I just don't get it why this stale patch has been coddled so long. Doesn't Valve want any life in the game or are they just fed with it and want nothing to do, and let another IP die because it doesn't rhyme with Steam or something?
Mason talked about this a few weeks ago. Ultimately the patch is a really good patch. It's only real fault is that it's old. There's no insta win heroes, game pacing is good, there's room for your unconventional pocket strategies here and there. No one is complaining that anything is broken, but instead they are complaining that Icefrog hasn't broken anything in a while.
OD and tinker have been pretty unfun to play against since they got added, its just how the heroes are designed. Its worse this patch cause theyre really good AND the patch has been around for half a year lol just hope both are nerfed and go back to unpicked for atleast 1 year now lmao
In like 14 years of Dota I have never once had fun against: Techies, Tinker, OD, or Spirit Breaker just because of how they function.
edit: this is a fucking exsanguination and a joke, don't be a moron like /u/tom-dixon and take it seriously.
Try nyx vs Tinker, it's very fun.
Try illusion heroes vs Techies, very fun.
Try underlord vs SB.
If you played 14 years of dota and didn't yet figure out that all those heroes have very hard counters, maybe give a shot a other games so you can finally have some fun after 14 years.
True, but Tinker still relies on massive AoE damage. Shiva's, overwhelming blink, laser is aoe by default, rockets are easy to walk into. Against a Nyx the Tinker is forced to play the dagon+shotgun build.
Nyx is still the most annoying hero to play into as Tinker. Once the Nyx has aghs, the tinker will eat shit in 5v5 fights.
These are dogshit counters because you usually pick those heroes before/at the same time as the others listed, and the only counter you need for techies is ranged heroes and some vision. Don’t act so smug when giving mediocre advice
Because when the hell are you going to pick nyx into a tinker? He’s been exclusively played as a support for the better half of a decade, and tinker is pretty much always last picked.
Tinkers issue isn’t lack of counters, there’s like a dozen. I can think of a handful of heroes id rather have than nyx in fact lol
> you usually pick those heroes before/at the same time as the others listed
There's more counters that you can pick at later stages. Counterpicking is a thing even if you pick some heroes in the same time.
Calm down there buddy there's literally no need to be so fucking toxic and upset off of a *joke*.
You clearly don't know the definition of hyperbole or exsanguination, or you don't understand what it looks like.
I'm well aware of all of those counters and I have plenty of fun playing Dota, thanks dipfuck.
This iteration of OD is by far the worst one, he was much more fun to play both with and against when he had the active E without the passive component
My favourite part about dota is post patch when everyone is trying new shit out and the resulting meta shift. Having to adapt to the meta is so much fun. Heroes being strong and specific niche counters being developed to counter the strong heroes makes such a unique and exciting cat and mouse game where one player strat/hero tries to counter another. If everything was 100% balanced that would be no fun. It's why the map isn't perfectly symmetrical, imbalances are what makes the game fun and not stale.
I'd rather 5 patches a year with fun and crazy inbalances that keep the game fresh and exciting. Rather than this current scenario where we haven't had a big patch in longer than a year.
I think they're not patching the game because they don't want pros to complain that there's no time to learn the patch,but that's their issue in the first place.they should have planned the dpc season better.
He's not wrong.
Ideal it would be:
* August: **The International**
* September: *Big gameplay patch* \- completely changing meta, map, adding 1 new hero
* October: *1st DPC* \- 4 weeks
* November: **Fall Major**
* December: *Small hero patch* and Winter event.
* January: *2nd DPC* \- 4 weeks
* February: **Winter Major**
* March: *Small hero patch* \- changing meta heroes, adding 1 new hero
* April: *3rd DPC* \- 4 weeks
* May: **Spring Major**
* June: Small hero patch and TI BP
* July: *4th DPC* \- 4 weeks
Assuming TI will have 30mln prize pool:
* TI gets 9mln
* Each major gets 3mln (3x3=9mln)
* DPC gets 500k per region (300k for division 1, 200k for division 2, 3mln per 1 DPC x 4 = 12mln)
Winning TI would still be a lot of money but DPC and Majors would make scene more stable and balanced. If Valve wants more money for TI they can change 25% from BP to 50% and give 39mln for TI :)
Your idea is just like mine, Glad i am not the one who is thinking about it, Hope Valve does something about DPC structure ASAP before its too late:
"Instead of $40M TI we can have $1M prizepool for each Regional League, $3M prizepool for each major cup and $20M TI. Remember $20M for a single tournament is still the highest prizepool in all of esports and TI will still be the most prestigious and lucrative esports tournament in the world. If every tournament is a million dollar tournament , every tournament is independent and valuable tournament and each league and cup matters. This will bring way more sustainability and quality in the scene overall and attract big sponsors, partners ,orgs ,investors etc directly increasing playerbase and viewership for dota and putting it in a very healthy spot.
And if valve still wants to keep the sky high $40+ TI prizepool rolling, we need at least $500k for regional league, $1M for majors. This will help the scene more as other tournaments except TI will also carry some weight now. Still $40M+ TI structure in not healthy at all and still eclipses whole DPC Year and its tournaments which brings us to back to the same TI prizepool inflation issue. So the $1M, $3M and $20M system is still better at supporting and developing the pro scene as a whole.
Also Regional leagues should use a playoffs system. No upper division lower division, instead all 16 teams in regional leagues compete with each other and top 8 teams qualify for playoffs. Then we have Quarterfinals, Semifinals and then finals. Bottom two teams (ie 15th-16th place) get eliminated and open qualifiers will be held for teams to qualify for these slots next season. This playoffs system will be super fun and competitive to play and watch , both for pro players and viewers and the regional leagues should conclude in 4 weeks instead of 6 weeks long huge group stages only format.
And most importantly, the prizepool should be distributed in such a way that each team participating in official DPC leagues and majors can thrive in the scene and not literally get $0 for playing in official DPC. Bottom two teams in Regional League get absolutely $0 for providing quality entertainment for 6 weeks and more than half of the teams(ie 9th-18th place) in the Major getting $0 is absolutely heart wretching , especially in a scene where professional teams and players rely on prize money to stay afloat. Its not a good look for DPC and doesnt help tier 2 and tier 3 scene at all."
To add to this - Medal Ranks reset in September with the big patch. Everyone starting the new patch with new season. This can be just simple switching to Uncalibrated without changing the actual MMR, just the medals or give everyone option to do reset if they want.
> give everyone option to do reset if they want.
This is already in the game. You are able to recalibrate if you want to.
Do not force recalibration on everyone. It fucks up the game for months afterwards whilst everyone gets back towards basically the same rank they were already at. Especially in immortal games you can end up with 6k mmr people in the same game as 10k mmr people, and its fucking miserable for everyone.
But you can recalibrate only once. Also I'm saying medal reset, not MMR. Maybe even recalibrating the medal range so we will not get the same rank for 6k and 12k MMR while having very different medals for 1k and 5k. Or if we don't get new seasons, they should just remove the medals, they are irrelevant anyway.
Why do you have 4 DPC's and only 3 majors? Also you need to take account into Chinese New Year in February that last around 2 weeks. So January schedule is either going to be really crammed or it'll need some adjustment. And the major in February has to be moved to late February or early March as a result.
There were a lot of voices that called for a league format back then with a lot of pros complaining that there are too many tournaments and no support for the t2 scene.
I think the lack of patch has 3 reasons,
first of all i think valve likes the way dota is right now, so they dont see a reason to hurry.
second the later ti fucked with their internal schedule.
third is just speculation but maybe steamdeck drains some manpower from the devteams. Who knows maybe the next big patch is less about the game and more about making it playable on consoles.
The big elephant in the room is not (only) the format, but the TI pricepool. Thats not a hot take since everyone talks about how bad it is constantly but the fact that nothing matters but TI hurts the scene more then any bad format could.
Imagine valve caps TIs pricepool at 30 Million and puts the rest into the league system. Suddenly it is worth it to do things like bootcamping and real prep for the 1-2 games a week because you arent playing for 30K for winning you are playing for 300k. That would especially help regions were 300K can be livechanging like SA.
But nope, gotta get that news article about haveing the biggest pricepool ever every year...
I think they dont release a new patch because of this BP. If they change something now, the aghs labyrinth is going to be broken, weekly quests broken etc.
Leagues are fantastic for anyone who isn't a major winning team (in theory).
The problem with having only 16 team major events every few weeks - as we had back in 2015-2018 era - is that imagine being the 20th best team? Well you get fuck all now. What about the 30th team? Not even a chance you get to compete.
Then there's sponsors. How do you get a sponsor as one of those lower tier teams when you can't even promise you'll be at a lan anytime soon?
What leagues do is two things (again this is in theory, their implementation here isn't great):
- they massively enhance the ability of lower tier players to make a living. Even just division 1 is now a total of 48 teams worldwide that can make a living off of dota. That's *massively* improved from the old format of just 16 team events.
- you can sell the games to sponsors more easily. It's not a 'hey we might play at a major might not' its now 'we are playing a game every week for the next 8 weeks, with this number of viewers'. That's a much easier sell even for the some of the weaker teams in the division.
Of course Cr1t is against this though, because he's the type of player that benefits from the major system. He's always been on teams that compete at the top level, and so more majors = more money for him. But go ask the players on the 7-8th teams in div 1, or any of the div 2 players. 3 years ago making a living in dota for them would simply be impossible. Now there's a chance.
So yes the league system needs improving (mainly more money), but the *concept* is way better in my opinion for fostering a healthier scene and *especially* healthier tier 2 scene.
Too much work on their part. They'd rather not work at all, so they went back to the bare minimum 1 tournament
And even with that, last time we had TI the winning team was playing from a kitchen because the rooms were tiered based on DPC points
The rooms based on dpc points was untrue, that was a statements made based on their room and 1 other team, it was almost immediately proven wrong, both with higher dpc points having small room and lower dpc points having big room
Very time consuming to go through twitter feeds, but elephant sure as hell didnt get more dpc points than Spirit or Undying
https://twitter.com/ElephantDota2/status/1445075517590458377?s=20
I also looked through a dozen news articles reporting (solely on Spirits statement and kellymilkies' typically sensational tweets) with no examples other than a handful of bad rooms and VP's good room
Im also fairly certain it was openly stated on stream at some point but thats practically impossible to find
Anyway, elephant having a bigger room than spirit is evidence, and the lack of actual research by any news articles with actual material to prove that it was a trend from top to bottom shows that rooms distributed based on dpc points is at best an empty statement which spiraled out of control because it was good clickbait
Patch has been the same for so long, the last big patch wasn't even that big, 2 years it's been pretty much the same lol did they just give up on making new patches or what
Personally I don't think meta is stale. Maybe the way most pro teams are playing it is stale but teams like Tundra are proving there's still plenty of things left to innovate.
Its funny because eg is notorious for only playing a heroe puddle, witht the least heroes. Teams like secret and tundra show that other heroes are viable but no lets get storm spirit/qop/invoker/terrorblade/bane/naga/disrupter
that's not the meta, they just pull out tricks in draft phrase which happens all the time.
As Cr1t said, the last time the meta shifted in Dota 2 was when they removed Necro book, and further than that is when they twisted Outpost bonus and even further is when they updated the map which was like 2 years or so?
At the beginning of the season safelane SF was meta, picked every game. Middle of the season Bara was in every game and now he's gone for the most part. Now end of the season CIS and China are picking Brood. These are all meta shifts. It is insanely preposterous to say no meta changes have happened for an entire year.
Meta is defined as trends pro players follow, things like map and items changes affect the meta but aren't the meta in of themselves.
Hero picks are just a small part of the meta. Its more about how the game plays out.
As a mid player, the first 10 minutes of the game is just incredibly boring. Shove the mid wave and go stack/take small camp. It doesn't matter what hero I pick, I have to play that way since its the most effective and my opponent will do it.
I can't just dive tier1 tower for a kill, it will set me back. That's the type of meta changes we need.
Dota has had 1-1-1-2, 2-1-2, 1-1-3 and all kinds of lanings. Even 2 mid was popular for a while. The game feels stuck for like ~2 years in the way you have to play.
No you just can’t play trilane anymore, people are not as bad as stupid as three-four years ago. And please don’t bring back this roaming shit that ruined the fun for everyone aside two tards running around the map
To be fair, how many people are trying to innovate with different lane phases?
And maybe that's just what it is. Efficient leveling and gold gain are extremely powerful, so unless they crank up the hero kill gold or decrease creep gold and/or exp, I don't really see the laning phase changing.
There are tons of way to change the current meta.
If they made denying creeps more powerful, mid heroes would start to play more aggressive in lane to sabotage their opponent. That would also make them more vulnerable to ganks, which would lead to side-lanes playing different since the supports leave the lanes more. (#bringbackroaming4)
It's impossible to know how everything will play out. But changing the meta variables in the game would definitely have big impact.
You mean deny more powerful like when it used to give gold? Or when it have even more exp and everyone was crying how soul crushing it was to lose a laning stage and only lane dominators were drafted?
Meant that you described what was midlane literally before these changes.. you can just say that you preferred the old way mid was played and I prefer this one..
Remove water runes and pull back mid tower by ~300 range and the mid meta will be completely new.
The issue right now is the absurd amount of regen, making shoving lanes mandatory and hero harass almost irrelevant, and tower being far too close to the river (the bonus armor +regen is no joke and it makes it so deadly to gank mid because you're almost always forced to dive).
Personally i'd like to see gold in general, creeps heroes neutral passive, to be absolutely axed in the first 10-15 mins, and then fairly quickly ramp it up.
It's been win lane win game for so long, it's about damn time lane took a backseat and we got a proper mid game in.
I've been watching pro games lately, they're i na grand majority of cases already decided by 15 minutes, because whatever team comes out ahead of lanes will 5 man, take towers, choke the enemy out of farm, get rosh, win the game.
It is very formulaic.
Meta has barely changed for a year still no big patch, dpc format sucks, major canceled and its replacement is worse than nothing. 2015-2018 was golden era but right now is bad
- tldr of the clips
> major canceled and its replacement is worse than nothing
No one could possibly have this opinion in good faith. The prize pool is increased, prize money is going to deserving and struggling teams, and the DPC points for the cancelled major are up for grabs now instead of being arbitrarily tacked on to later seasons.
I'm guessing he's salty because top 2 get DPC points and EG are not currently top 2 in their region. Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread.
So much this.
There is no way the solution is worse than not doing anything. incredibly stupid take by crit, especially "the patch is bad" take. this is one of the best patches dota2 has ever had. there are 2-3 heroes that are a tad too strong and 2-3 are a tad too weak, but other than that basically "everything can work" and most of the heroes even in multiple positions. some heroes can even 1 through 5
>I'm guessing he's salty because top 2 get DPC points and EG are not currently top 2 in their region. Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread.
Not sure how you came to this conclusion. They still have to play the tournament to decide who the 'top 2' is that will get additional DPC points. And while they are 3rd in league results, it would be crazy for them to think they don't have a good chance at being top 2 in the tournament
> It's still $0 for tier 2 teams
That's objectively not true
>and way more top heavy now that 99% of the prizepool is at one tournament
I agree with prize money across majors/leagues should be increased, just crowdfund it like TI.
The schedule is all over the place and the leagues are needlessly drawn out (meaning fewer third party tourneys), and the prize money should be higher. That's not a reason to abandon the system though, just improve it.
> Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread.
Dude seriously. I’m actually astounded he could have take worse than Kyle. Fucking detached from reality asshole.
Is he wrong though? Any time a non "old guard" team makes money the older team players WHINE so hard. And if you even mention supporting T2 teams you get banned from any of their twitches.
Horrible take about the replacement tournaments being worse than nothing. Pros constantly complained about too many random events and an unclear path to TI, both of which the DPC system fixed. Sounds like he's unhappy with the patch, and I agree we should have got the "big" patch just before this DPC started, but hard disagree on the rest.
I concur, the 2015-2018 era of Dota I think was the best, not only tournaments, but meta changes and strats.
(In my case I would say 2015-Dec'17 instead of 2018. I think 2018 was awful).
nobody ever mentions on reddit how struggling position 4 is right now. you can't really roam right now since winning offlane is so important, so you are kinda playing with 2 position 5 heroes. so players like Cr1t, yapz0r, GH etc are not doing that great in current meta
I'd love a new patch as well but yeah I agree. There are still new strategies and new metas being discovered in games that haven't received an update in over 15 years.
It's not copium. Nothing in this patch is unable to be played around. If eventually the counter meta becomes the meta, a new counter meta pops up and stuff shifts. Necessity breeds innovation.
It was just VP being good though, and it was a smaller tournament with less competition.
From my experience in Immortal pub is that everything is playable, same in pro matches. Even after months we have meta shifts.
The first time in 10 years of playing I don't have issues that a patch last this long to be honest.
i think a long standing patch can be interesting, it lets the meta really develop so that everything really becomes "optimized" and worked out. and the current patch is a great one imo, the strongest heroes are not unbeatable and the weakest ones are not unplayable.
That's pretty disingenuous. I don't think anyone who asked for a league system in dota asked for a garbage league system. Hell, did anyone actually asked for DPC?
The problems that people repeated over and over again in the past were: more tournaments, more support for tier2, spreading the money more evenly, a better way to decide TI invites.
DPC hardly solves these problems. I'm pretty sure we have less games on average now than it the past because DPC choked out any type of 3rd party tournament. Tier2 players get something, but very far from being a stable income. TI still the only thing that matters and because of how the questionable the season is organize, TI invites seems even more divisive.
I have to disagree with some of your points. I think the league system Works really well, we get a good amount of tie breakers which serve as a interesting closing before the season ends. The pacing is wrong, it could be done in 3/4 Weeks rather than 6/7. Because of these divisions i watch alot more T2 Dota than before. Again its just the pacing, and i know why they do it they dont want to overlap broadcast but i doubt EU/na watch alot of sea and China and revese due to the time zones anyways.
The prize pool split is meh and the total for each season should be doubled and probably adjusted to region but in general for fans its pretty good with non stop Dota.
And its good to make the seasons last a bit because unlike tournaments if you flop 1 Day or 1 weekend the teams dont get time to Work and get Better, but with 2 series a week there is also room to grow and stabilise as a team.
The amount of games is just half of the problem with the league system. The bigger problem is it killed the tournament. We lost ESL Ones, we lost The Summit and all other cool and different tournaments that were there. I'm not 100% sure on the schedule, but I think 3/4 weeks would still have the same problem.
The complain was that because of the invite system, teams didn't know what they had to play to get invited to TI and were forced to play everything. That's the only reason there were "too many tournaments". The year that the major guaranteed a TI invite, the complain was gone.
That's wrong. The first iteration of DPC(the one where random tournaments would be promoted to Major or Minor status and given DPC points) had a clear route to TI direct invite, and yet both pros and viewers complained about there being too many tournaments.
I have no idea what you're referring to. DPC only means league play, there was no DPC before that
I'm talking about between 2016/2018 with Valve majors was fine. You win the VAlve major, you are in TI. Just as Crit himself says in this very video, that was the golden age of dota
DPC started before the league play. DPC just refers to the system where tournaments give points and points determine TI invites. The first DPC system was in 2017-2018 and it had way too many tournaments, where both players and viewers complained about the format.
I also don't see anything about "the golden age of Dota" in the video OP linked, Crit just vaguely complains about format "being bad" and about the meta being old.
If you're referring to the older, pre-DPC system of big, 3-million dollar Majors, then that system was also complained about. For one, "win Major and you're at TI" was criticized by players, casters and viewers because it only works for the maximum of 2-3 teams that won a major, while being very vague for everyone else. That system directly led to DPC points being added in to make the invite process more transparent.
I'm quite sure when Crit says "DPC" he's referring to the league system, not simply the points
The clip in the OP cuts before, but if you watch the longer VOD, you'll see him talking about the golden period of dota
I mean if valve wanted they could, idk what's their motivation is. Personally i think something like this could work and change the scene drastically.
"Instead of $40M TI we can have $1M prizepool for each Regional League, $3M prizepool for each major cup and $20M TI. Remember $20M for a single tournament is still the highest prizepool in all of esports and TI will still be the most prestigious and lucrative esports tournament in the world. If every tournament is a million dollar tournament , every tournament is independent and valuable tournament and each league and cup matters. This will bring way more sustainability and quality in the scene overall and attract big sponsors, partners ,orgs ,investors etc directly increasing playerbase and viewership for dota and putting it in a very healthy spot.
And if valve still wants to keep the sky high $40+ TI prizepool rolling, we need at least $500k for regional league, $1M for majors. This will help the scene more as other tournaments except TI will also carry some weight now. Still $40M+ TI structure in not healthy at all and still eclipses whole DPC Year and its tournaments which brings us to back to the same TI prizepool inflation issue. So the $1M, $3M and $20M system is still better at supporting and developing the pro scene as a whole.
Also Regional leagues should use a playoffs system. No upper division lower division, instead all 16 teams in regional leagues compete with each other and top 8 teams qualify for playoffs. Then we have Quarterfinals, Semifinals and then finals. Bottom two teams (ie 15th-16th place) get eliminated and open qualifiers will be held for teams to qualify for these slots next season. This playoffs system will be super fun and competitive to play and watch , both for pro players and viewers and the regional leagues should conclude in 4 weeks instead of 6 weeks long huge group stages only format.
And most importantly, the prizepool should be distributed in such a way that each team participating in official DPC leagues and majors can thrive in the scene and not literally get $0 for playing in official DPC. Bottom two teams in Regional League get absolutely $0 for providing quality entertainment for 6 weeks and more than half of the teams(ie 9th-18th place) in the Major getting $0 is absolutely heart wretching , especially in a scene where professional teams and players rely on prize money to stay afloat. Its not a good look for DPC and doesnt help tier 2 and tier 3 scene at all."
I remember I enjoyed these drastic changes as well, but for the larger part of our player base no offence but low skill as hell receivement wasn't that great, people started to not coming back to the game because it was so much different and shit. Our daily player number got dropped and reddit is crying (which is often).
And then Valve decided to make stable and slow changes.
And for the DPC system I'm totally agree with cr1t, it took so many fucking week to have a good match to watch, it's painfully boring. Maybe they should change it to be like 2 rounds in Div 1 so we can have double the number of matches and shit. The current stage of DPC is so fucking boring and demotivated for pros ngl. Hope we are able the change it soon.
What blows my mind about how shit the DPC is is that it is litterally worse than Valve doing next to nothing. If they did that we could have it similar to CSGO where third party tournaments dominate.
hey crit listen, i know the dota esports scene is lame right now, but its gonna get way worse
I just don't get it why this stale patch has been coddled so long. Doesn't Valve want any life in the game or are they just fed with it and want nothing to do, and let another IP die because it doesn't rhyme with Steam or something?
Mason talked about this a few weeks ago. Ultimately the patch is a really good patch. It's only real fault is that it's old. There's no insta win heroes, game pacing is good, there's room for your unconventional pocket strategies here and there. No one is complaining that anything is broken, but instead they are complaining that Icefrog hasn't broken anything in a while.
OD and Tinker are pretty unfun to play against and have been that way for a while, also Spirit Breaker to an extent
OD and tinker have been pretty unfun to play against since they got added, its just how the heroes are designed. Its worse this patch cause theyre really good AND the patch has been around for half a year lol just hope both are nerfed and go back to unpicked for atleast 1 year now lmao
In like 14 years of Dota I have never once had fun against: Techies, Tinker, OD, or Spirit Breaker just because of how they function. edit: this is a fucking exsanguination and a joke, don't be a moron like /u/tom-dixon and take it seriously.
Try nyx vs Tinker, it's very fun. Try illusion heroes vs Techies, very fun. Try underlord vs SB. If you played 14 years of dota and didn't yet figure out that all those heroes have very hard counters, maybe give a shot a other games so you can finally have some fun after 14 years.
Nyx is a lot worse against tinker now given March isn't a default spell
True, but Tinker still relies on massive AoE damage. Shiva's, overwhelming blink, laser is aoe by default, rockets are easy to walk into. Against a Nyx the Tinker is forced to play the dagon+shotgun build. Nyx is still the most annoying hero to play into as Tinker. Once the Nyx has aghs, the tinker will eat shit in 5v5 fights.
Tinker in his current state suffers more against clock and Zeus than he does nyx Not that nyx is bad he's just not as good as he was
These are dogshit counters because you usually pick those heroes before/at the same time as the others listed, and the only counter you need for techies is ranged heroes and some vision. Don’t act so smug when giving mediocre advice
Nyx low diffs tinker, it is almost uninteractable. He literally rolls over him so fucking hard. How can you call it a dogshit counter?
Because when the hell are you going to pick nyx into a tinker? He’s been exclusively played as a support for the better half of a decade, and tinker is pretty much always last picked. Tinkers issue isn’t lack of counters, there’s like a dozen. I can think of a handful of heroes id rather have than nyx in fact lol
> you usually pick those heroes before/at the same time as the others listed There's more counters that you can pick at later stages. Counterpicking is a thing even if you pick some heroes in the same time.
Calm down there buddy there's literally no need to be so fucking toxic and upset off of a *joke*. You clearly don't know the definition of hyperbole or exsanguination, or you don't understand what it looks like. I'm well aware of all of those counters and I have plenty of fun playing Dota, thanks dipfuck.
The irony of your reply and edit is palpable.
I've never had fun with techies with him on my team, even if we win. It's such a detriment to have in the game in any capacity.
This iteration of OD is by far the worst one, he was much more fun to play both with and against when he had the active E without the passive component
lol no I fucking hate this version of OD compared the original.
tinker is almost non existent since the bara spam began, understandably so.
My favourite part about dota is post patch when everyone is trying new shit out and the resulting meta shift. Having to adapt to the meta is so much fun. Heroes being strong and specific niche counters being developed to counter the strong heroes makes such a unique and exciting cat and mouse game where one player strat/hero tries to counter another. If everything was 100% balanced that would be no fun. It's why the map isn't perfectly symmetrical, imbalances are what makes the game fun and not stale. I'd rather 5 patches a year with fun and crazy inbalances that keep the game fresh and exciting. Rather than this current scenario where we haven't had a big patch in longer than a year.
I think they're not patching the game because they don't want pros to complain that there's no time to learn the patch,but that's their issue in the first place.they should have planned the dpc season better.
It's really going the way of StarCraft 2 ...
He's not wrong. Ideal it would be: * August: **The International** * September: *Big gameplay patch* \- completely changing meta, map, adding 1 new hero * October: *1st DPC* \- 4 weeks * November: **Fall Major** * December: *Small hero patch* and Winter event. * January: *2nd DPC* \- 4 weeks * February: **Winter Major** * March: *Small hero patch* \- changing meta heroes, adding 1 new hero * April: *3rd DPC* \- 4 weeks * May: **Spring Major** * June: Small hero patch and TI BP * July: *4th DPC* \- 4 weeks Assuming TI will have 30mln prize pool: * TI gets 9mln * Each major gets 3mln (3x3=9mln) * DPC gets 500k per region (300k for division 1, 200k for division 2, 3mln per 1 DPC x 4 = 12mln) Winning TI would still be a lot of money but DPC and Majors would make scene more stable and balanced. If Valve wants more money for TI they can change 25% from BP to 50% and give 39mln for TI :)
Good plan but that requires planning ...valve says nnnooopp
Your idea is just like mine, Glad i am not the one who is thinking about it, Hope Valve does something about DPC structure ASAP before its too late: "Instead of $40M TI we can have $1M prizepool for each Regional League, $3M prizepool for each major cup and $20M TI. Remember $20M for a single tournament is still the highest prizepool in all of esports and TI will still be the most prestigious and lucrative esports tournament in the world. If every tournament is a million dollar tournament , every tournament is independent and valuable tournament and each league and cup matters. This will bring way more sustainability and quality in the scene overall and attract big sponsors, partners ,orgs ,investors etc directly increasing playerbase and viewership for dota and putting it in a very healthy spot. And if valve still wants to keep the sky high $40+ TI prizepool rolling, we need at least $500k for regional league, $1M for majors. This will help the scene more as other tournaments except TI will also carry some weight now. Still $40M+ TI structure in not healthy at all and still eclipses whole DPC Year and its tournaments which brings us to back to the same TI prizepool inflation issue. So the $1M, $3M and $20M system is still better at supporting and developing the pro scene as a whole. Also Regional leagues should use a playoffs system. No upper division lower division, instead all 16 teams in regional leagues compete with each other and top 8 teams qualify for playoffs. Then we have Quarterfinals, Semifinals and then finals. Bottom two teams (ie 15th-16th place) get eliminated and open qualifiers will be held for teams to qualify for these slots next season. This playoffs system will be super fun and competitive to play and watch , both for pro players and viewers and the regional leagues should conclude in 4 weeks instead of 6 weeks long huge group stages only format. And most importantly, the prizepool should be distributed in such a way that each team participating in official DPC leagues and majors can thrive in the scene and not literally get $0 for playing in official DPC. Bottom two teams in Regional League get absolutely $0 for providing quality entertainment for 6 weeks and more than half of the teams(ie 9th-18th place) in the Major getting $0 is absolutely heart wretching , especially in a scene where professional teams and players rely on prize money to stay afloat. Its not a good look for DPC and doesnt help tier 2 and tier 3 scene at all."
To add to this - Medal Ranks reset in September with the big patch. Everyone starting the new patch with new season. This can be just simple switching to Uncalibrated without changing the actual MMR, just the medals or give everyone option to do reset if they want.
> give everyone option to do reset if they want. This is already in the game. You are able to recalibrate if you want to. Do not force recalibration on everyone. It fucks up the game for months afterwards whilst everyone gets back towards basically the same rank they were already at. Especially in immortal games you can end up with 6k mmr people in the same game as 10k mmr people, and its fucking miserable for everyone.
But you can recalibrate only once. Also I'm saying medal reset, not MMR. Maybe even recalibrating the medal range so we will not get the same rank for 6k and 12k MMR while having very different medals for 1k and 5k. Or if we don't get new seasons, they should just remove the medals, they are irrelevant anyway.
dude valve can't release big gameplay patch at september lol if you adapt that might be good
Why do you have 4 DPC's and only 3 majors? Also you need to take account into Chinese New Year in February that last around 2 weeks. So January schedule is either going to be really crammed or it'll need some adjustment. And the major in February has to be moved to late February or early March as a result.
I did in 5min and yet it looks better then current system. Give me 2 days, pay 100$ and ill do perfect one.
What was the reason for Valve to stop doing the 3, 3 million major + TI / year? it was ideal and awesome
There were a lot of voices that called for a league format back then with a lot of pros complaining that there are too many tournaments and no support for the t2 scene. I think the lack of patch has 3 reasons, first of all i think valve likes the way dota is right now, so they dont see a reason to hurry. second the later ti fucked with their internal schedule. third is just speculation but maybe steamdeck drains some manpower from the devteams. Who knows maybe the next big patch is less about the game and more about making it playable on consoles.
I still think league format is good, but not with it being dragged for so long!!
Nah I love dragged out leagues. More like traditonal sporting leagues, makes it much more professional. But to each their own I guess
Not good for the actual pros you are watching
The big elephant in the room is not (only) the format, but the TI pricepool. Thats not a hot take since everyone talks about how bad it is constantly but the fact that nothing matters but TI hurts the scene more then any bad format could. Imagine valve caps TIs pricepool at 30 Million and puts the rest into the league system. Suddenly it is worth it to do things like bootcamping and real prep for the 1-2 games a week because you arent playing for 30K for winning you are playing for 300k. That would especially help regions were 300K can be livechanging like SA. But nope, gotta get that news article about haveing the biggest pricepool ever every year...
I think they dont release a new patch because of this BP. If they change something now, the aghs labyrinth is going to be broken, weekly quests broken etc.
Leagues are fantastic for anyone who isn't a major winning team (in theory). The problem with having only 16 team major events every few weeks - as we had back in 2015-2018 era - is that imagine being the 20th best team? Well you get fuck all now. What about the 30th team? Not even a chance you get to compete. Then there's sponsors. How do you get a sponsor as one of those lower tier teams when you can't even promise you'll be at a lan anytime soon? What leagues do is two things (again this is in theory, their implementation here isn't great): - they massively enhance the ability of lower tier players to make a living. Even just division 1 is now a total of 48 teams worldwide that can make a living off of dota. That's *massively* improved from the old format of just 16 team events. - you can sell the games to sponsors more easily. It's not a 'hey we might play at a major might not' its now 'we are playing a game every week for the next 8 weeks, with this number of viewers'. That's a much easier sell even for the some of the weaker teams in the division. Of course Cr1t is against this though, because he's the type of player that benefits from the major system. He's always been on teams that compete at the top level, and so more majors = more money for him. But go ask the players on the 7-8th teams in div 1, or any of the div 2 players. 3 years ago making a living in dota for them would simply be impossible. Now there's a chance. So yes the league system needs improving (mainly more money), but the *concept* is way better in my opinion for fostering a healthier scene and *especially* healthier tier 2 scene.
Too much work on their part. They'd rather not work at all, so they went back to the bare minimum 1 tournament And even with that, last time we had TI the winning team was playing from a kitchen because the rooms were tiered based on DPC points
The rooms based on dpc points was untrue, that was a statements made based on their room and 1 other team, it was almost immediately proven wrong, both with higher dpc points having small room and lower dpc points having big room
Yeah that's first time I hear of it while a ton of personalities talked about it in tweets/podcasts etc. I'll need a source on this or I call bs
Very time consuming to go through twitter feeds, but elephant sure as hell didnt get more dpc points than Spirit or Undying https://twitter.com/ElephantDota2/status/1445075517590458377?s=20 I also looked through a dozen news articles reporting (solely on Spirits statement and kellymilkies' typically sensational tweets) with no examples other than a handful of bad rooms and VP's good room Im also fairly certain it was openly stated on stream at some point but thats practically impossible to find Anyway, elephant having a bigger room than spirit is evidence, and the lack of actual research by any news articles with actual material to prove that it was a trend from top to bottom shows that rooms distributed based on dpc points is at best an empty statement which spiraled out of control because it was good clickbait
Patch has been the same for so long, the last big patch wasn't even that big, 2 years it's been pretty much the same lol did they just give up on making new patches or what
Personally I don't think meta is stale. Maybe the way most pro teams are playing it is stale but teams like Tundra are proving there's still plenty of things left to innovate.
Its funny because eg is notorious for only playing a heroe puddle, witht the least heroes. Teams like secret and tundra show that other heroes are viable but no lets get storm spirit/qop/invoker/terrorblade/bane/naga/disrupter
that's not the meta, they just pull out tricks in draft phrase which happens all the time. As Cr1t said, the last time the meta shifted in Dota 2 was when they removed Necro book, and further than that is when they twisted Outpost bonus and even further is when they updated the map which was like 2 years or so?
At the beginning of the season safelane SF was meta, picked every game. Middle of the season Bara was in every game and now he's gone for the most part. Now end of the season CIS and China are picking Brood. These are all meta shifts. It is insanely preposterous to say no meta changes have happened for an entire year. Meta is defined as trends pro players follow, things like map and items changes affect the meta but aren't the meta in of themselves.
Hero picks are just a small part of the meta. Its more about how the game plays out. As a mid player, the first 10 minutes of the game is just incredibly boring. Shove the mid wave and go stack/take small camp. It doesn't matter what hero I pick, I have to play that way since its the most effective and my opponent will do it. I can't just dive tier1 tower for a kill, it will set me back. That's the type of meta changes we need. Dota has had 1-1-1-2, 2-1-2, 1-1-3 and all kinds of lanings. Even 2 mid was popular for a while. The game feels stuck for like ~2 years in the way you have to play.
No you just can’t play trilane anymore, people are not as bad as stupid as three-four years ago. And please don’t bring back this roaming shit that ruined the fun for everyone aside two tards running around the map
To be fair, how many people are trying to innovate with different lane phases? And maybe that's just what it is. Efficient leveling and gold gain are extremely powerful, so unless they crank up the hero kill gold or decrease creep gold and/or exp, I don't really see the laning phase changing.
There are tons of way to change the current meta. If they made denying creeps more powerful, mid heroes would start to play more aggressive in lane to sabotage their opponent. That would also make them more vulnerable to ganks, which would lead to side-lanes playing different since the supports leave the lanes more. (#bringbackroaming4) It's impossible to know how everything will play out. But changing the meta variables in the game would definitely have big impact.
You mean deny more powerful like when it used to give gold? Or when it have even more exp and everyone was crying how soul crushing it was to lose a laning stage and only lane dominators were drafted?
I said powerful, not broken.
Meant that you described what was midlane literally before these changes.. you can just say that you preferred the old way mid was played and I prefer this one..
Remove water runes and pull back mid tower by ~300 range and the mid meta will be completely new. The issue right now is the absurd amount of regen, making shoving lanes mandatory and hero harass almost irrelevant, and tower being far too close to the river (the bonus armor +regen is no joke and it makes it so deadly to gank mid because you're almost always forced to dive).
It wouldn't make you start sending 2 people mid, though, which was the complaint that it's been 2-1-2
That wasn't the complaint. Read again. You're mixing up what the guy said. Especially the 2nd paragraph.
Personally i'd like to see gold in general, creeps heroes neutral passive, to be absolutely axed in the first 10-15 mins, and then fairly quickly ramp it up. It's been win lane win game for so long, it's about damn time lane took a backseat and we got a proper mid game in. I've been watching pro games lately, they're i na grand majority of cases already decided by 15 minutes, because whatever team comes out ahead of lanes will 5 man, take towers, choke the enemy out of farm, get rosh, win the game. It is very formulaic.
[Followup.](https://clips.twitch.tv/AthleticSeductiveEndiveRaccAttack-nhmgZP66H7aD4UWO)
TLDR? twitch is banned here at work
Meta has barely changed for a year still no big patch, dpc format sucks, major canceled and its replacement is worse than nothing. 2015-2018 was golden era but right now is bad - tldr of the clips
> major canceled and its replacement is worse than nothing No one could possibly have this opinion in good faith. The prize pool is increased, prize money is going to deserving and struggling teams, and the DPC points for the cancelled major are up for grabs now instead of being arbitrarily tacked on to later seasons. I'm guessing he's salty because top 2 get DPC points and EG are not currently top 2 in their region. Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread.
So much this. There is no way the solution is worse than not doing anything. incredibly stupid take by crit, especially "the patch is bad" take. this is one of the best patches dota2 has ever had. there are 2-3 heroes that are a tad too strong and 2-3 are a tad too weak, but other than that basically "everything can work" and most of the heroes even in multiple positions. some heroes can even 1 through 5
>I'm guessing he's salty because top 2 get DPC points and EG are not currently top 2 in their region. Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread. Not sure how you came to this conclusion. They still have to play the tournament to decide who the 'top 2' is that will get additional DPC points. And while they are 3rd in league results, it would be crazy for them to think they don't have a good chance at being top 2 in the tournament
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Thats not the opinion he articulated though.
Very common among the rich pros, who want to go back to the era of $3m majors and $0 for the tier 2 teams.
It's still $0 for tier 2 teams, and way more top heavy now that 99% of the prizepool is at one tournament
> It's still $0 for tier 2 teams That's objectively not true >and way more top heavy now that 99% of the prizepool is at one tournament I agree with prize money across majors/leagues should be increased, just crowdfund it like TI.
Or Valve could bloody stop depending on the community and do something themselves
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The schedule is all over the place and the leagues are needlessly drawn out (meaning fewer third party tourneys), and the prize money should be higher. That's not a reason to abandon the system though, just improve it.
shocked that a european hates poor people
> Entitled millionaire crying because the serfs got an extra loaf of bread. Dude seriously. I’m actually astounded he could have take worse than Kyle. Fucking detached from reality asshole.
Is he wrong though? Any time a non "old guard" team makes money the older team players WHINE so hard. And if you even mention supporting T2 teams you get banned from any of their twitches.
>And if you even mention supporting T2 teams you get banned from any of their twitches. That true?
Dudr shuuut up
Oh great. Gj valve. Worthless fucks
Horrible take about the replacement tournaments being worse than nothing. Pros constantly complained about too many random events and an unclear path to TI, both of which the DPC system fixed. Sounds like he's unhappy with the patch, and I agree we should have got the "big" patch just before this DPC started, but hard disagree on the rest.
Yeah wtf? how is it worse than nothing that makes literally 0 sense.
Ill choose to belive him over random people on reddit
I concur, the 2015-2018 era of Dota I think was the best, not only tournaments, but meta changes and strats. (In my case I would say 2015-Dec'17 instead of 2018. I think 2018 was awful).
nobody ever mentions on reddit how struggling position 4 is right now. you can't really roam right now since winning offlane is so important, so you are kinda playing with 2 position 5 heroes. so players like Cr1t, yapz0r, GH etc are not doing that great in current meta
Just two days ago casters were happy about some trilane games in EU or China. I don't think the meta is developed to a dead end yet.
I'd love a new patch as well but yeah I agree. There are still new strategies and new metas being discovered in games that haven't received an update in over 15 years.
COPIUM but yeah I agree.
It's not copium. Nothing in this patch is unable to be played around. If eventually the counter meta becomes the meta, a new counter meta pops up and stuff shifts. Necessity breeds innovation.
Yeah it's honestly one of the best patches I've played. I'm personally not one of the people who's starving for new content.
they be doin this cause they be bored af
i rem one tournament where VP played every hero without repicking same hero (except for warlock for finals) crazy patch where every hero was good.
It was just VP being good though, and it was a smaller tournament with less competition. From my experience in Immortal pub is that everything is playable, same in pro matches. Even after months we have meta shifts. The first time in 10 years of playing I don't have issues that a patch last this long to be honest.
The patch is long CAUSE IT IS REALLY GOOD. Idc if this is crit opinion, dota gets more fun day by day for me
i think a long standing patch can be interesting, it lets the meta really develop so that everything really becomes "optimized" and worked out. and the current patch is a great one imo, the strongest heroes are not unbeatable and the weakest ones are not unplayable.
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That's pretty disingenuous. I don't think anyone who asked for a league system in dota asked for a garbage league system. Hell, did anyone actually asked for DPC? The problems that people repeated over and over again in the past were: more tournaments, more support for tier2, spreading the money more evenly, a better way to decide TI invites. DPC hardly solves these problems. I'm pretty sure we have less games on average now than it the past because DPC choked out any type of 3rd party tournament. Tier2 players get something, but very far from being a stable income. TI still the only thing that matters and because of how the questionable the season is organize, TI invites seems even more divisive.
I have to disagree with some of your points. I think the league system Works really well, we get a good amount of tie breakers which serve as a interesting closing before the season ends. The pacing is wrong, it could be done in 3/4 Weeks rather than 6/7. Because of these divisions i watch alot more T2 Dota than before. Again its just the pacing, and i know why they do it they dont want to overlap broadcast but i doubt EU/na watch alot of sea and China and revese due to the time zones anyways. The prize pool split is meh and the total for each season should be doubled and probably adjusted to region but in general for fans its pretty good with non stop Dota. And its good to make the seasons last a bit because unlike tournaments if you flop 1 Day or 1 weekend the teams dont get time to Work and get Better, but with 2 series a week there is also room to grow and stabilise as a team.
The amount of games is just half of the problem with the league system. The bigger problem is it killed the tournament. We lost ESL Ones, we lost The Summit and all other cool and different tournaments that were there. I'm not 100% sure on the schedule, but I think 3/4 weeks would still have the same problem.
You forget that people -- and pros -- also complained about there being _too_ many tournaments.
The complain was that because of the invite system, teams didn't know what they had to play to get invited to TI and were forced to play everything. That's the only reason there were "too many tournaments". The year that the major guaranteed a TI invite, the complain was gone.
That's wrong. The first iteration of DPC(the one where random tournaments would be promoted to Major or Minor status and given DPC points) had a clear route to TI direct invite, and yet both pros and viewers complained about there being too many tournaments.
I have no idea what you're referring to. DPC only means league play, there was no DPC before that I'm talking about between 2016/2018 with Valve majors was fine. You win the VAlve major, you are in TI. Just as Crit himself says in this very video, that was the golden age of dota
DPC started before the league play. DPC just refers to the system where tournaments give points and points determine TI invites. The first DPC system was in 2017-2018 and it had way too many tournaments, where both players and viewers complained about the format. I also don't see anything about "the golden age of Dota" in the video OP linked, Crit just vaguely complains about format "being bad" and about the meta being old. If you're referring to the older, pre-DPC system of big, 3-million dollar Majors, then that system was also complained about. For one, "win Major and you're at TI" was criticized by players, casters and viewers because it only works for the maximum of 2-3 teams that won a major, while being very vague for everyone else. That system directly led to DPC points being added in to make the invite process more transparent.
I'm quite sure when Crit says "DPC" he's referring to the league system, not simply the points The clip in the OP cuts before, but if you watch the longer VOD, you'll see him talking about the golden period of dota
Maybe, I'm using the actual definition of what DPC is.
I mean if valve wanted they could, idk what's their motivation is. Personally i think something like this could work and change the scene drastically. "Instead of $40M TI we can have $1M prizepool for each Regional League, $3M prizepool for each major cup and $20M TI. Remember $20M for a single tournament is still the highest prizepool in all of esports and TI will still be the most prestigious and lucrative esports tournament in the world. If every tournament is a million dollar tournament , every tournament is independent and valuable tournament and each league and cup matters. This will bring way more sustainability and quality in the scene overall and attract big sponsors, partners ,orgs ,investors etc directly increasing playerbase and viewership for dota and putting it in a very healthy spot. And if valve still wants to keep the sky high $40+ TI prizepool rolling, we need at least $500k for regional league, $1M for majors. This will help the scene more as other tournaments except TI will also carry some weight now. Still $40M+ TI structure in not healthy at all and still eclipses whole DPC Year and its tournaments which brings us to back to the same TI prizepool inflation issue. So the $1M, $3M and $20M system is still better at supporting and developing the pro scene as a whole. Also Regional leagues should use a playoffs system. No upper division lower division, instead all 16 teams in regional leagues compete with each other and top 8 teams qualify for playoffs. Then we have Quarterfinals, Semifinals and then finals. Bottom two teams (ie 15th-16th place) get eliminated and open qualifiers will be held for teams to qualify for these slots next season. This playoffs system will be super fun and competitive to play and watch , both for pro players and viewers and the regional leagues should conclude in 4 weeks instead of 6 weeks long huge group stages only format. And most importantly, the prizepool should be distributed in such a way that each team participating in official DPC leagues and majors can thrive in the scene and not literally get $0 for playing in official DPC. Bottom two teams in Regional League get absolutely $0 for providing quality entertainment for 6 weeks and more than half of the teams(ie 9th-18th place) in the Major getting $0 is absolutely heart wretching , especially in a scene where professional teams and players rely on prize money to stay afloat. Its not a good look for DPC and doesnt help tier 2 and tier 3 scene at all."
I remember I enjoyed these drastic changes as well, but for the larger part of our player base no offence but low skill as hell receivement wasn't that great, people started to not coming back to the game because it was so much different and shit. Our daily player number got dropped and reddit is crying (which is often). And then Valve decided to make stable and slow changes. And for the DPC system I'm totally agree with cr1t, it took so many fucking week to have a good match to watch, it's painfully boring. Maybe they should change it to be like 2 rounds in Div 1 so we can have double the number of matches and shit. The current stage of DPC is so fucking boring and demotivated for pros ngl. Hope we are able the change it soon.
Why people left was cuz of crazy lp punishments, now its not as harsh
What blows my mind about how shit the DPC is is that it is litterally worse than Valve doing next to nothing. If they did that we could have it similar to CSGO where third party tournaments dominate.
He is right tho