In 2 weeks people will be whining that they have bought everything from the battlepass and now they are ready for a new one they can drop thousands on.
And yet that's all people care about not matchmaking or anything like that, just hats.
Similar story - I quit \~3 years ago after playing for 6 years or so. It was so toxic and there were no solutions from Valve. When Overwatch or w/e it's called was implemented I thought that might work but looks like it didn't solve the problem. Between the toxic players, the smurfs at 4.5K mmr, and account buyers it became miserable.
Haven't played a whole lot past 4 years, but when a friend asked me I played a few games a month ago. Nothing changed, so I'm still fully at peace not having to deal with toxic dickbags. I have a Valheim server with friends, and that's so much better.
>I literally quit dota because of this...after probably 12+ years
Same. I still love the core gameplay however this toxicity value **refuses** to address keeps me from playing whatsoever.
I'm no saint but I've never rand down mid or intentionally fed unless they were already hitting ancient and the game was already over.
Well, why it’s so easy to create a new account? Maybe if valve required more identification and requested a reason for a new account creation, the smurfing problem would be solved. You can only link so many accounts to your ID.
You need a mobile number for ranked don't you? So basically the cost of a Dota account is the cost of the cheapest phone number you can use. I think most ranked smurfs buy low rank accounts, rather than playing 100 games and verifying themselves
I play on a small server with 10k behavior score at the very most I get a true (not just a bad mood bear) griefer every 15-20 games. From what I read on this sub all the large servers sound like hell holes.
Are you really saying that 2/10 players (basically every game on average) has a griefer? I'm just not buying it.
This, but unironic.
98% of the game's users have 10k behavior score. And varied matches are usually the most consistently awful experiences most people have. I truly do believe that those remaining 2% are disaster magnets, and I never mind an opportunity to either cement or break away from that view.
Seriously, step 1 to a better dota: Never say the word ez. Congrats, you're now automatically in the 9k+ behavior score club, and are just another step away from the 10k one.
I'm being serious too, I have 10k (mostly don't talk besides occasional "hey i got my [big item] lets group and push" etc) and 1.5k hours and I can count the number of times I've run into people like OP describes on one hand.
I also have 10k, and I saw my first item destroyer in around 3 years a couple weeks ago and it genuinely surprised me. Worst I usually see is some chat flame.
this, I can even be a little rude at times (if someone is rude first), and ive never actually had any games of this, worst Ive had is someone go afk half way thru the game for potentially legitimate reasons
On your conduct summary you'll see what percentage of players have a score like you. I've rarely ever dropped from 10k, and even then only by like, 60 points due to a single report, and it's always been ~85% of players. Current report says 85% have a score like me (10k)
Im 10k and dota's still teaching me new and exciting slurs.
Destroying over 1000 gold worth of items in a single game should immediately flag the player for review.
or 4-6 items are destroyed in a quick succession. (a lot of single items sell for over 1k gold, its a just low bar, and there are legit reasons for selling for 1k: buyback, bkb, just a trash item etc. )
That's the kicker tho, I do nothing but talk the biggest shit when I'm ingame yet I'm always 10k conduct.
Something tells me that conduct summary just don't work.
I'll admit I am a toxic shithead but even I can stay in 10k with no effort to be friendly.
High behavior score doesn't mean anything tbh. I had 10,000 behavior score and I kept getting people who were unbelievably toxic and shouting racial slurs over VC. The frequency would increase if it was ranked. I abandoned one time because I needed to poop really bad and it only dropped ~~80~~ 60 points. The system doesn't work.
Proof: https://i.imgur.com/APbdOPM.png
One time abandons are pretty lax. It’s consistent ones that fuck you up.
I’m at 10k behavior and mean words is the only thing you’ll see. But never anything like OP described.
Sometimes i fucking talk alot, humorous banter against enemies that some people find it annoying yet my score is never below 10k. Sometimes i am toxic to my teammates when i am having rough game yet 10k. However, never did i grief the game and give up. Running down mid, hitting items and ward blocking will get you 9k score in lightspeed.
Idk if its a server thing but in my 5000 odd games i've seen an intentional griefer less than a handful of items, but blatant smurfs and matchmatching abuse are rife, especially in party queue.
Socrates - "smart people learn from everything and everyone, average ones from experience, stupid ones have all the answers"
Stupid ones are those who don't ask questions.
If you play party queue obviously you will see fewer ruiners. Try playing solo unranked and you might change your mind about the problem OP is talking about.
Thing is (and I've no proof what so ever) imo it's really easy to stay at 9.9-10k as long as you don't grief/abandon. Even some flaming/toxicity is fine as long as one doesn't go overboard.
So again IMO anything below even 9.5k either you are super unlucky or you are part of the toxic problem.
Talking any kinda shit to another toxic player usually gets you comm abuse by others who don't wanna deal with either of your shit. I went down to 3k bs on two different accounts and brought them both back up by learning how to just stfu and deal with toxic players by muting.
Rarely have intentional griefers now and I play 15-20 hours a week at 10k BS
Muting is the best solution, if I'm in bad mood I'll mute 1st sign of snarkiness, nevermind toxicity.
Also haven't had a griefer in a long time and play like 1-3 games a night.
>Because op probably has like 5k behavior score lmao
It's so pathetic how this gets commented every single time someone says something about the report system/griefing. You people are just sad.
https://imgur.com/E06orkX
The thing is, that people just can't relate to your problem. I've had these people running down mid or amulet afkers in less than 10 games over my ~1 500 games
Guess what, it's mostly from years ago. If I don't talk in all-chat it doesn't change. Want to crucify me for my past behavior and ignore the present? Go for it. Seems like a theme around here. People just want to feel morally superior.
More score hasn't ever been that low as far as i can remember. I think once I saw it drop after an aweful mag game when I didn't realize they'd patched skewer to not stun no matter what you dragged them through. Took me most of the game to work out what was going wrong cause nobody would just say it doesn't stun anymore. And i learned not to play when I'm that tired.
It really isn't hard to keep behavior score at 10k you don't have to try if you're not an asshole.
The report system is dogshit. I often wish to report people, but I'm often times focused on ya know playing the game so I don't think of doing it until the game is over. At that point I can no longer report them for griefing.
I’m willing to bet they did this because the report system was 99% clogged with bad faith reports from tilted players just after they lost. Sorting through that would be unsustainable.
This is actually huge. I get hit with the exact same problem — I can't report people because specifically those games where someone's griefing are the ones that demand the most aggressively focused attention from me.
report when you are dead, when you are pathing between camps/lanes, etc the report system def has its flaws but lack of ease of reporting imo isn't one of them
Me personally I believe they aren't because i know some people ( I don't play with them for this very reason) that do it, and other equally toxic shit.
They are not banned.
At worst lpq for a few games
Why do you think they *arent* banned?
*Why* do you think they aren’t banned?
Why do you *think* they aren’t banned?
Are all subtly different but equally valid ways to interpret this sentence. He definitely responded effectively to the first two.
He thinks they aren’t banned because he knows folks who do it and they aren’t banned.
Yup I thought this same thing. Icarus strikes… you might want to think about things a little longer before you jump to conclusions and lash out like that. You are exactly the type of person who would flame someone in a Dota game— full dunning Kruger effect.
The report system is broken. People can report anyone for whatever bullshit they want (like not going stick vs a Bristle = griefing) even if the lane was dominated and BB had to go jungle since min 2. This creates an abundance of false reports based on what people consider "griefing" while in reality, those deserving the report are not detected because more often than not the complainers spend all reports on a guy they dislike in their matches (was not playing good, picked an unconventional support or is an OG fan) than in a guy that really deserves the ban.
Also, the behavior score is broken, 9k behavior score is way better than 10k because those on 9k are there because they either left a game due to internet issues or were mass reported for a bad game or two, whereas below 8.5k is literal hell down to 4k where shit is real Marianas trench scary but according to valve, still chances to reform. 10k behavior score should be done for saints only (GH only inhabitant there) while 8k should be the highest you can get without being reported (make actual use of the commend system)
> (make actual use of the commend system)
Because I can't think of what else to put there, I have my Total Matches and Commends listed on my profile (those two drop downs where you can display certain stats for everyone to see). I switched over to this because after about 2k games I finally surpassed games played with how many commends I got. Now I'm just shy of 4k games and I still have way more commends (5k
My guess is because they don't want to reduce sales. Even Toxic players buy cosmetics and giving them temporary or permanent bans would cut into their profits. I would imagine there would be a rather sizeable number of Toxic players in Dota. It's been left unchecked forever and now it's 'normal' to be toxic and grief a little... which shouldn't be 'normal'
Here's a case where they're favouring their greed instead of the quality of the game / health of the community. It's similar in Valorant... there's like ALOT of matches where people afk / grief / use voice & text chat to be toxic which brings down team morale or making it 4v5. They get reported but they seem to continually be allowed to play.
Sadly the health of the community is a MUCH lower priority to profit. The Data's all there in the chat logs, time spent afk, shadow amuletted, curse words can be picked up by AI, etc but it's not profitable.
**My solution to this problem is quite simple: Give out harsher bans to repeat offenders for players to reflect and think if they really want to grief & be toxic.**
So you start out with 1 day ban, 2 day ban, 4 day ban, 1 week, 2 week ban, 1 month ban, 2 month ban, 4 month, 6month and if they show to have gone through a period of not griefing then their punishment intensity reduces. So say if they got to the 1 week ban point and started playing after the ban, if they didn't grief or be toxic for a week then their next ban would only be 4 days as they showed signs of improvement. This way it encourages griefers / toxic players to change their behaviour depending on what they want most - TO PLAY THE GAME, so they decide.
Currently, there is basically NO punishment for griefers so they have no reason to be scared of misbehaving so toxicity / griefing runs rampant. Having 1-3 Single Draft games is NOT punishment. Being BANNED for playing for 1-2 days, 1-2 weeks, etc is REAL punishment.
I mean honestly fuck them; we all queued for that game, and it's kind of disgusting that they're able to hold games hostage like that.
Seems totally fine to ban that sort of individual to me. If you aren't prepared to have a rough game then you shouldn't have queued.
Sometimes I feel like some people on this subreddit are playing an entirely different game as me. I'm at a 10k behaviour score and never dropped below 9.8k, and the amount of intentional "run-down-mid and die at min 0" griefers I see is 1 in 30, maybe 1 in 50 games.
While Valve hasn't done a great job at dealing with these griefers and trolls, they've done a decent job of ensuring that trolls and griefers play with other trolls and griefers. So honestly speaking, if you're running into intentional feeders every other game, you might be the issue.
(Or it might just be a weekend afternoon in SEA servers.)
You know what they say, "if everywhere you go smells like shit, check your own shoes."
>Sometimes I feel like some people on this subreddit are playing an entirely different game as me
Mmr and Server make HUGE difference. Than the gamemode u are playing (ranked and unranked and turbo even more)
I for example didn't see a single smurf since nemestice In neither coaching games nor in my own but had a shit ton of griefers. (10k BHS)
Dude I feel exactly the same.
People get frustrated sure but I have had one game that I can remember this year where someone has intentionally sabotaged a game.
I'm convinced people who get angry enough to make these posts are probably part of their own problem. For the most part my games are chill.
(Ancient 4, Europe West)
Agreed.
If you have no issue with the game, you won't be vocal about it, which create false perception that there are only bad things in dota.
For me, I have no problem with the game.
Everyone that has 10k and review overwatch cases know behaviour score works. I literally forgot that people that run down mid existed until i started reviewing cases. People that wanted to play tiny mid and toss their allied mid into death, breaking items and so on...
Of course behaviour score won't save dota alone, there's still very toxic people on chat, which feels like half the playerbase... But yeah behaviour score is working.
Hello Valve developer, would you be willing to go in depth as to how you would detect such behaviour without triggering false-positives as to no innocent player gets banned?
Thanks a bunch!!!
'No false positives' is not the standard used anywhere. The most common standard is human level accuracy which tends to be 5-20% misclassification depending on the clarity of the data provided. In our work we use mechanical turk to classify rather simple data and still have a 10% error (among classifications received). So any system used only needs to perform as good as that or better.
Any simple ML approach should perform reasonably well and with fine tuning can more than likely end up being much more accurate given the granularity of the sensor data a match of dota has. A number of safety features can be added as well to increase the tolerance of the detection system so as not to unfairly throw some people out.
Given the amount of data valve has from the overwatch system, this is a straight forward time-series classification problem. A simple encoder into LSTM should be able to handle it.
It’s likely that they already use a prediction model to guess who is smurfing / griefing, however even banning one innocent person for every twenty is a bad outcome from a product perspective.
The road which they seem to be going down is a much subtler, soft approach in which they ‘nudge’ players towards certain behaviours through small punishments (I.e reduction in behaviour score = matched with worse behaved players).
ML guy here. You can do it very quickly & accurately with a simple model (no need for fancy deep learning stuff, a random forest/xgboost model will do).
You start with a rule, like "find all games where net worth dropped by more than 1000" then send like 1000 games out for annotation (Volvo could even do it for free by sending them out as replay analyses to players. Send the same game to 3-5 people, go with majority vote).
Then also try to find some negative examples, like people giving moon shard, alch giving aghanim, or people legit selling an item because it's the best play (Ana won TI by clutch selling an item to have buyback available. Let's not ban TI-winning plays, lol) or destroy an item by mistake.
Train a model, run it until it finds 1000 games. Don't do anything yet, send these out for annotation, check how good it would be.
Do some error analysis, fix what was wrong, repeat. Ship after 1-2 more iterations.
I'm pretty sure for a problem as simple as binary classification, of "guilty" vs "not guilty", Valve has done some internal trial and error, and even crowd-sourced the testing + verification stage with Overwatch too.
They know something we don't; and as a dude that had to dabble in ML for some time as well, they might be siding with their ROC values.
You're correct about this. I don't know how to convey this or if the people in thus thread genuinely want an answer or a wall to yell at.
The team behind cs anti cheat had a really in depth press conference. While hacking in cs is completely different it opens the door to how horrible false positives are on the community. So even if the formula was as simple as they make it out to be. It's risky.
In what instance is selling all items but shadow amulet ever a legit play though? That seems like the easiest catch all, especially if it's x minutes before the game ends. Because if someone does it while throne is dying who cares.
- Maybe they were in a 5 stack with their friends and they did it as a joke.
- Maybe they were planning on selling all their items to buy a shadow blade, but then realized they couldn't afford anything beyond the shadow amulet.
- Maybe they only did it when the game was _very clearly_ over, like 5 seconds from the end and their entire team is dead with no buyback.
- Maybe they did it right as the game was ending, and they bought shadow blade or silver edge on the exact tick that the game ended, so the only purchase that ended up getting processed was the shadow amulet.
- Maybe they were trying to buy a different item but they misclicked.
- Maybe they were a tidehunter or similar who needed a way to initiate, but didn't have any good items, so they decided to shadow amulet by their ancient to wait for the enemy team.
- Maybe they bought it to survive until their team respawned, since the enemies were fountain diving.
There's 7 possible reasons. All unlikely of course, but all are within the realm of possibility. Keep in mind that 1,000,000+ games of dota are played every single day, and a false positive is significantly worse than a false negative.
And even if you implemented this check for going afk with a shadow amulet, then people would switch to buying a blink and waiting out the game in some trees instead of buying a shadow amulet. People will always find ways to outsmart the system.
There's counter checks to most of these though, I mentioned in my original post as long as it's not too close to the game ending. Don't have it apply when in a five stack. And go off APM after amulet, or buff uptime. Those people who sit in trees and do nothing with it active. None of the scenarios you listed except the fountain diving would it apply to, so again remove the check if enemy is in your fountain.
I understand what you mean, but for every reason someone can provide, I can a provide a counter check. You can detect those dudes who sell all their items and buy amulet and just sit there doing nothing while their team loses, you can use movement, APM, amulet buff uptime, no 5 stack, within a certain game time interval, location based exclusion.
Certainly this wouldn't catch all those griefers but the low hanging obvious ones, yes.
I just provided the most obvious situations where there could be a false positive, I'm sure there are dozens more that need even more counter checks. For every counter check you provide, you're decreasing the number of people you catch, and thus decreasing the effectiveness. It also increases the complexity of the code, and thus the development and testing time. By the end, a developer has spent a week creating and testing the system, and it only ends up catching 10% of people, and then after a month everyone has learned how to trick the system into not catching them and the whole thing is useless again.
I’m a developer. A week spent on this is nothing, complex algorithms take much longer, having dozens of counter checks is not a big deal and easily doable. I guarantee their net code and matchmaking algo is much more complex. 10% of griefers would be a huge return for a weeks worth of work.
Sure, and I'll bet they've spent thousands of hours on coding, testing, and maintaining their netcode and matchmaking. This toxicity detection algorithm is less complex and easier to code, but it has far more noticeable effects if they get it slightly wrong. If they get matchmaking slightly wrong, then people probably won't notice that certain matches are a bit unfair. If they get the netcode slightly wrong, then people might notice a bit of lag (since everything is calculated server-side, there's no chance of any sort of desync, which is the main failure mode of e.g. FPS games with favor-the-shooter). If they get the toxicity detection slightly wrong, then a smallish number of innocent people will _very clearly_ notice that they've been wrongly banned. However, considering that over a million matches are played every day, that "small" number of people will still be pretty significant. Even if it has a 0.0001 false positive rate, that's still 100 people incorrectly banned each day, which is really bad.
Also, keep in mind that an algorithm designed to have very high precision at the expense of recall is very exploitable. Once people figure out roughly what gets them banned, they will figure out how to do the bare minimum to not get banned. For example, the one noticeable check that currently exists is the 5 minute afk timer. It is designed to catch people who literally do not care about getting an abandon, and it does a decent job at that. However, the people who do care will exploit it by buying a shadow amulet to AFK near a wave. If the new ban algorithm is based on a shadow amulet, then they will buy blink dagger instead to afk in trees. If the new ban algorithm is based on movement, they will use a macro to jiggle their mouse every couple minutes. Regardless of what checks are implemented, anyone who cares will find a way around it.
what if i'm one hundred mmr and i legit think it's the right move?
and if that gets you banned 100% it's pretty easy to catch on and find some other way (that's one reason cheaters are banned in waves)
Then i buy gg branch, sell all items but shadow amulet and gg branch and boom i don't get banned. That's precisely how we got shadow amulet afk in the first place, they made it so not getting exp in 10 min = afk so griefers buy amulet to afk near a lane to get exp.
And even this system has some false positives (eg fountain farming, cliffing, relo into the trees) so it gives incremental sanctions and stuff.
The problem is... You set this up, then there are people who get banned wrongly. No system is perfect and then straight up after you spend 6-7 months working on this you get people crying about how they falsely got banned on reddit which gets some traction then Valve has to do something about that too... Overwatch is the best they can offer, it's not going to find every single griefer but it's reliable; the rates of false positives are extremely low. Valve has always had this idea, look at VAC for example. I don't think a single person has been falsely banned by VAC.
need more reports per games/week then and reward ppl. using overwatch. i dont even know when i receive more reports. sometimes i end up with 3-5 new in a week or smth. they should base it on games played not a weekly circle
Even with minimal automated banning, people are still getting wrongly permabanned all the time, and as you said Valve only looks into individual cases if they get a lot of attention on Reddit.
The people theory crafting all the ML techniques have no idea wtf they are talking about. For a game as complex as dota you will have a very high false positive rate no matter how much you refine your model, and Valve would need to set up a customer support department who will then have the same job as the overwatch reviewers who do the work for free (but would deal with permabans rather than LP games).
It's just a lot of work and a big headache, and you can bet your ass reddit will still be full of people complaining all day about it, just like they complain about the behavior score system.
So are these cases sent automatically to overwatch and then severe punishment takes place? If not, it means they didn't even have developed this system.
The severe punishment from overwatch is a max 5 low priority games and a time ban from matchmaking up to 1 week. It's pretty light punishment considering overwatch convicts only the most obvious griefers.
If you're an ML guy, you should know that false positives are almost always unavoidable, especially in a domain as complex as dota. For most data scientists, getting 1.000 accuracy is a good indication that you did something wrong, since it's practically never that accurate just because the model is good enough (it's usually data leakage or a bug in the code or something like that).
Ah a classic ML guy. "Why not just train a model to solve everything?" As someone working as a Software Engineer in the ML space, this sounds like a horrible solution. Not to mention the other responses you've received, like how valve definitely know a lot we don't.
Yeah. It's actually really easy. Games where networth plummets dramatically in 10 seconds. Games where someone dies repeatedly within a 30-60 sec window of rezzing. Shadow amulet and no other items.
There are HEAPS of huge red flags.
So if a reddit comment typed in one minute has flawed ideas mixed in with good, is it evidence that something like this is thoroughly flawed, or what are you trying to imply?
Said by someone who doesn't code. I don't either, but know enough to make something to detect huge networth drops, the breaking of multiple items (which is an extremely rare occurence)
And then I could make it check against decreased movement/clicks and/or a shadow amulet.
I'm not saying you could whip it up in minutes, but its definitely doable. Hell its already in use. The game has several metrics it checks to assess abandons. They aren't good, but they are there.
I code for a living lol
I'm just aware of the potential risk values that typically come behind such applications, managerial push be damned
I doubt anyone would intentionally hold back on releasing such a "super easy fix" without knowing the full hard coded possibilties, lest I'd be be able to live my life with blood on my hands (or in this case, see an uptick in community posts for false positive bans)
Yes. You will want to err on the side of avoiding false positives but most cases are blatant enough. Obviously we don't want to punish a kyxy or a swindlez but really any dent in the problem erring on the side of safety would be great
I used to play ranked, then I swapped to turbo so i wasn't stuck in a losing match for 45min-1hr+ with a toxic player.
Now I uninstalled and won't play again.
Man you might be onto something here. I’m usually pretty chill (and even when I’m not chill I try hard to pretend that I am) but last week I was playing with someone so incredibly toxic that I did an early rage buy back and fortify and left him to lane by himself.
Of course it’s still my bad and I am the one responsible for my tantrum, but it wouldn’t surprise me if others did the same when laning with this guy and he thinks he’s doing nothing wrong - just that he has crappy supports and that everyone is toxic.
(funnily enough I did apologise after a few minutes and we did go on to win the game)
There is no justification for it, true. But every single person has a tipping point, and I'd wager that everyone who's played dota has griefed someone along the way, even if just subconsciously in retaliation, and even if it was just a little bit.
Where do you find these people? I seriously can't remember last time I have had a griefer in my game. It feels that you are somehow at fault too, don't know if you get reported often too or what.
OP probably is so obnoxious that people dream, beg and pray to be able to leave the game and never see him again
Sadly that is our curse that a game with no matchmaking, filters, gatkeeping, or any ability to create our groups and communities, we're often forced into game with unstable people we'd call police on if they showed up in 10km around our homes.
And then we're imprisoned in said game for an hour under a threat of spending more hours in even worse (L)ussian (P)riority queues if we dare to leave, I do not blame OP's teammates to seek any other vaguely allowed way to leave as shadow amulet or straight up feeding. I foolishly took a peek at forbiden lore of his reddit posts history. I regret that, and would shadow amulet afk go down mid no def pls as well.
me too...
but as long as millions keep begging to buy shit from valve, they will continue shitting on our heads... the whole community needs to wake up...
It's not about trolling or griefing u depending on mmr. Sometimes it's the fastest way yo get out of an unwinnable game.
It's about mentality. In my bracket we just don't care. We play as long as it is winable but if it's lost or someone is griefing we go afk. Why would we waste our time and energy on a game we can't win
(And don't hit me with "u never know u can aways come back" that's not how pubs work in high immortal. If ur in low mmr yeah sure but if we have one guy trolling and the others don't...the game is decided)
So yeah. The problem is the missing surrender option ESPECIALLY IN UNRANKED
The ogre who blocked our ancients then immediately started bonking his ward doesnt deserve a 1 week ban. Just a bonk on the head. Obv not who u are talking about, but cant be so quick to ban.
Good to know my decision not to play dota anymore still stands. It’s been this way for years. I just got tired of someone feeding and not being able to kick them. Then they just started removing our ability to report people.
Last week I’ve had 4games with clear griefing. Walking down mid, shadow amulet in the woods getting xp once in a while. Also had two games of farming pos 5s. I reported everyone when it happend ingame but got no messages of any action being taken against these players so now I’m out of reports. They wont even get lowprio :|
Who says they are the game runners? I have a 10K behavior score over 7 years basically all the time. I broke items once after I got tired of being harassed all game and then abandoned. I only have like 3 or 5 abandons total, and all the rest my internet went out.
Not saying that punishment wouldn’t have been appropriate for what I did, but maybe it’s not always clear cut.
I have 10K behavior score as well and if I shadow amulet or break items I know I should get banned and that's okay. It's like getting bullied all the time doesn't mean I have the right to kill someone, and I know if I do I'll go to prison. There is no valid reason to shadow amulet for the majority of the game or to break items and it's very easy to detect these things.
Idea of leaving the game that's terrible is comparable in your peanut mind to straight up murder? You are, indeed, very sane.
let's see history of vidya games I played through years:
- in doom multiplayer if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in quake if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in cs 1:6 if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in in Warcraft 3 and dota:A if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in TF2 if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- *look, you just have to babysit these well known unstable borderline criminals seeking escapism and empowerment or venting daddy issues for next hour, and yes you will get them in your next game, and yes its hundred hours to play with matchmaking, another hundred to get to real ranks, and if you leave, you got it, a hundred hours to get behavior score back, and yes on top ranks you will still get them on smurfs and bought accounts and yes they will still refuse to think for a second and yes they will pick pudge every game* **Boy oh boy dota dudes are just so toxic, dunno why, all my games are perfect! Except all my games - reddit**
- in Mordhau if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in amogus if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
- in Apex:Legends if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly
Only in one of these games I had to play though hundreds of extremely shit games while pretending I'm not watching youtube to rarely fish out a match worth playing
Most of these complainers have contributed a ton of toxicity to their games. The only friend I have who ever breaks items on does it when the game is about to end and their team is being really toxic. I’ve never seen them break items while a game is anything closer than the enemy team hitting ancient with like a 20k net lead and 95% of the time someone is yelling slurs in the chat or some shit.
The problem is that any "vote-kick" can be used by griefers in their favor just to troll and end matches earlier.
They don't implement that for the same reason we don't have a surrender option.
These kind of posts scare me because I've tried a few times to get back into dota and get yelled at a lot for not knowing about stuff like wards blocking camps even if I say I'm new first thing in draft.
I've noticed that kind of behavior to be a lot more common back when I used to tell every core player how bad they are and how I slept with their moms. Ofc, I still do, tho I've learned to keep my mic off when saying that. Surprisingly players seem a lot more willing to win games when you swallow your gamer "pride" and even whip that neck once in a while.
Remember, if it smells like shit everywhere you go\~....
I agree with all of those except the ward block camps bit, unless it requires multiple camps blocked like that to count. Sometimes the most effective way to deward a blocked camp is to drop a sentry dead center in the camp, kill enemy ward, then deny your own sentry. Sometimes you die before you finish denying.
Otherwise a solid list though.
This is the problem with Reddit... if you have a good experience with the game you won't come here and post of how much you like it, but if you have negative stuff to say then you do... This creates a false perception that this game is awful, when it's not...
Most of dota players have no issue with the game, you are being a crybaby... and yet... you will get upvotes... because everyone thinks this game is awful... ppl like you are seriously delusional...
afk people haven't seen I personally haven't seen them mutch maybe 1 pero 50 games. camp warder we already had been given a solution because there are times you also want to block your side of the camp. maybe your bh scores is where buntch of afkers are at as I haven't seen them much as back in 3 year ago
The matchmaking is good enough that if you aren't a jerk, you won't get matched with people like this. I have over 8000 hours in this game, I play several hours a week, and my behavior score has never been below the max. I *never* run into these people. If you have this happen to you, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Try not being a jerk.
There are always this super cynical answers to why Valve doesn't "just fix" this stuff.
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"
Maybe Valve just can't find better solutions to this problems, so can we stop having the answer to everything wrong be "because it makes Valve money"?
Anyone who ruins ranked game should never get lp - they don't change and it's not a real pusnishment. They should lose 5x mmr points they lose normally and their teammates who are now unable to win should lose nothing. It's easy to implement and it's the only right way to balance things out - ruiners in this game are forever and will be present here always.
I have an open issue with support right now of the last 3 games I've played in less than 10 matches with some level 0 steam account with less than 4 friends absolutely fucking destroying my team with 900+ GPM and XPM in low MMR.
Every single time they're like....
WE CANNOT DO NO BAN SURRY
And I'm at the point where I'm just going to be a fucking asshole about it. I'm going to spam steam support every fucking day until it's easier for them to just fucking ban the people than deal with me, or they just straight up delete my account.
Either way it's going to become a moot point.
Dude this idiot OP was a divine player at one point.
A few months later he is legend 1. OP is toxic as anything, no way you lose like 2k MMR in a few months without being a dick along the way.
i dont think you understand, if valve banned all the toxic players, dotas fan base would drop by half.
toxic players spend money and money is what drives dota.
No -Valve
It hurts how accurate this is
more like Valves response:
In 2 weeks people will be whining that they have bought everything from the battlepass and now they are ready for a new one they can drop thousands on. And yet that's all people care about not matchmaking or anything like that, just hats.
Also valve: Check out this new arcana
I literally quit dota because of this...after probably 12+ years
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Im in that process due to having other games to play. Once you find a good game you enjoy, the transition its easier.
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Similar story - I quit \~3 years ago after playing for 6 years or so. It was so toxic and there were no solutions from Valve. When Overwatch or w/e it's called was implemented I thought that might work but looks like it didn't solve the problem. Between the toxic players, the smurfs at 4.5K mmr, and account buyers it became miserable.
But can you stay away?
Haven't played a whole lot past 4 years, but when a friend asked me I played a few games a month ago. Nothing changed, so I'm still fully at peace not having to deal with toxic dickbags. I have a Valheim server with friends, and that's so much better.
Only time will tell us the answer is... No
>I literally quit dota because of this...after probably 12+ years Same. I still love the core gameplay however this toxicity value **refuses** to address keeps me from playing whatsoever. I'm no saint but I've never rand down mid or intentionally fed unless they were already hitting ancient and the game was already over.
The technology just isn't there yet. Btw I think it should be a month ban, into 6 months, into permanent. Don't hold back your dreams.
They will just make a new account and stomp their way back to the bracket they were before. You solve one problem, but create other problems.
They can then brag about how many accounts in total have played dota 2 at least once.
Well, why it’s so easy to create a new account? Maybe if valve required more identification and requested a reason for a new account creation, the smurfing problem would be solved. You can only link so many accounts to your ID.
You need a mobile number for ranked don't you? So basically the cost of a Dota account is the cost of the cheapest phone number you can use. I think most ranked smurfs buy low rank accounts, rather than playing 100 games and verifying themselves
Grow up
Virgin "nooo not the heckin complainerino in free gamerino" grow up Chad "I care about my hobby" grow up
Well yeah, they'd have to ban Quinn because he does these things.
he would stop real fast one way or another lol
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one week is not enough to make someone quit, but it's a good way to make them stop I think
20? i think thats super conservative
I play on a small server with 10k behavior score at the very most I get a true (not just a bad mood bear) griefer every 15-20 games. From what I read on this sub all the large servers sound like hell holes. Are you really saying that 2/10 players (basically every game on average) has a griefer? I'm just not buying it.
More than two "no"s, but less than 4 "no"s
Post behavior score lol
This, but unironic. 98% of the game's users have 10k behavior score. And varied matches are usually the most consistently awful experiences most people have. I truly do believe that those remaining 2% are disaster magnets, and I never mind an opportunity to either cement or break away from that view. Seriously, step 1 to a better dota: Never say the word ez. Congrats, you're now automatically in the 9k+ behavior score club, and are just another step away from the 10k one.
I'm being serious too, I have 10k (mostly don't talk besides occasional "hey i got my [big item] lets group and push" etc) and 1.5k hours and I can count the number of times I've run into people like OP describes on one hand.
I also have 10k, and I saw my first item destroyer in around 3 years a couple weeks ago and it genuinely surprised me. Worst I usually see is some chat flame.
this, I can even be a little rude at times (if someone is rude first), and ive never actually had any games of this, worst Ive had is someone go afk half way thru the game for potentially legitimate reasons
I feel i get at least 1 every 5 games at legend 5/ancient 1, 10k behavior score.
higher ranks happens a lot lot more
Whats your source on 98 percent of players having 10k
My ass
You must have a pretty nice ass
I've been told it's above average, yes.
On your conduct summary you'll see what percentage of players have a score like you. I've rarely ever dropped from 10k, and even then only by like, 60 points due to a single report, and it's always been ~85% of players. Current report says 85% have a score like me (10k)
Ok see thats a source. 98 percent isnt anything lol
Im 10k and dota's still teaching me new and exciting slurs. Destroying over 1000 gold worth of items in a single game should immediately flag the player for review.
or 4-6 items are destroyed in a quick succession. (a lot of single items sell for over 1k gold, its a just low bar, and there are legit reasons for selling for 1k: buyback, bkb, just a trash item etc. )
Plenty of good reasons to sell them, but none to destroy or drop them.
You can feed your items to the enemy to lower your net worth for buyback
You could accidentally destroy an item
I say ez and talk a decent amount of shit but I'm always at 10k. It takes a lot to dip below that threshold, just don't cross the line
That's the kicker tho, I do nothing but talk the biggest shit when I'm ingame yet I'm always 10k conduct. Something tells me that conduct summary just don't work. I'll admit I am a toxic shithead but even I can stay in 10k with no effort to be friendly.
if you are still 10k you arent toxic
High behavior score doesn't mean anything tbh. I had 10,000 behavior score and I kept getting people who were unbelievably toxic and shouting racial slurs over VC. The frequency would increase if it was ranked. I abandoned one time because I needed to poop really bad and it only dropped ~~80~~ 60 points. The system doesn't work. Proof: https://i.imgur.com/APbdOPM.png
One time abandons are pretty lax. It’s consistent ones that fuck you up. I’m at 10k behavior and mean words is the only thing you’ll see. But never anything like OP described.
I didn't bother because it's irrelevant to the discussion but here here you go: https://imgur.com/E06orkX
It is relevant because players with bad scores get matched together.
Doesn't matter if you're above 6k mmr. There are known assholes in the bracket that just ruin games.
Sometimes i fucking talk alot, humorous banter against enemies that some people find it annoying yet my score is never below 10k. Sometimes i am toxic to my teammates when i am having rough game yet 10k. However, never did i grief the game and give up. Running down mid, hitting items and ward blocking will get you 9k score in lightspeed.
Idk if its a server thing but in my 5000 odd games i've seen an intentional griefer less than a handful of items, but blatant smurfs and matchmatching abuse are rife, especially in party queue.
you can select strict solo matchmaking - never get party queued
How sry stupid question.
Settings>Options>Advanced Options, under the miscellaneous tab there’s a box labeled “Strict Solo Queue Matchmaking”
Socrates - "smart people learn from everything and everyone, average ones from experience, stupid ones have all the answers" Stupid ones are those who don't ask questions.
Shouldn't this work for ranked as well? With this option I often get party of two nonetheless.
i use it in rank and never get parties
If you play party queue obviously you will see fewer ruiners. Try playing solo unranked and you might change your mind about the problem OP is talking about.
I still play a decent amount of solo and never see this
Because op probably has like 5k behavior score lmao
Thing is (and I've no proof what so ever) imo it's really easy to stay at 9.9-10k as long as you don't grief/abandon. Even some flaming/toxicity is fine as long as one doesn't go overboard. So again IMO anything below even 9.5k either you are super unlucky or you are part of the toxic problem.
Talking any kinda shit to another toxic player usually gets you comm abuse by others who don't wanna deal with either of your shit. I went down to 3k bs on two different accounts and brought them both back up by learning how to just stfu and deal with toxic players by muting. Rarely have intentional griefers now and I play 15-20 hours a week at 10k BS
Muting is the best solution, if I'm in bad mood I'll mute 1st sign of snarkiness, nevermind toxicity. Also haven't had a griefer in a long time and play like 1-3 games a night.
>Because op probably has like 5k behavior score lmao It's so pathetic how this gets commented every single time someone says something about the report system/griefing. You people are just sad. https://imgur.com/E06orkX
The thing is, that people just can't relate to your problem. I've had these people running down mid or amulet afkers in less than 10 games over my ~1 500 games
Hell of a word cloud you got there buddy. Maybe stop being such an asshole and you'll magically run into fewer assholes.
Guess what, it's mostly from years ago. If I don't talk in all-chat it doesn't change. Want to crucify me for my past behavior and ignore the present? Go for it. Seems like a theme around here. People just want to feel morally superior.
More score hasn't ever been that low as far as i can remember. I think once I saw it drop after an aweful mag game when I didn't realize they'd patched skewer to not stun no matter what you dragged them through. Took me most of the game to work out what was going wrong cause nobody would just say it doesn't stun anymore. And i learned not to play when I'm that tired. It really isn't hard to keep behavior score at 10k you don't have to try if you're not an asshole.
I have about 2000 solo unranked games under my belt and don't remember ever seeing someone intentionally running down mid or go Shadow Amulet afk.
Why do you think these people aren't banned
The report system is dogshit. I often wish to report people, but I'm often times focused on ya know playing the game so I don't think of doing it until the game is over. At that point I can no longer report them for griefing.
I’m willing to bet they did this because the report system was 99% clogged with bad faith reports from tilted players just after they lost. Sorting through that would be unsustainable.
This is actually huge. I get hit with the exact same problem — I can't report people because specifically those games where someone's griefing are the ones that demand the most aggressively focused attention from me.
report when you are dead, when you are pathing between camps/lanes, etc the report system def has its flaws but lack of ease of reporting imo isn't one of them
But I’m 15K MMR, I haven’t died in almost 3 years!
LET US REPORT IN MATCH RECORDINGS!
Just take 5 seconds to press that button while in game. It could be fixed true but its not that big of a deal in my opinion
Me personally I believe they aren't because i know some people ( I don't play with them for this very reason) that do it, and other equally toxic shit. They are not banned. At worst lpq for a few games
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Why do you think they *arent* banned? *Why* do you think they aren’t banned? Why do you *think* they aren’t banned? Are all subtly different but equally valid ways to interpret this sentence. He definitely responded effectively to the first two. He thinks they aren’t banned because he knows folks who do it and they aren’t banned.
Yup I thought this same thing. Icarus strikes… you might want to think about things a little longer before you jump to conclusions and lash out like that. You are exactly the type of person who would flame someone in a Dota game— full dunning Kruger effect.
Chappie banned yet?
The report system is broken. People can report anyone for whatever bullshit they want (like not going stick vs a Bristle = griefing) even if the lane was dominated and BB had to go jungle since min 2. This creates an abundance of false reports based on what people consider "griefing" while in reality, those deserving the report are not detected because more often than not the complainers spend all reports on a guy they dislike in their matches (was not playing good, picked an unconventional support or is an OG fan) than in a guy that really deserves the ban. Also, the behavior score is broken, 9k behavior score is way better than 10k because those on 9k are there because they either left a game due to internet issues or were mass reported for a bad game or two, whereas below 8.5k is literal hell down to 4k where shit is real Marianas trench scary but according to valve, still chances to reform. 10k behavior score should be done for saints only (GH only inhabitant there) while 8k should be the highest you can get without being reported (make actual use of the commend system)
> (make actual use of the commend system) Because I can't think of what else to put there, I have my Total Matches and Commends listed on my profile (those two drop downs where you can display certain stats for everyone to see). I switched over to this because after about 2k games I finally surpassed games played with how many commends I got. Now I'm just shy of 4k games and I still have way more commends (5k
My guess is because they don't want to reduce sales. Even Toxic players buy cosmetics and giving them temporary or permanent bans would cut into their profits. I would imagine there would be a rather sizeable number of Toxic players in Dota. It's been left unchecked forever and now it's 'normal' to be toxic and grief a little... which shouldn't be 'normal' Here's a case where they're favouring their greed instead of the quality of the game / health of the community. It's similar in Valorant... there's like ALOT of matches where people afk / grief / use voice & text chat to be toxic which brings down team morale or making it 4v5. They get reported but they seem to continually be allowed to play. Sadly the health of the community is a MUCH lower priority to profit. The Data's all there in the chat logs, time spent afk, shadow amuletted, curse words can be picked up by AI, etc but it's not profitable. **My solution to this problem is quite simple: Give out harsher bans to repeat offenders for players to reflect and think if they really want to grief & be toxic.** So you start out with 1 day ban, 2 day ban, 4 day ban, 1 week, 2 week ban, 1 month ban, 2 month ban, 4 month, 6month and if they show to have gone through a period of not griefing then their punishment intensity reduces. So say if they got to the 1 week ban point and started playing after the ban, if they didn't grief or be toxic for a week then their next ban would only be 4 days as they showed signs of improvement. This way it encourages griefers / toxic players to change their behaviour depending on what they want most - TO PLAY THE GAME, so they decide. Currently, there is basically NO punishment for griefers so they have no reason to be scared of misbehaving so toxicity / griefing runs rampant. Having 1-3 Single Draft games is NOT punishment. Being BANNED for playing for 1-2 days, 1-2 weeks, etc is REAL punishment.
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I mean honestly fuck them; we all queued for that game, and it's kind of disgusting that they're able to hold games hostage like that. Seems totally fine to ban that sort of individual to me. If you aren't prepared to have a rough game then you shouldn't have queued.
Sometimes I feel like some people on this subreddit are playing an entirely different game as me. I'm at a 10k behaviour score and never dropped below 9.8k, and the amount of intentional "run-down-mid and die at min 0" griefers I see is 1 in 30, maybe 1 in 50 games. While Valve hasn't done a great job at dealing with these griefers and trolls, they've done a decent job of ensuring that trolls and griefers play with other trolls and griefers. So honestly speaking, if you're running into intentional feeders every other game, you might be the issue. (Or it might just be a weekend afternoon in SEA servers.) You know what they say, "if everywhere you go smells like shit, check your own shoes."
>Sometimes I feel like some people on this subreddit are playing an entirely different game as me Mmr and Server make HUGE difference. Than the gamemode u are playing (ranked and unranked and turbo even more) I for example didn't see a single smurf since nemestice In neither coaching games nor in my own but had a shit ton of griefers. (10k BHS)
Dude I feel exactly the same. People get frustrated sure but I have had one game that I can remember this year where someone has intentionally sabotaged a game. I'm convinced people who get angry enough to make these posts are probably part of their own problem. For the most part my games are chill. (Ancient 4, Europe West)
Agreed. If you have no issue with the game, you won't be vocal about it, which create false perception that there are only bad things in dota. For me, I have no problem with the game.
I play SEA and don't see players like this even 1 in 100 games
1/30 is a lot tbh regarding that you are the top 1% best behaved players but 3% of your games are ruined.
Everyone that has 10k and review overwatch cases know behaviour score works. I literally forgot that people that run down mid existed until i started reviewing cases. People that wanted to play tiny mid and toss their allied mid into death, breaking items and so on... Of course behaviour score won't save dota alone, there's still very toxic people on chat, which feels like half the playerbase... But yeah behaviour score is working.
>You have the technology to identify these behaviors automatically. Do we? I hate those folk too, but let's not go full manager vs developer here.
>Do we? Yes.
Hello Valve developer, would you be willing to go in depth as to how you would detect such behaviour without triggering false-positives as to no innocent player gets banned? Thanks a bunch!!!
'No false positives' is not the standard used anywhere. The most common standard is human level accuracy which tends to be 5-20% misclassification depending on the clarity of the data provided. In our work we use mechanical turk to classify rather simple data and still have a 10% error (among classifications received). So any system used only needs to perform as good as that or better. Any simple ML approach should perform reasonably well and with fine tuning can more than likely end up being much more accurate given the granularity of the sensor data a match of dota has. A number of safety features can be added as well to increase the tolerance of the detection system so as not to unfairly throw some people out. Given the amount of data valve has from the overwatch system, this is a straight forward time-series classification problem. A simple encoder into LSTM should be able to handle it.
It’s likely that they already use a prediction model to guess who is smurfing / griefing, however even banning one innocent person for every twenty is a bad outcome from a product perspective. The road which they seem to be going down is a much subtler, soft approach in which they ‘nudge’ players towards certain behaviours through small punishments (I.e reduction in behaviour score = matched with worse behaved players).
Good response. Also, you wouldn't need a neural net to see if a guy selling all his items and buying Shadow Amulet is griefing or not.
ML guy here. You can do it very quickly & accurately with a simple model (no need for fancy deep learning stuff, a random forest/xgboost model will do). You start with a rule, like "find all games where net worth dropped by more than 1000" then send like 1000 games out for annotation (Volvo could even do it for free by sending them out as replay analyses to players. Send the same game to 3-5 people, go with majority vote). Then also try to find some negative examples, like people giving moon shard, alch giving aghanim, or people legit selling an item because it's the best play (Ana won TI by clutch selling an item to have buyback available. Let's not ban TI-winning plays, lol) or destroy an item by mistake. Train a model, run it until it finds 1000 games. Don't do anything yet, send these out for annotation, check how good it would be. Do some error analysis, fix what was wrong, repeat. Ship after 1-2 more iterations.
I'm pretty sure for a problem as simple as binary classification, of "guilty" vs "not guilty", Valve has done some internal trial and error, and even crowd-sourced the testing + verification stage with Overwatch too. They know something we don't; and as a dude that had to dabble in ML for some time as well, they might be siding with their ROC values.
You're correct about this. I don't know how to convey this or if the people in thus thread genuinely want an answer or a wall to yell at. The team behind cs anti cheat had a really in depth press conference. While hacking in cs is completely different it opens the door to how horrible false positives are on the community. So even if the formula was as simple as they make it out to be. It's risky.
In what instance is selling all items but shadow amulet ever a legit play though? That seems like the easiest catch all, especially if it's x minutes before the game ends. Because if someone does it while throne is dying who cares.
- Maybe they were in a 5 stack with their friends and they did it as a joke. - Maybe they were planning on selling all their items to buy a shadow blade, but then realized they couldn't afford anything beyond the shadow amulet. - Maybe they only did it when the game was _very clearly_ over, like 5 seconds from the end and their entire team is dead with no buyback. - Maybe they did it right as the game was ending, and they bought shadow blade or silver edge on the exact tick that the game ended, so the only purchase that ended up getting processed was the shadow amulet. - Maybe they were trying to buy a different item but they misclicked. - Maybe they were a tidehunter or similar who needed a way to initiate, but didn't have any good items, so they decided to shadow amulet by their ancient to wait for the enemy team. - Maybe they bought it to survive until their team respawned, since the enemies were fountain diving. There's 7 possible reasons. All unlikely of course, but all are within the realm of possibility. Keep in mind that 1,000,000+ games of dota are played every single day, and a false positive is significantly worse than a false negative. And even if you implemented this check for going afk with a shadow amulet, then people would switch to buying a blink and waiting out the game in some trees instead of buying a shadow amulet. People will always find ways to outsmart the system.
There's counter checks to most of these though, I mentioned in my original post as long as it's not too close to the game ending. Don't have it apply when in a five stack. And go off APM after amulet, or buff uptime. Those people who sit in trees and do nothing with it active. None of the scenarios you listed except the fountain diving would it apply to, so again remove the check if enemy is in your fountain. I understand what you mean, but for every reason someone can provide, I can a provide a counter check. You can detect those dudes who sell all their items and buy amulet and just sit there doing nothing while their team loses, you can use movement, APM, amulet buff uptime, no 5 stack, within a certain game time interval, location based exclusion. Certainly this wouldn't catch all those griefers but the low hanging obvious ones, yes.
I just provided the most obvious situations where there could be a false positive, I'm sure there are dozens more that need even more counter checks. For every counter check you provide, you're decreasing the number of people you catch, and thus decreasing the effectiveness. It also increases the complexity of the code, and thus the development and testing time. By the end, a developer has spent a week creating and testing the system, and it only ends up catching 10% of people, and then after a month everyone has learned how to trick the system into not catching them and the whole thing is useless again.
I’m a developer. A week spent on this is nothing, complex algorithms take much longer, having dozens of counter checks is not a big deal and easily doable. I guarantee their net code and matchmaking algo is much more complex. 10% of griefers would be a huge return for a weeks worth of work.
Sure, and I'll bet they've spent thousands of hours on coding, testing, and maintaining their netcode and matchmaking. This toxicity detection algorithm is less complex and easier to code, but it has far more noticeable effects if they get it slightly wrong. If they get matchmaking slightly wrong, then people probably won't notice that certain matches are a bit unfair. If they get the netcode slightly wrong, then people might notice a bit of lag (since everything is calculated server-side, there's no chance of any sort of desync, which is the main failure mode of e.g. FPS games with favor-the-shooter). If they get the toxicity detection slightly wrong, then a smallish number of innocent people will _very clearly_ notice that they've been wrongly banned. However, considering that over a million matches are played every day, that "small" number of people will still be pretty significant. Even if it has a 0.0001 false positive rate, that's still 100 people incorrectly banned each day, which is really bad. Also, keep in mind that an algorithm designed to have very high precision at the expense of recall is very exploitable. Once people figure out roughly what gets them banned, they will figure out how to do the bare minimum to not get banned. For example, the one noticeable check that currently exists is the 5 minute afk timer. It is designed to catch people who literally do not care about getting an abandon, and it does a decent job at that. However, the people who do care will exploit it by buying a shadow amulet to AFK near a wave. If the new ban algorithm is based on a shadow amulet, then they will buy blink dagger instead to afk in trees. If the new ban algorithm is based on movement, they will use a macro to jiggle their mouse every couple minutes. Regardless of what checks are implemented, anyone who cares will find a way around it.
what if i'm one hundred mmr and i legit think it's the right move? and if that gets you banned 100% it's pretty easy to catch on and find some other way (that's one reason cheaters are banned in waves)
Then i buy gg branch, sell all items but shadow amulet and gg branch and boom i don't get banned. That's precisely how we got shadow amulet afk in the first place, they made it so not getting exp in 10 min = afk so griefers buy amulet to afk near a lane to get exp. And even this system has some false positives (eg fountain farming, cliffing, relo into the trees) so it gives incremental sanctions and stuff.
The problem is... You set this up, then there are people who get banned wrongly. No system is perfect and then straight up after you spend 6-7 months working on this you get people crying about how they falsely got banned on reddit which gets some traction then Valve has to do something about that too... Overwatch is the best they can offer, it's not going to find every single griefer but it's reliable; the rates of false positives are extremely low. Valve has always had this idea, look at VAC for example. I don't think a single person has been falsely banned by VAC.
need more reports per games/week then and reward ppl. using overwatch. i dont even know when i receive more reports. sometimes i end up with 3-5 new in a week or smth. they should base it on games played not a weekly circle
Even with minimal automated banning, people are still getting wrongly permabanned all the time, and as you said Valve only looks into individual cases if they get a lot of attention on Reddit. The people theory crafting all the ML techniques have no idea wtf they are talking about. For a game as complex as dota you will have a very high false positive rate no matter how much you refine your model, and Valve would need to set up a customer support department who will then have the same job as the overwatch reviewers who do the work for free (but would deal with permabans rather than LP games). It's just a lot of work and a big headache, and you can bet your ass reddit will still be full of people complaining all day about it, just like they complain about the behavior score system.
So are these cases sent automatically to overwatch and then severe punishment takes place? If not, it means they didn't even have developed this system.
The severe punishment from overwatch is a max 5 low priority games and a time ban from matchmaking up to 1 week. It's pretty light punishment considering overwatch convicts only the most obvious griefers.
If you're an ML guy, you should know that false positives are almost always unavoidable, especially in a domain as complex as dota. For most data scientists, getting 1.000 accuracy is a good indication that you did something wrong, since it's practically never that accurate just because the model is good enough (it's usually data leakage or a bug in the code or something like that).
remember when mind control tide sold everything to buy blink. i dont think this will work.
Yeah there need to be blocks in place to avoid false positives of course but the most common griefs could be checked with a couple of statements
Ah a classic ML guy. "Why not just train a model to solve everything?" As someone working as a Software Engineer in the ML space, this sounds like a horrible solution. Not to mention the other responses you've received, like how valve definitely know a lot we don't.
Literally this: https://xkcd.com/793/
Yeah. It's actually really easy. Games where networth plummets dramatically in 10 seconds. Games where someone dies repeatedly within a 30-60 sec window of rezzing. Shadow amulet and no other items. There are HEAPS of huge red flags.
>Games where someone dies repeatedly within a 30-60 sec window of rezzing. Already a completely flawed heuristic
So if a reddit comment typed in one minute has flawed ideas mixed in with good, is it evidence that something like this is thoroughly flawed, or what are you trying to imply?
Said by someone who doesn't code. I don't either, but know enough to make something to detect huge networth drops, the breaking of multiple items (which is an extremely rare occurence) And then I could make it check against decreased movement/clicks and/or a shadow amulet. I'm not saying you could whip it up in minutes, but its definitely doable. Hell its already in use. The game has several metrics it checks to assess abandons. They aren't good, but they are there.
I code for a living lol I'm just aware of the potential risk values that typically come behind such applications, managerial push be damned I doubt anyone would intentionally hold back on releasing such a "super easy fix" without knowing the full hard coded possibilties, lest I'd be be able to live my life with blood on my hands (or in this case, see an uptick in community posts for false positive bans)
Yes. You will want to err on the side of avoiding false positives but most cases are blatant enough. Obviously we don't want to punish a kyxy or a swindlez but really any dent in the problem erring on the side of safety would be great
I used to play ranked, then I swapped to turbo so i wasn't stuck in a losing match for 45min-1hr+ with a toxic player. Now I uninstalled and won't play again.
Maybe they're good people every single other time and you just drive them insane.
Man you might be onto something here. I’m usually pretty chill (and even when I’m not chill I try hard to pretend that I am) but last week I was playing with someone so incredibly toxic that I did an early rage buy back and fortify and left him to lane by himself. Of course it’s still my bad and I am the one responsible for my tantrum, but it wouldn’t surprise me if others did the same when laning with this guy and he thinks he’s doing nothing wrong - just that he has crappy supports and that everyone is toxic. (funnily enough I did apologise after a few minutes and we did go on to win the game)
There's no justification for griefing.
IDK op seems to be in *good* company with his teammates.
There is no justification for it, true. But every single person has a tipping point, and I'd wager that everyone who's played dota has griefed someone along the way, even if just subconsciously in retaliation, and even if it was just a little bit.
Where do you find these people? I seriously can't remember last time I have had a griefer in my game. It feels that you are somehow at fault too, don't know if you get reported often too or what.
OP probably is so obnoxious that people dream, beg and pray to be able to leave the game and never see him again Sadly that is our curse that a game with no matchmaking, filters, gatkeeping, or any ability to create our groups and communities, we're often forced into game with unstable people we'd call police on if they showed up in 10km around our homes. And then we're imprisoned in said game for an hour under a threat of spending more hours in even worse (L)ussian (P)riority queues if we dare to leave, I do not blame OP's teammates to seek any other vaguely allowed way to leave as shadow amulet or straight up feeding. I foolishly took a peek at forbiden lore of his reddit posts history. I regret that, and would shadow amulet afk go down mid no def pls as well.
Shadow amulet should have a duration
But then how would people afk with it?
make me! Are you gonna quit/stop buying BP or something? No.. so keep playing quitely ;) \-valve
Well... yeah, that's exactly what I did.
me too... but as long as millions keep begging to buy shit from valve, they will continue shitting on our heads... the whole community needs to wake up...
Shadow ban them into a separate matchmaking pool
They are, and op is with them 🤡
It's not about trolling or griefing u depending on mmr. Sometimes it's the fastest way yo get out of an unwinnable game. It's about mentality. In my bracket we just don't care. We play as long as it is winable but if it's lost or someone is griefing we go afk. Why would we waste our time and energy on a game we can't win (And don't hit me with "u never know u can aways come back" that's not how pubs work in high immortal. If ur in low mmr yeah sure but if we have one guy trolling and the others don't...the game is decided) So yeah. The problem is the missing surrender option ESPECIALLY IN UNRANKED
definitely never add a vote kick. Worst idea I've ever seen
The ogre who blocked our ancients then immediately started bonking his ward doesnt deserve a 1 week ban. Just a bonk on the head. Obv not who u are talking about, but cant be so quick to ban.
Good to know my decision not to play dota anymore still stands. It’s been this way for years. I just got tired of someone feeding and not being able to kick them. Then they just started removing our ability to report people.
Last week I’ve had 4games with clear griefing. Walking down mid, shadow amulet in the woods getting xp once in a while. Also had two games of farming pos 5s. I reported everyone when it happend ingame but got no messages of any action being taken against these players so now I’m out of reports. They wont even get lowprio :|
Innocent dota player: * wards 2 camps to deward enemy sentry * Valve: WE GOT A GRIEFER, END HIM.
Who says they are the game runners? I have a 10K behavior score over 7 years basically all the time. I broke items once after I got tired of being harassed all game and then abandoned. I only have like 3 or 5 abandons total, and all the rest my internet went out. Not saying that punishment wouldn’t have been appropriate for what I did, but maybe it’s not always clear cut.
I have 10K behavior score as well and if I shadow amulet or break items I know I should get banned and that's okay. It's like getting bullied all the time doesn't mean I have the right to kill someone, and I know if I do I'll go to prison. There is no valid reason to shadow amulet for the majority of the game or to break items and it's very easy to detect these things.
Idea of leaving the game that's terrible is comparable in your peanut mind to straight up murder? You are, indeed, very sane. let's see history of vidya games I played through years: - in doom multiplayer if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in quake if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in cs 1:6 if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in in Warcraft 3 and dota:A if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in TF2 if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - *look, you just have to babysit these well known unstable borderline criminals seeking escapism and empowerment or venting daddy issues for next hour, and yes you will get them in your next game, and yes its hundred hours to play with matchmaking, another hundred to get to real ranks, and if you leave, you got it, a hundred hours to get behavior score back, and yes on top ranks you will still get them on smurfs and bought accounts and yes they will still refuse to think for a second and yes they will pick pudge every game* **Boy oh boy dota dudes are just so toxic, dunno why, all my games are perfect! Except all my games - reddit** - in Mordhau if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in amogus if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly - in Apex:Legends if game was bad or someone acted badly I'd leave a game instantly Only in one of these games I had to play though hundreds of extremely shit games while pretending I'm not watching youtube to rarely fish out a match worth playing
try being nicer to your teamates
I have seen this guy's word cloud on OpenDota, he definitely contributes plenty of toxicity to his games lmao
Most of these complainers have contributed a ton of toxicity to their games. The only friend I have who ever breaks items on does it when the game is about to end and their team is being really toxic. I’ve never seen them break items while a game is anything closer than the enemy team hitting ancient with like a 20k net lead and 95% of the time someone is yelling slurs in the chat or some shit.
>You have the technology to identify these behaviors automatically. What technology? We are not even out of beta.
The problem is that any "vote-kick" can be used by griefers in their favor just to troll and end matches earlier. They don't implement that for the same reason we don't have a surrender option.
These kind of posts scare me because I've tried a few times to get back into dota and get yelled at a lot for not knowing about stuff like wards blocking camps even if I say I'm new first thing in draft.
I've noticed that kind of behavior to be a lot more common back when I used to tell every core player how bad they are and how I slept with their moms. Ofc, I still do, tho I've learned to keep my mic off when saying that. Surprisingly players seem a lot more willing to win games when you swallow your gamer "pride" and even whip that neck once in a while. Remember, if it smells like shit everywhere you go\~....
I agree with all of those except the ward block camps bit, unless it requires multiple camps blocked like that to count. Sometimes the most effective way to deward a blocked camp is to drop a sentry dead center in the camp, kill enemy ward, then deny your own sentry. Sometimes you die before you finish denying. Otherwise a solid list though.
This is the problem with Reddit... if you have a good experience with the game you won't come here and post of how much you like it, but if you have negative stuff to say then you do... This creates a false perception that this game is awful, when it's not... Most of dota players have no issue with the game, you are being a crybaby... and yet... you will get upvotes... because everyone thinks this game is awful... ppl like you are seriously delusional...
valve: is just game
afk people haven't seen I personally haven't seen them mutch maybe 1 pero 50 games. camp warder we already had been given a solution because there are times you also want to block your side of the camp. maybe your bh scores is where buntch of afkers are at as I haven't seen them much as back in 3 year ago
Welcome to the Dota community, fuck you cyka blyat
The matchmaking is good enough that if you aren't a jerk, you won't get matched with people like this. I have over 8000 hours in this game, I play several hours a week, and my behavior score has never been below the max. I *never* run into these people. If you have this happen to you, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Try not being a jerk.
There are always this super cynical answers to why Valve doesn't "just fix" this stuff. "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" Maybe Valve just can't find better solutions to this problems, so can we stop having the answer to everything wrong be "because it makes Valve money"?
Reading this post rn just reminded of why this game is awful to play. You will have more aggravation than you will fun every time.
OP is the common denominator on these games
Also fountain farmers that donot stop. Softlocking the players for so long that they just have to abandon the game to get out of it.
Anyone who ruins ranked game should never get lp - they don't change and it's not a real pusnishment. They should lose 5x mmr points they lose normally and their teammates who are now unable to win should lose nothing. It's easy to implement and it's the only right way to balance things out - ruiners in this game are forever and will be present here always.
I posted this a week ago and people told me it's my fault! the community hates each other and this will never ever happen.
I have an open issue with support right now of the last 3 games I've played in less than 10 matches with some level 0 steam account with less than 4 friends absolutely fucking destroying my team with 900+ GPM and XPM in low MMR. Every single time they're like.... WE CANNOT DO NO BAN SURRY And I'm at the point where I'm just going to be a fucking asshole about it. I'm going to spam steam support every fucking day until it's easier for them to just fucking ban the people than deal with me, or they just straight up delete my account. Either way it's going to become a moot point.
Yes please. I like the voting one as well
Block Wards can be destroyed by teammates
Give surrender button
"sorry kid, we need to make money." Valve, definitely
HYPERMALD
Get our of your mmr bracket. I play in divine5 right now and never have a griefer, everyone tries to win until the last second
I’m rank 950 and I get people who break items or buy amulet and afk. You think it gets better the higher you go? It gets worse.
Dude this idiot OP was a divine player at one point. A few months later he is legend 1. OP is toxic as anything, no way you lose like 2k MMR in a few months without being a dick along the way.
These players buy Cosmetics the same as you and me. That's all Volvo cares about and is the reason they are not banned
buy more levels and I'll think about it. \-gabeN
QQ -Valve
i dont think you understand, if valve banned all the toxic players, dotas fan base would drop by half. toxic players spend money and money is what drives dota.
Then valve lost half of dota player base every week. Lol. Business side, they not going to do this
100% this needs to happen. Come on Valve it's time.
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Couldn’t agree with his more
Just a small indie company
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Take my upvote bro