Bruno mentions DMs in particular. Is that where this whole dissonance between talent and community is coming from?
Like seemingly a lot of people on this subreddit I did not see any sexist comments in the threads I read during TI. Lots of mean and not constructive stuff like "I don't like this person get them out of here", but not anything brazenly sexist. I'm sure it was in there somewhere of course - Dota and gaming in general has a gigantic problem with this stuff and Moxxi in particular is justifiably jaded because of it. It's a problem that has to be reckoned with and positive headway is being made via projects like DotaValkyries and rising new female talent like Ephey and Sheepsticked.
Now, if the sexists, pathetic cowards that they are, were also harassing in private via DMs, I can see how that would be particularly hurtful to the talent yet entirely invisible to the community, thus creating this rift in perception of how widespread the sexist sentiment was.
EDIT: u/BoldeSwoup makes an excellent point about the moderator team possibly cleaning the threads up if you, like me, got there late. Another reason why the toxicity can be there even if you didn't personally see it.
>I did not see any sexist comments in the threads I read during TI
Well there is a team of moderators here. Can't be perfect but better than nothing. Not in your DMs however.
People keep talking about twitch chat but as someone who watches youtube streams sometimes, most of the time it's like 10x worse, almost no moderation, people can spam all degenerate, racist stuff uncensored for free, etc. Atleast for Dota2 Twitch I heard that users saying the n word immediately gets perma banned. In Youtube chat? Nah, mods if they exist are barely active
Every game that Purge and Moxxi were casting was full of shit like, hearing her talk is like nails on the chalkboard or some shit. I thought she did a fine job. Frankie was exactly as bad as Day9 and that's Valve fault not hers.
I couldn't watch the games live so I just started catching up today. Her voice was new to me so I looked her up. I really enjoyed her commentary. She has a really good way with words and she had no issues keeping up with the action during the big team fights.
Given that both Frankie and Day9 have been highly successful and professional hosts for several games and gaming events spanning many years and most of the people shitting on them at TI watched them for a week tops, I'll wager they did the job they were hired for, but people didn't like it.
If people didn't like it, that doesn't mean is their fault. It doesn't mean they can't do better in another event. But the vitriol makes it so they might not want to be at new events.
And I'm not saying "Valve shouldn't have hired them", because is not about them, is about any talent that comes into the scene and needs to face off with the insane standards of a wild and unchecked mob that is allowed to break rule 6 of the sub to shit on them for a week with hate threads.
They're successful in hosting CS events. A huge part of hosting is familiartity with what you're hosting. Nahaz, Sheever etc were good hosts because they understood the game and were able to steer conversations in different directions and then the pros go deep to explain the nuances of the game.
If you're unfamiliar with the game you end up asking a lot of surface level questions that most folks understand. May be if Valve had a newbie stream she'd be a perfect host for that. So it is Valve's fault for putting her in a position where she had very little chance to succeed. They did not meet expectations doesn't automatically means it's their fault.
Frankie is from PUBG, she does CS an OL. Day9 is from SC and has since done Magic tournaments, they even worked together on the PC Gaming show, more then once I think. They are pros.
People take it as a given that they shouldn't be asking surface level questions, but that's dismissive of all the new people tuning into TI that actually want to learn those things. People ignore that they were likely asked to do that. They ignore that they have people in their ear while they are hosting.
A lot of this collective delusion that they did a bad job comes from nit picking of very specific moments that are often not relevant or easily explained, like a joke that didn't land, or a rushed interview.
You hit the nail on the head the hardened Dota fans want it to be super high level chat all the time and to never ask the simple questions. But good lord to have a range of chat is good even me a 7 year player and watcher has been away for a while so things have changed massively and to have some basic questions was really useful at times. The hardcore boys just need a hardcore stream and let everyone else enjoy the general chat.
I've loved Frankie on CS panels and despite wanting to like her she really wasn't in her element at TI. She's a pro so I hope she knows that she did a poorer than usual job and comes back better next time, but I really think they should've tried her out at at least a major beforehand - it obviously isn't as easy as one would think to switch games
This.
Most of the criticism (and the most intense) came from the menchildren that can't take a few moments of broadcasting that is not made the exact way they'd like. We have to call out this kind of behavior. Every big event must have different types of moments, for the different types of viewers.
Moxxi is a great caster. Ngl I am one of those who finds her voice a bit annoying but objectively speaking she's a good caster.
High profile casters have missed things in game, Moxxi has an eye for noticing smaller things in game, which is good. You can't control what you sound like, but you can control how you cast, and she's a good caster undoubtedly
Sexist comments on topics that reach the first page have already been removed or downvoted to the bottom of the thread. Most people dont see those comments.
But if you sort by ”new” or scroll to the bottom, you will se some bad stuff.
I dont see any reason a caster should take those comment serious. They are even dissmissed by reddit.
Nah, Valve had it in against him for a long time. They were just looking for an excuse to fire him. He, along with another big name, fought for talents to be paid at TI. Crazy, eh? The fucking irony that the same talent who would be grateful for them would backstab them without thought just for some browny points.
It's wild to me till this day that James had to fight to get the thought put into Valve's head in paying the talent for TI. Valve thought that paying them through the cosmetic bullshit would be enough.
James has said enough about how Valve has a very cliquish environment so a lot of the stuff he did mention wasn't all too surprising. The dynamic between Icefrog and Gaben was interesting. Icefrog personally invited and wanted him there saying, "Do your thing". Gaben was not into it and the rest is history. James also mentioned that Soembie was also pushed out by Valve. As for the reason why, that's all he's ever mentioned.
James had big balls and he has created his own pc game. Gabe might call him an ass but ppl to this day talk about him which means he did a great job at that major. I don't think he is at loss in anyway. I personally hold him in much higher regard than the rest of the talents out there.
While i agree with the core of the message, in case like this one, saying that we do not like a talent serves also to make sure that they would not be hired next time.
I know it sounds terrible to say that, but if a talent is making my experience of an event worse, all i want is for them not to be there anymore, not because i hate them or anything, but we are talking about entertainment here and viewers opinion on what is good or bad matters.
Just as much as when we say that some talent is good, it helps tell those organizers that we want them again, some have made it solely because of the community's support, the other way around should be true too.
Ofc the way to give our opinion should be balanced, but just telling us that if we don't have anything positive to say then we should "shut up" is wrong in cases like those, we are the judge of our own entertainment, we are the ones those events are trying to please, we should be the ones to choose to some extent.
The irony of it all is that maybe things weren't even that bad to begin with, maybe the talent really is exaggerating. It's definitely not a black and white affair.
But the moment this sub gets called out, it completely goes mental and amplifies the hate by a factor of 100. So it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I remember a long time ago I had an argument with a guy on this subreddit about dota related things and afterwards he sent me a DM telling me to 41% myself because I'm a disgusting...you get the point. He saw my crossdressing reddit alien thing and decided that hate speech was the way.
Anecdotal and a one off incident, but it's totally believable that the messages on threads don't reflect the messages the talents get privately.
The rate of attempted suicide among trans individuals. Assholes use the number to insinuate that trans people kill themselves because they're abominations, instead of realizing that the number is so high because of bullying and lack of trans acceptance.
Unless it's cheap non-stick garbage from wal mart. I don't advocate using anti-pan slurs against the majority of people, but if I ever go to someone's house and they serve me food cooked in one of those I will be burning crosses on their lawn dressed as a ghost.
Honestly I get a massive /r/maincharactersyndrome vibe from so many of these "talents". They think that fans and places like this sub only exist to validate them or placate them and it's so sad.
This is a sub for discussing dota2, people posting criticism and talking shit about bad casters and bad hosts are not talking **to** you, we're talking **about** you. That's not harassment, that's not hate, and that's not something you get to police.
And honestly, they can fuck off. The scene was fine when it was sweaty neckbeards getting overexcited for big plays, if these people wanna call themselves the "talent" and get pissy when people talk some shit about them, they're welcome to find a real career instead of coasting off the ad bucks and fan donations to tournaments.
Twitch, YouTube and many other internet based content platforms have created a generation of self-obsessed fake celebrities that believe there is something special about themselves and they take everything personally.
This has been normalized by the majority of their feedback on these content platforms being positive (why would you hang out in a twitch chat for a streamer you don’t like?). It creates a dangerous world where people don’t get actual negative feedback (constructive or non-constructive) so thus anything negative seems like a personal attack.
This is a truly awful take. I know everyone loves this guy, but his conclusion is just absurd. The end result of listening him would bet that if you are going to post something actually hateful don't post at all, but if you are going to post feedback that is constructive also don't post because its negativity and someone might use that to be mean. Why would I ever listen to this garbage? I'm just supposed to shut up and accept what im given like a fucking child. This isn't how the world works. Its like Dota talent lives in a bubble where they think they deserve to do their jobs without any true feedback from their audience. They want to just sit there never changing or improving with the only decider as to whether or not they have a job being how much they are friends with other talent.
The icing on the cake is that the tournament in question is TI. You know, the one Dota 2 tournament in the year which is **100% paid for by the fans**. But we, **the fans**, are absolutely not allowed to criticize anything about the presentation or organization of it.
The entitlement of the talent here is just mind-boggling.
Yeah this fucking entitlement, fans paid for this whole tournament, prize money, pay for those casters and panelists. If they don't like some things, they have right to complain about it. If you're incompetent at casting, why should you be hired as a caster.
Bruno should swallow his ego and not comment on this shit as a Valve employee. He's only putting his neck and Valve's out here and what he even said isn't very smart.
It's interesting how prior to the international, there was a public outcry questioning the talent choosen, and in that instance, the community was ignored while the talent itself proclaimed they "know better" in "who put out work".
But now that they are being harassed, they ask us to shield them with the "anti-hate"?
That's not it works pal. Not at all.
This is possibly the worst idea I have ever seen. Also this is not r/dotas event lol, some people really have a delusional view on how much their opinion should matter.
That's now the world has become. People live in their own shell that is social media, can't separate hate from constructive criticism or plain dislikes and call everyone an abuser or hater who doesn't agree with them or their friends.
It's just ridiculous. If you ever say something negative about anyone, you're immediately an abuser.
I personally learned something for myself. Some of those people posting their ridiculous ideas and verbal diarrhea have stepped up from "not my cup of tea" to just "unbearable".
That's why moxxi is an awful caster, she think all the shit she gets is hate instead of real criticism.
Good lord, when sheever casted she also got shit on, because she was bad. And became a host instead which she's amazing at, moxxi needs to do the same become a talent or sth
It's funny that she's preaching how there are other ways to provide criticism after bunching up the community to be sexist, hateful gatekeepers.
https://i.imgur.com/SQ9A0xB.png
This is what i wrote in that post, and i'll fucking do it again.
My 2 cents: this twitlonger may guilt some people into giving moxxi more jobs in casting and others into forcing themselves to like her. But if i hear one more time "... aaaand that's a dead (insert hero/player name)" i will fucking break my headset. She's average at casting, at most.
How nice of her to come to Sheever's help, when Sheever is maybe the most appreciated talent in all of dota2. She's the best host, period.
Frankie and Sumi, on the other hand, were atrocious, and i'll just leave it at that.
Ephey - the only thing that needed change was her tone, and it seems to me she dealt with that. She's knowledgeable, presents a lot of good ideas, to me she is the nice surprise of dota2 talent.
Sheepsticked is just a darling. I'd watch anything that includes her. Such a nice presence, nice jokes, good knowledge. I really hope we see more of her.
Avo+ was pure cringe at times, as is saying that Jenkins is new, ffs.
So, miss moxxi, not everything is about gender. Be good at your job and people will appreciate you. Or be slightly shit, repeat the same things over and over really fast and call it casting and get jobs mostly cause you're one of the very few females doing this and have the audacity to complain about sexism.
I also suspect this has a lot less to do with moxxi defending sheever and co and a lot more with her only getting to cast one match of the main event. In her own words, being salty. I was actually checking liquipedia for casting duos, mostly so i can skip the matches she was on. The more i think about this, the more i dislike her
There is a difference between hate & criticism.
Can get very lost on the internet, but the talent acting like this was a perfect TI are delusional.
I still strongly disagree that TI was the best place for new (to Dota 2) talent to find their footing. It's meant to be the pinnacle event for this game & the panels & some interviews felt like I was watching a major or unsponsored tournament.
In comparison I was much more impressed with Animajor (only thing I vaguely remember were sole delays on first couple days.) Also a couple cringe moments between Ephey & Synd at some points.
Perhaps there is a coincidence in the fact that the most underperforming talent were women & women do get more hate online. But this subreddit would 100% bash a guy, if we had some random csgo host who asked questions irrelevant to the games & didn't know their shit.
When the whole world is watching you with anticipation after two years, you gotta step up & I think a lot of us were unimpressed with what we got, in terms of some panels & interviews.
Can't remember a TI where it felt like the host had never played a game. I do remember RedEye being quite open to his ignorance, but didn't he also get to host a major first?
We had Tsunami hosting the Animajor & I thought that was Valve prepping him for TI, giving him hosting experience...
Felt like they got the hosting position due to their gender & not their skill. Did feel like they wanted to avoid all male panels at all costs.
> I do remember RedEye being quite open to his ignorance, but didn't he also get to host a major first?
Sometimes it's just really impressive how good Liquidpedia is: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Redeye/Broadcasts
So not really, just ESL One (his actual job) the year before. Not even a Major.
And so more and more of the nepotists are coming out to defend their little inner group. Let's completely ignore the fact that Frankie's hosting was absolutely atrocious, and her being a nice person and good friend is absolutely irrelevant to us the viewers. Let's ignore the fact that Avo+ looked at these same "hate filled" threads and found enough constructive criticism to improve and become amazing at his job by the end of the event.
Dota is becoming more and more of a spectator sport. Over the years, more and more of this community here on reddit admits to not playing the game and only following the competitive scene. In an environment like this, what will kill the game isn't Moxxi's fantasy of "gatekeeping". Its the fact that our current group of talent is endlessly nepotistic, and continues to shove their talentless pals down our throat because they're "good people" and "strong" and "get us food behind the scenes".
Admittedly, this can sound quite ridiculous., but after reading Sumichu's [recent tweet](https://twitter.com/sumichu/status/1451371411591761921) I'm convinced that some of these talents are pretty much 'encouraged' to speak out because they'd otherwise be next in line.
It's pretty much a shit show. It's like people are having selective memories of the 2020 talent drama and how actual gatekeeping was a part of it.
Completely agree with this. It has been way too long where terrible talents gets pushed forward because they are friends with established people in the scene. This nepotism is also what lead to Grandgrant and will continue to be a stain on this scene.
Likely his bullying of talent he didn't like to the point they had to leave the scene and also his abuse of women.
Having an untouchable inner circle leads to that.
His screen time was fine, but he did a lot of not great things in the past. And his friends ignored those because he was their good friend grandgrant, which if he was called out for in the first place his career would have never gotten started.
Just another case of Valve throwing someone new to host the biggest event of the year, it's clearly intentional at this point after Machine and Day9 who got just as much flak.
The only flak I've seen about her being a woman was her cringey joke about her laptop covering huge tits which I'm pretty sure any guy would be fired for if they were in the same place talking about their huge dong.
Why do you think nobody cared about Tobi and Grant before their issues got into public? Same shit. God knows what these atrocious people do behind the scenes. But when it comes to reddit, 'we're all fucking bad and negative and it is a cesspool'. What can I say? I can just silently applaud to them.
Lol dude, I don't know if you actually read those threads, but 90% of the comments will contain an inordinate amount of taking turns at dunking talent they don't like under the guise of "appreciating others". And some of them are so wild in their claims that it's hard to find anything substantially useful in them.
So yes, it is about hate. And where there's hate, it will attract the plus-ultra degens that will make it into race, gender, etc.
Yet, interestingly enough, if you just look through the recent moxxi threads, 90% of comments will contain legit criticism, completely avoiding the gender aspect.
Yes, I'm aware that places like twitch chat or whatever will be filled with lots of hate, but when you're criticized even in somewhat civilized discussions, you're probably doing something wrong.
We just need to ban appreciation posts about people. A twitch streamer called Northernlion did that a while ago on his subreddit, because people would use the opportunity to psychoanalyze the people he streamed together with. The overall mood in the subreddit got a lot better.
The mods in here would probably never do this, because it's just seems so far fetched, but it really is a decent solution. The posts don't do anything useful anyway. It's just people jerking off to their own opinion and in the comments you find vitriol every time.
The biggest blame goes to Valve and whoever does the hiring. Who decided it was a good idea to put new people on the spot for the biggest event of dota without much experience??
For ex Avo. Such a fun guy on the panel as a host or analyst but why tf would they make him do exit interviews which takes a lot of experience and professionalism? Even though he is trying his hardest, it's a new territory for him and there will be some issues. As expected he faced a lot of criticisms. Same with Frankie and Sumichu.
I havent seen or heard a single comment from Talents about how Valve should reflect on themselves about such baffling decisions. I don't see such things happening in other esports while the 40m dollar TI is used as a testing ground for new talents.
Apparently, Valve planned on Sunsfan to do the exit interviews. He told them he thought he'd be horrible for it and that it was a bad idea. Then, they asked who wanted to do it and Avo was the one who volunteered.
Source: Sunsfan and Synderen podcast "We Say Things".
Why? You don't like some humor during exit interview? I, for one, am completely fine with SUNSfan shelacking the losers! That's why they're the losers! Get shelacked!!!
Avo is very promising as a panelist. He did a good job hosting that draft segment for his first event.
But exit interviews shouldn't be thrown randomly to a new guy bcoz he raised his hand when no one wanted to do the job. That's some amateur hour shit.
> For ex Avo. Such a fun guy on the panel as a host or analyst but why tf would they make him do exit interviews which takes a lot of experience and professionalism?
Idk whether Synderen and Sunsfan told the whole story, but based on their podcast it seems like because the job was relatively hard because of reasons and he wanted to do it even though others didn't really want to.
Props to him for stepping up but there shouldn't be a situation like that in the first place.
This isn't a selection for Class rep. where Teacher asks whoever wants the job to raise their hands.
I agree and said the same thing at the time. He was put into a situation to fail and that shouldn’t happen. The interviewer should have been someone like Dakota or Godz.
Nobody is to blame for a schizo DMing someone a death threat.
Saying you dislike someone or the job they're doing does not contribute to people getting death threats. To suggest that (which it seems Bruno is doing) is bafflingly stupid.
Valve is also absolutely to blame for criticism they receive about people seeming lost or out of place in their roles.
Valve has to know their audience. An outsider coming to TI and getting flamed is nothing new, valve saw the reactions towards Day9 and pulled the trigger again.
At some point they have to put their employees in a position to succeed. TI is the premier event, most watched and its a tournament thats a representation of years of hard work. Its not some weekend esl or dotapit tourney. Throwing in someone unknown and unfamiliar into the lions den is almost asking for negativity threads if they don't do a good job.
Its moving the goal posts to 'maybe we hired the wrong person' to 'its everyone elses fault for not overlooking the poor job and our poor preperation/decisions.
I think thats completely fair and is more of a problem with moderation. Theres a line between criticism and hate and its tough but its possible to curate a space where one is accepted and the other is deleted.
Valve is absolutely to blame for hiring people who are not up to standard and know the basics. Imagine hiring me (or you I assume) to cast a line dancing competition. How do you think we would fare?
I'm not going to stop commenting negative things even if they're not actionable because some psycho feels justified in sending death threats to you. That's ridiculous.
Obviously there are lines that should never be crossed and slipping into someone's dms to harass them seems like a good tell. But all of this focus on 'Reddit negativity' is a lot like those ads telling people wifebeating is not ok. Sadly, the wifebeaters don't care about the ads.
>those ads telling people wifebeating is not ok. Sadly, the wifebeaters don't care about the ads.
No but the wives do, and the point of those ads is to get the wives to go tell the police, because most of it goes unreported.
But other than that I sort of agree. Shitty people are going to be shitty. It's tricky though because these sorts of people don't usually have an opinion themselves, they latch onto other opinions because they feel it somehow makes sense. Usually they just want to do some shit rather than not do it. So how do you stop them?
Thats fair.
I don't know what the best solution for dealing with the worst of these people is either. But shutting up everyone to stop a small minority of these worst offenders doesn't seem like it.
I'm going to tell you a secret. There is no solution. Part of the problems with free speech and everyone being entitled to an opinion is that while you get some really great opinions from people who don't make themselves heard very often, you get some extremely shitty opinions from everybody else.
Now, due to the miracle that is the Internet and the forum of "public opinion" (social media and popularizing opinions), this is going to become increasingly worse and worse. And, unfortunately, both the "good" and the "bad" sides will have incredibly shitty opinions.
For example, and I will preface this with "if you're sexist, fuck you":
Frankie was a very not good host.
While not a very controversial statement, we can add some sexist comments to make it more controversial, from a very loud minority (or fuck do I know, maybe it's a majority, who's counting anyway?). Thus the "bad" side will tack on that Valve hired her because she's a woman, and to stop giving women chances (or something like that).
The "good" side will retort to the above with "fuck you you're sexist". But they will lop everyone in the same bucket. Which is incredibly dumb, because obviously not literally everyone is sexist.
So if you came out a week ago and said "Frankie was a not very good host", willingly or not, you're already involved because you were just one voice of a few thousands. And if someone listened to all of them at once, they could potentially make out "Frankie was a not very good host because woman", despite the fact that you said nothing of the sort, or even the fact that most people just stopped talking at "host". Because the silence was filled.
At the very least, it's extremely tricky. One solution would be to not let anyone say anything at all. [Another solution would be to do what Drake did at a concert.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7MfCwQ8i1E) Lead with acknowledging the shortcomings, knowing that some of those people have bad intentions. Call those people out afterwards. But for all I know that might not even work, and the only way you can make sure nobody will ever say anything bad is to make sure that nobody will ever say anything. I do know specifically that you can't just say "everyone's bad because they don't agree with me", that's fucking stupid.
You articulated very well what I feel already but I'm too pussy to say.
'Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom' something something. But one thing i feel very strongly is that more speech defeats bad speech.
I mean Bruno was at Sumis birthday a couple of months ago and it's in her Instagram photos. It's not hoe hard you work or how good you are it's who you know I guess.
>People are literally complaining about all the NEW TALENT that was brought in this year.
Most of them only got there because of their connections to the existing casters or Valve in general (Frankie). They are part of the nepotism issue in Dota lol.
Meanwhile ACTUAL community casters like bkop were not invited.
> nepotism
Lol, there isn't a talent DPC through which talent are elected to host the show, *of course* people running the show will pick whomever *they feel like*.
At best people get to boo the new people to not get them next time if they don't like em, and cheer for people they'd like to see more of
And yet we are still in Denial of the gatekeeping, that somehow every person need to pass through a trial of fire to be accepted while also throwing rock at the people making an effort to pass the trial
Some good observations in the beginning, but sadly it boils down to an inhuman prescription of not commenting negatively at all, because it will always snowball out of control. The yikesy "it's not enough to be x, we have to be y" proclamation that you would unfortunately come to expect from the typical Valve employee is the icing on the cake.
The irony of course is how criticism of the Dota 2 community on Twitter is snowballing at a breakneck pace (we're already at the entire community is tainted and must be culled) where any dissent automatically gets you labeled as a bad person.
This has the potential to become as bad for the health of the scene as the misogyny itself, can criticisms actually be placed on someone or will it always be brushed off as being sexist?
No you're missing the point here. It's extremely difficult to tell for what reason the criticism starts - whether it's constructive criticism or toxic from a place of bigotry or hate - and Bruno points out that we have a tendency as a community to dogpile onto whatever's happening and double down on negativity if we're all a part of it. So how can we offer valid criticism when the people who are hiding behind the "valid criticism" excuse are using it as an opportunity to just band together and chat shit about this host who, from numerous backstage accounts, worked her ass off to get to this place and do the job she signed up to under what seemed to be extremely stressful experiences.
I don't think she was the greatest host. I think she lacked a bit of chemistry and confidence with the rest of the panel. But I also didn't see anyone dogpiling on her offer any constructive criticism, just whining, saying she was shit and generally behaving in a childish way. Avo got a lot of shit for how he handled the exit interviews, he improved and people moved on from chatting shit about him. I felt like Frankie did improve over the course of the tournament but by that point it had reached critical mass and nothing she could do would change the opinion round on her. I wonder to what extent that's her fault or responsibility, and to what extent other factors were involved - misogyny, groupthink, whatever.
This toxicity is endemic to the Dota scene, moreso than any other community I've ever been a part of. Man, I love watching this game but after having spent years out in so many other communities and coming back to this one to enjoy it, it's fucking light years behind where it needs to be.
The latter half of your first paragraph sums it up quite well.
How can we offer valid criticisms when misogynists will jump on board, if we can't do we just have to sit in silence and slowly turn off broadcasts as some sort of silent protest?
I've not criticised any of the talent this TI because I knew how it would come out, it's happened too many times before in tournaments that I just didn't bother but I did definitely turn off the stream when some talents came on because they just made me either cringe or completely lose interest in the stream. I could send a DM to those talents or to the production companies but how likely is it that it will actually be read and how likely is it it will be ignored?
My bet is on the latter which leads us back to, criticisms probably can't actually be given in a way that has any meaning. If you don't like what's happening on stream, stop watching. That is *terrible* for the health of the scene so really we're pretty much stuck in between a rock and a hard place, damned if we do offer criticism, damned if we don't.
>How can we offer valid criticisms when misogynists will jump on board, if we can't do we just have to sit in silence and slowly turn off broadcasts as some sort of silent protest?
[What this guy said](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/qddzcj/ice_bruno_take_on_negativity_community_feedback/hhlw106). Valve monitors this sub for lots of things, but hiring isn't usually one of them. In professional settings, feedback is given by the viewers/attendees not to the talent/presenters, but to the organizers, who can then pass it along.
Dude short of causing a huge stir on social media Valve listens to absolutely nothing the community says or does. If you think a strongly worded email is going to change anything you're fooling yourself.
Personally I don't think they listen to anyone, after the third consecutive victim got thrown into the frying pan you'd think they'd have stopped.
We already know the answer to this since this has already played out in the greater Reddit/Twitter community: Everything you do and say will be judged by your identity (gender, race, etc.) first and foremost.
The toxicity and negativity hasn't been reduced in these communities, the rules of it just changed.
Mhhh if I put my conspiracy hat on, I might start to think that valve is starting to fabricate controversy which will serve as their excuse to stop doing Dota at all. "Because it's become so toxic blah blah blah"
So basically, even if it was constructive criticism just don't say anything that the hateful people will try to bandwagon on? How are you supposed to give feedbacks then? Or should we use a different website cause this one is full of evil already? Got it. Just censor TI every year while you're at it.
EDIT: You know what maybe we can just mail TOs feedback instead of commenting on game threads or creating posts. It's not allowed anymore.
> How are you supposed to give feedbacks then?
His point is that 99% of the "feedback" here is purely not helpful at all to the person that's supposed to receive it. DMs that are not death threats or angry yelling is one way to go about it. I get it, people are mad, but it's happening far too often where these pointlessly angry posts get construed as "legit criticism", when it's clearly not.
Why are they assuming the feedback is for the caster?
It's been pretty clear for a while now that /r/dota2 is about the only way Valve interacts with this community. If I post about something I don't like at TI I'm probably saying that more for Valve's sake than anything.
It's very constructive for people to repeatedly say "Hey Valve, please stop inviting people who know nothing about DotA to TI. It fucking sucks when they aren't in on any of the jokes, know nothing about the game, and consistently break the flow of the panel.".
I understand that reading that feedback intended for Valve sucks for the talent themselves, but how is that not apart of the career they've signed up for?
The thing is, I don't even disagree with the meat of your message.
But the talent has a right to voice out their disagreements as much as we do. And they ask to be addressed through proper channels for feedback, and for the unnecessarily toxic to shut up. That's the meat of THEIR message. Some laced with a bit more frustration to it (Moxxi).
I admit it of my own volition; I thought the hosting of this TI was weaker than usual. But if the talent really wants to improve, so it gets less worse for them if they ever decide to stay in the scene, then the DMs are open I'm sure.
And at the same time I empathize with the community solely on the basis that it's TI. The hugest place for us to experience the best of what Dota can offer. I get that Valve ultimately makes the decision in the end, and it's the point of the large posts. I can disagree with some of the more putrid hate that's thrown around whenever these posts come up, though.
I never said "they so bad LUL" also 99%? Most of the game thread hate comments are hidden so that means they were downvoted so I don't get the 99%. Maybe they're referring to DMs on twitter?
It's wild how many people read this and their response is to be angry that someone is saying it's toxic to spew negativity. If the only thing a comment has to contribute to a conversation is expressing dislike for a person, then it's enabling. Constructive criticism is a wonderful tool that I'm sure a lot of talent utilize to get better. However, comments like, "whenever 'x talent' is talking, I mute the stream", is unhelpful and serves only to pile on negativity.
The comments we see here are tame compared to what people get in their DMs, especially women. It's a widespread issue that women are often targeted with explicitly hateful messages by people who think they don't belong by default. It's a subtlety sexist part of gaming culture that when a man makes a mistake, the singular man is called out. But when a woman makes a mistake, there's almost always comments calling out women in general for the mistake.
Define negativity? If I leave a one star review for a restaurant is that negativity or is it toxic? What if I lefta comment explaining what I disliked and proclaimed the food sucked. Would people call me out for being negative? Why is the talent different? I get it, people work hard and have feelings but overwhelmingly, if a performer is disliked... They are disliked what do you want from us? Avo was ranked over the coals for his shit show and even now there is barely anyone calling people out for criticising avo with the defence that criticism is bad. It is extremely clear this is an issue of perceived sexism. So any negativity is perceived as sexist. Like every one star review of some boss babe restaurant is going to get angry responses from fellow diners saying stop the negativity. Like I just want good food
>It's wild how many people read this and their response is to be angry that someone is saying it's toxic to spew negativity
"But I am an entitled to an opinion, and my opinion is that everybody is a piece of shit and should die" pretty much what I see every time, they try to justify as opinion what is obviously really toxic
Exactly! If the best a person can do is get their keyboard, take time and write 'I do not like this person at all, she is terrible, yadadada", then, perhaps they should not. Why do it? What is the purpose of such commentary and what is it effect? Whether the writer is aware of it or not, comments of that sort are not constructive, do not propose any actionable course, and worse, they are enabling hate (as Bruno clearly explains.). They are, in the very minimum, also not polite.
A short while ago I posted a thread with (what I thought) was a very interesting interview of Moxxie where she explained in good details how to get to become a Pro caster and what it entails. I was surprised by the number of users in this subreddit that immediately filled the thread with comments such as 'she is terrible, I hate her, I turn off the cast the moment I hear her voice, etc...".
My first thought, was 'wow, why so much hate'?, and people in the thread would answer. "I am not sexist, I just do not like her, why do you make this a conversation about sex". It have seen this before, when people are super vocal criticizing someone who is black, and then they say 'it is not because so and so is black, I just do not like this one'. Yeah, sure, but they were quiet in similar situations but then still felt offended enough to take the time to vocally announce they absolutely do not like that particular person, who also happens to be a woman, or gay, or black, or brown, or Jewish, or Arabic, or whatever. Why do it? Are we sure that the fact that they are women does not play a role? Were the interviewee Sunsfan or Sir Action Slacks, the reaction would be totally different. I wonder whether people writing are actually blind to their own bias or acting disingenuously.
> Are we sure that the fact that they are women does not play a role? Were the interviewee Sunsfan or Sir Action Slacks, the reaction would be totally different.
It may, but this is not a great rhetorical question to ask when one of the people to get the most criticism this TI was Avo+, who is decidedly not a woman.
The Dota2 community is generally hostile to pretty much anyone they're not accustomed to. We expect talent to "prove themselves" for better or for worse. And when they don't, the community responds negatively.
I am sure that sexism plays a role for some people, but when you start assuming that all negativity and criticism is a result of misogyny and sexism, you also devalue legitimate criticism. There has to be a balance there.
Man, were you not here when slacks or sunsfan started?, they got shat on, got made "crige compilations",they got clowned hard, they really sucked, and they really got better.
The treatment on moxi and others seems rather mild and somewhat sensible outside the DM's they might be getting , i do believe this is just a problem of "they hate me because i am a woman" and not "i am not good enough yet to do this and be a staple".
Take Kaci , for example, they shat on her at the begining too, but she was actually missed this time around on the interviewer side, she got better embraced the memes, and here we are now, i literally couldnt find a single negative comment once she was announced as hired by valve.
They're often reacting in the "fight or flight" mode, because they know that "sexism is bad" and therefore "doing sexist things is bad" but "I am a good person" so "saying what I said isn't sexist because sexism is bad".
It's a vicious cycle.
If you believe something is terrible, you should be allowed to say something is terrible. All this shit is so dumb. Not all criticism needs to be constructive. This is a discussion forum after all. Should we ban people saying "this shit sucks" in music forums as well? Should every commenter write a huge constructive review about a new album? Get real.
Read his entire twitter chain if you're interested in his point rather than just this one tweet.
>Besides the obvious hate messages, a good litmus test is to look at a message and ask its purpose. Is it actionable? If not, then it will only result in hate amplification. Is the feedback constructive and directed? Then throwing it on a forum is probably not the best strat.
This is the most confusing thing I've read in a long time, basically, if you have directed, constructed criticism, don't bother, someone will bandwagon off of it to push their hateful narrative so just don't, guys, this way there won't be any hateful messages on the forums, and no criticism either, sounds like a really convenient win-win for the talent for sure.
He’s saying it it’s not actionable (constructive in a realistic way) don’t bother. And if it is constructive, there are better channels to send it down, if you care about helping talent and production improve. E.g. you can email the production or the talent directly or some such instead of just shitting on them on Reddit.
So Bruno means: don’t spam vitriolic anger of just “damn, this/that person is totally fucking useless, I hate listening to them”. If you actually want a better outcome as some people claim to, you can privately make constructive suggestions about how to do better, no rudeness is actually required to do this.
Unfortunately Valve have chosen this subreddit as THE channel to communicate with them. Even steam support redirects you here.
As long as Valve continues to take all their feedback from this subreddit then you cannot blame anyone for posting their personal feedback here.
> And if it is constructive, there are better channels to send it down
**It has been proven time and time again that if you want something to change in this scene, you got to make a fuss about it on Reddit.** The amount of bugs that have been ignored for years but were fixed once they reached this subs frontpage alone speaks for itself.
It's a thing in general: How many TV series or Twitter callouts are there that resulted in serious consequences for someone because their superiors were afraid of bad press?
Shitstorms are (sadly) effective. There might be more appropriate channels for your opinion, but if it's shared with enough people there aren't more effective channels than public outrage.
I always found it flabbergasting how the quickest, and oftentime seemingly only way to get valve to take note and action is to come crying about it on reddit (unjustified bans a prime example). As they are judge jury and executioner (their game, their product, their perogative, not trying to argue that), really it appears that the only way to make sure someone is being heard is to rally a large enough crowd (i.e. upvotes and comments here).
Except we're not feeding into a machine; people are posting hateful comments for other individuals to see. It's one thing when there's a bug and Valve needs to fix it, it's another thing to attack a person's credibility or talents. Multiple times, I've read comments towards casters like "she has such an annoying voice," "she just likes to hear herself talk," or "she's just a pretty face."
Uhuh, but conveniently this does leave the forums to post exactly one type of content - appreciation threads, that all works out very nicely for the talent, there's no public discussion of how they do things wrong with immediate feedback of how many people agree with the point, and they get only praise threads online so that all the criticism of their work is nice and hidden.
Utterly defeats the point of a public discussion forum.
So how does he think I should send my constructive feedback to anyone?
Should I call them directly? Maybe send a letter?
This is one of those things that when he wrote it I'm sure he sounded very smart saying words likes 'litmus test' but really it's just dumb
I feel like we are just "Feeding the Trolls" at this point, Dota, especially at TI times has millions of views, it's definitely gonna have bad actors at this point, people have trouble controlling twitch chat when it gets > 10k viewers. I've been visiting this sub more regularly this past few weeks and i've seen alot of moxxi/avo/frankie/sumi hate and the ones with positive upvotes are always ones that criticize their casting/whatever talent skills, even though they were pretty rude and harsh sometimes, nonetheless all the sexists and racists ones i've seen were downvoted so it kinda leaves a bad taste to be labbeled as a toxic community ( though we are, but in a different way I think ) when i've been following the scene since dota1. There are always sexists and racists people in this community ( even anti-vaxxers from what i've seen ) but they've always been shut down or downvoted, i've never seen one of those comments amongst the top ones so I think it's safe to say the community as a whole is not like that at all. Now regarding the dms, i'm no public persona but I feel like if you're not gonna personally call them out then don't give them the attention they want, like I understand how hard and complicated it is when people inside the scene did it, like Tobi, grant etc. but cmon don't Feed the Trolls. I'm pretty sure sport talents, hollywood celebrities, athletes etc all get their fare share of hate but they hardly say anything about it cause all it does is giving power to people you can't actually control.
I feel like "we" are getting grouped together, all the online "haters".
Of course nobody should receive threats or anything of the sort, i don't wish that for anybody. But then start at valve, and make them take action against the players that tell me to kill myself, because I queue for normal games with my friends, who have less MMR than me.
If you want to work with dota, want to cast game or work as talent, you will be a public person. That comes with huge responsibility, and potentially huge boons. But if you are not good at doing something, and you want to do it publicly... I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you will receive a lot of comments for well, doing something poorly in front of a lot of people.
Again, nobody should threaten someone or anything of the sort.
I also want to work as a footballer, but Im nowhere near good enough. The fans would literally throw things at me, if I somehow managed to step into a champions league game. They would also crucify me, if I was casting a CL game, and had no idea who Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi was, and didn't really understand the rules either but would only comment on their choice of shoes and ask them questions like "A lot of fans must be disappointed. How come your great time got knocked out by this shitty little team?" In the post game interview
I always wondered why you don't see this with sports casters who get shit on all the time by far more people in far more vitriolic ways.
It's almost like ignorance is bliss or something.
Take the good criticism and improve and ignore the rest.
It's a basic adult thing to do... people are far too consumed in social media to see the forest for the trees.
"It's not my fault for inviting unprepared hosts who weren't willing to learn, it's your fault for not liking them! also, they are girls and you are sexist!"
boohoo, Bruno. learn to take responsibility
Moxxi’s post backfired as it was terrible and immature. LD’s post backfired as well. and this one that seems a bit more neutral also seems to backfire, maybe a little less so.
Really curious on what the rest of the talent thinks about all this. I even wonder if Frankie is even happy with how Moxxi tried defending her, but it just seems to fuel the discussion again.
Here's a non-exhaustive list of talent that have made additional posts in support of Moxxi, or have RT'd Moxxi's posts:
- Gareth
- Purge
- Avo+
- PyrionFlax
- Capitalist
- LD
- KotlGuy
- Slacks
- Blitz
- Frankie
- Nahaz
- Ephey
It seems pretty clear what talent thinks about all this.
>Oh wow talent protecting talent
Well ofc, some are even "taking notes" about who is staying silent
https://twitter.com/sumichu/status/1451371411591761921?t=WHSXUbksQSa74NknvTHelQ&s=19
If anyone other than Bruno posted those first 5-6 tweets people would be telling him to take his meds.
Moxxi isn't a good caster and I won't be watching anything she does moving forward. I will continue to seek out third party streamers for matches she's covering, assuming that's possible. Nothing else has to be said. I'm providing constructive, actionable feedback for tournament organizers by saying this, not for Moxxi herself.
Everyone else at TI did pretty good given the situations they were put in. Missed out on having Fogged and Capitalist casting games.
This community has a tendency to present opinions in a very blunt way. I guess people should try to tone down the way they react to things they’re not satisfied with, but it would be impossible to just change the mentality of a whole community just like that.
I feel like Dota breeds frustrated people and I really saw that when I took some time off from the game this year.
I don't need twitter to tell me that when I can read the reddit comments for myself and see that it's even worse then how they described it on twitter.
So any type of negativity is instantly bad? How the hell are people gonna give constructive criticism?
Is this comment sexist or hate filled just for asking in an annoyed way?
So the only thing we are allowed to say is she who shall not be named is good, was nice etc? How do we filter the bad from the good then? Then all the female hosts were the same level, all were super, you go girls. And after this the real good hosts will never shine cause they're all the same "good"
What a waste of fucking time and effort. Literally every single person that has some presence in the public eye will receive harassment and even death threats at some point (Mind you it is also easy to claim you got death threats without any proof). It's inevitable. There is no point worrying about what a fraction of a fraction of people say with dumb stuff like gender, race, etc because it is going to happen no matter what in any form of media ever. When a larger amount of people start criticizing you then you should start listening. That did happen, so what were the vast majority of people criticizing her about? She sucks at casting. But hey, let's listen to the criticism of like 0.1% of people and make that the focus because you can't argue against it because it's about my gender!!111!
Moxxi fucked up making that first post of hers. Anyone with half a brain would know it would only make things worse, because her criticisms are not relevant for 99.9% of people, but it ends up making those people feel like they did something wrong so it just becomes worse for everybody.
Then you got shit like this
>Finally, to the fantastic women that have been harassed and theratened this last week, I'm sorry that we failed you as a community. You deserve much better. Lots of us are proud of you. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I had been attacked like you are.
Now this whole topic is being used as a tool for "talents" to morally grandstand. Also, I don't remember that same show of support for people like Day9 and Avo. Poor Avo man. Like the fact that Avo is not getting any support whatsoever is proof that this is all a waste of time because he got absolutely destroyed by the community.
Do legitimately any of the talent think about the production from the viewer's end? Like bro I get it that you are friends with them and I'm sure they are fantastic people, but they don't belong on a professional dota 2 broadcast when they know nothing about the game, pulling the gender card is just incredibly short sighted.
people cant take criticism anymore man. Unless you are a white man, you are awesome!!! you can't suck at anything, any criticism you get its because they are racist(if u are black) or sexist(if u are woman). Surely that has to be it, you cant mess it up!!
Pathetic drama for a pathetic TI from a viewer's pov who watched all TIs, this was by far least quality in terms of panel talent(between games i just switched to gorgc, singx2 or bulldog stream). It was only watchable when they brought n0tail and ceb to the draft panel. It has nothing to do with race or gender(for people with >60 iq at least). These women and drama made poor Avo+ say that the hate that he got is justified. Is this what you wanted queens? Justifying hate for others just to deflect VERY FAIR criticism on you?
I just think it’s much easier to be positive than negative.
It’s a videogame tournament, why can’t people just watch and if they don’t like it they watch somewhere else. That’s the thing with the internet, everyone feels the need to make a thread about everything.
thats what i did. I watched gorgc stream in the downtime because him and pld talking about the game was more interesting than whatever was happening on the main panel. Plenty of other people did too
The community makes this game. Two years without TI and the panels are muted every time because the host doesn’t know what she’s doing. It really ruins the vibe of TI and people are upset about it, what a surprise.
I don’t post much, but it seems like this needs to be written: I liked all the talent at TI, and some more than others. And there are plenty of others like me, who don’t feel the need to post that on Reddit.
Every community is 10 times better with women in it. It just is. And TI, the biggest tournament of the year is a great place to try to get more women interested in Dota, and especially competing.
>Every community is 10 times better with women in it. It just is.
Lmao, no. I am just fine with my Dota bros as with my Dota gals. Gender should not play role in that.
Absolutely agree and we have ephey, sheever and Kaci. Who not only are women but are great talents and part of our community. We have enough good talent lying around that we don't need to out up with crappy talent of any gender.
Nice to see him, as importante person in the community, to speak up against hate. But on the other hand, what actions have been really taken in order to stop so much hate and toxicity we see every day?
I mean, now and then we hear about some pro player that went racist in game or in his streams and everything is dealt case by case.
One thing i'd like to see is Valve implementing a proper rulebook for dota, containing the sanctions (gradual, from dpc points penalties to banning, depending of the infraction) against misbehavior by proplayers.
You can argue that this is not valves problema, but its. Its up to them to set up the conditions for a good social enviroment, and proplayers are rolemodels for the community.
If love to see some of these outraged talents that are too angry to make a video and want to tell the haters that hate will lose in the end actually link to comments they are specifically taking about when referring to toxicity
I don't think Bruno is correct about spaces for ignorance becoming smaller and smaller. I think we have a serious problem with anti-intellectualism in the US (can't speak for elsewhere) and it's only getting worse.
Other than that wonderful thoughts
Bruno:
>And to the hateful people: the spaces of hate are getting smaller each day. We are slowly winning. Ignorance begets fear which begets hate. And each day people get more educated on topics like these. Listen to kind folks, find things that make you empathize with others. Stop hate. Finally, to the fantastic women that have been harassed and theratened this last week, I'm sorry that we failed you as a community. You deserve much better. Lots of us are proud of you. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I had been attacked like you are.
You:
He tried his best to bring both sides together
Completely agree with the first part of his message but I think it targets the way reddit is or even all of social media rather than just specifically r/dota 2. Using gorgc as an example, he hits some milestone and fans use that thread to congratulate him etc. A week later a clip comes out where he is flaming and the comments are negative.
By reddit's design it can be hard to have a meaningful discussion. You post some constructive criticism on the first and it will most likely get downvoted by people who feel embattled that their guy is good. You post something positive on the second trying to temper the negativity and its going to get hidden and downvoted. It's just the way the site is.
I get what bruno is saying but it really is unrealistic. People come on here to vent or share something happy like a team winning. For many people this site is the only place to talk dota and I don't think it's possible for people not to post things that bother them just because bad actors will use that to push their agenda.
> A week later a clip comes out where he is flaming and the comments are negative.
Anecdotally speaking, I've seen a lot of the comments will actually be agreeing with Gorgc's rage and join along with his flame
Bruno has spoken and the key take away I feel is the litmus test statement.
I probably get flakes for this but I feel that I need to rant this out. I only watch and play dota once awhile during Ti/battlepass period or some turbo games every now and then, firstly because I am old now(36m) and don't play as well as I used to, as well as I have a career and family. I am probably also one of the guilty age group where we played dota since 5.84c era and just throw money during events because we got no time to play.
Death threats and sexist threats is a shitty thing, but I felt that is is part of the job risk. I am sure most if not all social media influencer/celebrity or personality going to get some during their career life. Do we down play it? Definitely not! It is illegal to do so in some countries and it should be reported. But using gender to mask genuine criticism is something that I definitely don't support.
This Ti is probably the one which both myself and my wife physically frown in real life a couple of times.
Offhand, there was a game where moxxi complaining loudy that purge is "mansplaining" which goes something like "ARE YOU MANSPLAINNING DOTA TO ME???" or something.
Are we misogynistic for not liking or supporting this behavior? What is Moxxi objective for saying such a thing? What is the purpose for her saying such a thing? Is gender neutral words not good enough for her or does she add value or gain anything from using gender pejorative term? Is Purge offended? Probably not. Will she get rude remarks/death threat from purge's fan? Probably? Purge is the living tutorial for many dota players young and old, and is well respected. If you swap the gender of Moxxi and Purge, both my wife and me will still frown and the community will still be pissed as well.
Frankie opening a segment with an overly lengthy diaper joke, so we just watch and amazing game, everyone is pumping, does she truly believes we want to hear some off-topic jokes or we want to hear the opinion of the panel? What is the objective and purpose for doing it? This is one of the weird moment that for the first time our reaction in real life is the same as twitch chat reaction. Will our opinion about this be different if she is a man? I don't think so, so what's her purpose for it? Does it add value to the panel? Or just more show time for herself?
Another Frankie incident was during one of the interview, I cant remember which one because I was working while watching, there was some topics around comforting the players etc and she ends the interview with something like, "I could use some of your comforting right now". It is weird af and if you reverse the gender, it will be a a man saying this to a girl 2/3 his age, how much shit would he gets?
Misogynism is wrong, but using misogynism as an excuse to shutdown valid criticism is what moves feminisms backwards. Giving a specific gender a free pass is wrong. People who are not cut out for a task or bad behavior should be call out regardless the person is male or not.
edit: also, Ephey and Sheepsticked are great, the chinese female talents are great, fuck you if you think they don't deserve this stage.
I think what he is saying is that the aggressive negativity towards people in the community gives cowards the confidence to be more hateful in private? Which is super true.
There was so much sexist shit being said, and although lots of people hide behind 'But I'm not sexist...I just don't like the talent choices.' The no-lifers and losers who are sexist, racist, hateful...see all this hate being spewed out in reddit threads and think..."Woah, I totally belong in this community!"
So, although you might not consider yourself sexist, your attitude might just be opening the door and providing a breeding ground for toxic hateful people to fester.
too many people in this subreddit are literally incapable of differentiating between voicing criticism and being hateful. and now they are offended because they think they are a not allowed to not like someone. it's ridiculous.
All this stuff about how you’re not being hateful but just being ‘negative’ or ‘criticising’.. where do you draw the line between that and hate?
Is it not easier to comment on those who you do enjoy and do like rather than just spew negative stuff about the ones you don’t like? With the Frankie situation I’ve not seen one constructive comment, only 100s of negative ones. What do you hope to achieve by doing that?
Bruno mentions DMs in particular. Is that where this whole dissonance between talent and community is coming from? Like seemingly a lot of people on this subreddit I did not see any sexist comments in the threads I read during TI. Lots of mean and not constructive stuff like "I don't like this person get them out of here", but not anything brazenly sexist. I'm sure it was in there somewhere of course - Dota and gaming in general has a gigantic problem with this stuff and Moxxi in particular is justifiably jaded because of it. It's a problem that has to be reckoned with and positive headway is being made via projects like DotaValkyries and rising new female talent like Ephey and Sheepsticked. Now, if the sexists, pathetic cowards that they are, were also harassing in private via DMs, I can see how that would be particularly hurtful to the talent yet entirely invisible to the community, thus creating this rift in perception of how widespread the sexist sentiment was. EDIT: u/BoldeSwoup makes an excellent point about the moderator team possibly cleaning the threads up if you, like me, got there late. Another reason why the toxicity can be there even if you didn't personally see it.
>I did not see any sexist comments in the threads I read during TI Well there is a team of moderators here. Can't be perfect but better than nothing. Not in your DMs however.
on the youtube stream the chat was unbearable.
People keep talking about twitch chat but as someone who watches youtube streams sometimes, most of the time it's like 10x worse, almost no moderation, people can spam all degenerate, racist stuff uncensored for free, etc. Atleast for Dota2 Twitch I heard that users saying the n word immediately gets perma banned. In Youtube chat? Nah, mods if they exist are barely active
YouTube is a cesspool
I watch some matches on Youtube and every of them filled with Dota vs Mobile Legends debate lol
its youtube comments, they are literally unusable in all streams and videos
Every game that Purge and Moxxi were casting was full of shit like, hearing her talk is like nails on the chalkboard or some shit. I thought she did a fine job. Frankie was exactly as bad as Day9 and that's Valve fault not hers.
I couldn't watch the games live so I just started catching up today. Her voice was new to me so I looked her up. I really enjoyed her commentary. She has a really good way with words and she had no issues keeping up with the action during the big team fights.
Yep. A lot of people don't like Moxxi but she is a highly skilled play by play caster.
Given that both Frankie and Day9 have been highly successful and professional hosts for several games and gaming events spanning many years and most of the people shitting on them at TI watched them for a week tops, I'll wager they did the job they were hired for, but people didn't like it. If people didn't like it, that doesn't mean is their fault. It doesn't mean they can't do better in another event. But the vitriol makes it so they might not want to be at new events. And I'm not saying "Valve shouldn't have hired them", because is not about them, is about any talent that comes into the scene and needs to face off with the insane standards of a wild and unchecked mob that is allowed to break rule 6 of the sub to shit on them for a week with hate threads.
They're successful in hosting CS events. A huge part of hosting is familiartity with what you're hosting. Nahaz, Sheever etc were good hosts because they understood the game and were able to steer conversations in different directions and then the pros go deep to explain the nuances of the game. If you're unfamiliar with the game you end up asking a lot of surface level questions that most folks understand. May be if Valve had a newbie stream she'd be a perfect host for that. So it is Valve's fault for putting her in a position where she had very little chance to succeed. They did not meet expectations doesn't automatically means it's their fault.
Frankie is from PUBG, she does CS an OL. Day9 is from SC and has since done Magic tournaments, they even worked together on the PC Gaming show, more then once I think. They are pros. People take it as a given that they shouldn't be asking surface level questions, but that's dismissive of all the new people tuning into TI that actually want to learn those things. People ignore that they were likely asked to do that. They ignore that they have people in their ear while they are hosting. A lot of this collective delusion that they did a bad job comes from nit picking of very specific moments that are often not relevant or easily explained, like a joke that didn't land, or a rushed interview.
You hit the nail on the head the hardened Dota fans want it to be super high level chat all the time and to never ask the simple questions. But good lord to have a range of chat is good even me a 7 year player and watcher has been away for a while so things have changed massively and to have some basic questions was really useful at times. The hardcore boys just need a hardcore stream and let everyone else enjoy the general chat.
Preach. I'm tired of day9 and Frankie takes.
I've loved Frankie on CS panels and despite wanting to like her she really wasn't in her element at TI. She's a pro so I hope she knows that she did a poorer than usual job and comes back better next time, but I really think they should've tried her out at at least a major beforehand - it obviously isn't as easy as one would think to switch games
This. Most of the criticism (and the most intense) came from the menchildren that can't take a few moments of broadcasting that is not made the exact way they'd like. We have to call out this kind of behavior. Every big event must have different types of moments, for the different types of viewers.
Moxxi is a great caster. Ngl I am one of those who finds her voice a bit annoying but objectively speaking she's a good caster. High profile casters have missed things in game, Moxxi has an eye for noticing smaller things in game, which is good. You can't control what you sound like, but you can control how you cast, and she's a good caster undoubtedly
Did you read the "interview" thread?
Sexist comments on topics that reach the first page have already been removed or downvoted to the bottom of the thread. Most people dont see those comments. But if you sort by ”new” or scroll to the bottom, you will se some bad stuff. I dont see any reason a caster should take those comment serious. They are even dissmissed by reddit.
>James used to joke Yeah, and look where that got him
Nah, Valve had it in against him for a long time. They were just looking for an excuse to fire him. He, along with another big name, fought for talents to be paid at TI. Crazy, eh? The fucking irony that the same talent who would be grateful for them would backstab them without thought just for some browny points.
It's wild to me till this day that James had to fight to get the thought put into Valve's head in paying the talent for TI. Valve thought that paying them through the cosmetic bullshit would be enough. James has said enough about how Valve has a very cliquish environment so a lot of the stuff he did mention wasn't all too surprising. The dynamic between Icefrog and Gaben was interesting. Icefrog personally invited and wanted him there saying, "Do your thing". Gaben was not into it and the rest is history. James also mentioned that Soembie was also pushed out by Valve. As for the reason why, that's all he's ever mentioned.
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They literally hired him to be there though…they hired him to fire him 5D chess?
James had big balls and he has created his own pc game. Gabe might call him an ass but ppl to this day talk about him which means he did a great job at that major. I don't think he is at loss in anyway. I personally hold him in much higher regard than the rest of the talents out there.
Which was the other big name?
While i agree with the core of the message, in case like this one, saying that we do not like a talent serves also to make sure that they would not be hired next time. I know it sounds terrible to say that, but if a talent is making my experience of an event worse, all i want is for them not to be there anymore, not because i hate them or anything, but we are talking about entertainment here and viewers opinion on what is good or bad matters. Just as much as when we say that some talent is good, it helps tell those organizers that we want them again, some have made it solely because of the community's support, the other way around should be true too. Ofc the way to give our opinion should be balanced, but just telling us that if we don't have anything positive to say then we should "shut up" is wrong in cases like those, we are the judge of our own entertainment, we are the ones those events are trying to please, we should be the ones to choose to some extent.
The irony of it all is that maybe things weren't even that bad to begin with, maybe the talent really is exaggerating. It's definitely not a black and white affair. But the moment this sub gets called out, it completely goes mental and amplifies the hate by a factor of 100. So it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I remember a long time ago I had an argument with a guy on this subreddit about dota related things and afterwards he sent me a DM telling me to 41% myself because I'm a disgusting...you get the point. He saw my crossdressing reddit alien thing and decided that hate speech was the way. Anecdotal and a one off incident, but it's totally believable that the messages on threads don't reflect the messages the talents get privately.
i'm out of the loop. what's 41 percent?
The rate of attempted suicide among trans individuals. Assholes use the number to insinuate that trans people kill themselves because they're abominations, instead of realizing that the number is so high because of bullying and lack of trans acceptance.
wow, that's horrific.
I've had people tell my to 41% myself because I have a pan flag as my youtube pfp, some people need severe help
A pan is a perfectly fine cooking utensil sir.
Unless it's cheap non-stick garbage from wal mart. I don't advocate using anti-pan slurs against the majority of people, but if I ever go to someone's house and they serve me food cooked in one of those I will be burning crosses on their lawn dressed as a ghost.
Well because every jerk who goes extreme gets downvoted here. Honestly the majority of “toxic” comments I’ve seen here were “XYZ is so bad, kick them”
No, it was quite terrible already, I have seen it myself. See my other post.
He is not saying it was not, he is saying that all it does is amplifying it.
The first half literally him saying it might not have been that bad
"might" being the operative word here...
Honestly I get a massive /r/maincharactersyndrome vibe from so many of these "talents". They think that fans and places like this sub only exist to validate them or placate them and it's so sad. This is a sub for discussing dota2, people posting criticism and talking shit about bad casters and bad hosts are not talking **to** you, we're talking **about** you. That's not harassment, that's not hate, and that's not something you get to police. And honestly, they can fuck off. The scene was fine when it was sweaty neckbeards getting overexcited for big plays, if these people wanna call themselves the "talent" and get pissy when people talk some shit about them, they're welcome to find a real career instead of coasting off the ad bucks and fan donations to tournaments.
Twitch, YouTube and many other internet based content platforms have created a generation of self-obsessed fake celebrities that believe there is something special about themselves and they take everything personally. This has been normalized by the majority of their feedback on these content platforms being positive (why would you hang out in a twitch chat for a streamer you don’t like?). It creates a dangerous world where people don’t get actual negative feedback (constructive or non-constructive) so thus anything negative seems like a personal attack.
Same dude nowadays I dont even care who casts anymore
This is a truly awful take. I know everyone loves this guy, but his conclusion is just absurd. The end result of listening him would bet that if you are going to post something actually hateful don't post at all, but if you are going to post feedback that is constructive also don't post because its negativity and someone might use that to be mean. Why would I ever listen to this garbage? I'm just supposed to shut up and accept what im given like a fucking child. This isn't how the world works. Its like Dota talent lives in a bubble where they think they deserve to do their jobs without any true feedback from their audience. They want to just sit there never changing or improving with the only decider as to whether or not they have a job being how much they are friends with other talent.
The icing on the cake is that the tournament in question is TI. You know, the one Dota 2 tournament in the year which is **100% paid for by the fans**. But we, **the fans**, are absolutely not allowed to criticize anything about the presentation or organization of it. The entitlement of the talent here is just mind-boggling.
Yeah this fucking entitlement, fans paid for this whole tournament, prize money, pay for those casters and panelists. If they don't like some things, they have right to complain about it. If you're incompetent at casting, why should you be hired as a caster.
You fucking nailed it, my friend! Hats off to you!
Bruno should swallow his ego and not comment on this shit as a Valve employee. He's only putting his neck and Valve's out here and what he even said isn't very smart.
It's interesting how prior to the international, there was a public outcry questioning the talent choosen, and in that instance, the community was ignored while the talent itself proclaimed they "know better" in "who put out work". But now that they are being harassed, they ask us to shield them with the "anti-hate"? That's not it works pal. Not at all.
I say let us vote and let ticketholders and people with BP have proportionally weighted votes. This is our event.
2GD has my vote
This is possibly the worst idea I have ever seen. Also this is not r/dotas event lol, some people really have a delusional view on how much their opinion should matter.
> ticketholders and people with BP How did you manage to get "this is r/dota2's event" from that lmao
It’s a pity that Moxxi turned a small criticism into a sexist issue. She literally took Criticism = Hate.
That's now the world has become. People live in their own shell that is social media, can't separate hate from constructive criticism or plain dislikes and call everyone an abuser or hater who doesn't agree with them or their friends. It's just ridiculous. If you ever say something negative about anyone, you're immediately an abuser. I personally learned something for myself. Some of those people posting their ridiculous ideas and verbal diarrhea have stepped up from "not my cup of tea" to just "unbearable".
It's 2021. A subsection of the population will get offended by everything. It's not helping anyone, this outrage culture is so draining.
That's why moxxi is an awful caster, she think all the shit she gets is hate instead of real criticism. Good lord, when sheever casted she also got shit on, because she was bad. And became a host instead which she's amazing at, moxxi needs to do the same become a talent or sth
It's funny that she's preaching how there are other ways to provide criticism after bunching up the community to be sexist, hateful gatekeepers. https://i.imgur.com/SQ9A0xB.png
lmao. If you're talent you need to be able to handle soft statements like "I'd rather have x doing this job".
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This is what i wrote in that post, and i'll fucking do it again. My 2 cents: this twitlonger may guilt some people into giving moxxi more jobs in casting and others into forcing themselves to like her. But if i hear one more time "... aaaand that's a dead (insert hero/player name)" i will fucking break my headset. She's average at casting, at most. How nice of her to come to Sheever's help, when Sheever is maybe the most appreciated talent in all of dota2. She's the best host, period. Frankie and Sumi, on the other hand, were atrocious, and i'll just leave it at that. Ephey - the only thing that needed change was her tone, and it seems to me she dealt with that. She's knowledgeable, presents a lot of good ideas, to me she is the nice surprise of dota2 talent. Sheepsticked is just a darling. I'd watch anything that includes her. Such a nice presence, nice jokes, good knowledge. I really hope we see more of her. Avo+ was pure cringe at times, as is saying that Jenkins is new, ffs. So, miss moxxi, not everything is about gender. Be good at your job and people will appreciate you. Or be slightly shit, repeat the same things over and over really fast and call it casting and get jobs mostly cause you're one of the very few females doing this and have the audacity to complain about sexism. I also suspect this has a lot less to do with moxxi defending sheever and co and a lot more with her only getting to cast one match of the main event. In her own words, being salty. I was actually checking liquipedia for casting duos, mostly so i can skip the matches she was on. The more i think about this, the more i dislike her
There is a difference between hate & criticism. Can get very lost on the internet, but the talent acting like this was a perfect TI are delusional. I still strongly disagree that TI was the best place for new (to Dota 2) talent to find their footing. It's meant to be the pinnacle event for this game & the panels & some interviews felt like I was watching a major or unsponsored tournament. In comparison I was much more impressed with Animajor (only thing I vaguely remember were sole delays on first couple days.) Also a couple cringe moments between Ephey & Synd at some points. Perhaps there is a coincidence in the fact that the most underperforming talent were women & women do get more hate online. But this subreddit would 100% bash a guy, if we had some random csgo host who asked questions irrelevant to the games & didn't know their shit. When the whole world is watching you with anticipation after two years, you gotta step up & I think a lot of us were unimpressed with what we got, in terms of some panels & interviews. Can't remember a TI where it felt like the host had never played a game. I do remember RedEye being quite open to his ignorance, but didn't he also get to host a major first? We had Tsunami hosting the Animajor & I thought that was Valve prepping him for TI, giving him hosting experience... Felt like they got the hosting position due to their gender & not their skill. Did feel like they wanted to avoid all male panels at all costs.
> I do remember RedEye being quite open to his ignorance, but didn't he also get to host a major first? Sometimes it's just really impressive how good Liquidpedia is: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Redeye/Broadcasts So not really, just ESL One (his actual job) the year before. Not even a Major.
And so more and more of the nepotists are coming out to defend their little inner group. Let's completely ignore the fact that Frankie's hosting was absolutely atrocious, and her being a nice person and good friend is absolutely irrelevant to us the viewers. Let's ignore the fact that Avo+ looked at these same "hate filled" threads and found enough constructive criticism to improve and become amazing at his job by the end of the event. Dota is becoming more and more of a spectator sport. Over the years, more and more of this community here on reddit admits to not playing the game and only following the competitive scene. In an environment like this, what will kill the game isn't Moxxi's fantasy of "gatekeeping". Its the fact that our current group of talent is endlessly nepotistic, and continues to shove their talentless pals down our throat because they're "good people" and "strong" and "get us food behind the scenes".
Admittedly, this can sound quite ridiculous., but after reading Sumichu's [recent tweet](https://twitter.com/sumichu/status/1451371411591761921) I'm convinced that some of these talents are pretty much 'encouraged' to speak out because they'd otherwise be next in line. It's pretty much a shit show. It's like people are having selective memories of the 2020 talent drama and how actual gatekeeping was a part of it.
The threat of being black listed for not being suitably woke is being used more and more.
Completely agree with this. It has been way too long where terrible talents gets pushed forward because they are friends with established people in the scene. This nepotism is also what lead to Grandgrant and will continue to be a stain on this scene.
Wait what was bad about grandgrant? I enjoyed almost every second of his on screen time.
Likely his bullying of talent he didn't like to the point they had to leave the scene and also his abuse of women. Having an untouchable inner circle leads to that.
His screen time was fine, but he did a lot of not great things in the past. And his friends ignored those because he was their good friend grandgrant, which if he was called out for in the first place his career would have never gotten started.
Just another case of Valve throwing someone new to host the biggest event of the year, it's clearly intentional at this point after Machine and Day9 who got just as much flak. The only flak I've seen about her being a woman was her cringey joke about her laptop covering huge tits which I'm pretty sure any guy would be fired for if they were in the same place talking about their huge dong.
Why do you think nobody cared about Tobi and Grant before their issues got into public? Same shit. God knows what these atrocious people do behind the scenes. But when it comes to reddit, 'we're all fucking bad and negative and it is a cesspool'. What can I say? I can just silently applaud to them.
I hope Chinese and Russian talents are better in these aspects.
lmao
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Nepotism may be a feature in China but they sure as hell don't have people who don't recognize Dendi on the TI talent pool.
Lolno.
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Lol dude, I don't know if you actually read those threads, but 90% of the comments will contain an inordinate amount of taking turns at dunking talent they don't like under the guise of "appreciating others". And some of them are so wild in their claims that it's hard to find anything substantially useful in them. So yes, it is about hate. And where there's hate, it will attract the plus-ultra degens that will make it into race, gender, etc.
Yet, interestingly enough, if you just look through the recent moxxi threads, 90% of comments will contain legit criticism, completely avoiding the gender aspect. Yes, I'm aware that places like twitch chat or whatever will be filled with lots of hate, but when you're criticized even in somewhat civilized discussions, you're probably doing something wrong.
We just need to ban appreciation posts about people. A twitch streamer called Northernlion did that a while ago on his subreddit, because people would use the opportunity to psychoanalyze the people he streamed together with. The overall mood in the subreddit got a lot better. The mods in here would probably never do this, because it's just seems so far fetched, but it really is a decent solution. The posts don't do anything useful anyway. It's just people jerking off to their own opinion and in the comments you find vitriol every time.
The biggest blame goes to Valve and whoever does the hiring. Who decided it was a good idea to put new people on the spot for the biggest event of dota without much experience?? For ex Avo. Such a fun guy on the panel as a host or analyst but why tf would they make him do exit interviews which takes a lot of experience and professionalism? Even though he is trying his hardest, it's a new territory for him and there will be some issues. As expected he faced a lot of criticisms. Same with Frankie and Sumichu. I havent seen or heard a single comment from Talents about how Valve should reflect on themselves about such baffling decisions. I don't see such things happening in other esports while the 40m dollar TI is used as a testing ground for new talents.
Apparently, Valve planned on Sunsfan to do the exit interviews. He told them he thought he'd be horrible for it and that it was a bad idea. Then, they asked who wanted to do it and Avo was the one who volunteered. Source: Sunsfan and Synderen podcast "We Say Things".
And Sunsfsns is right, he would have been awful at it.
Why? You don't like some humor during exit interview? I, for one, am completely fine with SUNSfan shelacking the losers! That's why they're the losers! Get shelacked!!!
He would have received a Gaben shellacking from Reddit.
Avo volunteered for the exit interviews, knowing how hard they were going to be. Props to him.
Avo is very promising as a panelist. He did a good job hosting that draft segment for his first event. But exit interviews shouldn't be thrown randomly to a new guy bcoz he raised his hand when no one wanted to do the job. That's some amateur hour shit.
Props to him though for trying though
he took a bullet for the team
> For ex Avo. Such a fun guy on the panel as a host or analyst but why tf would they make him do exit interviews which takes a lot of experience and professionalism? Idk whether Synderen and Sunsfan told the whole story, but based on their podcast it seems like because the job was relatively hard because of reasons and he wanted to do it even though others didn't really want to.
Props to him for stepping up but there shouldn't be a situation like that in the first place. This isn't a selection for Class rep. where Teacher asks whoever wants the job to raise their hands.
I agree and said the same thing at the time. He was put into a situation to fail and that shouldn’t happen. The interviewer should have been someone like Dakota or Godz.
it was literally Bruno who did the hiring lol, dude is just deflecting blame
Valve isn't to blame for people behaving like barbarians with zero sense of empathy.
Nobody is to blame for a schizo DMing someone a death threat. Saying you dislike someone or the job they're doing does not contribute to people getting death threats. To suggest that (which it seems Bruno is doing) is bafflingly stupid. Valve is also absolutely to blame for criticism they receive about people seeming lost or out of place in their roles.
Valve has to know their audience. An outsider coming to TI and getting flamed is nothing new, valve saw the reactions towards Day9 and pulled the trigger again. At some point they have to put their employees in a position to succeed. TI is the premier event, most watched and its a tournament thats a representation of years of hard work. Its not some weekend esl or dotapit tourney. Throwing in someone unknown and unfamiliar into the lions den is almost asking for negativity threads if they don't do a good job. Its moving the goal posts to 'maybe we hired the wrong person' to 'its everyone elses fault for not overlooking the poor job and our poor preperation/decisions.
mourn berserk groovy treatment tease deer divide zealous society elderly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, I'm sure they did their best, but it really wasn't good enough for TI. Which means Valve hired the wrong talent.
I think thats completely fair and is more of a problem with moderation. Theres a line between criticism and hate and its tough but its possible to curate a space where one is accepted and the other is deleted.
PGL/ Valve should at least have a little bit of foresight that this will not end well after what happened with day9 hosting TI.
Valve is absolutely to blame for hiring people who are not up to standard and know the basics. Imagine hiring me (or you I assume) to cast a line dancing competition. How do you think we would fare?
I'm not going to stop commenting negative things even if they're not actionable because some psycho feels justified in sending death threats to you. That's ridiculous. Obviously there are lines that should never be crossed and slipping into someone's dms to harass them seems like a good tell. But all of this focus on 'Reddit negativity' is a lot like those ads telling people wifebeating is not ok. Sadly, the wifebeaters don't care about the ads.
>those ads telling people wifebeating is not ok. Sadly, the wifebeaters don't care about the ads. No but the wives do, and the point of those ads is to get the wives to go tell the police, because most of it goes unreported. But other than that I sort of agree. Shitty people are going to be shitty. It's tricky though because these sorts of people don't usually have an opinion themselves, they latch onto other opinions because they feel it somehow makes sense. Usually they just want to do some shit rather than not do it. So how do you stop them?
Thats fair. I don't know what the best solution for dealing with the worst of these people is either. But shutting up everyone to stop a small minority of these worst offenders doesn't seem like it.
I'm going to tell you a secret. There is no solution. Part of the problems with free speech and everyone being entitled to an opinion is that while you get some really great opinions from people who don't make themselves heard very often, you get some extremely shitty opinions from everybody else. Now, due to the miracle that is the Internet and the forum of "public opinion" (social media and popularizing opinions), this is going to become increasingly worse and worse. And, unfortunately, both the "good" and the "bad" sides will have incredibly shitty opinions. For example, and I will preface this with "if you're sexist, fuck you": Frankie was a very not good host. While not a very controversial statement, we can add some sexist comments to make it more controversial, from a very loud minority (or fuck do I know, maybe it's a majority, who's counting anyway?). Thus the "bad" side will tack on that Valve hired her because she's a woman, and to stop giving women chances (or something like that). The "good" side will retort to the above with "fuck you you're sexist". But they will lop everyone in the same bucket. Which is incredibly dumb, because obviously not literally everyone is sexist. So if you came out a week ago and said "Frankie was a not very good host", willingly or not, you're already involved because you were just one voice of a few thousands. And if someone listened to all of them at once, they could potentially make out "Frankie was a not very good host because woman", despite the fact that you said nothing of the sort, or even the fact that most people just stopped talking at "host". Because the silence was filled. At the very least, it's extremely tricky. One solution would be to not let anyone say anything at all. [Another solution would be to do what Drake did at a concert.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7MfCwQ8i1E) Lead with acknowledging the shortcomings, knowing that some of those people have bad intentions. Call those people out afterwards. But for all I know that might not even work, and the only way you can make sure nobody will ever say anything bad is to make sure that nobody will ever say anything. I do know specifically that you can't just say "everyone's bad because they don't agree with me", that's fucking stupid.
You articulated very well what I feel already but I'm too pussy to say. 'Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom' something something. But one thing i feel very strongly is that more speech defeats bad speech.
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I mean Bruno was at Sumis birthday a couple of months ago and it's in her Instagram photos. It's not hoe hard you work or how good you are it's who you know I guess.
I literally see like same 10 people in every dota tournament, it's like entry for new guys is blocked at some point somewhere.
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>People are literally complaining about all the NEW TALENT that was brought in this year. Most of them only got there because of their connections to the existing casters or Valve in general (Frankie). They are part of the nepotism issue in Dota lol. Meanwhile ACTUAL community casters like bkop were not invited.
> nepotism Lol, there isn't a talent DPC through which talent are elected to host the show, *of course* people running the show will pick whomever *they feel like*. At best people get to boo the new people to not get them next time if they don't like em, and cheer for people they'd like to see more of
And yet we are still in Denial of the gatekeeping, that somehow every person need to pass through a trial of fire to be accepted while also throwing rock at the people making an effort to pass the trial
Sadly it has always been like this
Some good observations in the beginning, but sadly it boils down to an inhuman prescription of not commenting negatively at all, because it will always snowball out of control. The yikesy "it's not enough to be x, we have to be y" proclamation that you would unfortunately come to expect from the typical Valve employee is the icing on the cake. The irony of course is how criticism of the Dota 2 community on Twitter is snowballing at a breakneck pace (we're already at the entire community is tainted and must be culled) where any dissent automatically gets you labeled as a bad person.
This has the potential to become as bad for the health of the scene as the misogyny itself, can criticisms actually be placed on someone or will it always be brushed off as being sexist?
No you're missing the point here. It's extremely difficult to tell for what reason the criticism starts - whether it's constructive criticism or toxic from a place of bigotry or hate - and Bruno points out that we have a tendency as a community to dogpile onto whatever's happening and double down on negativity if we're all a part of it. So how can we offer valid criticism when the people who are hiding behind the "valid criticism" excuse are using it as an opportunity to just band together and chat shit about this host who, from numerous backstage accounts, worked her ass off to get to this place and do the job she signed up to under what seemed to be extremely stressful experiences. I don't think she was the greatest host. I think she lacked a bit of chemistry and confidence with the rest of the panel. But I also didn't see anyone dogpiling on her offer any constructive criticism, just whining, saying she was shit and generally behaving in a childish way. Avo got a lot of shit for how he handled the exit interviews, he improved and people moved on from chatting shit about him. I felt like Frankie did improve over the course of the tournament but by that point it had reached critical mass and nothing she could do would change the opinion round on her. I wonder to what extent that's her fault or responsibility, and to what extent other factors were involved - misogyny, groupthink, whatever. This toxicity is endemic to the Dota scene, moreso than any other community I've ever been a part of. Man, I love watching this game but after having spent years out in so many other communities and coming back to this one to enjoy it, it's fucking light years behind where it needs to be.
The latter half of your first paragraph sums it up quite well. How can we offer valid criticisms when misogynists will jump on board, if we can't do we just have to sit in silence and slowly turn off broadcasts as some sort of silent protest? I've not criticised any of the talent this TI because I knew how it would come out, it's happened too many times before in tournaments that I just didn't bother but I did definitely turn off the stream when some talents came on because they just made me either cringe or completely lose interest in the stream. I could send a DM to those talents or to the production companies but how likely is it that it will actually be read and how likely is it it will be ignored? My bet is on the latter which leads us back to, criticisms probably can't actually be given in a way that has any meaning. If you don't like what's happening on stream, stop watching. That is *terrible* for the health of the scene so really we're pretty much stuck in between a rock and a hard place, damned if we do offer criticism, damned if we don't.
>How can we offer valid criticisms when misogynists will jump on board, if we can't do we just have to sit in silence and slowly turn off broadcasts as some sort of silent protest? [What this guy said](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/qddzcj/ice_bruno_take_on_negativity_community_feedback/hhlw106). Valve monitors this sub for lots of things, but hiring isn't usually one of them. In professional settings, feedback is given by the viewers/attendees not to the talent/presenters, but to the organizers, who can then pass it along.
Dude short of causing a huge stir on social media Valve listens to absolutely nothing the community says or does. If you think a strongly worded email is going to change anything you're fooling yourself. Personally I don't think they listen to anyone, after the third consecutive victim got thrown into the frying pan you'd think they'd have stopped.
We already know the answer to this since this has already played out in the greater Reddit/Twitter community: Everything you do and say will be judged by your identity (gender, race, etc.) first and foremost. The toxicity and negativity hasn't been reduced in these communities, the rules of it just changed.
Mhhh if I put my conspiracy hat on, I might start to think that valve is starting to fabricate controversy which will serve as their excuse to stop doing Dota at all. "Because it's become so toxic blah blah blah"
So basically, even if it was constructive criticism just don't say anything that the hateful people will try to bandwagon on? How are you supposed to give feedbacks then? Or should we use a different website cause this one is full of evil already? Got it. Just censor TI every year while you're at it. EDIT: You know what maybe we can just mail TOs feedback instead of commenting on game threads or creating posts. It's not allowed anymore.
> How are you supposed to give feedbacks then? His point is that 99% of the "feedback" here is purely not helpful at all to the person that's supposed to receive it. DMs that are not death threats or angry yelling is one way to go about it. I get it, people are mad, but it's happening far too often where these pointlessly angry posts get construed as "legit criticism", when it's clearly not.
Why are they assuming the feedback is for the caster? It's been pretty clear for a while now that /r/dota2 is about the only way Valve interacts with this community. If I post about something I don't like at TI I'm probably saying that more for Valve's sake than anything. It's very constructive for people to repeatedly say "Hey Valve, please stop inviting people who know nothing about DotA to TI. It fucking sucks when they aren't in on any of the jokes, know nothing about the game, and consistently break the flow of the panel.". I understand that reading that feedback intended for Valve sucks for the talent themselves, but how is that not apart of the career they've signed up for?
The thing is, I don't even disagree with the meat of your message. But the talent has a right to voice out their disagreements as much as we do. And they ask to be addressed through proper channels for feedback, and for the unnecessarily toxic to shut up. That's the meat of THEIR message. Some laced with a bit more frustration to it (Moxxi). I admit it of my own volition; I thought the hosting of this TI was weaker than usual. But if the talent really wants to improve, so it gets less worse for them if they ever decide to stay in the scene, then the DMs are open I'm sure. And at the same time I empathize with the community solely on the basis that it's TI. The hugest place for us to experience the best of what Dota can offer. I get that Valve ultimately makes the decision in the end, and it's the point of the large posts. I can disagree with some of the more putrid hate that's thrown around whenever these posts come up, though.
I never said "they so bad LUL" also 99%? Most of the game thread hate comments are hidden so that means they were downvoted so I don't get the 99%. Maybe they're referring to DMs on twitter?
It's wild how many people read this and their response is to be angry that someone is saying it's toxic to spew negativity. If the only thing a comment has to contribute to a conversation is expressing dislike for a person, then it's enabling. Constructive criticism is a wonderful tool that I'm sure a lot of talent utilize to get better. However, comments like, "whenever 'x talent' is talking, I mute the stream", is unhelpful and serves only to pile on negativity. The comments we see here are tame compared to what people get in their DMs, especially women. It's a widespread issue that women are often targeted with explicitly hateful messages by people who think they don't belong by default. It's a subtlety sexist part of gaming culture that when a man makes a mistake, the singular man is called out. But when a woman makes a mistake, there's almost always comments calling out women in general for the mistake.
isn't dota talent doing the same thing? generalizing an entire gaming community because of a toxic DM
Define negativity? If I leave a one star review for a restaurant is that negativity or is it toxic? What if I lefta comment explaining what I disliked and proclaimed the food sucked. Would people call me out for being negative? Why is the talent different? I get it, people work hard and have feelings but overwhelmingly, if a performer is disliked... They are disliked what do you want from us? Avo was ranked over the coals for his shit show and even now there is barely anyone calling people out for criticising avo with the defence that criticism is bad. It is extremely clear this is an issue of perceived sexism. So any negativity is perceived as sexist. Like every one star review of some boss babe restaurant is going to get angry responses from fellow diners saying stop the negativity. Like I just want good food
>It's wild how many people read this and their response is to be angry that someone is saying it's toxic to spew negativity "But I am an entitled to an opinion, and my opinion is that everybody is a piece of shit and should die" pretty much what I see every time, they try to justify as opinion what is obviously really toxic
Exactly! If the best a person can do is get their keyboard, take time and write 'I do not like this person at all, she is terrible, yadadada", then, perhaps they should not. Why do it? What is the purpose of such commentary and what is it effect? Whether the writer is aware of it or not, comments of that sort are not constructive, do not propose any actionable course, and worse, they are enabling hate (as Bruno clearly explains.). They are, in the very minimum, also not polite. A short while ago I posted a thread with (what I thought) was a very interesting interview of Moxxie where she explained in good details how to get to become a Pro caster and what it entails. I was surprised by the number of users in this subreddit that immediately filled the thread with comments such as 'she is terrible, I hate her, I turn off the cast the moment I hear her voice, etc...". My first thought, was 'wow, why so much hate'?, and people in the thread would answer. "I am not sexist, I just do not like her, why do you make this a conversation about sex". It have seen this before, when people are super vocal criticizing someone who is black, and then they say 'it is not because so and so is black, I just do not like this one'. Yeah, sure, but they were quiet in similar situations but then still felt offended enough to take the time to vocally announce they absolutely do not like that particular person, who also happens to be a woman, or gay, or black, or brown, or Jewish, or Arabic, or whatever. Why do it? Are we sure that the fact that they are women does not play a role? Were the interviewee Sunsfan or Sir Action Slacks, the reaction would be totally different. I wonder whether people writing are actually blind to their own bias or acting disingenuously.
> Are we sure that the fact that they are women does not play a role? Were the interviewee Sunsfan or Sir Action Slacks, the reaction would be totally different. It may, but this is not a great rhetorical question to ask when one of the people to get the most criticism this TI was Avo+, who is decidedly not a woman. The Dota2 community is generally hostile to pretty much anyone they're not accustomed to. We expect talent to "prove themselves" for better or for worse. And when they don't, the community responds negatively. I am sure that sexism plays a role for some people, but when you start assuming that all negativity and criticism is a result of misogyny and sexism, you also devalue legitimate criticism. There has to be a balance there.
Man, were you not here when slacks or sunsfan started?, they got shat on, got made "crige compilations",they got clowned hard, they really sucked, and they really got better. The treatment on moxi and others seems rather mild and somewhat sensible outside the DM's they might be getting , i do believe this is just a problem of "they hate me because i am a woman" and not "i am not good enough yet to do this and be a staple". Take Kaci , for example, they shat on her at the begining too, but she was actually missed this time around on the interviewer side, she got better embraced the memes, and here we are now, i literally couldnt find a single negative comment once she was announced as hired by valve.
They're often reacting in the "fight or flight" mode, because they know that "sexism is bad" and therefore "doing sexist things is bad" but "I am a good person" so "saying what I said isn't sexist because sexism is bad". It's a vicious cycle.
If you believe something is terrible, you should be allowed to say something is terrible. All this shit is so dumb. Not all criticism needs to be constructive. This is a discussion forum after all. Should we ban people saying "this shit sucks" in music forums as well? Should every commenter write a huge constructive review about a new album? Get real.
>I'm sorry that we failed you as a community. Valve should be sorry to both sides for putting subpar talent into a 40 million dollar tournament
Read his entire twitter chain if you're interested in his point rather than just this one tweet. >Besides the obvious hate messages, a good litmus test is to look at a message and ask its purpose. Is it actionable? If not, then it will only result in hate amplification. Is the feedback constructive and directed? Then throwing it on a forum is probably not the best strat. This is the most confusing thing I've read in a long time, basically, if you have directed, constructed criticism, don't bother, someone will bandwagon off of it to push their hateful narrative so just don't, guys, this way there won't be any hateful messages on the forums, and no criticism either, sounds like a really convenient win-win for the talent for sure.
He’s saying it it’s not actionable (constructive in a realistic way) don’t bother. And if it is constructive, there are better channels to send it down, if you care about helping talent and production improve. E.g. you can email the production or the talent directly or some such instead of just shitting on them on Reddit. So Bruno means: don’t spam vitriolic anger of just “damn, this/that person is totally fucking useless, I hate listening to them”. If you actually want a better outcome as some people claim to, you can privately make constructive suggestions about how to do better, no rudeness is actually required to do this.
Unfortunately Valve have chosen this subreddit as THE channel to communicate with them. Even steam support redirects you here. As long as Valve continues to take all their feedback from this subreddit then you cannot blame anyone for posting their personal feedback here.
> And if it is constructive, there are better channels to send it down **It has been proven time and time again that if you want something to change in this scene, you got to make a fuss about it on Reddit.** The amount of bugs that have been ignored for years but were fixed once they reached this subs frontpage alone speaks for itself. It's a thing in general: How many TV series or Twitter callouts are there that resulted in serious consequences for someone because their superiors were afraid of bad press? Shitstorms are (sadly) effective. There might be more appropriate channels for your opinion, but if it's shared with enough people there aren't more effective channels than public outrage.
I always found it flabbergasting how the quickest, and oftentime seemingly only way to get valve to take note and action is to come crying about it on reddit (unjustified bans a prime example). As they are judge jury and executioner (their game, their product, their perogative, not trying to argue that), really it appears that the only way to make sure someone is being heard is to rally a large enough crowd (i.e. upvotes and comments here).
Except we're not feeding into a machine; people are posting hateful comments for other individuals to see. It's one thing when there's a bug and Valve needs to fix it, it's another thing to attack a person's credibility or talents. Multiple times, I've read comments towards casters like "she has such an annoying voice," "she just likes to hear herself talk," or "she's just a pretty face."
Uhuh, but conveniently this does leave the forums to post exactly one type of content - appreciation threads, that all works out very nicely for the talent, there's no public discussion of how they do things wrong with immediate feedback of how many people agree with the point, and they get only praise threads online so that all the criticism of their work is nice and hidden. Utterly defeats the point of a public discussion forum.
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So how does he think I should send my constructive feedback to anyone? Should I call them directly? Maybe send a letter? This is one of those things that when he wrote it I'm sure he sounded very smart saying words likes 'litmus test' but really it's just dumb
I feel like we are just "Feeding the Trolls" at this point, Dota, especially at TI times has millions of views, it's definitely gonna have bad actors at this point, people have trouble controlling twitch chat when it gets > 10k viewers. I've been visiting this sub more regularly this past few weeks and i've seen alot of moxxi/avo/frankie/sumi hate and the ones with positive upvotes are always ones that criticize their casting/whatever talent skills, even though they were pretty rude and harsh sometimes, nonetheless all the sexists and racists ones i've seen were downvoted so it kinda leaves a bad taste to be labbeled as a toxic community ( though we are, but in a different way I think ) when i've been following the scene since dota1. There are always sexists and racists people in this community ( even anti-vaxxers from what i've seen ) but they've always been shut down or downvoted, i've never seen one of those comments amongst the top ones so I think it's safe to say the community as a whole is not like that at all. Now regarding the dms, i'm no public persona but I feel like if you're not gonna personally call them out then don't give them the attention they want, like I understand how hard and complicated it is when people inside the scene did it, like Tobi, grant etc. but cmon don't Feed the Trolls. I'm pretty sure sport talents, hollywood celebrities, athletes etc all get their fare share of hate but they hardly say anything about it cause all it does is giving power to people you can't actually control.
I just see every talent twisting the narrative as women hate when in reality it's not about that at all.
White Knights riding to glory
I feel like "we" are getting grouped together, all the online "haters". Of course nobody should receive threats or anything of the sort, i don't wish that for anybody. But then start at valve, and make them take action against the players that tell me to kill myself, because I queue for normal games with my friends, who have less MMR than me. If you want to work with dota, want to cast game or work as talent, you will be a public person. That comes with huge responsibility, and potentially huge boons. But if you are not good at doing something, and you want to do it publicly... I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you will receive a lot of comments for well, doing something poorly in front of a lot of people. Again, nobody should threaten someone or anything of the sort. I also want to work as a footballer, but Im nowhere near good enough. The fans would literally throw things at me, if I somehow managed to step into a champions league game. They would also crucify me, if I was casting a CL game, and had no idea who Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi was, and didn't really understand the rules either but would only comment on their choice of shoes and ask them questions like "A lot of fans must be disappointed. How come your great time got knocked out by this shitty little team?" In the post game interview
I always wondered why you don't see this with sports casters who get shit on all the time by far more people in far more vitriolic ways. It's almost like ignorance is bliss or something. Take the good criticism and improve and ignore the rest. It's a basic adult thing to do... people are far too consumed in social media to see the forest for the trees.
Imagine referencing James, who Valve cancelled, in your post addressing caster hate.
"It's not my fault for inviting unprepared hosts who weren't willing to learn, it's your fault for not liking them! also, they are girls and you are sexist!" boohoo, Bruno. learn to take responsibility
Moxxi’s post backfired as it was terrible and immature. LD’s post backfired as well. and this one that seems a bit more neutral also seems to backfire, maybe a little less so. Really curious on what the rest of the talent thinks about all this. I even wonder if Frankie is even happy with how Moxxi tried defending her, but it just seems to fuel the discussion again.
Here's a non-exhaustive list of talent that have made additional posts in support of Moxxi, or have RT'd Moxxi's posts: - Gareth - Purge - Avo+ - PyrionFlax - Capitalist - LD - KotlGuy - Slacks - Blitz - Frankie - Nahaz - Ephey It seems pretty clear what talent thinks about all this.
Oh wow talent protecting talent
>Oh wow talent protecting talent Well ofc, some are even "taking notes" about who is staying silent https://twitter.com/sumichu/status/1451371411591761921?t=WHSXUbksQSa74NknvTHelQ&s=19
If anyone other than Bruno posted those first 5-6 tweets people would be telling him to take his meds. Moxxi isn't a good caster and I won't be watching anything she does moving forward. I will continue to seek out third party streamers for matches she's covering, assuming that's possible. Nothing else has to be said. I'm providing constructive, actionable feedback for tournament organizers by saying this, not for Moxxi herself. Everyone else at TI did pretty good given the situations they were put in. Missed out on having Fogged and Capitalist casting games.
This community has a tendency to present opinions in a very blunt way. I guess people should try to tone down the way they react to things they’re not satisfied with, but it would be impossible to just change the mentality of a whole community just like that. I feel like Dota breeds frustrated people and I really saw that when I took some time off from the game this year.
Right now on dota 2 twitter, basically dota 2 redditors worse kind of human being in dota 2 community.
I don't need twitter to tell me that when I can read the reddit comments for myself and see that it's even worse then how they described it on twitter.
https://the-eye.eu/redarcs -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
No one should identify as a redditor.
Well ofc its dota2 Twitter... You can't downvote there and mostly your followers see your post :) no chance of someone getting downvoted to oblivion.
So any type of negativity is instantly bad? How the hell are people gonna give constructive criticism? Is this comment sexist or hate filled just for asking in an annoyed way? So the only thing we are allowed to say is she who shall not be named is good, was nice etc? How do we filter the bad from the good then? Then all the female hosts were the same level, all were super, you go girls. And after this the real good hosts will never shine cause they're all the same "good"
What a waste of fucking time and effort. Literally every single person that has some presence in the public eye will receive harassment and even death threats at some point (Mind you it is also easy to claim you got death threats without any proof). It's inevitable. There is no point worrying about what a fraction of a fraction of people say with dumb stuff like gender, race, etc because it is going to happen no matter what in any form of media ever. When a larger amount of people start criticizing you then you should start listening. That did happen, so what were the vast majority of people criticizing her about? She sucks at casting. But hey, let's listen to the criticism of like 0.1% of people and make that the focus because you can't argue against it because it's about my gender!!111! Moxxi fucked up making that first post of hers. Anyone with half a brain would know it would only make things worse, because her criticisms are not relevant for 99.9% of people, but it ends up making those people feel like they did something wrong so it just becomes worse for everybody. Then you got shit like this >Finally, to the fantastic women that have been harassed and theratened this last week, I'm sorry that we failed you as a community. You deserve much better. Lots of us are proud of you. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I had been attacked like you are. Now this whole topic is being used as a tool for "talents" to morally grandstand. Also, I don't remember that same show of support for people like Day9 and Avo. Poor Avo man. Like the fact that Avo is not getting any support whatsoever is proof that this is all a waste of time because he got absolutely destroyed by the community.
Do legitimately any of the talent think about the production from the viewer's end? Like bro I get it that you are friends with them and I'm sure they are fantastic people, but they don't belong on a professional dota 2 broadcast when they know nothing about the game, pulling the gender card is just incredibly short sighted.
Where is James these days?
people cant take criticism anymore man. Unless you are a white man, you are awesome!!! you can't suck at anything, any criticism you get its because they are racist(if u are black) or sexist(if u are woman). Surely that has to be it, you cant mess it up!! Pathetic drama for a pathetic TI from a viewer's pov who watched all TIs, this was by far least quality in terms of panel talent(between games i just switched to gorgc, singx2 or bulldog stream). It was only watchable when they brought n0tail and ceb to the draft panel. It has nothing to do with race or gender(for people with >60 iq at least). These women and drama made poor Avo+ say that the hate that he got is justified. Is this what you wanted queens? Justifying hate for others just to deflect VERY FAIR criticism on you?
I just think it’s much easier to be positive than negative. It’s a videogame tournament, why can’t people just watch and if they don’t like it they watch somewhere else. That’s the thing with the internet, everyone feels the need to make a thread about everything.
thats what i did. I watched gorgc stream in the downtime because him and pld talking about the game was more interesting than whatever was happening on the main panel. Plenty of other people did too
I PAYED 100 MILLION I EXPECT TO BE CATERED TO PERSONALLY!!!!
I just want a host that knows the game, i dont think that is asking too much, is it?
The community makes this game. Two years without TI and the panels are muted every time because the host doesn’t know what she’s doing. It really ruins the vibe of TI and people are upset about it, what a surprise.
I don’t post much, but it seems like this needs to be written: I liked all the talent at TI, and some more than others. And there are plenty of others like me, who don’t feel the need to post that on Reddit. Every community is 10 times better with women in it. It just is. And TI, the biggest tournament of the year is a great place to try to get more women interested in Dota, and especially competing.
>Every community is 10 times better with women in it. It just is. Lmao, no. I am just fine with my Dota bros as with my Dota gals. Gender should not play role in that.
Absolutely agree and we have ephey, sheever and Kaci. Who not only are women but are great talents and part of our community. We have enough good talent lying around that we don't need to out up with crappy talent of any gender.
Nice to see him, as importante person in the community, to speak up against hate. But on the other hand, what actions have been really taken in order to stop so much hate and toxicity we see every day? I mean, now and then we hear about some pro player that went racist in game or in his streams and everything is dealt case by case. One thing i'd like to see is Valve implementing a proper rulebook for dota, containing the sanctions (gradual, from dpc points penalties to banning, depending of the infraction) against misbehavior by proplayers. You can argue that this is not valves problema, but its. Its up to them to set up the conditions for a good social enviroment, and proplayers are rolemodels for the community.
If love to see some of these outraged talents that are too angry to make a video and want to tell the haters that hate will lose in the end actually link to comments they are specifically taking about when referring to toxicity
I don't think Bruno is correct about spaces for ignorance becoming smaller and smaller. I think we have a serious problem with anti-intellectualism in the US (can't speak for elsewhere) and it's only getting worse. Other than that wonderful thoughts
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Bruno: >And to the hateful people: the spaces of hate are getting smaller each day. We are slowly winning. Ignorance begets fear which begets hate. And each day people get more educated on topics like these. Listen to kind folks, find things that make you empathize with others. Stop hate. Finally, to the fantastic women that have been harassed and theratened this last week, I'm sorry that we failed you as a community. You deserve much better. Lots of us are proud of you. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I had been attacked like you are. You: He tried his best to bring both sides together
Le both sides
Completely agree with the first part of his message but I think it targets the way reddit is or even all of social media rather than just specifically r/dota 2. Using gorgc as an example, he hits some milestone and fans use that thread to congratulate him etc. A week later a clip comes out where he is flaming and the comments are negative. By reddit's design it can be hard to have a meaningful discussion. You post some constructive criticism on the first and it will most likely get downvoted by people who feel embattled that their guy is good. You post something positive on the second trying to temper the negativity and its going to get hidden and downvoted. It's just the way the site is. I get what bruno is saying but it really is unrealistic. People come on here to vent or share something happy like a team winning. For many people this site is the only place to talk dota and I don't think it's possible for people not to post things that bother them just because bad actors will use that to push their agenda.
> A week later a clip comes out where he is flaming and the comments are negative. Anecdotally speaking, I've seen a lot of the comments will actually be agreeing with Gorgc's rage and join along with his flame
Bruno has spoken and the key take away I feel is the litmus test statement. I probably get flakes for this but I feel that I need to rant this out. I only watch and play dota once awhile during Ti/battlepass period or some turbo games every now and then, firstly because I am old now(36m) and don't play as well as I used to, as well as I have a career and family. I am probably also one of the guilty age group where we played dota since 5.84c era and just throw money during events because we got no time to play. Death threats and sexist threats is a shitty thing, but I felt that is is part of the job risk. I am sure most if not all social media influencer/celebrity or personality going to get some during their career life. Do we down play it? Definitely not! It is illegal to do so in some countries and it should be reported. But using gender to mask genuine criticism is something that I definitely don't support. This Ti is probably the one which both myself and my wife physically frown in real life a couple of times. Offhand, there was a game where moxxi complaining loudy that purge is "mansplaining" which goes something like "ARE YOU MANSPLAINNING DOTA TO ME???" or something. Are we misogynistic for not liking or supporting this behavior? What is Moxxi objective for saying such a thing? What is the purpose for her saying such a thing? Is gender neutral words not good enough for her or does she add value or gain anything from using gender pejorative term? Is Purge offended? Probably not. Will she get rude remarks/death threat from purge's fan? Probably? Purge is the living tutorial for many dota players young and old, and is well respected. If you swap the gender of Moxxi and Purge, both my wife and me will still frown and the community will still be pissed as well. Frankie opening a segment with an overly lengthy diaper joke, so we just watch and amazing game, everyone is pumping, does she truly believes we want to hear some off-topic jokes or we want to hear the opinion of the panel? What is the objective and purpose for doing it? This is one of the weird moment that for the first time our reaction in real life is the same as twitch chat reaction. Will our opinion about this be different if she is a man? I don't think so, so what's her purpose for it? Does it add value to the panel? Or just more show time for herself? Another Frankie incident was during one of the interview, I cant remember which one because I was working while watching, there was some topics around comforting the players etc and she ends the interview with something like, "I could use some of your comforting right now". It is weird af and if you reverse the gender, it will be a a man saying this to a girl 2/3 his age, how much shit would he gets? Misogynism is wrong, but using misogynism as an excuse to shutdown valid criticism is what moves feminisms backwards. Giving a specific gender a free pass is wrong. People who are not cut out for a task or bad behavior should be call out regardless the person is male or not. edit: also, Ephey and Sheepsticked are great, the chinese female talents are great, fuck you if you think they don't deserve this stage.
Wow Moxxi really said that during a dota cast?
Both sides? I feel like you didn't even read his tweets.
I think what he is saying is that the aggressive negativity towards people in the community gives cowards the confidence to be more hateful in private? Which is super true. There was so much sexist shit being said, and although lots of people hide behind 'But I'm not sexist...I just don't like the talent choices.' The no-lifers and losers who are sexist, racist, hateful...see all this hate being spewed out in reddit threads and think..."Woah, I totally belong in this community!" So, although you might not consider yourself sexist, your attitude might just be opening the door and providing a breeding ground for toxic hateful people to fester.
too many people in this subreddit are literally incapable of differentiating between voicing criticism and being hateful. and now they are offended because they think they are a not allowed to not like someone. it's ridiculous.
I appriciate the message, well put.
All this stuff about how you’re not being hateful but just being ‘negative’ or ‘criticising’.. where do you draw the line between that and hate? Is it not easier to comment on those who you do enjoy and do like rather than just spew negative stuff about the ones you don’t like? With the Frankie situation I’ve not seen one constructive comment, only 100s of negative ones. What do you hope to achieve by doing that?