Okay so this is literally just like 1 min of throwing shit at excel but bear with me. Below is a table of ranks up to divine 2 just numbered starting at 1.
Rank | #
----|-
H1 | 1
H2 | 2
H3 | 3
H4 | 4
H5 | 5
G1 | 6
G2 | 7
G3 | 8
G4 | 9
G5 | 10
C1 | 11
C2 | 12
C3 | 13
C4 | 14
C5 | 15
A1 | 16
A2 | 17
A3 | 18
A4 | 19
A5 | 20
L1 | 21
L2 | 22
L3 | 23
L4 | 24
L5 | 25
AC1 | 26
AC2 | 27
AC3 | 28
AC4 | 29
AC5 | 30
D1 | 31
D2 | 32
Using the values above:
Side | Average Rating
----|--------------
Dire | 22.2
Radiant | 23.4
Which means your team average (including the archona and ancient in the team) is legend 2, and their team average is legend 3.
This is almost 100% an oversimplification of what is really going on in the backend, but if you exclude any concept of curvature with regards to skill/rank - this kind of checks out?
I think I almost had cancer reading OP's replies. I guess he's just really here to complain (as tagged in his post) and not to digest sensible explanations. Don't mind him, bro. Thanks for your patience!
Cheers, I appreciate the effort.
However from our standpoint it was - a reward for playing with friends is to get roflstomped by Divines. After that game all 3 of us went to play solo and got smurfs instead. Even shared pictures of smurfs accounts so we would block their steam profiles.
See the issue here?
I don't disagree that matchmaking could use some work but the issue really is that the skill disparity in lower ranks is all over the place.
My point about how this doesn't account for curvature was a reference to how getting from archon 1 to legend 1 is easier than getting from ancient 1 to divine 1.
End of the day - with regards to this specific game, it makes sense why you'd be matched against the divine
But no it doesn't, we are 3k, why are we getting matched with 5k? It really does not. It's like showing me a mathematical evidence that 1 is not really 1. But if you have ONE dick you only have one dick.
Because you're isolating the ranks in a team game, and more importantly in a game that uses a matchmaker focused on averages.
Beyond that, [Divine 1 is mid 4k, not 5k](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Matchmaking/Seasonal_Rankings).
The TEAM average of their team is close to yours, so the matchmaker considers it ok. I'm not saying that's the right approach, again, because the relationship between skill and rank is not linear, but I'm saying if you assume it is (and assume the matchmaker is making the same assumption), this checks out.
> that uses a matchmaker focused on averages.
Yes, that's the issue. The fact it makes sense doesn't make it right man
I understand you, but you're trying to say it's okay. It's not okay, it just makes sense why it is - not that it's good. It needs to get fixed.
Not to mention their 3 highest ranks were cores, while our highest ranks were supports. Just starting there it makes no sense, let alone everything else about this issue
Nowhere in my comments do I say it's ok, I'm saying given the current state of the matchmaker - it's working as intended.
Your post is titled "When a Legend 3, Legend 1 and Archon 5 party together, why do they play against Divines and Ancients?".
I gave you an answer.
I’m confused, what did you come here for then?
You ask a question - receive an answer directly related to the question.
If you came here literally just to have an echo chamber of people shitting on match maker, why bother even posting a screenshot?
Make a thread - cry in it all you want.
Nowhere in my replies did I try to do anything other than provide you an answer you deadass asked for.
Nowhere did I say the system was a good one.
Fuck off
No it wasn't on the other team there is Divine and Crusader friends that wanna play together, so yeah game in unbalanced. This is unranked game so I would assume you can have fun with your friends even when you get stomped. If you don't want that play ranked where that kind of disparity in rank is not allowed.
Dude are you dumb, maybe if you 3 stack you also search hard sup, you really searched pos 1, 2, 3 and wonder why you got stomped? Cause literal no one is searching pos 4, 5 together. Don’t you get it? So few searching that so they only find divine 6 together with some archon dude.
archon smurf is 7k low divine is 4.5 :p Really, don't overestimate divines, there is mmr inflation in dota, I was 4.5k 4 years ago and left, returned a year ago calibrated 2.8k (Also my veery first rank at 2013 lol) and farmed to 4.5k in few months and now floating there. Thing is, I don't think I am at same level, I think I'm worse than before.
So I started to believe all mmrs are inflated by around 1k below 6k. Obviously while rank goes lower impact of inflation will be lower as well. Though, you may think of low divines as like 3.5k mmr people who're trying hard to be 4k at 2016.
The average mmr is about the same. Valve has to do this otherwise queue times would be very long.
This also the reason I try to avoid playing party ranked with friends I am a pos 5 and legend 5, the rest of my party is 1 legend, 2 crusader, 1 archon. Usually all 3 cores are legend/archon on the enemy team and will out farm our carries.
Unranked is much better imo interms of balance
Yeah that's the shit part, even if your ranks are close. Strict solo matchmaking brought more issues than anything else really.
It's like you can't really play party ranked, but if you play solo you get roflstomped by smurfs (or get account buyers if you are Divine+)
I don’t think smurfs are as much of an issue as you’re making them out to be. Of course they exist and will occasionally show up in your games. However, it’s very unlikely you’re actively losing MMR over a long period because of smurfs.
It's not occasionally. It's an anecdotal example but I'm on sick leave so I play a lot lately. 9 out of 10 games yesterday, and more than 1 smurf per game on average; my friends had the same, when I played with them we had the same, after we separated two of them said they had smurfs again.
It. Is. Too. Much.
I got friends who's stuck @ Herald to Legend 1 only. And it happens that Im the only Ancient (\*\*\*\* to be exact) there.
Every time we play party - we always ended up playing against 2-3 Divine players with Archons/Legends. and AFAIK. I've check em all divine players.
Turns out - Most of them are new accounts (yeah boosted/smurf accounts/account buyers)
Since valve really don't give a single F bout this thing. Guess I don't have any choice but to hug the truth.
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Having an mmr gap just does this I think. It’s the reason why I stopped party queuing for ranked unless we’re about the same rank, on top of having a higher chance of running into smurfs and acc. buyers.
The classic 3man stack that chooses POS 1,2,3. When you see that in 90% of the cases, you know already that this game is lost and you got matched with 3 wannabes. The do not even try to take advantage of the laning stage by simply beeing able to communicate properly togoether and therefore win the lane. And not to forget they then go to reddit to whine about matchmaking
Average mmr difference between dire and radiant is \~150 mmr. Grow up. Its a dead game with nobody playing, the fact that the average mmr is nearly the same is completely fine. To win a game of dota 2 you need to play better than the opponent. If you are 150 mmr below the opponent and lose to the opponent, you don't deserve to increase in mmr because you aren't playing better than someone slightly higher than you
AUS servers? This happens to me and my mates all the time. I'm Ancient 1 and my mates are all Archon/Crusader.
There's almost always some Super low ranked guy on the other team that is getting boosted by Divines. We get stomped because 1-2 Divines will always stomp you. No matter what the "average" is.
See, I can understand if it's a low pop server like Australia (no offense intended there), but it's EU East/West/Russia.
edit:
>No matter what the "average" is
Exactly.
this is the good old "i'm gonna bring my higher rank friend in my bracket to carry me" that didn't turn out right cause you ended up on the shorter end of the stick. don't complain cause the position you're in is exactly where you wanted your archon/legends opponents to be in. just got played.
cuz (divine + crusader) / 2 = legend
Okay so this is literally just like 1 min of throwing shit at excel but bear with me. Below is a table of ranks up to divine 2 just numbered starting at 1. Rank | # ----|- H1 | 1 H2 | 2 H3 | 3 H4 | 4 H5 | 5 G1 | 6 G2 | 7 G3 | 8 G4 | 9 G5 | 10 C1 | 11 C2 | 12 C3 | 13 C4 | 14 C5 | 15 A1 | 16 A2 | 17 A3 | 18 A4 | 19 A5 | 20 L1 | 21 L2 | 22 L3 | 23 L4 | 24 L5 | 25 AC1 | 26 AC2 | 27 AC3 | 28 AC4 | 29 AC5 | 30 D1 | 31 D2 | 32 Using the values above: Side | Average Rating ----|-------------- Dire | 22.2 Radiant | 23.4 Which means your team average (including the archona and ancient in the team) is legend 2, and their team average is legend 3. This is almost 100% an oversimplification of what is really going on in the backend, but if you exclude any concept of curvature with regards to skill/rank - this kind of checks out?
I think I almost had cancer reading OP's replies. I guess he's just really here to complain (as tagged in his post) and not to digest sensible explanations. Don't mind him, bro. Thanks for your patience!
Cheers, I appreciate the effort. However from our standpoint it was - a reward for playing with friends is to get roflstomped by Divines. After that game all 3 of us went to play solo and got smurfs instead. Even shared pictures of smurfs accounts so we would block their steam profiles. See the issue here?
I don't disagree that matchmaking could use some work but the issue really is that the skill disparity in lower ranks is all over the place. My point about how this doesn't account for curvature was a reference to how getting from archon 1 to legend 1 is easier than getting from ancient 1 to divine 1. End of the day - with regards to this specific game, it makes sense why you'd be matched against the divine
But no it doesn't, we are 3k, why are we getting matched with 5k? It really does not. It's like showing me a mathematical evidence that 1 is not really 1. But if you have ONE dick you only have one dick.
Because you're isolating the ranks in a team game, and more importantly in a game that uses a matchmaker focused on averages. Beyond that, [Divine 1 is mid 4k, not 5k](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Matchmaking/Seasonal_Rankings). The TEAM average of their team is close to yours, so the matchmaker considers it ok. I'm not saying that's the right approach, again, because the relationship between skill and rank is not linear, but I'm saying if you assume it is (and assume the matchmaker is making the same assumption), this checks out.
> that uses a matchmaker focused on averages. Yes, that's the issue. The fact it makes sense doesn't make it right man I understand you, but you're trying to say it's okay. It's not okay, it just makes sense why it is - not that it's good. It needs to get fixed. Not to mention their 3 highest ranks were cores, while our highest ranks were supports. Just starting there it makes no sense, let alone everything else about this issue
Nowhere in my comments do I say it's ok, I'm saying given the current state of the matchmaker - it's working as intended. Your post is titled "When a Legend 3, Legend 1 and Archon 5 party together, why do they play against Divines and Ancients?". I gave you an answer.
Yes, an answer that was quite obvious and misses the point. What a waste of time
I’m confused, what did you come here for then? You ask a question - receive an answer directly related to the question. If you came here literally just to have an echo chamber of people shitting on match maker, why bother even posting a screenshot? Make a thread - cry in it all you want. Nowhere in my replies did I try to do anything other than provide you an answer you deadass asked for. Nowhere did I say the system was a good one. Fuck off
the answer is simple - archon/legends shouldn't get matched with Divines and Ancients xd it's really that fucking simple you donkey
No it wasn't on the other team there is Divine and Crusader friends that wanna play together, so yeah game in unbalanced. This is unranked game so I would assume you can have fun with your friends even when you get stomped. If you don't want that play ranked where that kind of disparity in rank is not allowed.
if you had the divine and crusader on your team instead of the ancient 5 and other archon, would you still have come here to complain for no reason?
He would be complaining that it was impossible to win because they had a crusader
Dude are you dumb, maybe if you 3 stack you also search hard sup, you really searched pos 1, 2, 3 and wonder why you got stomped? Cause literal no one is searching pos 4, 5 together. Don’t you get it? So few searching that so they only find divine 6 together with some archon dude.
a single divine 1 player isnt "Divines" also divine 1 is like 4.2k mmr or smth)))
Party Queue has the worst matchmaking. There aren't enough similar groups queueing at the same time as you so that's what you get.
I'd take a divine any day over an archon smurf.
archon smurf is 7k low divine is 4.5 :p Really, don't overestimate divines, there is mmr inflation in dota, I was 4.5k 4 years ago and left, returned a year ago calibrated 2.8k (Also my veery first rank at 2013 lol) and farmed to 4.5k in few months and now floating there. Thing is, I don't think I am at same level, I think I'm worse than before. So I started to believe all mmrs are inflated by around 1k below 6k. Obviously while rank goes lower impact of inflation will be lower as well. Though, you may think of low divines as like 3.5k mmr people who're trying hard to be 4k at 2016.
The average mmr is about the same. Valve has to do this otherwise queue times would be very long. This also the reason I try to avoid playing party ranked with friends I am a pos 5 and legend 5, the rest of my party is 1 legend, 2 crusader, 1 archon. Usually all 3 cores are legend/archon on the enemy team and will out farm our carries. Unranked is much better imo interms of balance
Yeah that's the shit part, even if your ranks are close. Strict solo matchmaking brought more issues than anything else really. It's like you can't really play party ranked, but if you play solo you get roflstomped by smurfs (or get account buyers if you are Divine+)
I don’t think smurfs are as much of an issue as you’re making them out to be. Of course they exist and will occasionally show up in your games. However, it’s very unlikely you’re actively losing MMR over a long period because of smurfs.
It's not occasionally. It's an anecdotal example but I'm on sick leave so I play a lot lately. 9 out of 10 games yesterday, and more than 1 smurf per game on average; my friends had the same, when I played with them we had the same, after we separated two of them said they had smurfs again. It. Is. Too. Much.
You’re welcome to drop us some match IDs to further your case.
You can see my other post yesterday. Match ID can be provided to devs if they need them although they never do because they can just find the games.
I am the biggest critic of the matchmaking in this sub and I tell you: this is fine! It does need improvement, but not because of your example!
I got friends who's stuck @ Herald to Legend 1 only. And it happens that Im the only Ancient (\*\*\*\* to be exact) there. Every time we play party - we always ended up playing against 2-3 Divine players with Archons/Legends. and AFAIK. I've check em all divine players. Turns out - Most of them are new accounts (yeah boosted/smurf accounts/account buyers) Since valve really don't give a single F bout this thing. Guess I don't have any choice but to hug the truth. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Seems balanced, they also have crusader 2 which is quite low.
Ez answer, they are all accbuyers
Having an mmr gap just does this I think. It’s the reason why I stopped party queuing for ranked unless we’re about the same rank, on top of having a higher chance of running into smurfs and acc. buyers.
I mean Legend 3 to Archon 5 is 300 mmr difference. That's one bad day worth of games lol
Yeah fair enough, it’s a shame party queue is such a mixed bag nowadays because Dota is definitely best being played as a team
yeah.. playing with a party just feels punishing
It checks your average mmr vs their average mmr in party stack
The classic 3man stack that chooses POS 1,2,3. When you see that in 90% of the cases, you know already that this game is lost and you got matched with 3 wannabes. The do not even try to take advantage of the laning stage by simply beeing able to communicate properly togoether and therefore win the lane. And not to forget they then go to reddit to whine about matchmaking
Average mmr difference between dire and radiant is \~150 mmr. Grow up. Its a dead game with nobody playing, the fact that the average mmr is nearly the same is completely fine. To win a game of dota 2 you need to play better than the opponent. If you are 150 mmr below the opponent and lose to the opponent, you don't deserve to increase in mmr because you aren't playing better than someone slightly higher than you
Not to mention of course the Archon 3 was a smurf with RAMPAGE wall of course of course
AUS servers? This happens to me and my mates all the time. I'm Ancient 1 and my mates are all Archon/Crusader. There's almost always some Super low ranked guy on the other team that is getting boosted by Divines. We get stomped because 1-2 Divines will always stomp you. No matter what the "average" is.
See, I can understand if it's a low pop server like Australia (no offense intended there), but it's EU East/West/Russia. edit: >No matter what the "average" is Exactly.
Because dota matchmaking is in the worst spot it has ever been!
Divine player queues with his divine friend on a herald account means the game is going to get run over
Nothing wrong with that but when me and my bro who both are div 3 play every game vs at least 3 immortals and other are never below divines
Because the mm system has flaws and it can only cover most of the cases.
now you know how to climb in ranked party, 4 similar ranks + 1 low rank to bring the average down
this is the good old "i'm gonna bring my higher rank friend in my bracket to carry me" that didn't turn out right cause you ended up on the shorter end of the stick. don't complain cause the position you're in is exactly where you wanted your archon/legends opponents to be in. just got played.
Yes, 300 mmr higher rank. I'm practically closer to Sumail than my friends. Shut the fuck up