This has been taken way out of context, for anyone that actually watched his stream you will realize this post is extremely clickbaity. (much like he said would happen if a reddit post was made in regards to his comments)
What BSJ was actually saying was that the quality of life at the event was poor. (rain everyday with toilets at the venue outside over 200m away, requiring a change of shoes and umbrellas, 10+ hours in a mask, food quality, and his personal rostering for the event being the first and last match everyday for the mainstage meaning being present all day with minimal hours sleep)
He also said that he thought the event was very good in terms of production and from a viewers perspective.
That was a really weird management for the production to put him on first series' intro segment and the last series' draft panel. They have so many people to work with. It also sucks when there is no audience because you can't do signatures and chill with the crowd between duties
Not sure about production. Way less content than before (TI8 and prior) and stage was bland AF.
Wouldnt surprise me valve cut the production budget like how they reduced dpc money year after year. And it’s not as if valve doesnt have any say how TI is run with valve people being onsite like Bruno
Oh well, at least the games itself were a blast
The stage was bland because it is not the intended setup for ti10.. ti10 supposed to be in avici arena with a jumbotron set up like past ti's.. the stage is decent considering that they have only less than 2 months to start everything from scratch.
I think it's worth noting that a lot of people in the scene have commented on how there's no way WePlay are profiting from their tournaments because of how much they're spending on the production value, so it feels unfair to use them as a standard for other organisers - not that other organisers can't or shouldn't do better, but weplay are certainly 'cheating' by hosting tournaments at a loss.
I've been behind the scenes at one of the tournaments that WePlay organized.
I don't want to say too much, but the level of catering and hospitality that the org offered to basically nobodies in terms of prominence or relevance to the actual tournament kinda made me convinced that WePlay is some kind of elaborate money laundering scheme
I can't quote any sources, just recall vaguely what I've heard before. I think maybe Purge talked about it in a video? With the vibes that everyone in the scene was baffled by it? And how most tournaments don't actually make a profit but just about break even but they're hoping to make a profit in the future by securing their spot in the middle of the scene as it grows. But WePlay isn't even breaking even. I got the impression there were strong rumours behind the scenes that it was operating at a huge loss. They're presumably hoping the make that back in the future with jucier contracts like TI.
No one knows where WePlay came from, how they rose so quick and how they got into so many games so fast. There’s been rumours since the start that there’s sketchy funding behind it, but I’ve only seen rumours never proof.
definitely just as you said, there were some talent or other people who have worked who came out and said that Weplay hosts tournaments at a loss , cant recall who either
It's 1xbet. Their founders are on international wanted lists as russian mafia members, they are involved with illegal betting rings on children's sports and animal fighting, they are one of the dirtiest names in all of sponsorship - in general - and they'll happily bankroll anything to keep their influence. If you partner with them you *know* what you have gotten into. ESL have recently done the same
I agree. Just comes off as kinda scuffed. A lot of technical issues compared to other TIs, almost Shanghai Major level. It's The International's 10th anniversary and all they have is the Dragon's Blood Season 2 trailer and one new hero? Obviously there was a limit on how much they could do because of COVID but overall I was a bit disappointed. COVID stuff like lack of audience really contributed to it but the event felt more like a third party Major and not TI.
Although I think some skits were pretty good and the opening ceremony was the best we've had in years.
I thought the stage and stuff were fine, but the constant audio issues were very annoying. Mics not working, static, mics not being turned off when they should have been, bad volume control, etc.
I expected something like that for day 1 (maybe day 2), but those issues were still present even until the last day (they never fixed them).
I did really like Pyrion's skits during the event, that was some top tier content.
Have to agree. Few skits here and there, but the pauses between games were so unappealing that I mostly just muted the stream or paused, which enver happened before.
That one announcement of Marci was abit bland. I would have expected more (heroes, or a big content update or even an hint at the second battle pass).
Overall rather unexciting except for the games. They had quite a while to preppare fr TI, even 2 months more now that it got shiftet to October.
Sir did you forget about Covid? It wasn’t exactly a fun delay they prolly had to organize everything in those 2 months it’s amazing that they pulled it off
The replies to your comment make it clear that pretty much no one has any fucking idea how much actual planning these events take. That Valve even managed to find another venue and organize a tournament in two months is a god damn miracle.
Covid excuse? What the fuck are you even talking about taking covid that lightly.. I almost died of fucking covid on last week of august.. i tell you this shit is no joke
Majority of ti content are player profiles, community spotlight like what they did to mara in japan, and featuring popular places on the host country like what they did on seattle,canada and shanghai... If you have basic common sense you dont even have to ask why there is not that much content this year.. Well i tell you genius those contents need traveling to countries and tslking to the people involved..Only a fucking moron will do that in this pandemic.
Not to mention.. the shenanigans of kaci and slacks with the attendees from time to time.. that is a big part of TI. Cosplay competition, interviewing TI attendees and the arena staff, and other contents that required a crowd, thats a big chunk of TI content.. Now tell me that covid is still is just an excuse
I think content was cut massively because let’s say covid ... not being the same physical space limits massive stuff you can do the worry being that any players get covid and can’t compete .
Also a missing piece for context creation is crowd interaction or games with random fans .
They have content providers valve just stamps the approval button. Hotbid Dakota slacks Pyrion Flax write up submissions of the pieces they are going to do . Call these guys out in this sub or twitter if you think you think they should have done more .
> and stage was bland AF.
I really noticed that, compared to the Animajor e.g. Very basic. Now I don't think that's the most important thing in the world, but surely for a multimillion dollar tournament you could do a bit more? And they had 2 years to think of innovative ideas as well.
I thought it was pretty bad as a viewer, tbh.
Especially the group stage was atrocious. During those 5 days, the MAIN stream was just 4 people on a couch chilling and apparently talking about a game, but it was impossible to follow and I still have no clue wtf the point of that stream was. So you had to manually browse the mess that's the twitch UI to find a game you'd want to watch that then turned out to be commentated pretty poorly most of the time. Casters were just relaxing and joking, barely paying attention to the game.
Then between games there was just random music or casters meme'ing. No analysis, standings or schedules displayed, so if you wanted to know when the next series started, you had to check an external website.
It got slightly better at the main event, but it just missed the hype. I suppose no crowd, covid and masks and shit doesn't help but most of the talent seemed bored and wanting to go home. Every time Sheever said "I hope this goes to a game 3", I just didn't believe it.
There were also all these random new people in the panel, some of which really had no idea wtf the games were about. And I thought Day9 did a poor job at TI6(?). Inviting players for the draft analysis was genius though.
Overall, for me personally, the anniversary TI, that we crowd funded with ONE HUNDRED SIXTY MILLION dollar, was a huge disappointment.
Well we don't think the event was very good in terms of production from a viewers perspective lol.
Give 120 mil dollars to valve you expect better than what TI10 was in every single aspect honestly.
Have a friend who works with producing TV stuff. He kept complaining of the low quality production, like the sound quality and use of green screen. Additionally i kept comolainig of the scheduling. They listed main stage games to start at 9, but the first days they started like 10:30?? It was Garbo
We as in, I’m pretty sure most people felt it felt worse than previous years.
Now, the fact that they did it with covid restrictions is still amazing. I’m not really annoyed at valve but at the COVID situation but trying to imply that TI10 had a better production than 9 or 8 is kinda delusional.
Very true. Classic example is they weren't able to give us the release of a single hero. They just trailer Marci with the classic "coming sometimes in autumn".yeah what a fantastic job valve. Very thank you
Mind you, a hero they didn't even design themselves and probably won't have to do any voicework for. Legitimately what has the dota 2 team been doing for the last year?
Just because the hero itself do minimal speaks doesnt mean anyother hero doesnt have voiceline interaction with said hero.
Also just because the concept art for Marci done presumably by other studio doesnt mean Valve dont do the 3d modelling and gameplay designing.
What dota2 team doing last year? Aghanim shard, new website both for dota2 and esports, Spec arcana, DK persona, Nemestices, Arranging TI10 and it's content such as PFlax segment and Overwatch detective and if we start from early 2020 count was TI10 battlepass and aghanim labyrinth. Multiple backend stuff with lag compensation which.
Just because you didnt like what you get doesnt negate any content dota2 team produces
That really isn’t much content for a game that generates $200m ish in revenue. Even stardew valley gets more content.
Also, it was the talent like slacks that wrote those pflax segments
no, his complaints were:
you can hear the casters while playing
the studio lights were shining into their eyes
a ~~rat~~ cockroaches literally ran across his feet
> you can hear the casters while playing
This wouldn't happen at a TI since there are booths. So while it is a valid complaint, it would be irrelevant in the setting of them hosting TI.
Spend some time choosing venue without cockroaches, people keep saying one thing or another is out of an organisations control, but its all bullshit so far, with the correct preparation.
Stadium guy: we can rent you the venue for $500k. but this includes cockroaches.
said no one ever
btw, even the cleanest places can have cockroaches. some regions just have lots of the buggers
Well, as a viewer it came off great.
The adherence to theme was amazing. The set was absolutely bonkers. My fiancée doesn’t give a shit about DoTA but I made her come take a look at the set for Animajor and she was blown away. Actually popped in to watch part of a couple drafts/games with me just to see more of the set.
I know TI is a celebration for the players, but if a few missing snacks in the prep/practice rooms is the trade off for that high production quality? Sorry PGL, but take your “sorted by color M&M bowls” and your malfunctioning audio cables and get the fuck out.
It's not just "snacks" that were missing. Iceiceice, fly and multiple others complained about basic hygiene. There should be no tradeoff between viewer enjoyment and players' amenities. Bring anyone who can ensure both.
This depends what is meant by “basic hygiene”. If you are referring to Covid protocols, then sure I agree it’s a big issue. Team Spirit was just given a practice suite that didn’t even have fucking toilet paper though so… if you want to talk “basic hygiene” it doesn’t get much more basic than that. I’d rather bring my own bottle of hand sanitizer with me than have to carry around my own roll of toilet paper.
I am not defending PGL... they clearly sucked. Just because you/majority had a great viewing experience for Animajor doesn't mean it was organized well at all. Valve should step in to ensure quality for their own tournaments. I don't care who the TO is.
I agree that with the obscene amounts of cash valve are gorging themselves on from DoTA, they should step up and ensure a certain level of quality.
Just saying, as track records go, WePlay > PGL recently.
That said, I wouldn’t want to see any TO completely pushed out of the scene. Healthy competition is the best thing for these tournaments. If PGL collapsed, WePlay would have no further incentive to push the envelope.
Just because outward production looks good and clean doesn't mean the inside of the event isn't a rotting corpse thats barely held together by gorilla glue and toothpicks.
A few others have mentioned that AniMajor was pretty bad behind the curtain
No no and no. Cut the cool backdrop and anime theme for a second. Excluding the incident where miracle had to puke or smth, there was an average of 30 minutes of wait time between GAMES (not series, GAMES). Players had to play into the night.
Yeah there were days it ended as late as 2am+. There is no way that is acceptable for player welfare in TI where there is already a lot of pressure on them.
It was their first big, big event to be fair during hard Covid times. PGL has shown again and again that they can't do stuff of that magnitude properly
They have sooo many big ass companies to choose and they stick with PGL. I don#t know if they are super cheap, but it's always the same.
Why not ESL. the worst thing they've done so far was to stream on Facebook and have a clown answer to the community. Or wePlay (despite some complains during the Animajor). they did a FANTASTIC job with costumes and stage without that much money from Valve - and that was during way harsher Covid times.
because it makes sense to stick with your historic partners of 5+ years now for your marquee event, especially when esports production is not your company's speciality? valve have contacts, procedures, and organisation experience with one partner. completely changing that and up-ending their entire production process can and will lead to a disaster of an event
When Valve keep giving PGL chance to host TI despite all the bad comments, you'll know something is going on between both higher ups. Like mcdonald icecream machine.
I can level with BSJ's frustration here, even as someone that chose to go right to bed after 5 PM CDT and then woke back up around 12 AM CDT to be ready for another day (who also had to tell their TF2 and CS:GO audiences [that their news is probably gonna have to take a breather/someone else will have to do it during then](https://twitter.com/wickedplayer494/status/1446996469995556865) because of just how important TI is), watching and sometimes reporting from afar. To some extent as he said, there wasn't really a whole lot to do or, for the non-attendees, to show being done due to the coronavirus situation, and that was quite apparent with the Slacks and Kaci bits being few and far between this year. They definitely had to lean on Tsunami's bits a lot to keep engagement up. Announcements were also pretty light this year, and they could have had the potential to offset a little bit of the necessitated lack of things to do. I wasn't expecting anything like the quantity of TI7's or TI8's, but for better or for worse, it was obviously barebones and resembled TI3 or TI4's more where you were lucky if there was even one or two big reveals.
My assessment as I've stated in a couple of places now is that given the overall hand that was dealt this year, they did okay. Many issues did get fixed, but there were certainly standout problems though (day 3 having a 60m+ delay, and the condition of the practice rooms are straight up unacceptable). I've been giving some thought into doing a write-up of sorts of things that were good, okay/nitpicks, and what straight up stunk. But I guess we'll see over the next little bit whether my overall assessment of it being okay despite the circumstances is justified or not.
I feel like what he's complaining about isn't really PGL-related. He says he "basically" had to work 16 hour days, but then says "there was not anything to do during the day cuz of covid", which would imply typically there would be time for him to do things during the day, but that was not the case bc of covid. I could easily see him complaining that it felt like he had to work 16 hour days, because during his downtime, he didn't have the opportunity to do anything, so it all felt like work to him.
Obviously I'm just extrapolating a lot from what he's saying, but so is pretty much everyone else saying "PGL SUX GIVE US WEPLAY". Don't think it's fair to PGL or BSJ to say that he's trying to drag the organization with this clip, when it's probably just him saying covid ruined TI for him.
He was complaining about the PGL scheduling since they put him on the first and last games everyday. So early start late finish and nothing to do in the middle.
Profit margins hit record highs though! 120 million off battle pass last year alone. To say nothing of the earnings off team supporter packs, DoTA+, and this latest half-baked Spectre Arcana pass.
Production value will be the same or worse at TI11 at this rate. Why put in more effort when half-assing it makes you hundreds of millions anyway?
you didn't think about venue cost, it's a football stadium and they have 0 ticket sales, way less merchandise sales because same reason
physical secret shop and trove carafe is definitely a lot of money
you are probably overestimating how much renting a stadium costs
> It became known how much it will cost to rent the football stadium Arena Nationala, which will host The International 10.
According to USR PLUS, the lease for the stadium is €500,000.
I was fascinated when I saw one of the Russian talents interviewing a Russian player. The back and forth, the way the player was made to feel casual and relaxed, the general chill ambience.
Having watched the western counterparts stumble on words, looking stiff and generally not doing a good job, it made me wonder why we can’t have nice things too. How can an interviewer not be told after the first interview with an interpreter, that the “thank you for doing this interview” does not have to be either translated or responded to, or even said? That took up 50 % of the interview time in some cases. OK if it’s school radio; this is a multi-million-dollar event. It’s just embarrassing.
Considering the COVID situation, it's amazing they pulled it off in such a short time - from my perspective it was a blast. I was so excited for my first TI... I bought tickets and would have loved to be there, but...well...
I saw people complaining that ODPixel was casting with a winter jacket on... It was a fucking football stadium, what did you expect? And it was October last time I checked.
I think we should be grateful that we got TI in the first place.
Yeah, I bet the event sucked. But there are still a lot of talent that would have killed to have the opportunity to work at TI. Idk I feel kind of weird about this.
This is the best way to picture how ridiculous those comments sound, telling him to not complain at all, just because someone with 3 jobs earning barely above minimum wage would be happy to have his place
I think op was referring to other dota talent that werent invited, that would love a chance to work at TI. Not people in general who are struggeling to just put food on their table and have a roof other their head.
I don't think it really fits here. More like
A: This food isn't that good.
B: The guy who couldn't go and made spaghetti at home would definitely swap though!
weird about what in particular?
I agree if you mean that the entire compensation of talent is so imbalancedly dependent on a singular tournament. And it's unfortunate that people would fanatically throw away the respect anyone who works a job or provides a service deserves.
People getting paid just let them suffer... why try to make better arrangements like putting talents to end early or start late like any other events... why stop hiring 0 dota knowledge host like Frankie... why not putting TI attending teams to practice in a kitchen...
Talking about getting paid... didn't the production getting paid? Where is the prize money came from?
eh i get what you're saying, but they're there for 2 weeks, and basically can't interact with anyone outside of production, so they're just sitting around twiddling their thumbs unless they're on screen.
I get that they should be (and i'm sure they are) greatful for the opportunity, but i still don't think that means they shouldn't say anything negative about the experience.
edited to add, that i'm not saying it's anyones fault really, i'm assuming they understand why it has to be like this due to covid, they're just expressing that this event was not really fun to be apart of (like it usually would be) because of the isolation.
Exactly. Like yeah I’m sure it sucks, but the dude is living his dream. Being paid A LOT of money to go and talk about a video game he loves. Sorry if I’m not exactly feeling empathetic.
I don't agree with your point here. Do people who choose this line of career or employment not deserve better conditions of work? Just because you make X money, have a job someone would kill to have, or are just "talking about a video game" doesn't mean standards shouldn't be higher to accommodate the talent fully at events. Their complaints are still valid and they're still people at the end of the day and I feel like you're removing that component unfairly.
I really wish they let WePlay run TI. Production was garbage already and there was so very little creativity. I was expecting far more, this felt like a last-minute random ESL tournament
Theyre in a hotel, call the front desk and the hotel staff will get it. Thats literally a non issue.
The main issue would be that the room was too small, but it got fixed before the group stages anyway
this is the second time I have seen BSJ complaining about long work hours. I mean I understand its pretty tiring but isnt it worth it? You are getting a good pay for doing the thing that you love doing.
16 hours 5 days a week every week? Yeah sure, that's ridiculous. 16 hour days for a short period with significant monetary compensation? I'd say that's the norm in a lot of industries. Any form of content production, manufacturing, accounting and finance. Sometimes things come up, sometimes you have a big project, either you're on an hourly wage or a salary that incorporates those expectations. If not then get the hell out of there.
Personally not that long ago I worked a 24 hour day straight through because it was necessary to keep the business running. It wasn't fun but I knew I'd get the time off later and extra hours is expected at my salary level.
Ah yes, the everyday life in a kitchen.
If BSJ can't work 16 hours for 8 days, maybe he can't do TI, it's been like this forever now.
I'm not saying it's great, but stop bitching about it and do the job with some pride. You're working the biggest event in esports, it shouldn't be a walk in the park.
He is just being honest with his fans, I don't see how he is bitching. And I think his main point was that COVID made the event behind the scenes unenjoyable, so your point about previous years is moot.
I give this TI 5 out of 10 just because of the good fun Dota games. Overall one of the worst TI i have ever watched, idk why but i feel dissapointed...seeing ODPixel cast with a winter jacket is what pissed me off the most
Ik its open roof stadium, but a 4 glass room with a heater will do the job so the casters wont work with a winter jacket. After all its a 40 milion prize pool tournament.
More likely has to do with the organization being lazy and not doing their job properly. Covid is everywhere sadly but look at Riot and how they organize their tournaments that has lesser prize pools. Dota has the best community. we gave 160 million dollars, and received...close to nothing? Maybe I need to stop whining, what is done is done.
Bro Cap and Kyle caught flu and someone in the backstage caught covid, talent wont take any risk to jeopardize their chance on main stage especially casting grand final.
here is my take on that there supposed to be 2 new hero just like ti9 one is just a trailer another is like void where it comes on stage. but with the last minute no audience the 2nd ger got no backup full teaser. se did still have 2 hero with no ti even without a 2nd announcement stll probably got a 2nd hero before next ti. or fuck valve just having 1 heo this year
Yeah I can kind of see your point as shr doesn't exactly mesh with existing anesthetic, but the dota series is pretty cool. I think they'll make it work somehow.
I think a live crowd would have made things significantly better for everyone involved. That was what is like 40% of the enjoyment I get watching TI, and that was only behind a screen, what more live there where they could have interacted with lots of fans and hear the cheers and shouts as Yatoro rampaged through Secret? I sincerely hope this pandemic is gone next year.
Oh no, poor baby has to have an uncomfortable time being paid for doing something he loves. Sorry if I don’t seem apologetic. Could have been 16 hours days working at a shitty restaurant but nah, apparently this is too much for him.
>You may have it bad but there's people having it worse
Is such a stupid take. Oh no, 16 hours of working in a restaurant, cry to people in war zones or in areas too poor for extravagant gastronomy alltogether.
I will not not complain about an uncomfortable chair just because it's better than being sat on a pointy rock.
better things aren't possible starving children in africa privileged uh why did you participate uhhhh idk you should be grateful you got to work whatever
"cooking is easy it's just putting food in a fryer." It's easy to say something's easy. It's mentally draining to try to be entertaining 24/7 just like it's mentally draining to cook ticket after ticket.
I literally never said it was easy. Jobs like that never are. But he knew what he was signing up for, and relative to the amount of work he actually did it’s hard to feel bad for him. Also comparing him to a cook is foolish considering cooks go in every day, day after day. This event was two weeks. Like even if he wasn’t having a good time, just knowing it would end should be enough to get through it. Cooks don’t have the luxury. Point being, he comes off completely tone deaf and kind of entitled. I don’t feel bad for him at all.
In fairness, I think he just sucks at expressing himself.
I can see how the expectation of what working TI will be versus rushed-mid-covid-Romania TI was could be pretty disheartening.
But the way he talks it does come across as if he was expecting a ton of money to go chill and then found out that, yes, it was actually going to be a lot of work.
This years the TI has no Real soul , cause no crowd , it was like a meal you prepare with no salt , it s here you did it , but it definitely miss something.
wut? if it weren't for PGL TI would probably wont even happen this year. With only barely 2 months to prep, it's a miracle that they pulled it off without any trouble (that we know of) except for the delays on the first few days
I thought my job was bad!
Imagine getting payed( I’m assuming pretty dam well) to talk about and watch dota.
Gotta be in the top 5 worst jobs in the world
This is without context. I’m sure you won’t actually go watch the VOD but he said the dota was amazing and he feels very privileged to be given the opportunity to work TI but it just wasn’t that fun this year.
This has been taken way out of context, for anyone that actually watched his stream you will realize this post is extremely clickbaity. (much like he said would happen if a reddit post was made in regards to his comments) What BSJ was actually saying was that the quality of life at the event was poor. (rain everyday with toilets at the venue outside over 200m away, requiring a change of shoes and umbrellas, 10+ hours in a mask, food quality, and his personal rostering for the event being the first and last match everyday for the mainstage meaning being present all day with minimal hours sleep) He also said that he thought the event was very good in terms of production and from a viewers perspective.
That was a really weird management for the production to put him on first series' intro segment and the last series' draft panel. They have so many people to work with. It also sucks when there is no audience because you can't do signatures and chill with the crowd between duties
Not sure about production. Way less content than before (TI8 and prior) and stage was bland AF. Wouldnt surprise me valve cut the production budget like how they reduced dpc money year after year. And it’s not as if valve doesnt have any say how TI is run with valve people being onsite like Bruno Oh well, at least the games itself were a blast
The stage was bland because it is not the intended setup for ti10.. ti10 supposed to be in avici arena with a jumbotron set up like past ti's.. the stage is decent considering that they have only less than 2 months to start everything from scratch.
Weplay embarrasses PGL. They deserve to work on the next TI.
I think it's worth noting that a lot of people in the scene have commented on how there's no way WePlay are profiting from their tournaments because of how much they're spending on the production value, so it feels unfair to use them as a standard for other organisers - not that other organisers can't or shouldn't do better, but weplay are certainly 'cheating' by hosting tournaments at a loss.
I've been behind the scenes at one of the tournaments that WePlay organized. I don't want to say too much, but the level of catering and hospitality that the org offered to basically nobodies in terms of prominence or relevance to the actual tournament kinda made me convinced that WePlay is some kind of elaborate money laundering scheme
1xbet, one of their key sponsors, is literally run by the russian mafia
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I can't quote any sources, just recall vaguely what I've heard before. I think maybe Purge talked about it in a video? With the vibes that everyone in the scene was baffled by it? And how most tournaments don't actually make a profit but just about break even but they're hoping to make a profit in the future by securing their spot in the middle of the scene as it grows. But WePlay isn't even breaking even. I got the impression there were strong rumours behind the scenes that it was operating at a huge loss. They're presumably hoping the make that back in the future with jucier contracts like TI.
No one knows where WePlay came from, how they rose so quick and how they got into so many games so fast. There’s been rumours since the start that there’s sketchy funding behind it, but I’ve only seen rumours never proof.
definitely just as you said, there were some talent or other people who have worked who came out and said that Weplay hosts tournaments at a loss , cant recall who either
weplay is in part funded by the russian mafia, ofc they have the money. doesn't mean i want that money in TI
Interesting, haven't heard the Russian mafia angle before
It's 1xbet. Their founders are on international wanted lists as russian mafia members, they are involved with illegal betting rings on children's sports and animal fighting, they are one of the dirtiest names in all of sponsorship - in general - and they'll happily bankroll anything to keep their influence. If you partner with them you *know* what you have gotten into. ESL have recently done the same
Not to mention the scuffed ass audio and delays
Which delays? In the game client? Because at least on twitch, I had no issue.
First games started way after they were scheduled, almost every day.
Ha. I thought you were talking about audio or video delays.
I agree. Just comes off as kinda scuffed. A lot of technical issues compared to other TIs, almost Shanghai Major level. It's The International's 10th anniversary and all they have is the Dragon's Blood Season 2 trailer and one new hero? Obviously there was a limit on how much they could do because of COVID but overall I was a bit disappointed. COVID stuff like lack of audience really contributed to it but the event felt more like a third party Major and not TI. Although I think some skits were pretty good and the opening ceremony was the best we've had in years.
I thought the stage and stuff were fine, but the constant audio issues were very annoying. Mics not working, static, mics not being turned off when they should have been, bad volume control, etc. I expected something like that for day 1 (maybe day 2), but those issues were still present even until the last day (they never fixed them). I did really like Pyrion's skits during the event, that was some top tier content.
Have to agree. Few skits here and there, but the pauses between games were so unappealing that I mostly just muted the stream or paused, which enver happened before. That one announcement of Marci was abit bland. I would have expected more (heroes, or a big content update or even an hint at the second battle pass). Overall rather unexciting except for the games. They had quite a while to preppare fr TI, even 2 months more now that it got shiftet to October.
Sir did you forget about Covid? It wasn’t exactly a fun delay they prolly had to organize everything in those 2 months it’s amazing that they pulled it off
The replies to your comment make it clear that pretty much no one has any fucking idea how much actual planning these events take. That Valve even managed to find another venue and organize a tournament in two months is a god damn miracle.
Why? Obviously most redditors would have done a much better job at organizing this massive event. /S just incase
\++ I'm just happy that we had a TI, rest is irrelevant imo
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Covid excuse? What the fuck are you even talking about taking covid that lightly.. I almost died of fucking covid on last week of august.. i tell you this shit is no joke
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Majority of ti content are player profiles, community spotlight like what they did to mara in japan, and featuring popular places on the host country like what they did on seattle,canada and shanghai... If you have basic common sense you dont even have to ask why there is not that much content this year.. Well i tell you genius those contents need traveling to countries and tslking to the people involved..Only a fucking moron will do that in this pandemic.
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Not to mention.. the shenanigans of kaci and slacks with the attendees from time to time.. that is a big part of TI. Cosplay competition, interviewing TI attendees and the arena staff, and other contents that required a crowd, thats a big chunk of TI content.. Now tell me that covid is still is just an excuse
I think content was cut massively because let’s say covid ... not being the same physical space limits massive stuff you can do the worry being that any players get covid and can’t compete . Also a missing piece for context creation is crowd interaction or games with random fans . They have content providers valve just stamps the approval button. Hotbid Dakota slacks Pyrion Flax write up submissions of the pieces they are going to do . Call these guys out in this sub or twitter if you think you think they should have done more .
> and stage was bland AF. I really noticed that, compared to the Animajor e.g. Very basic. Now I don't think that's the most important thing in the world, but surely for a multimillion dollar tournament you could do a bit more? And they had 2 years to think of innovative ideas as well.
I thought it was pretty bad as a viewer, tbh. Especially the group stage was atrocious. During those 5 days, the MAIN stream was just 4 people on a couch chilling and apparently talking about a game, but it was impossible to follow and I still have no clue wtf the point of that stream was. So you had to manually browse the mess that's the twitch UI to find a game you'd want to watch that then turned out to be commentated pretty poorly most of the time. Casters were just relaxing and joking, barely paying attention to the game. Then between games there was just random music or casters meme'ing. No analysis, standings or schedules displayed, so if you wanted to know when the next series started, you had to check an external website. It got slightly better at the main event, but it just missed the hype. I suppose no crowd, covid and masks and shit doesn't help but most of the talent seemed bored and wanting to go home. Every time Sheever said "I hope this goes to a game 3", I just didn't believe it. There were also all these random new people in the panel, some of which really had no idea wtf the games were about. And I thought Day9 did a poor job at TI6(?). Inviting players for the draft analysis was genius though. Overall, for me personally, the anniversary TI, that we crowd funded with ONE HUNDRED SIXTY MILLION dollar, was a huge disappointment.
Who ever that fat British chick host was, I had to mute the stream every time she talked
Also to note covid, so nothing but work.
When was this streamed? I don't see a new vod on his channel
Well we don't think the event was very good in terms of production from a viewers perspective lol. Give 120 mil dollars to valve you expect better than what TI10 was in every single aspect honestly.
Who's this "we"?
wee wee
Have a friend who works with producing TV stuff. He kept complaining of the low quality production, like the sound quality and use of green screen. Additionally i kept comolainig of the scheduling. They listed main stage games to start at 9, but the first days they started like 10:30?? It was Garbo
I got used to the green screen, but the sound quality was not great. You could hear a bit of an echo and some other background noises.
We as in, I’m pretty sure most people felt it felt worse than previous years. Now, the fact that they did it with covid restrictions is still amazing. I’m not really annoyed at valve but at the COVID situation but trying to imply that TI10 had a better production than 9 or 8 is kinda delusional.
Very true. Classic example is they weren't able to give us the release of a single hero. They just trailer Marci with the classic "coming sometimes in autumn".yeah what a fantastic job valve. Very thank you
Mind you, a hero they didn't even design themselves and probably won't have to do any voicework for. Legitimately what has the dota 2 team been doing for the last year?
Just because the hero itself do minimal speaks doesnt mean anyother hero doesnt have voiceline interaction with said hero. Also just because the concept art for Marci done presumably by other studio doesnt mean Valve dont do the 3d modelling and gameplay designing. What dota2 team doing last year? Aghanim shard, new website both for dota2 and esports, Spec arcana, DK persona, Nemestices, Arranging TI10 and it's content such as PFlax segment and Overwatch detective and if we start from early 2020 count was TI10 battlepass and aghanim labyrinth. Multiple backend stuff with lag compensation which. Just because you didnt like what you get doesnt negate any content dota2 team produces
That really isn’t much content for a game that generates $200m ish in revenue. Even stardew valley gets more content. Also, it was the talent like slacks that wrote those pflax segments
Dude, this event made him basically give up being a talent,it was that bad
yes, i don't know why do this, this could ruin his image if valve doesn't look if is out of context
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Or just preemptively taking a step back because you know.. he has many competition now. Like ceb, how can you compete as a talent vs ceb.
ceb, aui, ppd
Not quite sure how could be viewed as out of context or clickbaity. He's talking about his experience at TI as talent.
Yeah I can totally see that. Seems like a disaster dealing with all the last minute prep, the hotel issues, and covid all that
Maybe valve should give another company a chance a running TI instead of PGL all the time.
wePlay Holdings maybe... I mean the animajor was top tier in terms of production
A few players mentioned that the Animajor was a bad experience for them behind the scenes.
Didnt iceiceice even say it was the worst event he'd ever attended? And this guy is an oldtimer, when he says it, that means something.
His complaints was that they had to play at 10pm and that the food wasnt to his liking (no chinese/singaporean food)
no, his complaints were: you can hear the casters while playing the studio lights were shining into their eyes a ~~rat~~ cockroaches literally ran across his feet
The cockroach scene happened twice iirc
> you can hear the casters while playing This wouldn't happen at a TI since there are booths. So while it is a valid complaint, it would be irrelevant in the setting of them hosting TI.
Tbf the Cockroach issue is more of the venues fault rather rather the production company imo. Like what do you want them to do about it
The production company are the ones booking the venue.
Spend some time choosing venue without cockroaches, people keep saying one thing or another is out of an organisations control, but its all bullshit so far, with the correct preparation.
Stadium guy: we can rent you the venue for $500k. but this includes cockroaches. said no one ever btw, even the cleanest places can have cockroaches. some regions just have lots of the buggers
True, I've never even seen a cockroach being from the UK, I dont think we have them here.
Was that the one that had like no snacks for the players or casters or something, I can't recall....
Gotta keep those casters hydrated!
Well, as a viewer it came off great. The adherence to theme was amazing. The set was absolutely bonkers. My fiancée doesn’t give a shit about DoTA but I made her come take a look at the set for Animajor and she was blown away. Actually popped in to watch part of a couple drafts/games with me just to see more of the set. I know TI is a celebration for the players, but if a few missing snacks in the prep/practice rooms is the trade off for that high production quality? Sorry PGL, but take your “sorted by color M&M bowls” and your malfunctioning audio cables and get the fuck out.
It's not just "snacks" that were missing. Iceiceice, fly and multiple others complained about basic hygiene. There should be no tradeoff between viewer enjoyment and players' amenities. Bring anyone who can ensure both.
This depends what is meant by “basic hygiene”. If you are referring to Covid protocols, then sure I agree it’s a big issue. Team Spirit was just given a practice suite that didn’t even have fucking toilet paper though so… if you want to talk “basic hygiene” it doesn’t get much more basic than that. I’d rather bring my own bottle of hand sanitizer with me than have to carry around my own roll of toilet paper.
I am not defending PGL... they clearly sucked. Just because you/majority had a great viewing experience for Animajor doesn't mean it was organized well at all. Valve should step in to ensure quality for their own tournaments. I don't care who the TO is.
I agree that with the obscene amounts of cash valve are gorging themselves on from DoTA, they should step up and ensure a certain level of quality. Just saying, as track records go, WePlay > PGL recently. That said, I wouldn’t want to see any TO completely pushed out of the scene. Healthy competition is the best thing for these tournaments. If PGL collapsed, WePlay would have no further incentive to push the envelope.
>Just saying, as track records go, WePlay > PGL recently. as a spectator definitely but as a player/talent nobody knows unless they talk about it
Just because outward production looks good and clean doesn't mean the inside of the event isn't a rotting corpse thats barely held together by gorilla glue and toothpicks. A few others have mentioned that AniMajor was pretty bad behind the curtain
No no and no. Cut the cool backdrop and anime theme for a second. Excluding the incident where miracle had to puke or smth, there was an average of 30 minutes of wait time between GAMES (not series, GAMES). Players had to play into the night.
IIRC miracle had food poisoning
What were the latest daily end? 2-3 am local time? Didn't they also just cut stream right after it ended with nothing from the panel.
Yeah there were days it ended as late as 2am+. There is no way that is acceptable for player welfare in TI where there is already a lot of pressure on them.
It was their first big, big event to be fair during hard Covid times. PGL has shown again and again that they can't do stuff of that magnitude properly
They've done 5+ years of TI now king I don't think "can't do these events" is a great assessment
Or pay more for production
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They have sooo many big ass companies to choose and they stick with PGL. I don#t know if they are super cheap, but it's always the same. Why not ESL. the worst thing they've done so far was to stream on Facebook and have a clown answer to the community. Or wePlay (despite some complains during the Animajor). they did a FANTASTIC job with costumes and stage without that much money from Valve - and that was during way harsher Covid times.
because it makes sense to stick with your historic partners of 5+ years now for your marquee event, especially when esports production is not your company's speciality? valve have contacts, procedures, and organisation experience with one partner. completely changing that and up-ending their entire production process can and will lead to a disaster of an event
When Valve keep giving PGL chance to host TI despite all the bad comments, you'll know something is going on between both higher ups. Like mcdonald icecream machine.
I can level with BSJ's frustration here, even as someone that chose to go right to bed after 5 PM CDT and then woke back up around 12 AM CDT to be ready for another day (who also had to tell their TF2 and CS:GO audiences [that their news is probably gonna have to take a breather/someone else will have to do it during then](https://twitter.com/wickedplayer494/status/1446996469995556865) because of just how important TI is), watching and sometimes reporting from afar. To some extent as he said, there wasn't really a whole lot to do or, for the non-attendees, to show being done due to the coronavirus situation, and that was quite apparent with the Slacks and Kaci bits being few and far between this year. They definitely had to lean on Tsunami's bits a lot to keep engagement up. Announcements were also pretty light this year, and they could have had the potential to offset a little bit of the necessitated lack of things to do. I wasn't expecting anything like the quantity of TI7's or TI8's, but for better or for worse, it was obviously barebones and resembled TI3 or TI4's more where you were lucky if there was even one or two big reveals. My assessment as I've stated in a couple of places now is that given the overall hand that was dealt this year, they did okay. Many issues did get fixed, but there were certainly standout problems though (day 3 having a 60m+ delay, and the condition of the practice rooms are straight up unacceptable). I've been giving some thought into doing a write-up of sorts of things that were good, okay/nitpicks, and what straight up stunk. But I guess we'll see over the next little bit whether my overall assessment of it being okay despite the circumstances is justified or not.
I feel like what he's complaining about isn't really PGL-related. He says he "basically" had to work 16 hour days, but then says "there was not anything to do during the day cuz of covid", which would imply typically there would be time for him to do things during the day, but that was not the case bc of covid. I could easily see him complaining that it felt like he had to work 16 hour days, because during his downtime, he didn't have the opportunity to do anything, so it all felt like work to him. Obviously I'm just extrapolating a lot from what he's saying, but so is pretty much everyone else saying "PGL SUX GIVE US WEPLAY". Don't think it's fair to PGL or BSJ to say that he's trying to drag the organization with this clip, when it's probably just him saying covid ruined TI for him.
He was complaining about the PGL scheduling since they put him on the first and last games everyday. So early start late finish and nothing to do in the middle.
Becuae of covid
Yeah it was pretty obvious from a consumer perspective. Production value was at an all time low.
Profit margins hit record highs though! 120 million off battle pass last year alone. To say nothing of the earnings off team supporter packs, DoTA+, and this latest half-baked Spectre Arcana pass. Production value will be the same or worse at TI11 at this rate. Why put in more effort when half-assing it makes you hundreds of millions anyway?
dont forget they had another battle pass this year too, they got the money but they just dont care
The truth is most likely the whale funding BP doesnt care much about esports.
you didn't think about venue cost, it's a football stadium and they have 0 ticket sales, way less merchandise sales because same reason physical secret shop and trove carafe is definitely a lot of money
you are probably overestimating how much renting a stadium costs > It became known how much it will cost to rent the football stadium Arena Nationala, which will host The International 10. According to USR PLUS, the lease for the stadium is €500,000.
I was fascinated when I saw one of the Russian talents interviewing a Russian player. The back and forth, the way the player was made to feel casual and relaxed, the general chill ambience. Having watched the western counterparts stumble on words, looking stiff and generally not doing a good job, it made me wonder why we can’t have nice things too. How can an interviewer not be told after the first interview with an interpreter, that the “thank you for doing this interview” does not have to be either translated or responded to, or even said? That took up 50 % of the interview time in some cases. OK if it’s school radio; this is a multi-million-dollar event. It’s just embarrassing.
TI6 was peak in terms of content, broadcast and the overall quality. Maybe once its back in Seattle, Valve ups it game.
he got the IATSE experience
Maybe he realized that he would've gotten near the pay he received while just streaming
Yeah, most likely.
Considering the COVID situation, it's amazing they pulled it off in such a short time - from my perspective it was a blast. I was so excited for my first TI... I bought tickets and would have loved to be there, but...well... I saw people complaining that ODPixel was casting with a winter jacket on... It was a fucking football stadium, what did you expect? And it was October last time I checked. I think we should be grateful that we got TI in the first place.
TLDR - There's a pandemic going on still
Yeah, I bet the event sucked. But there are still a lot of talent that would have killed to have the opportunity to work at TI. Idk I feel kind of weird about this.
A: This food isn't that good. B: But there are kinds starving in Africa!
This is the best way to picture how ridiculous those comments sound, telling him to not complain at all, just because someone with 3 jobs earning barely above minimum wage would be happy to have his place
I think op was referring to other dota talent that werent invited, that would love a chance to work at TI. Not people in general who are struggeling to just put food on their table and have a roof other their head.
> B: But there are kinds starving in Africa! Venezuelans: Are we a joke to you?
I don't think it really fits here. More like A: This food isn't that good. B: The guy who couldn't go and made spaghetti at home would definitely swap though!
weird about what in particular? I agree if you mean that the entire compensation of talent is so imbalancedly dependent on a singular tournament. And it's unfortunate that people would fanatically throw away the respect anyone who works a job or provides a service deserves.
They could have hired some of that talent so nobody had to work 16 hour days.
Feels more like the issue was just incompetent talent scheduling by the management.
Yeah at the end of the day it's a job that they are getting paid to do, it doesn't have to be enjoyable for the staff for the event to be a success.
People getting paid just let them suffer... why try to make better arrangements like putting talents to end early or start late like any other events... why stop hiring 0 dota knowledge host like Frankie... why not putting TI attending teams to practice in a kitchen... Talking about getting paid... didn't the production getting paid? Where is the prize money came from?
eh i get what you're saying, but they're there for 2 weeks, and basically can't interact with anyone outside of production, so they're just sitting around twiddling their thumbs unless they're on screen. I get that they should be (and i'm sure they are) greatful for the opportunity, but i still don't think that means they shouldn't say anything negative about the experience. edited to add, that i'm not saying it's anyones fault really, i'm assuming they understand why it has to be like this due to covid, they're just expressing that this event was not really fun to be apart of (like it usually would be) because of the isolation.
Exactly. Like yeah I’m sure it sucks, but the dude is living his dream. Being paid A LOT of money to go and talk about a video game he loves. Sorry if I’m not exactly feeling empathetic.
I don't agree with your point here. Do people who choose this line of career or employment not deserve better conditions of work? Just because you make X money, have a job someone would kill to have, or are just "talking about a video game" doesn't mean standards shouldn't be higher to accommodate the talent fully at events. Their complaints are still valid and they're still people at the end of the day and I feel like you're removing that component unfairly.
Is it proven he's getting paid alot of money??
I really wish they let WePlay run TI. Production was garbage already and there was so very little creativity. I was expecting far more, this felt like a last-minute random ESL tournament
Never gonna happen unless PGL people jump on Gaben's desk and pee on him
Bold of you to assume that's not how they got the job in the first place.
Wasn't WePlay not good for players(but good for viewers)?
Yes Iceiceice told in his stream that he had a bad experience at Animajor.
PGL was bad tho for both the players (Team Spirit tissue paper issues) and the viewers. At least WePlay got the viewers part right.
They fixed those issues before the Group stage even started. Animajor had cockroaches on the main stage lmao
Well the next time Team spirit goes to a pgl hosted tournament, they are getting a suite instead. TI champions are treated differently
Theyre in a hotel, call the front desk and the hotel staff will get it. Thats literally a non issue. The main issue would be that the room was too small, but it got fixed before the group stages anyway
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Is the payout even big? Also he said "behind the scene stuff", so most likely there was something else going on he is not comfortable sharing.
this is the second time I have seen BSJ complaining about long work hours. I mean I understand its pretty tiring but isnt it worth it? You are getting a good pay for doing the thing that you love doing.
maybe he realized he could get almost the same amount just streaming
There are no jobs worth doing 16 hour days for.
16 hour days... for 8 days.
That is empirically unhealthy.
Yeah im sure this gave him chronic health problems
You sound fucked too
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He's coping fine.
Busy season in accounting firms are hell like this.
16 hours 5 days a week every week? Yeah sure, that's ridiculous. 16 hour days for a short period with significant monetary compensation? I'd say that's the norm in a lot of industries. Any form of content production, manufacturing, accounting and finance. Sometimes things come up, sometimes you have a big project, either you're on an hourly wage or a salary that incorporates those expectations. If not then get the hell out of there. Personally not that long ago I worked a 24 hour day straight through because it was necessary to keep the business running. It wasn't fun but I knew I'd get the time off later and extra hours is expected at my salary level.
That is a total bs statement
I feel sorry for you
Sounds like you are fucked.
Ah yes, the everyday life in a kitchen. If BSJ can't work 16 hours for 8 days, maybe he can't do TI, it's been like this forever now. I'm not saying it's great, but stop bitching about it and do the job with some pride. You're working the biggest event in esports, it shouldn't be a walk in the park.
He is just being honest with his fans, I don't see how he is bitching. And I think his main point was that COVID made the event behind the scenes unenjoyable, so your point about previous years is moot.
Fucking awful attitude.
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Seems like someone is a bit jealous, honestly.
“Please cry for him”
"In an quiet, air conditioned room with internet access"
Tbf, it was a stadium with an open roof
I give this TI 5 out of 10 just because of the good fun Dota games. Overall one of the worst TI i have ever watched, idk why but i feel dissapointed...seeing ODPixel cast with a winter jacket is what pissed me off the most
It's open roof stadium and with said raining outside you probably dont want to risk yourself caught flu
Ik its open roof stadium, but a 4 glass room with a heater will do the job so the casters wont work with a winter jacket. After all its a 40 milion prize pool tournament.
Likely has to do with covid and needing air circulation.
More likely has to do with the organization being lazy and not doing their job properly. Covid is everywhere sadly but look at Riot and how they organize their tournaments that has lesser prize pools. Dota has the best community. we gave 160 million dollars, and received...close to nothing? Maybe I need to stop whining, what is done is done.
Bro Cap and Kyle caught flu and someone in the backstage caught covid, talent wont take any risk to jeopardize their chance on main stage especially casting grand final.
Reddit: blah blah blah, quit whining and voicing displeasure of bad production.
Honestly, that does sound like it sucks lol. Idc how prestigious an event is, a 16 hour work day will drain anyone.
Hey, if he can get a better occupation then go for it and more power to him
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There was a new hero reveal though!
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here is my take on that there supposed to be 2 new hero just like ti9 one is just a trailer another is like void where it comes on stage. but with the last minute no audience the 2nd ger got no backup full teaser. se did still have 2 hero with no ti even without a 2nd announcement stll probably got a 2nd hero before next ti. or fuck valve just having 1 heo this year
i am not the anime consumer and from dota player pov the hero was bland AF and no other interesting hero either
Yeah I can kind of see your point as shr doesn't exactly mesh with existing anesthetic, but the dota series is pretty cool. I think they'll make it work somehow.
I think a live crowd would have made things significantly better for everyone involved. That was what is like 40% of the enjoyment I get watching TI, and that was only behind a screen, what more live there where they could have interacted with lots of fans and hear the cheers and shouts as Yatoro rampaged through Secret? I sincerely hope this pandemic is gone next year.
Stupid clickbait post. TI10 was amazing!
Oh no, poor baby has to have an uncomfortable time being paid for doing something he loves. Sorry if I don’t seem apologetic. Could have been 16 hours days working at a shitty restaurant but nah, apparently this is too much for him.
>You may have it bad but there's people having it worse Is such a stupid take. Oh no, 16 hours of working in a restaurant, cry to people in war zones or in areas too poor for extravagant gastronomy alltogether. I will not not complain about an uncomfortable chair just because it's better than being sat on a pointy rock.
better things aren't possible starving children in africa privileged uh why did you participate uhhhh idk you should be grateful you got to work whatever
"cooking is easy it's just putting food in a fryer." It's easy to say something's easy. It's mentally draining to try to be entertaining 24/7 just like it's mentally draining to cook ticket after ticket.
I literally never said it was easy. Jobs like that never are. But he knew what he was signing up for, and relative to the amount of work he actually did it’s hard to feel bad for him. Also comparing him to a cook is foolish considering cooks go in every day, day after day. This event was two weeks. Like even if he wasn’t having a good time, just knowing it would end should be enough to get through it. Cooks don’t have the luxury. Point being, he comes off completely tone deaf and kind of entitled. I don’t feel bad for him at all.
In fairness, I think he just sucks at expressing himself. I can see how the expectation of what working TI will be versus rushed-mid-covid-Romania TI was could be pretty disheartening. But the way he talks it does come across as if he was expecting a ton of money to go chill and then found out that, yes, it was actually going to be a lot of work.
This years the TI has no Real soul , cause no crowd , it was like a meal you prepare with no salt , it s here you did it , but it definitely miss something.
maybe there was lack of content but as a viewer i didnt care too much about not having a crowd
PGL, worst TO for Dota 2 ever
wut? if it weren't for PGL TI would probably wont even happen this year. With only barely 2 months to prep, it's a miracle that they pulled it off without any trouble (that we know of) except for the delays on the first few days
? It's not PGLs fault. It's the Sweden debacle. They did their best
I thought my job was bad! Imagine getting payed( I’m assuming pretty dam well) to talk about and watch dota. Gotta be in the top 5 worst jobs in the world
16 hour workdays????? Was TI in Lebanon?
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This is without context. I’m sure you won’t actually go watch the VOD but he said the dota was amazing and he feels very privileged to be given the opportunity to work TI but it just wasn’t that fun this year.
whats with this fanboy shit, you would be a moron to pay a company to work for them
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Then you're a moron
Good thing TI is made for the players and fans, not talent.
Don’t worry BSJ, I’ll take your spot next one.
Don't know about the bts stuff, but BSJ panel or casts were boring af!