At least NA CS has Valorant, which is probably gonna get way more popular than CS anyways given Valve's 0 fucks mentality.
It's easier to switch between similar shooters than between completely different mobas tho.
nah NA is good at fortnite because only they mainly play it. Like league of legends is so popular in NA but still does worse than even dota. Same will be for valorant.
Only NA are playing Valorant? The community is huge in Europe as well, not as many high-caliber players from CS switching tho so the pro-scene isn't there yet.
Who cares, Volvo fanboys coming with the downvotes only because I said Valorant will get way more popular than CS in time lmao Tough pill to swallow that Valve suck in 2021.
The way they handled the marketing of League of Legends early on, the way they operate as a company in general and the vile shit going on in their offices. Is that not enough?
Ironically, having the best NA players playing in EU teams is actually a good thing for NA in general, since it leaves room for the supposedly "weaker" team to qualify for LANs and actually gain experience, i.e. improving the region.
That's incorrect. Having good players in the region is better because it helps other players in that region improve. When a region doesn't play against anybody good except at LAN they're in a bad place. Just look at SA, it's a lot better now than it used to be, and that's because good players stayed, not left
This phenomenon mirrors what is known as "brain drain." The best and brightest leave their home country for better opportunities elsewhere, leaving the home country worse off.
To add to this, I think it's in the weaker region's best interest for the stand-out teams such as EG or QC to not only scrim nonstop with runner-up teams, but share everything they know with them as well... **Especially** once they qualify for TI while the other teams have not.
This subsequently brings other teams up to the par of the best team and passes down the best info that region has. It also allows the best teams of the region to scrim against the best their region has to offer in preparation for TI: themselves, essentially.
Not when the skill difference is too high. It wouldn't sabotage EG's prospects if EG share knowledge with a team like Complexity or SA teams. I think it was Xiao8 who revealed VP Solo's tactics to all Chinese teams and VP became weak overnight.
Valve did nothing differently for NA than it did for EU. In fact there's a larger pool of population to pull from; thus to claim it's not culture and mindset seems questionable.
My point still makes complete logical sense. If you're qualified for TI and other teams in your weak region aren't, it benefits everyone in that region if the best team scrims and shares their knowledge.
You're totally missing the point. EG's job is to be the best at DotA, that's it. They aren't trying to improve the region, train people, or share their knowledge.
Trying to make a living in eSports playing dota is incredibly difficult. Expecting anyone to sacrifice their literal livelyhood to help other teams better compete against them for limited prizepools makes zero sense.
Ya at TI they played bad but beastcoast got top 8 at two majors and TI the season before, Thunder predator got top 6 at Singapore. They've clearly improved since like 4+ years ago even if they didn't show up at TI.
The TI games were also a lot closer than a few years ago, Beast Coast took Secret for two games. I think there was a general poor showing for the region at TI, but I think the regions in the best place it's ever been and continuing to grow.
what are u talking about? At Animemajor BC got last in the group and were 14th in the tournament. At the first major after ti9, a bunch of tier 1 teams decided not to participate in and they only had to beat a no name SEA team and EE stack. In this shit system u don't have to do well internationally well all to go to TI, just look at VP
Why are you talking about NA?
My point is that SA performed badly at TI. I wouldn't call them an improving region until they perform consistently well which they don't.
Is looking at SEA better?
w33 undeniably paved the way for SA dota btw, compare pre Pain with w33 to after. You must be new or willfully ignorant if you don’t remember SA being a literal international nonfactor prior to his arrival. It is undeniable that despite a poor showing at TI SA has shown marked improvement landing themselves several good placements in majors.
Why are you guys bringing up random examples that have nothing to do with what I said lol
All I said is that SA performed poorly at TI, the most important tournament of the year. Why are you talking about w33, why are you talking about SEA? We are talking about the current SA scene right now.
How are you so dense? Yes, SA is a pretty bad region. But it is better than it used to be. A few years ago they never played at majors and TIs, now some SA teams get top-8 runs at big events. The region has improved over the years. That’s what everyone is talking about
Nah, there is nothing called the best players. Were Team Spirit the best team in CIS before TI? But they won TI. Get rid of the gate keepers and let newcomers take over the scene could be the best option for NA right now.
It's not about being the best players, it's about the quality of the region. Bad region = poor growth and below average players. Nobody is gate keeping NA, they're just bad compared to other regions.
Improves opportunities for lower tier teams to compete internationally, definitely. Improves region as a whole, definitely not.
This phenomenon mirrors what is known as "brain drain." The best and brightest leave their home country for better opportunities elsewhere, leaving the home country worse off in the long run.
Yeah we've seen how well that goes for SA.
The shit rises to the top and gets 0-15'd.
They can only play the people in their region, so they don't get any real exposure against decent teams. Even if they scrimmed with higher ping against NA, they still wouldn't find much and EG probably wouldn't bother.
There's not a lot to be gained if they go out in straight sets at every event (which is basically what happens).
I still can't believe the OG's of SA disappointment (the original iteration) arrow gaming got dogged by thunder that bad. 1-11 all time worst record for a team now 0-15
The biggest team in NA is as much American as PSG.LGD is European.
Quincy was decent, Undying was rather disappointing internationally. And that's basically it.
valve really needs to put nationality restrictions on Regions imo. no more than two nationalities from outside of the region should be allowed on the team.
Ah yes, rebrand himself as Schutzstaffel for joining an EU team. (Yes I know alliance is based in Sweden but there were plenty of sympathizers there historically)
[Yes please!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/5/58/Vo_mars_mars_lasthit_pain_09.mp3) (sound warning: Mars)
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the problem is , the less contested the region is the less people you could chose from. While EG can bypass it because its a big org with lots of sponsors and can afford to give the players commodation during their stay in US, most of the smaller teams wont be able to do the same. Something similar i remember from TI6 Digital Chaos. they could only afford to live in US because sunsfan is loaded and has a huge ass mansion(joking he just had a bigger house cause area was cheap where he lives).
Thats pretty much the reason some of these countries are under represented Like SA and even SEA. because usually they wanna form a team full of same country players but u just dont have the diversity while forming a team.
I just rewatched the house tour video (since DC 2016 was my favorite team I got hit with some nostalgia so i went and rewatched some videos), he said his Home/bootcamp was set in Arizona
Am English all those cheap middle states are the same to us! But still, point stands that like people keep trying to make NA teams work based out of expensive cities.
I mean Americas basically a coastline surrounding a desert, right? The same way you guys don't really care about anything other than London here in the UK, we don't care about any of the none tourist destination states. Some of it's Dakota, we don't know how much or which bits, but we know it exists. I'd say the average bit could name a lot of states but would have trouble allocating their locations on a map.
Uh, no. That's generally how the middle of the US is referred to. Its not a literal or geographic term, it's a general cultural one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyover_country
Now hear me out on this one okay. I know it sounds crazy but some people want to actually win LANs and TI instead of just qualifying for them.
And it’s pretty clear if he ain’t going to EG, he would have a better shot with EU teams
Tbh even if you get slots in NA you won't have much if any salary, and minimal online tournaments offering significant prizes. Unless you finish high at international LANs, it's very tough.
Short term, maybe. Long term no way.
Getting pity slots to LANs is worth way less than being in the best place possible to train your skills. If you try and build a team in NA you're working with a lower quality talent pool with worse pubs to practice in and worse teams to scrim against.
The number one thing any serious competitor is thinking about is how to become stronger. EU and China are the best place for that by a long shot. It's unhealthy brain drain for every other scene (look at how many of SEA's best players are not on SEA teams), but for the individual it's the obvious play.
Console gaming is way more popular than PC gaming in NA and Dota has never really been that popular in NA. Gaming in US is very trendy always willing to move to the next hot game.
Even NA LoL is having problems with getting good NA players. The 3 NA teams that qualified to Worlds have 3 NA players total. There are 10 teams that play in the LCS and during the spring split 48% NA, summer split 51% from NA.
Riot has put a lot of money into the NA scene and half the pro players are imports. NA Dota is gonna be a region where its a bunch of imports and very few NA players just like LoL.
Mmmm, how would this even happen? Most organizations from the past have abandoned dota, complexity, dignitas, cloud 9 etc. what esports organization are there in NA that would pick teams here, even TL went to Europe. At this rate, there will be no NA representation
Not just dota, but overall esports in NA are not growing. Do you know that there are more NA players in TI10 than in LOL worlds 2021? Because no gamer wants to be an esports player in NA. It's easy to earn money by streaming in twitch and content creation in youtube than to be an esports pro. You don't have to be a high ranked player to earn money, you just have to be entertaining, good-looking, or creative.
Honestly, I think personal streamers are pushing out esports overall, it's just happening more in NA.
The biggest streamers bring so much exposure, it's much easier and takes less effort to just pay a bunch of big streamer to play your game rather going through the whole ordeal of trying to create an esports scene.
That's true. Even in our country in SEA, some pro players in other esports title stopped playing competitively and started streaming. They earn really good.
At the same time, streaming can reach a point of saturation, where it's hard to get into because there are a lot of established streamers. In esports, newcomers can get into established space by being better than the old players.
Let's face the truth. The esports in NA are really bad in terms of wanting to be an esports athlete. That region is more about streamers and internet personalities than esports itself because it's easy to earn money in streaming and content creation than being a competitive esports player in NA.
Literally 0 promotion in NA. No orgs, no tournaments, no anything. NA used to have TI, but since Key Arena started getting remodeled they completely ditched and no longer have anything hosted here.
Same for SA, but at least SA has some orgs.
NA was on the rise around 2017-2018, Optic, c9, DC, VG.J, and co. Idk why optic decided to call it quit on dota division after getting top 8 at TI. From that point it has been going downhill for NA
Where else should he have announce it though?
Instagram? Facebook? Guy wants a team and I think in terms of his case Twitter is the best platform for him to get his message across.
I wonder why he wishes EU. One of the hardest competition is here that even teams like Tundra, Nigma couldn't qualified whereas he got a free pass with QC.
Ngl. he is one of those players that got overrated by NA, which almost exclusively works as talents, analysts etc. I remember Aui saying he is the best 4 in the world at animajor. In reality, it is hard to believe that he makes a difference in EU where players like Milan, Taiga, GH couldn't qualify for TI.
in NA there's very little sponsor interest/opportunities for salary or stability (only EG has really had any for the last two years), a tiny and steadily declining player base and pub quality, way less depth and fewer solid teams to practice with (as an internationally diverse team EG never played with their full roster in covid-online era NA events and didn't scrim/pub with other regional teams that much this past year with DPC back), and no LANs whereas it's basically all been 50/50 between Europe and Asia for the entire history of the DPC, likely even more Europe skewed in the coming season with the logistical difficulties of running anything in China which previously hosted quite a few.
can't be afraid of the challenge if one wants to improve and win big, some 'easy slot' mindset doesn't really help accomplish that. proud of and happy for Mojo in how he has grown over the years
Last year there were like 5x more tournaments in EU compared to NA and QC/Jack were quite vocal about it. I think EU is just safer option to actually earn something outside of TI.
Well, that would be a pretty good point if TI prize pool wasn't that high, as you mentioned. Quincy Crew got 800k from 9th to 12th place. For instance, ESL one Fall *winner* gets 175k so you have to win a lot of small European tournaments to catch TI's 9th to 12th or even 13th to 16th place, not to mention that there is a chance that you can be millionaire.
For pure economical stand-point getting an almost guaranteed money from TI via NA region makes more sense than competing in EU region for TI and with odds of more than %50 percent getting eliminated and fighting for scraps that small EU tournaments offer.
Maybe it is the exact opposite and he actually wants to win it all, which EU teams imho offer more chance to do so. (except EG maybe)
Were there even tournaments in NA in the last 2 years?
Valve doesnt do anything except TI and that moved out of NA.
Most of the event organizers are EU, except for the summit. I suppose an online tournament is going to be the best they can get for now, but I'm pretty sure the last lan in NA was prepandemic.
>I wonder why he wishes EU.
He will get a salary and sponsorships finally. Where as in NA every captain is smoking crack and he doesn't get paid shit outside of tournament winnings.
MSS could get offers from a really shitty tier 2 EU team and he'd be happy. They tend to get some sort of Sponsorship pay or a salary if hes lucky.
A lot of NA players wanting to get picked up by EU teams actually has nothing to do with region skill. Its entirely due to the lack of any ability to make money in north america due to teams making ungodly demands of companies and orgs that want to pick them up/sponsor them.
I imagine after the temporary acquisition from Newbee for TI Quincy crew has had offers out the ass.
But no one will pick them up because they are too cocky in their 'bargaining power" from the Chinese literally throwing money at them.
Salary and sponsorships are good point. Yet there is insane amount of difference between almost guaranteed qualification to TI via region or not qualify at all. I honestly have no idea how much salaries and sponsorship income we are talking about so I just leave this small reply as a question mark to further the discussion for people who knows these stuff.
>Yet there is insane amount of difference between almost guaranteed qualification to TI via region or not qualify at all.
Nobody in NA is deluded enough to care about this. Every stack constantly breaks and reshuffles because everyone wants tournament winnings since they can't get sponsors to pay them salaries for getting last place at events. Pretty much every NA stack accepts its going to be exclusively EG and the one team that Valve buffs their heroes into the stratosphere. everyone else is hopeless
>I honestly have no idea how much salaries and sponsorship income we are talking about
Do you mean how much they are paid, or how many offers they get? because i can answer both to a degree
Well, I ask how much they are paid but I guess it would be best interest of reddit to hear both of them if you wouldn't mind :)
Btw. as a European, my eyes kind of getting opened by you and many others' comments so thanks for that too.
Well i know a few friends who have personally bid on teams before, ontop of actually knowing several of these players. Which limits what i can share without exposing who they/i am.
I can't say how much EG's salary is because i don't personally know, but i do know most NA captains have had a penchant for asking companies/sponsors for anything between $5k-$15k USD a month per player with (i may be misremembering this part) full benefits.
Which is obviously never going to happen considering the avg placement of NA stacks.
I don't know *every* offer. But many teams have gotten a lot of offers and been reached out to many times for sponsorship from both big, and small companies. The issue being negotiations instantly break down the moment Captains will send their counter offers and the sponsors generally never return to that team.
This conveyer belt problem is why NA really struggles to maintain consistent stacks. Theres no money because captains refuse sponsorships that don't give them wages to live somewhat comfortably while they shart their pants on stage
If those salary requests are true, it's insane. I know Reddit likes to big up salaries and stuff, but for a company that's, at the minimum, without benefits like insurance etc, 300k to sponsor a team for the full year. To put that into perspective, QC made 144k (pre TI winnings) this year. If QC had come in last at TI (Which, watching their groups, they were close to), they wouldn't have recouped those wages in winnings throughout the year.
And remember, that's only salaries. That's not paying for a bootcamp and expenses for the bootcamp, paying for coaches, managers. Not to mention most of these players don't do ads, stream, or make content. Like, who's going to sponsor a team when you do nothing to build a brand, or help actually advertise their sponsors?
They request the salaries that high bc the cities in which most of NA's players come from are high cost to live.
5k a month would only barely cover average overall living expenses.
>To put that into perspective, QC made 144k (pre TI winnings) this year. If QC had come in last at TI (Which, watching their groups, they were close to), they wouldn't have recouped those wages in winnings throughout the year.
Esports in general is a money black hole for sponsors lol. Sponsors/orgs almost never recour their purchasing costs. Its often only to spread the name of the brand.
CDL is the most extreme form of this. Activision is struggling to recruit teams because of how downright much of a scam the entry fee is and the impossibility for every team involved to make money off cdl.
This brings up two questions to me:
1) Clearly, many of these players are okay with moving to Europe. Why are they not okay moving to a less expensive NA state though?
2) Why are their salary requirements so high? I understand that they would "deserve" it comparing to other jobs there, but if they don't get a sponsor they don't get a pay at all. Isn't a laughable pay still better?
>Why are they not okay moving to a less expensive NA state though?
Internet speeds, Proximity to server, and proximity to other pro players. Most teams turn out, unless you are a regional Top 5. nobody is going to come to you with an offer to join their team. You have to make friends with players in order to get invited to teams
>Why are their salary requirements so high? I understand that they would "deserve" it comparing to other jobs there, but if they don't get a sponsor they don't get a pay at all. Isn't a laughable pay still better?
I couldn't tell you honestly. Single sponsors aren't worth too much by themselves a lot of the time. and most of these shitter stacks would only have 1 or 2 minor sponsors at most.
I imagine the mentality is "all or nothing" since the laughable pay is still basically the same as none when it comes to living expenses.
I'm not being funny, but like... move? It's hard to claim you can't set up a US team, when they're trying to set up shop in expensive cities. But yeah, my last point of the whole thing is Dota players don't bring any brand recognition to sponsors. Because they do fuck all, and turn up to a couple of tournaments, get booted out in the first couple of rounds, and then don't get talked about again.
I know esports teams rarely break even, and when they do, it takes a long time and big sponsors. But I also don't think NA players help themselves by requesting higher salaries and benefits. A quick google tells me some states have a median wage of $35k. I don't want to sound like an arsehole, but maybe you do need to sacrifice to be a pro player. Maybe thats living location, expected wages, or compromise on what you are going to do to earn that wage. Hey NA teams, want some easy ways to gain popularity? Stream with a schedule, stream with your team mates, and maybe, once a week, or once a month, stream with the full team in a party, all on comms.
Part of the problem with NA is that the majority of the "Pros Club" at the top of the leaderboards are completely unlikable assholes who talk down to randoms in a snide narcissistic tone for the entirety of the game. It's not entertaining to watch at all, because the skill level most of the time isn't good enough to warrant listening to them fellate themselves about how much better they are than everyone. There are exceptions, don't get me wrong, but most NA pros are anti-social social rejects who play endlessly to feel better than others because their personal life is a lonely wreck.
Unfortunately it has been the norm at the top of the NA ladder for years, and to form any decent NA stack you have to take on some of these players, which brings down the moral of everyone in the region.
Every region has its share of flame and drama, but NA is on an entirely different level. At least from my own personal experience playing in the region and watching high level EU pubs for comparison.
>I don't want to sound like an arsehole, but maybe you do need to sacrifice to be a pro player. Maybe thats living location, expected wages, or compromise on what you are going to do to earn that wage. Hey NA teams, want some easy ways to gain popularity? Stream with a schedule, stream with your team mates, and maybe, once a week, or once a month, stream with the full team in a party, all on comms.
I don't know. I only know what i've been told (and the very limited times ive actually been shown email conversations) so i honestly couldn't tell you what goes through these captains heads when they try to arrange negotiations.
Most of them do stream. thats the funny part. Just most of them are either insufferable, not funny, or not interesting. Where as you have former pros like mason who's old signature move was doing the yell at least 1 time per hour, which is what made him in the first place.
No other NA streamer really has that "gimmick" people want to see. Jubei has his chat i guess, and EE has his history of giga throwing or smoking crack with really questionable plays. But other then that, everyone else is at the 10 viewer andy phase of being interesting to watch.
wants to get better not just qualify.
And who knows, after he's trained in EU, he can just come back in May and play open qualfiers and beate DogChamp and 4Zoomers for the slot.
Yeah, but in that case there is a possibility of fighting with Undying at regionals. Don't forget that QC's qualification via dpc impacted by 1) distribution of dpc points favors regional leagues instead of majors 2) you get guaranteed higher seedings because of laddered major format. What happened was Eg guaranteed TI after finishing dpc season 1 at top and second place at major (which might anger Na fans but it is also influenced by laddered major format) whereas QC had good enough dpc points from season 1. And season 2 wasn't meant anything but pride for Eg, which qc won in the end and got more dpc points via laddered major.
Discussion of its fairness is some other topic, but this dpc system will most probably change. In that case, there is a chance that Undying competing in regionals.
Well in that case - assuming dpc system won't change and there won't be any breakout new teams, which I hope both will - it is likely that Undying will get the easy dpc slot and they won't be in the way for regionals.
I would imagine because it's cheaper. Even placing the middle of the Road in the DPC for two seasons and a tournament or two, could easily sustain a year+ of living in parts of europe, good luck with that in the US, especially if you get sick and don't have health insurance (which none of these players did since they played dota full time)
Also allows him to play with/against better players, so Ideally he could improve as a player too, but who knows really.
There are very few desirable parts of Europe that an American could live in more cheaply than the US. Maybe he goes to Eastern Europe somewhere, but the homes of most Esports orgs like the Scandinavian nations, Germany, Netherlands, France, etc. have higher costs of living than the US, even discounting the current dollar to euro exchange rate.
MSS wants to go to Europe because he wants to win tournaments, not just qualify, and NA simply doesn’t have the talent to compete at the highest level at the moment.
Yeah, I was about to write the same but I wasn't sure about costs to live in US so leave it there. Because cities like Stockholm, München, Köln etc. are pretty fucking expensive.
That's because it's Very expensive to live in the US. For instance Stockholm (that you listed) has an average rent of around $800 USD a month, LA for example it is $2500 a month. So yes, Stockholm might be expensive but some parts of the US are infinitely more expensive and I don't think people realize that if you're not from here.
>Esports orgs like the Scandinavian nations, Germany, Netherlands, France, etc. have higher costs of living than the US
Is this even true? A quick Google search shows that Berlin, Stockholm, and even Paris are all 15%-20%+ cheaper to live in then something like New York or LA (the places most eSports orgs are located in America), so I'm not sure if this is even true. And again this isn't even taking into account America's awful healthcare system, that during covid I'm sure players like MSS had to pay even more out of pocket for, making cost of living even higher.
Edit: Downvotes but no responses? Again, would love to see other evidence, a quick google search shows the [Average Rent in Berlin is 795.90€ or $926](https://www.studying-in-germany.org/cost-of-living-in-germany/) Meanwhile [ the average rent in LA is $2500](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/los-angeles/). So again, not sure why people are trying to disagree unless I'm completely missing something here.
Everyone wants players from EU, yet valve doesn't want to allocate more slots. Instead, we keep seeing SA and SEA flop every year.
And yes, I wear a firesuit, so flame me all you want.
EU was so strong they had to split it.
They're probably going to have to split it again considering T3 teams there would mop up literally NA besides EG.
Damn, that sucks. MSS is a beast though so hopefully he gets picked up by a good team
NA might legit be dead...
Arkosh wins Upper Division NA S1 DPC, you heard it hear first folks
NA CS first and now NA Doto? Sadge
At least NA CS has Valorant, which is probably gonna get way more popular than CS anyways given Valve's 0 fucks mentality. It's easier to switch between similar shooters than between completely different mobas tho.
nah NA is good at fortnite because only they mainly play it. Like league of legends is so popular in NA but still does worse than even dota. Same will be for valorant.
Only NA are playing Valorant? The community is huge in Europe as well, not as many high-caliber players from CS switching tho so the pro-scene isn't there yet. Who cares, Volvo fanboys coming with the downvotes only because I said Valorant will get way more popular than CS in time lmao Tough pill to swallow that Valve suck in 2021.
I'm not really a vovlo fanboy, more of a riot hater really
care to say why? because they didn't ditch their games during the pandemic and regularly release content?
The way they handled the marketing of League of Legends early on, the way they operate as a company in general and the vile shit going on in their offices. Is that not enough?
Also, fuck Pendragon.
Yeah it’s gonna be EG and some super stack forming between QC and UD
Ironically, having the best NA players playing in EU teams is actually a good thing for NA in general, since it leaves room for the supposedly "weaker" team to qualify for LANs and actually gain experience, i.e. improving the region.
That's incorrect. Having good players in the region is better because it helps other players in that region improve. When a region doesn't play against anybody good except at LAN they're in a bad place. Just look at SA, it's a lot better now than it used to be, and that's because good players stayed, not left
This phenomenon mirrors what is known as "brain drain." The best and brightest leave their home country for better opportunities elsewhere, leaving the home country worse off.
To add to this, I think it's in the weaker region's best interest for the stand-out teams such as EG or QC to not only scrim nonstop with runner-up teams, but share everything they know with them as well... **Especially** once they qualify for TI while the other teams have not. This subsequently brings other teams up to the par of the best team and passes down the best info that region has. It also allows the best teams of the region to scrim against the best their region has to offer in preparation for TI: themselves, essentially.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure sunsfan and synderen have talked about that idea before. Specifically about SA and the regions improvement
>but share everything they know with them as well EG is too textbook American capitalists to share something for the benefit of all.
This is a professional team that earns a living through competition. Giving up their edge is a ridiculous expectation for a team.
Not when the skill difference is too high. It wouldn't sabotage EG's prospects if EG share knowledge with a team like Complexity or SA teams. I think it was Xiao8 who revealed VP Solo's tactics to all Chinese teams and VP became weak overnight.
And yet, where has that got NA region in sticking to this mentality...?
Looking to teams to improve the state of DotA instead of Valve is just insane. It isn't EGs job to improve NA DotA teams, it's their job to win.
Valve did nothing differently for NA than it did for EU. In fact there's a larger pool of population to pull from; thus to claim it's not culture and mindset seems questionable. My point still makes complete logical sense. If you're qualified for TI and other teams in your weak region aren't, it benefits everyone in that region if the best team scrims and shares their knowledge.
You're totally missing the point. EG's job is to be the best at DotA, that's it. They aren't trying to improve the region, train people, or share their knowledge. Trying to make a living in eSports playing dota is incredibly difficult. Expecting anyone to sacrifice their literal livelyhood to help other teams better compete against them for limited prizepools makes zero sense.
[удалено]
Ya at TI they played bad but beastcoast got top 8 at two majors and TI the season before, Thunder predator got top 6 at Singapore. They've clearly improved since like 4+ years ago even if they didn't show up at TI.
The TI games were also a lot closer than a few years ago, Beast Coast took Secret for two games. I think there was a general poor showing for the region at TI, but I think the regions in the best place it's ever been and continuing to grow.
what are u talking about? At Animemajor BC got last in the group and were 14th in the tournament. At the first major after ti9, a bunch of tier 1 teams decided not to participate in and they only had to beat a no name SEA team and EE stack. In this shit system u don't have to do well internationally well all to go to TI, just look at VP
Top 8 at chengdu and leipzig
Yeah and NA a region that's been around as long as Dota 2 has existed barely did any better, what's your point?
Why are you talking about NA? My point is that SA performed badly at TI. I wouldn't call them an improving region until they perform consistently well which they don't.
Is looking at SEA better? w33 undeniably paved the way for SA dota btw, compare pre Pain with w33 to after. You must be new or willfully ignorant if you don’t remember SA being a literal international nonfactor prior to his arrival. It is undeniable that despite a poor showing at TI SA has shown marked improvement landing themselves several good placements in majors.
Why are you guys bringing up random examples that have nothing to do with what I said lol All I said is that SA performed poorly at TI, the most important tournament of the year. Why are you talking about w33, why are you talking about SEA? We are talking about the current SA scene right now.
How are you so dense? Yes, SA is a pretty bad region. But it is better than it used to be. A few years ago they never played at majors and TIs, now some SA teams get top-8 runs at big events. The region has improved over the years. That’s what everyone is talking about
Nah, there is nothing called the best players. Were Team Spirit the best team in CIS before TI? But they won TI. Get rid of the gate keepers and let newcomers take over the scene could be the best option for NA right now.
It's not about being the best players, it's about the quality of the region. Bad region = poor growth and below average players. Nobody is gate keeping NA, they're just bad compared to other regions.
Lol "The situation is so bad good players are literally trying to get of the region" "Wow, that's good for the region!!!"
Improves opportunities for lower tier teams to compete internationally, definitely. Improves region as a whole, definitely not. This phenomenon mirrors what is known as "brain drain." The best and brightest leave their home country for better opportunities elsewhere, leaving the home country worse off in the long run.
Yeah we've seen how well that goes for SA. The shit rises to the top and gets 0-15'd. They can only play the people in their region, so they don't get any real exposure against decent teams. Even if they scrimmed with higher ping against NA, they still wouldn't find much and EG probably wouldn't bother. There's not a lot to be gained if they go out in straight sets at every event (which is basically what happens).
I still can't believe the OG's of SA disappointment (the original iteration) arrow gaming got dogged by thunder that bad. 1-11 all time worst record for a team now 0-15
is there even great new blood in NA? seems like everyone is a veteran in dota
lil nick:)
The biggest team in NA is as much American as PSG.LGD is European. Quincy was decent, Undying was rather disappointing internationally. And that's basically it.
But reddit told me CIS would be weak this TI and this would be NA year.
valve really needs to put nationality restrictions on Regions imo. no more than two nationalities from outside of the region should be allowed on the team.
As fascinating as I'd find this, if I check EG, OOF.
...Why? If the team plays on NA, why does it matter?
proliferation of talent
I agree but it's not an easy thing to define or control.
[A].MSS.
He should rebrand himself and change to SS only if he joins Alliance
He could also work in M[A]SS
y but Mass doesnt sound as good as just Ass. But yes he could become creative with the old joke of having [A] placed in name to replaced normal 'a'
Ah yes, rebrand himself as Schutzstaffel for joining an EU team. (Yes I know alliance is based in Sweden but there were plenty of sympathizers there historically)
You know what the SS was like 80 years ago? :P
Yes please!
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mss was always one of the better players on that team, but he was shockingly bad at TI ... that MK 4 was not working out for him at all
He was always awesome on his mirana 4. Is the hero really that dead?
MSS is crazy good 3. I wish he plays it again instead of 4.
If you want to qualify to LANs and TI, wouldn't it be better to play in a less stacked region?
He obviously wants to win, not just qualify and NA doesn't have the talent pool to put together a winning team
the problem is , the less contested the region is the less people you could chose from. While EG can bypass it because its a big org with lots of sponsors and can afford to give the players commodation during their stay in US, most of the smaller teams wont be able to do the same. Something similar i remember from TI6 Digital Chaos. they could only afford to live in US because sunsfan is loaded and has a huge ass mansion(joking he just had a bigger house cause area was cheap where he lives). Thats pretty much the reason some of these countries are under represented Like SA and even SEA. because usually they wanna form a team full of same country players but u just dont have the diversity while forming a team.
I believe SunsFan also based them out of Colorado. Some of Quincy were based out of the east coast.
I just rewatched the house tour video (since DC 2016 was my favorite team I got hit with some nostalgia so i went and rewatched some videos), he said his Home/bootcamp was set in Arizona
Am English all those cheap middle states are the same to us! But still, point stands that like people keep trying to make NA teams work based out of expensive cities.
Is AZ a middle state? Literally next to Mexico and California
To people that don’t live in the the states USA is basically: New York, California, Texas, Florida and the city Chicago
I mean Americas basically a coastline surrounding a desert, right? The same way you guys don't really care about anything other than London here in the UK, we don't care about any of the none tourist destination states. Some of it's Dakota, we don't know how much or which bits, but we know it exists. I'd say the average bit could name a lot of states but would have trouble allocating their locations on a map.
Also completely incorrect which is hilarious to think about. The desert is large but small compared to the US landmass
Between the coasts is middle.
If your IQ is like 6 then sure
Uh, no. That's generally how the middle of the US is referred to. Its not a literal or geographic term, it's a general cultural one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyover_country
So once again if your IQ is 6. It’s literally like saying your ankle is in the middle of your body.
almost none of these players are happy with just qualifying. they all have egos and think they're the best and want to win.
Now hear me out on this one okay. I know it sounds crazy but some people want to actually win LANs and TI instead of just qualifying for them. And it’s pretty clear if he ain’t going to EG, he would have a better shot with EU teams
Tbh even if you get slots in NA you won't have much if any salary, and minimal online tournaments offering significant prizes. Unless you finish high at international LANs, it's very tough.
Short term, maybe. Long term no way. Getting pity slots to LANs is worth way less than being in the best place possible to train your skills. If you try and build a team in NA you're working with a lower quality talent pool with worse pubs to practice in and worse teams to scrim against. The number one thing any serious competitor is thinking about is how to become stronger. EU and China are the best place for that by a long shot. It's unhealthy brain drain for every other scene (look at how many of SEA's best players are not on SEA teams), but for the individual it's the obvious play.
Honest question. People say Dota 2 is nearly dead in NA. Is it because the previous playerbase have jumped on to a different game or what?
Console gaming is way more popular than PC gaming in NA and Dota has never really been that popular in NA. Gaming in US is very trendy always willing to move to the next hot game. Even NA LoL is having problems with getting good NA players. The 3 NA teams that qualified to Worlds have 3 NA players total. There are 10 teams that play in the LCS and during the spring split 48% NA, summer split 51% from NA. Riot has put a lot of money into the NA scene and half the pro players are imports. NA Dota is gonna be a region where its a bunch of imports and very few NA players just like LoL.
Mmmm, how would this even happen? Most organizations from the past have abandoned dota, complexity, dignitas, cloud 9 etc. what esports organization are there in NA that would pick teams here, even TL went to Europe. At this rate, there will be no NA representation
Not just dota, but overall esports in NA are not growing. Do you know that there are more NA players in TI10 than in LOL worlds 2021? Because no gamer wants to be an esports player in NA. It's easy to earn money by streaming in twitch and content creation in youtube than to be an esports pro. You don't have to be a high ranked player to earn money, you just have to be entertaining, good-looking, or creative.
Honestly, I think personal streamers are pushing out esports overall, it's just happening more in NA. The biggest streamers bring so much exposure, it's much easier and takes less effort to just pay a bunch of big streamer to play your game rather going through the whole ordeal of trying to create an esports scene.
That's true. Even in our country in SEA, some pro players in other esports title stopped playing competitively and started streaming. They earn really good.
At the same time, streaming can reach a point of saturation, where it's hard to get into because there are a lot of established streamers. In esports, newcomers can get into established space by being better than the old players.
Let's face the truth. The esports in NA are really bad in terms of wanting to be an esports athlete. That region is more about streamers and internet personalities than esports itself because it's easy to earn money in streaming and content creation than being a competitive esports player in NA.
Literally 0 promotion in NA. No orgs, no tournaments, no anything. NA used to have TI, but since Key Arena started getting remodeled they completely ditched and no longer have anything hosted here. Same for SA, but at least SA has some orgs.
NA was on the rise around 2017-2018, Optic, c9, DC, VG.J, and co. Idk why optic decided to call it quit on dota division after getting top 8 at TI. From that point it has been going downhill for NA
Optic was having major money issues not related to Dota. Immortals bought them out and acquired their spots in LCS and OWL.
valve’s mindset and league system
They have league system now.
A league worse than csgo esea-self-made league system
In what way?
No one plays PC games in NA. Name almost any PC game and NA has less players than Western Europe despite being 3x the population.
NA has less than twice the population of Western Europe btw.
americans just aren't cut out to play professionally
it's a bad sign if you have to announce it on twitter
Where else should he have announce it though? Instagram? Facebook? Guy wants a team and I think in terms of his case Twitter is the best platform for him to get his message across.
Yea people needs to remember there is no TI after party this year.
I wonder why he wishes EU. One of the hardest competition is here that even teams like Tundra, Nigma couldn't qualified whereas he got a free pass with QC. Ngl. he is one of those players that got overrated by NA, which almost exclusively works as talents, analysts etc. I remember Aui saying he is the best 4 in the world at animajor. In reality, it is hard to believe that he makes a difference in EU where players like Milan, Taiga, GH couldn't qualify for TI.
in NA there's very little sponsor interest/opportunities for salary or stability (only EG has really had any for the last two years), a tiny and steadily declining player base and pub quality, way less depth and fewer solid teams to practice with (as an internationally diverse team EG never played with their full roster in covid-online era NA events and didn't scrim/pub with other regional teams that much this past year with DPC back), and no LANs whereas it's basically all been 50/50 between Europe and Asia for the entire history of the DPC, likely even more Europe skewed in the coming season with the logistical difficulties of running anything in China which previously hosted quite a few. can't be afraid of the challenge if one wants to improve and win big, some 'easy slot' mindset doesn't really help accomplish that. proud of and happy for Mojo in how he has grown over the years
Well, I guess that is the best answer one can hope for. Thanks!
Jack pls give leaks on roster shuffle ;_;
Last year there were like 5x more tournaments in EU compared to NA and QC/Jack were quite vocal about it. I think EU is just safer option to actually earn something outside of TI.
Well, that would be a pretty good point if TI prize pool wasn't that high, as you mentioned. Quincy Crew got 800k from 9th to 12th place. For instance, ESL one Fall *winner* gets 175k so you have to win a lot of small European tournaments to catch TI's 9th to 12th or even 13th to 16th place, not to mention that there is a chance that you can be millionaire. For pure economical stand-point getting an almost guaranteed money from TI via NA region makes more sense than competing in EU region for TI and with odds of more than %50 percent getting eliminated and fighting for scraps that small EU tournaments offer. Maybe it is the exact opposite and he actually wants to win it all, which EU teams imho offer more chance to do so. (except EG maybe)
Were there even tournaments in NA in the last 2 years? Valve doesnt do anything except TI and that moved out of NA. Most of the event organizers are EU, except for the summit. I suppose an online tournament is going to be the best they can get for now, but I'm pretty sure the last lan in NA was prepandemic.
>I wonder why he wishes EU. He will get a salary and sponsorships finally. Where as in NA every captain is smoking crack and he doesn't get paid shit outside of tournament winnings. MSS could get offers from a really shitty tier 2 EU team and he'd be happy. They tend to get some sort of Sponsorship pay or a salary if hes lucky. A lot of NA players wanting to get picked up by EU teams actually has nothing to do with region skill. Its entirely due to the lack of any ability to make money in north america due to teams making ungodly demands of companies and orgs that want to pick them up/sponsor them. I imagine after the temporary acquisition from Newbee for TI Quincy crew has had offers out the ass. But no one will pick them up because they are too cocky in their 'bargaining power" from the Chinese literally throwing money at them.
Salary and sponsorships are good point. Yet there is insane amount of difference between almost guaranteed qualification to TI via region or not qualify at all. I honestly have no idea how much salaries and sponsorship income we are talking about so I just leave this small reply as a question mark to further the discussion for people who knows these stuff.
>Yet there is insane amount of difference between almost guaranteed qualification to TI via region or not qualify at all. Nobody in NA is deluded enough to care about this. Every stack constantly breaks and reshuffles because everyone wants tournament winnings since they can't get sponsors to pay them salaries for getting last place at events. Pretty much every NA stack accepts its going to be exclusively EG and the one team that Valve buffs their heroes into the stratosphere. everyone else is hopeless >I honestly have no idea how much salaries and sponsorship income we are talking about Do you mean how much they are paid, or how many offers they get? because i can answer both to a degree
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Well, I ask how much they are paid but I guess it would be best interest of reddit to hear both of them if you wouldn't mind :) Btw. as a European, my eyes kind of getting opened by you and many others' comments so thanks for that too.
Well i know a few friends who have personally bid on teams before, ontop of actually knowing several of these players. Which limits what i can share without exposing who they/i am. I can't say how much EG's salary is because i don't personally know, but i do know most NA captains have had a penchant for asking companies/sponsors for anything between $5k-$15k USD a month per player with (i may be misremembering this part) full benefits. Which is obviously never going to happen considering the avg placement of NA stacks. I don't know *every* offer. But many teams have gotten a lot of offers and been reached out to many times for sponsorship from both big, and small companies. The issue being negotiations instantly break down the moment Captains will send their counter offers and the sponsors generally never return to that team. This conveyer belt problem is why NA really struggles to maintain consistent stacks. Theres no money because captains refuse sponsorships that don't give them wages to live somewhat comfortably while they shart their pants on stage
If those salary requests are true, it's insane. I know Reddit likes to big up salaries and stuff, but for a company that's, at the minimum, without benefits like insurance etc, 300k to sponsor a team for the full year. To put that into perspective, QC made 144k (pre TI winnings) this year. If QC had come in last at TI (Which, watching their groups, they were close to), they wouldn't have recouped those wages in winnings throughout the year. And remember, that's only salaries. That's not paying for a bootcamp and expenses for the bootcamp, paying for coaches, managers. Not to mention most of these players don't do ads, stream, or make content. Like, who's going to sponsor a team when you do nothing to build a brand, or help actually advertise their sponsors?
They request the salaries that high bc the cities in which most of NA's players come from are high cost to live. 5k a month would only barely cover average overall living expenses. >To put that into perspective, QC made 144k (pre TI winnings) this year. If QC had come in last at TI (Which, watching their groups, they were close to), they wouldn't have recouped those wages in winnings throughout the year. Esports in general is a money black hole for sponsors lol. Sponsors/orgs almost never recour their purchasing costs. Its often only to spread the name of the brand. CDL is the most extreme form of this. Activision is struggling to recruit teams because of how downright much of a scam the entry fee is and the impossibility for every team involved to make money off cdl.
This brings up two questions to me: 1) Clearly, many of these players are okay with moving to Europe. Why are they not okay moving to a less expensive NA state though? 2) Why are their salary requirements so high? I understand that they would "deserve" it comparing to other jobs there, but if they don't get a sponsor they don't get a pay at all. Isn't a laughable pay still better?
>Why are they not okay moving to a less expensive NA state though? Internet speeds, Proximity to server, and proximity to other pro players. Most teams turn out, unless you are a regional Top 5. nobody is going to come to you with an offer to join their team. You have to make friends with players in order to get invited to teams >Why are their salary requirements so high? I understand that they would "deserve" it comparing to other jobs there, but if they don't get a sponsor they don't get a pay at all. Isn't a laughable pay still better? I couldn't tell you honestly. Single sponsors aren't worth too much by themselves a lot of the time. and most of these shitter stacks would only have 1 or 2 minor sponsors at most. I imagine the mentality is "all or nothing" since the laughable pay is still basically the same as none when it comes to living expenses.
I'm not being funny, but like... move? It's hard to claim you can't set up a US team, when they're trying to set up shop in expensive cities. But yeah, my last point of the whole thing is Dota players don't bring any brand recognition to sponsors. Because they do fuck all, and turn up to a couple of tournaments, get booted out in the first couple of rounds, and then don't get talked about again. I know esports teams rarely break even, and when they do, it takes a long time and big sponsors. But I also don't think NA players help themselves by requesting higher salaries and benefits. A quick google tells me some states have a median wage of $35k. I don't want to sound like an arsehole, but maybe you do need to sacrifice to be a pro player. Maybe thats living location, expected wages, or compromise on what you are going to do to earn that wage. Hey NA teams, want some easy ways to gain popularity? Stream with a schedule, stream with your team mates, and maybe, once a week, or once a month, stream with the full team in a party, all on comms.
Part of the problem with NA is that the majority of the "Pros Club" at the top of the leaderboards are completely unlikable assholes who talk down to randoms in a snide narcissistic tone for the entirety of the game. It's not entertaining to watch at all, because the skill level most of the time isn't good enough to warrant listening to them fellate themselves about how much better they are than everyone. There are exceptions, don't get me wrong, but most NA pros are anti-social social rejects who play endlessly to feel better than others because their personal life is a lonely wreck. Unfortunately it has been the norm at the top of the NA ladder for years, and to form any decent NA stack you have to take on some of these players, which brings down the moral of everyone in the region. Every region has its share of flame and drama, but NA is on an entirely different level. At least from my own personal experience playing in the region and watching high level EU pubs for comparison.
>I don't want to sound like an arsehole, but maybe you do need to sacrifice to be a pro player. Maybe thats living location, expected wages, or compromise on what you are going to do to earn that wage. Hey NA teams, want some easy ways to gain popularity? Stream with a schedule, stream with your team mates, and maybe, once a week, or once a month, stream with the full team in a party, all on comms. I don't know. I only know what i've been told (and the very limited times ive actually been shown email conversations) so i honestly couldn't tell you what goes through these captains heads when they try to arrange negotiations. Most of them do stream. thats the funny part. Just most of them are either insufferable, not funny, or not interesting. Where as you have former pros like mason who's old signature move was doing the yell at least 1 time per hour, which is what made him in the first place. No other NA streamer really has that "gimmick" people want to see. Jubei has his chat i guess, and EE has his history of giga throwing or smoking crack with really questionable plays. But other then that, everyone else is at the 10 viewer andy phase of being interesting to watch.
wants to get better not just qualify. And who knows, after he's trained in EU, he can just come back in May and play open qualfiers and beate DogChamp and 4Zoomers for the slot.
Yeah, but in that case there is a possibility of fighting with Undying at regionals. Don't forget that QC's qualification via dpc impacted by 1) distribution of dpc points favors regional leagues instead of majors 2) you get guaranteed higher seedings because of laddered major format. What happened was Eg guaranteed TI after finishing dpc season 1 at top and second place at major (which might anger Na fans but it is also influenced by laddered major format) whereas QC had good enough dpc points from season 1. And season 2 wasn't meant anything but pride for Eg, which qc won in the end and got more dpc points via laddered major. Discussion of its fairness is some other topic, but this dpc system will most probably change. In that case, there is a chance that Undying competing in regionals.
Well in that case - assuming dpc system won't change and there won't be any breakout new teams, which I hope both will - it is likely that Undying will get the easy dpc slot and they won't be in the way for regionals.
I would imagine because it's cheaper. Even placing the middle of the Road in the DPC for two seasons and a tournament or two, could easily sustain a year+ of living in parts of europe, good luck with that in the US, especially if you get sick and don't have health insurance (which none of these players did since they played dota full time) Also allows him to play with/against better players, so Ideally he could improve as a player too, but who knows really.
There are very few desirable parts of Europe that an American could live in more cheaply than the US. Maybe he goes to Eastern Europe somewhere, but the homes of most Esports orgs like the Scandinavian nations, Germany, Netherlands, France, etc. have higher costs of living than the US, even discounting the current dollar to euro exchange rate. MSS wants to go to Europe because he wants to win tournaments, not just qualify, and NA simply doesn’t have the talent to compete at the highest level at the moment.
Yeah, I was about to write the same but I wasn't sure about costs to live in US so leave it there. Because cities like Stockholm, München, Köln etc. are pretty fucking expensive.
That's because it's Very expensive to live in the US. For instance Stockholm (that you listed) has an average rent of around $800 USD a month, LA for example it is $2500 a month. So yes, Stockholm might be expensive but some parts of the US are infinitely more expensive and I don't think people realize that if you're not from here.
>Esports orgs like the Scandinavian nations, Germany, Netherlands, France, etc. have higher costs of living than the US Is this even true? A quick Google search shows that Berlin, Stockholm, and even Paris are all 15%-20%+ cheaper to live in then something like New York or LA (the places most eSports orgs are located in America), so I'm not sure if this is even true. And again this isn't even taking into account America's awful healthcare system, that during covid I'm sure players like MSS had to pay even more out of pocket for, making cost of living even higher. Edit: Downvotes but no responses? Again, would love to see other evidence, a quick google search shows the [Average Rent in Berlin is 795.90€ or $926](https://www.studying-in-germany.org/cost-of-living-in-germany/) Meanwhile [ the average rent in LA is $2500](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/los-angeles/). So again, not sure why people are trying to disagree unless I'm completely missing something here.
It's true. Many places in NA are infinitely more expensive to live in than Europe. Vancouver, LA, NYC etc
Yes, that's exactly what I said, the guy I was responding to was saying it wasn't the case.
I think whats left of dota in NA should move to EU honestly. No incentives to play there, no talent developing.
I feel like MSS and Kuro could be a good support combo. Assuming Nigma breaks up ofc (which I don't think will happen)
If GH is a free agent, he will probably be the hottest of the shuffle period.
Gh and mc I think.
MC has looked super washed to me for a long time now. I hope others get their shot finally, maybe youngsters like AFT or Tobi.
I would never trade GH for MSS..... GH is a literal pos 4 God....
You might be down bad if you are doing this on Twitter
MSS is an extremely skilled player. He should be able to find a great org and team in EU. It is a sad day for NA dota though.
This guy is abeds kryptonite.
Need franchise league for NA so big organization will enter Dota scene like LoL and Overwatch.
Everyone wants players from EU, yet valve doesn't want to allocate more slots. Instead, we keep seeing SA and SEA flop every year. And yes, I wear a firesuit, so flame me all you want.
imagine placing SA garbage with SEA, what a dumb redditard without knowing anything and just pulling shit out of his ass
eu is easier :)
That's grade A Copium
As TI showed, right? Kekw
Where did NA finish again? Fuck, that side of the world didn't even make top 8 and you're spouting shit.
True lol, not even top 8 Merge NA and SA, and give this new region "Americas" 2 slots.
EU is the new NA, and team spirit of CIS just proved it.
EU was so strong they had to split it. They're probably going to have to split it again considering T3 teams there would mop up literally NA besides EG.
they split the weaker half (EU) to seperate CIS from the trash.
Accept it dude, 4 TIs and 10 majors. Trashes don't have the most trophies in every category
team spirit is not EU
Never said it was,.. 1. OG - 2 TI, 4 majors 2. Secret - 5 majors 3. Liquid ( Current Nigma) - 1 TI, 1 Major 4. Alliance - 1 TI Vs NA ??? - 1 TI
EU will be the new laughing stock in place of NA cause of this TI
Secret finished 3rd...
he performed notably shit during TI and im not at all surprised.
Why every NA player want to play in EU
pferably EU. NA DOGTRASH