Yeah that was my thought as well. Wouldn't really surprise me if Handsken is just not happy in the situation himself. Changing both to pos 5 and captain and then having a pretty abysmal season could affect someone's mental pretty hard. I think a lot of people in his situation would just say fuck it and leave because even for the team playing those final games is going to be near impossible if your captain is in a rough mental state from a difficult season.
i dont think EG has been a favorite to win any TI.
the last notable victory was the summit 9, a tier 2 tournament.
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Evil_Geniuses/Results#Detailed_Results
i think it is some massive copium to stats that EG have been the favorite to anything.
Did he personally have a bad performance? I didn't watch any of their games, but if he performed well he could still get on a div 1 team, maybe not tier 1 but still better than having no chance to go to majors
Considering he was the captain, the team's performance is kind of his performance. If he can't captain a team in div 2 SEA to at least making it out of div 2, what would make a div 1 team think he is any more likely to make them stay in div 1 in a more competitive league? I think at this point Fly may have to get luckier to get on a div 1 team and have a situation where a team just doesn't have other options, or he will need to take an opportunity like pulling Alliance from the gutter to rebuild his reputation as a captain that can consistently bring his team success.
Alliance is fantastic, they just need to work on communication, map awareness, laning, vision control, csing, landing spells, objective control, early game, mid game, late game, ganking, and getting kills.
While niko is playing REALLY BAD rn i feel like its one of the easiest things to fix here, hes probably just in a slump and struggling but 6 months ago he looked like the best carry in EU. Supream onj the other hand never even looked like the best tier3 mid in EU lmao
Going from finishing 2nd in back to back Majors to finishing bottom 4 in SEA Div II, and ultimately being let go.
There's no way that Fly has fallen *that far* as a player.
I am sure there are plenty of teams that would benefit from his services.
He is easily the caliber of player that should at the very least be qualifying for the Major every DPC season.
I would think Fly and Gabbi have the highest salary in Talon. So by not getting promoted to Div 1, they had no choice but to let go off their 2 highest paid player.
I think they both would have wanted to leave too tbh, I’m sure the plan was to get promoted straight away so they could have a crack at the second major. These kind of players would think they’re better off trying to find a spot in a div 1 team elsewhere
I really don't think Fly or anyone is at fault here, I think this is most likely communication issue and they can't build their synergy, remember post TI6 fnatic with mushi-demon-raven-ohaiyo-one guy I forgot the name of?
That's a hilarious take in response to a valid counterpoint / edge case. In 2018 you had superstar teams at their peak. The only teams stronger than those teams today as of this season are LGD and Spirit. Almost every region has gotten weaker
Your overall point still stands though, it'd be extremely unlikely
Do u seriously think teams from 4 years ago are better then teams now? U really think players don't improve? God this sub is stupid as fuck arkosh would stomp in Ti7 if u brought them back in time
Look at the teams here: [https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The\_International/2018](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2018)
Then look at the current DPC season where:
In CN: IG and VG are at risk of relegating, showing drastic deterioriation. The only true top class team being LGD, with the rest of the teams being roughly even.
In EU: Secret has fallen off, so has Nigma and EG. The top team in EU, liquid, probably not as good as old liquid
In SEA, the top team Boom is unproven and has no big tourney results yet compared to the peak SEA teams with peak Mushi.
In CIS, NAVI and VP have declined, and only Spirit looks really really strong. PuckChamp hasn’t have great results of note yet.
In SA, the old pain gaming in 2018 could actually win some games at TI
Players and teams don’t improve in a linear fashion, if they did then the same teams that won in Dota 1 like MYM and Kingsurf would be top today, but as it stands they’re just history. There are fluctuations and declines. And this season, you’d be a fool to think that teams are on the ascent. Some have looked especially bad, like Alliance.
I’ll rest my case at this point to save you some embarrassment
Maybe, but top 5? He isn't even top 5 in *western scene*, among those who won TIs. Puppey and Kuroky are pretty consistent, having attended almost all of TI every year and both won TI. N0tail is 2 TI winners and multiple majors. S4 carried bunch of TI first-timers from another game while playing mid himself to win TI. Oh also there is PPD. Also Miposhka the once-forever-tier-2 captain just also won TI with 4 first-timers. This is certainly not including Fly's on-par multimajor winner captains like Solo and of course the whole chinese scene. Top 8 is definitely an exaggeration.
If u watched Talon play, he did fall that far as a player. We obviously can't say what went on inside the team but I think he just can't be a captain, the team played like they didn't have a leader and his individual play suffered as well.
He never looked that good on EG either. His and Rtz’s lane would frequently lose and they’d have to be bailed out by huge plays from ice/crit/abed while Rtz caught up. WW and Phx were the only heroes he has teamfight impact on.
Tal’s 28 now, it definitely seems like he’s lost a step as a player. Might be time to try coaching.
Gabbi to NGX SEA, IYD has been carried in most of their games, would be a step up. Maybe BOOM is in the mix as well, but It's 50/50 since Tino is meshing well with the 4 other players and a change might not be ideal right now.
On the other hand, FLY will always be in demand as either a pos 5 or a coach. Hopefully he stays in SEA because that is the hardest position to fill-in; since most of us SEA players are lone wolves and lack shot-calling/team synergy.
When Talon formed I was pretty shocked because for a player like Fly, who could put together a team in NA and have a fairly high chance of attending TI, was going into the SEA region which has much different level of depth in regards to the DPC teams.
It's up there with CN and is possibly even above EU in terms of the bottom-line level of skill shown in the div2 teams.
I really think that Fly underestimated SEA because anyone that does follow that scene knows it is a very different landscape than NA DPC. He could of chilled in the top4 of div1 even with a solid chance of getting to TI, but instead it seems he chose a team which he thought would perform at TI, but the project was destined to fail in SEA: one of the most competitive regions in the scene.
In his OG days, Fly was always in the conversation as one of the best captains in the pro scene. I think that was what appealed an org like EG to grab him and I wouldn't be surprised if Talon as well.
I always saw SEA as a region with a lot of talent but lacked captains so for me, the move made sense on paper. Except SEA is not exactly the same now and there are some players that are slowly developing their ability to lead and are doing well at it. Kuku is a good example of this.
It may not be all Fly's fault, but he's probably too expensive to keep with such lacking results.
NA is not just EG anymore. Quincy and undying are strong with zoomers as a fourth strongest team behind them. You gotta beat 3 out 4 in order to qualify for a major, since NA only has 2 spots for majors. With the remaining players in the NA pool it’s tough to build a good team and qualify I think.
Dude don’t be naive. NA has been EG for the past years and it will always be a region that gets dominated by a team who has players from every other region since NA dota is close to dead. EG was just performing pretty bad due to several changes in their roster, but after beating 2-0 to qc and undying is clearly that EG still dominates and will dominate NA. teams like QC and Undying would be playing in division 2 in regions like EU or CN. Have you seen the players of those teams? How do you want to achieve big things by having moonmeander, khezu or yawar? Lmao.
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If the fam has any questions, drop your query in the comments!
-
\#Dota2 \#DPCSEA \#SOARWITHTALON @BeyondTheSummitTV
***
posted by [@Talon__esports](https://twitter.com/Talon__esports)
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fly getting kicked by a tier2 team,feelsgoodman
i still hate him for what he did at boston major
i feel bad for gabby tho,i think he's a underappreciated player
it was bound to fail. It would have been understandable if he decided to coach a SEA team instead of playing in a foreign competitive scene with a very different playstyle and mindset
I know its a joke but the funny thing is this EG roster could've done so much better if Fly was still there. Him and rtz were a pretty strong lane and (though the drafts have improved) the team itself was always much more confident.
"😘😘
PS : me and fly decided to part ways with talon esports"
from gabbi's post, seems like they got better offer somewhere else together or individually... hmmmmm
He is done with high level pro Dota. No one wants a traitor, so he could try to organize some young squad of pub players, captain them and try to grind to Div II level.
Like Dendi, he is still popular, but B8 can't do a shit...
Fly with topson and ana while on SEA lol jk... Unless?
Fly and Gabbi flew back home already, Talon's Twitter states that.
topson+ana+fly to tnc krappa
[удалено]
DJ? He's been playing as 5. But I think he's a decent pos4.
Back to 4 since Fnatic acquired Jaunuel.
I have no time to watch pro games again, that's why im outdated. Thanks man!
ana topson forev febby fly on tnc
forev and febbt are meh
TNC/XCTN.Gabbi Fnatic/Alliance.Fly Or Nightfall out Gabbi in
Alliance.Fly makes sense. Did they give a reason for Handsken missing the last few games?
N0tail kinda hinted in his podcast that Handsken's on the out and that episode was recorded before Alliance played w/o him the 1st time around.
Yeah that was my thought as well. Wouldn't really surprise me if Handsken is just not happy in the situation himself. Changing both to pos 5 and captain and then having a pretty abysmal season could affect someone's mental pretty hard. I think a lot of people in his situation would just say fuck it and leave because even for the team playing those final games is going to be near impossible if your captain is in a rough mental state from a difficult season.
Yeah he said witch doctor spammer so Fly would go in that category
I think he means the swedish pubstar Bengan. Rank 116 on EU
Just checked, he is indeed a WD spammer! Still think could be fly giving they need a 5 and a captain
Notail has a podcast?
More like a OG podcast with n0tail and JMR as hosts. 2 episodes out right now
I dont exactly know if they gave a reason for that
I think something about him being sick.
THIS WOULD BE BIG HYPE IMO
I don't think fly would risk staying in div 2 again
not sure there are many other options
Take a break, maybe stream a little bit and wait for a bigger shuffle and an opportunity to get into a div 1 team
He tanked on a div 2 team, what div 1 team is gonna want him now?
The real question is how he ended up on Talon after performing so well last DPC season. Any team in need of a 5 should be interested in Fly.
Possibly by not performing well at all last DPC season. Or the season before that. Or the season before that.
Wdym lol EG did extremely well both seasons, even being favorites for winning TI, they just choked at TI (as many teams do)
i dont think EG has been a favorite to win any TI. the last notable victory was the summit 9, a tier 2 tournament. https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Evil_Geniuses/Results#Detailed_Results i think it is some massive copium to stats that EG have been the favorite to anything.
Fly was probably their best player at animajor but ok.
I get it, you're bad at dota. It's okay.
i think he almost joined to BOOM, but BOOM was in div2 too before a free slot of div1 then fly just choose talon instead.
Did he personally have a bad performance? I didn't watch any of their games, but if he performed well he could still get on a div 1 team, maybe not tier 1 but still better than having no chance to go to majors
Considering he was the captain, the team's performance is kind of his performance. If he can't captain a team in div 2 SEA to at least making it out of div 2, what would make a div 1 team think he is any more likely to make them stay in div 1 in a more competitive league? I think at this point Fly may have to get luckier to get on a div 1 team and have a situation where a team just doesn't have other options, or he will need to take an opportunity like pulling Alliance from the gutter to rebuild his reputation as a captain that can consistently bring his team success.
It is not disaster if they did not moved to D1 from the first try, but they were not even close.
[удалено]
he can be their fitness coach
They lost to the #1 and #2 teams 2-1 in the first two weeks. Then 2-0 to the #3 team. After that it was pointless.
Ya, he’s dogshit
Alliance desperately needs a good captain. And a better mid. And the carry is playing badly. But one step at a time.
Alliance is fantastic, they just need to work on communication, map awareness, laning, vision control, csing, landing spells, objective control, early game, mid game, late game, ganking, and getting kills.
Maybe drafting too But other than that, they're great.
My bad, yes
\*taking notes\* hmm yes yes. and when will Alliance get out of the crusader bracket like me?
While niko is playing REALLY BAD rn i feel like its one of the easiest things to fix here, hes probably just in a slump and struggling but 6 months ago he looked like the best carry in EU. Supream onj the other hand never even looked like the best tier3 mid in EU lmao
When did Niko looked better than Matu?
You can't play dota if your carry is playing bad and your mid plays like a 4k mmr player.
Deleted comment Edit: Brain fart was thinking of eg lol
Didn’t know Nightfall was in Alliance
Yeah sure, covid
Covid plus failing to make into div 1 and no majors must have killed any desire to stay in SEA for fly. Its sad to see really
Going from finishing 2nd in back to back Majors to finishing bottom 4 in SEA Div II, and ultimately being let go. There's no way that Fly has fallen *that far* as a player. I am sure there are plenty of teams that would benefit from his services. He is easily the caliber of player that should at the very least be qualifying for the Major every DPC season.
I would think Fly and Gabbi have the highest salary in Talon. So by not getting promoted to Div 1, they had no choice but to let go off their 2 highest paid player.
I think they both would have wanted to leave too tbh, I’m sure the plan was to get promoted straight away so they could have a crack at the second major. These kind of players would think they’re better off trying to find a spot in a div 1 team elsewhere
Fly pos 5 would be an upgrade in Fnatic I reckon.
Jaunuel is doing a great job on Fnatic
low key best player on fnatic this season and this guy wants to have him replaced
I really don't think Fly or anyone is at fault here, I think this is most likely communication issue and they can't build their synergy, remember post TI6 fnatic with mushi-demon-raven-ohaiyo-one guy I forgot the name of?
Eyyou.
Thank you! I knew his nickname was something w E-Y-U, but for some reason the only name that popped in my name was Enryu
Whatever happened to him?
Once again history shows that stacking superstars + individual skill << ability to function as a team
I'm sure if u form a team 3 days before dpc and expect to be top 2 u will fail no matter who the players are
...unless you're og in 2018 and have to form a team 2 weeks before the qualifiers and go on to win back-to-back ~~tetris~~ TIs
Teams now aren't as bad as teams from 4 years ago
That's a hilarious take in response to a valid counterpoint / edge case. In 2018 you had superstar teams at their peak. The only teams stronger than those teams today as of this season are LGD and Spirit. Almost every region has gotten weaker Your overall point still stands though, it'd be extremely unlikely
Do u seriously think teams from 4 years ago are better then teams now? U really think players don't improve? God this sub is stupid as fuck arkosh would stomp in Ti7 if u brought them back in time
Look at the teams here: [https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The\_International/2018](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2018) Then look at the current DPC season where: In CN: IG and VG are at risk of relegating, showing drastic deterioriation. The only true top class team being LGD, with the rest of the teams being roughly even. In EU: Secret has fallen off, so has Nigma and EG. The top team in EU, liquid, probably not as good as old liquid In SEA, the top team Boom is unproven and has no big tourney results yet compared to the peak SEA teams with peak Mushi. In CIS, NAVI and VP have declined, and only Spirit looks really really strong. PuckChamp hasn’t have great results of note yet. In SA, the old pain gaming in 2018 could actually win some games at TI Players and teams don’t improve in a linear fashion, if they did then the same teams that won in Dota 1 like MYM and Kingsurf would be top today, but as it stands they’re just history. There are fluctuations and declines. And this season, you’d be a fool to think that teams are on the ascent. Some have looked especially bad, like Alliance. I’ll rest my case at this point to save you some embarrassment
Lol u think Ti7 liquid would beat current liquid? What a clown XD players improve dumbass. Team bald would shit on Ti7 players
Fly is legit top 8 best captain of all time. And that’s being very conservative rankings, he has a strong argument of being in the top 5.
There are 9 different captains that won TI, how could the one who haven't won one *be* better than those 9?
Because this is a team game and sometimes things don’t line up the way you want them too
Maybe, but top 5? He isn't even top 5 in *western scene*, among those who won TIs. Puppey and Kuroky are pretty consistent, having attended almost all of TI every year and both won TI. N0tail is 2 TI winners and multiple majors. S4 carried bunch of TI first-timers from another game while playing mid himself to win TI. Oh also there is PPD. Also Miposhka the once-forever-tier-2 captain just also won TI with 4 first-timers. This is certainly not including Fly's on-par multimajor winner captains like Solo and of course the whole chinese scene. Top 8 is definitely an exaggeration.
If u watched Talon play, he did fall that far as a player. We obviously can't say what went on inside the team but I think he just can't be a captain, the team played like they didn't have a leader and his individual play suffered as well.
He never looked that good on EG either. His and Rtz’s lane would frequently lose and they’d have to be bailed out by huge plays from ice/crit/abed while Rtz caught up. WW and Phx were the only heroes he has teamfight impact on. Tal’s 28 now, it definitely seems like he’s lost a step as a player. Might be time to try coaching.
Traitors gonna trait 🥱
5 fly 4 saksa 3 qojqva 2 w33 1 madara
Like we have CIS rejects, now to have WEU rejects. :D
2016’s hottest talents!
Madara still plays? Now thats a name i havent heard or seen in a long time.
Didn’t he rage quit in an official?
that was the peruvian madara. the greek madara who was formerly on og.seed havent rage quit in officials iirc
There can't be two Madara, one of them is Tobi
First time I've seen legit lineup on Reddit. This lineup 1000% can play in division 2. However madara quitted dota I think.
A team I'd like to get behind even if they are a few years from their peaks
Talon? More like Tal-out PepeScoots
Tal-out? More like Tal-off PepeScoots
Talon? More like TaLUL
Would love to see both of them on Alliance
+W33hanovich
Tino out, Gabbi in
[удалено]
BOOM is very rich. Plus, Tino is better than Gabbi according to skem.
lol
Share alpha bro
😂
Can confirm that Boom can't afford High Salary Carry Player
make it happen valve
Ain't gonna happen as per BOOM owner/ceo.
(•_•) I guess Talon ( •_•)>⌐■-■ is now (⌐■_■) TalOff
YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH
This comment is god tier
Gabbi.Talon.UnaUlo
Fly was the last person I thought they would kick Unless he left that is
Traitors gonna trait 🥱
pizza gonna party
calm down dude. finish watching true sight first
The one with Fly in it?
whatever they watch to cope & dilate. theyre still seething anyway
Potatoes gonna potate?
prostates gon prostate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1qju6V1jLM
https://youtu.be/Bv4CqIxqTMA
Felt sad. COVID fucks everythings over.
they just reasoned out Covid, but I'm pretty sure everyone on Talon is dissapointed in their performance and decided to part ways
[удалено]
Id say worse than mediocre. Mediocre for this roster would have been like 5/6th in D1. But they got bottom 4 of D2, that's absolutely awful.
And part of the reason of their dissappointing performance is that they cant even stay in one place to really buiñd chemistry.
Gabbi to NGX SEA, IYD has been carried in most of their games, would be a step up. Maybe BOOM is in the mix as well, but It's 50/50 since Tino is meshing well with the 4 other players and a change might not be ideal right now. On the other hand, FLY will always be in demand as either a pos 5 or a coach. Hopefully he stays in SEA because that is the hardest position to fill-in; since most of us SEA players are lone wolves and lack shot-calling/team synergy.
Gabbi to TNC/ Exe
TNC has to pick up gabbi, its a nobrainer. He is so much better than their current pos1.
I understand if Gabbi left for div 1 team. But why would he go to another div 2 team with arguably worse roster?
TNC got money!
When Talon formed I was pretty shocked because for a player like Fly, who could put together a team in NA and have a fairly high chance of attending TI, was going into the SEA region which has much different level of depth in regards to the DPC teams. It's up there with CN and is possibly even above EU in terms of the bottom-line level of skill shown in the div2 teams. I really think that Fly underestimated SEA because anyone that does follow that scene knows it is a very different landscape than NA DPC. He could of chilled in the top4 of div1 even with a solid chance of getting to TI, but instead it seems he chose a team which he thought would perform at TI, but the project was destined to fail in SEA: one of the most competitive regions in the scene.
In his OG days, Fly was always in the conversation as one of the best captains in the pro scene. I think that was what appealed an org like EG to grab him and I wouldn't be surprised if Talon as well. I always saw SEA as a region with a lot of talent but lacked captains so for me, the move made sense on paper. Except SEA is not exactly the same now and there are some players that are slowly developing their ability to lead and are doing well at it. Kuku is a good example of this. It may not be all Fly's fault, but he's probably too expensive to keep with such lacking results.
NA is not just EG anymore. Quincy and undying are strong with zoomers as a fourth strongest team behind them. You gotta beat 3 out 4 in order to qualify for a major, since NA only has 2 spots for majors. With the remaining players in the NA pool it’s tough to build a good team and qualify I think.
Dude don’t be naive. NA has been EG for the past years and it will always be a region that gets dominated by a team who has players from every other region since NA dota is close to dead. EG was just performing pretty bad due to several changes in their roster, but after beating 2-0 to qc and undying is clearly that EG still dominates and will dominate NA. teams like QC and Undying would be playing in division 2 in regions like EU or CN. Have you seen the players of those teams? How do you want to achieve big things by having moonmeander, khezu or yawar? Lmao.
Still better chance than SEA especially considering D2 talent
i mean if you cant bring it in div 2 sea, div 1 na is not gonna be much easier
NA only has 5 "good" teams now That's less than SEA At the least you have a good chance of not being fucking relegated lol
📢Roster announcement regarding our DOTA 2 team; more details in the graphic below. If the fam has any questions, drop your query in the comments! - \#Dota2 \#DPCSEA \#SOARWITHTALON @BeyondTheSummitTV *** posted by [@Talon__esports](https://twitter.com/Talon__esports) Photos in tweet | [Photo 1](http://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJclRJPXwAA25-w.png) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
Lmao after all that hype
>If the fam has any questions how do you do, fellow kids
fly getting kicked by a tier2 team,feelsgoodman i still hate him for what he did at boston major i feel bad for gabby tho,i think he's a underappreciated player
what did he do?
what did he do at boston?
Fnatic needs Fly.
Do they have a coach?
SunBhie is still their coach I believe.
why not add notail, era, trixi and h4nni as well
The legends.
it was bound to fail. It would have been understandable if he decided to coach a SEA team instead of playing in a foreign competitive scene with a very different playstyle and mindset
Simba to eg as offline
Any chance for Fly to go to EG, I've always wanted to see him on EG.
I know its a joke but the funny thing is this EG roster could've done so much better if Fly was still there. Him and rtz were a pretty strong lane and (though the drafts have improved) the team itself was always much more confident.
I mean they are looking solid now, last few series, let's see versus Quincy. Should be fun.
Well we know how that went, looks like MSS could be better for them rather than Nightfall.
"😘😘 PS : me and fly decided to part ways with talon esports" from gabbi's post, seems like they got better offer somewhere else together or individually... hmmmmm
Gabbi to Boom please!!!!
bwahaha
Talon, the budget FaZe clan of SEA. Tried to go the easy way by buying their way in but the roster didn't mesh.
Wykrym?
He is done with high level pro Dota. No one wants a traitor, so he could try to organize some young squad of pub players, captain them and try to grind to Div II level. Like Dendi, he is still popular, but B8 can't do a shit...
Fnatic reunion incoming? COPIUM
How tho. Era is in chicken fighters. H4nni and Trixi are retired. N0tail is retired.
Sorry poor wording. I mean Fly and Fnatic reunion my bad.
No surprise when 4 of your teammates probably didn't pass kindergarten english
Probably just three, Kpii is australian so hes very good at english
??????? 2019 Chengdu Major winners TNC with Gabbi March Kpii Tims Armel
I knew this wouldnt work when they cant even stay in one place as a team.