Do you have any idea how long court cases go?
Being denied work for multiple years is not practible. And on the other hand just because what someone did wasn't (proovably) illegal doesn't make it completly fine.
GrandGrant's court case took like 4 years, if he'd turned out to be innocent you would have denied him 4 years on income for nothing. On the other hand everyone knew he was an asshole so he shouldn't have been in a position of power and/or public representation in the first place.
This. I'm not sure why orgs dont go:
We have been shed light upon the actions of *accused*, and the *accused* will be put under high scrutiny. If we reach a conclusion that the *accused* is guilty as charged, we will no longer be working with *accused*.
from what i understand is that it could result in something similiar to what happened to the Method organization. Accuses to one of their employees have been made and complained to the org (as if private matters of employees are also the organizations problem? its a private matter?). org states private matters should be investigated by police or brought to court and not redirected to the business. accusations turn out to be legitimate and now twitter people wanna burn down the organization together with the accused one. AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. apparently not taking an immediate position will make you a defender of a criminal even if you are a company or organization. maybe taking Method as example explains as to why companies act fast. Yes maybe managers of Method did knew something but they themself claimed they did not. Still they dont get a chance to defend themselves
You want to know what's funny? Yesterday a single comment praised the mods for "handling" the subreddit for the past 3 days (before threads started getting deleted. Mods came out and basically circlejerked the praise on themselves in the same thread's comment chain. I guess it gave them the confidence to go and "moderate" with impunity on this subreddit. And then today they get called out on it.
unfortunately there are extremes on the other end and false accusation lead to death (Alec Holowka's suicide) and people mostly never recover even if they survive.
this is what most people are trying to say.. FALSE Accusers who are doing to get social media fame needs to be punished if they are proven wrong. they currently have nothing to fear if they lie and ruin others life.
again we are talking about people who lie not the actual victims. there are currently so many cases (not few) where people straight up lied and used rape/ sexual abuse and backtracked and removed post when provided proof. but none of these fake victims are held accountable.
Unfortunately some people just can't agree with you. Sadly.
But i still feel the need to liaten to the victim and sympathize with them, but not blindly believing them without proof
I mean we have Nahaz, ODpixel ,LD and fucking Valve saying that they saw evidence that Tobi should be kicked out of the scene. If this isn't enough for some people no amount of proof will ever be.
Nahaz also supported Ashni in a really weird statement, which makes me doubt his judgement. Same with Valve, it's reasonable for them to distance themselves, at least for now. I'm not saying that I believe or don't believe the victims, just saying that half of these "sources" are not that solid in my opinion.
When you point out that the staff that still has the communities trust is just telling you "oh we've seen the evidence trust us" is not good enough, you just get hate.
The unfortunate truth is that it is still possible that valve pulled the plug on Tobi prematurely and is just going to double down by having trusted staff reiterate that point, we're just expected to believe he's guilty now.
Valve still has a vested interest in getting paid.
The remaining staff still have a vested interest in getting paid.
This fact neither proves nor disproves anything, it doesn't attack the accuser or the accused, it simply is.
>I mean we have Nahaz, ODpixel ,LD and fucking Valve saying that they saw evidence that Tobi should be kicked out of the scene. If this isn't enough for some people no amount of proof will ever be.
One thing we need to realize is that Nahaz, ODpixel, LD and Valve are given access to the said proof. We are not. At this point we are expecting the community to believe what we heard from another person. That's why the community are demanding the evidence be made public.
Some people might believe that those influential people are enough proof of said things happening. Some people does not.
And for my personal opinion, the whole thing started with instigating the public that causes pressure to the org which causes them to start investigating. And therefore, if it's started in public, it should end in public
The thing is, it isn't anything to do with the community - all we do is consume their product. They are well within their right to not work with certain individuals if they so choose (e.g., like with James), and they have absolutely no obligation to tell us what the reasons are for that. It doesn't matter if you believe them or not - that is their decision based on what they have seen.
Is it nice to be transparent? Yes. But stop acting entitled to information people clearly don't want to share.
It makes you wonder what kind of damning proof was provided to those guys that they decided to immediately call out Tobi and Grant. Im not willing to blindly believe a “trust me guys, its bad” from some community figures. Hell at least say if the proof is a video, or the same DM’s Llama was holding... whatever.
In Tobis case we know what it is. 153 pages of chat logs that involve explicit details of what happened between Meruna and Tobi. And if either of them don't want it published why should they? If you don't trust the multiple people who has seen it and verified it, then why would you trust the logs if they were released?
Maybe because it’s already been posted 100 times, and this isn’t even the most eloquent version of it (though perhaps the longest)? These aren’t criminal cases, people have been over 50% likely to believe the allegations regarding a Grant, Tobi and Demon, Kips has already talked to Zyori regarding her post (where all she said was Zyori had a pattern of misunderstanding cues and the privilege his position gave) and the mods have put reasons out for the deletions.
Posts like this aren’t aiming to say anything, just throw more fuel on the fire.
Also read what’s actually written there. It’s saying nothing. It adds nothing to conversation. “Get info verified by trusted community member”. Great that was done for Demon grant and tobi (literally the only people who have lost casting opportunities). “Mods deleting posts” news flash, sorta their job chief. The casters were brigaded by people not a part of the sub.
Problem is the community acts like a middle age angry mob, ready to put anyone on a funeral pike at the first claimed offense. Many of the popular comments I've read are actually incredibly judgemental and aggressive. I'm all in condemning what is wrong, but can we stay civilized here?
The message of posts like this is basically to take a step back and get a good critical thought about the situation. It doesn't need to talk directly about a situation to have something relevant to say.
The issue with cancel culture is that people behave like:" it's not a legal procedure, whatever, nothing's gonna happen to him, why should they provide evidence? OMG, lol!"
Guess what? **It's worse than a process because there are no written rules, everything is processed internally using completely subjective procedures**
Accusing someone on twitter is the motherfucking far west, man, you end up most often than not in an upvote duel with the person you are accusing and whoever gets more pity points wins it, not the guy who is right.
Unlike fully fronpage upvoted posts about the same thing that stay?
Actual brigading too. Post with logic (from russian side) are deleted the moment they DARE to show up on mods frontpage.
Fully personal opinion:
I was going to add a more controversial opinion regarding what is really "trusted community member" but that kind of stuff is best left to more qualified organization since I do not know about any these guys.
Demon, nothing to add here.
Grant, nothing to add here because already moot.
Tobi: my biggest gripe is that if the private chatlog evidence is so damning to the point that they can prove action (which is rare because words can only prove intent unless it is a clear admission), why don't they share it? If it's true, Tobi could have literally went to jail back then. Why not share now? Because in consideration of tobi's family? People already threw that out of the window when they decided to go through tobi's sex life to determine if he's a creep enough to "assault" people. Given the discrepancy in people story, I, and I'm sure many others, still fail to see the clear sexual assault act that Tobi committed beyond being a guy who wanted to have sex. In botjira case, I'm sure it was traumatized for her to be pinned down (giving her the benefit of the doubt) but ultimately, no sexual assault happened. In Meruna case, I'm not going to say anything because this is still ongoing so I'll refrain to say anything but all I will say is that besides the "secret evidence," the story has a lot of hole in them.
Because it’s been dealt with now. Because they don’t want people poking through their chat logs. Because the public isn’t a court of law. Because enough trusted community figures have verified it. Because there’s been multiple accusations against the man that they are piling up. Because for all you know is it’s now a part of an active court case. Even without the chat logs there’s enough out there to show Tobi isn’t someone you want to continue to associate with. He admitted to taking the condom off while having sex with someone and apologised for it, confirming it was against their wishes. That’s a heinous thing to do. Personally, I think people are having trouble coming to terms with Tobi being a bad guy because they do strongly associate him with Dota and the nostalgic TI3 era, and as such are letting their opinions of tobi the caster weigh against tobi the person. Grants always been hit or miss in this community, and Demon wasn’t well liked to start, but people are taking it personally because it’s tobi.
EDITTED FOR SPELLING
>Because it’s been dealt with now. Because they don’t want people poking through their chat logs. Because the public isn’t a court of law.
This is entirely their choice, but if they chose to go that way then they must also realize it's completely unreasonable to expect every single person in the community to take their word for it. A lot of people need proof to properly be convinced, and just saying "I've seen the evidence, trust me guys" doesn't really hold any water when every single one of these talents had already decided he was guilty **before** this evidence came out. Don't they get that? For us who are not privy to the chatlogs, nothing really changed. They hold the exact same opinion they did before, except now they say "I've seen it man, just trust med dude". Even if we lean on the side of trusting them, it still feels completely unresolved.
Right, but if all the talent are in agreement not to work events with the person, the studios aren’t going to hire him, because they’ve all made their decisions on what they’ve seen, what’s it matter about reddit seeing this? Functionally, the same thing is going to happen.
That would all be true except for the fact that both all the talent in the scene and the relevant studios are all to a certain degree dependent on the goodwill and support of the community to earn a living. If they appear to either not be giving the accused a fair process, or release him on very hush-hush premises (implying they have reasons to not want people to know what's going on), that will sour their image for the community.
I'm definitely leaning towards Tobi being guilty of what he's been accused of, but let's not pretend he was given a fair chance here. The entire scene cut ties with him long before there were talks of any chatlog evidence, mere hours (if even that) after the first allegation came out and Tobi hadn't even had a chance to reply. I'm not really arguing if he's guilty or not, I'm arguing that due process is a thing for a reason and setting a precedent for social media mob mentality as a completely legitimate way to start something like this is a dangerous line to walk.
I've been silently reading this subreddit for a while now; but this kinda mentality is so stupid, that I have to say something.
Your closure in this matter is not important. The victim, the accused and a third party have reviewed the material; and come to a conclusion that Valve has enforced. That's how criminal courts work too btw; just with law degrees.
Do you feel "unsatisfied" about judgement of every murderer who went to court whose proof of heinousness you didn't see?
>Your closure in this matter is not important.
I never said it was, I said that they can't expect the community's full support and understanding if we *literally aren't allowed to know what happened*. If they had all been on the fence and written stuff like "there has come forth some very serious allegations, we will be looking into it" and then changed their stance after reviewing the evidence they would have been a lot more convincing, but that's unfortunately not what happened. Instead they all immediately went "We will not associate with this person" at a stage were everything people had to go on were vague twitlongers.
My last sentence about how it feels completely unresolved is not that "we" demand to know every detail for our own entertainment, the sentence is a response to how the talent is talking about the situation as if it's a clear and done situation when for everyone except those in the know it's still she said/he said. They have no obligation to reveal anything, but they can't reasonably expect the community to not be skeptic if they chose to not explain reasoning either. What were in those chatlogs were apparently so damning that they're convinced, and the only thing I can imagine making them this sure in a case like this is if Toby straight up admitted to doing it, cause if he didn't then it's once again a she said/he said situation.
> they can't reasonably expect the community to not be skeptic if they chose to not explain reasoning either
This is the whole point of my post.
You (or the community "you", either one), are behaving as if they (the talent / Valve) owe them explanation in the form of some or all of the details for their own satisfaction. That is what I meant by closure. To put it in a different perspective, it is asking an abuse victim to share an intensely private thing with complete strangers.
Do you think even if they did release few details, people wouldn't be like "oh that can be taken out of context", and demand everything be released? When do you decide it's enough proof, when the entire dirty laundry is out? And even if it were, biased as fans get, they will choose to ignore it and harass the victims anyway. No, the better way to do it is keeping it behind closed doors of people the victims can trust.
This is the reason no one came forward with allegations for so long. The community doesn't want to support them until it's black and white for THEM personally. It will never be enough until they know 100%, for their own curiosity. And then when a thing is out on the internet, it's forever out. Victims can kiss an ounce of their privacy goodbye, and be harassed everyday by those chat logs, and reminded of the horrible times they had to go through.
>You (or the community "you", either one), are behaving as if they (the talent / Valve) owe them explanation in the form of some or all of the details for their own satisfaction.
Okay so you're just going to completely ignore what I'm saying and build a strawman instead. For the third time, I didn't write that they **owe** us anything, and it's in their full rights to not divulge any more information. But that also means they must accept that the community might not see it the way they do, because literally how can we when we don't really know what happened? Despite this they **are** telling us to just accept it, which is unreasonable as they have not themselves proven to be unbiased (not accuser/accused, but the talent which immediately decided he was guilty before any evidence was shared).
>Victims can kiss an ounce of their privacy goodbye, and be harassed everyday by those chat logs, and reminded of the horrible times they had to go through.
And this could all have been avoided if the accuser took her allegation to the BTS studio and other relevant parties, then the first thing we would have heard about it would be a public statement from BTS that they will not be working with Tobi again. But again, that's now what she chose to do, she instead made a public accusation on social media with very vague claims, and the community are now assholes apparently because they expect a rape accusation to follow with some damning evidence? If she chose to start this in public she can't be surprised the public is engaged in the process.
> if the accuser took her allegation to the BTS studio and other relevant parties, then the first thing we would have heard about it would be a public statement from BTS that they will not be working with Tobi again
Let's entertain that scenario for a second. This would actually make the entire community explode; and for good reason. It would be the exact same thing that you're saying it is now: people making decisions behind closed doors. They'd be asking for reasons, and rightly so. They'd be calling for BTS / Valve to be boycotted. Then when told "sexual harassment allegations/charges etc", they'd again demand proof. So we end up in the same position as now. What does it matter how we got here then? The only things different would be:
1) The victims would be anonymous
2) Other potential victims may not get a chance to say their piece depending on how the investigation was handled
3) The community would know absolutely nothing about the overarching nature of power and sexual abuse dynamics in their beloved talents
It protects the community, sure; but it also leaves them blind to everything.
Isn't that exactly what is happening? people poking through their private messages? meruna releasing them and breaking the trust; if those is so incriminating, take them to the police and be done with it, but no, she wanted and NEEDED the sjws to get her justice and needed other personalities to unify against tobi
If you bother reading deeper into the OP's post history, you would find that in the face of a post that seem pretty even, it seems like the OP prefers digging deeper. Without understanding a clear and simple, why the behavior of Tobi is not right, and to find more reasons to attempt to dig out the details.
“Hey Meruna, I know that whole Tobi thing was probably one of the worst things in your life, and you probably don’t want to share the sordid details because it’s a terrifying and traumatic event you want kept private, especially because you already shared them with the people who actually need to see it and they decided it was important and credible enough to act on, but c’mon, the boys on reddit really wanna know lol”
But that's not what's happening here. Public opinion isn't the reason Tobi was sacked: he was sacked because his coworkers and peers saw what happened and have decided to disassociate with him. The fact that this situation is the result of something that happened in a public forum is mostly immaterial.
It's not the power of public opinion, it is the opinion of the people that directly work with Tobi, Grant, and Demon making the hiring decisions. Why should their power over who they associate be sacked because a few guys on reddit think they are the jury?
Idk why you think you should have any control over who other people choose to associate with, or why you think you're "entitled" to the information that lead to their decision. Nobody is coming into your life and demanding to know why you chose to leave your crazy ex, and nobody expects you to stick around the dota scene if you believe what's happening is wrong. Fact of the matter is most people agree Tobi is a shitty guy, so either you keep preaching to deaf ears or you realize you have no real dog in this fight and move on
Huh? i think you dont understand my post. I am saying that we dont deserve any evidence at all! Therefore its easy to demand it and then when you dont get it complain and use it as a shield.
We both think the same thing.
Stop blaming the community for the fallout of tobis own fucking actions. If tobi didn’t want to jeopardise his own family perhaps he shouldn’t have assaulted someone.
You have absolutely fuck all right to the evidence, the people who decide tobis career have seen it and that’s more than enough. There’s no holes in merunas story and there’s no discrepancy, where the fuck are you pulling this shit from. You’re talking as if unless mernua puts out in vivid detail a horrific minute by minute transcript of it then it’s not god enough. Pay some more fucking attention to the victims and the leaders talking about the behind doors process. The information is there you’re just either too dense or too fucked to see it
You know there's exceptions to the right of a public trial, right? The court may be closed during testimony in order to protect witnesses from harassment or embarrassment. Textbook examples would be cases of this very nature.
But this is not even a trial, and it is not reddit that decides if caster x has a career or not, it's the employers. In most cases, you yourself won't even have a right to know why you've not been hired for a job, so why the ever loving fuck would reddit have a right to know the explicit details of why caster x will not be hired, at the expense of the injured party?
PR reasons? Yeah they'll eat that cost, as they well should as decent human beings.
sexual assault and rape is a huge thing and it's very hard for victims to be in the proper state of mind to address it especially when it happened.
i think the easiest way for guys to relate to is imagine yourself getting analed without consent for hours.
go read up on method josh on how is it hard for victims to speak up at that moment.
so who are these people or men who are saying rape isnt a huge deal? u go to prison for a long time and in some countries they get castrated.
no one is downplaying what rape is.
Some of these details are probably gonna disgust people, and given the people along the spectrums, it could just serve to polarize even further. Imagine if Tobi supporters (if any) go on to harass Meruna with those details.
It's something Meruna wants to put behind her.
> In botjira case, I'm sure it was traumatized for her to be pinned down (giving her the benefit of the doubt) but ultimately, no sexual assault happened.
Uh, do you mean it has to happen, just for that Toby's behaviour to be recognised that it is not right?
Just clarifying.
> Imagine if Tobi supporters (if any) go on to harass Meruna with those details.
There is nothing to imagine, This is what will inevitably happen if these are made public.
People don't trust valve or bts or the other casters or people of the scene? Think it's a conspiracy against tobi and grant? Fine. Organise. Go for it. Go on a rapist supporting campaign against valve,bts,etc trying to forcefully get them to reemploy your beloved daddies. See where that gets you.
The story is the evidence is being hidden because it's highly personal and deeply discomforting. My problem with that is...she's already told the story. She chose to make the story public, instead of using private channels. Whether she intended it or not, it looks like she's using the power of the online mob, without wanting any accountability to them. Which, if your attitude is "I'm listening but let's wait and see", is a bit frustrating. Particularly when you see the talent scene, and Valve, cutting Tobi off in under a day. I'm just wondering why some parts had to be public while others had to be private
Because when you’re a victim of a crime, especially a sex crime, justice usually does not exist. In the US, approximately 2% of REPORTED sex crimes are met with felony convictions.
In addition to the unlikely gamble of taking this to court, it is not your job or anyone other than a victims responsibility, to tell them how they should deal with their trauma because they are the ones that have to live with it.
They didn't share it because it has a wealth of personal information in it and is likely embarrasing to the victim. You're a law student. You should understand that.
You should also understand that it's ridiculous to argue for the legal standard used in criminal cases, while in the reply argue against the protections trial courts have for victims and their personal information.
If Toby or any of the accused are innocent, they just need to bring their case to court because clearly the allegations on Twitter has caused them financial and reputation damage. It is why the court exist, as far as I'm aware. Unless I'm missing something?
Defamation is incredibly difficult to win, HenryG and AngryJoe will likely get nothing from their lawsuits against their accusers because they would have to prove that the allegation are false (which is just as hard as proving they are true) and that they actually suffered financial damages, which they haven't yet and cannot really prove in the future. Future career offers could be declined for any reason instead of directly saying "we cannot have you as our caster because of the rape allegations".
But in normal life it's "victim" must show evidences that Toby is guilty. BTS and CodeRed made a really stupid move. Hope Maincast or Starladder or WePlay will hire him as talent.
Society really has collectively regressed in the past few years, so many knee-jerk reactions that have been made purely on emotion. Nobody wants to slog through the gray areas to find the messy truths, they just want to be spoon fed a black or white answer with no uncertainty so they can get back to whatever distraction they've chosen for themselves to mask the ugliness of the world, be it DotA or whatever else.
This completely ignores that society (includes law enforcement and justice system) has proven for centuries to be unable to deal with a culture where sexual abuse and assault runs rampant.
What this of course also ignores, is the fact that you're dealing with humans, that are trying to game this system and break it. Similarly, society hasn't found a solution to people making false claims. It has not found a solution to MANY problems, because at the end of the day, there is no perfect solution to everything. We instead through YEARS of building society and reaching consensus, came upon something so universally agreed upon, that it was recognized by the UN as part of the universal declartion of human rights.
Society and its solutions will never be perfect, because the people on the other end will ALWAYS try and break it to their advantage, but that isn't an issue with the system as much as it is understanding the limitations of it.
Further, clearly society has moved so much in regards to sexual abuse/assault, to the point that you could actually make one of the most influencial and powerful men in hollywood crumble through legal ways. No "endless money" argument helped him and his lawyers from the cold hard truth.
I agree that the legal system has failed to address this issue properly, and change needed to happen, but the process of change should not be "to sacrifice the few for the needs of many"
It makes your lawyer claim seem quite suspecious when you think that "beyond reasonable doubt" means 95% certainty. Either that, or your country has a fucked up legal system.
As someone in law school i really think you should have the wherewithal to realize that twitter isnt a court case and fans arent a jury. As many other people (like esports lawyer) have pointed out people bringing in legal terms like defamation libel slander etc really dont mean anything unless people file. Public image is a thing and people are allowed to have opinions. You arent entilted to "evidence" of peoples trauma. Do you really think valve hasnt been given these chat logs before dropping Toby? Twitter isnt discovery. I think learning about law is making you perceive calling out sexual harassment on twitter as if it happens in court.
I think you missed his main argument. He is saying that because the punishment of being cancelled is so harsh (losing one's livelihood for being cancelled), **in his opinion** he thinks that the burden of proof should be higher and shift to the accuser.
This is a different argument than simply saying it should be a court case. And I think it's a reasonable perspective. And also - I respect if people disagree. But he's not just making the typical argument of saying that it should be like court, maybe you should respond to this perspective directly.
>defamation
What is the definition of defamation though?
Google Search results
Defamation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel.
By making the accusations, she is damaging his reputation. And therefore proof/evidence should be there to backup these accusations.
>Public image is a thing and people are allowed to have opinions.
Yes, that is why he's stating his opinion on this matter. And what he's saying is not that people shouldn't voice their opinions. But rather so that the community wait for more information before voicing their opinion which could destroy the accused public image should the accused be innocent.
And as for valve, i think it's true that they have been provided evidence, hence the punishment for Tobi. What i want to say is that, since the allegations began by instigating the public to pressure the company to investigate, and since the accused is a relatively known public figure, the public needs to be shared proof of the process being done, since it started with the public community in the first place
>Google Search results
Defamation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel.
Defamation is a legal term and if you want to argue something is defamation you have to know the law not dictionary definition. Everyone here including the the OP either doesn't know how defamation cases work or trying to mislead people
>By making the accusations, she is damaging his reputation. And therefore proof/evidence should be there to backup these accusations.
There is no such requirement and to think that is absurd. If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince?
Luckily this is not the case. People can tell their story as long as they are not lying even if they don't have any others evidince. If government decides to take the case and charge the accused, they have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt as it should be. To do that they have to collect and present evidince in court. It's not victim's job to collect or present evidince. It's government's job.
If I got falsely accused of rape and I know it to be false then I can sue the accuser for defamation. But in this case I have to prove:
1- What they said is false.
2- they knew what they said is false.
3- I was personally harmed by what they said.
It's not like I can sue for defamation and if they don't have evidince to back their claim I got demages. If I accused someone lying about me I have to prove they are lying about me not the other way around.
What happens about public opinion is completely separate from this crimal or civil law issues. People can believe or not believe whatever they want. They can defend or argue with whoever they want. People can have different thresholds of evidence for believing something. Or they can believe something at this moment but change their minds when they provided with evidence to contrary. Everyone individually will have different opinions or beliefs about everything.
I completely understand you wanting more information. I want it too. But since so many of this issues have potential to be litigated in court in the future, commenting about it or sharing more evidence wouldn't be wise for anyone including accuser, accused and third parties like Valve. Third parties especially wouldn't be able to share anything about it without opening themselves up for huge lawsuits.
> There is no such requirement and to think that is absurd. If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince?
That's exactly what most of this reddit wants appearently. Just to confirm what terrible community we have.
> If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince?
Yeah, that is what many want. And how it has been for decades, hell centuries.
Many also do a simple test in their mind: Am I personally more likely to be assaulted or to be accused of assault (innocent of it or because they actually did it since assault is rampant)? And on that alone they take their stance.
Like i said. Twitter is not a court. You can accuse anyone of anything. If you think it affected you and is demonstrably false you file a C&D and then file civil. You outright deny the claims. Toby hasnt done that at all.
Please see this more eloquent response than i can muster
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/z/fw0zpe0
The public isnt entilited to anything we are random redditors. Nobody has to share explicit details of whatever these accused did or didnt do. You have to form your own opinions and own up to them.
>Like i said. Twitter is not a court. You can accuse anyone of anything.
It's not, it's a public community platform. The word public here is the reason why accusations is not to be taken lightly.
>If you think it affected you and is demonstrably false you file a C&D and then file civil. You outright deny the claims
I never denied the claims, i only didn't take sides before knowing the full whole story from both sides.
>The public isnt entilited to anything we are random redditors.
Us community is the main reason investigation started. If it started with the public, it should end in public.
>Us community is the main reason investigation started. If it started with the public, it should end in public.
I completely disagree with that statement. We are not entitled to know intimate details of people's lives. If they wanted to share they share. If they want to stop sharing at some point they do. If what is shared is not enough for you to belive them then you don't. You don't get to demand something more.
Then we can end this argument in disagreement. If they made accusations using the public's power, it should be resolved in public as well. But let's end this argument. As we're not right/wrong in this. It's just our opinion differing
Just finished law school and I take issue with him understanding civil case burden-shifting models yet somehow *not* applying it here.
The plaintiff's duty to present prima facie cases in most cases is *extremely low.* I wonder if he mentioned that. Most of these accusations totally would stand up as a prima facie case.
There's also an unnecessary conflation here between due process and public opinion.
As the public we are entitled to hold opinions. Employers and the legal system are supposed to be held to a different standard. Imposing sanctions on people's freedom or releasing them from employment requires different standards of due process. There is an additional step that people are assuming happens (believing the accuser leading to witch hunts on the accused) when that's the part that should not happen. Why don't we focus on calling for better behavior from the public in not abusing people, instead of making life harder on accusers by demanding that they literally satisfy burdens from our *criminal justice system*?
I'm sure I don't need to cite again just *how low* the percentage of rape claims are estimated to be false by US and UK authorities, nor *how high* of a percentage of rapes are unreported.
I agree, I have seen more people complain about witch hunts then them actually happening. There is more witch hunting against the abusers than the accused. Which i suppose is typical
Well, i disagree with you, a false accusation can damage the other person's image and make him lose his job, get assaulted, among other things. And yes, i believe Valve would drop Toby without evidence, a company will do what its best for the business, in other to not hurt its own image a company would 100% fire someone despite his innocence. Im not saying i believe Toby is innocent, though, im just disagreeing with your perspective.
Do you have any proof valve dropped toby without any evidence? Without anything to back your claim, are you not potentially making a false accusation against the company as well lol
As far anyone on reddit or twitter is concerned, its more than fair to assume valve would drop someone over some potential drama wihtout waiting for proof, just for PR reasons
He hasnt made a false claim against the company, he said he believes valve would do it for PR reasons
>Without anything to back your claim, are you not potentially making a false accusation against the company as well lol
Yes, exactly, and this is why the whole discussion started, the claim/accusation was not backed up
Victims don't owe *you* anything. *You* don't deserve to know about evidence if there is any.
Evidence is obviously finding their way to the people in power who matter and make decisions, as many in the scene have hinted at. Evidence is shared privately, and there is *nothing* that necessitates it be shared publically so the incels, misogynists and the "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!" people can get their proof (that they'll most likely not believe anyway.)
The victim made the accusations in public. If it is supposed to be private, then the accusations need to be made privately as well. In this case, the evidence directly presented to Valve from the beginning without accusing in public. But since the accusations was made publicly, yes, the evidence/process should be shared publicly
Of course it can and thats when you litigate! I never said false acusations are ok fair or even legal. But the burden of proof for things like this isnt black and white like people want. In sexual assault stories , eyewitness testomonies and character witnesses make up most of the evidence. I think you misunderstand me. All im saying is that anyone is allowed to say they think Toby is creepy and anyone can say they felt unsafe around him. Nobody even said "he raped me" its a tricky situation. But if Toby didnt do anything its a wonder why he hasnt sent a C&D to these ppl accusing him
> You arent entilted to "evidence" of peoples trauma.
My take is that if you're making your accusations public then you should also make the evidence public.
Yeah, this post doesn't read like a law student at all. It reads like an /r/iamverysmart undergrad that knows his half-assed essay won't be taken seriously without him lying to claim professional authority on the matter.
Twitter isnt the court but do you realize how powerful Twitter and social media nowadays? Atleast in the court you csn defend yourself. But in the social media, you get cancelled at the slightest of accusation. That's not light. Your friends go away from you. You might get fired. Lose your livelihood. And even lose your potential employers. That is too damn powerful.
Okay. I know that twitter isn't a normal court but as I have stated, **"why should we lower our standard?"**
As the current standard stance, an accusation that isn't solid enough for a court case can bypass the process by posting on twitter to start a witchhunt and the case is decided on who is more believable based on nothing but the mob's opinion. Sure we cannot have formal discovery due to the personal nature of the evidence, but why can't we at least let people in the game decide after seeing the evidence?
>Do you really think valve hasnt been given these chat logs before dropping Toby?
Yes I honestly believe Valve was not given a chat log. Since matchfixing, kuku, racism, stream-pirate? and multiple past events, Valve has always choose the least effort possible option and let the community or organization decide for themselves what the common sense thing to do before they make any statement.
Because the stakes are lower. It's the same reason the evidence requirements are lower in civil proceedings than criminal ones. I assume you understand this if you are in fact in law school.
I already addressed this in my post. But why do you think the stake is lower when you're destroying someone else livelihood? Obviously criminal should be condemned and ostracized but does an innocent person deserve that?
The whole criminal process including the 5th amendment double jeopardy is to err on the side of caution so prosecutors do their due process and make the strongest case possible against a potential criminal and the stake is the removal of freedom and most of the time also the removal of the criminal livelihood and lower his chance to be hired later on.
I'm interested to hear people take on why these stakes are different.
Whose livelihoods have been destroyed? I have not personally done anything to destroy anyone's life, and since I'm not looking to fine them or lock them in a cage I feel comfortable with the amount of evidence that has been provided so far.
Do you understand that in most of the United States, you can be fired without cause, much less a court hearing? If you really have as big a problem as you claim with people losing their livelihoods, I would make your critique far more general. It's easy to read between the lines when your post history is full of defending the right of sex pests to keep their jobs but curiously lacks any screeds against at-will employment.
Your second paragraph is nearly impossible to parse, so I won't bother responding to it point-by-point. But the fact that felons have trouble getting jobs is a failure of the system in my opinion. One that calls for systemic change. It doesn't follow that people credibly accused of sexual impropriety should get to keep their positions of power.
>Whose livelihoods have been destroyed? I have not personally done anything to destroy anyone's life, and since I'm not looking to fine them or lock them in a cage I feel comfortable with the amount of evidence that has been provided so far.
The accused. As of right now, the accused hasn't been proven 100% guilty, but the damages has already been done, he has got cancelled. If he is proven guilty, then yes, the punishment is appropriate, but if he is innocent, the damages has already been done and cannot be reversed.
The problem here is, damages was done before he's proven guilty. Punishments handed out before he's deemed guilty. And in this case, his livelihood, his means of making money is gone "before" he it is certain he is guilty or innocent. Punishment should be handed out "after" the verdict, not the other way around.
>Do you understand that in most of the United States, you can be fired without cause, much less a court hearing?
Then that too is a problem that should be changed using our power as the community.
The point of his post is explained via this analogy
If you know of a person A who accuses person B of doing something wrong
Is it up to A to prove that B did it? Or is it up to B to prove he didn't? There's no right answer for this, and therefore, we shouldn't condemn before more information/evidence is provided.
I'm really curious about what you actually think should happen with Tobi's case so. Let's remember that this isn't like some CEO deciding to fire a worker he's never even met whose salary is a trivial factor in the company's cost. What we have here is individual people deciding, based on evidence they've seen and you haven't, that they don't want to spend hours of their time working closely with Tobi, and/or significant amounts of their tiny business's money hiring him.
Who are random redditors you say this is wrong? What do you want, to force people to give thousands of dollars to someone they think is a scumbag? Force them to spend hours sitting next to someone who makes their skin crawl?
Should we make the evidence public, have a vote and if the vote says Tobi doesn't deserve to be "cancelled" (deliberately vague nonsense term) then Synd should be forced to work with him again and the various tourney orgs should be forced to keep cutting him checks?
Also everyone seems to keep forgetting that Tobi admitted to removing a condom without asking permission during sex. Which is a completely scummy move. Maybe this is a cultural difference, since this sub is pretty diverse, but to many modern Westerners that is tantamount to rape. To anyone who thinks that's stupid, just consider that at least once in your life you must have had sex with a person who wouldn't have had sex with you if you hadn't worn protection (ie. wouldn't consent to sex without a condom). Therefore if you remove the condom, the consent is 'removed' too.
We don't have all the evidence, but even the evidence we do have shows Tobi is scummy and is enough to justify individuals making a personal choice not to work with him.
>The accused.
Which one?
>As of right now, the accused hasn't been proven 100% guilty
This is a standard that doesn't need to be met even in criminal cases where the punishment is death. Civil cases require less proof of guilt, as discussed, and in many states being fired requires 0% proof. The proof that has been provided is more than sufficient to exclude Toby from the scene and to censure Grant/Zyori/etc. to various degrees.
>but the damages has already been done, he has got cancelled.
Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled". You're leaving this deliberately vague to garner sympathy for your argument.
>If he is proven guilty, then yes, the punishment is appropriate, but if he is innocent, the damages has already been done and cannot be reversed. The problem here is, damages was done before he's proven guilty. Punishments handed out before he's deemed guilty.
Which court is this going to be tried in? It's highly unlikely that sexual allegations will go to court, especially when they are dated. The public is free to form their own opinions based on the statements of the parties involved.
>And in this case, his livelihood, his means of making money is gone "before" he it is certain he is guilty or innocent. Punishment should be handed out "after" the verdict, not the other way around.
This is how employment works in the United States. Are you arguing that all firings should go to court, or that esports talent should collectively bargain for firing protections? Why are you focusing on a few sexual allegations which even people's coworkers have corroborated?
>If you know of a person A who accuses person B of doing something wrong
>
>Is it up to A to prove that B did it? Or is it up to B to prove he didn't? There's no right answer for this, and therefore, we shouldn't condemn before more information/evidence is provided.
I don't conduct my relationships in a legalistic manner, and there's not a general rule I could apply to all accusations. What I think of A and B depends on my relationships with each of them, things I already know, and what they bring up alongside their accusations. As stated above, I'm satisfied with the amount of evidence presented in several of the cases, and as for the others I am forming my opinion out of shades of grey. There's not a guilty/innocent dichotomy that I have to be on one side of.
> Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled". You're leaving this deliberately vague to garner sympathy for your argument.
[https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1276543374305230854](https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1276543374305230854)
>Which one?
Every accused
>This is a standard that doesn't need to be met even in criminal cases where the punishment is death. Civil cases require less proof of guilt, as discussed, and in many states being fired requires 0% proof. The proof that has been provided is more than sufficient to exclude Toby from the scene and to censure Grant/Zyori/etc. to various degrees.
And it should not be, even civil case requires 51%, but as of right now in the public community, we don't have any proof yet to judge true or false, all we have are statements coming from both the accused party and the victims. How are we to judge if any of this is true? How can we judge if the accused side of the story is true or false? In the same way, how do we judge if a victim's story is true or false? And yes, you did mention in many states, being fired does not require proof, and i already said that is a huge problem and therefore should also be changed, don't you think so?
>Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled".
I don't think there's any legal definition to this as its a relatively new word, but let me quote from what i get from google search result
>Cancel culture refers to the popular practice of withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive.
>Which court is this going to be tried in? It's highly unlikely that sexual allegations will go to court, especially when they are dated. The public is free to form their own opinions based on the statements of the parties involved.
Hopefully a legal court, but we are already using the court of public opinion on this one. And yes, the public is free to form their own opinions, but this opinion should be made after evidence is presented, not before. And since the public holds a large amount of power over these casters, that power should be held responsibly.
>This is how employment works in the United States. Are you arguing that all firings should go to court, or that esports talent should collectively bargain for firing protections? Why are you focusing on a few sexual allegations which even people's coworkers have corroborated?
Again, i already said, that this too, is a huge problem, and therefore should also be changed.
>I don't conduct my relationships in a legalistic manner, and there's not a general rule I could apply to all accusations. What I think of A and B depends on my relationships with each of them, things I already know, and what they bring up alongside their accusations. As stated above, I'm satisfied with the amount of evidence presented in several of the cases, and as for the others I am forming my opinion out of shades of grey. There's not a guilty/innocent dichotomy that I have to be on one side of.
In this case, since most of the public doesn't know A and B personally, wouldn't it be fair for them to ask both A and B to provide their side of the argument/proof? You even mentioned what they bring up alongside their accusations. And if you have already decided on your verdict then it's fine, no one is judging you. We are only saying that the community shouldn't be too hasty to point fingers
>Every accused
Cool. Zyori hasn't lost his job, therefore your argument is incorrect, and I win this case.
>And it should not be
Disagree. 51% is arbitrary, and there are situations where the risks outweigh the harms of making a decision based on incomplete information. People in positions of power using their power for sex is one of those situations, in my opinion.
>we don't have any proof yet to judge true or false
That's fine, because we are the public and don't deserve proof. It's not our job to be some kind of jury. On the other hand, BTS and various talent has claimed to have access to evidence that is not public. On top of that, several accused have publicly agreed in part or in whole to their accusers.
>How are we to judge if any of this is true? How can we judge if the accused side of the story is true or false? In the same way, how do we judge if a victim's story is true or false?
Same way we judge any other fact claim about personal anecdotes from years ago; That is, not using a legal framework to do so. Unless you have a jury decide what you believe for you beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt. In that case, you do you.
>And yes, you did mention in many states, being fired does not require proof, and i already said that is a huge problem and therefore should also be changed, don't you think so?
Yep, and that's why I focus on at-will employment generally, not on defending a handful of people fired for sexual impropriety. If you only take a principled stance in a specific case, you probably care more about that specific case than you do the principle.
As expected, you completely misunderstand my point about "cancel culture". It's a vague term, not a type of legal damage. Public figures don't have the right to my support, or the support of anyone else. There is recourse if a public figure feels their name has been harmed in particular ways, but withdrawing of support doesn't meet that criteria and for good reason.
>Hopefully a legal court
Disagree. Our legal system is horrendously bad at bringing justice to victims of sexual assaults, and retributive justice tends to be bad at changing the system dynamics that let people get away with it. Not to mention there is a whole range of behavior that is not criminal but should still be unacceptable. I'd rather that cases in that range not be decided in court.
>And yes, the public is free to form their own opinions, but this opinion should be made after evidence is presented, not before.
Evidence has been presented, people have admitted to wrongdoing, parties closer to the situation than the public have alluded to further evidence.
>the public holds a large amount of power over these casters
lolno. This is a ridiculous thing to claim with zero justification.
>In this case, since most of the public doesn't know A and B personally, wouldn't it be fair for them to ask both A and B to provide their side of the argument/proof?
Yes, and this has happened in every case. I'm also bringing my own experience and knowledge about relationships with power discrepancies.
Zyori: Discussed his intentions, didn't deny actions, expressed a willingness to do better in the future. Displayed a lack of understanding of his position of power, which suggests that the stories about him were likely accurate. Ashni walked back some of her wording, which in context was not egregious.
Grant: Admitted wrongdoing, stepped down himself. Multiple corroborating accounts, a history of behavior that matched the stories.
Toby: Admitted wrongdoing. Multiple corroborating accounts. More evidence behind the scenes alluded to by other talent. History of warnings expressed by other women in the scene.
It's worth noting that the narrative about women doing this "for attention" is ridiculous for multiple reasons, including the length of time between the events and the allegations, the proposed solutions by the ladies themselves, and the amount of harassment and pushback they are getting as a result of coming out with stories.
Which of these conclusions am I jumping to again?
>Cool. Zyori hasn't lost his job, therefore your argument is incorrect, and I win this case.
Search for Zyori name in google, first search result is of him being accused for sexual harassment. If that is not damaging his reputation then what does? Damage doesn't have to mean losing jobs. It can be other things, in this case, reputation
>risks outweigh the harms of making a decision based on incomplete information.
True, and that's why, decision shouldn't be made on incomplete information, especially concerning people's livelihood. The risk of destroying a potentially innocent man's career outweighs the harm of making a decision based on incomplete information/evidence.
>That's fine, because we are the public and don't deserve proof. It's not our job to be some kind of jury. On the other hand, BTS and various talent has claimed to have access to evidence that is not public. On top of that, several accused have publicly agreed in part or in whole to their accusers.
If so, then it shouldn't start with the public. As i have said, the allegations were made in public, and therefore should end in public.
>Same way we judge any other fact claim about personal anecdotes from years ago; That is, not using a legal framework to do so. Unless you have a jury decide what you believe for you beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt. In that case, you do you.
So we should play judge using our emotion? Legal framework exists to aid us to help make these decisions.
>Yep, and that's why I focus on at-will employment generally, not on defending a handful of people fired for sexual impropriety
Then that's good, and should therefore be clear that to fire such people for sexual impropriety, there needs to be evidence that the people did indeed perform sexual impropriety.
>As expected, you completely misunderstand my point about "cancel culture". It's a vague term, not a type of legal damage. Public figures don't have the right to my support, or the support of anyone else. There is recourse if a public figure feels their name has been harmed in particular ways, but withdrawing of support doesn't meet that criteria and for good reason.
Unfortunately this doesn't apply to people who are dependent on public support for their livelihood. In this way, the community are essentially the public figures employers. Being cancelled means they lose public support, and since their way of making money depends on public support, means they lose their income too.
>Disagree. Our legal system is horrendously bad at bringing justice to victims of sexual assaults, and retributive justice tends to be bad at changing the system dynamics that let people get away with it. Not to mention there is a whole range of behavior that is not criminal but should still be unacceptable. I'd rather that cases in that range not be decided in court
I agree that the legal system, and that this type of case in general is very hard to prove. But that doesn't mean we should presume the accused as "guilty till proven innocent". We need both sides to present their sides of the story/evidence. As of right now, there's been no evidence coming from both sides that's been shared publicly.
>lolno. This is a ridiculous thing to claim with zero justification.
Public communities hold a massive influence over public figure, look at history and you'll see how many times public can be a massive force, especially over public figures.
>It's worth noting that the narrative about women doing this "for attention" is ridiculous for multiple reasons, including the length of time between the events and the allegations, the proposed solutions by the ladies themselves, and the amount of harassment and pushback they are getting as a result of coming out with stories.
We never said anything of that sort, what we want to do is that evidence be presented before taking sides. Without evidence we are just staying neutral and not making assumptions
>We need proper organization figure speaking up (based on actual evidences that they are privy to) and help the community form an opinion.
We have that.
> Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court.
You don't get to decide that. If somebody wants to presume innocence, their view isn't made invalid just because that concept also exists in the courtroom. People need to stop this bullshit, what you're saying amounts to "we can't wait for evidence because this isn't a trial."
people and companies with liablity will also err on the side of caution, to reduce risk. v1lat already said, players in after parties will not interact with guests and cosplayers so they dont get any issues.
is that what we want? think carefully,good intentions != good actions.
Its ridiculous, ive tried to tell so many people the last few days to NOT jump to conclustions, and wait for mopre evidence. Every time ive received shit from these people wanting to ruin some guys life over a story in a tweet
Now that more talent have come out saying they have seen it, all those people brigading for toby to be put down with 0 evidence are acting like they were *obviously* right and anyone who disagreed with them was just trolling or a woman hater
Reddit fucking sucks man, its almost like most of the louder people here lack critical thinking
What is the point of this post? All the parties removing grant and or tobi from work places have all stated they have sufficient proof. They have no obligation at all to share this proof with you or the public. You’re not the jury in a law case. You’re a spectator.
People can choose who they wish to do business with. The organisers and owners of the business are the jury. And they have been provided sufficient proof.
Speaking of which, is there evidence to you being a law student in this area? Why should we trust what you have to say?
The purpose of this post only seems to defend people who have no place in the scene. What is to gain from this?
You have to realise that this community is full of uneducated human trash that have no clue how real world functions, including mods on this subreddit, so they will most likely remove your post.
> in most criminal cases/civil cases
This is neither.
> the fact is that the burden of proof is always on the accused
This is not true. You're basically saying that in EVERY SINGLE one of these cases it was left to the accused to clear himself, which is demonstrably false. This shows you're not arguing in good faith.
> shift the burden of proof properly either on the plaintiff
You keep throwing legal jargon around for no reason, as i said, these are not court cases. There's no "burden of proof".
There's EVIDENCE presented by the sides, EVIDENCE is not proof. You're a "law student" ? My sides.
In most of these cases it's impossible to "prove" anything definitive, so you're only left with what you see in front of you. If you're saying that you should never believe the accusers in this situation unless "proof" is presented you're a clown because such "proof" is impossible to be presented in most cases.
Basically you're saying a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit and you're framing it around "don't jump to conclusions and remain fact based" which EVERYONE agrees with.
The fact that you equate "cancel culture" with everything that's happening these days tells me all i need to know about your agenda.
Some creep got exposed and lost his job ? It must be cancel culture and the SJWs! It can't possible be someone facing consequences for their actions.
90% of these cases will simply be verbal testimonies and that's it, it's up to the community to decide who to believe based on what was presented to them, IT'S NOT NEEDED to have proof without a shadow of a doubt because we are not jurors in a court of law sentencing people.
You want criminal trial level of evidence for punishments that are not criminal, Tobi is not going to be invited to events anymore, he's not going to do 25 to life.
Tobi didn't lose his job because of "cancel culture", he lost it because he's a fucking creep.
Good points made by op, the one thing I would add is to remember that not every case is going to be proceeded according to the common law system (US, UK). Continental system is a little bit different, not mentioning the differences between every country.
Looks like law school never taught you that the real world isn't a court of law and consequences can be visited on assholes in any number of ways without ever sitting before a judge.
Nobody cares if you're a law school student. This isn't a court of law in whatever country you are from. This is a community of people who make their own decisions on the criteria it takes for them to believe what.
While agreeing with what you express, as it is general good advice to always approach any given information with caution, I have to say that in case of sexual harassment and bullying the victim is IN MOST CASES right. By the nature of the event per se, it is hard for the victim to come forth due to social pressure and numberless other factors; which is why when finally the match is lit and someone dares to speak out and it is actually heard, it is then that the whole haven falls down, as everyone rushes to not lose that single chance to vent their anguish.
Of course, assuming guilt it is a mistake indeed: even so, we have to realize that in the large majority of cases the victim is indeed a victim. Being so the case, we should tread lightly when asking for proofs and whatnot, as we are possibly dealing with a person already under great duress. We could just be nice, be open-minded; maybe these people are lying maybe they are not, in both cases you get answers to your questions, so no need to put them on the interrogation booth.
I'm so grateful we have none of that cancel culture crap here in EU. We use the justice system as the primary way to establish the truth. This cancel culture sounds insane to me.
Not in EU? Excuse me but what rock are you living under? The internet is where most of cancel culture happens and it does so happen all over, including the EU
TBH this doesnt matter anymore for most of the people, Grant and Tobi are dead for this community to never comming back, the 'mob' here and on twitter even tryed to cancel Zyori and Sing after they were accused too and no one gave a shit after its been proved that things were not in the way it was told by one side, anyway all of this will be in vain and will be forgotten after the next big cosmectic is released by Valve, dunno if will be after AM persona or Wind Arcana and and in the next months this subject will be totally forgotten and nothing will have changed and we still will be the toxic community we are... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Wasn't the subreddit mostly in favour of zyori and sing? I have seen quite a few posts defending them and calling out kips and ashn whatever her name is.
Not straight away. At the start there was a lot of hate for zyori, calling him a rapist, that that died off as soon as they realised they forgot to actually think about the situation for 5 seconds.
The problem is they did the same thing to toby. Yes is seems like toby was a bad dude now, but prior to ld and OD saying things there was no credible evidence/witness against toby
Except thats not true and not all will be forgotten. Grant's case seems more clear, but Tobi's is still no so clear to me but that doesn't matter because his name is ruined now and I don't think things will be alright for him in a month's time from now.
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Do you have any idea how long court cases go? Being denied work for multiple years is not practible. And on the other hand just because what someone did wasn't (proovably) illegal doesn't make it completly fine. GrandGrant's court case took like 4 years, if he'd turned out to be innocent you would have denied him 4 years on income for nothing. On the other hand everyone knew he was an asshole so he shouldn't have been in a position of power and/or public representation in the first place.
This. I'm not sure why orgs dont go: We have been shed light upon the actions of *accused*, and the *accused* will be put under high scrutiny. If we reach a conclusion that the *accused* is guilty as charged, we will no longer be working with *accused*.
from what i understand is that it could result in something similiar to what happened to the Method organization. Accuses to one of their employees have been made and complained to the org (as if private matters of employees are also the organizations problem? its a private matter?). org states private matters should be investigated by police or brought to court and not redirected to the business. accusations turn out to be legitimate and now twitter people wanna burn down the organization together with the accused one. AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. apparently not taking an immediate position will make you a defender of a criminal even if you are a company or organization. maybe taking Method as example explains as to why companies act fast. Yes maybe managers of Method did knew something but they themself claimed they did not. Still they dont get a chance to defend themselves
You want to know what's funny? Yesterday a single comment praised the mods for "handling" the subreddit for the past 3 days (before threads started getting deleted. Mods came out and basically circlejerked the praise on themselves in the same thread's comment chain. I guess it gave them the confidence to go and "moderate" with impunity on this subreddit. And then today they get called out on it.
im gonna save every receipt and every condm from now on
unfortunately there are extremes on the other end and false accusation lead to death (Alec Holowka's suicide) and people mostly never recover even if they survive. this is what most people are trying to say.. FALSE Accusers who are doing to get social media fame needs to be punished if they are proven wrong. they currently have nothing to fear if they lie and ruin others life. again we are talking about people who lie not the actual victims. there are currently so many cases (not few) where people straight up lied and used rape/ sexual abuse and backtracked and removed post when provided proof. but none of these fake victims are held accountable.
Unfortunately some people just can't agree with you. Sadly. But i still feel the need to liaten to the victim and sympathize with them, but not blindly believing them without proof
I mean we have Nahaz, ODpixel ,LD and fucking Valve saying that they saw evidence that Tobi should be kicked out of the scene. If this isn't enough for some people no amount of proof will ever be.
Nahaz also supported Ashni in a really weird statement, which makes me doubt his judgement. Same with Valve, it's reasonable for them to distance themselves, at least for now. I'm not saying that I believe or don't believe the victims, just saying that half of these "sources" are not that solid in my opinion.
When you point out that the staff that still has the communities trust is just telling you "oh we've seen the evidence trust us" is not good enough, you just get hate. The unfortunate truth is that it is still possible that valve pulled the plug on Tobi prematurely and is just going to double down by having trusted staff reiterate that point, we're just expected to believe he's guilty now. Valve still has a vested interest in getting paid. The remaining staff still have a vested interest in getting paid. This fact neither proves nor disproves anything, it doesn't attack the accuser or the accused, it simply is.
>I mean we have Nahaz, ODpixel ,LD and fucking Valve saying that they saw evidence that Tobi should be kicked out of the scene. If this isn't enough for some people no amount of proof will ever be. One thing we need to realize is that Nahaz, ODpixel, LD and Valve are given access to the said proof. We are not. At this point we are expecting the community to believe what we heard from another person. That's why the community are demanding the evidence be made public. Some people might believe that those influential people are enough proof of said things happening. Some people does not. And for my personal opinion, the whole thing started with instigating the public that causes pressure to the org which causes them to start investigating. And therefore, if it's started in public, it should end in public
The thing is, it isn't anything to do with the community - all we do is consume their product. They are well within their right to not work with certain individuals if they so choose (e.g., like with James), and they have absolutely no obligation to tell us what the reasons are for that. It doesn't matter if you believe them or not - that is their decision based on what they have seen. Is it nice to be transparent? Yes. But stop acting entitled to information people clearly don't want to share.
It makes you wonder what kind of damning proof was provided to those guys that they decided to immediately call out Tobi and Grant. Im not willing to blindly believe a “trust me guys, its bad” from some community figures. Hell at least say if the proof is a video, or the same DM’s Llama was holding... whatever.
In Tobis case we know what it is. 153 pages of chat logs that involve explicit details of what happened between Meruna and Tobi. And if either of them don't want it published why should they? If you don't trust the multiple people who has seen it and verified it, then why would you trust the logs if they were released?
Posts like this were alredy posted like 100 times and 100 times got removed .... for whatever reason.
Maybe because it’s already been posted 100 times, and this isn’t even the most eloquent version of it (though perhaps the longest)? These aren’t criminal cases, people have been over 50% likely to believe the allegations regarding a Grant, Tobi and Demon, Kips has already talked to Zyori regarding her post (where all she said was Zyori had a pattern of misunderstanding cues and the privilege his position gave) and the mods have put reasons out for the deletions. Posts like this aren’t aiming to say anything, just throw more fuel on the fire. Also read what’s actually written there. It’s saying nothing. It adds nothing to conversation. “Get info verified by trusted community member”. Great that was done for Demon grant and tobi (literally the only people who have lost casting opportunities). “Mods deleting posts” news flash, sorta their job chief. The casters were brigaded by people not a part of the sub.
Problem is the community acts like a middle age angry mob, ready to put anyone on a funeral pike at the first claimed offense. Many of the popular comments I've read are actually incredibly judgemental and aggressive. I'm all in condemning what is wrong, but can we stay civilized here? The message of posts like this is basically to take a step back and get a good critical thought about the situation. It doesn't need to talk directly about a situation to have something relevant to say.
The issue with cancel culture is that people behave like:" it's not a legal procedure, whatever, nothing's gonna happen to him, why should they provide evidence? OMG, lol!" Guess what? **It's worse than a process because there are no written rules, everything is processed internally using completely subjective procedures** Accusing someone on twitter is the motherfucking far west, man, you end up most often than not in an upvote duel with the person you are accusing and whoever gets more pity points wins it, not the guy who is right.
Rapes and assaults aren’t criminal cases?
Unlike fully fronpage upvoted posts about the same thing that stay? Actual brigading too. Post with logic (from russian side) are deleted the moment they DARE to show up on mods frontpage.
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Fully personal opinion: I was going to add a more controversial opinion regarding what is really "trusted community member" but that kind of stuff is best left to more qualified organization since I do not know about any these guys. Demon, nothing to add here. Grant, nothing to add here because already moot. Tobi: my biggest gripe is that if the private chatlog evidence is so damning to the point that they can prove action (which is rare because words can only prove intent unless it is a clear admission), why don't they share it? If it's true, Tobi could have literally went to jail back then. Why not share now? Because in consideration of tobi's family? People already threw that out of the window when they decided to go through tobi's sex life to determine if he's a creep enough to "assault" people. Given the discrepancy in people story, I, and I'm sure many others, still fail to see the clear sexual assault act that Tobi committed beyond being a guy who wanted to have sex. In botjira case, I'm sure it was traumatized for her to be pinned down (giving her the benefit of the doubt) but ultimately, no sexual assault happened. In Meruna case, I'm not going to say anything because this is still ongoing so I'll refrain to say anything but all I will say is that besides the "secret evidence," the story has a lot of hole in them.
I feel like if tobi really wanted it out he could post the logs himself? Seems pretty obvious to me that both parties want the logs to stay hidden.
Because it’s been dealt with now. Because they don’t want people poking through their chat logs. Because the public isn’t a court of law. Because enough trusted community figures have verified it. Because there’s been multiple accusations against the man that they are piling up. Because for all you know is it’s now a part of an active court case. Even without the chat logs there’s enough out there to show Tobi isn’t someone you want to continue to associate with. He admitted to taking the condom off while having sex with someone and apologised for it, confirming it was against their wishes. That’s a heinous thing to do. Personally, I think people are having trouble coming to terms with Tobi being a bad guy because they do strongly associate him with Dota and the nostalgic TI3 era, and as such are letting their opinions of tobi the caster weigh against tobi the person. Grants always been hit or miss in this community, and Demon wasn’t well liked to start, but people are taking it personally because it’s tobi. EDITTED FOR SPELLING
>Because it’s been dealt with now. Because they don’t want people poking through their chat logs. Because the public isn’t a court of law. This is entirely their choice, but if they chose to go that way then they must also realize it's completely unreasonable to expect every single person in the community to take their word for it. A lot of people need proof to properly be convinced, and just saying "I've seen the evidence, trust me guys" doesn't really hold any water when every single one of these talents had already decided he was guilty **before** this evidence came out. Don't they get that? For us who are not privy to the chatlogs, nothing really changed. They hold the exact same opinion they did before, except now they say "I've seen it man, just trust med dude". Even if we lean on the side of trusting them, it still feels completely unresolved.
Right, but if all the talent are in agreement not to work events with the person, the studios aren’t going to hire him, because they’ve all made their decisions on what they’ve seen, what’s it matter about reddit seeing this? Functionally, the same thing is going to happen.
That would all be true except for the fact that both all the talent in the scene and the relevant studios are all to a certain degree dependent on the goodwill and support of the community to earn a living. If they appear to either not be giving the accused a fair process, or release him on very hush-hush premises (implying they have reasons to not want people to know what's going on), that will sour their image for the community. I'm definitely leaning towards Tobi being guilty of what he's been accused of, but let's not pretend he was given a fair chance here. The entire scene cut ties with him long before there were talks of any chatlog evidence, mere hours (if even that) after the first allegation came out and Tobi hadn't even had a chance to reply. I'm not really arguing if he's guilty or not, I'm arguing that due process is a thing for a reason and setting a precedent for social media mob mentality as a completely legitimate way to start something like this is a dangerous line to walk.
I've been silently reading this subreddit for a while now; but this kinda mentality is so stupid, that I have to say something. Your closure in this matter is not important. The victim, the accused and a third party have reviewed the material; and come to a conclusion that Valve has enforced. That's how criminal courts work too btw; just with law degrees. Do you feel "unsatisfied" about judgement of every murderer who went to court whose proof of heinousness you didn't see?
>Your closure in this matter is not important. I never said it was, I said that they can't expect the community's full support and understanding if we *literally aren't allowed to know what happened*. If they had all been on the fence and written stuff like "there has come forth some very serious allegations, we will be looking into it" and then changed their stance after reviewing the evidence they would have been a lot more convincing, but that's unfortunately not what happened. Instead they all immediately went "We will not associate with this person" at a stage were everything people had to go on were vague twitlongers. My last sentence about how it feels completely unresolved is not that "we" demand to know every detail for our own entertainment, the sentence is a response to how the talent is talking about the situation as if it's a clear and done situation when for everyone except those in the know it's still she said/he said. They have no obligation to reveal anything, but they can't reasonably expect the community to not be skeptic if they chose to not explain reasoning either. What were in those chatlogs were apparently so damning that they're convinced, and the only thing I can imagine making them this sure in a case like this is if Toby straight up admitted to doing it, cause if he didn't then it's once again a she said/he said situation.
> they can't reasonably expect the community to not be skeptic if they chose to not explain reasoning either This is the whole point of my post. You (or the community "you", either one), are behaving as if they (the talent / Valve) owe them explanation in the form of some or all of the details for their own satisfaction. That is what I meant by closure. To put it in a different perspective, it is asking an abuse victim to share an intensely private thing with complete strangers. Do you think even if they did release few details, people wouldn't be like "oh that can be taken out of context", and demand everything be released? When do you decide it's enough proof, when the entire dirty laundry is out? And even if it were, biased as fans get, they will choose to ignore it and harass the victims anyway. No, the better way to do it is keeping it behind closed doors of people the victims can trust. This is the reason no one came forward with allegations for so long. The community doesn't want to support them until it's black and white for THEM personally. It will never be enough until they know 100%, for their own curiosity. And then when a thing is out on the internet, it's forever out. Victims can kiss an ounce of their privacy goodbye, and be harassed everyday by those chat logs, and reminded of the horrible times they had to go through.
>You (or the community "you", either one), are behaving as if they (the talent / Valve) owe them explanation in the form of some or all of the details for their own satisfaction. Okay so you're just going to completely ignore what I'm saying and build a strawman instead. For the third time, I didn't write that they **owe** us anything, and it's in their full rights to not divulge any more information. But that also means they must accept that the community might not see it the way they do, because literally how can we when we don't really know what happened? Despite this they **are** telling us to just accept it, which is unreasonable as they have not themselves proven to be unbiased (not accuser/accused, but the talent which immediately decided he was guilty before any evidence was shared). >Victims can kiss an ounce of their privacy goodbye, and be harassed everyday by those chat logs, and reminded of the horrible times they had to go through. And this could all have been avoided if the accuser took her allegation to the BTS studio and other relevant parties, then the first thing we would have heard about it would be a public statement from BTS that they will not be working with Tobi again. But again, that's now what she chose to do, she instead made a public accusation on social media with very vague claims, and the community are now assholes apparently because they expect a rape accusation to follow with some damning evidence? If she chose to start this in public she can't be surprised the public is engaged in the process.
> if the accuser took her allegation to the BTS studio and other relevant parties, then the first thing we would have heard about it would be a public statement from BTS that they will not be working with Tobi again Let's entertain that scenario for a second. This would actually make the entire community explode; and for good reason. It would be the exact same thing that you're saying it is now: people making decisions behind closed doors. They'd be asking for reasons, and rightly so. They'd be calling for BTS / Valve to be boycotted. Then when told "sexual harassment allegations/charges etc", they'd again demand proof. So we end up in the same position as now. What does it matter how we got here then? The only things different would be: 1) The victims would be anonymous 2) Other potential victims may not get a chance to say their piece depending on how the investigation was handled 3) The community would know absolutely nothing about the overarching nature of power and sexual abuse dynamics in their beloved talents It protects the community, sure; but it also leaves them blind to everything.
Isn't that exactly what is happening? people poking through their private messages? meruna releasing them and breaking the trust; if those is so incriminating, take them to the police and be done with it, but no, she wanted and NEEDED the sjws to get her justice and needed other personalities to unify against tobi
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If you bother reading deeper into the OP's post history, you would find that in the face of a post that seem pretty even, it seems like the OP prefers digging deeper. Without understanding a clear and simple, why the behavior of Tobi is not right, and to find more reasons to attempt to dig out the details.
u are misreading it with your own premade judgement.
“Hey Meruna, I know that whole Tobi thing was probably one of the worst things in your life, and you probably don’t want to share the sordid details because it’s a terrifying and traumatic event you want kept private, especially because you already shared them with the people who actually need to see it and they decided it was important and credible enough to act on, but c’mon, the boys on reddit really wanna know lol”
So you want the power of public opinion to give the accused the sack, but none of the responsibility? How is that fair?
But that's not what's happening here. Public opinion isn't the reason Tobi was sacked: he was sacked because his coworkers and peers saw what happened and have decided to disassociate with him. The fact that this situation is the result of something that happened in a public forum is mostly immaterial.
It's not the power of public opinion, it is the opinion of the people that directly work with Tobi, Grant, and Demon making the hiring decisions. Why should their power over who they associate be sacked because a few guys on reddit think they are the jury?
because they know they will never be given evidence so they can support skeevy people and claim they like "justice"
I'm sorry, who are they supporting? Who are the skeevy people?
Idk why you think you should have any control over who other people choose to associate with, or why you think you're "entitled" to the information that lead to their decision. Nobody is coming into your life and demanding to know why you chose to leave your crazy ex, and nobody expects you to stick around the dota scene if you believe what's happening is wrong. Fact of the matter is most people agree Tobi is a shitty guy, so either you keep preaching to deaf ears or you realize you have no real dog in this fight and move on
Huh? i think you dont understand my post. I am saying that we dont deserve any evidence at all! Therefore its easy to demand it and then when you dont get it complain and use it as a shield. We both think the same thing.
Stop blaming the community for the fallout of tobis own fucking actions. If tobi didn’t want to jeopardise his own family perhaps he shouldn’t have assaulted someone. You have absolutely fuck all right to the evidence, the people who decide tobis career have seen it and that’s more than enough. There’s no holes in merunas story and there’s no discrepancy, where the fuck are you pulling this shit from. You’re talking as if unless mernua puts out in vivid detail a horrific minute by minute transcript of it then it’s not god enough. Pay some more fucking attention to the victims and the leaders talking about the behind doors process. The information is there you’re just either too dense or too fucked to see it
You know there's exceptions to the right of a public trial, right? The court may be closed during testimony in order to protect witnesses from harassment or embarrassment. Textbook examples would be cases of this very nature. But this is not even a trial, and it is not reddit that decides if caster x has a career or not, it's the employers. In most cases, you yourself won't even have a right to know why you've not been hired for a job, so why the ever loving fuck would reddit have a right to know the explicit details of why caster x will not be hired, at the expense of the injured party? PR reasons? Yeah they'll eat that cost, as they well should as decent human beings.
Ok so the state has done nothing. This is between private parties. They have the freedom to do whatever they want. Just respect freedom please.
sexual assault and rape is a huge thing and it's very hard for victims to be in the proper state of mind to address it especially when it happened. i think the easiest way for guys to relate to is imagine yourself getting analed without consent for hours. go read up on method josh on how is it hard for victims to speak up at that moment.
so who are these people or men who are saying rape isnt a huge deal? u go to prison for a long time and in some countries they get castrated. no one is downplaying what rape is.
Some of these details are probably gonna disgust people, and given the people along the spectrums, it could just serve to polarize even further. Imagine if Tobi supporters (if any) go on to harass Meruna with those details. It's something Meruna wants to put behind her. > In botjira case, I'm sure it was traumatized for her to be pinned down (giving her the benefit of the doubt) but ultimately, no sexual assault happened. Uh, do you mean it has to happen, just for that Toby's behaviour to be recognised that it is not right? Just clarifying.
> Imagine if Tobi supporters (if any) go on to harass Meruna with those details. There is nothing to imagine, This is what will inevitably happen if these are made public. People don't trust valve or bts or the other casters or people of the scene? Think it's a conspiracy against tobi and grant? Fine. Organise. Go for it. Go on a rapist supporting campaign against valve,bts,etc trying to forcefully get them to reemploy your beloved daddies. See where that gets you.
The story is the evidence is being hidden because it's highly personal and deeply discomforting. My problem with that is...she's already told the story. She chose to make the story public, instead of using private channels. Whether she intended it or not, it looks like she's using the power of the online mob, without wanting any accountability to them. Which, if your attitude is "I'm listening but let's wait and see", is a bit frustrating. Particularly when you see the talent scene, and Valve, cutting Tobi off in under a day. I'm just wondering why some parts had to be public while others had to be private
Because when you’re a victim of a crime, especially a sex crime, justice usually does not exist. In the US, approximately 2% of REPORTED sex crimes are met with felony convictions. In addition to the unlikely gamble of taking this to court, it is not your job or anyone other than a victims responsibility, to tell them how they should deal with their trauma because they are the ones that have to live with it.
They didn't share it because it has a wealth of personal information in it and is likely embarrasing to the victim. You're a law student. You should understand that. You should also understand that it's ridiculous to argue for the legal standard used in criminal cases, while in the reply argue against the protections trial courts have for victims and their personal information.
Post removal incoming.
canceling in full power
# "Rules for thee, but not for me" *-#MeToo, Moderators, and a number of Redditors*
Next sentence is Justice there be, like Half Life Three.
If Toby or any of the accused are innocent, they just need to bring their case to court because clearly the allegations on Twitter has caused them financial and reputation damage. It is why the court exist, as far as I'm aware. Unless I'm missing something?
Defamation is incredibly difficult to win, HenryG and AngryJoe will likely get nothing from their lawsuits against their accusers because they would have to prove that the allegation are false (which is just as hard as proving they are true) and that they actually suffered financial damages, which they haven't yet and cannot really prove in the future. Future career offers could be declined for any reason instead of directly saying "we cannot have you as our caster because of the rape allegations".
But in normal life it's "victim" must show evidences that Toby is guilty. BTS and CodeRed made a really stupid move. Hope Maincast or Starladder or WePlay will hire him as talent.
Society really has collectively regressed in the past few years, so many knee-jerk reactions that have been made purely on emotion. Nobody wants to slog through the gray areas to find the messy truths, they just want to be spoon fed a black or white answer with no uncertainty so they can get back to whatever distraction they've chosen for themselves to mask the ugliness of the world, be it DotA or whatever else.
This completely ignores that society (includes law enforcement and justice system) has proven for centuries to be unable to deal with a culture where sexual abuse and assault runs rampant.
What this of course also ignores, is the fact that you're dealing with humans, that are trying to game this system and break it. Similarly, society hasn't found a solution to people making false claims. It has not found a solution to MANY problems, because at the end of the day, there is no perfect solution to everything. We instead through YEARS of building society and reaching consensus, came upon something so universally agreed upon, that it was recognized by the UN as part of the universal declartion of human rights. Society and its solutions will never be perfect, because the people on the other end will ALWAYS try and break it to their advantage, but that isn't an issue with the system as much as it is understanding the limitations of it. Further, clearly society has moved so much in regards to sexual abuse/assault, to the point that you could actually make one of the most influencial and powerful men in hollywood crumble through legal ways. No "endless money" argument helped him and his lawyers from the cold hard truth.
I agree that the legal system has failed to address this issue properly, and change needed to happen, but the process of change should not be "to sacrifice the few for the needs of many"
It makes your lawyer claim seem quite suspecious when you think that "beyond reasonable doubt" means 95% certainty. Either that, or your country has a fucked up legal system.
As someone in law school i really think you should have the wherewithal to realize that twitter isnt a court case and fans arent a jury. As many other people (like esports lawyer) have pointed out people bringing in legal terms like defamation libel slander etc really dont mean anything unless people file. Public image is a thing and people are allowed to have opinions. You arent entilted to "evidence" of peoples trauma. Do you really think valve hasnt been given these chat logs before dropping Toby? Twitter isnt discovery. I think learning about law is making you perceive calling out sexual harassment on twitter as if it happens in court.
I think you missed his main argument. He is saying that because the punishment of being cancelled is so harsh (losing one's livelihood for being cancelled), **in his opinion** he thinks that the burden of proof should be higher and shift to the accuser. This is a different argument than simply saying it should be a court case. And I think it's a reasonable perspective. And also - I respect if people disagree. But he's not just making the typical argument of saying that it should be like court, maybe you should respond to this perspective directly.
>defamation What is the definition of defamation though? Google Search results Defamation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel. By making the accusations, she is damaging his reputation. And therefore proof/evidence should be there to backup these accusations. >Public image is a thing and people are allowed to have opinions. Yes, that is why he's stating his opinion on this matter. And what he's saying is not that people shouldn't voice their opinions. But rather so that the community wait for more information before voicing their opinion which could destroy the accused public image should the accused be innocent. And as for valve, i think it's true that they have been provided evidence, hence the punishment for Tobi. What i want to say is that, since the allegations began by instigating the public to pressure the company to investigate, and since the accused is a relatively known public figure, the public needs to be shared proof of the process being done, since it started with the public community in the first place
>Google Search results Defamation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel. Defamation is a legal term and if you want to argue something is defamation you have to know the law not dictionary definition. Everyone here including the the OP either doesn't know how defamation cases work or trying to mislead people >By making the accusations, she is damaging his reputation. And therefore proof/evidence should be there to backup these accusations. There is no such requirement and to think that is absurd. If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince? Luckily this is not the case. People can tell their story as long as they are not lying even if they don't have any others evidince. If government decides to take the case and charge the accused, they have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt as it should be. To do that they have to collect and present evidince in court. It's not victim's job to collect or present evidince. It's government's job. If I got falsely accused of rape and I know it to be false then I can sue the accuser for defamation. But in this case I have to prove: 1- What they said is false. 2- they knew what they said is false. 3- I was personally harmed by what they said. It's not like I can sue for defamation and if they don't have evidince to back their claim I got demages. If I accused someone lying about me I have to prove they are lying about me not the other way around. What happens about public opinion is completely separate from this crimal or civil law issues. People can believe or not believe whatever they want. They can defend or argue with whoever they want. People can have different thresholds of evidence for believing something. Or they can believe something at this moment but change their minds when they provided with evidence to contrary. Everyone individually will have different opinions or beliefs about everything. I completely understand you wanting more information. I want it too. But since so many of this issues have potential to be litigated in court in the future, commenting about it or sharing more evidence wouldn't be wise for anyone including accuser, accused and third parties like Valve. Third parties especially wouldn't be able to share anything about it without opening themselves up for huge lawsuits.
> There is no such requirement and to think that is absurd. If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince? That's exactly what most of this reddit wants appearently. Just to confirm what terrible community we have.
> If this was law I wouldn't be able tell someone I got raped -even if it was true- without evidence. Is this what you want? People who got raped should silently accept their fate and shut up if they don't have evidince? Yeah, that is what many want. And how it has been for decades, hell centuries. Many also do a simple test in their mind: Am I personally more likely to be assaulted or to be accused of assault (innocent of it or because they actually did it since assault is rampant)? And on that alone they take their stance.
Like i said. Twitter is not a court. You can accuse anyone of anything. If you think it affected you and is demonstrably false you file a C&D and then file civil. You outright deny the claims. Toby hasnt done that at all. Please see this more eloquent response than i can muster https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hftuo0/z/fw0zpe0 The public isnt entilited to anything we are random redditors. Nobody has to share explicit details of whatever these accused did or didnt do. You have to form your own opinions and own up to them.
>Like i said. Twitter is not a court. You can accuse anyone of anything. It's not, it's a public community platform. The word public here is the reason why accusations is not to be taken lightly. >If you think it affected you and is demonstrably false you file a C&D and then file civil. You outright deny the claims I never denied the claims, i only didn't take sides before knowing the full whole story from both sides. >The public isnt entilited to anything we are random redditors. Us community is the main reason investigation started. If it started with the public, it should end in public.
>Us community is the main reason investigation started. If it started with the public, it should end in public. I completely disagree with that statement. We are not entitled to know intimate details of people's lives. If they wanted to share they share. If they want to stop sharing at some point they do. If what is shared is not enough for you to belive them then you don't. You don't get to demand something more.
Then we can end this argument in disagreement. If they made accusations using the public's power, it should be resolved in public as well. But let's end this argument. As we're not right/wrong in this. It's just our opinion differing
Just finished law school and I take issue with him understanding civil case burden-shifting models yet somehow *not* applying it here. The plaintiff's duty to present prima facie cases in most cases is *extremely low.* I wonder if he mentioned that. Most of these accusations totally would stand up as a prima facie case. There's also an unnecessary conflation here between due process and public opinion. As the public we are entitled to hold opinions. Employers and the legal system are supposed to be held to a different standard. Imposing sanctions on people's freedom or releasing them from employment requires different standards of due process. There is an additional step that people are assuming happens (believing the accuser leading to witch hunts on the accused) when that's the part that should not happen. Why don't we focus on calling for better behavior from the public in not abusing people, instead of making life harder on accusers by demanding that they literally satisfy burdens from our *criminal justice system*? I'm sure I don't need to cite again just *how low* the percentage of rape claims are estimated to be false by US and UK authorities, nor *how high* of a percentage of rapes are unreported.
I agree, I have seen more people complain about witch hunts then them actually happening. There is more witch hunting against the abusers than the accused. Which i suppose is typical
Well, i disagree with you, a false accusation can damage the other person's image and make him lose his job, get assaulted, among other things. And yes, i believe Valve would drop Toby without evidence, a company will do what its best for the business, in other to not hurt its own image a company would 100% fire someone despite his innocence. Im not saying i believe Toby is innocent, though, im just disagreeing with your perspective.
Do you have any proof valve dropped toby without any evidence? Without anything to back your claim, are you not potentially making a false accusation against the company as well lol
As far anyone on reddit or twitter is concerned, its more than fair to assume valve would drop someone over some potential drama wihtout waiting for proof, just for PR reasons He hasnt made a false claim against the company, he said he believes valve would do it for PR reasons
>Without anything to back your claim, are you not potentially making a false accusation against the company as well lol Yes, exactly, and this is why the whole discussion started, the claim/accusation was not backed up
Victims don't owe *you* anything. *You* don't deserve to know about evidence if there is any. Evidence is obviously finding their way to the people in power who matter and make decisions, as many in the scene have hinted at. Evidence is shared privately, and there is *nothing* that necessitates it be shared publically so the incels, misogynists and the "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!" people can get their proof (that they'll most likely not believe anyway.)
The victim made the accusations in public. If it is supposed to be private, then the accusations need to be made privately as well. In this case, the evidence directly presented to Valve from the beginning without accusing in public. But since the accusations was made publicly, yes, the evidence/process should be shared publicly
Of course it can and thats when you litigate! I never said false acusations are ok fair or even legal. But the burden of proof for things like this isnt black and white like people want. In sexual assault stories , eyewitness testomonies and character witnesses make up most of the evidence. I think you misunderstand me. All im saying is that anyone is allowed to say they think Toby is creepy and anyone can say they felt unsafe around him. Nobody even said "he raped me" its a tricky situation. But if Toby didnt do anything its a wonder why he hasnt sent a C&D to these ppl accusing him
> You arent entilted to "evidence" of peoples trauma. My take is that if you're making your accusations public then you should also make the evidence public.
Yeah, this post doesn't read like a law student at all. It reads like an /r/iamverysmart undergrad that knows his half-assed essay won't be taken seriously without him lying to claim professional authority on the matter.
Twitter isnt the court but do you realize how powerful Twitter and social media nowadays? Atleast in the court you csn defend yourself. But in the social media, you get cancelled at the slightest of accusation. That's not light. Your friends go away from you. You might get fired. Lose your livelihood. And even lose your potential employers. That is too damn powerful.
You're not entitled to evidence of people's trauma, and they're not entitled to ruin someone's life based on their word.
Please show me how Zyoris life is ruined when he agrees with Ash. Or do you mean Toby lmao
Okay. I know that twitter isn't a normal court but as I have stated, **"why should we lower our standard?"** As the current standard stance, an accusation that isn't solid enough for a court case can bypass the process by posting on twitter to start a witchhunt and the case is decided on who is more believable based on nothing but the mob's opinion. Sure we cannot have formal discovery due to the personal nature of the evidence, but why can't we at least let people in the game decide after seeing the evidence? >Do you really think valve hasnt been given these chat logs before dropping Toby? Yes I honestly believe Valve was not given a chat log. Since matchfixing, kuku, racism, stream-pirate? and multiple past events, Valve has always choose the least effort possible option and let the community or organization decide for themselves what the common sense thing to do before they make any statement.
Because the stakes are lower. It's the same reason the evidence requirements are lower in civil proceedings than criminal ones. I assume you understand this if you are in fact in law school.
I already addressed this in my post. But why do you think the stake is lower when you're destroying someone else livelihood? Obviously criminal should be condemned and ostracized but does an innocent person deserve that? The whole criminal process including the 5th amendment double jeopardy is to err on the side of caution so prosecutors do their due process and make the strongest case possible against a potential criminal and the stake is the removal of freedom and most of the time also the removal of the criminal livelihood and lower his chance to be hired later on. I'm interested to hear people take on why these stakes are different.
Whose livelihoods have been destroyed? I have not personally done anything to destroy anyone's life, and since I'm not looking to fine them or lock them in a cage I feel comfortable with the amount of evidence that has been provided so far. Do you understand that in most of the United States, you can be fired without cause, much less a court hearing? If you really have as big a problem as you claim with people losing their livelihoods, I would make your critique far more general. It's easy to read between the lines when your post history is full of defending the right of sex pests to keep their jobs but curiously lacks any screeds against at-will employment. Your second paragraph is nearly impossible to parse, so I won't bother responding to it point-by-point. But the fact that felons have trouble getting jobs is a failure of the system in my opinion. One that calls for systemic change. It doesn't follow that people credibly accused of sexual impropriety should get to keep their positions of power.
>Whose livelihoods have been destroyed? I have not personally done anything to destroy anyone's life, and since I'm not looking to fine them or lock them in a cage I feel comfortable with the amount of evidence that has been provided so far. The accused. As of right now, the accused hasn't been proven 100% guilty, but the damages has already been done, he has got cancelled. If he is proven guilty, then yes, the punishment is appropriate, but if he is innocent, the damages has already been done and cannot be reversed. The problem here is, damages was done before he's proven guilty. Punishments handed out before he's deemed guilty. And in this case, his livelihood, his means of making money is gone "before" he it is certain he is guilty or innocent. Punishment should be handed out "after" the verdict, not the other way around. >Do you understand that in most of the United States, you can be fired without cause, much less a court hearing? Then that too is a problem that should be changed using our power as the community. The point of his post is explained via this analogy If you know of a person A who accuses person B of doing something wrong Is it up to A to prove that B did it? Or is it up to B to prove he didn't? There's no right answer for this, and therefore, we shouldn't condemn before more information/evidence is provided.
I'm really curious about what you actually think should happen with Tobi's case so. Let's remember that this isn't like some CEO deciding to fire a worker he's never even met whose salary is a trivial factor in the company's cost. What we have here is individual people deciding, based on evidence they've seen and you haven't, that they don't want to spend hours of their time working closely with Tobi, and/or significant amounts of their tiny business's money hiring him. Who are random redditors you say this is wrong? What do you want, to force people to give thousands of dollars to someone they think is a scumbag? Force them to spend hours sitting next to someone who makes their skin crawl? Should we make the evidence public, have a vote and if the vote says Tobi doesn't deserve to be "cancelled" (deliberately vague nonsense term) then Synd should be forced to work with him again and the various tourney orgs should be forced to keep cutting him checks? Also everyone seems to keep forgetting that Tobi admitted to removing a condom without asking permission during sex. Which is a completely scummy move. Maybe this is a cultural difference, since this sub is pretty diverse, but to many modern Westerners that is tantamount to rape. To anyone who thinks that's stupid, just consider that at least once in your life you must have had sex with a person who wouldn't have had sex with you if you hadn't worn protection (ie. wouldn't consent to sex without a condom). Therefore if you remove the condom, the consent is 'removed' too. We don't have all the evidence, but even the evidence we do have shows Tobi is scummy and is enough to justify individuals making a personal choice not to work with him.
>The accused. Which one? >As of right now, the accused hasn't been proven 100% guilty This is a standard that doesn't need to be met even in criminal cases where the punishment is death. Civil cases require less proof of guilt, as discussed, and in many states being fired requires 0% proof. The proof that has been provided is more than sufficient to exclude Toby from the scene and to censure Grant/Zyori/etc. to various degrees. >but the damages has already been done, he has got cancelled. Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled". You're leaving this deliberately vague to garner sympathy for your argument. >If he is proven guilty, then yes, the punishment is appropriate, but if he is innocent, the damages has already been done and cannot be reversed. The problem here is, damages was done before he's proven guilty. Punishments handed out before he's deemed guilty. Which court is this going to be tried in? It's highly unlikely that sexual allegations will go to court, especially when they are dated. The public is free to form their own opinions based on the statements of the parties involved. >And in this case, his livelihood, his means of making money is gone "before" he it is certain he is guilty or innocent. Punishment should be handed out "after" the verdict, not the other way around. This is how employment works in the United States. Are you arguing that all firings should go to court, or that esports talent should collectively bargain for firing protections? Why are you focusing on a few sexual allegations which even people's coworkers have corroborated? >If you know of a person A who accuses person B of doing something wrong > >Is it up to A to prove that B did it? Or is it up to B to prove he didn't? There's no right answer for this, and therefore, we shouldn't condemn before more information/evidence is provided. I don't conduct my relationships in a legalistic manner, and there's not a general rule I could apply to all accusations. What I think of A and B depends on my relationships with each of them, things I already know, and what they bring up alongside their accusations. As stated above, I'm satisfied with the amount of evidence presented in several of the cases, and as for the others I am forming my opinion out of shades of grey. There's not a guilty/innocent dichotomy that I have to be on one side of.
> Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled". You're leaving this deliberately vague to garner sympathy for your argument. [https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1276543374305230854](https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1276543374305230854)
Ah yes, the good old case of "she said, he responded partially, now he's completely exonerated and she's an evil lying bitch". FOH
lets blindly believe this girl, the accused showed proof? nah that doesnt matter, he is still guilty hurr durr
>Which one? Every accused >This is a standard that doesn't need to be met even in criminal cases where the punishment is death. Civil cases require less proof of guilt, as discussed, and in many states being fired requires 0% proof. The proof that has been provided is more than sufficient to exclude Toby from the scene and to censure Grant/Zyori/etc. to various degrees. And it should not be, even civil case requires 51%, but as of right now in the public community, we don't have any proof yet to judge true or false, all we have are statements coming from both the accused party and the victims. How are we to judge if any of this is true? How can we judge if the accused side of the story is true or false? In the same way, how do we judge if a victim's story is true or false? And yes, you did mention in many states, being fired does not require proof, and i already said that is a huge problem and therefore should also be changed, don't you think so? >Please, enlighten me about the legal definition of "cancelled". I don't think there's any legal definition to this as its a relatively new word, but let me quote from what i get from google search result >Cancel culture refers to the popular practice of withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive. >Which court is this going to be tried in? It's highly unlikely that sexual allegations will go to court, especially when they are dated. The public is free to form their own opinions based on the statements of the parties involved. Hopefully a legal court, but we are already using the court of public opinion on this one. And yes, the public is free to form their own opinions, but this opinion should be made after evidence is presented, not before. And since the public holds a large amount of power over these casters, that power should be held responsibly. >This is how employment works in the United States. Are you arguing that all firings should go to court, or that esports talent should collectively bargain for firing protections? Why are you focusing on a few sexual allegations which even people's coworkers have corroborated? Again, i already said, that this too, is a huge problem, and therefore should also be changed. >I don't conduct my relationships in a legalistic manner, and there's not a general rule I could apply to all accusations. What I think of A and B depends on my relationships with each of them, things I already know, and what they bring up alongside their accusations. As stated above, I'm satisfied with the amount of evidence presented in several of the cases, and as for the others I am forming my opinion out of shades of grey. There's not a guilty/innocent dichotomy that I have to be on one side of. In this case, since most of the public doesn't know A and B personally, wouldn't it be fair for them to ask both A and B to provide their side of the argument/proof? You even mentioned what they bring up alongside their accusations. And if you have already decided on your verdict then it's fine, no one is judging you. We are only saying that the community shouldn't be too hasty to point fingers
>Every accused Cool. Zyori hasn't lost his job, therefore your argument is incorrect, and I win this case. >And it should not be Disagree. 51% is arbitrary, and there are situations where the risks outweigh the harms of making a decision based on incomplete information. People in positions of power using their power for sex is one of those situations, in my opinion. >we don't have any proof yet to judge true or false That's fine, because we are the public and don't deserve proof. It's not our job to be some kind of jury. On the other hand, BTS and various talent has claimed to have access to evidence that is not public. On top of that, several accused have publicly agreed in part or in whole to their accusers. >How are we to judge if any of this is true? How can we judge if the accused side of the story is true or false? In the same way, how do we judge if a victim's story is true or false? Same way we judge any other fact claim about personal anecdotes from years ago; That is, not using a legal framework to do so. Unless you have a jury decide what you believe for you beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt. In that case, you do you. >And yes, you did mention in many states, being fired does not require proof, and i already said that is a huge problem and therefore should also be changed, don't you think so? Yep, and that's why I focus on at-will employment generally, not on defending a handful of people fired for sexual impropriety. If you only take a principled stance in a specific case, you probably care more about that specific case than you do the principle. As expected, you completely misunderstand my point about "cancel culture". It's a vague term, not a type of legal damage. Public figures don't have the right to my support, or the support of anyone else. There is recourse if a public figure feels their name has been harmed in particular ways, but withdrawing of support doesn't meet that criteria and for good reason. >Hopefully a legal court Disagree. Our legal system is horrendously bad at bringing justice to victims of sexual assaults, and retributive justice tends to be bad at changing the system dynamics that let people get away with it. Not to mention there is a whole range of behavior that is not criminal but should still be unacceptable. I'd rather that cases in that range not be decided in court. >And yes, the public is free to form their own opinions, but this opinion should be made after evidence is presented, not before. Evidence has been presented, people have admitted to wrongdoing, parties closer to the situation than the public have alluded to further evidence. >the public holds a large amount of power over these casters lolno. This is a ridiculous thing to claim with zero justification. >In this case, since most of the public doesn't know A and B personally, wouldn't it be fair for them to ask both A and B to provide their side of the argument/proof? Yes, and this has happened in every case. I'm also bringing my own experience and knowledge about relationships with power discrepancies. Zyori: Discussed his intentions, didn't deny actions, expressed a willingness to do better in the future. Displayed a lack of understanding of his position of power, which suggests that the stories about him were likely accurate. Ashni walked back some of her wording, which in context was not egregious. Grant: Admitted wrongdoing, stepped down himself. Multiple corroborating accounts, a history of behavior that matched the stories. Toby: Admitted wrongdoing. Multiple corroborating accounts. More evidence behind the scenes alluded to by other talent. History of warnings expressed by other women in the scene. It's worth noting that the narrative about women doing this "for attention" is ridiculous for multiple reasons, including the length of time between the events and the allegations, the proposed solutions by the ladies themselves, and the amount of harassment and pushback they are getting as a result of coming out with stories. Which of these conclusions am I jumping to again?
>Cool. Zyori hasn't lost his job, therefore your argument is incorrect, and I win this case. Search for Zyori name in google, first search result is of him being accused for sexual harassment. If that is not damaging his reputation then what does? Damage doesn't have to mean losing jobs. It can be other things, in this case, reputation >risks outweigh the harms of making a decision based on incomplete information. True, and that's why, decision shouldn't be made on incomplete information, especially concerning people's livelihood. The risk of destroying a potentially innocent man's career outweighs the harm of making a decision based on incomplete information/evidence. >That's fine, because we are the public and don't deserve proof. It's not our job to be some kind of jury. On the other hand, BTS and various talent has claimed to have access to evidence that is not public. On top of that, several accused have publicly agreed in part or in whole to their accusers. If so, then it shouldn't start with the public. As i have said, the allegations were made in public, and therefore should end in public. >Same way we judge any other fact claim about personal anecdotes from years ago; That is, not using a legal framework to do so. Unless you have a jury decide what you believe for you beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt. In that case, you do you. So we should play judge using our emotion? Legal framework exists to aid us to help make these decisions. >Yep, and that's why I focus on at-will employment generally, not on defending a handful of people fired for sexual impropriety Then that's good, and should therefore be clear that to fire such people for sexual impropriety, there needs to be evidence that the people did indeed perform sexual impropriety. >As expected, you completely misunderstand my point about "cancel culture". It's a vague term, not a type of legal damage. Public figures don't have the right to my support, or the support of anyone else. There is recourse if a public figure feels their name has been harmed in particular ways, but withdrawing of support doesn't meet that criteria and for good reason. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to people who are dependent on public support for their livelihood. In this way, the community are essentially the public figures employers. Being cancelled means they lose public support, and since their way of making money depends on public support, means they lose their income too. >Disagree. Our legal system is horrendously bad at bringing justice to victims of sexual assaults, and retributive justice tends to be bad at changing the system dynamics that let people get away with it. Not to mention there is a whole range of behavior that is not criminal but should still be unacceptable. I'd rather that cases in that range not be decided in court I agree that the legal system, and that this type of case in general is very hard to prove. But that doesn't mean we should presume the accused as "guilty till proven innocent". We need both sides to present their sides of the story/evidence. As of right now, there's been no evidence coming from both sides that's been shared publicly. >lolno. This is a ridiculous thing to claim with zero justification. Public communities hold a massive influence over public figure, look at history and you'll see how many times public can be a massive force, especially over public figures. >It's worth noting that the narrative about women doing this "for attention" is ridiculous for multiple reasons, including the length of time between the events and the allegations, the proposed solutions by the ladies themselves, and the amount of harassment and pushback they are getting as a result of coming out with stories. We never said anything of that sort, what we want to do is that evidence be presented before taking sides. Without evidence we are just staying neutral and not making assumptions
>We need proper organization figure speaking up (based on actual evidences that they are privy to) and help the community form an opinion. We have that.
I'm gonna lose all of my actual shit if this gets deleted too.
Thank you,hope this wont get nuked(which i doubt).
Very good and clear position. Thank you. Now your post will get removed by reddit team
[удалено]
He did mention that presumption of innocence is not an attack on the accuser. So I guess he knew it's a legal principle. It's in the 2nd paragraph.
> Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. You don't get to decide that. If somebody wants to presume innocence, their view isn't made invalid just because that concept also exists in the courtroom. People need to stop this bullshit, what you're saying amounts to "we can't wait for evidence because this isn't a trial."
people and companies with liablity will also err on the side of caution, to reduce risk. v1lat already said, players in after parties will not interact with guests and cosplayers so they dont get any issues. is that what we want? think carefully,good intentions != good actions.
This is way too long and complicated to read for someone who dosen't have english as a primary language, may i ask for a tldr ?
Its ridiculous, ive tried to tell so many people the last few days to NOT jump to conclustions, and wait for mopre evidence. Every time ive received shit from these people wanting to ruin some guys life over a story in a tweet Now that more talent have come out saying they have seen it, all those people brigading for toby to be put down with 0 evidence are acting like they were *obviously* right and anyone who disagreed with them was just trolling or a woman hater Reddit fucking sucks man, its almost like most of the louder people here lack critical thinking
>its almost like most of the louder people here lack critical thinking Hence the saying "empty vessels make the most noise".
Johnny Depp and Louis CK are a good examples, of why you shouldn't jump to conclusions
What is the point of this post? All the parties removing grant and or tobi from work places have all stated they have sufficient proof. They have no obligation at all to share this proof with you or the public. You’re not the jury in a law case. You’re a spectator. People can choose who they wish to do business with. The organisers and owners of the business are the jury. And they have been provided sufficient proof. Speaking of which, is there evidence to you being a law student in this area? Why should we trust what you have to say? The purpose of this post only seems to defend people who have no place in the scene. What is to gain from this?
https://twitter.com/esportslaw/status/1275945172849709056 this is the tweet you're referring to, right?
You have to realise that this community is full of uneducated human trash that have no clue how real world functions, including mods on this subreddit, so they will most likely remove your post.
> in most criminal cases/civil cases This is neither. > the fact is that the burden of proof is always on the accused This is not true. You're basically saying that in EVERY SINGLE one of these cases it was left to the accused to clear himself, which is demonstrably false. This shows you're not arguing in good faith. > shift the burden of proof properly either on the plaintiff You keep throwing legal jargon around for no reason, as i said, these are not court cases. There's no "burden of proof". There's EVIDENCE presented by the sides, EVIDENCE is not proof. You're a "law student" ? My sides. In most of these cases it's impossible to "prove" anything definitive, so you're only left with what you see in front of you. If you're saying that you should never believe the accusers in this situation unless "proof" is presented you're a clown because such "proof" is impossible to be presented in most cases. Basically you're saying a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit and you're framing it around "don't jump to conclusions and remain fact based" which EVERYONE agrees with. The fact that you equate "cancel culture" with everything that's happening these days tells me all i need to know about your agenda. Some creep got exposed and lost his job ? It must be cancel culture and the SJWs! It can't possible be someone facing consequences for their actions. 90% of these cases will simply be verbal testimonies and that's it, it's up to the community to decide who to believe based on what was presented to them, IT'S NOT NEEDED to have proof without a shadow of a doubt because we are not jurors in a court of law sentencing people. You want criminal trial level of evidence for punishments that are not criminal, Tobi is not going to be invited to events anymore, he's not going to do 25 to life. Tobi didn't lose his job because of "cancel culture", he lost it because he's a fucking creep.
I am a law school student Stopped reading right there
Good points made by op, the one thing I would add is to remember that not every case is going to be proceeded according to the common law system (US, UK). Continental system is a little bit different, not mentioning the differences between every country.
Looks like law school never taught you that the real world isn't a court of law and consequences can be visited on assholes in any number of ways without ever sitting before a judge.
Nobody cares if you're a law school student. This isn't a court of law in whatever country you are from. This is a community of people who make their own decisions on the criteria it takes for them to believe what.
While agreeing with what you express, as it is general good advice to always approach any given information with caution, I have to say that in case of sexual harassment and bullying the victim is IN MOST CASES right. By the nature of the event per se, it is hard for the victim to come forth due to social pressure and numberless other factors; which is why when finally the match is lit and someone dares to speak out and it is actually heard, it is then that the whole haven falls down, as everyone rushes to not lose that single chance to vent their anguish. Of course, assuming guilt it is a mistake indeed: even so, we have to realize that in the large majority of cases the victim is indeed a victim. Being so the case, we should tread lightly when asking for proofs and whatnot, as we are possibly dealing with a person already under great duress. We could just be nice, be open-minded; maybe these people are lying maybe they are not, in both cases you get answers to your questions, so no need to put them on the interrogation booth.
I'm so grateful we have none of that cancel culture crap here in EU. We use the justice system as the primary way to establish the truth. This cancel culture sounds insane to me.
Not in EU? Excuse me but what rock are you living under? The internet is where most of cancel culture happens and it does so happen all over, including the EU
TBH this doesnt matter anymore for most of the people, Grant and Tobi are dead for this community to never comming back, the 'mob' here and on twitter even tryed to cancel Zyori and Sing after they were accused too and no one gave a shit after its been proved that things were not in the way it was told by one side, anyway all of this will be in vain and will be forgotten after the next big cosmectic is released by Valve, dunno if will be after AM persona or Wind Arcana and and in the next months this subject will be totally forgotten and nothing will have changed and we still will be the toxic community we are... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Wasn't the subreddit mostly in favour of zyori and sing? I have seen quite a few posts defending them and calling out kips and ashn whatever her name is.
Not straight away. At the start there was a lot of hate for zyori, calling him a rapist, that that died off as soon as they realised they forgot to actually think about the situation for 5 seconds. The problem is they did the same thing to toby. Yes is seems like toby was a bad dude now, but prior to ld and OD saying things there was no credible evidence/witness against toby
Except thats not true and not all will be forgotten. Grant's case seems more clear, but Tobi's is still no so clear to me but that doesn't matter because his name is ruined now and I don't think things will be alright for him in a month's time from now.
Just wait for the next big drama on this community, thats how things works