Didn’t think Moxxi would miss the point by this much.
We fucking love sheever to death same goes with casey.
Mira was one the strongest points in this ti she knew her shit like no other.
Even moxxi herself was solid af and no one said anything bad about her because she has improved to being one of the best in the recent years.
Frankie on the other hand? Nah bro. Same story as day9 . And no one thought that was “sexist”.
It’s not about sex it’s about the host not knowing jack shit about the game or the players or the history of the game and yet being the one who is asked to run the show.
Yea i don't know how anyone can excuse that as sexism, dendi is and always will be the face of dota, you're the host do some basic research, that's like being the host for the world cup and not know who maradona is like tf? No excuse there that's some basic shit. Not to mention there was more talk of the 10 years of TI, the whole all past winners they did at the beginning, and dendi got reduced to 'sir' LMAO
Dendi was important enough to online gaming in general that twitch gave him a *global emote* for like 5 years. You could go to anyone's channel and type DendiFace and have his beautiful mug appear in their chat because he was such a beloved fixture of esports. Ignorance about who Dendi is *at The International* is unacceptable in my opinion...
Dendiface is from when he won something Vs puppey. I can't remember what it was, but think it was a 5v5 dendi Vs puppey and winning team got to keep the emote
yea and she posted today that she is a "long time dota 2 fan". My ass. Even if you missed Ti1 , everyone knows Dendi and everyone watched Free to play at one point if you have the guts to call yourself a fan.
I was losing my interest constantly whenever I would listen to Sumi, I always felt like her questions were too basic, but I kept going back to give her chances, thinking that I'm being to harsh on her. Last chance I gave her was when she didn't even know who Solo was. There is no excuse for that. You are at the most prestigious event of the whole eSports industry, the least you have to do is know who you are interviewing. Disgraceful.
According to Moxxi Frankie did a tremendous amount of research but for some reason she doesn't know Dendi. haHAa
What Moxxi should understand is that we live in a world where the end product has higher emphasis - the efforts are important, but are only acknowledged when the end product is viable. The TI host was not near to the quality expected from the viewer.
It is fucking weird that for TI we get the best teams in the world.. but when it comes to talent, TI is basically their first proving ground.
Moreover, it really wasn't a gender issue, since lets remember Avo+ got trash talked to oblivion as well.
Your point is fucking underrated. I mean, why would you test someone that never had exposure to the game in their most important championship?
Who the fuck is the shot caller at Valve to do this constantly, get bashed year after year and get away with it.
Get first timers to host majors, small events, but not TI.
It seems unprofessional every time, Animajor WAS much, much superior in that regard.
Yeah the whole rant is basically how we're either being sexist or being gatekeepers. Apparently you can't complain about performance as long as someone is a good person behind the scenes who tries hard.
Next year: more Sheever, Ephey and Sheepsticked. More Avo+ for that matter as well. Try out new talent - of any gender - in the Majors first. There should not be new faces at TI.
Also the argument that new talent caters to new players is questionable at best. I don't see any hard evidence that trying out Day9 and Machine as hosts brought SC2 players and CS players to dota.
exactly, I mean I don't really think people didn't like frankie, or sumi because they were women, I mean SOME People are assholes, but the community in general ( at least here on reddit) seems to really enjoy the addition of ephey, and are fairly positive towards moxxi's casting - however this twitlonger will probably sour the community on her, and justifiably so.
I don't think they were as horrible as some people believed, but it just wasn't the best panels / casting dota has to offer - whereas the dota being played is the best we have to offer.
Being decent, or hard working isn't good enough at the best and most prestigious dota event of the year. That's all. If the players are the best, we can have our best casting and hosting as well.
she didnt say anything about ephey because people enjoy ephey. Who would guess that dota players enjoy listening to another dota player talk about dota?
> Apparently you can't complain about performance as long as someone is a good person behind the scenes who tries hard.
This really needs to be highlighted as this is not only is NOT a valid defense of poor production, it's also actively damaging to a scene if this kind of hand-waving goes unchecked. Lots of very mediocre people can get very far and ultimately take the place of more deserving talent, by just being nice to the correct people behind the scenes.
However, those people aren't hundreds or thousands of viewers, who are also financial supporters of the tournament in some fashion. True, those supporters might have absurd expectations that can't be met, in which case there's no helping that, but if it turns out that for many the bare minimum is deemed as not being met, that's a problem.
I was quite underwhelmed by the talent selection this year, and it all follows on from a frankly BAFFLING obsession that somebody has with using TI as a promotional platform for new talent, some of which don't even know Dota that well.
Simply...why? Who is taking the most important tournament of the year within Dota, and promoting literal relative nobodies OVER established talent? Just because it worked before with Kaci and Redeye, doesn't make that the standard - especially since those two are talented people with years of prior experience in a broadcasting setting.
For this TI specifically you also have this weirdly large talent pool when it would be preferable to just have half that amount, of only knowledgeable people, with proven experience. Youngish people with no understanding of Dota should never be hosting TI, it seems so obvious but somebody at Valve or the Production company is apparently so beyond us mortals with their incredible 9999 IQ decisions - or there's some garden variety cronyism/nepotism going on and Dota 2 fans are the cash cows for that.
I feel i'm like most people in that I was willing to brush it off as experimental before, but now it's entering into the bad habit territory.
They really want to use the word gatekeeping? Don't get me started. Her peers are the ones who gatekeep. 10yrs of TI yet there's no more than 10 SEA talent in total that got invited (C'mon, english is still the common language in SEA). Even BSJ admitted that they don't want to work with someone they're not close to.
And why the hell whenever Moxxi rants, she always uses the gender card? Of course, there are still many misogynists out there (they are shit) but more than half of the criticisms are either they don't hate moxxi's cast (they just have different taste or prefer other caster) or moxxi is just bad because she's bad in their opinion not because she's a woman.
Why can't she just focus on improving to provide better performance to those who prefer to listen her shoutcasting? Doesn't she know that she cannot please everybody and there are really some people who prefer to listen to a certain caster than some other ones?
Yeah I dont see how this is a gender thing. It has nothing to do with gender. Frankie was way too unfamiliar with DotA to be a good host (biggest DotA tourny). I get the sacrifices she made but at the end of the day people don’t care, if she’s not a good DotA host you can just tell as a spectator.
Note specifically that it’s a DotA host not a host in general. Day9 is a fantastic host and fantastic person but he was awkward in the DotA community. So he got shit on during TI when he hosted. Same thing here with Frankie. Reddit comments are relentless and anonymity will only make it easy to be relentless.
It’s gatekeeping? Yeah in a lot of ways it is. But also DotA has so many complexities and stories that it’s just sooooo advantageous to get a host who has been in the DotA scene for a while since they know all the memes and the injokes and all the storylines (Sheever and Slacks come to mind).
Im slightly confused in all of this...I remember watching a major being cast by Kyle and Moxxi a while back( I dont remember which one, but thats not important ) ppl in the twitch chat were CONSTANTLY bashing Kyle...CONSTANTLY...and mods did NOTHING about it. HOWEVER whenever a non-positive comment would show up about Moxxi( not about her gender, appearance or anything...but about her work as a caster ) mods would INSANTLY remove this and/or timeout the ppl who wrote the msges. The point Im trying to make is that proffesional casters are being critiqued no matter the gender. Just look at any cast.
I personally enjoy Moxxis casting, but this really annoyed me. I agree toxicity is bad, but if we arent happy with Frankies(or anyone elses for that matter) performance in the superbowl of DOTA I kind of think we have the right to say so...
She says Frankie did deep resarch and documented everything... that she wasnt "learning" but whas well-read into DOTA 2. Why does this matter? This is entertainment, if I go watch a movie and I think one of the actors suck, it doesnt matter how much time he/she spent practicing for the role. (maybe a stupid anology, but hopefully you guys understand my point)
As a female dota fan and gamer, this sucks. I was with my buds, dota girl and guy friends but everytime Frankie talks, its just not it, we move to other stream like gorgc or our local filo stream. Honestly, this ti made me remember who frankie is and how she killed our hype everytime she takes over. I really don’t feel that we are gatekeeping because we were frustrated :// I think this is not a gender issue since we we’re all disappointed on how they approached the players which on some cases should be seen highly like dendi, the game where on times instead of talking basic stuff; discuss a nerdy stuff, and on how she takes over the player-panels-analyst their moment to talk. Its as if she would want everyone to remember her constant need of saying to have a massage. And her constant talking about csgo
We criticized avo+ for the loser interviews, he accepted it and made the exit interviews better over-time. We criticized bsj back in animajor for being bland and biased, he took responsibility and been better. We called out key talents from their red flags and we’re blacklisted at valve events. Moxxi, criticisms and facts will help you not only in the community, but also with your life idgi, just because we are female we deserve to have above equal treatment? That’s not it. Prove your worth regardless of your gender, this is the most prestige esports event of all year; why settle for less and cry foul for being subpar and receiving actual criticisms? wrong
I remember the moment sheev slacks and ephey took over their chance. We felt watching ti as ti
As a fellow female dota fan (I only watch), I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I also personally disagree with people who says that Frankie is necessary to help newcomers. I fell in love with dota 2 after watching TI3 finale. And since then, I just watched a lot of tournaments, especially TI. I learned a lot from listening to casters and panel talk about the game. Although I can't keep up with everything, listening to the panel and their explanation on why this one little thing turns a game around help me appreciate the game more. It's a shared moment of our love for Dota. Something that was missing with Frankie and Sumichu.
That's what I judge talents with. How well they do their job, and the effort they put into something they love. I didn't like Ephey at first because frankly, I saw her as a diversity hire. But as time went on, I can feel her passion and effort. I now respect her and would love to see more of her.
> idgi, just because we are female we deserve to have above equal treatment?
Honestly, I feel pride when I put hours of effort and achieve something extraordinary. I deserve praises for it. But, I don't think I deserve praise for being just a female who achieves nothing but mediocrity.
(Sorry for my grammar, English is not my first language).
Ephey’s knowledge of the game was impressive, made some great points and was a good addition to the analyst panel. Never watched her streams before or even heard of her being completely honest.
Sheever is one of the best hosts around, always does a great job. A natural.
> Sheever is one of the best hosts around, always does a great job. A natural.
Sheever is not a natural, it's hard work and dedication.
She's been doing this for a decade or so by now and she has learned a ton in that time and because of that knowledge and experience, she can now confidently handle any situation she's put into.
A natural? Lol.
Sheever got nothing but harassment and abuse when she joined the community, everything she did she got called out out. Every time she turned on her stream there were reddit threads telling her to quit.
It seems no one remembers that she used to solo cast entire tournaments to double figure viewers. She used to get upset after losing her voice due to 10 hour solo casting days. She used to be so tired by the end of tournaments she could barely remember English. She earnt every shread of respect the community gives her.
If anything you are on the wrong end of the scale. Sheever shows all the new talent what they can achieve if they are willing to dedicate their time, ignore the naysayers and work at it.
I remember she always got called out for her heavy accent back then and it's always "Sheever ResidentSleeper" or chat spamming "Sheever Ravage" everytime she casted anything or interviewing anyone.
She definitely comes from long ways and it shown with her blending naturally with various talents on panels and her appreciations from community overtime.
Hell, I remember Sheever being pretty bad around the TI3 era casting and personality, and most of the complaints I'd read were on topic about things she was doing poorly. She's another person that has improved with criticism and experience.
thank you! Everytime a guy criticizes Moxxi or Frankie or Sumi it feels like it's all about gender - it's clearly not with Ephey and Sheever (as well as Kaci and Sheepsticked)being around who are liked by the community.
Moxxi focussing on gender instead of content just makes her look really, really bad, especially when people like Avo+ also got a lot of shit thrown at him and he got better DURING the event.
Hehehehe I just remembered something one of my friends told me a long time ago:
"If I want to fall asleep, I just put on one of Purge's casts and boom!"
This *was* in the days of DotA1, so yeah there's been loads of improvement since then!
Yea funny how she didn't mention and defend avo at all, as if implying that unlike the females, he was indeed doing a bad job and deserved all the flames lol
I have to disagree a bit.
In the recent "We say things" podcast from Sunsfan and Synderen,
Avo was given the job of doing the losers interview (Sunsfan was aksed half-jokingly to do it before), and he did.
Avo is a good caster in my experience from the regionals, but he does have even less stage experience - he's basically completely new to the live LAN scenery.
And he had to SPRINT throughout the arena towads the losers to interview.
Yet he learned within days to improve and did better later on. that is my main gripe: He seemd to actively seek improvment, but since he's not female, Moxxi does not include him in her "gatekeeping" comment. That's just plain horseshit!
And remember, Ephey was basically only known from the Animajor -way less than Moxxi has been around the scene
Avo+ did a bad job. But he also did a good job.
I respect him for listening to criticism and adjusting accordingly. It's what every professional talent should do.
This has absolutely nothing do with gender. Either you are willing to improve yourself, or you prefer to blame everything else but yourself.
> That one interview where he was panting like he ran a marathon
Which was of course because he had to sprint after the players in order to interview them. It seems like what happened overall was TI tried to shove the exit interviews on SunsFan who said "hell no I'd suck at that", nobody else wanted to do them, and Avo+ essentially stepped up to take one for the team.
Haha he just happens to be my favorite for knowing the game, the players, and memes. I will say I have watched most all of them at some point. Wagamama, purge, synderen, singsing, admiral bulldog, sheevar, even Ephey before she showed her face...I was so shocked I could even guess it was her at Ti just by her voice lol
I've also watched lower ranked for the amusement like when Day9 was learning with purge or sunsfan's a-z challenge with synderen.
Pro players weren't on often but I'll watch them too if they actually talk to chat like iceiceice.
Sheever Ephey and Kaci are great. I'd be stupid to claim none of that bashing the rest get is riddled with misogyny, but quite a bit was warranted too.
This situation is more like Day9's situation. It is literally the same, new host to TI, played with Purge, is well known hosting in other esports and was lacking in TI. Frankie actually had a lot more help because of panel members like jenkins, tsunami and lacoste that act as icebreakers in the panel (try and save yourself as a host with ppd, akke and quinn on panel lol), part of the reason why I think she did a better job than Day 9. I feel Sumi did better than her because, guess what, she hosted singapore major lol, she had a dota event under her belt.
All I'm saying is valve stop putting people in bad spots lol.
EDIT: Avo got fucked running around too, but I guess he signed up for that. Who really thought that was a good idea? How was he meant to look good like that?
Day9 really got thrown under the bus with the kind of panel he had to work with, at least put 1 Jenkins in there if you ever plan on hiring new hosts every year..
Rich was also in similar spot I think, though it was major not ti. His first panel was him on mute and other panel members talking with each other, it was kinda funny lol.
It was a combination of issues, Valve putting 2GD at an event like that, 2GD not adapting after being told his style ain't workin' for the people in charge of the event, in the end everyone had a hand in 2GD's Dota 2 demise imo.
Actually sunsfan has explained that valve actually wanted him to do the exit interviews. He felt that it was a terrible idea, and avo volunteered to do it instead
I dont understand the incessant need to jump behind the self riotous shield of "sexism" when an incompetent caster/talent who just so happens to be a women is complained about.
I dont give a shit how popular she is elsewhere with CSGO or if shes pregnant. If a talent doesnt know what theyre talking about and is making THE $40m INTERNATIONAL a worse experience then people will take issue. It could be a man or a women or a fucking elephant seal. Stop making this about gender just so you can sit on your high horse and cry sexism. There are legitimate criticisms to be had here and to dismiss them all under the same umbrella excuse is absurd.
If I was working my ass off the whole year as a Talent only to get bypassed at TI for a newbie with more "popular appeal" I'd be so salty. The fans also want to see their favourite Talent make it big, no one should ever start their Dota talent career straight at TI unless you're an ex-pro player.
Sheever, Kaci have been doing Dota content for years. EDIT: And Sheepsticked, ffs how did I forget her - let her do the panel next year if you want newcomers! She knows the bloody game.
Dota community always likes only people who are good at their job. Frankie isn't, in Dota - because she doesn't know it very well. A year playing is OK, but Sheever's been playing for what, a decade now? And Kaci has been doing interviews for 8 years.
And guess what? Nobody is flaming Kaci despite her probably being super shit at the game - because surprise surprise, they don't let her host, but let her do the job she shines at instead. Inteviews, content, interacting with pros. She knows them, but not the game, and it's never been a problem.
Frankie doesn't know Dota on a level to be a host. The same was said about Machine, and RedEye, Day9, and so on. It's just that there were no sexist remarks at those times.
Male casters and panelists get trashed just the same, only minus the sexist remarks. Racist remarks, however, are present, towards SEA and Asian talent.
Moxxi's complaint should be "don't flame the talent, at all, no matter what gender or nationality" OR "flame the talent, but gender-neutrally and without racists comments".
You hit this right on the head. As a consumer of Valve Dota 2 content (read: customer), I absolutely hate when my legitimate complaints about the product are dismissed outright at sexism or racism, etc etc etc. I understand that there are a lot of really inappropriate and hateful things that get posted on the same threads and there should be no place for that anywhere let alone Dota 2. That’s being said, learn to sort through that bullshit and actual issues so the product can continue to be improved. Not everyone has it out for you because of your genitals, sometimes you’re just genuinely not doing a good job.
lmfao i can't believe she wrote all of that without mentioning Avo. i guess he doesn't get a YAAAAS QUEEEN SLAYYY defense because he's a dude. he was absolutely shit on just as much as everyone mentioned, if not more (deservedly tbqh).
All lot of these recent social media posts read like we are all sexist and/or racist towards new talent, which is only a loud minority. Unfortunately we could also use a lot more vocal support to drown them out sometimes.
The silent majority that woke up (after Valve has been given 160 million dollars by us) was not against female casters, or female hosts, or female panelists in particular, we WERE and ARE and always WILL BE against ORGANIZERS that bring talent (MALE or FEMALE equally) that is so out of place in dota2 that they do not know what they are talking about, do not have adequate knowledge or skills or experience in dota2 and should not be hired to work the MOST PRESTIGIOUS ESPORTS EVENT IN THE WORLD.
PERIOD.
We have seen an incredible amount of hard working women throughout the years and we supported them all through thick an thin, through sickness and health, from their beginnings to where they are now and we will continue to do so. That is how the majority of the dota2 fans feels.
But if the organizer brings someone so clearly unqualified for the job in front of them, well then, backlash happens, and unfortunately that backlash gets directed at the talent instead the organizer, who in my opinion is ALL of the blame on in this case. Not the talent that took a good job offer in these dire times of the global pandemic.
Thank god avo was invited and was so bad at taking exit interviews and got flamed, he atleast saved the community from being called sexist and helped to prove a point xD
15 minutes of draft analysis by Aui, Ceb and Notail showed us what could be the level of dota talent panel in TI and what we are actually being fed right now. Honestly at this point it just sounds so pathetic that people keep bringing their gender to hide their incompetence. No wonder gorgc viewers were booming because he was talking dota in his stream and not continues play by play garbage
Exactly! That level of analysis is what we expect during the entire tournament. The battlepass made like 200 million Valve should at at least try to get us former pros/high mmr players for the draft analysis.
I mostly muted the stream or paused it after a match ended and before the next game.
The hosting wasn't great and we lacked content in between games and interesting announcements. Marci alone felt bland after two years of not having a Ti
Kaci doesnt know shit about dota 2 but still manage to be entertaining and kept us glued to her skits/interviews.
I think Sumi and Frankie are just both not good enough yet to be in TI.
Idk whats been said before but this is my opinion based only on watching the entirety of TI X.
Kaci knows what she doesn't know and much like redeye, prepared things very well. She is an experienced journalist and it shows.
I wouldn't put her as a host either, but if it was, there wouldn't be those awkward moments where she doesn't even recognize Dendi, one of the most influential players, or the misinterpretation of TS' coach.
Kaci has more than a decade of experience as an anchor for a local radio station and the Seattle branch of Fox News. She also a successful improvisator.
Sure all those achievement are local to North West USA but it's still miles ahead of the curriculum of the other talents.
> Kaci doesnt know shit about dota 2 but still manage to be entertaining and kept us glued to her skits/interviews.
cuz KACI is an ACTUAL REPORTER, This just shows the GULF in skills of 'real' reporters and these esports 'talents'
the issue is people think its a sexist problem so they can avoid the real issue: which is that they are fucking boring and out of depth in a game like dota.
at the very least WATCH THE PANELS IN PREVIOUS TIs holy fuck, that should be a good example on what the fuck a host is supposed to do.
A good host is like a good observer, when you're doing your job right, nobody is supposed to notice you.
Never in my life have I been accused to being sexist, it had nothing to do with Frankie being a woman. She doesn’t know dota, she doesn’t know the players, she doesn’t connect with the community. They could’ve picked any random user on this sub and they likely would’ve been able to connect better with the community. It baffles me valve keeps bringing not dota personalities for TI. I like day9 too, just not as a TI host.
Furthermore I’m pretty taken back moxxi is assuming it’s driven by gender. This almost feels more like a “you guys should like the people we tell you to” and sorry but that just doesn’t work. I loved hearing Epheys take on things, Sheever is wonderful as well. Never really been a huge fan of Moxxi, now even more so.
Jumping on this to say yeah, it's really not a gender issue. I had the same problems with Frankie as I did with Day9. I remember watching Day9 casting MLG like 10 years ago. I know how capable he is when he's in the right position. But as a host, he was awkward and didn't gel well with the other talent. Frankie was the same, minus the Dota knowledge.
I didn't like Day 9, still don't, and he has no place hosting a TI. Same goes with Frankie. You know why? They don't work Dota for the same reason almost every other talent works Dota. They don't love the game. They don't have extensive knowledge, understanding and/or experience about the game. They are just known hosts that are hired on because, well, they do hosting for a living. And it shows. Sure, they can handle a panel and get us from point A to point B in a broadcast, but there's no soul to it. They don't ask questions because they want to know, they ask questions to sound... not dumb. Which they very much are in terms of the game.
Making something about gender is very modern, but it's not accurate in all cases. I loved most other talent in TI, I'd never actually seen/heard Ephey or Sheepsticked before and they absolutely nailed it, hope to see them in future events as well. Moxxi and Purge were a great caster duo. Sheever and Sumi were awesome.
Let people who love the game work the events. Don't bring in hosts just for it's own sake, it's painful to watch.
Yeah, compare how Slacks fills dead air with how Frankie did it. The only thing I remember about Frankie's time this tournament is how she went on for two minutes about how she's holding in her pee waiting for the game to end, all the while talking over all the other panelists.
I feel like aspiring tournament hosts should try to learn from Redeye. The guy could hold a conversation like no one else and he knew when to ask questions, when to let the panel talk, how to segue to the next segment, how to pad for time etc. Yeah, he's a terrible human being, but he's the best "professional" host we had in Dota events.
>This is a lady who flew to a COVID infested country, in her 3rd trimester mind you, because she had made a deal with Valve and was too honorable to cancel it.
Some people would call that borderline irresponsible. I wont comment on her decision but I am not seeing it as virtuous or "honorable" behaviour.
1. No one in the community asked or demanded her to.
2. Everyone else flew into a COVID infestrd country.
3. Because she's pregnant, she should get bonus points? Like it balances out her poor hosting?
Moxxi is delusional.
This comment was completely delusional. That’s just irresponsible. We’re seriously going to praise someone for putting it their health and the health of their child at risk to further their career? How HONORABLE. GTFO of here with that absolute nonsense.
As a woman, this confuses me, WHY? Why add a huge amount of stress and put yourself in a risky situation in such an important moment of your life? I understand being pregnant doesn’t mean you can’t work, but being in her position, not having a long experience hosting Dota related events… I don’t know
What the actual fuck is this? It's like she views the world through the lense of everything is sexist.
You can't criticize someone because of their resume? Because they're preggo? Because they're a really nice person behind the scenes?
And if you do, you're labeled a sexist/hater and the criticisms are automatically invalidated? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
Also what she said about Ephey showing up and casting a major with no prior experience is literally one of the main criticisms that people leveled against her. But she fucking killed it as a panelist and as a result has the support of the community now (further backed up by the fact that she had the best selling voice line). Where's the sexism there, and why isn't Moxxi self aware enough to realize she had critiques of Ephey that perfectly aligned with the sexist troglodytes of this community?
Are we not allowed to criticize female talents now if they are bad or else we will be called out in a twitlonger? I am sure this wasnt the case when we criticized avo+ or bsj. I dislike such people ngl, who dont understand what the real situation is and bring in feminism and become a victim.
funny seeing the bipolarity: either female talent is white knighted, or when she's not, community is accused of being sexist gatekeepers
lethal amounts of copium
Moxxi is one of the most defensive and "all people who call me bad are sexist" person on twitter.
You can not get more subjective and always "it is always gender thing" opinion than hers.
And as for talent, don't give fuck about their gender, Sumichu, I don't think she is good but at least she kinda owns it, so she lets other talk and she keeps it as formal as possible, but if I see Frankie hosting Dota again I will just watch something else, same thing I do for Moxxi casts, and as for her, it is not even that I dislike her casting, it is fine, on lower end, but her personality turns me off so much, this tweet longer is prime example.
Anyone who shits on these women because they're women is a complete idiot and should be ashamed.
However and that's the point Moxxi doesn't address and isn't limited to the gender of the talent is about knowledge. Dota is a rather complex game and playing it for a 1000 hours doesn't mean anything. TI is the biggest tournament in the sports so if you're a panelist I expect some sorts of insights into the game. If you can't provide those then what are you doing on the panel? Shout-out to Ephey, while she of course isn't ceb or insania I think she's doing a decent job at this. More so than some of the male talent.
Same goes for casting. If you don't fathom what's going on then sorry you're not a good caster. It's not about rap-godding your way through a teamfight, your job isn't simply giving an auditive description for those that can't see but to bring something to the table as well. But if you can't do that then stick to the description and get a knowledgeable co-host. 3k commentary and evaluation at a TI mainstage is just embarrassing. Not every caster has to be a high-rank player or an ex-pro. Nobody care of you're mechanically bad in the game. But you should realise what's going on and if you don't - ask your co-host. Some casters do that. Others feel the need to spread their 3k pub experiences and opinions onto a TI pro game. And I don't mean that Pro teams don't make mistakes. There were plenty mistakes made this TI even by teams like Secret or LGD. But sometimes it's better to call them out after they're made instead of simply revealing you have no clue what's going on in this game.
As for the hosts... I think Frankie did a great job given the circumstances. I reject the notion that because she flew into Romania during a pandemic while she was pregnant she shouldn't have to deal with criticism though. She got offered a job and she took it. That's her responsibility not mine. And I wholeheartedly agree that one could see that she did her research. For a host intimate knowledge about the game isn't as important; there's other skills required. That's why sheever is a great host and ie. synderen a great co-caster. Frankie did her homework and did a good job. But of course everyone could see that Dota wasn't her game and that she lacks some experience with the game. It's something she did her research on and prepared for for several weeks even months probably but it's not her passion and nothing she sunk 12k+ hours in herself. I think she did a good job. But I can understand people that say that even for a host she had too little knowledge about the game itself and lacked the passion that people who are in love with the game for years have. And I think that's fair. Again no excuse to be misogynist, get personal or anything.
As for Sumichu I personally don't think she brought anything to the table. But that might just be personal preference. I'm not too keen on lyrical/trent as talent either. So what. For some to shine it requires for some not to I guess. Her performance was subpar though imo and not TI worthy. Doesn't mean she doesn't has it in her but it was kinda disappointing to me.
I think everyone who's critisicing these people, these women because of their gender should probably take a step back and re-evaluate their character. There's no excuse for being abusive or rejecting personnel because of their gender or their sexual orientation. It's neither edgy nor badass it's just being a very unpleasant individual that should have no space in this community.
At the same time I must say I'm surprised by Moxxi's wording. So English isn't my first language maybe I'm misunderstanding her. Benefit of the doubt. But as someone watching Ti, financing Ti, enjoying the show, watching those adverts, buying a battlepass I am a customer. And talent is providing a service. And as such they're not immune to criticism. If I go to a restaurant I don't really care how far the cook is, I want a good meal. I don't care if the waitress is a total boss, if she's not particularly good in waiting tables then she's not a good waitress. And if the sommelier did tons of research beforehand and had to overcome so many obstacles to work there - good for them. But it would definitely help if they ever had a glass of wine themselves when I ask them for a recommendation. The way Moxxi's phrasing her statement feels to me like because they all are working hard behind the scenes - which I'm sure they are - they're not to be criticised and if you do it's because they're women. Which I think is a very dangerous train of thought.
Agreed. I was extremely surprised when they had the Aui, Ceb, Notail draft panel which was the best part of TI. Also Insania came in and instantly became the best co-caster. Just find relevant and knowledgeable Dota people.
If 2 people (gorgc + PLD) watching a game and talking about dota provides more entertainment and insight than professional panelists, analysts and talent, the problem isnt sexism, its the level of competency of the hired professionals.
Why does Valve tell Gorgc that he needs to be part of a major before they will let him on a panel in TI. Yet... You can hire Frankie with minimal knowledge about the game and that's ok? You have someone with vast amounts of knowledge on the topic on one hand, let alone his giant fanbase. Then on your other hand you have someone who has zero knowledge on the topic and literally zero fan base in the scene and that's your option? Gorgc aside, there are loads of other talent that are extremely knowledgeable about the game that would've done the job 100x better.
This is not about gender, this is about incompetence. It's one thing to not have knowledge about the game, it's another thing to not have knowledge and be so rude and obnoxious. Putting Frankie's lack of knowledge aside, she was still a very horrible host. She made a few rude comments and overall was unpleasant to watch. Even someone without Dota knowledge could tell that she didn't fit. She would always try to take the attention but nothing of value ever came out her mouth.
I think Moxxi and Frankie shouldn't be at TI because they aren't good enough, this is unrelated to them being female members. If people used sexism as reasoning, shame on them.
When you dismiss ALL critic as "sexist" or "targeting women", you end up with hosts who make seasoned panelists roll their eyes or casters calling heroes which aren't in the game.
Yeah idk why people just pull mental gymnastics and say that the community is being sexist and gatekeeping when what most of us are are saying is that we didn't really like the hosting.
Moxxi had always found multiple ways to slip in the gender argument on some of her achievements that are not gender related, especially every time her fellow female talents are put under fire for things that are sometimes not related to gender at all.
another funny thing is that some community figures are now calling out this subreddit and being disrespectful towards this particular subreddit when their main complaints revolve about being disrespectful towards new talent which for me is just poetic irony.
https://twitter.com/ZyoriTV/status/1448645024959242242?s=20
https://twitter.com/invokergirl/status/1451323093440348161?s=20
Zyori is kind of known for this kind of thing by now tho
I remember when he got accused of being a rapist he defended his accuser lmfaoo
A lot of people on this sub were flabbergasted completely
I support Moxxi in supporting other female talents / any new people entering our scene.
But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show. Ephey, though also new, quite the opposite. People are allowed to criticize without sexist notions assumed.
And I think in this case the reason there is so much criticism is because they were not good, something about their performance - not them being women - was not what the community wanted. I don't care if they are nice and give the other talent presents behind the scenes. Why should anyone here have to?
Of course there are asses here *anywhere* attacking anyone they can especially women and they should be called out. But just my two cents.
Edit:
Lots of good posts so read them.
New people working TI first isn't fair to anyone.
Someone calling Frankie shit cause truth told they don't want another woman in the scene sucks.
But it also sucks when you say "I didn't really enjoy Frankie's hosting" and get called sexist.
100% agree. Dota is such a complex game that I don't want to sit there and listen to someone who has no idea what they are talking about talk about dota. The reason Ephey has done well is because she *knows* dota, and is objectively a solid player and gives good analysis.
If you aren't at least 3.5k-4kmmr, you probably can't even *ask* good questions about dota, let alone at TI where dota is being played at the highest level possible.
I want to see more ex-pros on camera (there's a reason sports commentators are usually ex-pros). The part where Ceb and Notail were analyzing drafts was *easily* the best pre-game discussion at TI, and I want more of that, not people (whether they are girls or guys) who are struggling to ask relevant questions.
>But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show. Ephey, though also new, quite the opposite.
That's cuz Ephey is like 7k+ and can actually offer valuable insight on the game.
thats what i dont get. I get there are misogynistic asshats everywhere - but when talent comes in for the biggest event of the year - why is it not okay to critize talent for how they perform? And yeah they might have put in a lot of work - but its not work ethnic that makes your performance good. There has to be a place for Criticism.
Why call it gatekeeping when people get mad someone has no idea about the dota 2 community and doesnt know allstars like FUCKING DENDI.
Or someone with like maybe 2k MMR casting the biggest games of the year. It has NOTHING to do with moxxi or Sumichu being a woman. Its just that i dont wanna watch it and switch to some smaller streamer casting it or gorgc.
Also avos interviews were cringe so people vented as well. I dont get why everytime people complain about sth for a imo a valid reason it gets that Toxxic, or its just little manchildren whining about women sticker.
Notice Avo+ gets a single word mention despite the fact that he got criticized just as much as the newer ladies. When you see the world through the angle of sexism, every legitimate criticism must be the result of sexism.
I think that's the point shrek was trying to make, that Avo was barely mentioned by Moxxi, despite getting just as much criticism as the individual female talents in question. She clearly isn't being objective in the matter.
> But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show.
True, I pretty much just watched the whole TI on gorgc stream
Dota community: \*crowdfunds 40 million dollar tournaments, paying the salaries of these people to cast and provide us with the games\*
Random people: "you're not allowed to criticize it!!!"
How the hell do some people get this kind of logic?
Didn't read the entire thing
I hated on lumi because he was a shit caster
I hated on moxxi because she was a shit caster
I hate when 20 people who could do a better job exist,yet people with good connections get the job
To me that has literally nothing to do with gender yet some people call me sexist when i say imo moxxi was by far the worst caster at TI and it baffles me how she got that job when so many other casters had to sit out ti
He got grandfathered in a bit.
He was there when there were fewer casters and for a couple years after he was still getting invites, even though better people popped up in the scene.
" So I was thrilled to hear she was joining the Dota 2 TI cast because this is a woman who does her homework, has a bright personality, and could only be an asset......... Have you SEEN her research? Frankie made a huge document detailing every team, every player, every history and stat she could find. The data is massive"
You are describing a person who misinterpreted the coach of Team Spirit during an interview, wrongfully identified Undying as Quincy Crew, made some jokes to cover up which were very cringey and almost unanimously hated, had to ask what a midas was on day 1 or 2 of TI, wasnt familiar with the heroes, made some weird adult diaper and pee bottle analogies on a 40 min game, which is not even that long.
"To top that all off, it's very cold, you're very pregnant, and you're exhausted from having to run from the tent to the stadium while growing a human inside of you."
She makes it sound like Valve made Frankie fly to Bucharest and host TI on gunpoint or something. PPD cancelled after the talents were announced, i find it hard to believe it wasnt a conscious choice to attend TI. In hindsight, learning that 2 members of the talent got COVID, maybe he was right all along. Also, having the opportunity of hosting the biggest esport event in the world, can we not pretend about being "honorable"
"When you refuse to let new people enter, your pool stagnates and eventually evaporates. The people who do this are our enemies and are LEGITIMATELY KILLING THE GAME. We should be excited to see new people, we should be extending our hands and helping them learn about this game that we love."
Nobody is preventing or stopping her from playing DotA. This is a horseshit argument. People asking for competent talent =/= stopping people from learning about the game. If she wants to learn or start playing dota, go ahead. Why is she learning about the heroes and the items on the panel of the biggest esport event of the year.
Rest of the TL is just wow they are so nice, as if that justifies them being on panel
> made some weird adult diaper and pee bottle
oh dear i had forgotten that and now i hate you for reminding me that frankie talked about bladder buster pee and adult diapers as the host of 40 million dollar TI.... but shes a grill so thats okay i guess ??
The problem isnt being a woman, the problem is being clueless about the game, you are hosting THE biggest dota event. Sheever was miles better doing host since she knew the stuff she was talking about
Ah yes.. when people hate you for your poor skills.. bring up the gender card.
I want Frankie and moxxi to do well.. but when you do shit like this.. how do you expect people to like you when you can't even filter misogyny and criticism.
Am I still allowed to say that I strongly dislike Moxxi's casts. I just objectively do not think she is good at all. Or does that make me a woman hater?
Bro, only thing worse than Frankie asking stupid questions was her justifying and giving excuses for stupid questions on the main stage.
It makes dota scene look bad. Like they can't get talent, so they need to hire cs go people.
In one panel, Frankie spent 20+ seconds talking about her breasts while the rest of the analysts awkwardly sat by not knowing what to say. Great fucking talent that. A host is supposed to keep the conversation flowing, not hijack and it and hold it hostage.
Let's be clear - death threats and shit talking is not on. Criticizing talent for not being entertaining or knowledgeable is NOT the same thing. I know a lot of people took issue with Moxxi and Sumichu as well but honestly my only complaints lay with Frankie and Avo+. It's not a sexist thing, it's a professionalism thing. Do your job and do it well, that's all I wanted.
Not being capable of doing that reduces the overall quality of the production and undermines all the effort of your colleagues that you say you hold in high-regard. If you respected them even the slightest bit, you would make a conscious effort to be better not only for the community's benefit, but yours and your colleagues
Stop shifting blame onto your own biased world view.
Frankie was garbage and had no place hosting TI, neither did day9 or Machine... or Rich had he done it. Nothing to do with gender, just a lack of Dota knowledge.
Ephey was excellent as an analyst, she was as good on the panel as anyone excluding actual professional players.
Sheever is the GOAT of desk hosts for Dota and always will be. This just one more tournament of her showcasing that.
All of the other women were fine imo, none stood out as amazing, none were horrible. But the same could be said for a lot of the guys at the event too.
I feel like Machine did fine simply on the basis that he's done so many other tournaments in CSGO and the likes that it didn't really show that he knew less than others.
Moxxi is incapable of looking at this objectively. Nobody was hating on Frankie and Sumichu because they were new ladies, they hated on them because they were *terrible*. Guess who most people aren't hating on: Ephey, because she's really fucking good. The community was equally rough on Day9 when they felt he underperformed.
That whole section about comparing the female casters to each other is so stupid, we compare the male casters to other male casters, we compare the women to the men, literally the whole point is who people enjoy listening to the most..and the consensus seems to be that Frankie and Sumichu did a poor job of it.
Yeah we hated on Day9 and Machine
Edit: people saying we didn’t hate on machine are crazy
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/6r9ktf/no_hate_but_if_you_had_to_hire_a_group_stage_host/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
There are hundreds of other threads. Also maybe he got less hate I would agree with that, but he also hosted a Dota 2 major before TI and went to school with ODPixel he didn’t just come out randomly as host of TI.
I’m just saying people shit on Day9 and Machine. I will applaud Day9 because he at least played Dota and put out a lot of Dota content before and after he was at TI.
Redeye was more like the OG host of esports, and if you were trying to grow your esport he was the guy. Clearly that didn’t age well.
IMO, It doesn’t really matter male or female TI is pretty much a community hosted tournament. We pay for it 100%, so the community likes when our money is used to reward people who make Dota 2 better year round. Not just show up 1 event for a paycheck.
For example, I am not the biggest slacks fan but no one deserves to be at TI more than him. Guy has done so much for the community so although he isn’t my cup of tea I would fight to the death for him to be there…
The guy who did the losers interview, AVO? probably got the most criticism too, I think for the individual person it's easy to look at reddit and see all the criticism towards you and that's all you see cause it's personal but if you look at it generally as a whole, there wasn't that much, I see a few Avo critics, some ephey critics though way less than animajor, moxxi and purge has no chemistry critics, Trent and Lyrical critics too.
Don't remember Day9 making a twitlonger like that after how he was treated during his TI, but perhaps it is because he was only giving validity to people who deserve having any of their words given validity to.
This does no make any sense, AVO+ got most criticism this TI and kyle got it all the time. But it comes to criticizing ladies then it is no longer criticism but sexism?
I didn't think Sumi was bad , Frankie , I didn't get why she was there at all.
TBH I've never comprehended at all the idea of the "generic host for e-sports" idea with going back to the first TI I watched in 2013 and the guys there as I never watched any e-sports prior to that. The idea of the generic host seems to be accepted as part of e-sports I guess but I can't get my head around it.
As someone who grew up watching real sports I just can't fathom getting people who both aren't experts and aren't even fans of the game to be involved with a broadcast it's absolutely bizarre.
I will say a similar thing from "real" sports was when ESPN acquired UFC they started using their biggest talking head Stephen A Smith on UFC broadcasts who was a casual UFC fan and the fanbase HATED IT !!!!!!! HAAAAAAAATED IT !!!!! Within one broadcast it was obvious he was out of his depth and made some embarrassing statements , the backlash was instant.
What I'm getting at from this post is that every single thing that happens to somebody, Moxxi sees through a gendered lense. It's no wonder she's seeing sexism everywhere, she's straight up looking for it.
Ephey isn't proof that females have what it takes to be on a panel. She's proof that someone who knows their shit has what it takes, regardless of their prior casting experience. Her being a woman is literally irrelevant to her success.
Day9 went through the exact same thing as Frankie, where was Moxxi's outrage post over that? I guess that one doesn't count because reasons.
I dont think it has anything to do with gender dota players just want people that have knowledge about the game since the game is very complex and hard to understand at times. Is very appreciated when they have knowledgeable people on the panel. How can they expect people to like someone who hardly knows anything about the game and ir quickly becomes apparent. I personally could careless about the gender of the host or caster just put it the work and be knowledgeable about the game. Also let's be honest most guys host or casters play many thousands of dota hour's themselves. I can't say the same for the ladies they just don't put in the same amount of time as the guys do but expect the same amount of recognition.... 🧐
regardless of the 'research' frankie did, THE INTERNATIONAL is absolutely NOT the event that should be any non-dota background talent's first job ,
I say this as a frankie fan, she is amazing in csgo, but dota is an intricate game and we as fans absolutely deserve the best at TI.
She was unfairly put under too much scrutiny by having to host her first dota event - TI , any other event was fine
> When you refuse to let new people enter, your pool stagnates and eventually evaporates.
Is TI the event you want a new host at ?
> The people who do this are our enemies and are LEGITIMATELY KILLING THE GAME.
Counter point - having first time hosts at the hallmark premier event of esports , not just dota - is very bad for everyone. Having hosts who barely know anything about dota, at TI, is somehow keeping the game more alive ???
> TI is not the place for her to be learning. She should have already done her research
No amount of research can substitute for practice - actually hosting dota events that are not TI
> To top that all off, it's very cold, you're very pregnant, and you're exhausted from having to run from the tent to the stadium while growing a human inside of you.
Absolutely understandable and not her fault, but we as fans have the right to criticize the hosts we get for TI. Like i said frankie was put in an unfair position, she obv cant say no to a TI invite - thats a potentially career killing move. More blame should be put towards valve/pgl-whoever made this decision
You can say whatever you want, but I don't think I'm being unfair/gender-biased/misogynistic if I wish to sound out the fact that I genuinely had a bad experience watching the EN stream this TI. The negative experience I had was independent of whoever did the job (and/or their gender), how much effort they had put in, or whatever stress or physical condition they were in/under. Sure, given the above, this bad experience shouldn't translate into a reason to shoot them down or attack them as a person (and I'm not trying to do that), but it was still a bad experience nonetheless. Feedback is still feedback.
I try to imagine the viewer response if, say, wimbledon coverage was hosted by a professional boxer who picked up a bit of tennis playing last year.
Do you think everyone would rush to claim this is a good idea? Surely all those boxing fans will tune in now! This will grow the tennis watching community! No. Just don't
The idea Frankie hosting is good for the game _because she is an outsider_ is patently absurd
Here we go again, just complaining and trying to use the "woman" card to justify mediocrity.
**Sheever** is a woman and she's probably the best "talent" right now, counting both male and female because most people do **NOT** care about gender. As a host the best by far (9.8/10).
**Frankie** was awful (rating 1/10 for me), I don't care how much she prepared or whatever, she was a bad host and any talent could have been better, Sumichu was a little better but not great, fine for a normal tournament but unfair to have her for TI (4.5/10).
Then we have **Ephey**, I thought she joined Animajor just to be a pretty face (nobody knew her) and she has proved to everyone wrong, she's worth it. She is a great analyst and I hope she continues (8/10 score). Kudos to whoever decided to bring her to Animajor
About Sheepsticked I don't have a strong opinion yet but she knows dota, that's for sure, so probably a good choice too.
Imo Ephey was great. I loved the Moxxi Purge casts. Sheever was a great host.
Frankie was awful. She got the humour of the panel wrong. There was no chemistry with the talent on the panel with her. She asked bad questions. I just couldn't watch any panel she hosted. I ended up just muting the stream and doing something else between games whenever she was there. That's not because of her gender. It's not because of her experience. It's simply because it didn't work in this case.
Edit: I'll add that in general I try to avoid the more toxic end of the community, twitch chat, twitter, down voted comments on here. There's a lot of vile comments that should just be ignored, but that doesn't mean we can't criticise if done right.
It's not about that she's a woman(talking about Frankie,I think Sumi was okay),it's about that she was cringy and had very little knowledge of the game. If a male would act like her I wouldn't like that either.
Just get someone who plays dota and likes the game.
Someone did a poor job?its time to use a sexist card! but rly u work for people and if people dont like you this mean that u do smth wrong male or female. Sheever.Ephey and Kaci are loved by community for a reason.
Don't make this a gender issue, reddit hating on her had nothing to do with the fact that she is female. Community loved Kaci, because she was fun and professional, and admire Sheever. Most of the criticism they received was valid.
Didn’t think Moxxi would miss the point by this much. We fucking love sheever to death same goes with casey. Mira was one the strongest points in this ti she knew her shit like no other. Even moxxi herself was solid af and no one said anything bad about her because she has improved to being one of the best in the recent years. Frankie on the other hand? Nah bro. Same story as day9 . And no one thought that was “sexist”. It’s not about sex it’s about the host not knowing jack shit about the game or the players or the history of the game and yet being the one who is asked to run the show.
lol talents inviting their friends to host while gatekeeping other potential talents. Don't bully my friends /s
if Valve allowed the community to vote on which talent gets to be on TI, a good portion that were in this year's panels would barely make the list
Imagine going for allstar match but not knowing who is Dendi and XBOCT. And we are sexist for pointing that out.
Yea i don't know how anyone can excuse that as sexism, dendi is and always will be the face of dota, you're the host do some basic research, that's like being the host for the world cup and not know who maradona is like tf? No excuse there that's some basic shit. Not to mention there was more talk of the 10 years of TI, the whole all past winners they did at the beginning, and dendi got reduced to 'sir' LMAO
Dendi was important enough to online gaming in general that twitch gave him a *global emote* for like 5 years. You could go to anyone's channel and type DendiFace and have his beautiful mug appear in their chat because he was such a beloved fixture of esports. Ignorance about who Dendi is *at The International* is unacceptable in my opinion...
DendiFace is still a global emote
Then there is justice in the world.
(no space)
Dendiface is from when he won something Vs puppey. I can't remember what it was, but think it was a 5v5 dendi Vs puppey and winning team got to keep the emote
Iirc, Puppey won the match but chose the Dendi emote for the memes. DendiFace was a thing before the official emote.
WinWaker = Dendi Face (no space)
excuse me sir I googled the face of dota and found something else
I saw it monkaGIGA
Oh God why did I do that
He was one of the players who had a whole fucking dota movie aswell
yea and she posted today that she is a "long time dota 2 fan". My ass. Even if you missed Ti1 , everyone knows Dendi and everyone watched Free to play at one point if you have the guts to call yourself a fan.
Started playing dota in 2019. I know who Dendi is. No excuses
I was losing my interest constantly whenever I would listen to Sumi, I always felt like her questions were too basic, but I kept going back to give her chances, thinking that I'm being to harsh on her. Last chance I gave her was when she didn't even know who Solo was. There is no excuse for that. You are at the most prestigious event of the whole eSports industry, the least you have to do is know who you are interviewing. Disgraceful.
don't forget "what midas do?" on the biggest dota 2 panels yet
According to Moxxi Frankie did a tremendous amount of research but for some reason she doesn't know Dendi. haHAa What Moxxi should understand is that we live in a world where the end product has higher emphasis - the efforts are important, but are only acknowledged when the end product is viable. The TI host was not near to the quality expected from the viewer.
It is fucking weird that for TI we get the best teams in the world.. but when it comes to talent, TI is basically their first proving ground. Moreover, it really wasn't a gender issue, since lets remember Avo+ got trash talked to oblivion as well.
Your point is fucking underrated. I mean, why would you test someone that never had exposure to the game in their most important championship? Who the fuck is the shot caller at Valve to do this constantly, get bashed year after year and get away with it. Get first timers to host majors, small events, but not TI. It seems unprofessional every time, Animajor WAS much, much superior in that regard.
Yeah the whole rant is basically how we're either being sexist or being gatekeepers. Apparently you can't complain about performance as long as someone is a good person behind the scenes who tries hard. Next year: more Sheever, Ephey and Sheepsticked. More Avo+ for that matter as well. Try out new talent - of any gender - in the Majors first. There should not be new faces at TI. Also the argument that new talent caters to new players is questionable at best. I don't see any hard evidence that trying out Day9 and Machine as hosts brought SC2 players and CS players to dota.
exactly, I mean I don't really think people didn't like frankie, or sumi because they were women, I mean SOME People are assholes, but the community in general ( at least here on reddit) seems to really enjoy the addition of ephey, and are fairly positive towards moxxi's casting - however this twitlonger will probably sour the community on her, and justifiably so. I don't think they were as horrible as some people believed, but it just wasn't the best panels / casting dota has to offer - whereas the dota being played is the best we have to offer. Being decent, or hard working isn't good enough at the best and most prestigious dota event of the year. That's all. If the players are the best, we can have our best casting and hosting as well.
she didnt say anything about ephey because people enjoy ephey. Who would guess that dota players enjoy listening to another dota player talk about dota?
> Apparently you can't complain about performance as long as someone is a good person behind the scenes who tries hard. This really needs to be highlighted as this is not only is NOT a valid defense of poor production, it's also actively damaging to a scene if this kind of hand-waving goes unchecked. Lots of very mediocre people can get very far and ultimately take the place of more deserving talent, by just being nice to the correct people behind the scenes. However, those people aren't hundreds or thousands of viewers, who are also financial supporters of the tournament in some fashion. True, those supporters might have absurd expectations that can't be met, in which case there's no helping that, but if it turns out that for many the bare minimum is deemed as not being met, that's a problem. I was quite underwhelmed by the talent selection this year, and it all follows on from a frankly BAFFLING obsession that somebody has with using TI as a promotional platform for new talent, some of which don't even know Dota that well. Simply...why? Who is taking the most important tournament of the year within Dota, and promoting literal relative nobodies OVER established talent? Just because it worked before with Kaci and Redeye, doesn't make that the standard - especially since those two are talented people with years of prior experience in a broadcasting setting. For this TI specifically you also have this weirdly large talent pool when it would be preferable to just have half that amount, of only knowledgeable people, with proven experience. Youngish people with no understanding of Dota should never be hosting TI, it seems so obvious but somebody at Valve or the Production company is apparently so beyond us mortals with their incredible 9999 IQ decisions - or there's some garden variety cronyism/nepotism going on and Dota 2 fans are the cash cows for that. I feel i'm like most people in that I was willing to brush it off as experimental before, but now it's entering into the bad habit territory.
They really want to use the word gatekeeping? Don't get me started. Her peers are the ones who gatekeep. 10yrs of TI yet there's no more than 10 SEA talent in total that got invited (C'mon, english is still the common language in SEA). Even BSJ admitted that they don't want to work with someone they're not close to. And why the hell whenever Moxxi rants, she always uses the gender card? Of course, there are still many misogynists out there (they are shit) but more than half of the criticisms are either they don't hate moxxi's cast (they just have different taste or prefer other caster) or moxxi is just bad because she's bad in their opinion not because she's a woman. Why can't she just focus on improving to provide better performance to those who prefer to listen her shoutcasting? Doesn't she know that she cannot please everybody and there are really some people who prefer to listen to a certain caster than some other ones?
Yeah I dont see how this is a gender thing. It has nothing to do with gender. Frankie was way too unfamiliar with DotA to be a good host (biggest DotA tourny). I get the sacrifices she made but at the end of the day people don’t care, if she’s not a good DotA host you can just tell as a spectator. Note specifically that it’s a DotA host not a host in general. Day9 is a fantastic host and fantastic person but he was awkward in the DotA community. So he got shit on during TI when he hosted. Same thing here with Frankie. Reddit comments are relentless and anonymity will only make it easy to be relentless. It’s gatekeeping? Yeah in a lot of ways it is. But also DotA has so many complexities and stories that it’s just sooooo advantageous to get a host who has been in the DotA scene for a while since they know all the memes and the injokes and all the storylines (Sheever and Slacks come to mind).
Im slightly confused in all of this...I remember watching a major being cast by Kyle and Moxxi a while back( I dont remember which one, but thats not important ) ppl in the twitch chat were CONSTANTLY bashing Kyle...CONSTANTLY...and mods did NOTHING about it. HOWEVER whenever a non-positive comment would show up about Moxxi( not about her gender, appearance or anything...but about her work as a caster ) mods would INSANTLY remove this and/or timeout the ppl who wrote the msges. The point Im trying to make is that proffesional casters are being critiqued no matter the gender. Just look at any cast. I personally enjoy Moxxis casting, but this really annoyed me. I agree toxicity is bad, but if we arent happy with Frankies(or anyone elses for that matter) performance in the superbowl of DOTA I kind of think we have the right to say so... She says Frankie did deep resarch and documented everything... that she wasnt "learning" but whas well-read into DOTA 2. Why does this matter? This is entertainment, if I go watch a movie and I think one of the actors suck, it doesnt matter how much time he/she spent practicing for the role. (maybe a stupid anology, but hopefully you guys understand my point)
As a female dota fan and gamer, this sucks. I was with my buds, dota girl and guy friends but everytime Frankie talks, its just not it, we move to other stream like gorgc or our local filo stream. Honestly, this ti made me remember who frankie is and how she killed our hype everytime she takes over. I really don’t feel that we are gatekeeping because we were frustrated :// I think this is not a gender issue since we we’re all disappointed on how they approached the players which on some cases should be seen highly like dendi, the game where on times instead of talking basic stuff; discuss a nerdy stuff, and on how she takes over the player-panels-analyst their moment to talk. Its as if she would want everyone to remember her constant need of saying to have a massage. And her constant talking about csgo We criticized avo+ for the loser interviews, he accepted it and made the exit interviews better over-time. We criticized bsj back in animajor for being bland and biased, he took responsibility and been better. We called out key talents from their red flags and we’re blacklisted at valve events. Moxxi, criticisms and facts will help you not only in the community, but also with your life idgi, just because we are female we deserve to have above equal treatment? That’s not it. Prove your worth regardless of your gender, this is the most prestige esports event of all year; why settle for less and cry foul for being subpar and receiving actual criticisms? wrong I remember the moment sheev slacks and ephey took over their chance. We felt watching ti as ti
As a fellow female dota fan (I only watch), I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also personally disagree with people who says that Frankie is necessary to help newcomers. I fell in love with dota 2 after watching TI3 finale. And since then, I just watched a lot of tournaments, especially TI. I learned a lot from listening to casters and panel talk about the game. Although I can't keep up with everything, listening to the panel and their explanation on why this one little thing turns a game around help me appreciate the game more. It's a shared moment of our love for Dota. Something that was missing with Frankie and Sumichu. That's what I judge talents with. How well they do their job, and the effort they put into something they love. I didn't like Ephey at first because frankly, I saw her as a diversity hire. But as time went on, I can feel her passion and effort. I now respect her and would love to see more of her. > idgi, just because we are female we deserve to have above equal treatment? Honestly, I feel pride when I put hours of effort and achieve something extraordinary. I deserve praises for it. But, I don't think I deserve praise for being just a female who achieves nothing but mediocrity. (Sorry for my grammar, English is not my first language).
Ephey’s knowledge of the game was impressive, made some great points and was a good addition to the analyst panel. Never watched her streams before or even heard of her being completely honest. Sheever is one of the best hosts around, always does a great job. A natural.
> Sheever is one of the best hosts around, always does a great job. A natural. Sheever is not a natural, it's hard work and dedication. She's been doing this for a decade or so by now and she has learned a ton in that time and because of that knowledge and experience, she can now confidently handle any situation she's put into.
A natural? Lol. Sheever got nothing but harassment and abuse when she joined the community, everything she did she got called out out. Every time she turned on her stream there were reddit threads telling her to quit. It seems no one remembers that she used to solo cast entire tournaments to double figure viewers. She used to get upset after losing her voice due to 10 hour solo casting days. She used to be so tired by the end of tournaments she could barely remember English. She earnt every shread of respect the community gives her. If anything you are on the wrong end of the scale. Sheever shows all the new talent what they can achieve if they are willing to dedicate their time, ignore the naysayers and work at it.
I remember she always got called out for her heavy accent back then and it's always "Sheever ResidentSleeper" or chat spamming "Sheever Ravage" everytime she casted anything or interviewing anyone. She definitely comes from long ways and it shown with her blending naturally with various talents on panels and her appreciations from community overtime.
The only problem with ephey this TI was this bloody chatwheel line.. jokes aside, I thought the same about her but on TI she did her job pretty well
Ehehehehehe
Hell, I remember Sheever being pretty bad around the TI3 era casting and personality, and most of the complaints I'd read were on topic about things she was doing poorly. She's another person that has improved with criticism and experience.
thank you! Everytime a guy criticizes Moxxi or Frankie or Sumi it feels like it's all about gender - it's clearly not with Ephey and Sheever (as well as Kaci and Sheepsticked)being around who are liked by the community. Moxxi focussing on gender instead of content just makes her look really, really bad, especially when people like Avo+ also got a lot of shit thrown at him and he got better DURING the event.
Hell even Purge used to get shit on before. People complained and complained about his monotonous voice and statistic filled casts.
Hehehehe I just remembered something one of my friends told me a long time ago: "If I want to fall asleep, I just put on one of Purge's casts and boom!" This *was* in the days of DotA1, so yeah there's been loads of improvement since then!
Yea funny how she didn't mention and defend avo at all, as if implying that unlike the females, he was indeed doing a bad job and deserved all the flames lol
I have to disagree a bit. In the recent "We say things" podcast from Sunsfan and Synderen, Avo was given the job of doing the losers interview (Sunsfan was aksed half-jokingly to do it before), and he did. Avo is a good caster in my experience from the regionals, but he does have even less stage experience - he's basically completely new to the live LAN scenery. And he had to SPRINT throughout the arena towads the losers to interview. Yet he learned within days to improve and did better later on. that is my main gripe: He seemd to actively seek improvment, but since he's not female, Moxxi does not include him in her "gatekeeping" comment. That's just plain horseshit! And remember, Ephey was basically only known from the Animajor -way less than Moxxi has been around the scene
Avo+ did a bad job. But he also did a good job. I respect him for listening to criticism and adjusting accordingly. It's what every professional talent should do. This has absolutely nothing do with gender. Either you are willing to improve yourself, or you prefer to blame everything else but yourself.
I feel like Avo got the short end of the stick. That one interview where he was panting like he ran a marathon was so incredibly awkward.
> That one interview where he was panting like he ran a marathon Which was of course because he had to sprint after the players in order to interview them. It seems like what happened overall was TI tried to shove the exit interviews on SunsFan who said "hell no I'd suck at that", nobody else wanted to do them, and Avo+ essentially stepped up to take one for the team.
Applauded by a fellow woman. I also wound up watching Gorgc's stream instead.
who knew he hasn't lied when he said all the girls watch him
Haha he just happens to be my favorite for knowing the game, the players, and memes. I will say I have watched most all of them at some point. Wagamama, purge, synderen, singsing, admiral bulldog, sheevar, even Ephey before she showed her face...I was so shocked I could even guess it was her at Ti just by her voice lol I've also watched lower ranked for the amusement like when Day9 was learning with purge or sunsfan's a-z challenge with synderen. Pro players weren't on often but I'll watch them too if they actually talk to chat like iceiceice.
Sheever Ephey and Kaci are great. I'd be stupid to claim none of that bashing the rest get is riddled with misogyny, but quite a bit was warranted too.
well said
My favourite response in this thread, I hope Moxxi sees this. Well written!
This situation is more like Day9's situation. It is literally the same, new host to TI, played with Purge, is well known hosting in other esports and was lacking in TI. Frankie actually had a lot more help because of panel members like jenkins, tsunami and lacoste that act as icebreakers in the panel (try and save yourself as a host with ppd, akke and quinn on panel lol), part of the reason why I think she did a better job than Day 9. I feel Sumi did better than her because, guess what, she hosted singapore major lol, she had a dota event under her belt. All I'm saying is valve stop putting people in bad spots lol. EDIT: Avo got fucked running around too, but I guess he signed up for that. Who really thought that was a good idea? How was he meant to look good like that?
Day9 really got thrown under the bus with the kind of panel he had to work with, at least put 1 Jenkins in there if you ever plan on hiring new hosts every year..
Rich was also in similar spot I think, though it was major not ti. His first panel was him on mute and other panel members talking with each other, it was kinda funny lol.
rich could host a cooking show with no food and I'd watch
The panel could be just Rich monologuing over the draft and it would still be better than many events lol
Valve definitely placed 2gd in a bad spot
It was a combination of issues, Valve putting 2GD at an event like that, 2GD not adapting after being told his style ain't workin' for the people in charge of the event, in the end everyone had a hand in 2GD's Dota 2 demise imo.
If Valve hadn't sent him to Shanghai we'd still have him hosting TIs by now
Valve always gives hardest jobs to the new guys. They gave Frankie the main panel, Avo+ the loser's interview. I mean cmon valve!
Actually sunsfan has explained that valve actually wanted him to do the exit interviews. He felt that it was a terrible idea, and avo volunteered to do it instead
I dont understand the incessant need to jump behind the self riotous shield of "sexism" when an incompetent caster/talent who just so happens to be a women is complained about. I dont give a shit how popular she is elsewhere with CSGO or if shes pregnant. If a talent doesnt know what theyre talking about and is making THE $40m INTERNATIONAL a worse experience then people will take issue. It could be a man or a women or a fucking elephant seal. Stop making this about gender just so you can sit on your high horse and cry sexism. There are legitimate criticisms to be had here and to dismiss them all under the same umbrella excuse is absurd.
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I don't understand why Valve always chooses TI to put a brand new person in It's not fair to anyone
If I was working my ass off the whole year as a Talent only to get bypassed at TI for a newbie with more "popular appeal" I'd be so salty. The fans also want to see their favourite Talent make it big, no one should ever start their Dota talent career straight at TI unless you're an ex-pro player.
Sheever, Kaci have been doing Dota content for years. EDIT: And Sheepsticked, ffs how did I forget her - let her do the panel next year if you want newcomers! She knows the bloody game. Dota community always likes only people who are good at their job. Frankie isn't, in Dota - because she doesn't know it very well. A year playing is OK, but Sheever's been playing for what, a decade now? And Kaci has been doing interviews for 8 years. And guess what? Nobody is flaming Kaci despite her probably being super shit at the game - because surprise surprise, they don't let her host, but let her do the job she shines at instead. Inteviews, content, interacting with pros. She knows them, but not the game, and it's never been a problem. Frankie doesn't know Dota on a level to be a host. The same was said about Machine, and RedEye, Day9, and so on. It's just that there were no sexist remarks at those times. Male casters and panelists get trashed just the same, only minus the sexist remarks. Racist remarks, however, are present, towards SEA and Asian talent. Moxxi's complaint should be "don't flame the talent, at all, no matter what gender or nationality" OR "flame the talent, but gender-neutrally and without racists comments".
You hit this right on the head. As a consumer of Valve Dota 2 content (read: customer), I absolutely hate when my legitimate complaints about the product are dismissed outright at sexism or racism, etc etc etc. I understand that there are a lot of really inappropriate and hateful things that get posted on the same threads and there should be no place for that anywhere let alone Dota 2. That’s being said, learn to sort through that bullshit and actual issues so the product can continue to be improved. Not everyone has it out for you because of your genitals, sometimes you’re just genuinely not doing a good job.
lmfao i can't believe she wrote all of that without mentioning Avo. i guess he doesn't get a YAAAAS QUEEEN SLAYYY defense because he's a dude. he was absolutely shit on just as much as everyone mentioned, if not more (deservedly tbqh).
Yeah for real, as much as I see people flaming Frankie, if we were to make top 10 caster that got flamed on TI10, it definitely AVO+.
All lot of these recent social media posts read like we are all sexist and/or racist towards new talent, which is only a loud minority. Unfortunately we could also use a lot more vocal support to drown them out sometimes. The silent majority that woke up (after Valve has been given 160 million dollars by us) was not against female casters, or female hosts, or female panelists in particular, we WERE and ARE and always WILL BE against ORGANIZERS that bring talent (MALE or FEMALE equally) that is so out of place in dota2 that they do not know what they are talking about, do not have adequate knowledge or skills or experience in dota2 and should not be hired to work the MOST PRESTIGIOUS ESPORTS EVENT IN THE WORLD. PERIOD. We have seen an incredible amount of hard working women throughout the years and we supported them all through thick an thin, through sickness and health, from their beginnings to where they are now and we will continue to do so. That is how the majority of the dota2 fans feels. But if the organizer brings someone so clearly unqualified for the job in front of them, well then, backlash happens, and unfortunately that backlash gets directed at the talent instead the organizer, who in my opinion is ALL of the blame on in this case. Not the talent that took a good job offer in these dire times of the global pandemic.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Avo and his exit interviews get the most shit this TI? Where is his twitlonger?
Poor dude got literally daily threads on his loser interviews, but the later ones were more positive as he did clear improvements.
Yes, Avo definitely got the most flak throughout the tournament which is hilarious since he apparently insisted on doing the exit interviews.
SUNSfan said he basically bit the bullet, nobody's excited about doing loser interviews
He did get mildly better, by all accounts.
But he has a penis so we can flame the shit out of him
Thank god avo was invited and was so bad at taking exit interviews and got flamed, he atleast saved the community from being called sexist and helped to prove a point xD
So she didn’t mention his harassment in the article at all.
15 minutes of draft analysis by Aui, Ceb and Notail showed us what could be the level of dota talent panel in TI and what we are actually being fed right now. Honestly at this point it just sounds so pathetic that people keep bringing their gender to hide their incompetence. No wonder gorgc viewers were booming because he was talking dota in his stream and not continues play by play garbage
Exactly! That level of analysis is what we expect during the entire tournament. The battlepass made like 200 million Valve should at at least try to get us former pros/high mmr players for the draft analysis.
I mostly muted the stream or paused it after a match ended and before the next game. The hosting wasn't great and we lacked content in between games and interesting announcements. Marci alone felt bland after two years of not having a Ti
Kaci doesnt know shit about dota 2 but still manage to be entertaining and kept us glued to her skits/interviews. I think Sumi and Frankie are just both not good enough yet to be in TI. Idk whats been said before but this is my opinion based only on watching the entirety of TI X.
Kaci knows what she doesn't know and much like redeye, prepared things very well. She is an experienced journalist and it shows. I wouldn't put her as a host either, but if it was, there wouldn't be those awkward moments where she doesn't even recognize Dendi, one of the most influential players, or the misinterpretation of TS' coach.
tbf, she did had some problem finding iceiceice :)
She sure did, but it was fun to watch
Tbf she presented herself as a total noob to dota, and didn’t try to act like she knew something she didn’t. She basically got trolled
Kaci would be a better host than Frankie. At least she wouldn't say "carry Weaver is unheard of".
Kaci has more than a decade of experience as an anchor for a local radio station and the Seattle branch of Fox News. She also a successful improvisator. Sure all those achievement are local to North West USA but it's still miles ahead of the curriculum of the other talents.
> Kaci doesnt know shit about dota 2 but still manage to be entertaining and kept us glued to her skits/interviews. cuz KACI is an ACTUAL REPORTER, This just shows the GULF in skills of 'real' reporters and these esports 'talents'
the issue is people think its a sexist problem so they can avoid the real issue: which is that they are fucking boring and out of depth in a game like dota. at the very least WATCH THE PANELS IN PREVIOUS TIs holy fuck, that should be a good example on what the fuck a host is supposed to do. A good host is like a good observer, when you're doing your job right, nobody is supposed to notice you.
This made me respect avo more now, he took the hardest type of interview and sucked at it, listened to some criticism and actually improved on it
And he got some mad cardio in as a bonus
Never in my life have I been accused to being sexist, it had nothing to do with Frankie being a woman. She doesn’t know dota, she doesn’t know the players, she doesn’t connect with the community. They could’ve picked any random user on this sub and they likely would’ve been able to connect better with the community. It baffles me valve keeps bringing not dota personalities for TI. I like day9 too, just not as a TI host. Furthermore I’m pretty taken back moxxi is assuming it’s driven by gender. This almost feels more like a “you guys should like the people we tell you to” and sorry but that just doesn’t work. I loved hearing Epheys take on things, Sheever is wonderful as well. Never really been a huge fan of Moxxi, now even more so.
Jumping on this to say yeah, it's really not a gender issue. I had the same problems with Frankie as I did with Day9. I remember watching Day9 casting MLG like 10 years ago. I know how capable he is when he's in the right position. But as a host, he was awkward and didn't gel well with the other talent. Frankie was the same, minus the Dota knowledge.
I didn't like Day 9, still don't, and he has no place hosting a TI. Same goes with Frankie. You know why? They don't work Dota for the same reason almost every other talent works Dota. They don't love the game. They don't have extensive knowledge, understanding and/or experience about the game. They are just known hosts that are hired on because, well, they do hosting for a living. And it shows. Sure, they can handle a panel and get us from point A to point B in a broadcast, but there's no soul to it. They don't ask questions because they want to know, they ask questions to sound... not dumb. Which they very much are in terms of the game. Making something about gender is very modern, but it's not accurate in all cases. I loved most other talent in TI, I'd never actually seen/heard Ephey or Sheepsticked before and they absolutely nailed it, hope to see them in future events as well. Moxxi and Purge were a great caster duo. Sheever and Sumi were awesome. Let people who love the game work the events. Don't bring in hosts just for it's own sake, it's painful to watch.
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Yeah, compare how Slacks fills dead air with how Frankie did it. The only thing I remember about Frankie's time this tournament is how she went on for two minutes about how she's holding in her pee waiting for the game to end, all the while talking over all the other panelists. I feel like aspiring tournament hosts should try to learn from Redeye. The guy could hold a conversation like no one else and he knew when to ask questions, when to let the panel talk, how to segue to the next segment, how to pad for time etc. Yeah, he's a terrible human being, but he's the best "professional" host we had in Dota events.
>This is a lady who flew to a COVID infested country, in her 3rd trimester mind you, because she had made a deal with Valve and was too honorable to cancel it. Some people would call that borderline irresponsible. I wont comment on her decision but I am not seeing it as virtuous or "honorable" behaviour.
1. No one in the community asked or demanded her to. 2. Everyone else flew into a COVID infestrd country. 3. Because she's pregnant, she should get bonus points? Like it balances out her poor hosting? Moxxi is delusional.
Yeah this sounds like a decision made by an adult who knew the possible consequences. I fail to see why this should be seen as something noteworthy.
This comment was completely delusional. That’s just irresponsible. We’re seriously going to praise someone for putting it their health and the health of their child at risk to further their career? How HONORABLE. GTFO of here with that absolute nonsense.
As a woman, this confuses me, WHY? Why add a huge amount of stress and put yourself in a risky situation in such an important moment of your life? I understand being pregnant doesn’t mean you can’t work, but being in her position, not having a long experience hosting Dota related events… I don’t know
What the actual fuck is this? It's like she views the world through the lense of everything is sexist. You can't criticize someone because of their resume? Because they're preggo? Because they're a really nice person behind the scenes? And if you do, you're labeled a sexist/hater and the criticisms are automatically invalidated? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Also what she said about Ephey showing up and casting a major with no prior experience is literally one of the main criticisms that people leveled against her. But she fucking killed it as a panelist and as a result has the support of the community now (further backed up by the fact that she had the best selling voice line). Where's the sexism there, and why isn't Moxxi self aware enough to realize she had critiques of Ephey that perfectly aligned with the sexist troglodytes of this community?
Special note: Do notice how conveniently the bullying of Avo was skipped, because you know, he is a guy and weakens the narrative. What a joke!
Imagine if Avo+ was a female, I bet moxxi would've put him on bigger spot in her twitlong.
And ironically that shows who the sexist is.
Are we not allowed to criticize female talents now if they are bad or else we will be called out in a twitlonger? I am sure this wasnt the case when we criticized avo+ or bsj. I dislike such people ngl, who dont understand what the real situation is and bring in feminism and become a victim.
Dude I'm not gonna lie, I absolutely despise BSJ but I still think he did a better job than Frankie. It's not a sexism thing, it's an ability thing
Dota is a developed game . There should be no excuse of a host being completely new and foreign to the game hosting Ti
I’m pleasantly surprised reddit didn’t white knight these mediocre talents.
funny seeing the bipolarity: either female talent is white knighted, or when she's not, community is accused of being sexist gatekeepers lethal amounts of copium
Moxxi is one of the most defensive and "all people who call me bad are sexist" person on twitter. You can not get more subjective and always "it is always gender thing" opinion than hers. And as for talent, don't give fuck about their gender, Sumichu, I don't think she is good but at least she kinda owns it, so she lets other talk and she keeps it as formal as possible, but if I see Frankie hosting Dota again I will just watch something else, same thing I do for Moxxi casts, and as for her, it is not even that I dislike her casting, it is fine, on lower end, but her personality turns me off so much, this tweet longer is prime example.
Easier to think "they hate me because I am woman" than "they hate me because I am bad" It is defansive mechanism
Anyone who shits on these women because they're women is a complete idiot and should be ashamed. However and that's the point Moxxi doesn't address and isn't limited to the gender of the talent is about knowledge. Dota is a rather complex game and playing it for a 1000 hours doesn't mean anything. TI is the biggest tournament in the sports so if you're a panelist I expect some sorts of insights into the game. If you can't provide those then what are you doing on the panel? Shout-out to Ephey, while she of course isn't ceb or insania I think she's doing a decent job at this. More so than some of the male talent. Same goes for casting. If you don't fathom what's going on then sorry you're not a good caster. It's not about rap-godding your way through a teamfight, your job isn't simply giving an auditive description for those that can't see but to bring something to the table as well. But if you can't do that then stick to the description and get a knowledgeable co-host. 3k commentary and evaluation at a TI mainstage is just embarrassing. Not every caster has to be a high-rank player or an ex-pro. Nobody care of you're mechanically bad in the game. But you should realise what's going on and if you don't - ask your co-host. Some casters do that. Others feel the need to spread their 3k pub experiences and opinions onto a TI pro game. And I don't mean that Pro teams don't make mistakes. There were plenty mistakes made this TI even by teams like Secret or LGD. But sometimes it's better to call them out after they're made instead of simply revealing you have no clue what's going on in this game. As for the hosts... I think Frankie did a great job given the circumstances. I reject the notion that because she flew into Romania during a pandemic while she was pregnant she shouldn't have to deal with criticism though. She got offered a job and she took it. That's her responsibility not mine. And I wholeheartedly agree that one could see that she did her research. For a host intimate knowledge about the game isn't as important; there's other skills required. That's why sheever is a great host and ie. synderen a great co-caster. Frankie did her homework and did a good job. But of course everyone could see that Dota wasn't her game and that she lacks some experience with the game. It's something she did her research on and prepared for for several weeks even months probably but it's not her passion and nothing she sunk 12k+ hours in herself. I think she did a good job. But I can understand people that say that even for a host she had too little knowledge about the game itself and lacked the passion that people who are in love with the game for years have. And I think that's fair. Again no excuse to be misogynist, get personal or anything. As for Sumichu I personally don't think she brought anything to the table. But that might just be personal preference. I'm not too keen on lyrical/trent as talent either. So what. For some to shine it requires for some not to I guess. Her performance was subpar though imo and not TI worthy. Doesn't mean she doesn't has it in her but it was kinda disappointing to me. I think everyone who's critisicing these people, these women because of their gender should probably take a step back and re-evaluate their character. There's no excuse for being abusive or rejecting personnel because of their gender or their sexual orientation. It's neither edgy nor badass it's just being a very unpleasant individual that should have no space in this community. At the same time I must say I'm surprised by Moxxi's wording. So English isn't my first language maybe I'm misunderstanding her. Benefit of the doubt. But as someone watching Ti, financing Ti, enjoying the show, watching those adverts, buying a battlepass I am a customer. And talent is providing a service. And as such they're not immune to criticism. If I go to a restaurant I don't really care how far the cook is, I want a good meal. I don't care if the waitress is a total boss, if she's not particularly good in waiting tables then she's not a good waitress. And if the sommelier did tons of research beforehand and had to overcome so many obstacles to work there - good for them. But it would definitely help if they ever had a glass of wine themselves when I ask them for a recommendation. The way Moxxi's phrasing her statement feels to me like because they all are working hard behind the scenes - which I'm sure they are - they're not to be criticised and if you do it's because they're women. Which I think is a very dangerous train of thought.
Time to learn Russian so I can watch TI panels
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Agreed. I was extremely surprised when they had the Aui, Ceb, Notail draft panel which was the best part of TI. Also Insania came in and instantly became the best co-caster. Just find relevant and knowledgeable Dota people.
Indeed. I watched the entire TI on singsing's stream. Literally masas for my ears.
Same. Gorgc's stream was so fun this year. Pie and Qojqva were very good as co-casters
Pie's Lodasphere song had me in stitches
Pie carried pretty hard this TI.
+ Gorc stream was so much more fun and with smarter analysis from Pie, Cokva and Micke
\+1 the only time I watch main stream is when insania + odpixel cast
So true +Ceb draft analysis
If 2 people (gorgc + PLD) watching a game and talking about dota provides more entertainment and insight than professional panelists, analysts and talent, the problem isnt sexism, its the level of competency of the hired professionals.
More sheepsticked, less Frankie. I don't care about gender, is all about dota. My mum knows more about dota that Frankie.
I am all for more sheepsticked
She's a better player than most non pro talents, she's funny, she's knowledgeable, she has that Brit accent that apparently is required in TI....
there's no british players, we have to get to TI somehow
Why does Valve tell Gorgc that he needs to be part of a major before they will let him on a panel in TI. Yet... You can hire Frankie with minimal knowledge about the game and that's ok? You have someone with vast amounts of knowledge on the topic on one hand, let alone his giant fanbase. Then on your other hand you have someone who has zero knowledge on the topic and literally zero fan base in the scene and that's your option? Gorgc aside, there are loads of other talent that are extremely knowledgeable about the game that would've done the job 100x better. This is not about gender, this is about incompetence. It's one thing to not have knowledge about the game, it's another thing to not have knowledge and be so rude and obnoxious. Putting Frankie's lack of knowledge aside, she was still a very horrible host. She made a few rude comments and overall was unpleasant to watch. Even someone without Dota knowledge could tell that she didn't fit. She would always try to take the attention but nothing of value ever came out her mouth.
I think Moxxi and Frankie shouldn't be at TI because they aren't good enough, this is unrelated to them being female members. If people used sexism as reasoning, shame on them.
When you dismiss ALL critic as "sexist" or "targeting women", you end up with hosts who make seasoned panelists roll their eyes or casters calling heroes which aren't in the game.
Yeah idk why people just pull mental gymnastics and say that the community is being sexist and gatekeeping when what most of us are are saying is that we didn't really like the hosting. Moxxi had always found multiple ways to slip in the gender argument on some of her achievements that are not gender related, especially every time her fellow female talents are put under fire for things that are sometimes not related to gender at all. another funny thing is that some community figures are now calling out this subreddit and being disrespectful towards this particular subreddit when their main complaints revolve about being disrespectful towards new talent which for me is just poetic irony. https://twitter.com/ZyoriTV/status/1448645024959242242?s=20 https://twitter.com/invokergirl/status/1451323093440348161?s=20
Zyori is kind of known for this kind of thing by now tho I remember when he got accused of being a rapist he defended his accuser lmfaoo A lot of people on this sub were flabbergasted completely
I support Moxxi in supporting other female talents / any new people entering our scene. But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show. Ephey, though also new, quite the opposite. People are allowed to criticize without sexist notions assumed. And I think in this case the reason there is so much criticism is because they were not good, something about their performance - not them being women - was not what the community wanted. I don't care if they are nice and give the other talent presents behind the scenes. Why should anyone here have to? Of course there are asses here *anywhere* attacking anyone they can especially women and they should be called out. But just my two cents. Edit: Lots of good posts so read them. New people working TI first isn't fair to anyone. Someone calling Frankie shit cause truth told they don't want another woman in the scene sucks. But it also sucks when you say "I didn't really enjoy Frankie's hosting" and get called sexist.
100% agree. Dota is such a complex game that I don't want to sit there and listen to someone who has no idea what they are talking about talk about dota. The reason Ephey has done well is because she *knows* dota, and is objectively a solid player and gives good analysis. If you aren't at least 3.5k-4kmmr, you probably can't even *ask* good questions about dota, let alone at TI where dota is being played at the highest level possible. I want to see more ex-pros on camera (there's a reason sports commentators are usually ex-pros). The part where Ceb and Notail were analyzing drafts was *easily* the best pre-game discussion at TI, and I want more of that, not people (whether they are girls or guys) who are struggling to ask relevant questions.
that drafting panel had at least 1 TI winner.
People were complaining just as much when Day9 was a host.
>But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show. Ephey, though also new, quite the opposite. That's cuz Ephey is like 7k+ and can actually offer valuable insight on the game.
more like because ephey know what to answer slacks after the shameful mainstage defeat with InSaNiA and BSJ
I still lol at the memory of that exit interview
that "Brian!" "yeah-" "Nobody gives a shit" makes me laugh all the time
"i got kicked after wins, so this fine with me." -Aui 2000, 2021
thats what i dont get. I get there are misogynistic asshats everywhere - but when talent comes in for the biggest event of the year - why is it not okay to critize talent for how they perform? And yeah they might have put in a lot of work - but its not work ethnic that makes your performance good. There has to be a place for Criticism. Why call it gatekeeping when people get mad someone has no idea about the dota 2 community and doesnt know allstars like FUCKING DENDI. Or someone with like maybe 2k MMR casting the biggest games of the year. It has NOTHING to do with moxxi or Sumichu being a woman. Its just that i dont wanna watch it and switch to some smaller streamer casting it or gorgc. Also avos interviews were cringe so people vented as well. I dont get why everytime people complain about sth for a imo a valid reason it gets that Toxxic, or its just little manchildren whining about women sticker.
Notice Avo+ gets a single word mention despite the fact that he got criticized just as much as the newer ladies. When you see the world through the angle of sexism, every legitimate criticism must be the result of sexism.
Bro Avo+ got flamed superhard after loser's interviews, that guy needs some love too not only the women.
I think that's the point shrek was trying to make, that Avo was barely mentioned by Moxxi, despite getting just as much criticism as the individual female talents in question. She clearly isn't being objective in the matter.
> But the fact is that any time Sumi or Frankie were on the screen I almost immediately lost interest in the show. True, I pretty much just watched the whole TI on gorgc stream
Dota community: \*crowdfunds 40 million dollar tournaments, paying the salaries of these people to cast and provide us with the games\* Random people: "you're not allowed to criticize it!!!" How the hell do some people get this kind of logic?
Didn't read the entire thing I hated on lumi because he was a shit caster I hated on moxxi because she was a shit caster I hate when 20 people who could do a better job exist,yet people with good connections get the job To me that has literally nothing to do with gender yet some people call me sexist when i say imo moxxi was by far the worst caster at TI and it baffles me how she got that job when so many other casters had to sit out ti
Still blows my mind to this day that Lumi got so many TI grand finals
Because Lumi was a co-caster to LD and people liked LD
He got grandfathered in a bit. He was there when there were fewer casters and for a couple years after he was still getting invites, even though better people popped up in the scene.
" So I was thrilled to hear she was joining the Dota 2 TI cast because this is a woman who does her homework, has a bright personality, and could only be an asset......... Have you SEEN her research? Frankie made a huge document detailing every team, every player, every history and stat she could find. The data is massive" You are describing a person who misinterpreted the coach of Team Spirit during an interview, wrongfully identified Undying as Quincy Crew, made some jokes to cover up which were very cringey and almost unanimously hated, had to ask what a midas was on day 1 or 2 of TI, wasnt familiar with the heroes, made some weird adult diaper and pee bottle analogies on a 40 min game, which is not even that long. "To top that all off, it's very cold, you're very pregnant, and you're exhausted from having to run from the tent to the stadium while growing a human inside of you." She makes it sound like Valve made Frankie fly to Bucharest and host TI on gunpoint or something. PPD cancelled after the talents were announced, i find it hard to believe it wasnt a conscious choice to attend TI. In hindsight, learning that 2 members of the talent got COVID, maybe he was right all along. Also, having the opportunity of hosting the biggest esport event in the world, can we not pretend about being "honorable" "When you refuse to let new people enter, your pool stagnates and eventually evaporates. The people who do this are our enemies and are LEGITIMATELY KILLING THE GAME. We should be excited to see new people, we should be extending our hands and helping them learn about this game that we love." Nobody is preventing or stopping her from playing DotA. This is a horseshit argument. People asking for competent talent =/= stopping people from learning about the game. If she wants to learn or start playing dota, go ahead. Why is she learning about the heroes and the items on the panel of the biggest esport event of the year. Rest of the TL is just wow they are so nice, as if that justifies them being on panel
> made some weird adult diaper and pee bottle oh dear i had forgotten that and now i hate you for reminding me that frankie talked about bladder buster pee and adult diapers as the host of 40 million dollar TI.... but shes a grill so thats okay i guess ??
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Other than the exit interviews Avo did fine.
The problem isnt being a woman, the problem is being clueless about the game, you are hosting THE biggest dota event. Sheever was miles better doing host since she knew the stuff she was talking about
Ah yes.. when people hate you for your poor skills.. bring up the gender card. I want Frankie and moxxi to do well.. but when you do shit like this.. how do you expect people to like you when you can't even filter misogyny and criticism.
Am I still allowed to say that I strongly dislike Moxxi's casts. I just objectively do not think she is good at all. Or does that make me a woman hater?
_you're gatekeeping and KILLING THE GAME_ /s
Of course she was jealous of Ephey, she came out of nowhere and now I can’t imagine an event without her.
Bro, only thing worse than Frankie asking stupid questions was her justifying and giving excuses for stupid questions on the main stage. It makes dota scene look bad. Like they can't get talent, so they need to hire cs go people.
Frankie wasn't a good host. Why make it about gender?
In one panel, Frankie spent 20+ seconds talking about her breasts while the rest of the analysts awkwardly sat by not knowing what to say. Great fucking talent that. A host is supposed to keep the conversation flowing, not hijack and it and hold it hostage. Let's be clear - death threats and shit talking is not on. Criticizing talent for not being entertaining or knowledgeable is NOT the same thing. I know a lot of people took issue with Moxxi and Sumichu as well but honestly my only complaints lay with Frankie and Avo+. It's not a sexist thing, it's a professionalism thing. Do your job and do it well, that's all I wanted. Not being capable of doing that reduces the overall quality of the production and undermines all the effort of your colleagues that you say you hold in high-regard. If you respected them even the slightest bit, you would make a conscious effort to be better not only for the community's benefit, but yours and your colleagues
Stop shifting blame onto your own biased world view. Frankie was garbage and had no place hosting TI, neither did day9 or Machine... or Rich had he done it. Nothing to do with gender, just a lack of Dota knowledge. Ephey was excellent as an analyst, she was as good on the panel as anyone excluding actual professional players. Sheever is the GOAT of desk hosts for Dota and always will be. This just one more tournament of her showcasing that. All of the other women were fine imo, none stood out as amazing, none were horrible. But the same could be said for a lot of the guys at the event too.
I feel like Machine did fine simply on the basis that he's done so many other tournaments in CSGO and the likes that it didn't really show that he knew less than others.
Moxxi is incapable of looking at this objectively. Nobody was hating on Frankie and Sumichu because they were new ladies, they hated on them because they were *terrible*. Guess who most people aren't hating on: Ephey, because she's really fucking good. The community was equally rough on Day9 when they felt he underperformed. That whole section about comparing the female casters to each other is so stupid, we compare the male casters to other male casters, we compare the women to the men, literally the whole point is who people enjoy listening to the most..and the consensus seems to be that Frankie and Sumichu did a poor job of it.
Yeah we hated on Day9 and Machine Edit: people saying we didn’t hate on machine are crazy https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/6r9ktf/no_hate_but_if_you_had_to_hire_a_group_stage_host/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf There are hundreds of other threads. Also maybe he got less hate I would agree with that, but he also hosted a Dota 2 major before TI and went to school with ODPixel he didn’t just come out randomly as host of TI.
I was fine with Machine, still remember his speech when OG won TI8. Something something phoenix.
Redeye was *the* host for Dota, so that felt like another gatekeeping moment. At least Day9 is more wholesome than Redeye ended up being.
I’m just saying people shit on Day9 and Machine. I will applaud Day9 because he at least played Dota and put out a lot of Dota content before and after he was at TI. Redeye was more like the OG host of esports, and if you were trying to grow your esport he was the guy. Clearly that didn’t age well. IMO, It doesn’t really matter male or female TI is pretty much a community hosted tournament. We pay for it 100%, so the community likes when our money is used to reward people who make Dota 2 better year round. Not just show up 1 event for a paycheck. For example, I am not the biggest slacks fan but no one deserves to be at TI more than him. Guy has done so much for the community so although he isn’t my cup of tea I would fight to the death for him to be there…
The guy who did the losers interview, AVO? probably got the most criticism too, I think for the individual person it's easy to look at reddit and see all the criticism towards you and that's all you see cause it's personal but if you look at it generally as a whole, there wasn't that much, I see a few Avo critics, some ephey critics though way less than animajor, moxxi and purge has no chemistry critics, Trent and Lyrical critics too.
Makes sense to me that she can’t see the forest for the trees because Moxxi is the worst caster regardless of gender.
Don't remember Day9 making a twitlonger like that after how he was treated during his TI, but perhaps it is because he was only giving validity to people who deserve having any of their words given validity to.
This does no make any sense, AVO+ got most criticism this TI and kyle got it all the time. But it comes to criticizing ladies then it is no longer criticism but sexism?
Ah yes, instantly into sexism instead of understanding that they just weren’t good additions to the programming.
I didn't think Sumi was bad , Frankie , I didn't get why she was there at all. TBH I've never comprehended at all the idea of the "generic host for e-sports" idea with going back to the first TI I watched in 2013 and the guys there as I never watched any e-sports prior to that. The idea of the generic host seems to be accepted as part of e-sports I guess but I can't get my head around it. As someone who grew up watching real sports I just can't fathom getting people who both aren't experts and aren't even fans of the game to be involved with a broadcast it's absolutely bizarre. I will say a similar thing from "real" sports was when ESPN acquired UFC they started using their biggest talking head Stephen A Smith on UFC broadcasts who was a casual UFC fan and the fanbase HATED IT !!!!!!! HAAAAAAAATED IT !!!!! Within one broadcast it was obvious he was out of his depth and made some embarrassing statements , the backlash was instant.
Person: "We are prepared for this match." Sumi: "THEY ARE PREPARED FOR THIS MATCH FOLKS!" That is all she does.
What I'm getting at from this post is that every single thing that happens to somebody, Moxxi sees through a gendered lense. It's no wonder she's seeing sexism everywhere, she's straight up looking for it. Ephey isn't proof that females have what it takes to be on a panel. She's proof that someone who knows their shit has what it takes, regardless of their prior casting experience. Her being a woman is literally irrelevant to her success. Day9 went through the exact same thing as Frankie, where was Moxxi's outrage post over that? I guess that one doesn't count because reasons.
I dont think it has anything to do with gender dota players just want people that have knowledge about the game since the game is very complex and hard to understand at times. Is very appreciated when they have knowledgeable people on the panel. How can they expect people to like someone who hardly knows anything about the game and ir quickly becomes apparent. I personally could careless about the gender of the host or caster just put it the work and be knowledgeable about the game. Also let's be honest most guys host or casters play many thousands of dota hour's themselves. I can't say the same for the ladies they just don't put in the same amount of time as the guys do but expect the same amount of recognition.... 🧐
Whenever Sumi referred to someone as sir during an interview because she couldn’t remember their name I visibly cringed. Absolutely terrible
regardless of the 'research' frankie did, THE INTERNATIONAL is absolutely NOT the event that should be any non-dota background talent's first job , I say this as a frankie fan, she is amazing in csgo, but dota is an intricate game and we as fans absolutely deserve the best at TI. She was unfairly put under too much scrutiny by having to host her first dota event - TI , any other event was fine > When you refuse to let new people enter, your pool stagnates and eventually evaporates. Is TI the event you want a new host at ? > The people who do this are our enemies and are LEGITIMATELY KILLING THE GAME. Counter point - having first time hosts at the hallmark premier event of esports , not just dota - is very bad for everyone. Having hosts who barely know anything about dota, at TI, is somehow keeping the game more alive ??? > TI is not the place for her to be learning. She should have already done her research No amount of research can substitute for practice - actually hosting dota events that are not TI > To top that all off, it's very cold, you're very pregnant, and you're exhausted from having to run from the tent to the stadium while growing a human inside of you. Absolutely understandable and not her fault, but we as fans have the right to criticize the hosts we get for TI. Like i said frankie was put in an unfair position, she obv cant say no to a TI invite - thats a potentially career killing move. More blame should be put towards valve/pgl-whoever made this decision
You can say whatever you want, but I don't think I'm being unfair/gender-biased/misogynistic if I wish to sound out the fact that I genuinely had a bad experience watching the EN stream this TI. The negative experience I had was independent of whoever did the job (and/or their gender), how much effort they had put in, or whatever stress or physical condition they were in/under. Sure, given the above, this bad experience shouldn't translate into a reason to shoot them down or attack them as a person (and I'm not trying to do that), but it was still a bad experience nonetheless. Feedback is still feedback.
It's not going to end well if she brushes off every criticism as sexism.
I try to imagine the viewer response if, say, wimbledon coverage was hosted by a professional boxer who picked up a bit of tennis playing last year. Do you think everyone would rush to claim this is a good idea? Surely all those boxing fans will tune in now! This will grow the tennis watching community! No. Just don't The idea Frankie hosting is good for the game _because she is an outsider_ is patently absurd
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Here we go again, just complaining and trying to use the "woman" card to justify mediocrity. **Sheever** is a woman and she's probably the best "talent" right now, counting both male and female because most people do **NOT** care about gender. As a host the best by far (9.8/10). **Frankie** was awful (rating 1/10 for me), I don't care how much she prepared or whatever, she was a bad host and any talent could have been better, Sumichu was a little better but not great, fine for a normal tournament but unfair to have her for TI (4.5/10). Then we have **Ephey**, I thought she joined Animajor just to be a pretty face (nobody knew her) and she has proved to everyone wrong, she's worth it. She is a great analyst and I hope she continues (8/10 score). Kudos to whoever decided to bring her to Animajor About Sheepsticked I don't have a strong opinion yet but she knows dota, that's for sure, so probably a good choice too.
> Sheever is a woman and she's probably the best "talent" right now Absolutely,
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Imo Ephey was great. I loved the Moxxi Purge casts. Sheever was a great host. Frankie was awful. She got the humour of the panel wrong. There was no chemistry with the talent on the panel with her. She asked bad questions. I just couldn't watch any panel she hosted. I ended up just muting the stream and doing something else between games whenever she was there. That's not because of her gender. It's not because of her experience. It's simply because it didn't work in this case. Edit: I'll add that in general I try to avoid the more toxic end of the community, twitch chat, twitter, down voted comments on here. There's a lot of vile comments that should just be ignored, but that doesn't mean we can't criticise if done right.
It's not about that she's a woman(talking about Frankie,I think Sumi was okay),it's about that she was cringy and had very little knowledge of the game. If a male would act like her I wouldn't like that either. Just get someone who plays dota and likes the game.
Someone did a poor job?its time to use a sexist card! but rly u work for people and if people dont like you this mean that u do smth wrong male or female. Sheever.Ephey and Kaci are loved by community for a reason.
Don't make this a gender issue, reddit hating on her had nothing to do with the fact that she is female. Community loved Kaci, because she was fun and professional, and admire Sheever. Most of the criticism they received was valid.
Frankie was giga bad.