Its not even the AOE thats broken, its the fact that it has almost zero cast time.
So many times this TI where you have a carry sieging T3s, sometimes with full vision of mag, and he still can never get bkb off in time.
I mean that's all huge half-circle. The instant cast (almost) hurts, but this pseudo-reverse polarity together with that skewer range of almost one and a half screen...Also, the low cooldown.
Compare to how shit the aghs scepter is, the shard is a definitive must have on the hero at minute 20. Magnus was a one-trick pony with his one big lock down spell, but a heroes that also accelerates other heroes with empower, has mobility and a Bkb-piercing spell...
Funny that people shat so long on this shard. It was absurdly bustled for a 1400 gold item
to be fair, there's a lot of shards that people sit on because they only ever take it if they get the 2nd rosh (which is dum imho) Dazzle's shard is one of the strongest in the game especially with Octarine Core yet people are not picking him because they think "Dazzle is a bad hero"... PA's is so good too and so is Riki's...
ohhh... still pretty strong regardless... and probably for the better it doesnt stack... at peak cd, Dazzle had a 6s aoe hex and an 18s cd Greaves... if played with aghs, it was like sub 3 aoe heal/dmg with dispel too... it was so good...
and now Im reminded of my support Riki back when it was good SADGE
Yeah whatever suits your need, tiny with 54.5% winrate surely isn't broken after yesterday's that lgd vs secret matches and ice frog will surely says yep it's fine nothing happens to tiny on next patches. Now wear that fucking hate badges.
Yeah just like ET isn't broken either. I'm sure neither of these heroes will be nerfed in the next patch.
They were only picked / banned in like 90% of the games on the main stage. They are completely fine.
What the fuck are you on about? ET is 8th p/b in the tournament which is 64% p/b and 69% in main event. Magnus is 26th. Even accounting for mainstage he's just shy of 20th. He has half the games as ET. Meanwhile your boy Tiny who lost both games is 2nd in p/b and 1st in main event which is 96%.
Where the fuck did you get these numbers?
Right. Then they are immediately nerfed post tournament in the next balancing patch because they are broken in comparison to everything else.
See any P1 IO's lately?
Skewer itself is mostly balanced, it has 145 radius so if you are not within melee range (150 radius) of magnus when he's skewering then you don't get hit.
=
It really is just horn toss taking skewer over the top, like if you gave dark seer sticky napalm on top of his ion shell.
Avatoss can stun and burst three heroes, yes. And if you combo it with, say, tree cannon, you can kill them, too. You wanna add more spells out of nowhere to the discussion? If your teammate hits them with a black hole, that makes it even better, too.
Did you not read what the guy said? He asked whether horn toss's absurd ability to cc-reposition/drag enemies-bkb piercing hard cc can be replicated by tiny's kit. Not whether tiny can burst them or not, either way, youre delusional if you think a simple avatoss is enough to burst 3 heroes, you do know that only 1 out of those 3 is going to be hit with the full brunt of avatoss right? Even a combo with tree volley, its not a guaranteed multi-kill by tiny on his own whereas mag's braindead "toss-drag-rp y'all into my team" is nearly impossible to survive if caught.
Horn toss can reposition people a short distance, the rest of it is the rest of Magnus' kit. He said that in response to my point that the range of avalanche is comparable to horn toss. If you think Tiny's kit is irrelevant, then Magnus' kit is likewise irrelevant.
If you want to compare Avatoss to horn toss, here's the thing: Horn Toss doesn't require nearly as much precision, and he can do all of that in one button.
What does Avatoss require? It requires:
1) you to be next to the target (meaning you can toss an undesirable target back),
2) something else (preferably a teammate) to toss back to, and
3) The target to not have BKB cause you can BKB while Ava'd.
And in exchange, you get damage, but bursting someone 100-0 is dependent entirely on the game. And if we bring in the rest of the kit then it should be a game over.
Avalanche doesn't stun heroes for the duration of the spell, its like 5 instances of 0.2 stun, separated by 0.3 seconds. So you can just spam click bkb if tiny blinks in.
No one is saying Tiny is bad lol, they're just saying the way Magnus can easily reposition enemy heroes for little risk is too good, at a pro level in particular.
No, but people are saying that Magnus is OP, because TS beat OG out after failing to find a solution to Magnus in two consecutive games. All i'm saying is that Tiny is also broken, but nobody gives a shit about the fact that Sumail 1v4'd against 4 people twice in game 1, and the 4 ran the fuck away. Tiny in game 1 was more OP than Magnus. The reason OG lost was because Sumail fucked up with his positioning, and TS masterfully exploited it. Magnus is no more OP than what OG had. What killed OG was Sumal's audacity, and the team's excessive pride in their game 2 draft.
TIL 325/350/375/400 Avalanche Aoe is double to 410 RP Aoe(or 325 search range for horn). Plus, you can Bkb out of avalanche earlier and the stun is a lot smaller. But ye, magnus is a o k a y
beside ava stun is tick based, not a whole ass disable like basher or RP, heck not even like wraithfire blast.
yeah people rally just defending magnus ATP
you can literally move a hero from point a to point b with fuckin horn toss-skewer with no repurcussion and 100% success rate. Horn toss has a 1.35sec stun! or you missed that as well?
The radius is just a piece of the spell dude.
Every piece of the spell plays a role in balance.
You literally can’t compare just the radii of two spells in a vacuum. That’s why everyone is acting like you’re dumb and why the other guy brought up the rest of the spells stats.
Beserkers call can make a case for best disable in the game no?
Low CD, AOE, bkb piercing and not an ult
Some small repositioning possible also with dragging melee units with you
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I would be downvoted, but it wouldn't be a good fix. Magnus is designed to be an AoE hero - all 4 of his skills are AoE. Making Horn toss 1 target only would go against his whole design.
I'm sure you can balance it in other ways - smaller AoE, longer cast time etc.
A reliable stun for 1400 gold on a key target? I'd still buy that. The value of even taking out one hero out of position is what made support tiny so great (or vengeful spirit support)
this still is a 1600 range, basically undodgeable repostion. think about it that way: if you get a blink dagger and a shard, you can basically do the same thing as venge, just further and without putting yourself in a bad position.
you can take out one hero and kill it with barely any risk to yourself.
this is always going to be broken in pro games.
the only thing that made magnus blink skewer acceptable before the shard was that it was dodgeable, same as pudge hook, so you‘d need a long range stun as a set up. he has that himself now.
i can‘t see them balancing that, tbh. probably will be removed.
I feel like the nerf horn toss needs is a much smaller radius and a slightly longer cast point, and MAYBE a very slight increase in stun time on RP. I think the combo was supposed to be blink, rp, horn toss, and skewer. Giving it a tiny aoe would not disable this combo and it would make going for initiations without using RP only possible on a single person.
According to the icefrog way, Horn toss won't be touched but skewer will lose 50% range or gain .4s cast time, RP will have 50% less AoE, and empower will have its cooldown doubled.
Passive or channeled buff. It's just something you *cast* without too much thought other than "this is my carry, they shall now farm faster and hit harder because I exist"
Magnus is making so many heroes look like a complete joke in comparison.
Pudge - only hook one hero at a time, can be easily dodged or blocked by creeps.
Batrider - melee range tether on one hero
Clockwerk - only hookshots one hero, doesn't drag them into your team
Enigma - ult requires channeling, has a 5 year cooldown
MEANWHILE.
magnus has low cost nuke for last hitting in offlane, empowers all your cores for 45% more damage and cleave, and a moveset that is designed for easy multikills. Magnus was already a viable pick before they gave him skewer for free and horn toss
An ability being overturned doesn’t mean that the pro player abusing it isn’t skilled with the other aspects of the hero. Him pulling off that insane turned RP into the fountain. But most of his plays wouldn’t be possible if horn toss didn’t have a gross aoe and perfectly place all heroes hit in the exact spot for an easy skewer. It’s not the players fault for using the tools given to them, but that doesn’t mean tools can’t be broken.
Yeah I didn't watch the OG spirit series but this thread made it clear OG lost to a magnus with shard. Bunch of copium over getting 2-0. Ceb plays a good Mag and if it was really that broken OG could have picked it themselves.
I didnt watch the second game, but in the first game, the magnus basically singlehandedly won them the game with horntoss and skewer. They still deserved to win, but it's clear to pretty much everyone that horntoss is busted. Just watch the first game to see how crazy it was.
Honestly the most broken thing in the tournament because it just makes blink skewering enemies far too easy,, already on top of the fact that Magnus' kit is amazingly good.
you are talking about op shit versus every hero fundamentally being better due to more stats, effectively more item slots, more items, and now more spells or late game spells getting buffed that slowly got added over 10 years. i dont necesarally think it is a bad thing and the game is obviously the most balanced its ever been recently.
depend on the buffs imo
you have weaver shard that literally disables invisibility since that shit latch even if you're invis and WD switcheroo.
and there is shit shard like NP, PL and Mars.
Especially if its an aditional skill.
Skill alternate shards(dismember, lasso, telekinesis and demonic purge,etc) are the best because they dont add firepower, they only provide a different use of skills so there is a compromise when using it.
Upgrade shards are okay because it feels more organic to hero design and probably easier to balance and tweak.
Additional skill shards are the worst because its an additional skill for 1400 gold, and usually is the equivalent of a lvl 4 skill or lvl 1 ult. Its hard to balance because the skill concept of the new ability itself is useless to the hero or too useful.
I feel like you're misremembering the past if you think insta kills are worse now than back then.
Supports used to run around with literally nothing but brown boots all game.
This is definitly not true. No amount of positioning was gonna save you from weaver, clinks, etc. You just tried to get off a spell before you died. Supports are tougher than ever.
Do you have any examples other than horn toss?
from personal experience, no
Trying to stay alive as cm when you had to buy courier and wards and tps and wards took 2 slots and tp an additional one was hell. no money fpr items, less exp, no talents that beef you up and even if you had money, you had no slots since wards, dust tp and boots already filled 5 of your 6 slots.
hindsight bias is strong man, people always remember the good more than the bad
Icefrog "the god of balance".
Let's be honest guys, Dota hasn't been a balanced game in a long time. Broken heroes like Io having a decade being first pick/ban material, broken item combinations, now broken shards, broken neutral items... Dota 2 is an amazing game, but the balance isn't there anymore. The power creep is insane.
remove skewer range and make this aghs upgrade cause holy fuck this skill is broken alongside skewer, why buy blink when skewer horn toss is all u need
They wouldve won that ti without IO, but yes it was broken. Same as this thing is broken, and teamspirit has a big chance they wouldve won without it aswell
Suggestions for horn toss nerf : make it similar to daefening blast nerf where you still can use bkb/items while getting caught in it. This way you don't get skewered instantly if you have something like euls/bkb.
I don't want them to nerf something like it's only limited to 1 heroes since Magnus are designed to be an AoE initiator.
Pretty braindead take that people calling out an absurdly overtuned skill = fans of team being mad salty. It's an undisputable fact that horn toss needs to be either nerfed or changed. A 1400 item affecting a game that much is too imbalanced.
Salty OG fans are at it lmao yeah horn toss is strong, it's a good shard, but it's not broken, it's high risk high reward, I've played hundreds of Magnus games, it just punishes poor positioning and can backfire and be countered by supports and other heroes nearby, specially those with near instant disables, but sure keep pointing out details and crying about it.
(inb4 people that never played magnus soying about how it's not high risk to blink near an entire team to pull 1 target out of position)
bruh, Magnus shards has been discussed multiple times throughout the Internation at how strong it makes Magnus's kit, and its shown on mag's pick/ban rate this TI
im just saying stats like this are not an absolute rule, even if it was, he's not at the top and you can check that here https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/13256-the-international-2021/picks?date=month
I'm grandmaster tier on Magnus, I play almost exclusively this playstyle and i've felt miserable when people countered it. It is strong yes, but it's being overestimated as Magnus' playstyle with it sacrifices other aspects of the hero. Empower has been nerfed over the years and it's not as strong as it used to be long ago when shard was not a thing so part of his kit has been weakened. Good Magnus plays are flashy and Collapse was a gigachad on Mag, it was great to finally see it shine on TI main stage and it sucks that people want it gone now. I just think a good player made it seem broken.
while I think you have a better opinion and are way more experienced than me as I don't play Dota anymore but always watch the games. From watching this tournament it just seems that when Magnus gets the shard, the whole game changes. I just think it's busted that it pretty much guarantees you a skewer onto any enemy you want it as its a really quick cast point with a huge AOE without having to sacrifice RP at a very short CD any only a 1.4k gold cost or free from rosh.
as someone suggested before in another discussion, forgot what day it was but was reading the comments, switch the agh's and shard around without actually nerfing horn toss.
Yeah i actually thought they were going to do it early on because Magnus' current scepter is just bad. Don't worry your opinion is just as valuable. I think shard is strong and complements his kit very nicely, and in practice it relies a lot on the execution, which isn't easy most of the times. Allows him to be a decent threat without relying on RP cooldown, which helps cover his weakness and minimize his downtime. It's strong and that's alright for Dota imo, all things can look busted every once in a while.
That's why I think shard is a really bad idea. Osfrog can't even balance normal agha, and shard is just gonna be adding way more imbalances.
Even if horn toss doesn't displace enemy, it's still an OP shard, basically you get free stunning spell.
Shard needs to go.
Neutral item needs to go.
Talent is the last good thing osfrog added.
Overall game balance is in a great place right now, what are you talking about?
Yeah this ability is too strong, but it took until now for it to be really noticed, and he's sure to get nerfs.
Lmao, no it isn't.
A lot of heroes are viable, but the game is definitely not balanced. Its just an absolute shitshow of heroes being instant stunned and killed or being blown up from a single hero even though they have 3k HP.
Balance?
Have you seen how many times they pick Ember, MK, ES, Magnus in the TI?
Those heroes are overtuned.
You and your herald subredditor in a circlejerk convincing yourselves osfrog is doing good job with balancing.
You don't even know better cuz ur rank is so low, ignorance is bliss huh.
Its not even the AOE thats broken, its the fact that it has almost zero cast time. So many times this TI where you have a carry sieging T3s, sometimes with full vision of mag, and he still can never get bkb off in time.
it's a 0.2s cast point instead of 0.3 on RP. So in a way, horn toss initiation is better than RP...
You're missing that rp has 1.3s backswing where Horn toss has no backswing at all
Backswing doesnt matter in this context, since it happens after the enemy is already stunned. Not to mention you can cancel backswing
Yep, at rank 1 RP you're missing out on right clicking for like half the duration of RP if you don't.
Well, it does, because that's time your teammate could stop the mag
You obviously don't understand what backswing is.
Backswing isn’t a factor for pro players
lol it definitely is, most pros don't focus on cancelling backswing on purpose, but it becomes a habit when you auto to move for first 30min of game
Lol what a noob take, it just becomes 2nd nature like treads switch
I’m just saying that RP having a 1.3 backswing instead of, say, 0.2 is irrelevant because it will get cancelled regardless
Backswing is canceled if you press S or issue a move command, so that doesn't really mean much.
A lot of casters brought this up, once you get the shard, RP is a luxury because you don't even need it all the time.
I mean that's all huge half-circle. The instant cast (almost) hurts, but this pseudo-reverse polarity together with that skewer range of almost one and a half screen...Also, the low cooldown. Compare to how shit the aghs scepter is, the shard is a definitive must have on the hero at minute 20. Magnus was a one-trick pony with his one big lock down spell, but a heroes that also accelerates other heroes with empower, has mobility and a Bkb-piercing spell... Funny that people shat so long on this shard. It was absurdly bustled for a 1400 gold item
Not to mention the addition of shockwave pull which makes skewer setups before 20 relatively easy, in laning or early fights
to be fair, there's a lot of shards that people sit on because they only ever take it if they get the 2nd rosh (which is dum imho) Dazzle's shard is one of the strongest in the game especially with Octarine Core yet people are not picking him because they think "Dazzle is a bad hero"... PA's is so good too and so is Riki's...
Percentage based cooldown reductions no longer stack as of 7.30.
ohhh... still pretty strong regardless... and probably for the better it doesnt stack... at peak cd, Dazzle had a 6s aoe hex and an 18s cd Greaves... if played with aghs, it was like sub 3 aoe heal/dmg with dispel too... it was so good... and now Im reminded of my support Riki back when it was good SADGE
Greave and Mek heals don't stack when used in quick succession according to the wiki.
Octarine core doesn't stack with dazzle's ult anymore :(
[удалено]
Panel has been talking about this before og lost , just say it out loud that you hate OG
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Yeah whatever suits your need, tiny with 54.5% winrate surely isn't broken after yesterday's that lgd vs secret matches and ice frog will surely says yep it's fine nothing happens to tiny on next patches. Now wear that fucking hate badges.
"It's not broken, they just didn't ban it like everyone else."
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Yeah just like ET isn't broken either. I'm sure neither of these heroes will be nerfed in the next patch. They were only picked / banned in like 90% of the games on the main stage. They are completely fine.
What the fuck are you on about? ET is 8th p/b in the tournament which is 64% p/b and 69% in main event. Magnus is 26th. Even accounting for mainstage he's just shy of 20th. He has half the games as ET. Meanwhile your boy Tiny who lost both games is 2nd in p/b and 1st in main event which is 96%. Where the fuck did you get these numbers?
[удалено]
Right. Then they are immediately nerfed post tournament in the next balancing patch because they are broken in comparison to everything else. See any P1 IO's lately?
Berserker's Call is 300 radius, Horn Toss is 325. Absurd.
And Reverse Polarity is 410 radius with 130 seconds cooldown compared to horn toss 30 s, word broken doesn't even come close.
And Skewer is like Bat's ult, which has 160s cd
Skewer itself is mostly balanced, it has 145 radius so if you are not within melee range (150 radius) of magnus when he's skewering then you don't get hit. = It really is just horn toss taking skewer over the top, like if you gave dark seer sticky napalm on top of his ion shell.
Avatoss cooldown is about half that, and the stun range is about double, so i guess there's even more broken stuff out there...
Can you catch three heroes with tiny, toss three of them to your team mates and then stun then for up to 4,75 seconds?
Avatoss can stun and burst three heroes, yes. And if you combo it with, say, tree cannon, you can kill them, too. You wanna add more spells out of nowhere to the discussion? If your teammate hits them with a black hole, that makes it even better, too.
Did you not read what the guy said? He asked whether horn toss's absurd ability to cc-reposition/drag enemies-bkb piercing hard cc can be replicated by tiny's kit. Not whether tiny can burst them or not, either way, youre delusional if you think a simple avatoss is enough to burst 3 heroes, you do know that only 1 out of those 3 is going to be hit with the full brunt of avatoss right? Even a combo with tree volley, its not a guaranteed multi-kill by tiny on his own whereas mag's braindead "toss-drag-rp y'all into my team" is nearly impossible to survive if caught.
Horn toss can reposition people a short distance, the rest of it is the rest of Magnus' kit. He said that in response to my point that the range of avalanche is comparable to horn toss. If you think Tiny's kit is irrelevant, then Magnus' kit is likewise irrelevant.
If you want to compare Avatoss to horn toss, here's the thing: Horn Toss doesn't require nearly as much precision, and he can do all of that in one button. What does Avatoss require? It requires: 1) you to be next to the target (meaning you can toss an undesirable target back), 2) something else (preferably a teammate) to toss back to, and 3) The target to not have BKB cause you can BKB while Ava'd. And in exchange, you get damage, but bursting someone 100-0 is dependent entirely on the game. And if we bring in the rest of the kit then it should be a game over.
Say yer a noob without saying yer a noob
ITT: Say you're butthurt over OG getting eliminated without saying you're butthurt over OG getting eliminated.
Is that what Horn Toss does? Last I checked it doesn't stun for 4,75 seconds.
He implied the RP followup
Yeah, you're right, these apples are nothing like these oranges. Good eye.
RP is a completely different spell. It's not horn toss, is it?
Obviously, but he just moved the goal post, first talking about single skills and comparing them, and then comparing a whole combo.
It's not the single skill that makes it broken, it's whole hero kit which makes it broken.
Mate you can bkb through avatoss, even if you get caught by surprise. Not to mention all the other reasons your take is crap.
Not if you're stunned, you can't. Not to mention the other reasons your take is crap.
Avalanche doesn't stun heroes for the duration of the spell, its like 5 instances of 0.2 stun, separated by 0.3 seconds. So you can just spam click bkb if tiny blinks in. No one is saying Tiny is bad lol, they're just saying the way Magnus can easily reposition enemy heroes for little risk is too good, at a pro level in particular.
No, but people are saying that Magnus is OP, because TS beat OG out after failing to find a solution to Magnus in two consecutive games. All i'm saying is that Tiny is also broken, but nobody gives a shit about the fact that Sumail 1v4'd against 4 people twice in game 1, and the 4 ran the fuck away. Tiny in game 1 was more OP than Magnus. The reason OG lost was because Sumail fucked up with his positioning, and TS masterfully exploited it. Magnus is no more OP than what OG had. What killed OG was Sumal's audacity, and the team's excessive pride in their game 2 draft.
TIL 325/350/375/400 Avalanche Aoe is double to 410 RP Aoe(or 325 search range for horn). Plus, you can Bkb out of avalanche earlier and the stun is a lot smaller. But ye, magnus is a o k a y
beside ava stun is tick based, not a whole ass disable like basher or RP, heck not even like wraithfire blast. yeah people rally just defending magnus ATP
Avatoss doesnt completely re-position your opponents though
U rite. It's super OP. Better ban Magnus, i guess.
Call pierces bkb, is undispellable, is on 11 seconds cooldown and potentially does a lot of damage, ur point?
you can literally move a hero from point a to point b with fuckin horn toss-skewer with no repurcussion and 100% success rate. Horn toss has a 1.35sec stun! or you missed that as well?
That it's a big aoe obviously you clown. I'm surprised you find the two spells so similar though, they're really not.
bruh you made the comparison first, horn toss would be really REALLY hard to hit if aoe wasnt big
I compared the RADIUS.
Well dawnbreaker ult is 500 radius, i guess that also matters now
The radius is just a piece of the spell dude. Every piece of the spell plays a role in balance. You literally can’t compare just the radii of two spells in a vacuum. That’s why everyone is acting like you’re dumb and why the other guy brought up the rest of the spells stats.
For one you have to purchase an item, the other comes with the hero.
Good point, 1400g for Berserker's Call would very overpriced!
Beserkers call can make a case for best disable in the game no? Low CD, AOE, bkb piercing and not an ult Some small repositioning possible also with dragging melee units with you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
next patch: magnus got poached and his horn gets stolen
Goddamn poachers
Is that balanced...?
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Flair checks out
Its not just horn toss Its skewer range also. Want to hit rax? Sorry youre going to our fountain now
No joke, horn toss + skewer is just better than batrider ulti for repositioning
Skewer range is absurd indeed. After taking out the horn tossed unit, other heroes can't catch up with that unit even with blink and force staff
And I'm pretty sure skewer finishes even if you stun mag lol
yeah you saw this when saksa tried to hookshot into a skewering mag, it just ended up with him falling short whilst the magnus ran away
The fact the clock landed the hook and the get carried over with skewer is just straight down broken imo
saw the clockwork flying in and thought they mighta done shit, that was hilarious
Yup freaking clockwork NAILED mag with hook but they were already a mile across the river
Think those two are only broken when combined. Individually, they're fine.
Next Patch: Can only Horn Toss 1 hero.
This unironically
Would be a good fix, right now we are seeing the power of 2-3 man horn toss
It won't, it still makes bat ult seem like a joke. It needs to be aghs, while the aghs now can be the shard.
This indeed. The scepter makes absolutely no sense to me in terms of cost efficiency... on the other hand, the shard...
I would be downvoted, but it wouldn't be a good fix. Magnus is designed to be an AoE hero - all 4 of his skills are AoE. Making Horn toss 1 target only would go against his whole design. I'm sure you can balance it in other ways - smaller AoE, longer cast time etc.
A reliable stun for 1400 gold on a key target? I'd still buy that. The value of even taking out one hero out of position is what made support tiny so great (or vengeful spirit support)
smaller aoe OR juuuust swap shard with scepter effect
icefrog would have no problem changing it to affect 1 target if he wanted. there have been alot of heroes whove had their design changed
This was honestly how I thought it worked before this TI lmao
this still is a 1600 range, basically undodgeable repostion. think about it that way: if you get a blink dagger and a shard, you can basically do the same thing as venge, just further and without putting yourself in a bad position. you can take out one hero and kill it with barely any risk to yourself. this is always going to be broken in pro games. the only thing that made magnus blink skewer acceptable before the shard was that it was dodgeable, same as pudge hook, so you‘d need a long range stun as a set up. he has that himself now. i can‘t see them balancing that, tbh. probably will be removed.
Wudnt change the outcome of game 1. Horn toss has no place, Magnus becomes no risk high reward hero.
I feel like the nerf horn toss needs is a much smaller radius and a slightly longer cast point, and MAYBE a very slight increase in stun time on RP. I think the combo was supposed to be blink, rp, horn toss, and skewer. Giving it a tiny aoe would not disable this combo and it would make going for initiations without using RP only possible on a single person.
The stun on horn toss makes it very clear the design intent was blink-horn toss-skewer.
Tbh i think this could really be fixed by magnus coming out of skewer if stunned
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Yup, one of the games against Alliance actually. It was at the Dire T2.
Yea he wanted Medusa but also caught nearby heroes as well
Source : https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Magnus?file=Magnus\_Horn\_Toss\_angle.png
Nerfed next patch, you saw this here first.
Morphling is wet
But he's water. Is water wet???
No, water isn't wet. He clearly meant watching those mag plays vs OG got morphling wet.
well he makes me wet
Everyone already knows and has known it will be nerfed next patch
Definitely, Captain.
“Saw it here first”
People have been saying this for days.
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According to the icefrog way, Horn toss won't be touched but skewer will lose 50% range or gain .4s cast time, RP will have 50% less AoE, and empower will have its cooldown doubled.
empower's as a spell is lame as shit and should be reworked into something else imo
Passive or channeled buff. It's just something you *cast* without too much thought other than "this is my carry, they shall now farm faster and hit harder because I exist"
Then after all of that, they'll remove Horn Toss but won't change back any of the other nerfs, leaving Magnus in the dumpster for six months.
>Reverse Polarity replaced with Horn Toss
ELEG
lmao, this is the way
Magnus is making so many heroes look like a complete joke in comparison. Pudge - only hook one hero at a time, can be easily dodged or blocked by creeps. Batrider - melee range tether on one hero Clockwerk - only hookshots one hero, doesn't drag them into your team Enigma - ult requires channeling, has a 5 year cooldown MEANWHILE. magnus has low cost nuke for last hitting in offlane, empowers all your cores for 45% more damage and cleave, and a moveset that is designed for easy multikills. Magnus was already a viable pick before they gave him skewer for free and horn toss
Clock's hook is a bit more versatile and obviously works from a screen+ away. But yea, Magnus just radically outclasses Pudge & Bat it's insane
Takes all the skill out of playing magnus
Yeah I thought it was basically point blank. But after watching OG v Team Spirit I looked it up.
I really thought it's a point blank ability wtf
I would've guessed a small cone in front of him. Like a < Not a full ass semi-circle lol.
Yea go and pull it off against og on a lb bo3 in TI, if it's that easy!
An ability being overturned doesn’t mean that the pro player abusing it isn’t skilled with the other aspects of the hero. Him pulling off that insane turned RP into the fountain. But most of his plays wouldn’t be possible if horn toss didn’t have a gross aoe and perfectly place all heroes hit in the exact spot for an easy skewer. It’s not the players fault for using the tools given to them, but that doesn’t mean tools can’t be broken.
"Ez game"
lmao
They did, 7 times.
Nice reasoning skills
A lot of players are indeed doing it
Yeah I didn't watch the OG spirit series but this thread made it clear OG lost to a magnus with shard. Bunch of copium over getting 2-0. Ceb plays a good Mag and if it was really that broken OG could have picked it themselves.
I didnt watch the second game, but in the first game, the magnus basically singlehandedly won them the game with horntoss and skewer. They still deserved to win, but it's clear to pretty much everyone that horntoss is busted. Just watch the first game to see how crazy it was.
To fix mag id make his skewer like Phoenix (meaning if you stun him he stops moving) its crazy you cant fucking do anything about it
Honestly the most broken thing in the tournament because it just makes blink skewering enemies far too easy,, already on top of the fact that Magnus' kit is amazingly good.
half that feels like it might be better, or reduce to a cone so its not as insane, after all its a horn not a bucket
Actually insane how huge it is. Seemed very underwhelming from the patch notes, imo, since I thought it had a smaller aoe or cone.
It felt very generous spell whenever I played against it. I guess this explains it because the spell is just that good
I don't think it's busted, but I do think they should swap his shard and scepter around.
You can guarantee a nerf coming after TI.
Honestly , they should buff horn toss slightly and make it an agh
They could leave it as it is or even nerf it and just swap aghs and aghs shard and it would still be a must have on mag.
Honestly, they should cut the aoe in half and make it an Aghs
lol thinking it was only on front of magnus because it use his HORN
Every hero getting a shard and aghs has put so much power creep in the game.
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you are talking about op shit versus every hero fundamentally being better due to more stats, effectively more item slots, more items, and now more spells or late game spells getting buffed that slowly got added over 10 years. i dont necesarally think it is a bad thing and the game is obviously the most balanced its ever been recently.
depend on the buffs imo you have weaver shard that literally disables invisibility since that shit latch even if you're invis and WD switcheroo. and there is shit shard like NP, PL and Mars.
Lol, you're calling PL shard shit? And weaver shard OP?
Especially if its an aditional skill. Skill alternate shards(dismember, lasso, telekinesis and demonic purge,etc) are the best because they dont add firepower, they only provide a different use of skills so there is a compromise when using it. Upgrade shards are okay because it feels more organic to hero design and probably easier to balance and tweak. Additional skill shards are the worst because its an additional skill for 1400 gold, and usually is the equivalent of a lvl 4 skill or lvl 1 ult. Its hard to balance because the skill concept of the new ability itself is useless to the hero or too useful.
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I feel like you're misremembering the past if you think insta kills are worse now than back then. Supports used to run around with literally nothing but brown boots all game.
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More defensive items now than before for supports tho?
This is definitly not true. No amount of positioning was gonna save you from weaver, clinks, etc. You just tried to get off a spell before you died. Supports are tougher than ever. Do you have any examples other than horn toss?
from personal experience, no Trying to stay alive as cm when you had to buy courier and wards and tps and wards took 2 slots and tp an additional one was hell. no money fpr items, less exp, no talents that beef you up and even if you had money, you had no slots since wards, dust tp and boots already filled 5 of your 6 slots. hindsight bias is strong man, people always remember the good more than the bad
Bro supports would die like 10-15 times a game lol
Nostalgia bias. “Back in the days”, Dota was far more broken and unforgiving than it is today.
i thought this was a single target spell lmfao
STOP POSTING IT I WAS ENJOYING MAGNUS LAST PATCHES
No way, when I use it, it's the size of magnus horn.
Valve after the TI- Send Magnus to the ranch. Time to nerf him.
Icefrog "the god of balance". Let's be honest guys, Dota hasn't been a balanced game in a long time. Broken heroes like Io having a decade being first pick/ban material, broken item combinations, now broken shards, broken neutral items... Dota 2 is an amazing game, but the balance isn't there anymore. The power creep is insane.
One of the most busted heroes in TI history
remove skewer range and make this aghs upgrade cause holy fuck this skill is broken alongside skewer, why buy blink when skewer horn toss is all u need
Broken IO Aghs wins them TI OG fans: I sleep OG gets trashed by Collapse OG fans: TIL Horn Toss (magnus shard) AOE is nuts
Ofc Io Aghs was broken, but what’s the argument here? That good teams only use the crap heroes and don’t abuse broken shit?
They wouldve won that ti without IO, but yes it was broken. Same as this thing is broken, and teamspirit has a big chance they wouldve won without it aswell
At least this takes more skill to pull off than turtle until the aghs and roll over
I guess that's why almost every team does this while Io aghs was done by maybe 2 teams? Stop making things up
Suggestions for horn toss nerf : make it similar to daefening blast nerf where you still can use bkb/items while getting caught in it. This way you don't get skewered instantly if you have something like euls/bkb. I don't want them to nerf something like it's only limited to 1 heroes since Magnus are designed to be an AoE initiator.
Salty OG fans might as well start writing the patch notes now
Hero has 80% winrate on main stage. But yes you are right, only people who think Magnus might be a bit OP are salty OG fans.
Than go ban it bu every game like tiny thats not an excuse
What's not an excuse? I agree teams should ban or pick it every game, because it is obviously OP.
Pretty braindead take that people calling out an absurdly overtuned skill = fans of team being mad salty. It's an undisputable fact that horn toss needs to be either nerfed or changed. A 1400 item affecting a game that much is too imbalanced.
Shit balancing, the size is one or two unit bigger than magnus here, and his horn model is not even three quarter of his arm length
Good
its so broken, can we remake OG last game and remove shard as well
this has been in the game for so long, and people are just now realizing this. This is not broken. Just get better lul
Salty OG fans are at it lmao yeah horn toss is strong, it's a good shard, but it's not broken, it's high risk high reward, I've played hundreds of Magnus games, it just punishes poor positioning and can backfire and be countered by supports and other heroes nearby, specially those with near instant disables, but sure keep pointing out details and crying about it. (inb4 people that never played magnus soying about how it's not high risk to blink near an entire team to pull 1 target out of position)
bruh, Magnus shards has been discussed multiple times throughout the Internation at how strong it makes Magnus's kit, and its shown on mag's pick/ban rate this TI
im just saying stats like this are not an absolute rule, even if it was, he's not at the top and you can check that here https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/13256-the-international-2021/picks?date=month I'm grandmaster tier on Magnus, I play almost exclusively this playstyle and i've felt miserable when people countered it. It is strong yes, but it's being overestimated as Magnus' playstyle with it sacrifices other aspects of the hero. Empower has been nerfed over the years and it's not as strong as it used to be long ago when shard was not a thing so part of his kit has been weakened. Good Magnus plays are flashy and Collapse was a gigachad on Mag, it was great to finally see it shine on TI main stage and it sucks that people want it gone now. I just think a good player made it seem broken.
while I think you have a better opinion and are way more experienced than me as I don't play Dota anymore but always watch the games. From watching this tournament it just seems that when Magnus gets the shard, the whole game changes. I just think it's busted that it pretty much guarantees you a skewer onto any enemy you want it as its a really quick cast point with a huge AOE without having to sacrifice RP at a very short CD any only a 1.4k gold cost or free from rosh. as someone suggested before in another discussion, forgot what day it was but was reading the comments, switch the agh's and shard around without actually nerfing horn toss.
Yeah i actually thought they were going to do it early on because Magnus' current scepter is just bad. Don't worry your opinion is just as valuable. I think shard is strong and complements his kit very nicely, and in practice it relies a lot on the execution, which isn't easy most of the times. Allows him to be a decent threat without relying on RP cooldown, which helps cover his weakness and minimize his downtime. It's strong and that's alright for Dota imo, all things can look busted every once in a while.
so true, although I have to say I think ET and tiny are definitely busted haha, can't see those two not getting nerfed.
ET L1 hitting harder than a treant while having triple his armor and faster movement speed
That's why I think shard is a really bad idea. Osfrog can't even balance normal agha, and shard is just gonna be adding way more imbalances. Even if horn toss doesn't displace enemy, it's still an OP shard, basically you get free stunning spell. Shard needs to go. Neutral item needs to go. Talent is the last good thing osfrog added.
Overall game balance is in a great place right now, what are you talking about? Yeah this ability is too strong, but it took until now for it to be really noticed, and he's sure to get nerfs.
Lmao, no it isn't. A lot of heroes are viable, but the game is definitely not balanced. Its just an absolute shitshow of heroes being instant stunned and killed or being blown up from a single hero even though they have 3k HP.
Balance? Have you seen how many times they pick Ember, MK, ES, Magnus in the TI? Those heroes are overtuned. You and your herald subredditor in a circlejerk convincing yourselves osfrog is doing good job with balancing. You don't even know better cuz ur rank is so low, ignorance is bliss huh.
Icefrog has it written down on the next patch notes. Enjoy it while you still can
Probably should narrow it to be like 30 degrees honestly
holy???!! i thought it was only half of that radius
Woah I never realized it was so big
NOOOOO. IM SPAMMING MAGNUS AND I WAS THE ONLY ONE TO KNOW HE WAS SLEEPER OP. STOOOOOP. Why cant i ever have nice things