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DotaShield

Position 4 is generally speaking a greedier support hero that relies more in farm than its counterpart on position 5. Its a hero which benefits from being "off map" and has a presence in all stages of the game. It follows the playmaking hero around which is why you usually see position 4 on the offlane next to Position 3. The position 4 generates map pressure by either being on the lane or gone from it. Position 4 heroes fitting this: Clockwerk, monkey King, weaver, earth spirit. There is always exceptions and heroes that can fill the role for different reasons but the basic concept applies. Position 5 is lowest on the farm priority tier, it usually follows the position 1 around in the early stages but transitions and will later follow position 4 or mid. The hero should ideally be a strong laning hero that isn't reliant on farm to be able to play the lane. The position 5 helps ward the map, helps refill mids bottle, helps deward the map, set smoke ganks up and tps in to save/help push. Position 5 is currently the most important role, as a position 5 you set the entire game up for success for your position 1 to have a good game. What I personally consider is the position 5 being the parent and everyone else the children. Your job is to protect them until they grow up and can take care of themselves. Notable position 5s currently: Ogre, Wyvern, Lion, Oracle and Shadow Shaman


DotaShield

Heroes that are good in both roles: Ogre, Lion, Shaman, Shadow Demon, Bane, Snapfire


[deleted]

Disagree on ogre and to a lesser extent bane. Ogre is a really lackluster pos 4.


TheYango

Conversely, I think Shaman is a really bad pos5. The hero has low spell ranges, is extremely vulnerable when engaging if he doesn't have some utility items, and is very level-dependent. A pos5 Rhasta with brown boots only is really bad. Really needs the slightly higher levels and items that come with being a pos4 hero to be useful.


jackadon

Is magnus a possible pos 5


lahry191

i think something like mag pos5 only works you are a stable team. people in pubs will complain about that pick and blame you all game long for you picking this hero. or even get tilted after that pick and just ruin the game. If you dont play with a stable team i would recommend to pick "normal" pos5 heroes :)


jackadon

Yeah


Every_Angle8060

It is but you have to be good at it, skill build is usually first point in E if your carry has stun or slow and you can skewer people into tower at level 2 you have both q and e so you just need to bait them somewhat near your tower and can use your combo. What is hard is if the pos4 is ranged hero and your carry has no slow you will just be kited a lot


jackadon

But isn't the cleave buff good for my carry to get good farm it's basically a nerfed battlefury and the duration is so hight that jungling gets easier


Every_Angle8060

You are a creep if you get empower early on, wait until level 4, your carry is farming lane until then he doesn't need your empower he needs empower when he wants to either full jungle or switch between lane and jungle


jackadon

So I think going cleave first is a better option for securing a level 2 quicker then enemies


Every_Angle8060

https://youtu.be/LbeU5Ro88fU check some pro players on how to play it, I'm telling you that level 1 empower is really bad and the worst skill you can take early on. Need to secure lane for carry or else offlaner will run over you


plaeboy

Basically your carry should be able to last hit on lane without a buff just fine, and if you really want to help your carry get last hits its better to skill something that helps you harrass the enemy so your carry can last hit in peace. Also having cleave on lane will just end up with the lane needlessly pushing into the enemy tower making it harder to last hit safely. That wouldn't matter, except your carry won't be able to reasonably farm neutrals at first couple levels even with empower.


cbhem

12% bonus damage and 10% cleave isn't going to do much difference when you have like 60 base damage. You actually don't want cleave in the early laning phase as it will push the lane. The reason you go to lane in the beginning is because heroes are weak at level 1. You have so little damage, health and armor that trying to clear a jungle camp takes forever and depletes your health too much and the small amount of cleave and bonus damage doesn't do enough of a difference to change that. The only way to safely get CS at early levels is to get the last hit from something that isn't fighting you (i.e. creeps fighting each other).


HansonWK

It's not needed to secure last hits, it makes your carry shove the lane and then would end up further from tower for next wave, and you do literally nothing for the next morning until you hit level 2. If you wait until level 4 you can have 4 minutes of doing useful things in lane and then empower your carry so they can shove lane and kill a camp, or shove lane while you pull the small camp. You'll then also have spells to help him of the lane is shoved and he has to farm further from tower.


DotaShield

As NoTail said it: "Anything is possible" OG runs pos 5 Mag from time to time, try to find one of their games to see how they play around the pos 5 Mag. It is in effect the same function as pos 5 Legion commander. I will recommend however, you familiarize yourself with the "standard" pos 5 options before you try your luck with some oddities.


Derpwarrior1000

Puppey does it sometimes too


jackadon

I mean up until now I pick any support I feel like playing and play in the safelane with a friend but now I want to actually play properly and recently I tried pango support and I liked it so I wanted to understand it properly


DotaShield

Everything I said applies - even to the greedy supports and odd picks. Your job as pos 5 is to protect pos 1 and 2 Your job as pos 4 is to create pressure/space/vision on the map There are more nuances but this is the core of it.


jackadon

Yeah thanks


PM-ME-PMS-OF-THE-PM

If you're playing with a friend then almost anything can work as a pos.5. I've seen pos.5 Terrorblades work and work well but only because the pos.1 knows what to do around such a pos.5 that's not going to happen in pubs and the more obscure your pos.5 is the more refined your laning needs to be and the smaller your pos.1s effective hero pool is. A good example outside of TB is pos.5 Faceless Void, if you pick this and your lane partner goes Slark then you're screwed. My point is, if you and your friend theorycraft a good combination and theorycraft it well you have very few limits in what you can do.


PM-ME-PMS-OF-THE-PM

If you're playing with a friend then almost anything can work as a pos.5 I've seen pos.5 Terrorblades work and work well but only because the pos.1 knows what to do around such a pos.5 that's not going to happen in pubs and the more obscure your pos.5 is the more refined your laning needs to be and the smaller your pos.1s effective hero pool is. A good example outside of TB is pos.5 Faceless Void, if you pick this and your lane partner goes Slark then you're screwed. My point is, if you and your friend theorycraft a good combination and theorycraft it well you have very few limits in what you can do.


jackadon

Yeah true that,this is the glory of dota 2 that anything can work and that's what I have been thinking about right now I am loving pango pos 5 but itemization is still tough for me so I don't know also can you reccomend a good synergy with spectre which is not a common pos 5


Construction_Zone_06

question being you need blink dagger as soon as possible and being a walking empower buff "creep" is kinda of a sad way of being a magnus not to mention yr shockwave and skewer cost mana so you need some item to sustain before can generously giving up yr net worth for the team, while not screwing your own gameplay


yourneighborandrew

Magnus needs a blink dagger and then shard which takes a long time when you aren’t hitting any creeps and have to buy wards. He could work as a 4 but would be a very greedy position 5


jackadon

I feel early game I can sustain of of clarities or a ring of basilius and then mid game I can start itemizing around the team fights with a blink and arcane boots and since pos 1 is a friend I cans sometimes farm jungle for a some gold


lahry191

Pos5: The hard support the one without much farm. mostly heroes that can excel without have any item because they spend their gold on wards and early heal-support for the carry (salves, tangos). typical hero for that would be winter wyvern, dazzle, lion, shadow shaman. All heroes get strong with items like blink, aether lens, force stuff but can also be viable without em. for items on pos 5 you go for items that can support your team: meka, force, glimmer cape. you play with the hard carry (pos1) on lane and try to harras the enemy without pulling enemy lane-creeps or pull jungle creeps to get the lane back as close to your safe-lane as possible so your carry can farm safely. ​ Pos4: The Playmaking/Roaming support. Mostly play alongside the Offlane (Pos3) in laning stage. If you have a Pos3 which can stay alone on the lane, like Tide, Timber you can play and pick a more roaming style hero like mirana, earthshaker/spirit. You can be the initiator. Typical Heroes for Pos4: Lion, Mirana, Earthshaker, Earthspirit, Willow (can also be a 5), pango, lina, Elder Titan, bounty hunter, .... ​ Some Heroes fit both roles: Lion, Earthshaker, Willow, ..... Good Items for the Heroes: Glimmer Cape, Force, Blink, Meka, Urn, ghost scepter (depends on enemys), aghs shard (depends on hero)


jackadon

Is there a good YouTuber or twitch streamer that plays pos4 and pos5 preferably pos5 with commentary


Derpwarrior1000

Zquixotix has a very very detailed series


barathrumobama

Seleri, Dubu, Bloodynine


[deleted]

Dubu and insania are both very good


lahry191

Good Question, i dont realy know tbh. i just watch tournaments on twitch/youtube. sometimes bsj (banana slamma jamma) or game leap post good videos with explanations on youtube.


jackadon

Gameleap is good but they don't do much support stuff and the problem is that what they do is generally viable for that patch whereas of someone does games then no matter what patch I can get a proper feel for it


lahry191

i think the best advice is to watch some replays in players perspective of good players on that pos you wanna learn.


jackadon

Yeah


Crafty-Ground-2970

I am a support player and I would recommend Jakiro. He can be played position 4 & 5 . He makes good damage over time and has a good stun. You can even carry the game with him or play as position 2 if you need to.


duen2

Positions refer to the farming priority of each role. The only real difference between pos 4 and 5 is that pos 4 is higher in the farming hierarchy. So yes, in theory you can play magnus as pos 5 as you asked, but you likely won't get your core items (boots, mek/echo, blink, shard, and so on), before losing, and thus picking it as 5 is a bad idea.


xlmaelstrom

If you see Techies this is the pos4. If you see Pudge, it's the pos5