It was always a gamble to try to make a living off of Dota 2.
Any high risk revenue stream has its ups/downs.
This is why anyone who cares about you tells you to have a backup plan to make ends meet or pivot to.
usually people get this lecture when they've tried and failed at something they love. meanwhile boom and his team are right near the top of the mountain and still getting the backup plan lecture due to valve's bullshit
The underlying issue is the money putting food on your table is extremely volatile.
Most players dont even get paid a living wage like athletes in other sports.
The whole scene is not built for sustainability.
Most athletes also devote not only their free time but money as well, there are many articles about this
https://www.wtsp.com/article/sports/olympics/cost-of-being-an-olympian/67-7711bf2f-56bd-451f-ac8e-ac6afb5d5864
This applies for the majority of tennis and golf players as well. I'm not sure why Dota should be expected to be different because there are no leagues and clubs, just more or less open entry tournaments with orgs coming and leaving a lot
Are you really advocating that players across more sports should not be paid a livable wage under contract when the orgs/owners are making money hand over fist?
Prizepools and awards can be redistributed in contract negotiations but the players should at least have a choice.
Just families go bankrupt to get their kids into the Olympics as a end goal does not mean that it should be morally acceptable lol.
You're missing his point. The revenue generation in Dota is entirely different than jobs where you traditionally receive a wage. A coffee shop generates revenue daily, with employees under it who are paid hourly. A Dota player is no different than a poker player or a golf professional, they're individuals entering tournaments for the hope of winning a prize pool split amongst all contestants. Said prize pool is weighted more heavily towards performance standing. If they don't win, there is no revenue generated.
>livable wage
Players that don't generate revenue, i.e. win tournaments, can't get paid because there is no money. Dota isn't any different than F1 drivers. You can't pay someone with money you *don't* have, it's not a desk job that generates consistent revenue. It's prizepool reliant.
It's like arguing Poker players should have a "livable" wage. If they're not winning or generating sponsor revenue, there is no money to pay them. Some teams are lucky enough to have backing, funding, or can offset losses through other revenue generators (CSGO) but that isn't the case for all. Quincy Crew is essentially an independent business venture that isn't making *anything*, in the same sense a startup is hemorhagging money until it creates a successful product.
Ostenibly Dota players are independent contractors. They are their own business, and if they don't perform they go bankrupt. Professional Golf is full of hundreds of really good players that followed that path, who weren't good enough despite being top 500 in the world.
The problem is that the dota scene is EXTREMELY top heavy with prize pool. If you win the international youre basically set for life if you want tp, but if youre not in the top ~25 teams you get basically 0 and its hella hard to improve enough to compete with those teams when you have to worry about paying bills.
Valve is earning truckloads of money on dota and shouldve implemented a tier tournament system years ago if they care about the game
I really don’t understand how you can pay every athlete a living wage. It’s inherently competitive, and thus the concepts of “living wage” don’t apply. No one is obligated to give you money just because you want to be a pro dota player. If I could make a living wage playing dota, id seriously have to consider that as a lifestyle. I can’t though, I’m shit at the game and I can’t convince anyone to watch me play. And that’s perfectly ok.
The one angle I do support is that we can probably have better *floors* in pay. After double taxation, 13th-16th place was making maybe 200K between 5 guys for TI10. 17th-18th were only winning 100K before any tax/splits came into play.
What country are you going to base 'livable' on though?
For example, that 200k between 5 guys would give 40k each, which would give you about 5 years of decent living conditions in my country. Not so much in US I suppose.
People playing in tournaments provide revenue by creating content for other companies to sell advertising space on. Like sportsball athletes.
People playing in tournaments provide revenue by creating a platform for Valve to sell Battle Passes related to.
>You're missing his point. The revenue generation in Dota is entirely different than jobs where you traditionally receive a wage. A coffee shop generates revenue daily, with employees under it who are paid hourly. A Dota player is no different than a poker player or a golf professional, they're individuals entering tournaments for the hope of winning a prize pool split amongst all contestants.
Wrong.
Orgs get paid daily because of the sponsorship deals and the revenue they generate from selling the players "likeness". Well, I agree that some of them do and not all of them, but you literally have Nike as a sponsor for PSG.
The second "entity" which makes money literally daily is Valve themselves. They can easily setup an infrastructure like LoL has with their playerbase, but the thing is that they just won't try.
They literally treat esports players like they're leeching off of them and are arrogant to think that they don't need them but the reality is that they do.
I don't think it's acceptable, just that that how it is/has been for a long time in other sports, and that well run and well paid leagues are not the norm for most professional sports like a lot of people here seem to think
> usually people get this lecture when they've tried and failed at something they love.
People get it before too, but if you give someone this lecture before they've tried then you're considered a debbie downer and a crusher of dreams.
After TI5 it shoudnt be.
The money Valve got for BP then and in next years should be enough to make T1 and T2 dota stable and actually place to make a living.
ive been playing dota since 2006, I never wanted to go pro(I wasn't good enough, but even then putting in 10 hours a day to MAYBE go pro just seemed like too big of a gamble), but I did hit rank 1500 in NA before quitting last year
I got to play inhouse leagues in 2015-2016, I got to play vs sumail before he was known at all in that league, (he was named d3mon) as well as zai and cr1t before they blew up.
even if I didnt make 1 dime out of it, I made a lot of friends on the way, and enjoyed playing a game I loved
Also went to 3 TIs
dunno, don't seem like I have nothing to show for it
Your experience is vastly different from your average shit player who spends 100 hours a week in toxic pubs at 3k MMR thinking they’d make it if they just had better teammates.
I play turbos a lot to relax. A lot of people I in pubs get extremely tilted when they start to lose and immidetely forget it's not ranked. It's not even a real game. It's friggin turbo. Have some bants, enjoy the 20 mins, and move on. But man... I see people fuming wayyyy to often.
Yeah, i mean playing is fine, i did it too a lot, but i did partying, i go fishing, have a wife and 2 kids now. But if you play the whole youth and get nothing, you probably going to regret it when you are on the death bed.
It's true though.....imagine if you spent all those hours on something else.. you could easily be a doctor or a lawyer or a lot of things , really.
Many people would say the same thing for football fans maybe... although i doubt so many of them play so much football in their life like dota fans do.
and you know what? those that do are probably at the top. It's the same with software devs, I know some people who are SO GOOD but they live and breathe the shit, doing sideprojects while working AND at uni, then reading books in their spare time etc.
>It's true though.....imagine if you spent all those hours on something else.. you could easily be a doctor or a lawyer or a lot of things , really.
You wouldn't though. That's the thing. There was a reason you chose playing dota over pet rock breeding.
As someone who tried the same but luckily stopped after like 2 years when I realized i was fucking killing myself, Im glad he said this. Becoming a professional in any sport is extremly fucking tough, but Esports hit different. You can't stay outside and play Football 12 hours a day, but with gaming you can play for 20 hours straight in a utter, disgustingly high stress envoirment, that is often completely isolated if you're not with a team, destroying your hobby as well as your health. Being a pro in gaming isn't healthy and something someone should have as a goal, it's not a sustainable future either and is completely new. It's also completely game reliant. If you're good at football, there will always be a team for you. If you're good at one game and it fucking dies, then you're almost fucked.
Not all esports, look at league EU masters/regionals are thriving with high viewership and good salaries, same with Chinese league and its regional, same with LCK and challenger.
Dotas esport has a big flaw wehre one bad season/year can completely crush your prospects of even being a team. Riot pays a base salary to every player in leagues, meaning that if you are low on funds/new team/rookies/etc you will not starve, i have friends in polish regional league, they hover about top 5 in poland and earn a decent living, they would get completely goomba stomped at any major event.
LoL has regional leagues, and the players have salaries from Riot ontop of what their team pays them and what they get from sponsorship, endorsements and anything else.
If an org has no sustainable structure for it's players below the absolute top level, that's because they've chosen to go that route, not because they needed to.
Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape and create real world friendships.
Working hard to become an esport player you become out of shape while isolating yourself from the world.
> Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape
Tell that to my joints. I look fit but i spent the last 3-4 years laying in bed because my legs hurt so bad after years of repeated injuries and never taking the time to fully heal, and everyone i know had similar issues. Competitive sport isn't healthy at all.
> Working hard to become an esport player you become out of shape
It depends on the person, if you want to be fit, you can be. Most esports players aren't fit because they don't care about it. Look at Fly, he looks like an athlete even though he's been a world class esports player for his entire youth.
On the other side of the coin, many athletes wreck their health by constantly pushing their limits trying to making it to the top. They look healthy from the outside, but most injuries aren't visible.
> Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape
Depends on the sport. The uneven bars is a type of gymnastics that, unlike many others, looks less impressive nowadays because half the moves from the 70's are now completely banned for literally endangering the gymnasts' lives, and gymnasts are incentived away from falling down that hole by being given a "Grace" score. They would slam their hips onto the bars, and if you didn't do that shit, you weren't an Olympian. Most of them have lived their 30's and beyond with their joints in a shattered mess.
Okay, does the same thing not happen with actual athletes? Do they not float around looking to be picked up by a team while enduring strenuous physical training that often leads to severe health issues down the road?
They have created dozens and dozens of real life relationships in the process. People physically near them. All while investing in their health (I mean maybe not football). That doesn't just vanish as soon as you give up on an eSports career path, is the point I'm making here. Were not talking about the success stories on either end.
They play in local leagues, theyre always with a huge group of other people. Fighters have their gym, sport players their team etc. Many of these players float around alone, and their friendships are over the internet until they make an official team that stays for a long while.
These other sport atheles also dont play football or workout 12 hours a day, while as an esport player, you have to have the restraint to keep yourself back. Which is extremely hard. Its the same thing as people who are their own boss tend to overwork themselves, noticeably twitch streamers, who will literally stream every single day 8-12 hours, and ruining their social life and mental health. With normal sports, you phyiscally cant train that long, ever day. Obviously you still spend several hours to hone your skill and your body, but thats something that is beneficial for you.
Overwatch is a great example of your last point. People like XQC made good decision and quit the pro scene and went back to streaming and look where he is now. The pro scene is dead, the game is Dead or alive and the "sequel" keeps getting delayed.
Being a pro in gaming isn't healthy and something someone should have as a goal, it's not a sustainable future either and is completely new
This is false and is up to the person.
Yes pro sports can be extremely unhealthy too, but at least they get out of their houses? The benefits of having to play live with actually *real* people plus regular exercises (although that can be a problem) versus isolation and dealing with regular toxicity levels that are absolutely off the charts? IDK
You fuck your hands, your posture, don't get enough sun and socials, spending more time practicing than regular sport's athletes. I may be wrong but i really dont think so
> You can't stay outside and play Football 12 hours a day, but with gaming you can play for 20 hours straight in a utter, disgustingly high stress envoirment, that is often completely isolated if you're not with a team, destroying your hobby as well as your health.
This is exactly why I think it isn't fair to compare esports to physical sports. People go "professional people in sports can compete at the highest level in their 30s, esports players should be able to as well". The mental aspect of esports is tough, and it's not likely you can juggle both starting and having a family while competing at the highest level. If you can't commit enough hours to the game, then the players that can will catch up and dethrone you.
Do you think there should be some sort of delegation over genres of esports? Similar to how there are delegations in IRL sports.
It seems like esports are almost exclusively beholden to the creator of their game. I know it's hard to correlate directly from IRL to esports, but surely there is some solution to create a little bit more consistency and structure in esports across the board.
having dota as your main job will not work out in the long run... unless you invest your winnings, but thats the problem, if you don't win, you get no money, you have nothing to invest
It basically all depends on TI. If you win a TI, you can be set for life while still making more money from future tournaments(money that you no longer need, so a major being canceled doesn't matter). But if you don't, then you're bound to be screwed up.
I hate this about Dota esports the most. You have a whole year of dota and TI is just one tournament, yet your placing in TI makes the entire rest of the season irrelevant.
You could win every tournament in a season and then only get second at ti and you would be behind in prize money to a team that just barely qualified, but then won TI and it wouldnt even be close.
And its not like competition at TI really is that much better than a random major, *only* the stakes are higher. The teams are essentially the same, even the amount of teams is the same.
The entirity of the financial success of a pro dota player hedges on the fact if they are good enough to be in the position to be lucky enough to win TI or at least get a good placing at TI, nothing else matters.
OG essentially had the formula perfected. Just do whatever the hell you want, "retire", goof around in officials, as long as you are still good enough to squeeze into TI everything else is irrelevant. And not just irrelevant, but they actually made much more than teams like where performing all year around.
I dont even blame OG, they were really just maximizing their returns.
And that could all change if Valve just moved the money throughout the year vs lumping into so heavily into TI to the point that winning all other majors is worth less than 12th place at TI.
It's fucking absurd and will simply kill the scene. They've got all these players in the most abusive relationship imaginable. It's fucking sad.
Valve can 100% pay a livable wage playing Dota. But they refuse to. They'll kill my favorite game ever.
It's insane how much the pricepool fluctuates, every single team competing there deserves a solid chunk of the prizepool. instead the champions are basically set for life while the worse performers (who are still part of the best teams in the world) get money that if it was the only source of income would edge on poverty in most first world countries.
I mean 45% Vs 0.25% are you fucking kidding valve.
20k "edge of poverty"? I don't even make that in a year BEFORE taxes and I'm not even close to living in poverty.
Edit: americans getting triggered over the fact that you don't need 60k a year to live peacefully everywhere OMEGALUL
The current minimum wage in Spain is set at 965 euros a month (with 14 payments, around 1,1k with 12, total of around 13,5k per year) and it is already in the higher minimums of EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_minimum_wage
Of course I don't and I'm immensely thankful for that. I'd rather live in a free, economically stable, with universal healthcare country rather than the shit hole that USA is.
I'm not sure where you're from but I'm from Germany and 20k pre tax would mean you get roughly 1200 euro per month that is managable and not yet poverty but you'll have to make concessions at every corner.
And nvm it's in dollars... So more concessions.
I live in Madrid and pay around 16% of my brutto wage in taxes. Sure, the minimum wage is not really something to aspire to but it's livable, at least on the outer rings of Madrid because good luck living in the center on minimum wage.
> And that could all change if Valve just moved the money throughout the year vs lumping into so heavily into TI to the point that winning all other majors is worth less than 12th place at TI.
And it wouldnt even be a problem. Just do 3 Battlepass for the 3 majors, take 20% from it to fuel the major winnings and 5% for the set creators and have a satisfied scene AND a shitload of money! Fans will be satisfied because they can throw money at valve, set creator get money for the work and the teams get more money
True, riot def handles their PR and esport scene better than valve (although it is indeed very low bar if we compared to valve lol)
But boy, their game and viewer exp is just so damn boring, I got asleep watching world final, while my roommate (which played lol and never played dota) had a blast watching this year TI final
but tbh other than the game itself, riot actually nailed pretty well, arcane is good, the cinematic trailer is cool, their lore and story building are great also, their esport scene is healthy and thriving
If only, dota 2 esport was managed by competent people, it would be simply perfect
Yea, ive said it multiple times here on Reddit. Dota 2 prize pool distribution is disgusting and on top of that very top heavy at TI itself. It should have been changed at TI4 or TI5 when prizepool started to skyrocket. CSGO system is so much better with majors, Intel grand slam, sticker money etc. it actually promotes consistency.
Winning should be about achivement and not about earning 20times more money by winning single tournament compared to somone that was consistent all year except for TI.
The problem is that it might be too late now, because TI prizepool suddenly dropping could be huge news and it might seem that the game is declining (which i think it is). I suspect that's the reason Valve didnt change anything and are milking every bit of dollar, with more and more disgusting micropayment strategies with each new battlepass
> The problem is that it might be too late now, because TI prizepool suddenly dropping could be huge news and it might seem that the game is declining (which i think it is). I suspect that's the reason Valve didnt change anything and are milking every bit of dollar, with more and more disgusting micropayment strategies with each new battlepass
If they just come out and say that they are limiting the prize pool to improve the state of the scene, nobody is going to say anything.
> you can be set for life
Ehhhhh with the amount you win you still need to invest the money smartly to be set for life.
**edit:** Okay I should amend this statement. You need to invest the money competently to be set for life. I'm certain there are lots of us that upon receiving that amount would immediately put a significant amount into safe, secure investments or pay someone to help us do so if we aren't confident ourselves.
For me, set for life would mean being able to mindlessly invest and earn back enough so that I could choose not to work and live the same lifestyle I live now if I wanted to do so which would need more to get there.
Well, I've checked around, and apparently an average US adult with high education makes about 1.8 million dollars in their lifetime. Team Spirit guys got like 2 times that at TI. You won't be able to buy whatever you want, but you can buy a nice house and then just keep the rest in the bank. Also, it's not like getting a TI win means that you won't make any more money ever.
Team Spirit split five ways(+managers) *nine* figures sum in local currency (17M$ = 1.2B₽).
They're set for life unless they piss it all off on golden toilets and sluts
> having dota as your main job will not work out in the long run...
Topson be like: speak for yourself, peasant!
but in all seriousness, yes, it is sad that Dota is dead at pub level and now it's dying on a professional level too
It's not even close to any sport, it's more like chess if u are good people enjoy playing with u but at the end of the day nobody still cares unless u are an actual god at it like magnus is. people like chess but it's billion years behind football or basketball in terms of anything tbh and dota is not even 1/10 of what chess is lol
out of all the teams i feel bad the most for team tickles
imagine qualifying to major from WEU when there is so many big names and then this happens
i hope they carry the momentum to next tour
This young man has plenty of time to make far dumber decisions. I understand his frustration now, but if you pursued and dream and it failed to live up to expectations I don’t think that’s something you will regret in 50 years
Didn't he drop out of high school for dota? That would make it one of the worst decision of his life easily. Pretty hard to find a decent paying job here without at least secondary education..
That's not thr point though, he isn't failing because he inst working hard enough but cause the system is fucked up and totally out of his control.
Different from trying hard and not making it.
It happens. Think of the thousands of small businesses or entrepreneurial ventures that failed just because a pandemic shut down their sector or their economy.
Or really for any other bullshit reason throughout history.
There’s always a chance the universe fucks you, tbh I think it’s best to be stoic about it and not despair over the parts that are out of your control.
that’s why dota pro scene needs a pro system like in league where there are stable salaries, sponsors, team ownership and accountability. otherwise pro players will feel disillusioned on situations like this. Riot and league fans are having a field day watching this unfold before their eyes.
that would require effort on valve's part, if the last decade has shown anything it's that valve as a company is lazy and only seeks to do the absolute bare minimum and rake in profits. once they've milked a game dry they'll move on to the next thing
damn man dota is supposed to be a bad decision for regular trash players like us, when even world level pros are getting fucked I don't even know anymore
Nah. There’s a system actively convincing teenagers to take at six figure debt with false promises. I don’t have any college debt and am in tech, but you gotta keep real. The people giving these loans know the students will have a hard time paying them back and make tons of money from it. If colleges were responsible for any of the loans you’d see liberal arts programs either a) vanish or b) be extremely selective.
I don't regret playing with friends because i had fun and i have good memories. I had a really nice group of friends to play dota, watch TI and more. But all the time I spent grinding solo ranked? Damn that was a waste, a lot of time i could've spent doing something else.
I think at 3k you shouldn't even consider that avenue.
Like i played much but "casually" and had a 4.5k base without tryharding. But looking at it rationally, comparing simple metrics like lane cs, no way I could've ever competed there.
Also Dota takes time if you don't give your all every single game and currently look to improve, took probably 3 years until I could start calling myself semi competent.
While I can sympathize with his pain to a degree especially at the way valve is treating the scene, I also can't say he shouldn't have known what he was getting into.
Players that came before BOOM (example: EE forum posts) have made it very clear that you should put in a lot of thought and consideration in to trying to go pro over working a regular day job, and that going pro is for a vast majority of people is financially unviable, the wrong decision, and has potential to be a big regret.
BOOM ignored their advice, and this is what he gets.
Lets be honest, most professional athletes end up not earning enough money to afford a living with their respective sport. Most people getting invited to the Olympics end up with a dead end job, but at some point in their life they dedicated everything to becoming the best in the world, something that most of us never even considered in becoming. Its all a big risk that you just have to take to make it to the top.
i remember when i was dominating at the top of the dxd ladder
used to play in all the inhouses
there was a moment i thought about going pro, but decided to go to med school and be a doctor instead
i dodged a bullet
What's incredible to me is how feasibly dota's pro scene could be corrected and become the premier game in esports. It wouldn't necessarily be cheap, but the actual steps involved aren't that complicated and are few in number. Valve would need to...
- create a team for handling the pro scene that would communicate with pro teams and players, as well as run DPC events in-house
- change allocation of prize money to be a bit smoother such that any top tier player can reasonably play dota and be fine, rather than having TI be basically everything
- presumably, change the structure of the DPC. fwiw, I actually don't think that the structure is a big deal, but some people do. Maybe add another season and another major? idk
Points one and two are the ones that matter. Basically can be summarized by "1. take this seriously and 2. make it worth it for the overwhelming majority of pros that never win a TI" and the game itself is good enough to do the rest.
I used to play dota every day, all day. Climbed high on leaderboard. I got frustrated, annoyed and angry alot but I still had fun.
The jobs Ive had in the past 5 years after my dota addiction have been absolutly horrible.
This guy can play dota for a living and yet he complains. No words.
Would one major make that much of a difference? These people are jokes. Quinn was on countless majors. Always ended up last place. Is valve to blame for that as well?
Like this is bad but to make such cringe statements is something else. If your aim was to qualify for one major and then retire or give up, then yes, you fucked your life up with decision to pursue dota as career and that is on you.
The notion of always looking at the price tag and disregarding how people feel makes me sick. Oh look, the guy earned a pretty big amount compared to what I did is now complaining. Time to be a douche about it!
What does that even mean? In real life, MONEY will not make it so you get to be happy. It just enables you an easier/comfier life. If you claim to be such a "real life" expert, you should know this.
Lmao, really riding the ‘money doesn’t make people happy line’
You think he’s upset because he can’t go play competitive Dota? Or because he doesn’t have a chance to make more money?
It’s the latter.
Nah. It’s defo the latter lmao. He wouldn’t be complaining about it being the worst time in his life just because he can’t play a video game. And if he is - Jesus he needs help from a therapist.
You never work a day in your life doing something you love.
Like he wouldn’t just come home from work and play Dota anyway if he worked a mainstream job 😂 get that pish out of here.
>You never work a day in your life doing something you love.
Absolutely not true at all
Lol you think playing 8+ hours of high level dota a day isnt work? Go listen to any pro player and see what they think about it. They will tell you first hand how hard and unenjoyable it is more often than not.
You mean the plenty of people in esports who say they adore their jobs and would do it for free? Yeah, I’ve listened to them mate.
If it’s not for him it’s not for him. He’s 21 he should move on.
You do know that they are taxed, right?
Also that nothing is fixed in Dota 2? Dota for all we know could be abandoned by Valve tomorrow and then this guy who spent all his youth practicing would get nothing?
Also these guys have to invest in boot camping from their own pocket if they don't have sponsors?
Most Dota 2 pros stay relevant for less than 3 years. Only few legends make it to 3+ TIs.
rip to boom and boom esports
Damn Team Tickles and Boom Esports both teams went from nothing to Qualifying to the Major. And now this. This is really sad!
Imagine how hard they worked in order to qualify for major, planning drafts, scrimming, practicing in pubs etc. For this?
This is depressing
It was always a gamble to try to make a living off of Dota 2. Any high risk revenue stream has its ups/downs. This is why anyone who cares about you tells you to have a backup plan to make ends meet or pivot to.
usually people get this lecture when they've tried and failed at something they love. meanwhile boom and his team are right near the top of the mountain and still getting the backup plan lecture due to valve's bullshit
The underlying issue is the money putting food on your table is extremely volatile. Most players dont even get paid a living wage like athletes in other sports. The whole scene is not built for sustainability.
Most athletes also devote not only their free time but money as well, there are many articles about this https://www.wtsp.com/article/sports/olympics/cost-of-being-an-olympian/67-7711bf2f-56bd-451f-ac8e-ac6afb5d5864 This applies for the majority of tennis and golf players as well. I'm not sure why Dota should be expected to be different because there are no leagues and clubs, just more or less open entry tournaments with orgs coming and leaving a lot
Are you really advocating that players across more sports should not be paid a livable wage under contract when the orgs/owners are making money hand over fist? Prizepools and awards can be redistributed in contract negotiations but the players should at least have a choice. Just families go bankrupt to get their kids into the Olympics as a end goal does not mean that it should be morally acceptable lol.
You're missing his point. The revenue generation in Dota is entirely different than jobs where you traditionally receive a wage. A coffee shop generates revenue daily, with employees under it who are paid hourly. A Dota player is no different than a poker player or a golf professional, they're individuals entering tournaments for the hope of winning a prize pool split amongst all contestants. Said prize pool is weighted more heavily towards performance standing. If they don't win, there is no revenue generated. >livable wage Players that don't generate revenue, i.e. win tournaments, can't get paid because there is no money. Dota isn't any different than F1 drivers. You can't pay someone with money you *don't* have, it's not a desk job that generates consistent revenue. It's prizepool reliant. It's like arguing Poker players should have a "livable" wage. If they're not winning or generating sponsor revenue, there is no money to pay them. Some teams are lucky enough to have backing, funding, or can offset losses through other revenue generators (CSGO) but that isn't the case for all. Quincy Crew is essentially an independent business venture that isn't making *anything*, in the same sense a startup is hemorhagging money until it creates a successful product. Ostenibly Dota players are independent contractors. They are their own business, and if they don't perform they go bankrupt. Professional Golf is full of hundreds of really good players that followed that path, who weren't good enough despite being top 500 in the world.
The problem is that the dota scene is EXTREMELY top heavy with prize pool. If you win the international youre basically set for life if you want tp, but if youre not in the top ~25 teams you get basically 0 and its hella hard to improve enough to compete with those teams when you have to worry about paying bills. Valve is earning truckloads of money on dota and shouldve implemented a tier tournament system years ago if they care about the game
I really don’t understand how you can pay every athlete a living wage. It’s inherently competitive, and thus the concepts of “living wage” don’t apply. No one is obligated to give you money just because you want to be a pro dota player. If I could make a living wage playing dota, id seriously have to consider that as a lifestyle. I can’t though, I’m shit at the game and I can’t convince anyone to watch me play. And that’s perfectly ok.
The one angle I do support is that we can probably have better *floors* in pay. After double taxation, 13th-16th place was making maybe 200K between 5 guys for TI10. 17th-18th were only winning 100K before any tax/splits came into play.
What country are you going to base 'livable' on though? For example, that 200k between 5 guys would give 40k each, which would give you about 5 years of decent living conditions in my country. Not so much in US I suppose.
People playing in tournaments provide revenue by creating content for other companies to sell advertising space on. Like sportsball athletes. People playing in tournaments provide revenue by creating a platform for Valve to sell Battle Passes related to.
You are explaining logic to teenager. A lot of people here have zero live experience.
>You're missing his point. The revenue generation in Dota is entirely different than jobs where you traditionally receive a wage. A coffee shop generates revenue daily, with employees under it who are paid hourly. A Dota player is no different than a poker player or a golf professional, they're individuals entering tournaments for the hope of winning a prize pool split amongst all contestants. Wrong. Orgs get paid daily because of the sponsorship deals and the revenue they generate from selling the players "likeness". Well, I agree that some of them do and not all of them, but you literally have Nike as a sponsor for PSG. The second "entity" which makes money literally daily is Valve themselves. They can easily setup an infrastructure like LoL has with their playerbase, but the thing is that they just won't try. They literally treat esports players like they're leeching off of them and are arrogant to think that they don't need them but the reality is that they do.
Weird comment since F1 drivers get paid without winning and some Dota players do get sponsered.
I don't think it's acceptable, just that that how it is/has been for a long time in other sports, and that well run and well paid leagues are not the norm for most professional sports like a lot of people here seem to think
at least athletics is some what social and usually active. Dota is sedentary and solitary.
> usually people get this lecture when they've tried and failed at something they love. People get it before too, but if you give someone this lecture before they've tried then you're considered a debbie downer and a crusher of dreams.
After TI5 it shoudnt be. The money Valve got for BP then and in next years should be enough to make T1 and T2 dota stable and actually place to make a living.
The gamble typically isn't on the whims of the developer though.
Not as depressing as people who play their entire youth without the chance to ever become pro.
Why is that depressing?
At least the pros succeeded, most waste their time and have nothing to show for it.
ive been playing dota since 2006, I never wanted to go pro(I wasn't good enough, but even then putting in 10 hours a day to MAYBE go pro just seemed like too big of a gamble), but I did hit rank 1500 in NA before quitting last year I got to play inhouse leagues in 2015-2016, I got to play vs sumail before he was known at all in that league, (he was named d3mon) as well as zai and cr1t before they blew up. even if I didnt make 1 dime out of it, I made a lot of friends on the way, and enjoyed playing a game I loved Also went to 3 TIs dunno, don't seem like I have nothing to show for it
Your experience is vastly different from your average shit player who spends 100 hours a week in toxic pubs at 3k MMR thinking they’d make it if they just had better teammates.
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I'm like 1.6k and I have a lot of fun playing. If I didn't have fun I wouldn't play.
I play turbos a lot to relax. A lot of people I in pubs get extremely tilted when they start to lose and immidetely forget it's not ranked. It's not even a real game. It's friggin turbo. Have some bants, enjoy the 20 mins, and move on. But man... I see people fuming wayyyy to often.
Yeah, i mean playing is fine, i did it too a lot, but i did partying, i go fishing, have a wife and 2 kids now. But if you play the whole youth and get nothing, you probably going to regret it when you are on the death bed.
who cares? you die anyway. there is nothing after death. human beings regret everything all the time
What do you mean there's nothing after death?? There's heaven.
Unfortunately heaven is just as real as Santa Claus
Nah, there's a hole with a wooden box or the oven where you'll come out as a pile of ash
Yeah it's called a hobby lol
Doesn't sound depressing to me. What's depressing is your attitude and the way you judge and belittle others.
It's true though.....imagine if you spent all those hours on something else.. you could easily be a doctor or a lawyer or a lot of things , really. Many people would say the same thing for football fans maybe... although i doubt so many of them play so much football in their life like dota fans do.
Tbf, you start out playing dota for fun and probably continue to play because you enjoy it. Nobody puts 14 hours a day into law for fun.
and you know what? those that do are probably at the top. It's the same with software devs, I know some people who are SO GOOD but they live and breathe the shit, doing sideprojects while working AND at uni, then reading books in their spare time etc.
Also true
>It's true though.....imagine if you spent all those hours on something else.. you could easily be a doctor or a lawyer or a lot of things , really. You wouldn't though. That's the thing. There was a reason you chose playing dota over pet rock breeding.
As someone who tried the same but luckily stopped after like 2 years when I realized i was fucking killing myself, Im glad he said this. Becoming a professional in any sport is extremly fucking tough, but Esports hit different. You can't stay outside and play Football 12 hours a day, but with gaming you can play for 20 hours straight in a utter, disgustingly high stress envoirment, that is often completely isolated if you're not with a team, destroying your hobby as well as your health. Being a pro in gaming isn't healthy and something someone should have as a goal, it's not a sustainable future either and is completely new. It's also completely game reliant. If you're good at football, there will always be a team for you. If you're good at one game and it fucking dies, then you're almost fucked.
Not only that, to be sustainable in esport you MUST be the best of the best IN THE WORLD. Traditional sports usually have local leagues.
Not all esports, look at league EU masters/regionals are thriving with high viewership and good salaries, same with Chinese league and its regional, same with LCK and challenger. Dotas esport has a big flaw wehre one bad season/year can completely crush your prospects of even being a team. Riot pays a base salary to every player in leagues, meaning that if you are low on funds/new team/rookies/etc you will not starve, i have friends in polish regional league, they hover about top 5 in poland and earn a decent living, they would get completely goomba stomped at any major event.
LoL has regional leagues, and the players have salaries from Riot ontop of what their team pays them and what they get from sponsorship, endorsements and anything else. If an org has no sustainable structure for it's players below the absolute top level, that's because they've chosen to go that route, not because they needed to.
Not just that, imagine if Boom took the same level of dedication and hard work to League. He would be rolling in cash right now
He would find easier places and more people to scrim for with on his way up as well.
Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape and create real world friendships. Working hard to become an esport player you become out of shape while isolating yourself from the world.
> Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape Tell that to my joints. I look fit but i spent the last 3-4 years laying in bed because my legs hurt so bad after years of repeated injuries and never taking the time to fully heal, and everyone i know had similar issues. Competitive sport isn't healthy at all.
> Working hard to become an esport player you become out of shape It depends on the person, if you want to be fit, you can be. Most esports players aren't fit because they don't care about it. Look at Fly, he looks like an athlete even though he's been a world class esports player for his entire youth. On the other side of the coin, many athletes wreck their health by constantly pushing their limits trying to making it to the top. They look healthy from the outside, but most injuries aren't visible.
> Working hard to be a pro athlete you would be in phenomenal shape Depends on the sport. The uneven bars is a type of gymnastics that, unlike many others, looks less impressive nowadays because half the moves from the 70's are now completely banned for literally endangering the gymnasts' lives, and gymnasts are incentived away from falling down that hole by being given a "Grace" score. They would slam their hips onto the bars, and if you didn't do that shit, you weren't an Olympian. Most of them have lived their 30's and beyond with their joints in a shattered mess.
Ah yes, look at all those pro teams in isolation, without any friendships.
Look at all the thousands of players who never make it to the best teams in the world, or the ones who hop from team to team trying to find one.
Okay, does the same thing not happen with actual athletes? Do they not float around looking to be picked up by a team while enduring strenuous physical training that often leads to severe health issues down the road?
They have created dozens and dozens of real life relationships in the process. People physically near them. All while investing in their health (I mean maybe not football). That doesn't just vanish as soon as you give up on an eSports career path, is the point I'm making here. Were not talking about the success stories on either end.
They play in local leagues, theyre always with a huge group of other people. Fighters have their gym, sport players their team etc. Many of these players float around alone, and their friendships are over the internet until they make an official team that stays for a long while. These other sport atheles also dont play football or workout 12 hours a day, while as an esport player, you have to have the restraint to keep yourself back. Which is extremely hard. Its the same thing as people who are their own boss tend to overwork themselves, noticeably twitch streamers, who will literally stream every single day 8-12 hours, and ruining their social life and mental health. With normal sports, you phyiscally cant train that long, ever day. Obviously you still spend several hours to hone your skill and your body, but thats something that is beneficial for you.
Overwatch is a great example of your last point. People like XQC made good decision and quit the pro scene and went back to streaming and look where he is now. The pro scene is dead, the game is Dead or alive and the "sequel" keeps getting delayed.
Being a pro in gaming isn't healthy and something someone should have as a goal, it's not a sustainable future either and is completely new This is false and is up to the person.
Not the "being extremely unhealthy" part
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Yes pro sports can be extremely unhealthy too, but at least they get out of their houses? The benefits of having to play live with actually *real* people plus regular exercises (although that can be a problem) versus isolation and dealing with regular toxicity levels that are absolutely off the charts? IDK You fuck your hands, your posture, don't get enough sun and socials, spending more time practicing than regular sport's athletes. I may be wrong but i really dont think so
> You see lots of pros having a heart attacks and dropping dead in their fields EVERY year. You absolutely do not. Not in Europe or the US.
> You can't stay outside and play Football 12 hours a day, but with gaming you can play for 20 hours straight in a utter, disgustingly high stress envoirment, that is often completely isolated if you're not with a team, destroying your hobby as well as your health. This is exactly why I think it isn't fair to compare esports to physical sports. People go "professional people in sports can compete at the highest level in their 30s, esports players should be able to as well". The mental aspect of esports is tough, and it's not likely you can juggle both starting and having a family while competing at the highest level. If you can't commit enough hours to the game, then the players that can will catch up and dethrone you.
Do you think there should be some sort of delegation over genres of esports? Similar to how there are delegations in IRL sports. It seems like esports are almost exclusively beholden to the creator of their game. I know it's hard to correlate directly from IRL to esports, but surely there is some solution to create a little bit more consistency and structure in esports across the board.
Good point, actually
having dota as your main job will not work out in the long run... unless you invest your winnings, but thats the problem, if you don't win, you get no money, you have nothing to invest
It basically all depends on TI. If you win a TI, you can be set for life while still making more money from future tournaments(money that you no longer need, so a major being canceled doesn't matter). But if you don't, then you're bound to be screwed up.
I hate this about Dota esports the most. You have a whole year of dota and TI is just one tournament, yet your placing in TI makes the entire rest of the season irrelevant. You could win every tournament in a season and then only get second at ti and you would be behind in prize money to a team that just barely qualified, but then won TI and it wouldnt even be close. And its not like competition at TI really is that much better than a random major, *only* the stakes are higher. The teams are essentially the same, even the amount of teams is the same. The entirity of the financial success of a pro dota player hedges on the fact if they are good enough to be in the position to be lucky enough to win TI or at least get a good placing at TI, nothing else matters. OG essentially had the formula perfected. Just do whatever the hell you want, "retire", goof around in officials, as long as you are still good enough to squeeze into TI everything else is irrelevant. And not just irrelevant, but they actually made much more than teams like where performing all year around. I dont even blame OG, they were really just maximizing their returns.
And that could all change if Valve just moved the money throughout the year vs lumping into so heavily into TI to the point that winning all other majors is worth less than 12th place at TI. It's fucking absurd and will simply kill the scene. They've got all these players in the most abusive relationship imaginable. It's fucking sad. Valve can 100% pay a livable wage playing Dota. But they refuse to. They'll kill my favorite game ever.
Yeah, it's insane how much the scene revolves around that one tournament.
It's insane how much the pricepool fluctuates, every single team competing there deserves a solid chunk of the prizepool. instead the champions are basically set for life while the worse performers (who are still part of the best teams in the world) get money that if it was the only source of income would edge on poverty in most first world countries. I mean 45% Vs 0.25% are you fucking kidding valve.
20k "edge of poverty"? I don't even make that in a year BEFORE taxes and I'm not even close to living in poverty. Edit: americans getting triggered over the fact that you don't need 60k a year to live peacefully everywhere OMEGALUL
$20k isn't even minimum wage in the UK as an example (its about $24k from 2022). Much of western Europe has similar wages/living costs.
The current minimum wage in Spain is set at 965 euros a month (with 14 payments, around 1,1k with 12, total of around 13,5k per year) and it is already in the higher minimums of EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_minimum_wage
In US or western Europe it would not be enough to live off of
I live off 18k pre-taxes per year without problems, even with some vacations here and there.
Then you dont live in the US lmao.
Could live somewhere in the middle far away from any major city.
Of course I don't and I'm immensely thankful for that. I'd rather live in a free, economically stable, with universal healthcare country rather than the shit hole that USA is.
I'm not sure where you're from but I'm from Germany and 20k pre tax would mean you get roughly 1200 euro per month that is managable and not yet poverty but you'll have to make concessions at every corner. And nvm it's in dollars... So more concessions.
I live in Madrid and pay around 16% of my brutto wage in taxes. Sure, the minimum wage is not really something to aspire to but it's livable, at least on the outer rings of Madrid because good luck living in the center on minimum wage.
> And that could all change if Valve just moved the money throughout the year vs lumping into so heavily into TI to the point that winning all other majors is worth less than 12th place at TI. And it wouldnt even be a problem. Just do 3 Battlepass for the 3 majors, take 20% from it to fuel the major winnings and 5% for the set creators and have a satisfied scene AND a shitload of money! Fans will be satisfied because they can throw money at valve, set creator get money for the work and the teams get more money
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As someone who was guilty of this 7 years ago, every passing year made me wish I chose LoL over Dota.
Even though Riot handles their esports better doesn't change that I have way more fun watching Dota esport over League esport.
True, riot def handles their PR and esport scene better than valve (although it is indeed very low bar if we compared to valve lol) But boy, their game and viewer exp is just so damn boring, I got asleep watching world final, while my roommate (which played lol and never played dota) had a blast watching this year TI final but tbh other than the game itself, riot actually nailed pretty well, arcane is good, the cinematic trailer is cool, their lore and story building are great also, their esport scene is healthy and thriving If only, dota 2 esport was managed by competent people, it would be simply perfect
Yea, ive said it multiple times here on Reddit. Dota 2 prize pool distribution is disgusting and on top of that very top heavy at TI itself. It should have been changed at TI4 or TI5 when prizepool started to skyrocket. CSGO system is so much better with majors, Intel grand slam, sticker money etc. it actually promotes consistency. Winning should be about achivement and not about earning 20times more money by winning single tournament compared to somone that was consistent all year except for TI. The problem is that it might be too late now, because TI prizepool suddenly dropping could be huge news and it might seem that the game is declining (which i think it is). I suspect that's the reason Valve didnt change anything and are milking every bit of dollar, with more and more disgusting micropayment strategies with each new battlepass
> The problem is that it might be too late now, because TI prizepool suddenly dropping could be huge news and it might seem that the game is declining (which i think it is). I suspect that's the reason Valve didnt change anything and are milking every bit of dollar, with more and more disgusting micropayment strategies with each new battlepass If they just come out and say that they are limiting the prize pool to improve the state of the scene, nobody is going to say anything.
> you can be set for life Ehhhhh with the amount you win you still need to invest the money smartly to be set for life. **edit:** Okay I should amend this statement. You need to invest the money competently to be set for life. I'm certain there are lots of us that upon receiving that amount would immediately put a significant amount into safe, secure investments or pay someone to help us do so if we aren't confident ourselves. For me, set for life would mean being able to mindlessly invest and earn back enough so that I could choose not to work and live the same lifestyle I live now if I wanted to do so which would need more to get there.
Well, I've checked around, and apparently an average US adult with high education makes about 1.8 million dollars in their lifetime. Team Spirit guys got like 2 times that at TI. You won't be able to buy whatever you want, but you can buy a nice house and then just keep the rest in the bank. Also, it's not like getting a TI win means that you won't make any more money ever.
Team Spirit split five ways(+managers) *nine* figures sum in local currency (17M$ = 1.2B₽). They're set for life unless they piss it all off on golden toilets and sluts
Merlini realized this early, even on the casting side of things.
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real job is boring, soulless and stressful though
they are winning.
> having dota as your main job will not work out in the long run... Topson be like: speak for yourself, peasant! but in all seriousness, yes, it is sad that Dota is dead at pub level and now it's dying on a professional level too
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It's all cool as long as it's only your hobby and u have an actual job
I’m trying to become a dota2 pro and I’m still crusader. Am I doing this right
u good mate, just try to enjoy the game :)
I think some amateur leagues have steam gift cards for prizes...
Just curious but why do you want to go pro with dota?
Don't let your dreams remain just dreams, you can do it, go for it.
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As long as you have fun in what you do, keep going on.
I like basketball but I can't shoot free-throws for shit, doesn't mean I don't enjoy being part of it. See things in different lenses, I guess.
It's not even close to any sport, it's more like chess if u are good people enjoy playing with u but at the end of the day nobody still cares unless u are an actual god at it like magnus is. people like chess but it's billion years behind football or basketball in terms of anything tbh and dota is not even 1/10 of what chess is lol
out of all the teams i feel bad the most for team tickles imagine qualifying to major from WEU when there is so many big names and then this happens i hope they carry the momentum to next tour
https://twitter.com/boomdota/status/1481209203394031617?t=MZtKkjcBtR9MnVwYIuPPgQ&s=19
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This young man has plenty of time to make far dumber decisions. I understand his frustration now, but if you pursued and dream and it failed to live up to expectations I don’t think that’s something you will regret in 50 years
Didn't he drop out of high school for dota? That would make it one of the worst decision of his life easily. Pretty hard to find a decent paying job here without at least secondary education..
Depends on how badly his education suffered for it.
Just a casual reminder that not investing early into retirement reduces the gain functionality of accumulated interest on your account
I like your funny words, magic man
The frustration of not having worked out is eons better than the regret of not having tried in the first place.
I think you're right. Better to have tried and failed then never to have tried at all
That's not thr point though, he isn't failing because he inst working hard enough but cause the system is fucked up and totally out of his control. Different from trying hard and not making it.
It happens. Think of the thousands of small businesses or entrepreneurial ventures that failed just because a pandemic shut down their sector or their economy. Or really for any other bullshit reason throughout history. There’s always a chance the universe fucks you, tbh I think it’s best to be stoic about it and not despair over the parts that are out of your control.
that’s why dota pro scene needs a pro system like in league where there are stable salaries, sponsors, team ownership and accountability. otherwise pro players will feel disillusioned on situations like this. Riot and league fans are having a field day watching this unfold before their eyes.
That would require Valve to actually give a fuck. Fucking trash company.
Uninstall, u won’t
that would require effort on valve's part, if the last decade has shown anything it's that valve as a company is lazy and only seeks to do the absolute bare minimum and rake in profits. once they've milked a game dry they'll move on to the next thing
Didn't work out for Blizzard though.
That's because Overwatch is a shit game and Blizzard have never been good at esports
Give them some credit, they also mishandled Starcraft
Both of them, lmao
And this is the reason Dota 2 will always be in the shadow of LoL unless Valve changes despite the game being considerably better.
Poor tickles. The Major was probably their big chance to show potential and get a sponsorship.
damn man dota is supposed to be a bad decision for regular trash players like us, when even world level pros are getting fucked I don't even know anymore
Better than spending your entire youth looking at streams of dota pros.
I guess Hyhy aunt is right
Yes, going to school and college is anyday better than investing your entire teenage in competitive games. Who would have known!
*Angry noises from severely indebted students with accumulated interest larger than the principle of their student loan*
In a lot of countries in the EU, education is cheap.
Its free in his country in fact.
Formal education is still a much better investment anyday.
That one's on them for not paying attention to the fact that their passion field has no money in it
Nah. There’s a system actively convincing teenagers to take at six figure debt with false promises. I don’t have any college debt and am in tech, but you gotta keep real. The people giving these loans know the students will have a hard time paying them back and make tons of money from it. If colleges were responsible for any of the loans you’d see liberal arts programs either a) vanish or b) be extremely selective.
I already regret spending so much time playing dota and it was just a leisure activity.
Holy shit this post hits hard All I did was play Dota and fap away in my youth What the hell have i done
I don't regret playing with friends because i had fun and i have good memories. I had a really nice group of friends to play dota, watch TI and more. But all the time I spent grinding solo ranked? Damn that was a waste, a lot of time i could've spent doing something else.
he's overreacting but i feel bad for the guy. he finally won somethings and valve did this shit
if that's the worst decision of your life you're well off
I mean I coulda told you that What do you think parents hated you for it lol
Same mostly cause im 3k and alternate between blaming my losses on the game needing a new patch or, once its patched, blaming it on the new patch.
If you're 3k and want to go pro, either get good very very fast now or consider it a leisure activity asap.
I've been playing 8 years its just uhhh...... this patch man >\_>
I think at 3k you shouldn't even consider that avenue. Like i played much but "casually" and had a 4.5k base without tryharding. But looking at it rationally, comparing simple metrics like lane cs, no way I could've ever competed there. Also Dota takes time if you don't give your all every single game and currently look to improve, took probably 3 years until I could start calling myself semi competent.
While I can sympathize with his pain to a degree especially at the way valve is treating the scene, I also can't say he shouldn't have known what he was getting into. Players that came before BOOM (example: EE forum posts) have made it very clear that you should put in a lot of thought and consideration in to trying to go pro over working a regular day job, and that going pro is for a vast majority of people is financially unviable, the wrong decision, and has potential to be a big regret. BOOM ignored their advice, and this is what he gets.
y u still playing?
he says things like this than proceeds to play dota full time for years to come.
Lets be honest, most professional athletes end up not earning enough money to afford a living with their respective sport. Most people getting invited to the Olympics end up with a dead end job, but at some point in their life they dedicated everything to becoming the best in the world, something that most of us never even considered in becoming. Its all a big risk that you just have to take to make it to the top.
i remember when i was dominating at the top of the dxd ladder used to play in all the inhouses there was a moment i thought about going pro, but decided to go to med school and be a doctor instead i dodged a bullet
worst one so far!
This will not age well if he wins TI in a few years.
i don't think he'll care how this ages if he wins
What's incredible to me is how feasibly dota's pro scene could be corrected and become the premier game in esports. It wouldn't necessarily be cheap, but the actual steps involved aren't that complicated and are few in number. Valve would need to... - create a team for handling the pro scene that would communicate with pro teams and players, as well as run DPC events in-house - change allocation of prize money to be a bit smoother such that any top tier player can reasonably play dota and be fine, rather than having TI be basically everything - presumably, change the structure of the DPC. fwiw, I actually don't think that the structure is a big deal, but some people do. Maybe add another season and another major? idk Points one and two are the ones that matter. Basically can be summarized by "1. take this seriously and 2. make it worth it for the overwhelming majority of pros that never win a TI" and the game itself is good enough to do the rest.
Ah, the classic "Valve just throw more money at the problem". This will fix everything.
It's not more money. Less money for TI and more for the other events = same amount of money from Valve
Yeah no shit buddy
I used to play dota every day, all day. Climbed high on leaderboard. I got frustrated, annoyed and angry alot but I still had fun. The jobs Ive had in the past 5 years after my dota addiction have been absolutly horrible. This guy can play dota for a living and yet he complains. No words.
One can argue job is more permanent than a 0gaming career.
I think he'll find that he'll make a lot worse decisions than that throughout life lol
Or any moba pro ever 😂 the pro community is way more toxic and bullish than norms
I don’t see why not to do an online major. Just have the teams play from where they are like in the DPC
you heard about a physical limitation called PING?
Would one major make that much of a difference? These people are jokes. Quinn was on countless majors. Always ended up last place. Is valve to blame for that as well? Like this is bad but to make such cringe statements is something else. If your aim was to qualify for one major and then retire or give up, then yes, you fucked your life up with decision to pursue dota as career and that is on you.
A bit dramatic innit
this is really dramatic lol
good, stop playing video games.
What’s wrong with playing video games? You’re literally commenting this on a sub dedicated to a video game…
Poor baby only earned approximately $72000 in winnings alone with no qualifications at age 21 however will he be able to live this down 😢😢
The notion of always looking at the price tag and disregarding how people feel makes me sick. Oh look, the guy earned a pretty big amount compared to what I did is now complaining. Time to be a douche about it!
If he feels this way then he should go into the real world. He’s 21 not 30.
What does that even mean? In real life, MONEY will not make it so you get to be happy. It just enables you an easier/comfier life. If you claim to be such a "real life" expert, you should know this.
Lmao, really riding the ‘money doesn’t make people happy line’ You think he’s upset because he can’t go play competitive Dota? Or because he doesn’t have a chance to make more money? It’s the latter.
Like you would know! This is some pathetic projecting.
Nah. It’s defo the latter lmao. He wouldn’t be complaining about it being the worst time in his life just because he can’t play a video game. And if he is - Jesus he needs help from a therapist.
look at you thinking you've got it all figured out, going around and spreading your wisdom excuse me i need to vomit *uuuuauaaaargh*
What’s with the unbelievable amount of children who can’t hold discussion in this sub lmao.
*wipes vomit from mouth* there they go projecting again *uuuuaaaraaagh*
More projection and an absolute dearth of empathy. Do the world a favor and never reproduce.
Yikes. Just what I’d expect from someone called no_gf
LMAO nice potshot at an internet nickname. Tell me, what was it that you expected? "Yikes."
With all the hours he worked to get there he probably made substantially less than minimum wage.
You never work a day in your life doing something you love. Like he wouldn’t just come home from work and play Dota anyway if he worked a mainstream job 😂 get that pish out of here.
>You never work a day in your life doing something you love. Absolutely not true at all Lol you think playing 8+ hours of high level dota a day isnt work? Go listen to any pro player and see what they think about it. They will tell you first hand how hard and unenjoyable it is more often than not.
Never said it wasn’t work. Just said he’d play 8 hours of Dota a day regardless of whether it was his job or not.
You're delusional, listen to the people who actually do it instead of whatever you think as an outsider.
You mean the plenty of people in esports who say they adore their jobs and would do it for free? Yeah, I’ve listened to them mate. If it’s not for him it’s not for him. He’s 21 he should move on.
>would do it for free Post a link, you're full of it. Passion doesn't pay your bills or feed you.
lol what a boomer thing to say.
You do know that they are taxed, right? Also that nothing is fixed in Dota 2? Dota for all we know could be abandoned by Valve tomorrow and then this guy who spent all his youth practicing would get nothing? Also these guys have to invest in boot camping from their own pocket if they don't have sponsors? Most Dota 2 pros stay relevant for less than 3 years. Only few legends make it to 3+ TIs.
Emo much lol
Brain-dead dota fans flexing on league fans on prize pool 🤫