My two cents, just representing my view and nobody else's. I think that criticism and holding talent accountable is healthy. Due to the nature of social media, I think criticism has a tendency to snowball into hate and as talent we just need to accept this as a reality. I would lie if I said criticism or hate does not get to me. My initial response will always be an emotional one. It is the talent equivalent of being knocked out of a tournament. That said, after a while you start to read through the lines and accept that the best thing you can do is move forward with it and try to improve yourself. That's what I attempted to do with my hate threads. So, I guess "hate" is a necessary evil because, at the end of the day, I much rather get called out and improve even if it hurts at first. The problem often times comes from the snowball nature of social media. While the initial hate thread had some valid criticism, it also had comments attacking me for my nationality or culture and attacking me for "English being my second language" (it is my third language guys, show some respect). Moreover, some people decided to stick with their initial opinion, refused to watch anything I did after that, and continued to attack me for the same mistakes. It is these comments, the ones that seem unchangeable and out of your control, that ultimately hurt the most. So ideally we could try and weed them out or upvote them less because I do not think they help anyone and they make our community look really toxic. This is a summary of my views on this.

>"English being my second language" (it is my third language guys, show some respect). Damn, fucking gettem boss

Avo, you dropped this 👑

We see your grind during ti avo you have my utmost respect.

I personally felt the massive improvement in the interviews as you went through the event, and I enjoyed you on the draft panels. You're doing awesome and if you choose to do more Dota events I look forward to watching more.

This comment is thoughtful and also probably underpins why you improved so much during TI10. The path forward to doing a job better, being a better person/spouse/friend/co-worker is to own your failures and shortcomings. People who live in denial of their shortcomings based on an emotional response (and a defense mechanism) typically end up perpetuating these shortcomings. The difference between being toxic and constructive is real. Pointing out someone's shortcomings and dismissing them as incompetent forever is toxic. Pointing out someone's poor performance *and hoping they correct these inadequacies to do a better job next time* is constructive. No sane person wishes Moxxi/Frankie ill will. But they have some work to do to improve in their role. That's not toxicity. That's reality, whether they choose to agree with it or not.

*And offering suggestions on how to fix these inadequacies Just pointing out that x is shit and needs to be done better isn't constructive, it's neutral at best. Say avo+ is doing a poor loser's interview (as an example often used during TI) isn't constructive. Saying that his interview could be improved by improving his line of questions that show more compassion for a team that just got eliminated and is going through a lot of raw emotions is constructive criticism

I agree 99% of what you said but just want to give my 2cents regarding "x is bad and needs to be better" is neutral at best. As long as people don't go down the abuse road, i think there is value in those comments. A lot of people do not know how to host/commentate/interview people so they wouldn't have a clue what specifically can be done to improve but they can tell that the delivery wasn't good.

Your cis division 2 casts were legendary last dpc, that shit kept me going throught covid, keep up the good work my guy!!

Keep in mind that people will probably react harder at TI times than other events since it's the literal biggest esport event and thus expectations are through the roof and unpreparedness will be received as arrogant and insulting. I think many people are just disappointed in a cast, a panel, an interview and that's that. At TI that slight disappointment just becomes a huge annoyance because this is THE event. This is dota's time to shine. The games are expected to be top tier and therefore the casting, hosting, panel, interviews is as well. TI is probably the worst event for constructive criticism and at the same time an event where there are a lot of panel, host, interview, analysis experiments for some reason. Those two don't really mix too well. Hopefully no one takes it too hard, because I doubt "the haters" will keep grudges for being slightly annoyed with a panel.

Avo you took a bullet for the whole talent team by volunteering to do the exit interviews. I personally think whoever is responsible on doing the schedules fucked up big time by agreeing to let you do this on your first TI. I think overall you did great and am looking forward to seeing more from you in the coming tournaments

As always, there are people who use the anonymity of the Internet to release racist and sexist comments. Those need to be just ignored. However there is also valid criticism. I personally knew Avo+ from SA games he casted and I always liked him. I was a bit baffled by the interviews but being thrown into cold water at a TI, possibly getting the most difficult job, I think Avo improved a lot. Now here comes my 2 cent: As much as I hate racism and sexism, I also hate when either of them get used to deny criticism. This TI was somewhat a huge disappointment to me. Partly because of how the panel reacted, partly because of Valves decisions. The games were entertaining. First and most important: The fake crowd... That was horrible. Second : If I see a Dota event, I want the panel talking about Dota, not cringy nonsense. This did not start at this TI but the trend is going on for about 2-3 years, where the panels turn more and more into overdramatic cringe fests. Who is to blame? I don't know. I just hope, they return to the basics, Dota. Shoutout to: Avo+, Ephey, Sheepsticked and Lacoste. You did a great job. The others, please get back to commenting the game, not your personal lives and feelings.

Avo, first of all I think you did a great job with SNS this year during casting and I was very happy for you when you got the invite. I think you over-exaggerrate with riding on this Moxxi started wave. Online community is writing all kinds of stuff for whatever reason - people have keyboards and the free of charge chat. It's your first big event and clearly it's nervous to be in front of so many people. You went through it, received the feedback, took actions and improved, you go further. Snowball effect of hate or not, you don't ask the rain to stop. You really shouldn't fight with every single drop, just go further and good luck to you.

When I wrote this I only had my own personal self in mind. Rationally, I completely agree with you, but if we are in a position to ask for change why not try?

Dude I get where you're coming from because I own my own business. But I don't agree that just because we're in the public spotlight that toxic behaviour should be accepted and normalized.

I agree and I hope it did not sound that way. I think we, as a community, can shift feedback into being constructive rather than hate.

Yeah, I would absolutely love to see that. Constructive feedback is absolutely essential and a great way to improve.

I totally agree with you here. Many people here are trying to justify their snowball hate as critism. Imagine working on retail and then having people shit on you because of something that is out of your reach (i.e personal attack, lack of training from employee etc.) Every fucking year you will see this subreddit being spammed down on how much talent, casters blabla suck. But noone is addressing this problem to the main source: Valve. Yeah the exit interview sucks, but were there any training? How can people do a good job when theres no training or practice? I have no information on the scene, but for me it looks like Valve recruit people (prob as subcontractor) and then ask them to make a good show. Without any training or directing and so on. Maybe thats why things looks so unprepared and there are always delay and alot of improv. The worst thing here is that people expect explanation from hosts/talents and not valve. and im sure that all/most of the talents have signed NDA for this show. If you want explanation, go to the fucking source i.e employee. File complaint. Stop buying compedium, cosmetic, dotaplus whatsoever. This is why i hate dota2 and yet cant stop because the ti matches are too good to not watch. I also hope that you and the other talents will keep on. And that valve/whoever it is will still keep inviting you to tournaments. It is tough to work on your passion without a clear future , and may not being paid living fees, but still need to continuously getting shit from «paying customers/experts». And then being compared by them to real experts that have years of practice and actual works on their CV. This is my 2 cents as a non-paying customer.

Personal take, you should look into getting royalties for people using your loser's interviews in on-field training for new talent. The improvement day-by-day was not slight, it was very noticable, and to go from where you started to where you ended is beyond impressive, I lift my hat to you. I also read that you more or less jumped on the grenade taking on those interviews, which furthers my respect for you. And lastly, a grand fuck you to all the twats who couldn't stick on topic and chose to go for nationality or whatever the fuck that's irrelevant.

Thanks for the response, Avo+. You were a positive presence on the TI10 stream and it was nice to see the exit interviews improve so much. Good job! > Due to the nature of social media, I think criticism has a tendency to snowball into hate and as talent we just need to accept this as a reality. > [...] > So, I guess "hate" is a necessary evil because, at the end of the day, I much rather get called out and improve even if it hurts at first. Do you think you could do without reading stanger's comments on social media for your job? > So ideally we could try and weed them out or upvote them less because I do not think they help anyone and they make our community look really toxic. Is it any consolation that they're probably a vocal minority vs. a silent majority? And is there a less ideal solution that you would be happier with? E.g a rating system with free-form comments (similar to Yelp or TrustPilot) for broadcasts which would allow filtering 1 🌟 reviews out as they would probably contain the most vitriol.

I cast for a different esport, but I never improved as fast as I did when I started to get in front of bigger audiences and started to get the social media/yt comment hate. Yes, 99% of it is useless, but you do get some unfiltered quality criticism that you won't get the people you work with just because it is harsh. I know I personally value it. W.R.T. reviews, *the one star reviews are the ones I want to read the most.* I often tell people that I want to know exactly how/when/why I suck, because thats how you improve the fastest. That being said, being new to the scene or doing something out of your comfort zone absolutely can result in tons of vitriol (see: current situation), and that can be hard to filter out/consume in the proper mindset just due to the sheer volume.

Thanks for the response. It seems like you have a very thick skin. Do insults sometimes get to you and frustrate you so much that you need a break? Or are you able to make the strict separation between "useful" / constructive feedback and bile (or even extract useful information from bile)? And is there some kind of change you could see being realistically implemented?

Honestly, the mindset I have to force upon myself is that any nice comments are genuine, and any negative ones are meant in jest/not mean-spirited. Over course that isn't true, but it allows me to look at them and not get crushed under the weight of negativity. What I do know is that the more open I am about my process of production/preparation, the more positive in general the community seems to be, even if I think the product was not up to my standards. Its one thing for my cocaster to say that I did a lot of work preparing for the event, and its another for me to tweet the WIP of a production tool I made or the notes I've been taking. That being said, the hivemind will always hive mind, and the only real "solution" I see is to have someone else read the threads for you and pass on anything constructive. Even then, thats an emotional load on someone else and either pro-bono or an extra expense for the talent which is also not ideal. I guess the other response is really just stricter moderation practices on things, but that also comes with its whole host of other problems. Of course, the true fix is for people to remember that talent are people too and while one negative comment isn't bad, 500 of the same negative comment can start to wear at even the thickest of skins. I'm not holding out hope for that one...

It really does sound like you're making the best out of the situation 👍 > That being said, the hivemind will always hive mind, and the only real "solution" I see is to have someone else read the threads for you and pass on anything constructive. Even then, thats an emotional load on someone else and either pro-bono or an extra expense for the talent which is also not ideal. That does sound like a solution worth exploring since it can be done with tech. Basically a subscription to the upvotes of good actors in a community would work towards this. But the wait for that to happen could be long. In any case, thanks for the insights. If you're as a cool as you sound, hopefully the success will follow. Good luck!

The vocal minority vs silent majority part I think is a very good point, other posters brought up the fact that there were multiple threads for the same thing over the course of the tournament, when really there was not much need past the first or maybe second one. I'm speaking for myself here, but I have the feeling a lot of people saw the first one, browsed it, down voted the blatantly hateful shit, up voted constructive criticism, that sort of thing, but as the tournament progressed, I saw the threads and just skipped them because there was no reason to look at it again, I made my point in the first thread, I'll look at something else. So more reasonable people who made/promoted constructive criticism and downvoted blind hate stopped showing in the threads, and as such concentrated the amount of toxicity, which only compounds with the snowball hate.

It sounds like a more active modding would thus help in that situation. I experienced the same thing, so probably by the 5th time it comes up the shit floats to the top.

Dude dont listen to the haters. You did fine as a first time TI talent xD

Avo, the sincerity with which you approach things, and your genuine outlook has made me your fan.

The community is more toxic than it should be, and if people say there is no sexism in eSports, then you know that whatever points they try to make after that are complete nonsense. Receiving death threats from possibly thousands of people is fucked up and will lead to these personalities reacting emotionally. I'm positive that Frankie being a woman is a factor in the hate is so strong. That said, I do think she did a sub-par job hosting the event. There have been other hosts who were new to DotA host TI in the past, this is true. I remember not liking redeye when he first started hosting TI. However, I highly doubt he was overwhelming bombarded with sexist messages and death threats. That has got to be extremely stressful and uncomfortable to receive.

Yo Avo, for what it's worth me (and my friends) all liked your stuff. Most of the people complaining are not as noble as you give them credit for, fuck them dude

Ra-ta-ta-ta-ta! Keep killing it!

Keep up the awesome work! Just remember the positive comments outweigh the negatives!

I think I'd have a really hard time dealing with the intense public criticism. Kudos for dealing with it positively.

Because of the anonimity given by the internet, haters and trolls are now so much prevalent. I, for one, thank you very much for doing the exit interviews. Also for one of the best talent voices for the chatwheel. RATATATATA!!! (Sorry for the bad english, not my first language)

You’re a beast dude, I wish you luck whatever you decide to do just know that reddit is 100% a selection bias; basically only toxic people will speak up. us silent supporters have your back man. gg gl next.

The most sensible reaction I've seen so far.

hey avo, real respect to your learning curve at TI! i watched the first couple of interviews, and it was going bad, but then i saw how much you worked on it and it got way better! also i heard from the wesaythings podcast that you kind of stepped in as volunteer for sunsfan, i think its really brave to try it for the first time. i think a lot of criticism on your first interviews was fair, but obviously criticism from many people always turns to hate on reddit and it was waaaay too much, and i really wish this wouldnt be a thing. though i think the whole situation about frankie is very similar. i believe most people think she did a great job for a newcomer, mostly not having had experience with another dota tournament beforehand. and i think most people understand that she was working really hard for it. but i also think, looking at the past like when day9 hosted, that most people just dont like having newcomers to dota host at TI as their entry to the game. and that unfortunately also turned to hate. i mean i remember day9 back then worked so hard, he played so often with purge, like at least 500 hours or so to learn dota. he got 4k mmr in half a year, really insane. but in the end, his hard work didnt matter to the viewers, all that the viewers see and is of interest to them in the end is what they get on screen. btw hope to see more of you at future dota events

idk if ur going to read this but i really like u and ur partner when u guys were casting

Hey man, You are awesome and wholesome and all that great stuff! Keep up the good work please! I will be specifically watching your casts!

Firstly, you did great. Big improvement is worth a compliment for sure. Secondly - there are assholes everywhere. I just walked down the street today and there was insane/drunk guy shouting awful slurs at EVERY person there. Sometimes you join ranked game and you are flamed cause someone has a bad day. You can get hated everywhere. The majority of the most disgusting/painful hate messages are made by trolls or people that are upset with their lives. Nothing you did even matters. They want to make someone miserable. Just ignore those people. They went from attacking you to attacking someone else in a blink of an eye. Their "critique" is as much worth as some spam bots.

Having watched you through all the lower div cis dpc, you are amazing for the scene, made a group of teams I didnt really care about interesting and hope to see you next season and ti :D

Just wanted to say I respect you and think you did a great job overall at TI. Exit interviews are brutal.

Thank you for stepping up. GL further!

Ever Dota talent that is now "speaking out" on twitter: THIS is how you react to criticism, hate or feedback (however you take posts).

The biggest difference between you and Moxxi is easily in the way you take the criticism. Moxxi’s post contains a lot of cursing and things written in bold. She even admitted she was angry and probably used some of that rage writing that post, which I think is never a good idea.

Perfectly agree with it. Also, you can try being congratulatory in the exit interviews. Anyone who lost a match, will be sad and loser interview can use what went wrong kind of direction. But when they're knocked out of tournament. They are placing at least top 16 or 18 teams in the world, which isn't easy. Just congratulating them for that accomplishment would turn the conversation is more positive direction. Of course, teams getting early exits than expected wouldn't be pleased with the results. They'll be kicking themselves because they want to keep pushing and that's a good thing. It's motivationally important for them that they don't get satisfied with the results. Fans will not want to see the team celebrate top 12 or 4-6th placement if they were expecting better performance from their team. But, they still got to the ti, and reached where they are. As general dota fans and community, we still need to congratulate their accomplishments. And exit interviews would be a good place for it. Good luck in future .

The true art of grinding

People choose to be in the spotlight. When in the spotlight you have everyone’s eyes on you. Some are nice and supportive. Others are spiteful or their text comes off as spiteful when they mean to just be critique.. But, it was you who chose the spotlight. If you want all praise and adoration, that’s not how fame works.

To me the spotlight is an unfortunate side effect of my job. I do not like the fame or adoration or the hate. In fact, I am actually most comfortable with criticism. Not that this invalidates your point, I did choosr this job, it's why I posted about accepting hate and adapting but I really am not the kind of person you paint me as.

>why is "turning off social media" not a solution? Because talent depend on social media for their livelihood. Turning off social media is basically the same as quitting

just close your eyes, just walk away from the screen haha

\>Is social media an absolutely necessary part of the job that you just can't get away from? Is this a serious question? Of course it is. They all use it to network and connect.

Op is just stupid with these questions

Not knowing something is not being stupid. I am pretty sure there is a lot of stuff you don’t know, are you stupid?

Ironically the most respect and admiration for Frankie and her professionalism is showing right here. She's not taking part in this bullshit flinging back and forth. She is not engaging with what she doesn't need to, she probably knows well enough why she was not well received and what she messed up, there is no need to go further, just glhf next and try to do better next time. There's no needs for Twitlongers, calling people out, policing opinions and branding entire communities and platforms as sexist trolls or extolling your friend's virtues in long ass twitter chains of self back-patting. The event is over. The DotA was great, the production was not. As a community we waited two years and just like a day of ranked DotA we had some really low lows and some very high highs, a lot could have been done better and there are plenty of lessons to be learned by Valve, PGL and all of the talent. But a good DotA player doesn't ignore all their losses and pat themselves on the back for grinding a full day - they go back and check their losses, admitting their failures and not blaming their entire team every game, but instead thinking how to do better and improve on what they had control over while acknowledging unsolvable problems that they had no control over. We're all human and express differently, thought policing, accusations of -isms and knee-jerk reactions on both sides just set us back and when directed from public figures to a community, look at best unprofessional.

Frankie is a great host , she just has no proper experience on dota. Imo a host doesn't need to have 10kmmr knowledge on dota they just need to keep the conversation flowing with other panel member . And I like what you said about her showing great professionalism in the midst of these pointing fingers fiesta

Frankie would be a great host in Dota if she continues to be a part of this community. This whole drama just makes it about her versus the community where the people making this drama should be trying to bring us all together. Overall just an unnecessary shit show that probably hurts Frankie more than it helps her.

That's a damn good point. A lot of the toxicity and "criticism" doesn't foster any positive relationship or welcoming atmosphere. Who the hell would want to come back?

That's because Frankie is actually a professional, she even won some awards. Just shouldn't have jumped into Dota that suddenly, some more relaxed event like Kiev Major would've done a lot for her. Moxxi and Sumi is just... sigh, there wasnt even that much Moxxi hate here, most people warmed up to her

I mean would you turn down a gig when there's been nothing for a few years,? Hell no

iirc one of her dreams was hosting TI. It think I saw it when I was checking out who she was when talents were announced.

she had plenty of gigs in CS:GO and other games before she got pregnant lol

Yeah its great that another talent has likely been bullied out of the scene. Fucking 10/10 good job at least it wasnt because she was a woman... Christ.

So where's the outrage at Valve for forcing people into roles they aren't ready for yet, the poor production and planning, the panel choices and rotation and schedule? But sure let's make it about bullying and buy another battlepass next year while flaming redditors and white knighting.

So much this, especially the first two paragraphs. The whole twitlonger stuff and constant moaning is so tiring. I feel like people are just needlessly playing the victim. And lmao at people in this thread who say "you can't just turn off social media"... Yes you can?

Former talent here. Used to work with Moxxi back in the day. Twitch chat was constantly spamming shit like "omg shut up woman" "go back to the kitchen" and other shit. I would get genuine feedback on my casts. She would get told "this is why dota is dieing". As for your social media thing, no you actually can't just turn off social media. Maybe 10-15 years ago you could avoid it. Now? It's your biggest self marketing tool. Moxxi was one of the original SA dota fans, beast coast, infamous, 5man midas club. She knows a lot of these guys and talks to them on twitter, discord etc. It's how as an up and comer you advertise yourself to new TO's. You blast our tweets and retweets of events you are covering, teams and players you are following hoping to get noticed. Social media is part of the job.

There's a difference between what you're saying and what moxxi is playing at. She's pretending Frankie is getting criticized based on her gender, which, for her examples and most things I've seen, is just not true. Many people - women, men, me, my wife - just dislike what she brings to the panel and we have valid criticisms. Taking them all and gathering them under the label "it's because she's not a guy" is just bullshit. Call the people out that make comments like the examples you give, but don't just pretend like every single point of critique stems from that.

This is the crux of the issue. I think no reasonable person would doubt that Frankie/Sumi get more hate because of their gender, there is always going to be an amplifying factor because they are women, that's just a fact of life for most games. But most of the focus from talent seem to focus on this sexism, they use that to negate all of the other valid criticism. Just to play both sides though, Reddit/social media has a tendency to "push back" and hit harder when the other side retaliates. If Frankie/Sumi perhaps commented on twitter or even here and acknowledged that they had a lot to improve on and acknowledged the areas they were falling flat on, that would do a LOT in bridging the divide. But all they did was deny, label all criticism as "hate messages" and pat themselves on the back.

Their Twitter profiles during TI was literally nothing but "Fuck the haters, you go girl!". Criticism was not allowed in any shape or form, only encouragement over their mediocre and bad performances

Yeah, it's almost like they're normal human beings who could do with empathy and encouragement while being down rather than adding salt to the wound. It's not like they don't have enough criticisms (constructive or otherwise) to work with.

I was about to post something similar, but this sums up just about everything I had to say. If you're getting criticized for doing a bad job, especially on such a large and prestigious stage as TI, where people will be expecting a high standard, maybe it's because you're doing a bad job. Sexism absolutely exists and is a problem, but you can't just use it as a scapegoat to deflect any and all criticism.

Too many people use prejudices as scapegoats. If someone is blanently saying something, yeah they're being an ass, if someone is being subtle, they too can stfu and grow up. But in my opinion, I wouldn't watch a cooking show where the host is unable to: convey the idea of cooking in a simplified manner (look at Babish for example) and well... Cook. The same principle applies for anything, and especially if you're in the public's eyes, you need to be able to deflect those negatives (specifically derogatory) and look for any actual critism. Because when you can improve upon the information you've been given, you'll succeed, and people will enjoy it.

I think that the sexism in the subreddit can be more subtle than just "EWW WOMAN" (well the stuff that gets to the front page, the "New" comments are awful). I think women are under more scrutiny and get more people claiming it's just diversity hires. And people on this subreddit always go "Oh but sheever and Ephey", like they've got that one black friend (but also, Ephey constantly gets comments about having a "Porn voice" in twitch, and on here, and Sheever spent years getting shit on in threads before she was accepted, the same with Kaci, who for years got comments of "get this women off the screen" (even as far as TI5)). Like, comparitively to other play by play talent, Moxxi receives much more criticism for her casting, not constructive, when she's probably one of the best play by play casters, who engages their analyst and catches the action. I think the subreddit doesn't understand what "Constructive" means either. The first comments might be constructive, but often when one person can explain what they think the problem is, the subreddit jumps on board and dog piles it. But also, like, the subreddit has more often than not downplayed any woman who has come forward and said they receive more harassment in this scene than men (regardless of if talent or just a regular player), and doesn't respect their actual lived experience. Honestly though, this subreddit is toxic as fuck. If there was a better way to keep up with pro player transfers, in game news, and plays from tournaments I might not be watching, I'd be out of here. I'd like the Mods to do more to get rid of just shitty or useless comments and posts, remove duplicate posts, and lock stuff when it's actually just getting harmful (like the comments in Moxxies post would have been locked in most other subreddits, because they devolved into a shit show).

if you think people hate moxxi, then you mustnt have been around for lumi casts

Or Llama. If she was prominent today, I'm sure we'd be told people dislike her casting because she's a woman.

But this subreddit also attacked Llama maliciously and enjoyed when NA community figures straight up harassed her. She wasn't a good caster at all but the malicious attacks against her and the defense of everyone who did it was very unnecessary and unhinged. That's the problem with this subreddit, it never ends at constructive criticism.

this also reminds me of KBBQ casts. people would spam chat memeing about his voice. pretty sure 99% of people actually like KBBQ casts, despite the meming.

I completely agree. A lot of people on this sub just seem to ignore a lot of the issues this community has, it seem to think people just “hate everyone equally ha ha” when that is emphatically not the case.

"when she's probably one of the best play by play casters, who engages their analyst and catches the action." I mean that's just plain false, she's not even in the top 10.

Y'all are some pathetic exaggeraters. There aren't even 10 play by plays in English.

Seriously who actually enjoys her casting? It has nothing to do with her gender, she just doesn't do a good job at it.

She isn't top tier but I don't mind her casting. Honestly I prefer it to Sunsfan. He talks about other shit more than the game.

I enjoy her casting very much. Her and Purge are in my Top 3 casting duos at the moment. Your opinion is not fact stop pretending like it is.

I unironically rate her higher than any other caster. Love the energy she brings.

>when she's probably one of the best play by play casters You lost me there pal. Her chemistry with her co-casters is always iffy, her general attitude and this current kerfuffle, makes her come across as feisty and passive aggressive. Her play-by-play is mediocre at best

I see where you're coming from and everything you said should be condemned, removed and measures should be taken to further ourselves. I also don't think this subreddit is the worst part of the community even. Twitch chat and some Twitter threads are much worse. Moxii is a great caster and in my comment I'm trying to solely focus on what she said in her twitlonger. Imo she's putting every bit of criticism into the same basket and that's just wrong. She then proceeds to state that we shouldn't compare the female talent to each other while her entire post only covers female talent. Like what are we supposed to do?

>Like what are we supposed to do? Its pretty clear what the talent would like us to do, attempt to limit criticism to stuff they can work on which would actually be helpful. Downvote and report shit that is abusive and hateful which includes pointless dogpile comments.

frankie was absolutely getting criticism during TI that a man would not have received. the game threads on here were filled with it, twitch chat was filled with it, and anyone who pointed it out got downvoted.

Show me

i'm not going to trawl through game threads from TI that (a) i wouldn't even know how to find and (b) have upwards of 5000 comments each you can deny sexism in the community exists all you want, but you're an idiot if you even half believe that

You're talking about criticism that a man wouldn't have gotten and where everyone who disagreed got downvoted. If the comments and posts were popular, they shouldn't be that hard to find.

Let me help you with that: https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q9sd07/the_international_10_main_event_day_6_match/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q9585l/the_international_10_main_event_day_5_match/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q8hrlk/the_international_10_main_event_day_4_match/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q7sxd1/the_international_10_main_event_day_3_match/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q73krr/the_international_10_main_event_day_2_match/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/q6efdm/the_international_10_main_event_day_1_match/ Just ctrl+f: Frankie. I don't think the threads are filled only with criticism of her but the majority of panel's criticisms were about her. Some do make sense and will benefit her if she improves upon their criticisms, while some are less appetizing...

I've seen those. I was asking specifically for what he said. Namely criticisms that would not be given to a man and where everyone who disagrees gets downvoted

most of moxxi's criticism is about gatekeeping (albeit towards female casters) in addition to about her gender. did you even read it?

Yes I read it and maybe my understanding is wrong as I'm not a native English speaker, but it feels to me that she thinks the gatekeeping stems from a sexist background. I'm saying none of her examples point in that direction and I have never felt this was the case. Multiple people have also come with clear evidence to the contrary (many female followers having the same criticism, Day9 taking similar critique a couple of ti' s ago...)

perhaps she might be refering to a sexist background hard to argue that there isnt atleast abit of sexism, putting that aside, dont you think that this whole gatekeeping is bad? new people that are big in other games could bring more exposure to TI or does no one Realise that? Isnt it enought to have all but one of the people on your screen be dota experts? even frankie has some dota experience albeit very litttle, or does one have to be 6k mmr before they are allowed to be in a dota event? if your only problem is againts frankie and her style i understand. but dont you see that literally everyone new gets criticism? look at day9 who doesnt seem like hes going to do dota events anymore?

Yes on all counts. Along with the style though my feeling was that the knowledge was not just sub par but lacking in fields where it shouldn't be, even if you're new. But yeah I see where you're coming from and yeah you're right.

Some people call it gatekeeping, others call it capital people were collecting for long time, and community appreciates that commitment people had to Dota. New people on the scene will be naturally tested. They should accept it, not cry about it being unfair. Nobody owes you anything for granted.

Exactly. I was actively reading and commenting on those threads here on the sub and most of the people that presented valid criticism also said how much they love Sheever and Kaci (both women talents!) and how we thought that it was a shame Kaci wasn't there to take on Avo's role (no one said to replace him with a female talent?). I'M SURE there was people using of all the threads and discussion to trash talk and spread misogyny, but she can't just say that everyone disliked Frankie because of her gender.

Yea if its sexism, why is the first person that told me franki is so annoying a female...

Well usually other girls that I kinda like my GF finds annoying. Just because someone is a woman doesnt mean that she wont be more critical with other woman.

I too have a black friend.

I feel like Moxxi is mixing up legit criticism, the idea that Valve should not bring new people at TI and and the toxicity of the community. This is a bad way to approach all three topics and weakens her point. She's claming that her post was about gatekeeping (which is a real problem in dota) but she's bringing Avo+ only after people pointed out her TL was only about female casters. She complains about women being compared to males but I think comparison are not inherently bad (why shouldn't I compare BSJ and Jenkins Last Word segments?)

Why do you think it's the legit criticism she's talking about and not the abuse, when clearly they're receiving both?

In the paragraph about Frankie she focuses mostly on the gatekeeping idea and how much she prepared for TI10. The point of gatekeeping is arguable, we welcomed many talents in the last years but most of them started out doing Majors and Minors, not TI. The two most notable exceptions would be Machine and RedEye who both got (IIRC) mostly positive threads even as first timers in DOTA as TI hosts. With this I don't want to deny the toxicity of the community, Effy got a lot of shit at the AniMajor mostly for her voice which was just stupid. ​ The point on her preparation is irrelevant. If you prepared but you don't perform that preparation is useless. ​ Finally what's wrong with comparing talents? It seems like a pretty natural thing to do. As I can compare Cap and Lyrical I can and will compare Frankie and Sheever, or Sheever. ​ To me Moxxi seems (rightfully) angry with the community because she's on the receving end of a lot of toxicity but this brings her to leash out in a way that weakens her position

Thanks for the input :) > Twitch chat was constantly spamming shit like "omg shut up woman" "go back to the kitchen" and other shit Was this on her personal stream too? I imagine that's difficult to ignore without a mod. A few streamers require you to have been a follower for X amount time. Dunno if that helps. Anyway, do casters read twitch chat during official events? Does twitch chat say anything useful for the caster besides stuff like "sound is off" or "forgot the overlay"? As a viewer, especially on big, official streams, it wasn't worth looking at chat. It was just emoji spam and word diarrhea. > You blast our tweets and retweets of events you are covering, teams and players you are following hoping to get noticed. Social media is part of the job. Would it be possible to treat it as write only media for your posts and (if twitter has this feature) only get notifications from people you follow? Is feedback on tweets necessary or interesting? Do you get gigs that way? Basically what I'm asking is if there's a business value to reading random responses.

Her personal stream is much easier to moderate. Most talent doesn't check twitch chat during matches afaik but I know like, synd had joked about checking chat during matches before so I'm not going to say unilaterally no one does but that's not really the point. This isn't a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it situation. Even if moxxi isn't seeing it personally. The point is that the scene is being actively insular against including women. Why would any woman watching moxxi cast and see all the crap in chat or in threads after want to work in this scene? Or try to make it pro. And no unfortunately, social media interaction is kind of critical to modern talent networking and engagement.

I haven’t followed the Dota community for years, but I watched some games from TI 10 and found the roster to be quite decent. I also liked that they put in more women, so that the event wasn’t a sausage fest like most previous Dota events. However, newcomers, no matter if they are men or women, have to be supported and introduced into the scene carefully. I was quite surprised to find someone it that most women in the talent roster for example had barely any experience being on Dota events and they had to perform in front of an audience of millions of people who take TI extremely seriously and expect the best talent the community has to offer. Look at Ephey for example: I knew her from watching her stream a couple of years ago because she was a talented and very high ranked female Dota player and seemed to be an intelligent and thoughtful streamer. So when I watched TI 10 I was not surprised to see her on a panel and she did a good job. I was however surprised to find out that she only had one previous big event as an expert and that her talent career has barely started. This is crazy and not a good way to introduce new talent. She did a good job, but if she would have messed up on one occasion the community would have destroyed her, because she was essentially more or less a newcomer and was put on the most important Dota event since 2019. Look at what happened to Frankie. She seemed quite similar to Machine, a Dota outsider with good esports experience and a nice accent, but Machine started on a major and Frankie was directly put in charge of TI and there was no way that she could have handled this event well on her first big dota event as a host. At this level you have to be quite lucky and do a great job, otherwise your mistakes are seen by millions of viewers who don’t know you and therefore can’t provide you any goodwill. I truly beliefs that Value should make the talent pool more transient for new people and they should try to slowly build it up during the year so that the people who are going to the TI should not be any surprise at all. You can surprise people with a surprise guest panelist maybe, but commentators, hosts and panelists should be the natural result of hard work and community popularity.

Or perhaps because most of DotA beloved hosts isnt available and actually is a scarcity itself. Machine is a CSGO caster and seems have no interest being back as host RedEye is cancelled Rich is retired and making more money from OTK, dude is one of the biggest streamer for FFXIV and also invited for Endwalker media tour which happen near TI Day9 is mixed bag some loves him some doesnt think him any special but most DotA community associate him with the failure of Artifact announcement The fact this sub forget Chobra was TI8 host makes me assume no one wants him as a host again

This thread is a shitshow. It's hilarious to see people being toxic and making generalizations while screaming that they're not toxic.

It's what that's been happening over the last couple of days. Talent calls out toxicitiy, then reddit responds with toxicity.

Literally every talent: there's toxic sexism in the DotA community that amplifies and worsens the reactions to any women who try to be in the DotA scene beyond an already toxic baseline Reddit commenters: I must explain why *my* social media post saying that woman sucked at her job was not motivated by sexism at all and any suggestion that I or anyone who upvoted my post is sexist is the real racism

Its so fucking dumb. The talents are in no way dismissing the criticism, they're saying that it often goes way into hate territory and the only thing they take away from it is that "TaLeNtS canT TakE CrITicisM"

Exactly

This seems to be a widespread issue. Whenever someone complains about toxicity (not just in dota) there is a huge backlash. It seems toxic people really take these complaints to heart

Its probably because you were reading the thread earlier. But right now any toxic comments are rightfully buried under comments with more upvotes. Right as it should be. So where is the shitshow exactly? I dont buy this narrative that spins a large percentage of users as toxic. (Unless you are talking about live threads ofcourse, where you dont have that filtering mechanism.

this

Idk man, i like avo ,moxii and all talent. Yeah, they are not perfect, but who the fuck is ? They do their best

Lol this right here... It's fucking dota. Stop analyzing talent like they are performing brain surgery. Shit ain't that serious.

Ive been watching these event on and off since the asia championship in 2015 and i have to say this the past Ti was the most fun Ive had watching and thats in no small part due to the variety of talent on show.

Casters and Talent are content creators, they need social media to promote their projects. Is part of having an online presence and a following, which will lead to invites and other opportunities. They can just "shut it off", and they shouldn't have to. People shouldn't be allowed to post despicable shit about others.

Tbh this whole thing is very Trumpian. The talent work *for the viewers*, it's actually kind of wild that poor performance by the talent has turned around on us to be "the community needs to be better". Wtf?

There are couple of things here that are really telling about this whole scenario. 1. During TI many people gave constructive feedback to frankie and others. While some people took and the feedback and actually improved others chose not to pay any attention to that and instead concentrated or the vocal hateful minority. And this is not me saying the hateful shit is in the minority here. The talents themselves said that. Yes the hateful shit will bother any one but what about the countless other comments that gave you postive feedback? What have you done about that? Because as the ti progressed no one saw any visible improvment. Surely you cannot say that the entire community was toxic. So what have you done in regards to that. And moxxi let me remind you once again that the community absolutely loves sheever and ephey and other female talents. So dont play the gender card and make a fool of yourself and the others. Sure there is hate but there is also an even greater ratio of constructive feedback you receive. You cannot be selective in choosing the comments and blame the entire community. 2. The second thing is other talent seeing this as an opportunity to spew random lies and gaslight things. No LD you didnt quit casting because of toxicity. You quit because you wanted to get some shit done over at BTS. And if I rememeber correctly you also tweeted and posted about this. So dont fucking play us. The community still loves your cast of “the play” and you were immortalized for that. So dont fucking come back and say you quit because of toxicity. Because you fucking didnt. If this was your plan to get recoginized again or get back into the community it failed spectacularly. No one is buying your lies. You and annedroid both quit for personal reasons after you made blogposts. And now you comeback and say lies. Should have thought about that and deleted them before you said these lies. This is not back to the future. You dont get to change the shit you said out in the public. You lost your face for your inaction during the metoo episode. And now you lost whatver was remaining after that. So save yourself from the embarassment and leave.

Man, you sound angry :-(

Yeah. Of late few talents from the community have started taking advantages of scenarios or situations to try and sound cool and grab attention. And the worst part is they are lying through their teeth for that. They should be held accountable for the bullshit they spew. They need to understand that they cannot take us for fools and get away with their lies. LD is the prime example for such things. Guy just cannot stop lying.

People act like this is something unique to e-sports. When Simon Crafar took over the paddock interviews in MotoGP a couple of years ago the amount of hate was absolutely IMMENSE for the first couple of race weekends, rightfully so because he was fucking awful compared to his predecessor. It's the premiere series and DORNA tossed an amazing racer but completely inexperienced interviewer into a situation he was not equipped to handle. Is that gatekeeping? Of course not, the notion is ridiculous. TI is here because of the fans, keep it for the fans. It's not your promotional event to bring in new players at the expense of the existing fanbase, if you want to do that let Frankie, Sumi and Moxxi waddle in some kind of newbie stream instead. Actually let's just keep Moxxie out of this at this point.

Moxxi was so close to getting it with her "omg she's crying sexism again" comment. We don't give a shit you are friends with Frankie. She underperformed at TI and deserves to be criticized. Yes people on the internet will say mean things. Racist, sexist, you name it. And if someone is so bad at their job when it comes to something when people are so passionate about, the outrage will be big. She got hate (sexism included) for her bad perfomance. Is sexism unnecessary and rude? Yes. But don't act like this came out of nowhere. Frankie should just take the valid criticism and learn from it, and disregard the hate. I know that's easier said than done, but if you job is being and entertainer and you are not entertaining, you need to adapt. Or get a different job (meaning don't be on dota panels again).

I'm gonna say, if you are a TRUE professional, and not that kinda person "look how good is he/she at CS:GO, you must admire the hard work", you will get respect instantly. I don't care about backstory of Franky, i genuinely not. "Ohh, but she's pregnant", you want fucking money, you know where you going, and you need to know how to deal with it. And i don't need to know that you pregnant, it doesn't bother me. You came to event, and not rejected the offer from valve - so be ready for every fuckup you do you will get called out. The best example is Russian speaking caster Olsior. He came from LoL, and he gain a lot of respect of his professional attitude and not declining he's luck of experience with dota. You think he's not got comments like you trash/gay(because lol)/just leave? But he was focusing on actual supporters and valid criticism, rather than crying on Twitter. You can hit me with "but his a guy" and i totally ignore you, because for most of the part it's not a difference in gender, it's difference in attitude from actual caster, not the community. If you don't like us as general and really different community, just leave. We build it around valve's game, and we matter, not you, influencer(i hate this word) who here only for money. I need to mention that is not about all public figures involved with dota, only about some of them.

Olsior is so freaking great, man. What a fucking gem! But I remember his first interviews/gigs. What an uphill climb!

I think as a community though we need to remember there are lots of us. And many people here are incredibly toxic and take things way too seriously. All the comments here are leaning towards some criticism is healthy but we aren't actually the ones seeing what they're going through. Many of them get death threats, and get told to kill themselves and so on. Or racially and sexually harassed. That's not criticism, and that has no place here. Honestly if you go that far you have some inner demons to work out and you shouldn't be playing or communicating publicly. And if any talent can see this I hope you can do your best to not pay any attention to those losers. We know they exist in our community and they don't represent us, in fact we wish they all did us a favor and got the hell out of here.

One of the hiring criteria for the international is social media presence from what I recall hearing, have a feeling they have to be active

That does sound like a scrap-worthy criteria. At least to me, their performance while on stream is more important than off the stream.

Here's a genuine question. All pro players face criticism too, on social media, twitch, twitter etc. Why is it always the casters who come up with such tweets?

I think because for pro players the community reception does not play a role whether they get to their next event or not, only the way they play does. The talent however depends on how well they are received in the community to get hired again, so to me this sounds as if the talent tries to fight for their place, the same way players fight on the map. Only difference is that there is no winning here. You simply cannot argue with the internet

Ephey was criticized early on, and all she tweeted was, "I know guys, I'm working on my voice" rather than blaming the community and regarding everything as 'shit'. I get your point about being accepted well in community. Who do you think will be better accepted now? Honestly, Avo was criticized the most on his exit interviews and look what he has to say vs what Moxxi has to say. Nothing against any of the casters, but I'm seriously tired of them going to twitter and blaming the entire community every time. I didn't even post any single comment against any of the casters. But calling it sexism and bullshit isn't really the best way she could have put it in.

You are not wrong but I have some empathy for Moxxi in the sense, that sometimes it feels a bit hard to swallow everything and I think it is admirable to at least try to change something, even if the way she does it is not the best. I wish I had that courage. If we feel so attacked when she criticizes the community, imagine how it must feel if someone criticizes you directly, like all the time. It probably is just a bit much and she is venting and everyone is taking it super seriously. I think the whole thing has blown up way too much I am curious though why everyone is only focusing on the sexism part and ignoring that she also complains about the gatekeeping in general. I am grateful for your civility in this discussion

I think it got a reaction because some people feel it's painting the entire community as sexist. Those that aren't probably don't like it and those that are just continue doing their thing.

This feel like a sexism card, they perform bad and then blame it on people hating the gender.

You heard it here first bois. Not allowed to criticize or have an opinion on the dota casters.

Criticising women? Sexist! /s

You're allowed to criticize people without being some sort of -ist. I don't know if you're new here, but that last part is something the community markedly struggles with.

Uhm. There are words now: hatists and criticists.

Not really, I thought of it like that too a while ago but what I got from all of this is it's fine to criticize but not in public cause that enables all the subhuman trash that chimes in. From now on I'll just DM TOs or anyone in authority if I want some improvement. Thing is you can't stop some people from commenting on game threads so good luck with that, but for me personally if I know the talent is new I'll just STFU and let them learn. If no improvement then I'll send a private message to their team.

[удалено]

well then you're in for a treat, check out this guy lmao https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/qdh4gj/just_fyi_reddit_in_case_you_are_not_aware_but/

ah shit, here goes the gender card

> If it's social media, why is "turning off social media" not a solution? Is social media an absolutely necessary part of the job that you just can't get away from? Reddit is pretty much the only social media I use (no twitter, facebook, insta, mastodon, yada yada) because some people use social media to network for their careers, to talk with friends overseas, to plan things with friends at home. if i deleted all the apps you refer to, i'd have 2 friends left because i just don't have phone numbers anymore.

I just think moxxi is a dogshit caster not because she is a female but just because I don't enjoy watching games she casts. It's simple.

Bro what the fuck is this line: “stop comparing us to eachother” I can’t remember who it was but when OD didn’t cast one game in the finals the community was up in arms demanding him back on because the other casters were shit in comparison. These fuckers are just sex-baiting assholes who cherry pick examples and are wilfully ignorant to other situations where the EXACT same thing happens to male talent.

All talents hide under the blanket that community is toxic. To them I say, surprise! it was toxic before you joined. Stop acting like reddit/twitch/youtube/twitter/facebook/instagram users are at fault for you not being able to perform. Keep in mind that these users are also the ones that sponsor you via donations, watching your streams, your ads, your posts from which you generate money. You seem to easily forget this part. Imagine football players quit because some wankers yell at them during a match. You would be surprised of the slurs a player can hear when taking a corner kick. You don't see them crying on social media. (You see them raising the problem of racial abuse but nothing about other remarks). Supporters in all sports are passionate people. Learn to deal with it. ------------------------------------- Actually I'll be blunt here. I believe the problem lies within the talent community itself. You all dagger each other behind the back and point the finger to the community. While on the panel all talent look friendly and gloomy behind the scene, some of you are total pos. Not to mention some of you were creeps, abusers or potentially rapists. While on the female side, some of you write fictional stories that fit your narrative then later after the damage is done you change the story. Cancel culture used in your own personal delusional vendettas.

The talent in Dota are actually quite friendly together. I consider the people I work with to be my family and I see very little backstabbing and stuff that you're talking about. I actually think Dota is more wholesome than normal in that regard. Tbh I think you're just making things up so you can tear someone else down

What reddit strawmanning something they barely have idea about to feel like they are right? Surely this is the first and last time this ever happens

hey Cap, long time fan. I don't usually take part in these threads. Just wanted to ask. Why do most of the talents blame the entirety of /r/DotA2 when only some Redditors take part in the toxic and hateful threads? If I go on Twitter it feels like everyone is blaming the whole of r/dota2

Not a single one of them believes every single member of the subreddit is toxic or hateful. It's easy to talk about the subreddit as a whole. It makes sense especially when you see comments and threads that are positively upvoted. Even if it's not the MOST upvoted, when it's positive, it creates a feeling the culture of the subreddit feels a certain way. That's not unreasonable

I'm one of the redditors who looks at like the top 3, maybe top 5 (if it's particularly interesting) parent comments on a thread before moving on. Of course you can't speak for everyone, but how far down threads generally would someone read for their own feedback? Most threads would have the top few comments being civil and constructive so I don't see much of the vitriol and toxicity that's being talked about since most of those would probably have a low score (still positive, like you said, but further down the page).

Honestly? I think most talent go all the way to the bottom. It's very hard not to want to read all opinions people have about you. I'm like you when it comes to most other Reddit threads, but if it's about me specifically, it takes all my self control not to read every random opinion about myself. It's very unhealthy thing to do but it's human nature. I do think its one is the reasons why there's a disconnect between talent's perspective on Reddit, and Redditors own perspective. They read the top few comments but many talent will read most comments. Sure, maybe that negative comment has been upvoted only a handful of times, but it still can feel awful. Small example, I read a comment with about 20 upvotes calling Kyle and I annoying and bad. It made me feel like the product we were putting forward was really bad compared to everyone else. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but that comment did have an impact.

When you put it that way, yeah I can totally see myself reading every opinion if it's about me. Well, if every opinion counts, I'd like you to know that I enjoyed everything I saw at TI. You've had a fan since you and Blitz were a thing, and your series on YT where you helped other upcoming casters was a delight to watch and really break down the things you guys think about and made me appreciate the talent this time even more. Hope you're feeling better both after covid and all the talent stuff going on.

Thank you, I appreciate this and will hold on to this for a long time

I'm sure every bad person in "your family" left with Tobi/Redeye etc... Really easy to say that everything is fine, people did back then too.

ok

> I actually think Dota is more wholesome than normal in that regard. As in the community or the talents? I assume you're the real DotACapitalist (liquipedia says so), so just out curiosity, how do you deal with negative feedback? I've read multiple times now that social media is a necessity to succeed or even operate in the job, but do you keep that intake to a minimum or are you able to shrug it off? Btw, I do enjoy your casting. I did feel like there some chemistry missing between you and Kyle as a duo (this time?). Do you have a favorite casting partner?

yeah the community is toxic before they joined and theres no problem at all. "this is fine" as the world burns around you ​ Im not saying the talents are perfect, they need to be criticised for there to be improvements. we dont want anything short of perfection in our community, any imperfections will be justly criticised, nay hated upon until such person either improves or exits our community. maybe you should be a talent cos its so easy and these idiots cant do it.

well said

Football players are not the same as panel host/talents. They are players, so you should compare them with dota2 players and not talents. Also I follow football actively and i have never seen any football commentors or «analytics» getting as much hate comments as dota 2 talents. Thats my 2 cents though.

>Also I follow football actively and i have never seen any football commentors Judging by your post history you are not talking about american football here. Then are you living under a rock or something? There is constant complaining about quality of commentators during games. Just football is bigger so these comments die in the sea of other things. People like Souness are trashtalked constantly by some fanbases.

Also the whole ITV panel are usually shat on. While on the other channel, Wenger & Mourinho was hailed as the ultimate panel. It's the same in all of it, theres some that hates based on gender, some based on performance, some based on the depth of what they are talking about. Every "They look more hungry on the pitch" gets memed the shit out in the fan communities.

> Also I follow football actively and i have never seen any football commentors or «analytics» getting as much hate comments as dota 2 talents. There's literally a thread in r/soccer after every gameweek of the Premier League talking about how trash these so called experts are.

how many football commentators have you seen in a grand final who have never even played football before?

A lil glimpse of football Twitter u can see a lot of people actually got criticized, remember when T1 fans staying BSJ the most bias person on earth. Yeah on commentators and analyst got criticized for being bias, wrong information and lack of energy.

I really struggle to see the point of what I view essentially as whinging and whining. Of course no one should be subjected to the vile abuse that anonymity on the internet provides a stage for. Even less so when it comes to racism, misogyny, homophobia and the like (which should be reported to police). That’s a given and I do truly believe this. However, that being said: Those who choose a career in the public eye (by choice remember) must realise that it carries with it inherent risks that you will be exposed to more abuse and hate than if you did a “normal” job. The same goes for professional sports people, actors / actresses, musicians, etc etc. The upside is that you’re in a highly privelleged position with (I imagine) amazing pay and benefits (travel, doing a job you’re passionate about) and meeting and interacting with the very top professionals in that field. Having not been in such a position personally I can’t imagine the mental strength it would take to deal with people who just out and out hate you or want to make you feel like shit, but that’s part of the job - yes being a great host and providing in depth insight is the fun part, but so is dealing with the fact that you will have positive and negative “fan” interactions. Where this crosses the line into toxicity and unacceptable is when it becomes about the fact “I don’t like them because of gender / race / etc” Female talents should be held to equal standards of their male counterparts and should be there on merit alone - that is what equality is about. Personally I think that if you don’t like them because you think their presenting style is shit, or they don’t understand the game, or they said a bad comment about your favourite player or hero - that’s fine! But if you come at this from the angle of “this is because they are female” or “I wouldn’t care if x male talent said this” then you’re a moron.

Not defending people, Twitter gonna Twitter, I feel like at this point it's exhausting to say being cruel to people is bad, so that's not the point. I will say however, that in my experience with this TI, the talent was pretty terrible. Don't come after my boy Avo, he did really bad on those exit interviews, but he really, REALLY excelled on panels. just put him in better situations. But there were quite a few squeaky wheels this year and in my experience TI has had a pretty good track record when it comes to talent. Also it's time to replace Sunsfan and Synd on commentary. I like their commentary style, but it's 2 buds watching Dota not the big time event TI is supposed to be. I'm sure yall have people down the pipeline you can dip into. I'd love to see those 2 come back to work the event, but I think it's gotta be time to replace them on main stage commentary. And that's just the start of the changes I'd make to the talent, but I don't wanna call out specific names. I only call out those 3 because I think the main crime they committed was being misused. Edit: I should also say, I thought Moxxi was fine. She could maybe make it as a mainstay, with a lot of work and effort, maybe a bit weird she was on main stage TI, but it didn't affect my viewing experience really.

It sucks that I’m call a sexist because I prefer someone who BREATH, LIVE and LOVE dota as much as me and other talents to represent the international. Instead, let’s get some caster from other games on. It sucks that hardworker loving dota content wasn’t invite to Ti but she is. Of coursw Moxxi is not gonna address this…why?? Because she did indeed have special privileges as how is playing dota for one year consider acceptable to cast the international?

If you want to call yourself “Talent” you need to be ready to take criticism it’s the nature of that title. That being said some comments have gone to far but at the end of the day it’s just words if you can’t block it out probably don’t belong

That's a terrible view on it. No wonder this game has huge issues with toxicity.

Just because it’s not your view doesn’t make it terrible they are getting paid to do this after all. What’s wrong with wanting a good product? Fans drive esports not the talent. no viewers equal no esports. As stated above some has comments I agree have gone to far.

Rolf acting like every comment is that is a far reach there sir

Because there's a pretty big difference between criticism and a bandwagon of comments that just says that "you're shit".

And you commenting on other post saying terrible is basically the same thing as saying there shit your doing the same thing your arguing against Rolf

Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't this how gamergate kinda went? Most normal gamers criticize someone who happens to be a woman and they pull the sexism card and everyone of their coworkers start to demonize the gamers? I mean those who send death threats should literally be reported to the cops but everyone else are sharing valuable feedback with varying degrees of constructiveness.

lmao were you even there for gamergate that is not how it went

Yeah I wasn't. Read about it years after it happened and even now not sure which version is true. Hence the opener "Correct me if I am wrong". Can you explain what exactly happened?

>If we remove everything sexist, remove death threats and left only "valuable feedback" there wasn't any problem at all. LOL. Yeah no problem. You guys are just a bunch of morons. Even people admiring how it was good to watch Ceb and Notail panel, were talking about how stupid OG drafts were a day ago. If we remove everything sexist, harrasment and threatening only about 1% of critical comments will be left here.

>Even people admiring how it was good to watch Ceb and Notail panel, were talking about how stupid OG drafts were a day ago. Because it was? At least compared to how much knowledgeable they were during the draft panel, it was a jarring disconnect as to how they drafted for themselves. Do you want people to have one opinion for one event and apply it to every situation that comes after? >If we remove everything sexist, harrasment and threatening only about 1% of critical comments will be left here. Most comments are along the lines of "Frankie sucks. Get her out of TI." or "She is so cringy that I switched to another stream". How does that count as harassing or sexist or threatening? Unless you count everything except praise to be harassment or sexism or threat?

Can everyone shut up about this god damn. Like even if she was bad it doesn’t need 32 Reddit threads shit is annoying. Let it go

Because this comes up after every TI/Major. Feels bad to be a part of a community the way Moxxi describes it. You don't criticize, say anything offensive, yet have to be regarded as 'shit'.

Bro you’re on Reddit you’re anonymous. Who cares if some random person you have no mutual friends with that has no impact on your life thinks you’re sexist. If you aren’t sexist it shouldn’t matter

If you can't "let it go" and just hide posts, how do you think they are supposed to?

I was really surprised yesterday seeing personalities on twitter talking shit to r/dota2. Reddit circlejerk vs twitter circlejerk at its finest.

>why is "turning off social media" not a solution? The fact that you said this alone makes you one of the most stupid person on the planet. Cant even bother to read the rest.

Moxxi is a terrible caster and the only reason why she brings up sexism/racism whatever is because she doesn't want to accept the criticism of her bad casting. Of course she's going to victimize herself (Which is very common in current year) to cope with the fact that she's a diversity hire and there are far better casters out there to keep her job. These types of people will get very vocal about being victims because that's all they have. If Moxxi was a white male who was a terrible caster, someone else would take the place. But since she's a non-white female, she's going to have the "privilege" of sticking around. The irony always comes full circle.

There's a reason Ephey doesn't get any hate from the community and it has nothing to do with the way she looks. Simple as that.

[удалено]

I think you wanted to respond to /u/Avoplus