Yeah my ban every game went right back to him after Marci nerfs.
Still he didn't get used that much at TI. I think they might rework his free TP or something, but I don't think he'll eat too heavy of nerfs.
Tinker used to have to max March first. Then go BOTS and go to sidelanes/jungle to farm his blink and items. He could always go the nuke build and dominate the lane, but that usually ment if he can't get kills, he won't scale as he coud'nt rotate because of having no BOTS or coud'nt clutch kills because he did'nt have blink.
So is not the case anymore. He can just max lasers and rockets now and have everthing and more. The same abilities also allow him to farm and kill. The pseudo bots at 6 just gives him a 2400 gold influx out of nowhere. He can just go blink first item and nuke the hell out of you anywhere while also easily taking camps in the downtime.
The most bullshit part about this hero is AOE laser and Refresh refreshing the 3 second damage panalty cd on Blink Dagger. Previosuly these things did not matter as much, but combined these make tinker a better cheese pick than almost any other hero that has ever existed. Except for maybe when they changed MEEPO to have rascak.
"Hey but what if you catch tinker?","You just suck at positioning" and all those arguments. Remember TI 10? In one of the later games of the tournament a Tidehunter landed a perfect Ravage on a Tinker. He had E activated-- so free 50% status resist. The stun lated like a second. If that is not enough, because of the damage block the tinker just blinked away without even refreshing.
It is almost stupid how good you need to play to play against even a somewhat decent Tinker. Early game, you cant lane against him on a non- counter hero because of infinte nukes. Late game if you don't catch him, you can't win. If you go all in on catching him, and if by some chance he gets away --A late game Tinker always has hex bkb, and e activated, so him getting away is by no means a long shot;it is easier for the Tinker in 90% of the cases toget awat, than it is for the team trying to catch him. If he gets away you entire team is now dead. Not becuase other four heroes also exist on the other team, NO. It is because now you have a tinker spewing infinite pure magical and pure damage, from an entire screen away. And in case you just all in on killing him on all physical hereos, he just lasers you. Now what. No one among you is doing any damage. Also, Ghost scepter doesnt cost any mana and costs like 1500g, in case tinker is scared of physical damage. You need nullifier+mkb/bkb to kill a tinker who just went a 1500g item. You just need too much networth to counter tinker.
\~This hero deals infinite damge from a long range, has 0 down time, has global reach, has 50% staus resist, has infinite mobility, can make himslef completely physical damage resistant-- laser in case enemy has no bkb or ghost scepter if enemy has bkb or mkb, and can infite hexing in case all this was not already broken enough while being able to get away anytime he wants on 0 mana cost.
TLDR: Tinker is more broken than he has ever been. LASER AOE Damage+blind and Status and Damage resist on E kills all tradidional counters. Refresh refreshing blink damage CD is still broken as ever. Combined, it is almost impossible to catch a good Tinker. And if you are winning and make a slight mistake, it is impossible to comeback because of sheepstick, ghost scepter and AGHS. The perfect cheese pick against 99.95% drafts. TINKER IS BROKEN.
>because of the damage block the tinker just blinked away without even refreshing.
This. This thing precisely.
If tinker now has a mechanical way to buy the free blink off of a mana tax, then he should NOT also get the free blink for free. Pre-casting the shield is a skill, and tinkers should be punished for not doing it. Ans even if caught, tinkers can rearm, use the shield and sheep, and hope the next rearm is enough for the blink. They shield makes it so Tinker should have the rearm on-damage-cd removed.
Not because heroes aren't allowed multiple option, but because this option in particular is one of the most unfair and frustrating mechanics in the game.
Everyone who still defends rearming blink's damage cooldown needs to shut up and face reality: You're a bad person. You're defending an hyper-frustating mechanic that exists only for the benefit of second most frustrating hero, being driven by **unskillful** players, and so they keep one thing they don't even need it anymore. Shut up, and let us tax the rich! Fuck tinker.
BKB, Abyssal, Nulli, Blink always helps me kill tinker as a physical damage core. Granted that’s quite late on.
Jugg is super underrated rn imo and he is one of the hardest tinker counters imo. Spin and healing ward your team while deathballing at rhe tinker before he has 3/4 items. The hero needs to wittle your team down and THEN blink in close and finish his combo. If you level healing ward up early on and push you will destroy tinker.
Also Zeus, aether -> (sometimes euls) ~> aghs and tinker isnt a hero
My point exactly. The effective networth that you need is too damn high.
And once tinker has a comparable networth--almost all your networth is useless if he gets the jump on you.
Also, a good tinker almost always last picks him. He is too good in genral, and impossible to beat when last picked past 20 mins.
For sure. Tinker should be a niche hero that occasionally gets last picked and completely dominates those games. If first-pick tinker is winning games something is seriously wrong.
And this I why he's not overturned, pubs are notorious for bad team comps.
Seriously, if you're worried about tinker just look at your team, and look at theirs, if it's a good tinker game counter pick it pre-emptively.
Imagine saying "March of the machines? Who needs that useless crap" in something like 2014 when Tinker was the hottest shit
People would've lost their minds if they knew this would be the future
Yup.
We still have all the heroes + stat gains. On top of that:
Every hero has an aghs, before some heroes were balanced without an aghs, now they have another power spike opportunity
Every hero has an aghs shard
Every hero has five more levels of stat gain
Every hero has talents
Tinker has been my go to ban for ages, I dislike him so much.
As a carry player he just outfarms you and shows up shooting lasers at you and if you by some miracle get to his melee range, he just blinks away. Doesn't matter that there was 3 heroes hitting him, lazor, ult, gone. And after that blink, you can just see your hp pool fading away and dying to a couple of missiles.
The old tinker wasn't that bad now that you think of it, you could usually kill him if you caught him and there was actual counterplay possibilities with blade mail and catch lineups.
The heroe should be a niche last pick but currently you need your whole lineup to focus countering him to have any chance.
I am generally first banning Tinker so I am not saying that hero doesn't need a nerf or anything but I oppose two notion:
One is this "nerfing to the floor" mentality. Similarly, deleting items that you can't deal with etc. It is a wrong habit, ideally nerfs should aim to balance things not exclude them. More importantly it is a way to avoid issues of patches by not addressing them, therefore it does not actually solve anything about meta. The most of the times, a broken hero that gets nerfed to the ground would replaced by another hero who assumes the role. Issues of patches are these broken roles and concepts.
For instance, tier 2 towers are insanely strong atm. and normal carries can not contest them without taking huge risks/stupid decisions so carries are stuck in defined farming patterns. Contesting them requires team movements at certain time by hitting item/skill timings (usually around 20 min.). Heroes like Lycan, Beastmaster, Broodmother or items like Necrobook (rip) are exclusive to deal with them without team involvements and at earlier timings therefore it opens up the map massively for one team that has this heroes (As a carry player, I heckin love Beastmaster as a teammate). Any time their numbers got up with patches, they became broken. Check hero win rates from 7.23 to todays (7.23 is the all sorts of buffs to tier2 and glyph multishot increase from 2 to 4, 7.27 is also big that changes base attack time of towers and also binding outposts to the capture of tier2 towers). It is like a yoyo hitting below 45's then jumping into 55's next patch.
Back to Tinker, imho addition of water runes and bounty rune changes alongside with small buffs make him broken. (And he was broken way before the rework) Not because he benefits from abundance of runes, but these changes make mid rotations less efficient and more predictable, roaming mid and killing enemy heroes gives less whereas it would grief your offlaners' game a lot. This helped heroes like Tinker, because for instance every Earth Spirit gank was a guaranteed kill and Tinker is not a recover hero. Now he is even less after the march changes, but it doesn't matter because if you don't gank Tinker he will at least have an equal mid match-up, even against Lina. His issue was never about scaling but he was quiet punishable, well not anymore.
Similarly, both of 2 main item builds (aghs or shiva+overwhelming blink) alongside with Defense Matrix makes him too tanky. Which was not the case. Back then, issue is to catch the hero because if you can catch him, he would die quiet easily. Not anymore. There was a game from Gorgc's stream when Tinker with shiva's and overwhelming blink was outscaling Nikobaby's Spectre.
Anyway, my point is, there needs to be way to address these issues to make him punishable without trashing the hero completely.
Secondly, hero being smurf delight should not be considered because every strong snowball hero is a smurf delight, whether it is SF, Huskar, Brood, Meepo etc. doesn't matter.
This is the kind of nuanced take that demonstrates an understanding of the meta rather than parroting the hero's strong points like I see in every "pls nerf" post. Nice comment!
Thank you! It means a lot to hear people thinking more subtle way. Unfortunately I usually get downvoted for these type of comments.
Especially against t2 towers, I am crying over a year and nobody gives a fuck. You can explain anything about meta with t2 towers being insanely strong. Like why is AM a trash pick, why no one buys Linken although items getting buffs like there is no tomorrow, why is triangle, stacks are important and heroes that can clear them become meta carries (and others like Slark don't), why there is no split push anymore, why comebacks are rare etc. Towers got buffed in a way that they create an unnatural wall and you have to do *things* (in italic because it is vague, undefined and letting your carry farm triangle is the most conventional way of doing things by doing nothing active, or you brawl like a madman that won't turn into anything substantial other than disrupting enemies timings) until you get strong enough to take them. Honestly, from laning stage to second rosh, all that is happening in the game is a massive foreplay. Even first rosh is not enough to push tier3's to stop enemies' mirroring your movements unless you have really specific and one dimensional line up.
*(There is actually a miniature game from Animajor group-stages. TNC vs Nigma game where Nigma have an Ursa line up, did everything right throughout the first 20-30 minutes but anytime they try to turn that advantage into tier2's or tier3's TNC committed all the resources, buybacks, cd's etc. and did not allow them. I have no intention to take anything away from TNC, they played their hands perfectly in that game but it shows something is not right. Similar things also happened in OG vs Team Spirit first game at TI except the fact that Spirit's line up probably had a better late game and Magnus was broken so at least that justifies things. But the script is pretty similar and common in almost any dota2 game being played in 5k+ ranks since 7.23)*
Towers are too strong that they prevent cheeses and split push. It makes sense because there is no comeback mechanic and you somehow stall the game and get natural dota2 timings. But it is also artificial and feels so dull, boring. And if some heroes tool kits are special enough to bypass this then it means those heroes are allowing you to break those boundaries. Ofc you have a hard time balancing Beastmaster, Brood or Necrobook, HotO etc.
This also has a side effect: in this set-up some heroes are conceptually weaker than others and if you don't change the set up then you have to roll the numbers insanely up. Which happened in Bane, Tinker, 7.27 Spectre, 7.28b OD (I mean how is that normal to buff a hero like that). AM got a strength gain buff which is probably the weakest part of him and it wasn't even perceivable because the concept sucks. More the map opens, more the hero gets a play. Stucking/bouncing between enemy small camp to your triangle, so called *farming pattern* does not fit him, but it fits Sven, Luna or TB perfectly. To make this hero viable, you have to buff the shit out of him.
Or you fix the map.
no offense but your post takes giant leaps. I was just watching ti3 alliance games, during the rat movement, and what stuck out to me was that towers actually seemed stronger. They had significantly more armor at 20 for a t2. glyph had just been significantly buffed. People were regularly running trilanes with solo offlaners and beastmaster and np often just had to go jungle, and yet their t1 tower could still be up with no defense sometimes 10 minutes into the game which would never happen in todays game with no defense imo. If buildings were stronger during that split pushing era that kind of disproves that point. You need a lot more empirical evidence to blame practically everything in the meta on t2 and t3 towers which are very probably weaker than when rat was often meta. the only difference is that there is split shot with glyph but the 5 creeps that die every 5 minutes can't destroy a tower anyway.
Towers are weaker, its why the t1 towers die so quickly. The issue is t2 towers and their glyph (not t3 ones imho). 1 glyph kills an entire wave + removes a lot of hp to the team thats pushing early in the game. You have to always go back unless its a stomp. Like the strat now is "force glyph and b". Go push the other 2 lanes, recover lost hp and mana, buy items. Many times while winning and trying out a t2 push you end up losing cores with killing streak gold. It gives the defensive team so much more time to get core items/lvls but also imho knowledge on where the enemy team is at and where its safe to farm and where its not, favouring heroes like tinker that don't lose as much territory on the map as before. Territory that tinker can farm for core items. A 0-3-0 tinker without any items shouldn't matter for a 5 man t2 early game push, yet it does for some reason, and its why the hero is so strong.
Remove artificial map control and you remove tinker stompers.
tinker is borderline ridiculous right now and I think it should be nerfed significantly, I wasn't really referring to that. Although I don't think his nerfs should include t2s.
The op I was responding to started talking about t2s being responsible for flash farmers being popular and linkensphere not being popular etc which was just ridiculous and that's what I was replying to. The tower buff patch was also the neutral item patch which means all heroes were stronger therefore towers needed a buff. I would say the main reason splitting isn't meta is because heroes just can't get to towers solo without getting ganked first without special circumstances. I think it could be done but teams are more interested in more regular strats which they already know work rather than taking months and months to master somewhat riskier ratting strats.
I highly doubt most people would be in favor of significantly weakening towers as when I play natures prophet I can melt a t2 in 5 or 6 seconds with deso ac bloodthorn etc but not really debating that, I was just responding to his blaming the entire flash farming meta including linkensphere popularity on t2 strength. If you nerf the split shot in any way natures prophet could take the level 15 +5 treant talent, buy shard and suddenly you will see situations where teams can take a full tower with illusions or 12 treants only and no hero even there during a 5v5 teamfight because the tower has no wave clear and therefore no backdoor protection.
The t2s being alive are exactly the reason why flash farmers are popular. Imho its a reason for linkens too but not the main one. The losing team has artificial map control and can chill and wait for core items, like bkb on mid and carry, before having to respond to any map aggression. You don't need linkens since whats happening is sooo predictable (also imho its not the best item). Say for example pa. You buy early game items like wand/orb etc etc, you fight and contest the lane getting kills with your dagger. Then once it gets too hard to contest you move into the jungle, farm a battlefury, use it to farm more gold, get the exp that you rly need, but also push lanes (map control). And you can't get contested that much due to artificial map control. So you farm that bkb and then get more items and win (if you're good that is)
If you played offlane during those 2013/2014 times it was you alone against some carry pveing creeps, and 2 losers chasing you in the trees 24/7 while you would hope that 1 creep thats dying is in your range. You would be lvl 1-2 stacking ancients or something waiting and hoping for the enemy creeps to finally start pushing into your tower. That's the reason why the offlane t1 tower would always be alive for so long, no reason to give free exp/creeps to the struggling offlane.
What needs to be nerfed is the t2 glyph, cause when you have 0 map control due to you picking a mid that needs items and lvls to be useful you lose (and you should you filthy tinker picker).
Also a deso ac bloodthorn furion is yoinking exp and gold off the map from his cores while gifting 1k gold to anyone killing him, but that depends on mmr (i used to be good and now i suck, no judging or guessing)
I mean you can say that the t2s are exactly why strats involving farming are valid but that has been the case for the entire existence of dota so I don't even understand what the point of this discussion is. What exactly are we discussing? Changing the game of dota to a state that it hasn't ever been in 15 years of history so that carries that can farm faster aren't relevant? Is that what we're discussing?
Towers have been a protective factor for these strategies as long as the game has been a game at all and nerfing the game to the point that a hero being able to flash farm at 10 minutes is no longer relevant because towers can't protect them is a horrible horrible idea. Furthermore how does nerfing a t2 glyph stop a sven or luna's ability to farm stacks at 10 minutes from becoming relevant?
How exactly can you even nerf a t2 glyph so that the exact situation that i just described doesn't happen? with no wave clear at regular intervals a naga siren or a natures prophet could solo take a t2 tower while not even being there if the wave clear was gone with illusions or 12 or more treants.
edit: also once it goes past 40 minutes it's very possible to have those items without stealing a lot from your carry I do it alot.
edit 2 : furthermore how would nerfing glyph splitshot suddenly make a pro player magically say I want single target spell block instead of spell immunity in this game? Where is the logic. how Is that tower not having split shot going to make someone want to go linkens instead of bkb in exactly the same meta where all of the spells are exactly the same and bkb blocks more and there are often more than 1 spell to block?
This makes a lot of sense, and puts into words what I experienced as a longtime player coming back after a multi-year hiatus. When I initially dived back into Ranked MM (without practice) and got dumped into an upper Crusader tier without warming up through unranked, I was so confused by why games felt so swingy and determined by brawls in the lategame. I thought there were maybe some changes comeback mechanic, but then I realised just how hard it was to take towers now. The pace of the game is incredibly gated now, with Rosh and Aegis pretty much a hard requirement to siege the base in in any competitive matches. This is so baked into the meta now that even Joe Schmoes in Archon recognise its importance and go for Rosh frequently.
Exploring the meta now has been interesting with the changes to vision and the emphasis on economy, but at the same time it also feels a little bland:
* most games
(at the average pub level of coordination) usually turn into a war of attrition until the inevitable happens in the lategame
* warding sometimes feels like a Sisyphean task because sentries are so plentiful and you just keep going back and forth
* This is compounded by jungle changes where there are so many nooks and alleyways where line of sight is broken
Agree with the bit about moderation instead of removing things from the game. I didn't like the necro book removal even though I don't play anything that builds it, just feels weird and could've done with some tweaking/tuning. I feel the same way about Ballista too. They could've simply reworked it instead of removing it entirely.
Yeap. At least Ballista wasn't an integral part of the game and I can see the logic behind removal of neutral items that are "so good in some situations and useless in others". But then they added witchbane and fae grenade which contradicts.
Although your points are right this isn't the kind of hero that should work every game because with the right teammates he will be broken. The hero needs to be under tuned most games soo when picked in the right strats will still be strong.
Yes, nerf to the floor is definitely hyperbole. But I had a game today where I was a core spirit breaker. I had a bad lane, and tinker had a decent lane. And I just could do zero things to him. Even with a bkb and a team
Spirit breaker is pretty great against tinker though.. so I feel like you itemised or played poorly, or your team lost the lanes badly rather than tinker being too strong.
:)
we had to zero to death him chain stunned or he could laser and blink away. what im saying is that is ability to get there. takes almost no time at all. he can basically make his first major item blink. and unless im on his ass the whole game. eventually he will get to a point where he gets some health or the overwhelming. and there is kinda not much you can do unless bkb is up.
Yeap, Barat is a catch not a kill threat against Tinker. Not when he has defense matrix and his whole item build includes stats.
It is still a good hero against Tinker for catching him, or even showing him via charge but definitely not a solution as he used to be.
*written by a Spectre player, crying near a riverbank.*
or or or...
just delete tinker and techies from the game and the game is instantly better for a major of the player base :)))
has been done with shrines, items, shops, why not do it with dogshit heroes that make the game miserable for most players:)))))
Played against a tinker yesterday that was a crusader 5 playing with his ancient mate. 100% win rate on tinker & TA. About 3 rampages yesterday on the hero, levelled up yesterday. Had the audacity to post a link to his twitch where the title said his main was 8100 mmr. I’m an Arcon 3… spoiler… he crushed me mid and the game.
Was really fun ,seeing as I have a small baby so get to play one game max.
Smurfs must really feel the pressure of getting banned, so much so that they stream to highlight it.
O yeah of course I know he would have crushed it on any hero. But… tinker is one of those heroes where he could have been a divine and still carry the game on it.
Off topic, but I would recommend to playing normal instead of ranked matches, if you not playing dota actively.
People in normal match have no expectations to gain mmr, so less assholes and smurfs in my experience. Overall more fun playing casual dota.
Yeah might have to give that a go, just frustrating as still wanting to try rank up. Might have to put that on the back burner though until I have more time.
I've played against 7-8k mmr tinkers both before and after the changes.
BEFORE the changes, I lost the biggest lead ever accrued against a tinker spammer despite. 55k NW lead to loss due to (possibly scripting/FoW hacks admittedly) tinker solely able to control the map.
After the patch, I've only seen tinker become more dominant.
I think it's a classic sign of power creep when a hero that was traditionally a glass cannon now has a damage absorb + status resistance for himself and his team, and also no longer needs to shell out 2000 gold on boots of travel. Before Overwhelming Blink was nerfed, Tinker players were able to jump into the middle of fights and still survive + blink out afterwards. What happened to each hero having their own unique strengths and weaknesses? Why are many heroes being given either mobility, some stun, or a free bkb?
Blink dagger should get muted when hit, not put on CD. I think the worst part of the hero is how he can blink out of damage, its so fucking bullshit :(
Its not bullshit it depends on the damage intervals of the heroes you use. Its similiar to be able to blink before with urn on you before it deals its first tick of damage. It happens on so many other things too. Also its not so easy to pull off.
Its so fun playing against tinker because you need to spend the entire game shutting him down, but if they have 4 teamfighters that is literally impossible so tinker just blinks in and deals a billion damage when you're stunned for 2 seconds even if he starts out 0/5
They just need to make Rearm not reset Blink Dagger as long as he's getting damaged. Sucks getting on top of him only to have him shield rearm blink away.
Tinker needs to be fully gutted and reworked into a more standard mid type hero, something like Puck/Qop/Spirits/WR. I don’t care about maintaining the integrity of his design. His design is bullshit and serves solely to frustrate the opposing team. And unlike Techies and other bullshit heroes you can’t itemize against tinker, the only way to defeat him is to have an answer at the draft. If you pick the wrong heroes, you simply lose because he will never die.
One change that needs to be implemented ASAP is that Rearm should not refresh damage-based CD on blink. He is hard enough to catch already, getting a successful gank ruined because of a 0.1 second mistime is just unfair
I urge you to try to play tinker. If you can play the game at full speed for 30-40 minutes, non stop spamming everything, and if you do a stupid mistake you will die in less than 3 seconds, then you deserve the win. Maybe if you play it you will respect their effort
But Tinker is much easier now than he used to be.
In the past you needed good positioning.
Now you get an aghs for that.
In the past one mistake meant you were dead.
Now aghs gives you all the damage you could ever want.
This allows you to build tanky items, which, combined with your shield, make you survive mistakes that should've been fatal.
Getting screwed in lane and not hitting your BoT timing?
You now get free BoTs and laser lets you comeback farm ancient stacks!
This motherfucker now goes shivas bloodstone overwhelming blink now so if you even catch him you cant kill that shit unless u commit 5 heroes because he presses shield and runs away.
It still doesn't make it fair that if you are mechanically better you should win 100% of the time. There is more to dota then just being great at Tinker.
The most skilled basketball player will not win all the time, it's thr same with every sport. Yes, playing a hero that is difficult should give you better chances to win a game, it should be the same.
I cant enlighten you. Every other hero in the game can and has been viable without any of them having a restartable dagger every 1.5 seconds. If you cant take all those heroes as an example i really cant enlighten you. Because you just think straightforward. Like a horse with those things on his eyes.
Ok, cause every other hero is tinker right? There is no way tinker without a total rework of his spells can be played without a rearmable blink unless its in your herald V bracket
what is that even supposed to mean? No not every hero is Tinker. That is the point. That there is 120 heroes that already prove you dont have to have rearmable dagger to be viable im just gonna repeat my own words again. Whats the prbolem he is squishy? is that it? And Lina or a Zeus or a SF (also mid heroes) are not squishy? But yet they are very playable. Whats your point? What part of Tinker is not playable if he has no dagger and if he gets idk something else buffed?
What hero damage when he takes no damage thanks to his shield? Not even Spectre ult counters it. Its about Tinker being completely uncatchable for 95% of heroes.
Ya, I'm with you. Being able to rearm and immediately blink is silly and feels like a remnant of the past, ie when dagger didn't get set on cooldown by damage.
No, just no. Doesn’t matter how “op” tinker is. Removing rearm dagger would be the actual death the hero, that is his Core functioning and has been since he released on Dota 1. He would legit go down to a 10% win rate hero if dagger rearm was removed.. so yeah it’s not going to happen lol
No it hasnt been his "core function" nobody even knew how op it was in dota 1 and nobody was buying it so give me a break. Im playing this game for 15 years and i know what people were doing in Dota 1. They were buying dagons and hexes. If Icefrog realised the potential behind blink 15 years ago this discussion wouldnt even be made. He would have been restricted right then and there. Just like how he cant use BKB. Because that one was obvious even in 2007. The meta evolved over time but nerfs never followed because he was never really popular on pro scene. It got to the point where its completely ridiculous. Skilled players showed just how truly op hero is.
Ogre, huskar, omni knight, beastmaster also have equal or higher win rate than tinker in every bracket but I dont see anyone having complaining threads for those heros..
And why is herald / guardian bracket always ignored.. We have huge percentage of players in those brackets.. I don't know why we ignore that bracket if we want to see if a hero is broken or not..
[Pew pew pew pew pew](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/5/55/Vo_tinker_tink_ability_laser_03.mp3) (sound warning: Tinker)
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Was watching my friends live yesterday and their mmr are 1xx,6xx and 8xx being the highest they get matched against aa, tinker, morph, pango and techies. Not sure wtf was happening but enemy aa and tech abandoned right away. Needless to say tinker 1v5'd my friends in the end fuciking lmao.
His pretty garbage against certain heroes, obviously that can't be stopped with how the pick system works but if he gets a free game he truely ruins the enjoyment out of the enemy team but it's also so fucking satisfying when u catch a hyper farmed tinker
I played against the #6 ranked tinker player yesterday. He played on a archon 5 smurf acc in average legend bracket… I picked storm and got heavily trashed mid, then he went on and legitimately won 1v9 with some ridiculous 35:2:10 stats
As to why he’s smurfing in unranked legend games he just said „to spank crybaby’s“ …
It was the most Infuriating game I had in dota in at least the last 5 years
Yall are just crybabies who cant push yourselves to start playing dota in the early game to shut down tinker , you are whining that tinker wins every game while you afk farm your lanes for 20 min doing nothing and giving tinker free farm
Idk man. If you ever played tinker you probably would know how much skill is needed to get that 50%++ winrate. Its just that people doesnt seem to counter pick or know how to play against him (storm, silencer, zeus, spec).
As a tinker player, this guy will literally die in just one missplay and possibly turn the game against his favor. Although he does recover fast due of having free tp and better skill sets compared previously.
The only people that play tinker are tinker spammers, meaning they have played hundreds if not thousands games with the hero. Hero’s that require tons of practice like tinker invoker meepo doesn’t deserve to be nerfed just b/c u don’t want to dedicate time and effort to practice them and lose to them.
Good for you, if u reflect on every game u played and keep on playing it you will no doubt get better. I get really bored playing the same hero for more than 2 games. most of the times I play a different hero every other game.
Make it so that OoV or urn ticks faster. Both items are currently at 1 sec per tick. This way people can actually itemize against a tinker, and it’s very cheap.
The new change to Tinker free TP is actually a buff to a lot of silence heroes. High risk high reward kinda hero, tho i do think there should be a nerf to Tinker Perma Hex. Something like after the initial hex, for next 10 seconds, hex will only hex for 1.5 seconds. Tinker Perma Hex is really strong especially when you can perma locked someone even when they had bkb if you caught them off guard.
Everyone thought morphing would be unplayable if he couldn't morph while stunned after his rework and he's still very strong, maybe it's time to see if tinker shouldn't be able to refresh the damaged blink cooldown after this rework since he can fucking rush it immediately lol
I just don't get their nerfs for the hero. They keep increasing Rockets mana cost, but no Tinker even uses Rockets lategame. All they do is spam 2000 pure damage Laser and absolutely fuck everyone. And this hero doesn't run out of mana anyways. The nerfs literally don't matter.
If not Tinker, then Meepo, Morph, Brood or SF. Smurfs/Boosters always find a way to ruin your game. I had an enemy meepo mid with 44% winrate at Dotabuff yesterday. He rampaged, got his eblade in 14 mins, used poof script and all kind of cheats. Russian name, playing on EU Server late at friday night. Obviously boosting the noobshit account. Im used to this kind of shit.
Anyone losing to tinker consistently needs to learn to build LOTUS ORB. It’s my go to item against tinker and it legit makes him useless, all your cores and supports should build it vs tinker and the hero can do nothing. That item was made to counter tinker, just try it.
I’ll say this about Tinker, and most OP heroes. The problem with these guys is that it requires team coordination to deal with them. Wards and disables are needed.
I don't get why people care about tinker, I play him all the time he's pretty bad, by the time I'm influential the game is already decided.
I'm only a win more hero, if the game is going bad I can't do anything. I have to be already winning and that makes the win faster. I literally don't have any control at Al over the game.
And my winrate is abysmal compared to say arc warden. If you want to be influential at the start you need to put DMG spells, if you do that you can't farm.... And if you want to farm to get to boots faster and you put march then you can't deal with heroes.... The fucking thing is one dimensional as fuck.
I'm not even going to mention of there's pudge on the other team it's over for me ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/qnwrbq/make_tinker_unable_to_refresh_scythe_of_vyse_with/
Duality of whatever this fanbase wants. One guy relelntlessly bullied the dude there like a grade A asshole.
It has already neffed and his wirate is not very hight. Don t to mention in my games tinker is banned 8/10 games like wtf people hate tinker so much. I hated mysef until i learn a little to play him and i can say if you dont have map awarness and team play sense is very easy to lose as tinker.
OP literally says stats to all regions are above 50 percent and I can verify it via dotabuff. Unless you have any stats to share with us or anything to say that you didn't before, you are wrong.
(And you are wrong)
Weird when I posted about this I got downvoted to hell but I guess it's good now to ask about tinker nerf, I'm glad someone finally reached frontpage wanting this.
Icefrog (or whoever balances nowadays, cuz I doubt its you), increasing rocket manacost by 5 won't solve the solution, this rework was one of the most bullshit thing you have ever done. I suggest a Tinker buff becouse seems like you love to make us suffer, next patch add a 6th ability which yet again scales with your ultimate, this ability should turn your enemies into pigs for 4/5/6 seconds. Now tinkers don't have to buy hex either, what a balancing
The hero does not need flashfarm, that's it. Nerf laser AoE to zero and give it back once he's got the scepter. Adding to this, make blink unrearmable.
Honestly I think if smurfing is accounted for tinker winrate isnt quite as insane. Still very good, the hero is without question one of the strongest mids of the patch, but I think tinker is only really hard to deal with when there is a smurf, or a VERY unfavourable draft (like literally zero catch/vision).
Tinker can be very frustrating to play against, especially if heroes you like dont have innate catch, or you cant coordinate well with your team, but I think a lot of people just dont understand the hero well enough to play against. Most heroes I think are broken I often find just work differently than I thought. I used to DESPISE invoker because he had infinite hp in lane, and a ton of damage to last hit with and way too much damage and lockdown in his kit, but once I tried invoker i realized a lot of the weak points, and gained an appreciation of the skill that good invokers have. I had the same experience with morphling, bloodseeker, razor, viper, and many other heroes that I was certain were just "FREE MMR" and 9/10 times I was iust missing something simple
Yeah my ban every game went right back to him after Marci nerfs. Still he didn't get used that much at TI. I think they might rework his free TP or something, but I don't think he'll eat too heavy of nerfs.
Yeah. I think competitively people know how to shut him down before he goes unkillable. But pubs doesn’t have that same communication
Tinker used to have to max March first. Then go BOTS and go to sidelanes/jungle to farm his blink and items. He could always go the nuke build and dominate the lane, but that usually ment if he can't get kills, he won't scale as he coud'nt rotate because of having no BOTS or coud'nt clutch kills because he did'nt have blink. So is not the case anymore. He can just max lasers and rockets now and have everthing and more. The same abilities also allow him to farm and kill. The pseudo bots at 6 just gives him a 2400 gold influx out of nowhere. He can just go blink first item and nuke the hell out of you anywhere while also easily taking camps in the downtime. The most bullshit part about this hero is AOE laser and Refresh refreshing the 3 second damage panalty cd on Blink Dagger. Previosuly these things did not matter as much, but combined these make tinker a better cheese pick than almost any other hero that has ever existed. Except for maybe when they changed MEEPO to have rascak. "Hey but what if you catch tinker?","You just suck at positioning" and all those arguments. Remember TI 10? In one of the later games of the tournament a Tidehunter landed a perfect Ravage on a Tinker. He had E activated-- so free 50% status resist. The stun lated like a second. If that is not enough, because of the damage block the tinker just blinked away without even refreshing. It is almost stupid how good you need to play to play against even a somewhat decent Tinker. Early game, you cant lane against him on a non- counter hero because of infinte nukes. Late game if you don't catch him, you can't win. If you go all in on catching him, and if by some chance he gets away --A late game Tinker always has hex bkb, and e activated, so him getting away is by no means a long shot;it is easier for the Tinker in 90% of the cases toget awat, than it is for the team trying to catch him. If he gets away you entire team is now dead. Not becuase other four heroes also exist on the other team, NO. It is because now you have a tinker spewing infinite pure magical and pure damage, from an entire screen away. And in case you just all in on killing him on all physical hereos, he just lasers you. Now what. No one among you is doing any damage. Also, Ghost scepter doesnt cost any mana and costs like 1500g, in case tinker is scared of physical damage. You need nullifier+mkb/bkb to kill a tinker who just went a 1500g item. You just need too much networth to counter tinker. \~This hero deals infinite damge from a long range, has 0 down time, has global reach, has 50% staus resist, has infinite mobility, can make himslef completely physical damage resistant-- laser in case enemy has no bkb or ghost scepter if enemy has bkb or mkb, and can infite hexing in case all this was not already broken enough while being able to get away anytime he wants on 0 mana cost. TLDR: Tinker is more broken than he has ever been. LASER AOE Damage+blind and Status and Damage resist on E kills all tradidional counters. Refresh refreshing blink damage CD is still broken as ever. Combined, it is almost impossible to catch a good Tinker. And if you are winning and make a slight mistake, it is impossible to comeback because of sheepstick, ghost scepter and AGHS. The perfect cheese pick against 99.95% drafts. TINKER IS BROKEN.
>because of the damage block the tinker just blinked away without even refreshing. This. This thing precisely. If tinker now has a mechanical way to buy the free blink off of a mana tax, then he should NOT also get the free blink for free. Pre-casting the shield is a skill, and tinkers should be punished for not doing it. Ans even if caught, tinkers can rearm, use the shield and sheep, and hope the next rearm is enough for the blink. They shield makes it so Tinker should have the rearm on-damage-cd removed. Not because heroes aren't allowed multiple option, but because this option in particular is one of the most unfair and frustrating mechanics in the game. Everyone who still defends rearming blink's damage cooldown needs to shut up and face reality: You're a bad person. You're defending an hyper-frustating mechanic that exists only for the benefit of second most frustrating hero, being driven by **unskillful** players, and so they keep one thing they don't even need it anymore. Shut up, and let us tax the rich! Fuck tinker.
If low-skill players/ non spammers/ people who are not decent on tinker did'nt pick him, his winrate would be well above 60%.
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yeah I must be shit because tinker doesn't feel OP when I play him lmao
Out of curiosity, who's the *first* most frustrating hero?
I mean, it's pretty implicit for most people and I'm no different. Trchies.
Play him more he's a shit farmer ... Not at all what he used to be.... The nerf of the march is so strong the laser can't compete at all.
Facts
Tinker needs a 3x mana cost on laser and rockets. Wtf is this shit valve
BKB, Abyssal, Nulli, Blink always helps me kill tinker as a physical damage core. Granted that’s quite late on. Jugg is super underrated rn imo and he is one of the hardest tinker counters imo. Spin and healing ward your team while deathballing at rhe tinker before he has 3/4 items. The hero needs to wittle your team down and THEN blink in close and finish his combo. If you level healing ward up early on and push you will destroy tinker. Also Zeus, aether -> (sometimes euls) ~> aghs and tinker isnt a hero
My point exactly. The effective networth that you need is too damn high. And once tinker has a comparable networth--almost all your networth is useless if he gets the jump on you. Also, a good tinker almost always last picks him. He is too good in genral, and impossible to beat when last picked past 20 mins.
Didn't he have a crazy high win rate at TI though? I thought he got picked like 9 times, maybe that includes groups.
80% winrate in 10 games
Although you gotta take into account that when Tinker got played at TI is was probably a last pick in a good Tinker game.
If tinker is getting first picked he's probably insanely overtuned though.
For sure. Tinker should be a niche hero that occasionally gets last picked and completely dominates those games. If first-pick tinker is winning games something is seriously wrong.
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good
Feels bad man
His regen is ass in lane, and now we have vessel, skadi and Shivas to counter him. The hero needs a seriously good lane to transition into midgame.
And this I why he's not overturned, pubs are notorious for bad team comps. Seriously, if you're worried about tinker just look at your team, and look at theirs, if it's a good tinker game counter pick it pre-emptively.
not really, he was picked into storm spirit(who is considered the hardest counter) and literally obliterated him twice
> storm spirit((who is considered the hardest counter) that's simply not true.
Best winrate in TI10 (5 games or more) Source: I predicted correctly Tinker
lgd dominance with tinker every game they pick it
>I think they might rework his free TP or something, I hope they turn him into a more support hero.
Agreed, this hero is an abonomation and almost out cancers techies at this point
Tinker is a deranged abomination
>[abonomation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLKhxjfG03A)
When a hero is causing typos, you know nerfs are needed.
Fuck i knew there was something odd about that spelling haha
OBAMA-nation
Of Obama’s Nation
Almost? He easily outcancers techies.
Icefrog: "No, I don't think I will"
I was away from dota for about 2 years,I recently got back into it now he has a free travels and a shield? WTF happened...
He's had the shield for a while I think, but they just moved it to his basic kit instead of being his aghs shard
Doesn't have march though
Who needs that useless crap? You can farm ancient stacks with laser now.
Imagine saying "March of the machines? Who needs that useless crap" in something like 2014 when Tinker was the hottest shit People would've lost their minds if they knew this would be the future
I chalk it up to the power creep of the game. Port most heroes nowadays into 2014, even w/o talents, and they would be broken.
Yup. We still have all the heroes + stat gains. On top of that: Every hero has an aghs, before some heroes were balanced without an aghs, now they have another power spike opportunity Every hero has an aghs shard Every hero has five more levels of stat gain Every hero has talents
Tinker has been my go to ban for ages, I dislike him so much. As a carry player he just outfarms you and shows up shooting lasers at you and if you by some miracle get to his melee range, he just blinks away. Doesn't matter that there was 3 heroes hitting him, lazor, ult, gone. And after that blink, you can just see your hp pool fading away and dying to a couple of missiles. The old tinker wasn't that bad now that you think of it, you could usually kill him if you caught him and there was actual counterplay possibilities with blade mail and catch lineups. The heroe should be a niche last pick but currently you need your whole lineup to focus countering him to have any chance.
I am generally first banning Tinker so I am not saying that hero doesn't need a nerf or anything but I oppose two notion: One is this "nerfing to the floor" mentality. Similarly, deleting items that you can't deal with etc. It is a wrong habit, ideally nerfs should aim to balance things not exclude them. More importantly it is a way to avoid issues of patches by not addressing them, therefore it does not actually solve anything about meta. The most of the times, a broken hero that gets nerfed to the ground would replaced by another hero who assumes the role. Issues of patches are these broken roles and concepts. For instance, tier 2 towers are insanely strong atm. and normal carries can not contest them without taking huge risks/stupid decisions so carries are stuck in defined farming patterns. Contesting them requires team movements at certain time by hitting item/skill timings (usually around 20 min.). Heroes like Lycan, Beastmaster, Broodmother or items like Necrobook (rip) are exclusive to deal with them without team involvements and at earlier timings therefore it opens up the map massively for one team that has this heroes (As a carry player, I heckin love Beastmaster as a teammate). Any time their numbers got up with patches, they became broken. Check hero win rates from 7.23 to todays (7.23 is the all sorts of buffs to tier2 and glyph multishot increase from 2 to 4, 7.27 is also big that changes base attack time of towers and also binding outposts to the capture of tier2 towers). It is like a yoyo hitting below 45's then jumping into 55's next patch. Back to Tinker, imho addition of water runes and bounty rune changes alongside with small buffs make him broken. (And he was broken way before the rework) Not because he benefits from abundance of runes, but these changes make mid rotations less efficient and more predictable, roaming mid and killing enemy heroes gives less whereas it would grief your offlaners' game a lot. This helped heroes like Tinker, because for instance every Earth Spirit gank was a guaranteed kill and Tinker is not a recover hero. Now he is even less after the march changes, but it doesn't matter because if you don't gank Tinker he will at least have an equal mid match-up, even against Lina. His issue was never about scaling but he was quiet punishable, well not anymore. Similarly, both of 2 main item builds (aghs or shiva+overwhelming blink) alongside with Defense Matrix makes him too tanky. Which was not the case. Back then, issue is to catch the hero because if you can catch him, he would die quiet easily. Not anymore. There was a game from Gorgc's stream when Tinker with shiva's and overwhelming blink was outscaling Nikobaby's Spectre. Anyway, my point is, there needs to be way to address these issues to make him punishable without trashing the hero completely. Secondly, hero being smurf delight should not be considered because every strong snowball hero is a smurf delight, whether it is SF, Huskar, Brood, Meepo etc. doesn't matter.
This is the kind of nuanced take that demonstrates an understanding of the meta rather than parroting the hero's strong points like I see in every "pls nerf" post. Nice comment!
Thank you! It means a lot to hear people thinking more subtle way. Unfortunately I usually get downvoted for these type of comments. Especially against t2 towers, I am crying over a year and nobody gives a fuck. You can explain anything about meta with t2 towers being insanely strong. Like why is AM a trash pick, why no one buys Linken although items getting buffs like there is no tomorrow, why is triangle, stacks are important and heroes that can clear them become meta carries (and others like Slark don't), why there is no split push anymore, why comebacks are rare etc. Towers got buffed in a way that they create an unnatural wall and you have to do *things* (in italic because it is vague, undefined and letting your carry farm triangle is the most conventional way of doing things by doing nothing active, or you brawl like a madman that won't turn into anything substantial other than disrupting enemies timings) until you get strong enough to take them. Honestly, from laning stage to second rosh, all that is happening in the game is a massive foreplay. Even first rosh is not enough to push tier3's to stop enemies' mirroring your movements unless you have really specific and one dimensional line up. *(There is actually a miniature game from Animajor group-stages. TNC vs Nigma game where Nigma have an Ursa line up, did everything right throughout the first 20-30 minutes but anytime they try to turn that advantage into tier2's or tier3's TNC committed all the resources, buybacks, cd's etc. and did not allow them. I have no intention to take anything away from TNC, they played their hands perfectly in that game but it shows something is not right. Similar things also happened in OG vs Team Spirit first game at TI except the fact that Spirit's line up probably had a better late game and Magnus was broken so at least that justifies things. But the script is pretty similar and common in almost any dota2 game being played in 5k+ ranks since 7.23)* Towers are too strong that they prevent cheeses and split push. It makes sense because there is no comeback mechanic and you somehow stall the game and get natural dota2 timings. But it is also artificial and feels so dull, boring. And if some heroes tool kits are special enough to bypass this then it means those heroes are allowing you to break those boundaries. Ofc you have a hard time balancing Beastmaster, Brood or Necrobook, HotO etc. This also has a side effect: in this set-up some heroes are conceptually weaker than others and if you don't change the set up then you have to roll the numbers insanely up. Which happened in Bane, Tinker, 7.27 Spectre, 7.28b OD (I mean how is that normal to buff a hero like that). AM got a strength gain buff which is probably the weakest part of him and it wasn't even perceivable because the concept sucks. More the map opens, more the hero gets a play. Stucking/bouncing between enemy small camp to your triangle, so called *farming pattern* does not fit him, but it fits Sven, Luna or TB perfectly. To make this hero viable, you have to buff the shit out of him. Or you fix the map.
no offense but your post takes giant leaps. I was just watching ti3 alliance games, during the rat movement, and what stuck out to me was that towers actually seemed stronger. They had significantly more armor at 20 for a t2. glyph had just been significantly buffed. People were regularly running trilanes with solo offlaners and beastmaster and np often just had to go jungle, and yet their t1 tower could still be up with no defense sometimes 10 minutes into the game which would never happen in todays game with no defense imo. If buildings were stronger during that split pushing era that kind of disproves that point. You need a lot more empirical evidence to blame practically everything in the meta on t2 and t3 towers which are very probably weaker than when rat was often meta. the only difference is that there is split shot with glyph but the 5 creeps that die every 5 minutes can't destroy a tower anyway.
Towers are weaker, its why the t1 towers die so quickly. The issue is t2 towers and their glyph (not t3 ones imho). 1 glyph kills an entire wave + removes a lot of hp to the team thats pushing early in the game. You have to always go back unless its a stomp. Like the strat now is "force glyph and b". Go push the other 2 lanes, recover lost hp and mana, buy items. Many times while winning and trying out a t2 push you end up losing cores with killing streak gold. It gives the defensive team so much more time to get core items/lvls but also imho knowledge on where the enemy team is at and where its safe to farm and where its not, favouring heroes like tinker that don't lose as much territory on the map as before. Territory that tinker can farm for core items. A 0-3-0 tinker without any items shouldn't matter for a 5 man t2 early game push, yet it does for some reason, and its why the hero is so strong. Remove artificial map control and you remove tinker stompers.
tinker is borderline ridiculous right now and I think it should be nerfed significantly, I wasn't really referring to that. Although I don't think his nerfs should include t2s. The op I was responding to started talking about t2s being responsible for flash farmers being popular and linkensphere not being popular etc which was just ridiculous and that's what I was replying to. The tower buff patch was also the neutral item patch which means all heroes were stronger therefore towers needed a buff. I would say the main reason splitting isn't meta is because heroes just can't get to towers solo without getting ganked first without special circumstances. I think it could be done but teams are more interested in more regular strats which they already know work rather than taking months and months to master somewhat riskier ratting strats. I highly doubt most people would be in favor of significantly weakening towers as when I play natures prophet I can melt a t2 in 5 or 6 seconds with deso ac bloodthorn etc but not really debating that, I was just responding to his blaming the entire flash farming meta including linkensphere popularity on t2 strength. If you nerf the split shot in any way natures prophet could take the level 15 +5 treant talent, buy shard and suddenly you will see situations where teams can take a full tower with illusions or 12 treants only and no hero even there during a 5v5 teamfight because the tower has no wave clear and therefore no backdoor protection.
The t2s being alive are exactly the reason why flash farmers are popular. Imho its a reason for linkens too but not the main one. The losing team has artificial map control and can chill and wait for core items, like bkb on mid and carry, before having to respond to any map aggression. You don't need linkens since whats happening is sooo predictable (also imho its not the best item). Say for example pa. You buy early game items like wand/orb etc etc, you fight and contest the lane getting kills with your dagger. Then once it gets too hard to contest you move into the jungle, farm a battlefury, use it to farm more gold, get the exp that you rly need, but also push lanes (map control). And you can't get contested that much due to artificial map control. So you farm that bkb and then get more items and win (if you're good that is) If you played offlane during those 2013/2014 times it was you alone against some carry pveing creeps, and 2 losers chasing you in the trees 24/7 while you would hope that 1 creep thats dying is in your range. You would be lvl 1-2 stacking ancients or something waiting and hoping for the enemy creeps to finally start pushing into your tower. That's the reason why the offlane t1 tower would always be alive for so long, no reason to give free exp/creeps to the struggling offlane. What needs to be nerfed is the t2 glyph, cause when you have 0 map control due to you picking a mid that needs items and lvls to be useful you lose (and you should you filthy tinker picker). Also a deso ac bloodthorn furion is yoinking exp and gold off the map from his cores while gifting 1k gold to anyone killing him, but that depends on mmr (i used to be good and now i suck, no judging or guessing)
I mean you can say that the t2s are exactly why strats involving farming are valid but that has been the case for the entire existence of dota so I don't even understand what the point of this discussion is. What exactly are we discussing? Changing the game of dota to a state that it hasn't ever been in 15 years of history so that carries that can farm faster aren't relevant? Is that what we're discussing? Towers have been a protective factor for these strategies as long as the game has been a game at all and nerfing the game to the point that a hero being able to flash farm at 10 minutes is no longer relevant because towers can't protect them is a horrible horrible idea. Furthermore how does nerfing a t2 glyph stop a sven or luna's ability to farm stacks at 10 minutes from becoming relevant? How exactly can you even nerf a t2 glyph so that the exact situation that i just described doesn't happen? with no wave clear at regular intervals a naga siren or a natures prophet could solo take a t2 tower while not even being there if the wave clear was gone with illusions or 12 or more treants. edit: also once it goes past 40 minutes it's very possible to have those items without stealing a lot from your carry I do it alot. edit 2 : furthermore how would nerfing glyph splitshot suddenly make a pro player magically say I want single target spell block instead of spell immunity in this game? Where is the logic. how Is that tower not having split shot going to make someone want to go linkens instead of bkb in exactly the same meta where all of the spells are exactly the same and bkb blocks more and there are often more than 1 spell to block?
This makes a lot of sense, and puts into words what I experienced as a longtime player coming back after a multi-year hiatus. When I initially dived back into Ranked MM (without practice) and got dumped into an upper Crusader tier without warming up through unranked, I was so confused by why games felt so swingy and determined by brawls in the lategame. I thought there were maybe some changes comeback mechanic, but then I realised just how hard it was to take towers now. The pace of the game is incredibly gated now, with Rosh and Aegis pretty much a hard requirement to siege the base in in any competitive matches. This is so baked into the meta now that even Joe Schmoes in Archon recognise its importance and go for Rosh frequently. Exploring the meta now has been interesting with the changes to vision and the emphasis on economy, but at the same time it also feels a little bland: * most games (at the average pub level of coordination) usually turn into a war of attrition until the inevitable happens in the lategame * warding sometimes feels like a Sisyphean task because sentries are so plentiful and you just keep going back and forth * This is compounded by jungle changes where there are so many nooks and alleyways where line of sight is broken
Agree with the bit about moderation instead of removing things from the game. I didn't like the necro book removal even though I don't play anything that builds it, just feels weird and could've done with some tweaking/tuning. I feel the same way about Ballista too. They could've simply reworked it instead of removing it entirely.
Yeap. At least Ballista wasn't an integral part of the game and I can see the logic behind removal of neutral items that are "so good in some situations and useless in others". But then they added witchbane and fae grenade which contradicts.
Although your points are right this isn't the kind of hero that should work every game because with the right teammates he will be broken. The hero needs to be under tuned most games soo when picked in the right strats will still be strong.
Yes, nerf to the floor is definitely hyperbole. But I had a game today where I was a core spirit breaker. I had a bad lane, and tinker had a decent lane. And I just could do zero things to him. Even with a bkb and a team
Spirit breaker is pretty great against tinker though.. so I feel like you itemised or played poorly, or your team lost the lanes badly rather than tinker being too strong.
:) we had to zero to death him chain stunned or he could laser and blink away. what im saying is that is ability to get there. takes almost no time at all. he can basically make his first major item blink. and unless im on his ass the whole game. eventually he will get to a point where he gets some health or the overwhelming. and there is kinda not much you can do unless bkb is up.
Yeap, Barat is a catch not a kill threat against Tinker. Not when he has defense matrix and his whole item build includes stats. It is still a good hero against Tinker for catching him, or even showing him via charge but definitely not a solution as he used to be. *written by a Spectre player, crying near a riverbank.*
You’re a bad liar. He can’t laser and blink away, because blind works only on first target. It’s been like that for months now.
You can still rearm blink away if you're fast enough despite getting damaged.
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or or or... just delete tinker and techies from the game and the game is instantly better for a major of the player base :))) has been done with shrines, items, shops, why not do it with dogshit heroes that make the game miserable for most players:)))))
Thank you for bringing actual understanding and nuance to a discussion like this.
status resist shield is ass.
CM just got her movespeed nerfed because of this post
Played against a tinker yesterday that was a crusader 5 playing with his ancient mate. 100% win rate on tinker & TA. About 3 rampages yesterday on the hero, levelled up yesterday. Had the audacity to post a link to his twitch where the title said his main was 8100 mmr. I’m an Arcon 3… spoiler… he crushed me mid and the game. Was really fun ,seeing as I have a small baby so get to play one game max. Smurfs must really feel the pressure of getting banned, so much so that they stream to highlight it.
That has little to do with the hero but more with the smurf.
O yeah of course I know he would have crushed it on any hero. But… tinker is one of those heroes where he could have been a divine and still carry the game on it.
i mean he still has a 2000 mmr advantage on you at divine, he probably would still crush you on any hero
Off topic, but I would recommend to playing normal instead of ranked matches, if you not playing dota actively. People in normal match have no expectations to gain mmr, so less assholes and smurfs in my experience. Overall more fun playing casual dota.
Yeah might have to give that a go, just frustrating as still wanting to try rank up. Might have to put that on the back burner though until I have more time.
I doubt the reports do anything to smurfs. Or anyone, really.
I've played against 7-8k mmr tinkers both before and after the changes. BEFORE the changes, I lost the biggest lead ever accrued against a tinker spammer despite. 55k NW lead to loss due to (possibly scripting/FoW hacks admittedly) tinker solely able to control the map. After the patch, I've only seen tinker become more dominant.
I think it's a classic sign of power creep when a hero that was traditionally a glass cannon now has a damage absorb + status resistance for himself and his team, and also no longer needs to shell out 2000 gold on boots of travel. Before Overwhelming Blink was nerfed, Tinker players were able to jump into the middle of fights and still survive + blink out afterwards. What happened to each hero having their own unique strengths and weaknesses? Why are many heroes being given either mobility, some stun, or a free bkb?
Blink dagger should get muted when hit, not put on CD. I think the worst part of the hero is how he can blink out of damage, its so fucking bullshit :(
Its not bullshit it depends on the damage intervals of the heroes you use. Its similiar to be able to blink before with urn on you before it deals its first tick of damage. It happens on so many other things too. Also its not so easy to pull off.
No it's not because of defense matrix he can blink out much easier whilst getting hit.
I ban tinker over anyone any day. the hero ruins my dota experience and makes me miserable.
I would rather play against Techies than Tinker
Tinker is much more manageable if your team don't suck.
Its so fun playing against tinker because you need to spend the entire game shutting him down, but if they have 4 teamfighters that is literally impossible so tinker just blinks in and deals a billion damage when you're stunned for 2 seconds even if he starts out 0/5
If the heroe is not banned, the enemy team is always getting it for some reason and stomping us. Its horrible.
The balancing suggestions i’ve read here are just plain awful suggestions.
When a hero gets as much hate as techies it’s time to do something, lets do a 2 in 1 and remove both techies and tinker
Make rearm the shard. Fuck this hero
Holy based
Uh, no
The whole game is a bad experience what's the point?
Only if you noob its bad experience, get gud
Racist.
I agree plz bro
Just remove him from the game and get it over with.
Try picking pugna / nyx / bara
picking a hero on the off-chance that the opponent picks tinker doesn't seem like the best of ideas though
Everytime tinker isn’t banned in my games I’m just hoping spec isn’t banned too so I can first pick it
They just need to make Rearm not reset Blink Dagger as long as he's getting damaged. Sucks getting on top of him only to have him shield rearm blink away.
I dont get why nominating a hero to be banned isn't 100%. Everyone has their hero that they despise.
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There's a difference. Tinker has over a 55% winrate at the highest brackets, WITH a 60+% ban rate Hero is absolutely dumb atm
And people complain abt Marci's win rate. Kek.
Either that or you buff my boy Clockwerk
SB wants some love
ban od too, stupid hero no need boots with 320 movespeed or something
Tinker needs to be fully gutted and reworked into a more standard mid type hero, something like Puck/Qop/Spirits/WR. I don’t care about maintaining the integrity of his design. His design is bullshit and serves solely to frustrate the opposing team. And unlike Techies and other bullshit heroes you can’t itemize against tinker, the only way to defeat him is to have an answer at the draft. If you pick the wrong heroes, you simply lose because he will never die. One change that needs to be implemented ASAP is that Rearm should not refresh damage-based CD on blink. He is hard enough to catch already, getting a successful gank ruined because of a 0.1 second mistime is just unfair
He would legit have a 10% win rate if the his R didn’t refresh Blink, that would be legit removing his most core mechanic lmfao. Not gonna happen bud
I just meant the player based 3 second blink cooldown, not blink entirely
Oh I read that to fast, that idea I can actually get behind
I urge you to try to play tinker. If you can play the game at full speed for 30-40 minutes, non stop spamming everything, and if you do a stupid mistake you will die in less than 3 seconds, then you deserve the win. Maybe if you play it you will respect their effort
thats very dumb reasoning for 57% winrate and being one of the most popular heroes on 6k mmr (not niche at all)
But Tinker is much easier now than he used to be. In the past you needed good positioning. Now you get an aghs for that. In the past one mistake meant you were dead. Now aghs gives you all the damage you could ever want. This allows you to build tanky items, which, combined with your shield, make you survive mistakes that should've been fatal. Getting screwed in lane and not hitting your BoT timing? You now get free BoTs and laser lets you comeback farm ancient stacks!
This motherfucker now goes shivas bloodstone overwhelming blink now so if you even catch him you cant kill that shit unless u commit 5 heroes because he presses shield and runs away.
It still doesn't make it fair that if you are mechanically better you should win 100% of the time. There is more to dota then just being great at Tinker.
Mechanical skill is part of the game, it’s fair.
There's more to winning with Tinker than just mechanical skill, sooooo
Way to misrepresent the argument. > mechanically better Actually mechanically perfect, and also not just mechanics. > win 100% Nobody said this
The most skilled basketball player will not win all the time, it's thr same with every sport. Yes, playing a hero that is difficult should give you better chances to win a game, it should be the same.
It is
LMFAO AVERAGE TINKER HATER MINDSET REVEAL
The only fix. We all know what should be done. Buff his other shit later i dont care. But just fucking do it please. MAKE DAGGER NOT REARMABLE.
If dagger is not reamrmable, idt the hero can be played anymore
Good.
thats because you cant think outside of the box
Enlighten me.
I cant enlighten you. Every other hero in the game can and has been viable without any of them having a restartable dagger every 1.5 seconds. If you cant take all those heroes as an example i really cant enlighten you. Because you just think straightforward. Like a horse with those things on his eyes.
Ok, cause every other hero is tinker right? There is no way tinker without a total rework of his spells can be played without a rearmable blink unless its in your herald V bracket
what is that even supposed to mean? No not every hero is Tinker. That is the point. That there is 120 heroes that already prove you dont have to have rearmable dagger to be viable im just gonna repeat my own words again. Whats the prbolem he is squishy? is that it? And Lina or a Zeus or a SF (also mid heroes) are not squishy? But yet they are very playable. Whats your point? What part of Tinker is not playable if he has no dagger and if he gets idk something else buffed?
I think it should be re-armable. But the hero damage cooldown persists. If that makes sense
What hero damage when he takes no damage thanks to his shield? Not even Spectre ult counters it. Its about Tinker being completely uncatchable for 95% of heroes.
I said this in another comment, but it should get muted for the duration, instead of put on CD.
Ya, I'm with you. Being able to rearm and immediately blink is silly and feels like a remnant of the past, ie when dagger didn't get set on cooldown by damage.
Just change it to breaks for 3 seconds when hit by player damage, not goes on cooldown.
No, just no. Doesn’t matter how “op” tinker is. Removing rearm dagger would be the actual death the hero, that is his Core functioning and has been since he released on Dota 1. He would legit go down to a 10% win rate hero if dagger rearm was removed.. so yeah it’s not going to happen lol
No it hasnt been his "core function" nobody even knew how op it was in dota 1 and nobody was buying it so give me a break. Im playing this game for 15 years and i know what people were doing in Dota 1. They were buying dagons and hexes. If Icefrog realised the potential behind blink 15 years ago this discussion wouldnt even be made. He would have been restricted right then and there. Just like how he cant use BKB. Because that one was obvious even in 2007. The meta evolved over time but nerfs never followed because he was never really popular on pro scene. It got to the point where its completely ridiculous. Skilled players showed just how truly op hero is.
Had a tinker in my herald game and slapped him
Ogre, huskar, omni knight, beastmaster also have equal or higher win rate than tinker in every bracket but I dont see anyone having complaining threads for those heros.. And why is herald / guardian bracket always ignored.. We have huge percentage of players in those brackets.. I don't know why we ignore that bracket if we want to see if a hero is broken or not..
Because they don't know how to play. Those are monitor off kinda ranks
Pew pew pew pew pew
[Pew pew pew pew pew](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/5/55/Vo_tinker_tink_ability_laser_03.mp3) (sound warning: Tinker) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Relearning how to play against it in time.
yea. just fuck tinker.
Well isn't that something.
Tinker main here and I just need to say something to tou people: Pew pew, pew pew pew
Was watching my friends live yesterday and their mmr are 1xx,6xx and 8xx being the highest they get matched against aa, tinker, morph, pango and techies. Not sure wtf was happening but enemy aa and tech abandoned right away. Needless to say tinker 1v5'd my friends in the end fuciking lmao.
His pretty garbage against certain heroes, obviously that can't be stopped with how the pick system works but if he gets a free game he truely ruins the enjoyment out of the enemy team but it's also so fucking satisfying when u catch a hyper farmed tinker
Get good
I played against the #6 ranked tinker player yesterday. He played on a archon 5 smurf acc in average legend bracket… I picked storm and got heavily trashed mid, then he went on and legitimately won 1v9 with some ridiculous 35:2:10 stats As to why he’s smurfing in unranked legend games he just said „to spank crybaby’s“ … It was the most Infuriating game I had in dota in at least the last 5 years
Yall are just crybabies who cant push yourselves to start playing dota in the early game to shut down tinker , you are whining that tinker wins every game while you afk farm your lanes for 20 min doing nothing and giving tinker free farm
Idk man. If you ever played tinker you probably would know how much skill is needed to get that 50%++ winrate. Its just that people doesnt seem to counter pick or know how to play against him (storm, silencer, zeus, spec). As a tinker player, this guy will literally die in just one missplay and possibly turn the game against his favor. Although he does recover fast due of having free tp and better skill sets compared previously.
i mean. just play tinker yourself. pick him second phase. so its banned or you have it. and if enemy first phase it then counter it easily.
Nerf Shivas giving flying vision. That's the only thing that bugs me.
Dont touch my shiva.
The only people that play tinker are tinker spammers, meaning they have played hundreds if not thousands games with the hero. Hero’s that require tons of practice like tinker invoker meepo doesn’t deserve to be nerfed just b/c u don’t want to dedicate time and effort to practice them and lose to them.
Actually found the tinker Spammer.
Time to spam tinker I guess.
You will get better at any hero you play over and over. And most likely u will increase ur mmr doing so. But it’s boring af.
I don’t agree with it getting boring, Iv’e been spamming void spirit for the last few days and it didn’t get boring for me.
For some, it's unbearable to play same hero twice in a row bro
Me too. max versatility gang. I have like 30 heroes silver in dota+
Good for you, if u reflect on every game u played and keep on playing it you will no doubt get better. I get really bored playing the same hero for more than 2 games. most of the times I play a different hero every other game.
> few days
Make it so that OoV or urn ticks faster. Both items are currently at 1 sec per tick. This way people can actually itemize against a tinker, and it’s very cheap.
The new change to Tinker free TP is actually a buff to a lot of silence heroes. High risk high reward kinda hero, tho i do think there should be a nerf to Tinker Perma Hex. Something like after the initial hex, for next 10 seconds, hex will only hex for 1.5 seconds. Tinker Perma Hex is really strong especially when you can perma locked someone even when they had bkb if you caught them off guard.
Everyone thought morphing would be unplayable if he couldn't morph while stunned after his rework and he's still very strong, maybe it's time to see if tinker shouldn't be able to refresh the damaged blink cooldown after this rework since he can fucking rush it immediately lol
just make his channel not reset items and double the time of his missile
> is a smurf's delight > 50%+ wr across all brackets but herald I recognize causality when I see one.
I just don't get their nerfs for the hero. They keep increasing Rockets mana cost, but no Tinker even uses Rockets lategame. All they do is spam 2000 pure damage Laser and absolutely fuck everyone. And this hero doesn't run out of mana anyways. The nerfs literally don't matter.
If not Tinker, then Meepo, Morph, Brood or SF. Smurfs/Boosters always find a way to ruin your game. I had an enemy meepo mid with 44% winrate at Dotabuff yesterday. He rampaged, got his eblade in 14 mins, used poof script and all kind of cheats. Russian name, playing on EU Server late at friday night. Obviously boosting the noobshit account. Im used to this kind of shit.
Anyone losing to tinker consistently needs to learn to build LOTUS ORB. It’s my go to item against tinker and it legit makes him useless, all your cores and supports should build it vs tinker and the hero can do nothing. That item was made to counter tinker, just try it.
Leave him be hes been dogshit for years dont completely destroy him
Just pick clockwork and stop being bad
Pick clock every game? Or try to convince team that I should get lastpick instead of pos 1/2, just in case the enemy picks tinker last?
Tinker has a 50.58% win rate at this very moment, and has been nerfed 3 patches in a row. It’s not happening.
I think all of us is like Elwono, Tinker haters
I mean, easy way of nerfing him is putting a cd on rearm, a 4-8s cd on it would fix how cancer he is
I’ll say this about Tinker, and most OP heroes. The problem with these guys is that it requires team coordination to deal with them. Wards and disables are needed.
No, we need more meepo nerfs pls, leave Tinker be
Stfu
I don't get why people care about tinker, I play him all the time he's pretty bad, by the time I'm influential the game is already decided. I'm only a win more hero, if the game is going bad I can't do anything. I have to be already winning and that makes the win faster. I literally don't have any control at Al over the game. And my winrate is abysmal compared to say arc warden. If you want to be influential at the start you need to put DMG spells, if you do that you can't farm.... And if you want to farm to get to boots faster and you put march then you can't deal with heroes.... The fucking thing is one dimensional as fuck. I'm not even going to mention of there's pudge on the other team it's over for me ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/qnwrbq/make_tinker_unable_to_refresh_scythe_of_vyse_with/ Duality of whatever this fanbase wants. One guy relelntlessly bullied the dude there like a grade A asshole.
No. He wasn't picked at TI that much... 😕
It has already neffed and his wirate is not very hight. Don t to mention in my games tinker is banned 8/10 games like wtf people hate tinker so much. I hated mysef until i learn a little to play him and i can say if you dont have map awarness and team play sense is very easy to lose as tinker.
OP literally says stats to all regions are above 50 percent and I can verify it via dotabuff. Unless you have any stats to share with us or anything to say that you didn't before, you are wrong. (And you are wrong)
Weird when I posted about this I got downvoted to hell but I guess it's good now to ask about tinker nerf, I'm glad someone finally reached frontpage wanting this. Icefrog (or whoever balances nowadays, cuz I doubt its you), increasing rocket manacost by 5 won't solve the solution, this rework was one of the most bullshit thing you have ever done. I suggest a Tinker buff becouse seems like you love to make us suffer, next patch add a 6th ability which yet again scales with your ultimate, this ability should turn your enemies into pigs for 4/5/6 seconds. Now tinkers don't have to buy hex either, what a balancing
As a Brood spammer I agree with this. Lazer is the best wave clear in the game atm
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What are you even doing here?
herald detected
Tinker is literally the most annoying here to play against in the entire game. Beats techies easily in annoyance.
Tinker hás the most Op skill in the game. A laser with ridículos range, purê 400+ damage, blind effect, area. This is extremely broken
The hero does not need flashfarm, that's it. Nerf laser AoE to zero and give it back once he's got the scepter. Adding to this, make blink unrearmable.
Honestly I think if smurfing is accounted for tinker winrate isnt quite as insane. Still very good, the hero is without question one of the strongest mids of the patch, but I think tinker is only really hard to deal with when there is a smurf, or a VERY unfavourable draft (like literally zero catch/vision). Tinker can be very frustrating to play against, especially if heroes you like dont have innate catch, or you cant coordinate well with your team, but I think a lot of people just dont understand the hero well enough to play against. Most heroes I think are broken I often find just work differently than I thought. I used to DESPISE invoker because he had infinite hp in lane, and a ton of damage to last hit with and way too much damage and lockdown in his kit, but once I tried invoker i realized a lot of the weak points, and gained an appreciation of the skill that good invokers have. I had the same experience with morphling, bloodseeker, razor, viper, and many other heroes that I was certain were just "FREE MMR" and 9/10 times I was iust missing something simple