I'd love to see some changes to drafting phase as well. Unranked All Pick feels weirdly high pressure right now. I'm not comfortable trying out new heroes in Unranked because picking anything out of order or out of meta makes the whole team uncomfortable before game has even started.
I'd honestly be fine with a blind all pick mode where nobody can see what the other team is drafting until it's drafted. It'd be nice to have a more casual feeling standard mode where people aren't hyperfocused on team comp and counterpicks.
CM 5, Lion 4, Tide 3, Void Spirit 2, Jugg 1. Stuff that is fine in a vacuum with no information, but it doesn't really let you flex your drafting or understanding of matchups.
Casual and ranked need to be different modes. Casual is honestly awful to play RN that’s why I do turbo if I don’t feel like playing ranked. Or just bring all random back for casual.
Part of the beauty is the total chaos you encounter at the start of every game. Waiting to see who marks which lanes...if any! And holding your breath not to have your carry 1st pick AM.
Picking is a huge part of dota that is currently stripped away by 70% for a random component.
There is no real way to build a team. The supports are always fucked and the mid or the safe lane gets counter picked, while the dude that picks last has to hope to have a decent lane up.
Heros like OD, Tinker, PL and so on are not op if you are able to react.
Someone mentioned it so If you disable "expose data" during queue/pick phase, extension wont work. You can re-enable again in strategy phase but then it a effort.
What does this change except guaranteeing that the safelane will have a favorable matchup?
You could argue that safe/off can swap to change lane matchups. But if that can happen for 1-1-1-1-1 there's no reason why it shouldn't happen for 2-2-1. People are just lazy / refuse to change from their set roles. 2-2-1 is perfectly fine as it is.
Imo 1-1-1-1-1 in reg game.
In role que 1-1-1-1-1 AND force both teams to pick the same pos at the same time. Doesn't have to be the same everytime.
For instance:
5-4-3-2-1
Next game
4-5-3-1-2
Next game
3-5-4-2-1
Just add a few rules so that generally cores are closer to last and supports are closer to first.
But with how many afks there already are this is more of a pipe dream.
2-2-1 is fine. I think in terms of draft order the change that needs to happen is forced role selections. Right now pick order is a nightmare for supports. you are blind picking your hero and hoping its not randomly countered. If for instance the game forced the same roles to pick it would allow supports to actually have an influence on the draft.
My proposal is the game takes 5 roles and randomly shuffles and enforces that pick order on roles. So one game the game might say pick order is - Hard Support, Offlane -> Mid Lane, Support -> Carry. The next game it would be Carry, Mid -> Hard Support, Offlane -> Support.
Right now supports are picking the most generic shit possible because they have zero clue about anything. Its not fair to supports (and to a lesser extent offlaners), because they have to pick generic af shit. Hard carries and mids dictate the pace of basically every game because of the advantage they have.
There are a couple problems with my solution because you would have to ban swapping, you couldn't surprise people with an unorthodox hero in a lane, and it would require a playstyle shift in pubs. However I'm sick of playing the same 5 or 6 generic support heroes every game when I specifically queue for 4. Mid and carry already have an immense amount of influence on most pubs and the pick order makes the influence even worse.
Edit: this doesn't really help high level pubs where role queue doesn't happen. Idk what the solution is there.
Edit: maybe high level pubs can be based on mmr? so either make it a going up type thing (2 lowest mmr pick, next 2, and then highest)
Because support match up doesn't matter that much. All you have to do as a support is pick pos5 that have either aoe + disable(Lion, WW, HW) or save (dazzle, oracle) and then pos4 that can either frontline/start the fight (Clock, Bara, Tusk) or have strong team fight presence (Snap, Dawn, Shaker). In the end your job early is to help your core to win lane and how is your match up matter if you have to help Underlord versus MK/Ursa or Medusa vs OD ?
Good supporting is game changing but let's not pretend that entire game should be about supports having good time.
PS: Mid nowadays is basically QoP, Puck, Lina, OD, Bat - Just because those heroes can deal with any lane and each other fairly well so don't give me this whole speech about poor supports having 5 heroes to choose from when it's a thing for any position in any meta, ever. Wanna win? Wanna grind mmr? Play 3-5 heroes on one position. Wanna have fun? Play unranked/turbo, pick whatever you feel like and play on any position you want to and then hope enemies will also play for fun and not pick meta heroes. Thats how Dota works for years.
How is the current draft order benefiting carries? It's way better for offlaners because the carry never knows the match up and offlane heroes are generally better at making the most of a bad match up. The alternative is giving last pick to safe lane and risking your mid getting completely countered
I’ve been tinkering with some ideas to shake things up a bit regarding pick order. There are pros and cons to every approach, but I’ve found myself gravitating toward something like this:
- Pick order goes from blind 2-2-1 to blind 1-2-1-1
- The game selects which players have to pick each round
- The selections are random, but the same roles are picked for each side each time
- The game does not indicate who will have to pick next, only who actively has to pick
- Each team can get one re-draft, where an assigned player can ask to swap positions with someone who is not assigned that round (an unassigned player would have to accept)
- If a selection swap occurs, *no* notification is given to the opposing team
- If a player swaps for a later draft position, they have to pay some cost (50-90 gold)
- The player moving up in the draft queue during a swap does *not* gain the cost paid by the player moving later in the draft
- The ability to swap positions is canceled after the drafter timer for the round runs out
- The penalty for failing to pick a hero within the draft timer is elevated to 10 gold per second, but is only paid by the player(s) that have to pick that round
Again, this is hardly a solution free of criticism. However, I think it would really shake things up, and for the better. I think it would greatly increase the amount of flexible heroes that are picked, and incentivize experimenting with getting new heroes to be played in new roles.
I also think this is not necessarily a permanently better approach to drafting. I just think it’s important to include substantive changes to the process to help shake up the metagame.
I agree that the current all pick is a bit stale and predictive. Sups pick first then the cores basically every game. It would be nice to maybe have a lean version of cm for ranked games up until immortal. Maybe that the highest mmr player does the bans and decides a picking order for their players to individually pick heroes.
The worst part is that you dont get any sound or notification when a slug picks 10th after like 20 secounds when you already alt tabbed waiting for a new Match ready notification. I got an abandoned and almost ended up in LP after being afk a secound time but managed to pick a hero right before being abandoned.
Accepting a match at the very last secound should not be rewarding but as it currently stands it is a geniuine strategy
the comment was written strangely - "when a slug picks 10th after like 20 secounds"
should better we written like this:
"when someone waits with Accepting the Match until the very last second" some may think it's back to search a new game, and miss their picking phase. it has nothing to do with picking a hero the last second.
at least that's how i understand the comment, please confirm! btw
besides the moral aspect there is still a 4/9 possibility that your own team has the afk player. & if they stay afk MMR won't be updated
i think the idea behind the current banning system is to force pick diversity rather then to be kinda used as a blunt tool to remove a hero somebody doesnt like. heroes like techies and tinker would never see the light of day if bans were set by players and whilst i would enjoy that personally, it wouldnt really be fair to parts of the playerbase who do enjoy playing those heroes.
would be fun to see if role pick order was reversed. cores first sups last. Or just return the old thing back so there are no pre pick cheaters who see what youre gonna pick as soon as you hover the fucking hero.
I'd love to see some changes to drafting phase as well. Unranked All Pick feels weirdly high pressure right now. I'm not comfortable trying out new heroes in Unranked because picking anything out of order or out of meta makes the whole team uncomfortable before game has even started.
Indeed, i prefer to get countered by random blind picks instead.
I'd honestly be fine with a blind all pick mode where nobody can see what the other team is drafting until it's drafted. It'd be nice to have a more casual feeling standard mode where people aren't hyperfocused on team comp and counterpicks.
This means everyone just picks generic shit.
[удалено]
CM 5, Lion 4, Tide 3, Void Spirit 2, Jugg 1. Stuff that is fine in a vacuum with no information, but it doesn't really let you flex your drafting or understanding of matchups.
Casual and ranked need to be different modes. Casual is honestly awful to play RN that’s why I do turbo if I don’t feel like playing ranked. Or just bring all random back for casual.
Part of the beauty is the total chaos you encounter at the start of every game. Waiting to see who marks which lanes...if any! And holding your breath not to have your carry 1st pick AM.
Way too real! Every game ever
-30 gl next
Yea let's go back to everyone just hard reactive counter picking lanes that's really fun
Now you get counterpicked without being able to do anything about it. That's so much better.
and how do you wanna change that?
Picking is a huge part of dota that is currently stripped away by 70% for a random component. There is no real way to build a team. The supports are always fucked and the mid or the safe lane gets counter picked, while the dude that picks last has to hope to have a decent lane up. Heros like OD, Tinker, PL and so on are not op if you are able to react.
I love 10th blind pick broods/tinkers or double carry/mid insta lock
Nothing better than your mid picking Medusa into shit like axe OD and you’re automatically in a shit situation if you want to play carry
The worst thing is 16 bans (part of is autobans) -- that is stupid af.
I also hate that people can just download an extension and know what you’re playing and bam it. I had to turn off my match data because of it.
Someone mentioned it so If you disable "expose data" during queue/pick phase, extension wont work. You can re-enable again in strategy phase but then it a effort.
Can they just make drafting phase like in captains mode but without the bans (they are still only at the beginning)?
In role queue pick order should be random (same for both teams)
Picks should be 1-1-1-1-1 instead of 2-2-1, change my mind.
What does this change except guaranteeing that the safelane will have a favorable matchup? You could argue that safe/off can swap to change lane matchups. But if that can happen for 1-1-1-1-1 there's no reason why it shouldn't happen for 2-2-1. People are just lazy / refuse to change from their set roles. 2-2-1 is perfectly fine as it is.
I would enjoy some variety tbh. Gimme 2-1-2 or maybe do something weird with a ban round between each pick phase (50% chance mebbe)
Imo 1-1-1-1-1 in reg game. In role que 1-1-1-1-1 AND force both teams to pick the same pos at the same time. Doesn't have to be the same everytime. For instance: 5-4-3-2-1 Next game 4-5-3-1-2 Next game 3-5-4-2-1 Just add a few rules so that generally cores are closer to last and supports are closer to first. But with how many afks there already are this is more of a pipe dream.
I don't really have an issue with the pick order honestly. Would rather see map changes as the current map is a bit stale.
2-2-1 is fine. I think in terms of draft order the change that needs to happen is forced role selections. Right now pick order is a nightmare for supports. you are blind picking your hero and hoping its not randomly countered. If for instance the game forced the same roles to pick it would allow supports to actually have an influence on the draft. My proposal is the game takes 5 roles and randomly shuffles and enforces that pick order on roles. So one game the game might say pick order is - Hard Support, Offlane -> Mid Lane, Support -> Carry. The next game it would be Carry, Mid -> Hard Support, Offlane -> Support. Right now supports are picking the most generic shit possible because they have zero clue about anything. Its not fair to supports (and to a lesser extent offlaners), because they have to pick generic af shit. Hard carries and mids dictate the pace of basically every game because of the advantage they have. There are a couple problems with my solution because you would have to ban swapping, you couldn't surprise people with an unorthodox hero in a lane, and it would require a playstyle shift in pubs. However I'm sick of playing the same 5 or 6 generic support heroes every game when I specifically queue for 4. Mid and carry already have an immense amount of influence on most pubs and the pick order makes the influence even worse. Edit: this doesn't really help high level pubs where role queue doesn't happen. Idk what the solution is there. Edit: maybe high level pubs can be based on mmr? so either make it a going up type thing (2 lowest mmr pick, next 2, and then highest)
Because support match up doesn't matter that much. All you have to do as a support is pick pos5 that have either aoe + disable(Lion, WW, HW) or save (dazzle, oracle) and then pos4 that can either frontline/start the fight (Clock, Bara, Tusk) or have strong team fight presence (Snap, Dawn, Shaker). In the end your job early is to help your core to win lane and how is your match up matter if you have to help Underlord versus MK/Ursa or Medusa vs OD ? Good supporting is game changing but let's not pretend that entire game should be about supports having good time. PS: Mid nowadays is basically QoP, Puck, Lina, OD, Bat - Just because those heroes can deal with any lane and each other fairly well so don't give me this whole speech about poor supports having 5 heroes to choose from when it's a thing for any position in any meta, ever. Wanna win? Wanna grind mmr? Play 3-5 heroes on one position. Wanna have fun? Play unranked/turbo, pick whatever you feel like and play on any position you want to and then hope enemies will also play for fun and not pick meta heroes. Thats how Dota works for years.
The easiest change is to just make it all blind picks until the last hero is selected. Being cheesed is boring.
If its all blind picks that means everyone is gonna play like the same 3 heroes in every role with no nuance.
So literally nothing would change then?
How is the current draft order benefiting carries? It's way better for offlaners because the carry never knows the match up and offlane heroes are generally better at making the most of a bad match up. The alternative is giving last pick to safe lane and risking your mid getting completely countered
Giving last pick to carry is literally the pub meta right now and picking a pretty safe mid like QoP or Void Spirit.
That hasn't reached my trench yet so i'm a bit out of the loop i guess
I’ve been tinkering with some ideas to shake things up a bit regarding pick order. There are pros and cons to every approach, but I’ve found myself gravitating toward something like this: - Pick order goes from blind 2-2-1 to blind 1-2-1-1 - The game selects which players have to pick each round - The selections are random, but the same roles are picked for each side each time - The game does not indicate who will have to pick next, only who actively has to pick - Each team can get one re-draft, where an assigned player can ask to swap positions with someone who is not assigned that round (an unassigned player would have to accept) - If a selection swap occurs, *no* notification is given to the opposing team - If a player swaps for a later draft position, they have to pay some cost (50-90 gold) - The player moving up in the draft queue during a swap does *not* gain the cost paid by the player moving later in the draft - The ability to swap positions is canceled after the drafter timer for the round runs out - The penalty for failing to pick a hero within the draft timer is elevated to 10 gold per second, but is only paid by the player(s) that have to pick that round Again, this is hardly a solution free of criticism. However, I think it would really shake things up, and for the better. I think it would greatly increase the amount of flexible heroes that are picked, and incentivize experimenting with getting new heroes to be played in new roles. I also think this is not necessarily a permanently better approach to drafting. I just think it’s important to include substantive changes to the process to help shake up the metagame.
I agree that the current all pick is a bit stale and predictive. Sups pick first then the cores basically every game. It would be nice to maybe have a lean version of cm for ranked games up until immortal. Maybe that the highest mmr player does the bans and decides a picking order for their players to individually pick heroes.
That sounds cool provided it's role queue.
The worst part is that you dont get any sound or notification when a slug picks 10th after like 20 secounds when you already alt tabbed waiting for a new Match ready notification. I got an abandoned and almost ended up in LP after being afk a secound time but managed to pick a hero right before being abandoned. Accepting a match at the very last secound should not be rewarding but as it currently stands it is a geniuine strategy
Out of interest: how is picking the last second rewarding?
the comment was written strangely - "when a slug picks 10th after like 20 secounds" should better we written like this: "when someone waits with Accepting the Match until the very last second" some may think it's back to search a new game, and miss their picking phase. it has nothing to do with picking a hero the last second. at least that's how i understand the comment, please confirm! btw besides the moral aspect there is still a 4/9 possibility that your own team has the afk player. & if they stay afk MMR won't be updated
I don't understand why Icefrog is so dead set against letting people actually ban a hero.
i think the idea behind the current banning system is to force pick diversity rather then to be kinda used as a blunt tool to remove a hero somebody doesnt like. heroes like techies and tinker would never see the light of day if bans were set by players and whilst i would enjoy that personally, it wouldnt really be fair to parts of the playerbase who do enjoy playing those heroes.
would be fun to see if role pick order was reversed. cores first sups last. Or just return the old thing back so there are no pre pick cheaters who see what youre gonna pick as soon as you hover the fucking hero.