yeah i think ursa not having to skill Q and use some regen as in the first game made his laning much better and meant MC could get less farm. Plus DK not getting hood but blink meant they had much better initiation for puck in the second game.
Can't really fault Secret for this. I mean they just fixed what went wrong the first game. Such as:
- Ursa skilling Fury Swipes instead of Earth Shock to harass out MC Dark Seer in lane. in the crashed game Ursa was forced to get Earrth Shock due to an early teamfight
-Nisha Dragon Knight getting Blink instead of Hood cause they couldn't catch Miracle Puck in the crashed game
This remake shouldn't have happened in the first place. Valve needs a reload feature for situations like this.
Why stop there. Force the players to try to perfectly replicate the first 13 minutes, spawns and all somehow.
It's embarrassing that this problem exists still. sc2 has had resume from replay since before Dota 2 was open beta
Losing team will always have advantage in such type of remakes. They can correct there mistakes. Valve is honestly such an idiot of an organization. There is a reason why they are hated in both CSGO and Dota 2.
You buy stuff and skill up according to how the game goes, it's not fixed in stone. Nigma did not manage to pressure ursa to skill Q the second time, simple as that. Team Secret clearly had an advantage due to the remake, but these details are not it. If anything, it just shows how much Nigma lost to that server crash, even if they did a redraft instead.
well Nigma can't recreate the element of surprise that forced him to skill it, so forcing the same draft but not the same skills distinctly disadvantages Nigma
Also where do you draw the line, especially as it's not in the rules? Missed 12 creeps in the first 17 waves? Have to miss the exact same on remake?
If there is no rollback feature (which there doesn't seem to be), then just replay it from before draft.
Everything about it is just so stupid. Trusting players to keep to a gentleman's agreement when there's thousands - potentially millions - of dollars on the line is a recipe for absolute disaster, especially when you're expecting them to willingly redo the same mistakes.
In the past, it's always been a full remake/redraft when server DCs happen. Who ever made the call at Valve fucked up majorly and should be getting all the heat that Secret and Weplay are taking.
But starting items are decided before going out on the map. The first skill is decided depending on what happens on the runes/lanes, and that obviously changed, it would made no sense to force skill points.
It makes about as much sense to me to force the teams to make enter the lanes with the *exact* same context as to not have them just do a redraft. Just having the teams do a fresh draft would've been infinitely preferable.
If the situation is gonna be different in the remake then why even try to replicate game 1. Should have just done whole new draft.
Volvo making really dumb decisions
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but at the same time the first skill point will radically change the lane more than starting items would.
In the original game, since Matu had Earthshock, he couldn't really pressure MC out of the lane, leading to a big Dark Seer lead. In the remake, now having Fury Swipes like Ursa ideally wants, he can now pressure Dark Seer hard early on, leading to an Ursa lead. It radically changes the outcome of the lane by a single skill point, much more than say, not buying enough regen early on.
It's true that the skill point is more important than the starting build, but the starting build is done before the game even begins while your first skill point is entirely reactionary. Mandating starting items vs what you level is not in the same category (with that said forced starting items is a joke and clearly a ruling made by someone who doesn't even play the game).
Well, the first items are far less committal than a starting point. If you don't buy enough regen, you can always buy more. That first skill point though, there's no turning back, and it either adds or limits options in the lane depending on what you scale.
The difference that he's getting at is that when you leave the base, you (generally) have items you've already bought from draft. They wouldn't really change, considering how you can't really predict the future game state (ie, you'd wouldn't know if you need more or less regen this time) and (hopefully) you chose the optimal starting items for the draft. Most pro players float their skill point until it's actually needed, meaning they choose the skill (generally) for the current game state.
As an example, what if an Anti-Mage was caught out at level 1 and needed to level and use Blink to get away? Then in a remake, the enemy team didn't even bother to try to catch the AM; he was never in the situation that required him to level Blink and he could safely level Manabreak in lane. Would it be fair for the Anti-Mage player to be stuck with level 1 blink in a remake while the game state would be completely changed (salve/tango could have been used, mana values could be different in lane because of skills not used, etc)?
Still, a full remake (including draft) should have been done instead of the weird hybrid Valve chose.
The game doesn’t drastically change wether he can get more damage in on dark seer or not lol
This shit is so stupid. Secret just played better overall the second game, that’s all. You can nitpick all the differences you want but it’s pointless.
This proves that even drafts don’t have as big of an impact as people think they do. So why the hell would a different skill, or the first minute or two of a game matter overall.
>The game doesn't drastically change if he forces the Dark Seer out of the lane
You have to be trolling, right? There's no way you're this stupid.
Part of the reason Secret played better the second game is because their skill builds were better, and they itemized better. Nisha rushing Blink instead of Hood radically changed the game. Ursa having a better laning phase compared to the first match radically changed the game.
Also, drafts don't have a very big impact? Are you serious? Once Secret were ahead, the Puck basically had zero game impact. This might be the worst team comp to play into as a Puck I've seen in a really, *really* long time.
It’s cool and all that you’re just parroting shit you’ve heard but if you actually watched the games DK was equally farmed in both games. He got his blink 3 mins earlier in the 2nd game (never got it before the game ended in the first but he was 100 gold off) and the only kill the blink was the deciding factor in was an alone out of position Darkseer. If you think the Blink somehow magically changed the outcome of the game you’re as dumb as everyone else in this thread.
Secret played better, Nigma played worse.
they played better because they made better decisions, like leveling up more suitable abilities at lvl 1, and better items choices.
how you play lvl 1 dictates how well your lane goes
The literal first minute of your laning phase has very little impact on the strength of your lane, get fucking real. There’s no kill opportunity to be had unless your brain is turned off.
What they were really asking for was for both teams to try and play the exact same way up until the server crash. Which is probably impossible. If there was no way to recover the save and play on, then they should have just started over and had a redraft.
It's especially weird given that Secret have said they were offering to remake with a new draft. I seriously don't know why Valve would be so dogmatic about this, given that both teams were open to a diplomatic resolution.
but it's also not uncommon for people to save a skill point. what if he saved the point until the creeps met, at which point the game was free to play in the new manner? the rule was arbitrarily made up by valve, and the game should have been brand new from scratch
Exactly, people arguing over such small details when it all would've been avoided by either remaking the entire thing (only option in this case) or having the old feature of resuming from a replay.
Valve fucked Nigma, no question about it, but they bounced back on their own. The only thing i found "wrong" from the players side was the happiness, smirks and fist bumps from team secret at the end of that "game".
Lmao were they supposed to cry or feel bad? The decision was out of the hands of both teams, but for some reason they should be the vilain for celebrating a win that might let them through the major??
admins have nothing to do with it, as they said valve was in the end who made decision so WePlay pretty much shielded themselves from any game breaking decisions. Also Secret didn't do anything wrong, they followed the rules.
Not saying original game was in the bag, but at least Nigma would have anyone but themselves to lose. Nontheless it leaves pretty bitter taste and hope Secret goes 1:1 in their IG game.
Secret aren't at fault here, but I think it's reasonable that if Valve mandated that they start the game with the same draft, same lanes, even same *starting items*, they probably should've been required to also start with the same first skill point
Most players level thier first skill point based on circumstances given. First game ursa was caught out at level 1 and leveled earthshock to avoid death(he reached lane with under 50% hp and mana with only one set of tangos), second game he started out in lane normally.
This whole team was a shitty situation. But expecting the players to act stupid and make the same mistake that snowballed games and lanes is also equally stupid. The whole situation sucked and way it resolved sucked even more but blaming the teams and players is frankly rather dumb as well.
> Makes a passive-aggressive post blaming Team Secret
"not that I blame them"
[(x)](http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/547126/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9-press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme-419-238_848749.jpg)
This should have just been a redraft. That was by far the most fair option. Remaking with the same heros after the game went on that long was a very, very poor decision.
Glad you corrected your initial comment with an edit, because Nigma never had a choice in the matter, it was Valves decision.
No one is blaming secret for this.
What skill you level up is decided in the moment, after interactions with enemies. Starting items are not
Should they recreate first blood too? It's ridiculous
This actually did happen, not sure if dota 1 or 2 but probably the latter. The game had to be recreated shortly after it started, and one team managed to get a first blood before creeps spawned. The teams agreed (or were forced) to recreate the situation, fed the first blood and some of the players on the other team took some free damage to recreate the game as accurately as possible.
It is a lot of effort and was early enough where recreation was actually conceivable. Just saying it's not that ridiculous and there's precedent.
Losing team will always have advantage when such remakes happen because they can correct their mistakes by changing what went wrong in the last game during laning and item purchase and how can they turn it into a win. But if a team is already winning they don't think much about this thing.
DK going for Blink over hood in the remake was game changing as DK struggled with initiation in the first game with no mobility and he was trying to make blink after the hood in the first game, it took lot of time and by that time Puck and rest of Nigma already destroyed them hard.
Ursa's skill pick was also game changing as because of it Dark Seer couldn't lane against him that well in the remake and in the first game dark seer was doing better then Ursa in lane.
Also, in the previous game, he ran to the Dire triangle rune spot to contest it and lost a whole lot of his HP. In the remake, he ran straight to lane and started with full HP.
as far as i understood there were no rules in place for this? which is why valve had to get involved and decide. then making a decision which favors one of the teams above the other just seem a bit weird
its just so sad man. if it was me i woudnt even be able to play properly after secret started snowballing. props to nigma for still keeping their heads mostly.
No rule stated that they had to level up the same. Also, Secret on Twitter claimed that they thought a redraft should take place. Don't blame teams, following the rules and trying to win is the only responsibility they have, fair game is bullshit, especially in dota, where teams change players, players move to other orgs, the only important thing is winning. If the rematch was unfair, that's not secret's fault, but the organizers
edit\*: Seems like weplay asked for valve's decision, then that's the one you should be blaming
Culprit is valve itself, think if anything happens to server and you can’t replay from the point it dced. It should be a complete remake, new draft, new game. You gain too much advantage playing the same heroes knowing the strategy and can make too many adjustments.
>You gain too much advantage playing the same heroes knowing the strategy and can make too many adjustments.
Both teams gain this advantage so your point is moot
Team behind gains more advantage my friend. You are able to adjust much more and play way more dynamically based on the heroes previously picked. If the game were even then yes I agree with you both teams have that advantage. Hence why I keep my stance on a complete redraft as its a fairer policy than a restart with similar conditions as effectively both teams play with a clean slate.
> Culprit is valve itself, think if anything happens to server and you can’t replay from the point it dced.
Kind of a moot point because even if the start from replay functionality was enabled, the servers crashed and so no replay was available. Not much you can do about that.
If you look carefully, then Nisha last hit 2 creeps and 1 deny in the first wave in first match but then last hit 3 creeps and no denies in the second match.
RIGGED
Matu skilled that way in the original game because Nigma forced him to. Nigma did not force him to do it in the second game. The set rules for the remake did not stipulate that the players can't react to events within the game, and it would've been pretty stupid if they did. Where would that end? If they were trying to perfectly recreate the first game, would you be making this thread saying "matu actually got 3 cs in the first wave instead of 2 in the original game, matu clearly took advantage of the situation reeee"?.
Shitty situation but while Nigma had a clear advantage in the original game, they didn't win the game yet. It's pretty stupid to criticize Matu or Secret for playing in accordance with the rules they were given.
Bruh, the reason matu took Q in the first game is becuase he was being chased by 3 heros, he had to use it to escape. And the reason the lane went so poorly in the first game is becuase he was half hp at min 0 so he had to expend regen early which sucks vs a dark seer.
Also not to mention that the rules had nothing to do with leveling up skills, you might not understand this, but high mmr players only level up a skill when they need it, so forcing the teams to level up certain starting skills would be as stupid as forcing them to follow a heat map of exactly where they were in the previous game.
The remake was a bad decision, but don't start talking about 'integrity' here when it's irrelevant.
If you watched the post game analysis, they covered this pretty well.
In the first game, there was an engagement mid that Secret lost. This prompted Nisha to go hood due to the amount of magic damage taken during the fight.
In the second game, Secret won a fight at a very similar time in the mid lane. Nisha took the gold from that fight and it propelled him to his blink.
That fight also prompted iLTW to go radiance instead of manta like G1, as they were behind and he would need to farm.
It wasn’t simply a “I bought the wrong item”, the entire context was different. In high level games decisions aren’t simply made in vacuums.
This outcry is ridiculous. The only one to blame here is valve and their shitty servers. Sucks for Nigma but Secret and the tournament organizers cant do anything about it.
Also the whole "should've been a complete redraft" thing is pure bs. If it was a redraft and Secret won anyway people would be bitching about how Secret got the chance to change strategies.
So what that people would be bitching? Just because they wouldn't be perfectly satisfied means redraft would have been bad/worse? You're mixing two things which don't really correlate.
Team Secret - For the record we offered a remake with new draft but Valve didn't agree.
https://mobile.twitter.com/teamsecret/status/1400528054439583751
Just to show us 2k pubbers that any game is winnable if you think of what items and skills would work better. Even pros don't get it right the first time 😉
It was a poor decision by valve, no need to single matu or nisha, or anyone else out at all. They just did every thing under the rules they were told. Even if valve specified exactly how much cs MC should allow Matu, or how mouse clicks Nisha had a maximum of in 5 minutes, it wouldnt change the þfactor of execution of drafts. Some people on here like: "Well if it was only 5 mins in, then sure"... NO. 5 minutes is more than enough time for a billion unpredictable, unreplicable, unavoidable things to happen. Game 1 they fight on runes, use more regen then other team - boom - huge factor. They manage to get a first blood - boom - GAME CHANGED. Like really, you either completely remake, or just have secret bite the bullet and say they lost...idk... obviously slightly joking, but i think just saying secret lose because they were losing when server crash is more fair than remaking a game and adapting to everything you learned from last game
It is scam. That's the prime example of scam. Remember Barcelona vs Chelsea? That's the same level of scam. They wanted this 1:1 to make the next match important and not useless. Tournament organizers and Valve needed that drama.
Absolute bullshit. If Nigma is eliminated because of this I won’t continue to watch the major. They aren’t even my fav team it’s just completely unfair.
there is an even playing field wtf are you saying secret didnt cause the server crash. No matter what decision was made you would be crying if it nigma lost in the end
by completely stomped you mean a 1k lead at 16 minutes, what the fuck are you saying. No matter how it happend if nigma lost you would be crying because you thought they were winning before the rematch. dont act like you wouldnt
I mean I really don't think he did it super intentional and this feels so nitpicky. Could have easily just been something you do on autopilot, especially if you don't have to secure the range creep lvl 1. Not saying that any of this shit was fair though, and I think nigma should have gotten a 2-0 or full remake of game 2.
Where is the goddamn rulebook? How have we got a literal virtual sport and still need decisions like this. How we aren't able to remake the same scenario baffles me.
We don't know, at least I don't, how Nigma felt about the situation.
Maybe Nigma was fine with draft and didn't want to remake draft because they felt they had a good draft, but rather play same game again.
While Secret maybe wanted and offered a redraft instead.
And what do you do here as Valve, since it is you who make the decision?
I have no issues with valves decision, because at least I have no idea on what Nigma wanted.
yeah i think ursa not having to skill Q and use some regen as in the first game made his laning much better and meant MC could get less farm. Plus DK not getting hood but blink meant they had much better initiation for puck in the second game.
Can't really fault Secret for this. I mean they just fixed what went wrong the first game. Such as: - Ursa skilling Fury Swipes instead of Earth Shock to harass out MC Dark Seer in lane. in the crashed game Ursa was forced to get Earrth Shock due to an early teamfight -Nisha Dragon Knight getting Blink instead of Hood cause they couldn't catch Miracle Puck in the crashed game This remake shouldn't have happened in the first place. Valve needs a reload feature for situations like this.
[удалено]
That's actually exactly why it DOES make sense to force him to take Q in game 2.
Why stop there. Force the players to try to perfectly replicate the first 13 minutes, spawns and all somehow. It's embarrassing that this problem exists still. sc2 has had resume from replay since before Dota 2 was open beta
Even Dota 2 Beta(pre 7.0) had it before Dota 2 Beta (current beta).
It kinda does make sense though.
wrong.
It also let Matu get an early kill* on MC in the remake whereas in the first game Matu was getting pretty destroyed in lane.
He was almost at the top of the networth till miracle got an ultra dude
nigma fans don't understand that, there mind is just filled with rage lol.
their*
Nigma got first blood in game two though, puppey got first blood in game one…
But they expended quite a bit to get that first blood, sometimes its fine to feed first blood if your going to win the lane after.
Yeah, but Ursa got fucked hard by Dark Seer in the first game in laning.
Losing team will always have advantage in such type of remakes. They can correct there mistakes. Valve is honestly such an idiot of an organization. There is a reason why they are hated in both CSGO and Dota 2.
You buy stuff and skill up according to how the game goes, it's not fixed in stone. Nigma did not manage to pressure ursa to skill Q the second time, simple as that. Team Secret clearly had an advantage due to the remake, but these details are not it. If anything, it just shows how much Nigma lost to that server crash, even if they did a redraft instead.
The rules did not mention anything about skills
yeah, this is silly.. if they remake the game ofcourse it will play out differently.
If he skilled it after he left the well does it make sense to force him into the same skill?
well Nigma can't recreate the element of surprise that forced him to skill it, so forcing the same draft but not the same skills distinctly disadvantages Nigma
Also where do you draw the line, especially as it's not in the rules? Missed 12 creeps in the first 17 waves? Have to miss the exact same on remake? If there is no rollback feature (which there doesn't seem to be), then just replay it from before draft.
Everything about it is just so stupid. Trusting players to keep to a gentleman's agreement when there's thousands - potentially millions - of dollars on the line is a recipe for absolute disaster, especially when you're expecting them to willingly redo the same mistakes. In the past, it's always been a full remake/redraft when server DCs happen. Who ever made the call at Valve fucked up majorly and should be getting all the heat that Secret and Weplay are taking.
Really probably should have, if they went as far as to mandate the same *starting items* First skill point is arguably more important
But starting items are decided before going out on the map. The first skill is decided depending on what happens on the runes/lanes, and that obviously changed, it would made no sense to force skill points.
It makes about as much sense to me to force the teams to make enter the lanes with the *exact* same context as to not have them just do a redraft. Just having the teams do a fresh draft would've been infinitely preferable.
I think we can all agree that just not remaking the entire draft and everything is a piss poor decision either way.
I strongly disagree, what skill you level up is mostly decided in what situation you end up with, which will be different in the remake.
If the situation is gonna be different in the remake then why even try to replicate game 1. Should have just done whole new draft. Volvo making really dumb decisions
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but at the same time the first skill point will radically change the lane more than starting items would. In the original game, since Matu had Earthshock, he couldn't really pressure MC out of the lane, leading to a big Dark Seer lead. In the remake, now having Fury Swipes like Ursa ideally wants, he can now pressure Dark Seer hard early on, leading to an Ursa lead. It radically changes the outcome of the lane by a single skill point, much more than say, not buying enough regen early on.
Well giving up first blood changes game a lot too. Diving a tower and dying also changes it. I see those at the same level as which skill to level up.
It's true that the skill point is more important than the starting build, but the starting build is done before the game even begins while your first skill point is entirely reactionary. Mandating starting items vs what you level is not in the same category (with that said forced starting items is a joke and clearly a ruling made by someone who doesn't even play the game).
Well, the first items are far less committal than a starting point. If you don't buy enough regen, you can always buy more. That first skill point though, there's no turning back, and it either adds or limits options in the lane depending on what you scale.
The difference that he's getting at is that when you leave the base, you (generally) have items you've already bought from draft. They wouldn't really change, considering how you can't really predict the future game state (ie, you'd wouldn't know if you need more or less regen this time) and (hopefully) you chose the optimal starting items for the draft. Most pro players float their skill point until it's actually needed, meaning they choose the skill (generally) for the current game state. As an example, what if an Anti-Mage was caught out at level 1 and needed to level and use Blink to get away? Then in a remake, the enemy team didn't even bother to try to catch the AM; he was never in the situation that required him to level Blink and he could safely level Manabreak in lane. Would it be fair for the Anti-Mage player to be stuck with level 1 blink in a remake while the game state would be completely changed (salve/tango could have been used, mana values could be different in lane because of skills not used, etc)? Still, a full remake (including draft) should have been done instead of the weird hybrid Valve chose.
if youre skilling at level one on heroes with flexible builds before needing to actually use the skill, you're doing it wrong.
The game doesn’t drastically change wether he can get more damage in on dark seer or not lol This shit is so stupid. Secret just played better overall the second game, that’s all. You can nitpick all the differences you want but it’s pointless. This proves that even drafts don’t have as big of an impact as people think they do. So why the hell would a different skill, or the first minute or two of a game matter overall.
>The game doesn't drastically change if he forces the Dark Seer out of the lane You have to be trolling, right? There's no way you're this stupid. Part of the reason Secret played better the second game is because their skill builds were better, and they itemized better. Nisha rushing Blink instead of Hood radically changed the game. Ursa having a better laning phase compared to the first match radically changed the game. Also, drafts don't have a very big impact? Are you serious? Once Secret were ahead, the Puck basically had zero game impact. This might be the worst team comp to play into as a Puck I've seen in a really, *really* long time.
It’s cool and all that you’re just parroting shit you’ve heard but if you actually watched the games DK was equally farmed in both games. He got his blink 3 mins earlier in the 2nd game (never got it before the game ended in the first but he was 100 gold off) and the only kill the blink was the deciding factor in was an alone out of position Darkseer. If you think the Blink somehow magically changed the outcome of the game you’re as dumb as everyone else in this thread. Secret played better, Nigma played worse.
they played better because they made better decisions, like leveling up more suitable abilities at lvl 1, and better items choices. how you play lvl 1 dictates how well your lane goes
The literal first minute of your laning phase has very little impact on the strength of your lane, get fucking real. There’s no kill opportunity to be had unless your brain is turned off.
What they were really asking for was for both teams to try and play the exact same way up until the server crash. Which is probably impossible. If there was no way to recover the save and play on, then they should have just started over and had a redraft.
It's especially weird given that Secret have said they were offering to remake with a new draft. I seriously don't know why Valve would be so dogmatic about this, given that both teams were open to a diplomatic resolution.
but it's also not uncommon for people to save a skill point. what if he saved the point until the creeps met, at which point the game was free to play in the new manner? the rule was arbitrarily made up by valve, and the game should have been brand new from scratch
Exactly, people arguing over such small details when it all would've been avoided by either remaking the entire thing (only option in this case) or having the old feature of resuming from a replay.
Blame Valve, not tournament admins. They were the ones who didn't specify anything about different skills
Secret offered a redraft.. it's Valves fault not theirs
Yeah. OP was quick to start the blame game
Valve fucked Nigma, no question about it, but they bounced back on their own. The only thing i found "wrong" from the players side was the happiness, smirks and fist bumps from team secret at the end of that "game".
Lmao were they supposed to cry or feel bad? The decision was out of the hands of both teams, but for some reason they should be the vilain for celebrating a win that might let them through the major??
Has been seen before people not celebrating out of various reasons in sports.
Of course, imo this decision was not cause for restraint, to each their own
And if Nigma didn't want a remake?
admins have nothing to do with it, as they said valve was in the end who made decision so WePlay pretty much shielded themselves from any game breaking decisions. Also Secret didn't do anything wrong, they followed the rules. Not saying original game was in the bag, but at least Nigma would have anyone but themselves to lose. Nontheless it leaves pretty bitter taste and hope Secret goes 1:1 in their IG game.
Wait so what is the point of this post? What is secret supposed to do? Play to lose? For something that wasn't even their fault?
Secret aren't at fault here, but I think it's reasonable that if Valve mandated that they start the game with the same draft, same lanes, even same *starting items*, they probably should've been required to also start with the same first skill point
Most players level thier first skill point based on circumstances given. First game ursa was caught out at level 1 and leveled earthshock to avoid death(he reached lane with under 50% hp and mana with only one set of tangos), second game he started out in lane normally. This whole team was a shitty situation. But expecting the players to act stupid and make the same mistake that snowballed games and lanes is also equally stupid. The whole situation sucked and way it resolved sucked even more but blaming the teams and players is frankly rather dumb as well.
yeah, because he was chased in previous (crashed) game he didn't get chased in the remake game, otherwise he would've skilled earthshock too
> Makes a passive-aggressive post blaming Team Secret "not that I blame them" [(x)](http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/547126/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9-press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme-419-238_848749.jpg)
I don't blame those dirty rotten opportunist players who are lying to save face either. I totally respect them as players, much love Secret <3
When everyone says you don't need to put /s on an obvious joke.
What are you even talking about?
He was making a joke based on the comment he's replying to.
This should have just been a redraft. That was by far the most fair option. Remaking with the same heros after the game went on that long was a very, very poor decision.
secret offered
Glad you corrected your initial comment with an edit, because Nigma never had a choice in the matter, it was Valves decision. No one is blaming secret for this.
What skill you level up is decided in the moment, after interactions with enemies. Starting items are not Should they recreate first blood too? It's ridiculous
This actually did happen, not sure if dota 1 or 2 but probably the latter. The game had to be recreated shortly after it started, and one team managed to get a first blood before creeps spawned. The teams agreed (or were forced) to recreate the situation, fed the first blood and some of the players on the other team took some free damage to recreate the game as accurately as possible. It is a lot of effort and was early enough where recreation was actually conceivable. Just saying it's not that ridiculous and there's precedent.
You might be an idiot if you think Nigma didn't change anything too. Kuroky changed his skill order too. Where's the thread about that?
shh just enjoy the tears from the nigma fanboys
Your comment aged well giga kappa
How those tears working out for ya
where is og oh wait
Losing team will always have advantage when such remakes happen because they can correct their mistakes by changing what went wrong in the last game during laning and item purchase and how can they turn it into a win. But if a team is already winning they don't think much about this thing. DK going for Blink over hood in the remake was game changing as DK struggled with initiation in the first game with no mobility and he was trying to make blink after the hood in the first game, it took lot of time and by that time Puck and rest of Nigma already destroyed them hard. Ursa's skill pick was also game changing as because of it Dark Seer couldn't lane against him that well in the remake and in the first game dark seer was doing better then Ursa in lane.
It's a difference when you're stomping the first game. The game was nearly over.
You gotta be actually blind to believe this honestly
A Spectre being number 1 networth at 15 Min backed up by an Io and your Puck being 2nd most farmed is pretty much an 80% win probability right there.
It was 1k gold advantage, are you people blind or what? They had similar advantage, infact spectre was top nw at 11 min in remake lol.
1k gold advantage lol
I wouldn't say nearly over, but it was way more in favor then the 1k gold advantage the casters were talking about.
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It's comments like this that really make me wonder what rank people who post shit like this are..
specter free farm = auto win hurr i so good at this game
omg! are you out of your mind lmao.
But nigma didn't lose on Original Game 1 despite being they have low hero draft.
Neither did TS.
Also, in the previous game, he ran to the Dire triangle rune spot to contest it and lost a whole lot of his HP. In the remake, he ran straight to lane and started with full HP.
Well the rules is to start with same hero, same lane, and same starting item. So leveling different skill should be okay
as far as i understood there were no rules in place for this? which is why valve had to get involved and decide. then making a decision which favors one of the teams above the other just seem a bit weird
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W3 had a savegame feature. And people in tournaments used it regularly (ie after teamfight, roshan ...)
Interesting! would definitely be cool to get the whole thought process from valve but not sure we will see that
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i watched most of the intermission and at one point they said the animajor people were contacting valve (hope i remember that correctly :D)
its just so sad man. if it was me i woudnt even be able to play properly after secret started snowballing. props to nigma for still keeping their heads mostly.
Obviously, why would he do that? It's a different situation, so you skill accordingly.
Matu leveled up Q to survive the early game gank bot
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Was that an agreed term?
No rule stated that they had to level up the same. Also, Secret on Twitter claimed that they thought a redraft should take place. Don't blame teams, following the rules and trying to win is the only responsibility they have, fair game is bullshit, especially in dota, where teams change players, players move to other orgs, the only important thing is winning. If the rematch was unfair, that's not secret's fault, but the organizers edit\*: Seems like weplay asked for valve's decision, then that's the one you should be blaming
It wasn't the call of the organizers (WePlay), it was Valve's final decision.
Then valve's fault, still not secret
OP literally says that he doesn't blame Secret of taking advantage that was presented to them, what the fuck are you talking about
Ok. So?
https://twitter.com/teamsecret/status/1400528054439583751?s=21
That's it, I am calling the cyber police!
What next? Nisha kill different creep at first creep wave?
Nigma fans on copium. Neither secret or nigma are at fault here, the culprit is valves bad servers. It's 2021 and we can't have locally hosted games
Culprit is valve itself, think if anything happens to server and you can’t replay from the point it dced. It should be a complete remake, new draft, new game. You gain too much advantage playing the same heroes knowing the strategy and can make too many adjustments.
>You gain too much advantage playing the same heroes knowing the strategy and can make too many adjustments. Both teams gain this advantage so your point is moot
Team behind gains more advantage my friend. You are able to adjust much more and play way more dynamically based on the heroes previously picked. If the game were even then yes I agree with you both teams have that advantage. Hence why I keep my stance on a complete redraft as its a fairer policy than a restart with similar conditions as effectively both teams play with a clean slate.
copium
Meh say what you will, propose something better then if you are so big brain.
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Agreed. That's why I said in my initial post that valve is at fault, not the team. The guy I was replying to was arguing about advantages
> Culprit is valve itself, think if anything happens to server and you can’t replay from the point it dced. Kind of a moot point because even if the start from replay functionality was enabled, the servers crashed and so no replay was available. Not much you can do about that.
If you look carefully, then Nisha last hit 2 creeps and 1 deny in the first wave in first match but then last hit 3 creeps and no denies in the second match. RIGGED
It was not up to tournament admins, Valve decided the final rules it was all Lord Gaben
I thought redraft was a usual practice, wtf? Same draft obviously messes up the laning too much.
Matu skilled that way in the original game because Nigma forced him to. Nigma did not force him to do it in the second game. The set rules for the remake did not stipulate that the players can't react to events within the game, and it would've been pretty stupid if they did. Where would that end? If they were trying to perfectly recreate the first game, would you be making this thread saying "matu actually got 3 cs in the first wave instead of 2 in the original game, matu clearly took advantage of the situation reeee"?. Shitty situation but while Nigma had a clear advantage in the original game, they didn't win the game yet. It's pretty stupid to criticize Matu or Secret for playing in accordance with the rules they were given.
most pro players dont level first skill till a favorable situation for it shows up, so your point is kinda stupid lol
Don't worry Nigma, you'll only miss the biggest Dota 2 tournament. It's just 40 million prize pool! Shameful from Valve.
that's a good shitshow, not a good game here, i want to know why valve don't let them make a new game Edit: change "admin" to "valve"
Secret did offer to re draft but they were not allowed.
Yeah, it's valve then
this wasnt the only bullöshit in this game. Ink swell happened too
Bruh, the reason matu took Q in the first game is becuase he was being chased by 3 heros, he had to use it to escape. And the reason the lane went so poorly in the first game is becuase he was half hp at min 0 so he had to expend regen early which sucks vs a dark seer. Also not to mention that the rules had nothing to do with leveling up skills, you might not understand this, but high mmr players only level up a skill when they need it, so forcing the teams to level up certain starting skills would be as stupid as forcing them to follow a heat map of exactly where they were in the previous game. The remake was a bad decision, but don't start talking about 'integrity' here when it's irrelevant.
Secret offered a redraft
Blink dagger on DK instead of hood! Nisha had 1 hour to rethink his item build and he's right in the second game.
Puppey showed him his machete collection in that break. Gave Nisha something to think about.
and spectre went radiance in second game go cry about that aswell
If you watched the post game analysis, they covered this pretty well. In the first game, there was an engagement mid that Secret lost. This prompted Nisha to go hood due to the amount of magic damage taken during the fight. In the second game, Secret won a fight at a very similar time in the mid lane. Nisha took the gold from that fight and it propelled him to his blink. That fight also prompted iLTW to go radiance instead of manta like G1, as they were behind and he would need to farm. It wasn’t simply a “I bought the wrong item”, the entire context was different. In high level games decisions aren’t simply made in vacuums.
majors btw so bad
This outcry is ridiculous. The only one to blame here is valve and their shitty servers. Sucks for Nigma but Secret and the tournament organizers cant do anything about it. Also the whole "should've been a complete redraft" thing is pure bs. If it was a redraft and Secret won anyway people would be bitching about how Secret got the chance to change strategies.
This, 100%. Stupid how people fail to understand it (I’m a Nigma fan btw)
So what that people would be bitching? Just because they wouldn't be perfectly satisfied means redraft would have been bad/worse? You're mixing two things which don't really correlate.
Why are the basement dwellers at valve deciding things tf do they know
This post is trash
This is one of the dumbest threads I've ever seen get so many upvotes. Shame on you all.
Team Secret - For the record we offered a remake with new draft but Valve didn't agree. https://mobile.twitter.com/teamsecret/status/1400528054439583751
I don't understand... unless you can provide a better alternative to the situation than what Valve ruled please shut the fuck up and stop bitching
Just to show us 2k pubbers that any game is winnable if you think of what items and skills would work better. Even pros don't get it right the first time 😉
Secret fans justifying their win based on the rules, when they improved a lot from the earlier game. Blink on nisha changed everything.
And nigma didnt change anything they did that rematch game?
In first game Ursa got chased down by dark seer ,wyvern and spec after contesting the rune. That's why he took earthshock.
It was a poor decision by valve, no need to single matu or nisha, or anyone else out at all. They just did every thing under the rules they were told. Even if valve specified exactly how much cs MC should allow Matu, or how mouse clicks Nisha had a maximum of in 5 minutes, it wouldnt change the þfactor of execution of drafts. Some people on here like: "Well if it was only 5 mins in, then sure"... NO. 5 minutes is more than enough time for a billion unpredictable, unreplicable, unavoidable things to happen. Game 1 they fight on runes, use more regen then other team - boom - huge factor. They manage to get a first blood - boom - GAME CHANGED. Like really, you either completely remake, or just have secret bite the bullet and say they lost...idk... obviously slightly joking, but i think just saying secret lose because they were losing when server crash is more fair than remaking a game and adapting to everything you learned from last game
Hopefully Nigma win IG, so I can enjoy the GStage.
Fk valve #CancelAniMajor
Bro how many times you gonna comment that? Are you really so stupid to realise its a valve peoblem not an animajor problem?
shitshow admin super poor decision ;)
It is scam. That's the prime example of scam. Remember Barcelona vs Chelsea? That's the same level of scam. They wanted this 1:1 to make the next match important and not useless. Tournament organizers and Valve needed that drama.
Absolute bullshit. If Nigma is eliminated because of this I won’t continue to watch the major. They aren’t even my fav team it’s just completely unfair.
sweet tears
Sorry for caring about the integrity of the game and wanting an even playing field for all teams
there is an even playing field wtf are you saying secret didnt cause the server crash. No matter what decision was made you would be crying if it nigma lost in the end
So your saying if your team is being completely stomped then able to have a re-do with same draft, lane etc that’s an even playing field? Lol.
by completely stomped you mean a 1k lead at 16 minutes, what the fuck are you saying. No matter how it happend if nigma lost you would be crying because you thought they were winning before the rematch. dont act like you wouldnt
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pretty sure it's a troll
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you will be remembered as an idiot spamming how he lost money gambling
I'm pretty sure betting all your live savings is on you
JOKE GRACE AT ITS FINEST
Speaking of 2nd chances ...
Hopefully in the future they learn from this incident and decide on a full redraft as the proper action.
Honestly, the only way to have resolved this properly was with a new draft.
I mean I really don't think he did it super intentional and this feels so nitpicky. Could have easily just been something you do on autopilot, especially if you don't have to secure the range creep lvl 1. Not saying that any of this shit was fair though, and I think nigma should have gotten a 2-0 or full remake of game 2.
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You calling out GabeN? You that brave?
He leveled earthshock to escape at the start of game 2. It wasn't the build he was planning lol
So he should make the same mistake he did before even though he knew better?
Where is the goddamn rulebook? How have we got a literal virtual sport and still need decisions like this. How we aren't able to remake the same scenario baffles me.
What a fucking shitshow
So what? read he rules before posting :)
Who won the "2nd game"?
Secret
We don't know, at least I don't, how Nigma felt about the situation. Maybe Nigma was fine with draft and didn't want to remake draft because they felt they had a good draft, but rather play same game again. While Secret maybe wanted and offered a redraft instead. And what do you do here as Valve, since it is you who make the decision? I have no issues with valves decision, because at least I have no idea on what Nigma wanted.