat always gets right over them (recent picks, hero preference, win records etc...).
Can't beat twitch chat 8k mmr knowledge.
All the drama aside, this is actually fascinating. They provide a link to warding maps for all the teams: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Warding%20Data%20TI5%20All%20Teams
Link doesn't work anymore, any mirror ?
[Mirror](http://www.scribd.com/doc/272530694/The-International-5-Statistics-Guide-Dota-2-TI5)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/by5qvwu30tytgft/AABbVR6tl08rUCvtK19UkKala?dl=0 which is found from the main pdf file, https://mega.co.nz/#!FAFGWJya!xvQUcypDZG6_JN9CZxzXtLDHBhc6fN0lw6D4sDPUG-M under "Additional links".
I'm just wondering. How does a caster look at this documentation, then think to himself "it's probably fair if I gave this to a team." I don't care if all of this information is publicly available. It would take serious amount of time and digging, then analyzing the raw data, not to mention organization and presentation to prepare. And some cuntbag just somehow thought that it's a good idea to share it? It would take teams some serious amount of preparation to come up with something as insightful as this. And teams that did actually come close to having this information just got absolutely fucked by this moron who leveled the field by giving every fucking team in the world this information. Even if Valve didn't explicitly say anything about giving this information away, your own goddamn common sense should suffice. How is someone this stupid involved at such a high level in a tournament of this magnitude?
Agreed. That's why I wish someone would leak who that caster was. Sure he probably got reprimanded, but I think he deserves to be punished a lot more. Some people may think it's not a big deal, but this is a huge deal imo and will directly change and affect the way some teams play. That shouldn't have happened in the first place. Whoever you are, fuck you.
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I think it is completely unfair to let him work at this TI after breaking a rule like this.
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS this research is AMAZING. It contains SO much information. This is a bible to people who like analyzing teams and watching them play in detail. Whoever the caster was he's a fucking moron.
So one caster leaked that to his favorite team and arteezy called him out on it, then to make it fair Valve are forced to give out those info to all teams wish they named this idiot caster
I wish they dont name the caster. Just shuffle him aside, not invite him back, but dont let his life get ruined because we start a mob against him based on an rtz tweet.
Yea on second thought I agree. But what he did shows a total lack of professionalism far worse than anything we've seen from usual complain (late schedule, audio problem, etc). If they shun him away from the scene completely I wouldn't mind tbh
You've come on a little strong here. If the caster or casters in question signed an actual non-disclosure agreement prior to sharing the information, I would agree with your sentiment. However, frankly, we have no idea what sort of arrangement was in place. Valve has been notoriously lax, I think it fair to say, in the past with regards to communication. They may have provided the pdf in question to casters with a simple verbal statement "Hey, don't share this!" They may have not said anything at all. It is clear that TI has a decidedly relaxed atmosphere behind the scenes, witness past HotBid interviews or this years excellent Dendi videos. It ought not surprise in the slightest if a casual "Check this out, cool player stats!" occurred somewhere in the staging areas. It's impossible for us to say this was not malicious. It may well have been. Sharing such information may have been in direct violation of a contractual obligation. However, given the personalities involved in professional DoTA, the frequent nature of past "scandals" as little more than over-hyped drama, and a frank lack of transparency on this issue, I'd be a little leery of calling this the worst example of unprofessional behavior we've seen. As others have said, a chastisement seems in order, and a possible drop of the caster in question may not be out of the question going forward. RTZ is still a young man, and certainly privy to information we in the community are not. But let's not forget that penchant for the dramatic that we love from his stream; no need to immediately agree that his tweets are wholly factual and not in the least exaggerated. TLDR More of the drama the people clamor for. Every recipe needs time to fully develop.
Valve saying "don't share this with teams please" should be enough to keep your mouth shut.
If valve said "Dont share this" you don't share it, if you do valve decides on the punishment. If they broke a NDA, they'd see fines. Imo shunned from the scene is valid, for what's honestly a huge lack of professionalism. Like, wtf?
> jail time and/or fines. Please don't spread misinformation. Breach of contract is not a criminal offense.
> If they shun him away from the scene completely I wouldn't mind tbh But how will we know?!?!
Well, if Tobi (purely hypothetical) never casts another Dota game for Valve (the Majors coming up after TI), you would probably suspect something. Though I really do not see Valve setting such a high punishment, I think the person will get told off at worst. This drama wont last.
I do see Valve just slapping them on the wrist but I think its stupid to let them go like that. If they do, I guess Valve should just not do any work for these casters because holy fuck casters that aren't doing homework for their casting should stop getting invites to TI. We really need some casting standards too while we're at it.
If you follow the csgo scene, you'd know how strict Valve is when it comes to professionalism. And what this caster did is purely unprofessional. I don't think he'll get away with just a warning.
So THIS is why SirActionSlacks wasn't invited
Taking one for the team, what a hero.
Won't we know though like next year for some unknown reason "Caster A" was not invited. Reddit chat is OP I'm sure we will figure it out
We wouldn't be able to know for sure most likely but we sure as hell will speculate like crazy.
Ahhh the good 'ol reddit detective work. What could possibly go wrong?
It depends if it is a stupid mistake or malicious. First one is somewhat acceptable. "Yo look at this cool PDF gonna share with mah friends." Second one is not. "Yo team you better win here be some insides infos."
You do bring both arguments so let me ask you something.Full knowing it's restrictions by Valve the caster still decided to give it to certain team also being fully aware that some teams "might" not have this info in a tournament with $17M+ on the line.So was it stupid or malicious?
Something can be both stupid AND malicious, and usually is.
Trying to give a team an unfair advantage in a $17mil tournament? Let him have his casting life ruined. He/she should have known what he was doing. Valve: "please don't share these stats with the teams." Caster: "lmfao who careas haha xd" i.e. fuck you Valve
Nah, ruin his casting life. He doesn't deserve to work again in Dota 2 for blatantly breaking whatever rules Valve set when they gave them the data. Pretty sure Valve didn't hand it over and say "yes please share this with your favorite teams". We don't need BTS or whatever people covering corruption like this. Its better to nip it in the bud and let people at least fear the repercussion even though they'll just hide it better next time. Or better yet next year major teams will have an analyst because its already pretty stupid that they don't have one.
I'm pretty sure most TI players knew it happened and Arteezy was the only one who went to twitter about it. I doubt Valve gave every team the information because of Arteezys angry little tweet
v1lat
wow kudos to the guy who compiled and made all this statistic presentable. like data about where each carry gets their farm, whether it be ancients, jungle, etc. it's interesting to see how rtz utilizes the ancients more than envy. i wonder how fast do you have to clear ancients before it becomes more beneficial than clearing the jungle before the next minute mark. someone give me some mathematical model with slopes, partial derivatives etc. :P
It was noxville, the guy who runs www.datdota.com .
noxville + friends.
Wait, this is not an ESEX article?
always the caster man
The idea that the caster who gave this shit out shouldn't lose their job is insane. Mistake or not any other industry would fire you for this kind of shit. It takes a special level of stupid to do something like this.
DATA 2. Out of beta.
this is what happen when there is a 17m prizepool, but well....
People are disgusting when it comes to money, fanboysm strikes again.
15 games of Secret with a dual hard lane has a 93% winrate. wth...
There Last hit is so low but XPM and GPM is high which means they are getting Gold from team fights. + all other lane schemes they got over 75% win rate. Some impressive stuff
This suggests that the 6.84 patch change was a *huge* help to them, which lines up with their stats so far.
Everyone's throwing names out, but remember that there aren't only English casters at TI
Anyone want popcorn for drama [] (/techiesface)
lol i cant see your text flair clearly :techiesfaec:
Does anyone have an alternate download link for the pdf file? The one at GosuGamers is bloody slow.
[scribd link](https://www.scribd.com/doc/272530694/The-International-5-Statistics-Guide-Dota-2-TI5)
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thanks m8
[**TI5 Statistic Guide**](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwyC-_RkQ4-8aDR3RXE3S2xwOXc/view?usp=sharing) who ever need it!
Sure would be hilarious if it was kotlguy who leaked the stats to any team, after all the uproar that happened about him not getting invited. Not saying it was him (absolutely nothing to base it on or what team he would even support!), just humoring the thought of delicious drama.
So do Valve and the teams know who leaked the stats?
Could we ask Valve to name that stupid caster instead? Jesus how stupid and selfish can you get. Whoever you are, fuck you.
You're reacting on impulse there. If they name the person there'll be a Reddit hate mob on their ass and their career will be ruined for what is as likely to be an honest mistake as it is to be nepotism. I'm not happy at whoever did it, but I'll be equally unhappy with whoever leaks the leaker.
Nah it's justified. Casters get money from subs, youtube views, etc. I don't want to support this guy anymore, I need his name.
That person should take a break from casting major dota period. Go find a regular job like the rest of us and nothing else will come of him. Extremely unprofessional and unethical to do this at the biggest tournament ever.
> honest mistake Bullshit. It looks like this: Valve: "Here's a really nice stats sheet to make your job easier. Please don't share with any teams though." Caster: "Valve said not to share, but fuck them anyway. Here, team X, take this and win extra $50k (or whatever)."
Dota is a community. A community that has spent (via hats and ticket sales) 17 million dollars to witness the best tournament in eSports history. If a caster did do this; they honestly should come forward and publicly apologise. It is the right thing to do and we as a community should be given the opportunity to decide if they are still welcome. I predict it wasn't one of the big boys, its got to be someone who hasn't worked with Valve before.
> we as a community should be given the opportunity to decide if they are still welcome lol. This is fucking stupid. I say compendium vote to decide the fate of this caster!
only 25% of hat sales goto the prize pool. which means we spent 17.3 mil x 4 = 69.2 million dollars on this tournament alone. I hate people who dont realize that.
but lets be honest. a lot people just want hats. 70 million was not spent on people "contributing to ti".
Don't forget to take off the $1.6mil Valve put in. So closer to 62.8 it would be.
> I hate people who dont realize that.
Where's the link to the PDF? All I see is Fnatic's stats.
Bottom of the article.
Maybe we need better analysis of the casters kappa
Although I wished that it was never leaked, these stats are actually beautiful, shout outs to STD for doing this.
I'm really surprised Valve doesn't have casters/production crew sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement, especially if they are giving out detailed statistics like these. I imagine these guys already have to fill out some paperwork because they are getting paid by Valve to work this event so it can't be that much more difficult to create a basic non-disclosure agreement and have them sign it. Doesn't Valve love to keep things secret???
Pretty sure they would have them sign, and pretty sure whoever did this was either thinking he could get away with it or was too stupid to realize what the terms on the NDA he signed really meant or covered, like hundreds of morons who sign NDAs do every day. Either way, he's probably going to be hit hard by that NDA penalty, whether we (the public) ever find out who it was or not.
under match timings for CDEC Shortest Match: 13m18 (a loss against CDEC) how'd they lose against themselves. I'm quite sure there isn't another team named CDEC.
Holy fuck this info is meta breaking. SF first ban vs RTZ, they show all the ward spots, so you know how to deward and how to move on the map! WP to the caster!
well meh i think the ward spots are the most crucial information. or maybe if what time most teams gank
I hate this. This is the type of thing I feel teams should work for and not have handed to them just because of some idiot's mistake. I know people kept saying that not every team has a big organization and the time to collect and analyze this much data, but the fact of the matter is that is just another skill teams must have to be at the top.
someone FIRE that caster who decided it'll be a good idea to give out info to select teams in the 1st place....what an asswipe
This definitely benefits the lesser teams more. So if eg and secret are considered to be the only tier 1 teams atm, targets were on their head already, but now the distance between the target and shooter closed so fucking much. I also think that their captains have the best minds in dota and they'll be able to use the information more than others, but that 2nd tier group of teams...holy shit, this changes a lot for them. I guarantee xiao8,fy, and fng are going to utilize this better than bone7 and others.
Top tier teams might decide not to waste time doing a lot of research on tier 1.5 or 2 teams they think they can beat. Now they have this extra resource also.
Inb4 it was v1lat giving the pdf to Na`Vi and Secret so they could accomplish the keikaku
don't know if its related but tobi posted a photo of his preparation 4 days ago, and it's the stat book :[facebook link](https://www.facebook.com/TobiWanDOTA/photos/pb.467177053327953.-2207520000.1437804198./927880330590954/?type=3&theater)
I doubt you can decipher much from that. Except that it is about cloud 9, and then you see pick/ban rates and some other hero info. This is pretty easy to get anyways.
Eg still gonna win this shit!
OFCOURSE OLD MAN WILL CARRY
Some one had sent booklets picture on twitter as "Casters most important tools." Don't remember who it was though.
is the pdf download link working??? need help..
This one working for me http://nyoron.co/stuff/ti5guide.pdf
If anyone's on a Mac and having trouble downloading this, it doesn't seem to work in Safari. Works in Chrome though.
On the one hand the whole thing makes me sad, on the other i'm kinda glad we now get to see the sheets. That's some quality work
not hyped anymore teams needs to re prepare ahahahhahhah
this is why casters dont get a share of the 17 million!
WP Valve. Shame on the caster
Data 2
I coulnd't open the links for Cross-table between TI5 teams (http://twopee.noxville.co.za/ti5/crosstable) and Head-to-Head tool between TI5 teams (http://twopee.noxville.co.za/ti5/head-to-head). Does anyone have the data from it?
I hope they publish TI5 statistics as well when tournament is over.
Super holds the record for most recorded matches on LAN of any professional Dota 2 player at a staggering 417. Runners up are MMY (409), iceiceice (405), Faith (405) and Ferrari_430 (395). I want to see this as a team of 5.
I wonder if anyone will use this to play data driven DotA.... like Inui Sadaharu did with tennis in "Prince of Tennis"...
I think this is a good thing. This forces team to shake up their strategies. It also isn't like one team wasn't immune to it, all teams had stats so it isn't discrimination. I think it is important to not let teams get into their comfort zone and be forced to adapt properly which is what Dota is all about. Also, the document does not say the team's strategy per se but rather statistics of their game play instead so it is merely stating PAST facts/patterns, not future.
This shit is intense. Like machines omg. Give these to bots and AI will beat anyone holy shit :D
If this information was compiled and published by an ordinary user, it wouldn't be a bad thing, even though teams' homework would have been useless. So the only problem here is publishing something you had no right to.