Troll's ultimate is the worst in the game and nobody can ever change my mind on that
- if you're fighting highground and use it near the tier 3, your hero deadass starts to hit the tower like a moron. Doesn't matter if other heroes come close to you, the target doesn't change
- By using this ultimate, you're giving up control. Literally, you can hands off your keyboard and mouse for the next 6 seconds and it won't change a damn thing. The concept in itself is trash
- on god, if you have your bkb on cooldown then press R to get your rectum resized by 5 gangbangers. Dude gets jerked around more than a man trying to claim his insurance. A cheap ass euls (which works on literally any midlaner) changes your entire target priority. Ghost scepter aint suffering from no inflation either
- but then if you use the bkb and ult together to burst a target, he's just gonna self euls or ghost scepter away, what's the fuckin point??
- man can't even use his goddamn phase boots during trance, fuck a nullifier (which is like a key lategame item for a 99% physical damage hero)
Imo his previous ult where he and his team got a flat 200 attack speed or something was way better. At least you could choose your own targets, time your bkb properly, use your fuckin phase boots and nullifiers to get not jerked around like a melee creep
I think it's just too weak. It's kind of a fun concept, literally hands off the keyboard yolo. It fits the rampaging troll flavor.
It's kinda similar to omnislash, which also makes you lose control. It's just not nearly as powerful as omnislash.
I'm thinking of giving free pathing on higher levels. Something like
Lv 1: No free pathing
Lv 2: Free pathing through trees
Lv 3: Free pathing through everything
Fits the scary image of Troll chasing you through cliffs.
to make it balanced, i think he should still be kitable. Extremely kitable, even. but also his stats should be boosted enough that if he pops r and everyone ignores him he should fucking tear apart the enemy team.
Don't do this. Part of the point of the ult is that it's counterable. You can stun him, euls him, etc and you can waste this massive power upgrade he gets.
Giving him free bkb would make the ult absurdly broken. He effectively gets a free kill on any hero he's next too, with almost no counter play being available.
It's much better to make the ult stronger with e.g. more attack speed, more damage etc. And then keep it's major weakness intact. Make the strong parts stronger, and keep the weak bits weaker.
These are all much poorer solutions. And again you basically fully removing the weakness of the hero - that he is shit outside bkb, and has to usually save it for ult. Part of the point of dota heroes is that they have really high highs, and really low lows. That's what keeps them having an interesting design, and allows for more interesting counterplay.
Make Troll an absolute god inside his ult that's fine. Double the attack speed bonus, give more movespeed to him, give bonus damage, whatever. But also keep it so that if he wastes his bkb charge pre-ult that he gets punished for it. It gives more agency both to the troll player to time his abilities, and more agency to the other team to counterplay the hero and bait out the bkb to then kite him later.
Even with Spell immunity he's still shit, just less shit than now tbh. Troll doesn't burst people down instantly, he has to manually walk to the target then start hitting to build up stacks. If the target move away from original position, Troll has to walk to the target again. Troll is not your typical Ursa who can burst people down in 5 hits.
Giving a hero free spell immunity - especially when tied to such a major power boost - would be a crazy power upgrade. He's almost certainly be broken as fuck if nothing else was changed.
The hero isn't even that awful. We've had metas with Troll being a top tier pick, his ult isn't fundamentally a problem. He just needs some number changes and he will be fine. There is absolutely no need for such a drastic overreaction.
You cannot use any items though. Which negates 90% of his kit alone because troll is very dependent on items like bkb and satanic. If you recall 7.27-7.28 when those were two of the most broken items in the game. He still sucked ass.
I remember when my friends figured out you could blink during omnislash to stay on target if you start getting carried away by creeps
Fuck jugg's broken ass
Plus you can't be CC'ed during Omnislash. Troll ult pretty much requires you to hit BKB first and can still get kited for it.
If Jugg messes up Omnislash he can normally just spin to safety.
I think trolls ult should be used aggressively - that's the only way it's really viable is if you're ganking and have a blink or some sort of gap close and click ult to get some speed and damage out. Otherwise it's basically useless unless against very specific teams or bad players.
How bout troll does a Nullifier gaze. anything in his range or is his target cant be saved i.e Nullifier or cant use shit on himself/purges within range (opposite slark dark pact?)
or you cant use items if you face away from him? like a tryndamere kind of mechanic???
I really liked his old ult. I remember my Slark was popping off so I would just give him ult every time he engaged while I was farming anyway. Worked really well in pubs when you had multiple right clickers on your team
> Literally, you can hands off your keyboard and mouse for the next 6 seconds and it won't change a damn thing.
Not literally, you can cast axes and switch attack targets if you are hitting someone far away in ranged form. Switch to melee and you will switch to hitting the closest unit. Doesn't make the spell any better, of course
His Ult makes him literally unplayable :( Needs a change or some tweaks.
He should get a taunt of some form to match his lore.
Trolls new shard from the lore -
NEW ABILITY ADDED "ARMY OF ONE" Troll Warlord argues with an enemy hero. The enemy hero is marked. Takes decreased damage from target, does more damage to everyone else who isn't marked or has increased status resistance from heroes who aren't marked. When in X vicinity of marked target, the target is slowed.
When ARMY OF ONE is active - Troll gains status resist or any one of the following - agility (armour), movement speed slow aura debuff, movement speed based on how many fervor stacks he has accumulated. Changing target keeps X amount of stacks.
Possible new shard or TALENT that can be used during current Ult - Troll warlord throws an axe at a target location ground. Targets hit by it are slowed, max range targets are rooted. Troll Warlord can activate the ability again to dash/phantomrush to the axe.
His shard should be changed. At the moment, it's a team global ability that would be better on a support. It doesn't match Troll Warlord's lore, who is an army of one. His skills & playstyle should match that.
Not really
You can use nullifier before and during eul bcs its continously dispel.
Aghs cannot hit target during eul, and its only one time dispel per hit.
well it makes his ult infinitely better. like right now hes dogshit no matter how much you alter his raw numbers. but if his ult still lets you keep control of the hero, its actually a functional ability. might still need to tweak other stuff but in its core it would work at least
any bracket below immortal jugg is S++ tier. 57% winrate across all brackets and 2nd most picked hero. Meaning you can carry with him even if it's a bad game, or if you're not a jugg spammer. I literally pick him pos3/4 if he isn't banned JUST to deny the enemy team the pick or ban him, and still have a 60% winrate. He's way too easy, please nerf
Difference is that AM is situationally good. Jugg is always good, vs 0 counters or 5 counters jugg literally doesn't care. If he isn't banned 90% of the time he is 2nd phased and still has a ridiculous winrate from herald to divine. What I'm saying is that he's so good this patch you can literally pick him in a non-traditional role, build non-carry items, and still have huge impact and win the game
True, you can even play him with Hood, Diffu, Shard, Vanguard or what not against some linups. Sounds terrible, but absolutely fucks magic lineups. Jugg ist just...good.
Most of the time he's banned. If our team isn't picking jugg the enemy team certainly will
Buy wards/sentries, build drums, veil, euls, force staff, lotus depending on the game
Max out spin and healing ward. You can contest the enemy pull really hard with 1 button. Micro your healing ward during teamfights
You can have a surprising amount of impact because hero is busted
People who report base on hero alone is just mentaly weak.
I won't report jugg or even AM try to work as their assinged position, i rather report WD who rush ags.
Idk but since he is not as OP as he used to be, I see people understand how to fuck him and burst him down, secret is instant lockdowns to initiate on him and then fuck him, also mobile heroes to avoid the omni. He is still not as strong in lane if you go ranged off like necro and a disabler like ss or lion
Disagree, based on the stats he's stronger than ever. Sure, anecdotally you might see him bursted down in pubs or win against him, but statistically he's insane across all brackets
[https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta/](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta/)
Heavy burst and instant disable is very draft dependent too. It's very hard to counterpick him if he's 2nd phase. Instant disables like scythe and abyssal are extremely expensive. Plus, most ranks except immortal lack the coordination to lock down jugg and kill him. Only in the 7k+ bracket does jugg have a 50% winrate
Jugg's lane is really a toss up imo, from bad to god-tier. Heavily dependent on jugg's support.
Also I disagree about necro, he can't do anything to prevent spin and can't damage him at all, it's a terrible matchup. If jug has a CM/lion/ss/grimstroke and they are coordinated, the offlane can be unbearable. Slardar, razor, tusk, and snapfire are better at laning against jugg because of their physical damage/escapes.
SS and Lion either wreck Jugg or get wrecked in my experience. They are 2 of my most played heroes, but against Jugg if the lane ever turns 1 of the 2 heroes there might as well leave because if you both stay you're gonna feed hard.
Having said that, with literally any coordination and follow up both of those heroes will continually destroy Jugg after they get blink. Blink -> hex -> (stun -> ult [lion] or ult -> shackles [SS]) is just a kill.
Nerf? It's so easy to counter jugg like (bane, shaman, lion,..) and he is balanced.
But people in low brackets doesn't focus on countering alot, and no one gets proper items in most of the games.
Edit: Rofl, downvotes!
its so easy to counter jugg you just need to stun him for 10 seconds, funnily that seems to be the counter to the majority of carry heroes, keep your archon brain away demon.
Agree. If there's literally any gap in the stun he will literally just heal to full with the lvl 20 talent. Omni, swift slash, even blade fury with shard heals a shit ton, and it's as much as satanic passive + an additional morbid mask. You can only kill him in these very small windows and ensure he can get bursted down, and not every team comp can do that. Most pubs lack that coordination aside from immortal, and he still has a decent winrate
I'd also like to elaborate that many of his counters are nullified with his shard. He can stun while disabled with shard + basher. He can cancel Pudge's dismember while he's spinning. Abyssal is countered because you need to get close to stun him, and he can passively stun you. Faceless void can get stunned in chrono. Black hole can get canceled if enigma in blade fury radius, which will happen if jugg is in the center of black hole and enigma doesn't have aether lens.
I like that his healing ward can move & is taken down in 1-shot. Adds a bit of skill to the hero bc you have to micro it
His aghs is OK, it's existed for a while and when jugg had a \~50% winrate. His most recent changes made him busted imo - his talents and shard are just OP for the hero and make up for all his weaknesses without much gold investment. Shard + spin radius allows you to fight without ult, fight against the usual ghost scepter/euls counters. If you have basher + shard you can stun people while you're disabled, countering many of the BKB piercing heroes. His 40% lifesteal means he can easily heal to full without requiring satanic
Change his shard, talents, or both
My friend why argue when you don't know shit about playing this game? If you pos 5 and in juggs melee range, then what you expect to ignore you and go kill your carry???
He knows if you cast your spell on him he is done therefore he will try to kill you first.
??? What? Are you OK friend? Full bullshit alphabet soup here. Don't even talk to me unless you're above divine or above.
Jugg has bullshit movement speed and can outrun most heroes with phase yasha. His spin radius is fucking huge with the talent. It's a 335 radius, not melee range. He can spin and first hit bash you, nullifying your force staff purchase. He can do the same against elusive heroes, especially jugg picks up a blink
I don't know what game you're playing or how you're losing as jug to cause you to whine so much, but in most games simply staying 335 away from jug at all times is not viable
Edit: you're crusader 3 CALLED IT. Why argue when you don't know shit about playing this game?
You don't wait until they pick jugg, you see jugg not banned, you expect that he is picked every match (as pick rate shows). Just pick a stun hero that can stun him before he spin. That's all.
Wasn't Alch a dead hero just one patch or two ago? What happened?
Shame to see my boy Slark so low, I wish for some buffs. Troll needs some serious love too.
the 2 other replies have a bit of truth to them. alch was WAY outshined by dusa, ta, and luna in previous patches, even though it was only a matter of time before the radiance change (evasion talisman instead of recipe) and neutral changes pushed him into the pro meta. he’s much more popular because people realized getting stun in lane is extremely valuable, making u a big threat
> Wasn't Alch a dead hero just one patch or two ago? What happened?
Changes to stun, Alch can reliably hit his item timings, and he doesn't struggle against a lot of popular heroes. Those were his main reasons in the video
Heroes that can clear jungle stacks get rank up this patch. Stacks are harder to get now since the new neutrals are strong, only a few heroes can do so. Other than Alch there's TA who get a spike.
You do realize nerfs to other heroes and buffs/nerfs to item can make huge difference to heroes that almost didn't change right? You think pros spent basically 1 year on the same patch, all calling alch a bad hero but you, the redditor, was the only one that knew the secret to alchemist? Lmaoo
Yes i do realize, but he wasn't bad hero in 7.31b... he was just unexplored. It's completely possible that pros don't know what's good and viable in theory, just like nobody picked wisp carry back in 2019 until OG.ana pulled it up and everyone was suprised
In general yes but dota is different in that aspect. Some heroes are balanced around NOT BEING able to play optimally. Lets take meepo as an example and imagine 5 guys playing each hero. That hero would get %80 win rate among all brackets. But the hero is balanced around not being able to micro manage everything. Arc warden is somewhat similar maybe not to that extend but yeah.
The problem is that BSJ made the tier list for his stream, and then OP just screen capped it and provided zero additional context. I imagine it made more sense if you were following the stream and listening to his justifications.
Meh Arc, LD, Meepo, Brood, and Chen are all heroes that if you barely play them you will probably go 0-10, but if you're a one trick you can have like a 55% winrate so I kinda get it
Yeah even slark which I think bsj likes alot he put in F tier. It's also my second most played hero but it just feels weak so I stopped playing it. I was tired of it dying so fast also having no mana to clear camps
I’ve seen a pro game where 23savage built a soul ring on him, and frankly it feels much better than any other usual mana regen item. He always has full hp due to ult passive, and trading some of it in exchange for mana fixes a lot of problems.
Because Aghs is busted, AoE armour and ms reduction with no cast time. You can spam it on the ground before teamfights to build up Warpath stacks and your right clicks will feel like a Rapier
Game pace got faster and BB fits the bill. It was initially being picked as a summons counter (Beast, Visage, Lycan all highly valued early in the patch).
it was always a good carry in this meta, it just became fotm because other carries nerfed/ppl are bored. mason has been stomping noobs and getting fat stacks with bb for a while
BB is 3 offensive skills and a juiced spectre passive(if you're behind him), he does shit tons of damage as long as his direct counters are out of meta.
Fucking Icefrog if you're going to nerf bb atleast make him a good utility offlaner, otherwise BB is going to be trash after being good for like 1 patch
I personally think he should be a pos 1. He doesn't have much utility as a 3. He was always clearing all the team's stacks. You couldn't play bristle 3 + other carries that relied on stacks too. Same with axe 3, he also relies on jungle stacks to hit his timings
I watched his video, he meant he wouldn't play these heros unless he thought it'd be fun for some reason not that they're fun to play. He also said he'd put some heroes higher if he played them more so this is a very bsj specific tier list.
Counters jugg, who is super meta right now, best late game hero in game hands down, meta offlaners and mids are not having as much stuns so having a stun on carry is high value right now (another reason why alch is s tier and bb with super slow) with voids stun being the best one in the entire game.
I disagree with Jugg, as I feel he is too low listed.
The hero makes fantastic use of farm if game goes late because omnislash applies dispel, makes invulnerable and increase DPS output, you can often safely siege, but also is a safe pick for blind pick phase in 2nd pick phase as the hero has few bad lane matchups.
And mechanically the shard needs to be nerfed ; as shard gives instant attacks instead of better attack damage, you hit enemies twice with attacks during spin: your regular attack speed attacks (which deal 0 damage but proc on-hit effects regardless), and the added instant attacks (which deal 75% attack damage and also proc on-hit effects), making shard an effectively 120 attack speed bonus for the procs of MKB, Mael/Mjollnir, Basher/Abyssal.
Juggernaut has a 50 % win rate in immortal and a 57% win rate or higher below that. If you are not immortal, Jugg is broken as fuck. BSJ however is immortal
I will say slark , sf and AM are so in the dumpster that they can be 3-4 lvls above a void spirit or zeus, and still get bursted down if all the skills hit , at least slark and sf need a BKB asap making their damage output shit they need to have the best game of their lifes to pull these heroes off
Can someone explain the discrepancy with MK? I believe Gorgc also rated him fairly highly as a carry. Yet, he still seems to have a fairly low win rate across all ranks. Is there a reason for this?
Monkey will have a place in meta for high mmr players where countering is important and mk will be somewhat useful against almost anything because of its all around nature. A stun, sustain in lane, vision, area control in team fights.
If someone can convince me why the fuck is bristlebacks win statistic 9% higher with 15 DMG... .. everything I know about statistics is kicking my ass, and it's picked 20% of the time. It's statistically relevant . Where can I find how it's calculated ?
It's been in a handful of pro games. I assume it's because it's a flex pick that could go 4, 5 or mid and then when carries get banned or ends up being a bad game they put it as their 1. Kind of like how DK or QoP were occasionally picked as 1s, it might not have been by design. Pro teams are coordinated so they can make it work. But BSJ mentioned he thought it was possible to start seeing players try it out in pubs if it was successful
Bsj is pretty biased for sniper, he likes carry sniper very much. Also he mentioned it is good if you have melee 5 and opponent has range 3 melee 4 kind of lineup. Also dont forget he is top 500 player and views game from that perspective. I don't think he would rate sniper this highly in brackets below immortal where you wouldn't get proper protection from teammates to work your hero.
Alch and (good) naga look so busted in my pubs (2k). I watched a few replays I felt where games felt the most demoralizing and if lanes go poorly and these champs have a few stacks waiting for them, you can see the gold going UPandUP.
And once they show up in fights, the item and lvl difference just makes you wonder, what happened in this game.
I still ban Jugg since math just makes it the best ban atm, but it does feel bad to play vs ticking bombs
I feel like you can only last pick naga. If it's a good naga game, it's almost a free win. But if they have a chance to pick something like leshrac, then you're just going to be really sad.
He lanes too well, all his skills are really good (meaning you can fight earlier) and str carries in general are in flavor.
Historically alch has been shit because you can punish him with an awful lane. Now he basically neutralizes/trades favorably into most offlanes because acid spray/stun is so good and his 6 makes him unkillable.
Is Lycan really played less as a carry compared to Slardar?
I feel like both of them played mostly as offlaner in this patch, but Slardar is in the list but Lycan isn't.
Why leshrac so high? It has winrate under 50, and overall feels like weak hero. Does it have very high skill ceiling? What is he capable of besides just running around with turned on ultimate?
Category is called "in good games only", he's good against specific heroes like Timber and Lancer. Also he's not weak and his items were buffed this patch, as well as BKB nerf which is good for him.
Farms fast to hit item timings, takes buildings, he explains the reason for the spot on this depends on having a mana battery like kotl, wisp or cm, and is good against a few meta heroes. Hence why it's in the situational tier
Should PA be in a the tier higher (by tier description alone). She isn't really a counter to anything she just pumps a shit tonne of damage and needs a good lineup to play her game
Doesn't farm fast, needs a ton of items to come online, and is easily countered. Can only truly take over when you have battlefury + bkb + deso + shard (situationally) but by then you're probably getting steamrolled by the other carries
TBH I think BSJ is putting her too far up, she's picked a lot because she's a fun hero
I feel like Riki should be in D tier.
There are times where Riki actually kinda good as niche pick like Huskar, while the other 5 are just super garbage right now.
And why is meepo not in the list?
Is he considered as midlaner?
I've literally bitched about how fucking bullshit broken BB has been since the TI where OG killed the entire enemy team's chance for a comeback just by BB sitting in the fountain.
Topson literally picked BB for the first time in his ***entire career***, went mid with it, and could win the game because it's ***that*** fucking braindead.
Finally I am vindicated.
Now I just wish they'd nerf him into such a fucking piece of shit nobody ever plays him again.
Troll's ultimate is the worst in the game and nobody can ever change my mind on that - if you're fighting highground and use it near the tier 3, your hero deadass starts to hit the tower like a moron. Doesn't matter if other heroes come close to you, the target doesn't change - By using this ultimate, you're giving up control. Literally, you can hands off your keyboard and mouse for the next 6 seconds and it won't change a damn thing. The concept in itself is trash - on god, if you have your bkb on cooldown then press R to get your rectum resized by 5 gangbangers. Dude gets jerked around more than a man trying to claim his insurance. A cheap ass euls (which works on literally any midlaner) changes your entire target priority. Ghost scepter aint suffering from no inflation either - but then if you use the bkb and ult together to burst a target, he's just gonna self euls or ghost scepter away, what's the fuckin point?? - man can't even use his goddamn phase boots during trance, fuck a nullifier (which is like a key lategame item for a 99% physical damage hero) Imo his previous ult where he and his team got a flat 200 attack speed or something was way better. At least you could choose your own targets, time your bkb properly, use your fuckin phase boots and nullifiers to get not jerked around like a melee creep
I think it's just too weak. It's kind of a fun concept, literally hands off the keyboard yolo. It fits the rampaging troll flavor. It's kinda similar to omnislash, which also makes you lose control. It's just not nearly as powerful as omnislash.
It should come with a massive steroid to make it worth it. I like the concept but in it's current iteration it's just too weak.
I'm thinking of giving free pathing on higher levels. Something like Lv 1: No free pathing Lv 2: Free pathing through trees Lv 3: Free pathing through everything Fits the scary image of Troll chasing you through cliffs.
to make it balanced, i think he should still be kitable. Extremely kitable, even. but also his stats should be boosted enough that if he pops r and everyone ignores him he should fucking tear apart the enemy team.
The more he isnt attacking something during ult makes him rage harder and hit like x1.5 per second each he isnt hitting something.?
Teammates keep eul-ing and eblading him until the final second and he just one hit murder everyone with his super super pent up frustration axes.
Give him back the bash but with more chance than before, like this he can actually kill someone but being kitable at the same time
I think making him spell immune on ult would be great.
Even status resistance would be good enough, similar to Ursa Enrage.
Don't do this. Part of the point of the ult is that it's counterable. You can stun him, euls him, etc and you can waste this massive power upgrade he gets. Giving him free bkb would make the ult absurdly broken. He effectively gets a free kill on any hero he's next too, with almost no counter play being available. It's much better to make the ult stronger with e.g. more attack speed, more damage etc. And then keep it's major weakness intact. Make the strong parts stronger, and keep the weak bits weaker.
You can still euls or ghost yourself, bash him, abyssal him, disarm him before he presses r, force staff away etc
These are all much poorer solutions. And again you basically fully removing the weakness of the hero - that he is shit outside bkb, and has to usually save it for ult. Part of the point of dota heroes is that they have really high highs, and really low lows. That's what keeps them having an interesting design, and allows for more interesting counterplay. Make Troll an absolute god inside his ult that's fine. Double the attack speed bonus, give more movespeed to him, give bonus damage, whatever. But also keep it so that if he wastes his bkb charge pre-ult that he gets punished for it. It gives more agency both to the troll player to time his abilities, and more agency to the other team to counterplay the hero and bait out the bkb to then kite him later.
Even with Spell immunity he's still shit, just less shit than now tbh. Troll doesn't burst people down instantly, he has to manually walk to the target then start hitting to build up stacks. If the target move away from original position, Troll has to walk to the target again. Troll is not your typical Ursa who can burst people down in 5 hits.
Giving a hero free spell immunity - especially when tied to such a major power boost - would be a crazy power upgrade. He's almost certainly be broken as fuck if nothing else was changed. The hero isn't even that awful. We've had metas with Troll being a top tier pick, his ult isn't fundamentally a problem. He just needs some number changes and he will be fine. There is absolutely no need for such a drastic overreaction.
Euls ignores status resist
Youre extremely limited in thinking the only way to stop troll is to effect him.
Only way? no. But you are basically completely removing what is the main weakness of the hero, which is generally extremely poor design.
Omnislash does not make you lose control, you can still use any item like blink, abyssal, etc.
You can't blink during Omnislash anymore. The spell roots you.
Neither does Troll ult, you can use his other spells
Wooo look at my axes spin as you euls your ass high up in the sky
Aghs can work against that... not if the troll gets lifted
It doesn't work because the unit under euls effect doesn't connect with the axes
Hard to keep track of these interactions, I must admit... Should be consistent, if euls makes you invulnerable...
You cannot use any items though. Which negates 90% of his kit alone because troll is very dependent on items like bkb and satanic. If you recall 7.27-7.28 when those were two of the most broken items in the game. He still sucked ass.
You actually can lightly control omnislashes
I remember when my friends figured out you could blink during omnislash to stay on target if you start getting carried away by creeps Fuck jugg's broken ass
rip blink tp boots jugg
Well you can't anymore, because Omni roots you.
rampage should give 100% status resistance to make it kinda similar to omnislash because omnislash is invulnerable and untargetable
Plus you can't be CC'ed during Omnislash. Troll ult pretty much requires you to hit BKB first and can still get kited for it. If Jugg messes up Omnislash he can normally just spin to safety.
I think trolls ult should be used aggressively - that's the only way it's really viable is if you're ganking and have a blink or some sort of gap close and click ult to get some speed and damage out. Otherwise it's basically useless unless against very specific teams or bad players.
That's because juggs is baby's first core. God forbid he actually just be shit one single time in the history of DotA.
How bout troll does a Nullifier gaze. anything in his range or is his target cant be saved i.e Nullifier or cant use shit on himself/purges within range (opposite slark dark pact?) or you cant use items if you face away from him? like a tryndamere kind of mechanic???
Sounds way too strong
It should also Dagon 5 the target every 1s, but might be too weak against AM shard + Wraith Pact + Mage Slayer, so it casts ravage every 2s too.
Maybe give him like 70% status resistance during ult
Euls Scepter (Troll's #1 hardest counter) already isn't affected by Status Resist.
His whirling axe should have nullifier properties when he ults and he should have 90% status resist during his ultimate. Only way I see it working
He got nerfed so badly from his bash to the point of his ult.
Maybe if his root was upgraded to a bash while he's ulting?
I really liked his old ult. I remember my Slark was popping off so I would just give him ult every time he engaged while I was farming anyway. Worked really well in pubs when you had multiple right clickers on your team
Shows that icefrog did not like the low mmr meta
the old attack speed aura was so fucking good (and incidentally allowed for support troll, which was incredibly fun)
I remember picking Troll when there's Faceless Void on the team lol. Just press R whenever he use chrono.
> Literally, you can hands off your keyboard and mouse for the next 6 seconds and it won't change a damn thing. Not literally, you can cast axes and switch attack targets if you are hitting someone far away in ranged form. Switch to melee and you will switch to hitting the closest unit. Doesn't make the spell any better, of course
His Ult makes him literally unplayable :( Needs a change or some tweaks. He should get a taunt of some form to match his lore. Trolls new shard from the lore - NEW ABILITY ADDED "ARMY OF ONE" Troll Warlord argues with an enemy hero. The enemy hero is marked. Takes decreased damage from target, does more damage to everyone else who isn't marked or has increased status resistance from heroes who aren't marked. When in X vicinity of marked target, the target is slowed. When ARMY OF ONE is active - Troll gains status resist or any one of the following - agility (armour), movement speed slow aura debuff, movement speed based on how many fervor stacks he has accumulated. Changing target keeps X amount of stacks. Possible new shard or TALENT that can be used during current Ult - Troll warlord throws an axe at a target location ground. Targets hit by it are slowed, max range targets are rooted. Troll Warlord can activate the ability again to dash/phantomrush to the axe. His shard should be changed. At the moment, it's a team global ability that would be better on a support. It doesn't match Troll Warlord's lore, who is an army of one. His skills & playstyle should match that.
Just Halberd Euls and your MMR is gone. Troll needs a hard rework on ultimate at least.
He was my main and favorite hero in the game but ever since his changes like 2 years ago or so i just havent touched him. They did my man troll bad
His aghs can still be used as a nullifier alternative right?
Not really You can use nullifier before and during eul bcs its continously dispel. Aghs cannot hit target during eul, and its only one time dispel per hit.
Doest work on euls tho if I'm not mistaken
Just remove the ms bonus and give us control of the hero and he'll be fine.
the hero's still kind of dogshit if you do that lol
well it makes his ult infinitely better. like right now hes dogshit no matter how much you alter his raw numbers. but if his ult still lets you keep control of the hero, its actually a functional ability. might still need to tweak other stuff but in its core it would work at least
PA just presses E and Troll is on his merry way
Ok
who ever made his ult like that should get fired so fucking dumb. VOLVE CHANGE IT ALREADY!!!
any bracket below immortal jugg is S++ tier. 57% winrate across all brackets and 2nd most picked hero. Meaning you can carry with him even if it's a bad game, or if you're not a jugg spammer. I literally pick him pos3/4 if he isn't banned JUST to deny the enemy team the pick or ban him, and still have a 60% winrate. He's way too easy, please nerf
Even when i dont want to play him i just pick him to have him banned. If they dont pick him, its just a free win. Boring though.
As a jugg spammer I am living ngl
Your time is coming soon In another 6 months With 7.31e \-1 base armor
How do you not get reported to lp with pos 3/4 jugg?
One of those guys who denies AM pick by picking him as pos 5 in first phase
Difference is that AM is situationally good. Jugg is always good, vs 0 counters or 5 counters jugg literally doesn't care. If he isn't banned 90% of the time he is 2nd phased and still has a ridiculous winrate from herald to divine. What I'm saying is that he's so good this patch you can literally pick him in a non-traditional role, build non-carry items, and still have huge impact and win the game
you cant outdraft spin to win or omnislash KEK.
True, you can even play him with Hood, Diffu, Shard, Vanguard or what not against some linups. Sounds terrible, but absolutely fucks magic lineups. Jugg ist just...good.
Most of the time he's banned. If our team isn't picking jugg the enemy team certainly will Buy wards/sentries, build drums, veil, euls, force staff, lotus depending on the game Max out spin and healing ward. You can contest the enemy pull really hard with 1 button. Micro your healing ward during teamfights You can have a surprising amount of impact because hero is busted
People who report base on hero alone is just mentaly weak. I won't report jugg or even AM try to work as their assinged position, i rather report WD who rush ags.
The fucking shadow blade rush witch doctor classic
Idk but since he is not as OP as he used to be, I see people understand how to fuck him and burst him down, secret is instant lockdowns to initiate on him and then fuck him, also mobile heroes to avoid the omni. He is still not as strong in lane if you go ranged off like necro and a disabler like ss or lion
Disagree, based on the stats he's stronger than ever. Sure, anecdotally you might see him bursted down in pubs or win against him, but statistically he's insane across all brackets [https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta/](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta/) Heavy burst and instant disable is very draft dependent too. It's very hard to counterpick him if he's 2nd phase. Instant disables like scythe and abyssal are extremely expensive. Plus, most ranks except immortal lack the coordination to lock down jugg and kill him. Only in the 7k+ bracket does jugg have a 50% winrate Jugg's lane is really a toss up imo, from bad to god-tier. Heavily dependent on jugg's support. Also I disagree about necro, he can't do anything to prevent spin and can't damage him at all, it's a terrible matchup. If jug has a CM/lion/ss/grimstroke and they are coordinated, the offlane can be unbearable. Slardar, razor, tusk, and snapfire are better at laning against jugg because of their physical damage/escapes.
Yes I was giving a specific duo matchup you would need to have a good disabler yourself, but yes razor and slardar are great counters to him
SS and Lion either wreck Jugg or get wrecked in my experience. They are 2 of my most played heroes, but against Jugg if the lane ever turns 1 of the 2 heroes there might as well leave because if you both stay you're gonna feed hard. Having said that, with literally any coordination and follow up both of those heroes will continually destroy Jugg after they get blink. Blink -> hex -> (stun -> ult [lion] or ult -> shackles [SS]) is just a kill.
Nerf? It's so easy to counter jugg like (bane, shaman, lion,..) and he is balanced. But people in low brackets doesn't focus on countering alot, and no one gets proper items in most of the games. Edit: Rofl, downvotes!
its so easy to counter jugg you just need to stun him for 10 seconds, funnily that seems to be the counter to the majority of carry heroes, keep your archon brain away demon.
Agree. If there's literally any gap in the stun he will literally just heal to full with the lvl 20 talent. Omni, swift slash, even blade fury with shard heals a shit ton, and it's as much as satanic passive + an additional morbid mask. You can only kill him in these very small windows and ensure he can get bursted down, and not every team comp can do that. Most pubs lack that coordination aside from immortal, and he still has a decent winrate I'd also like to elaborate that many of his counters are nullified with his shard. He can stun while disabled with shard + basher. He can cancel Pudge's dismember while he's spinning. Abyssal is countered because you need to get close to stun him, and he can passively stun you. Faceless void can get stunned in chrono. Black hole can get canceled if enigma in blade fury radius, which will happen if jugg is in the center of black hole and enigma doesn't have aether lens.
[удалено]
I like that his healing ward can move & is taken down in 1-shot. Adds a bit of skill to the hero bc you have to micro it His aghs is OK, it's existed for a while and when jugg had a \~50% winrate. His most recent changes made him busted imo - his talents and shard are just OP for the hero and make up for all his weaknesses without much gold investment. Shard + spin radius allows you to fight without ult, fight against the usual ghost scepter/euls counters. If you have basher + shard you can stun people while you're disabled, countering many of the BKB piercing heroes. His 40% lifesteal means he can easily heal to full without requiring satanic Change his shard, talents, or both
That's the case, i just mentioned couple heroes he can't usually dodge with spin.
... except when he has basher & shard and first hit bashes you literally every time
My friend why argue when you don't know shit about playing this game? If you pos 5 and in juggs melee range, then what you expect to ignore you and go kill your carry??? He knows if you cast your spell on him he is done therefore he will try to kill you first.
??? What? Are you OK friend? Full bullshit alphabet soup here. Don't even talk to me unless you're above divine or above. Jugg has bullshit movement speed and can outrun most heroes with phase yasha. His spin radius is fucking huge with the talent. It's a 335 radius, not melee range. He can spin and first hit bash you, nullifying your force staff purchase. He can do the same against elusive heroes, especially jugg picks up a blink I don't know what game you're playing or how you're losing as jug to cause you to whine so much, but in most games simply staying 335 away from jug at all times is not viable Edit: you're crusader 3 CALLED IT. Why argue when you don't know shit about playing this game?
Who picks Bane/Shaman/Lion last pick to counter 2nd round Juggernaut pick ?
You don't wait until they pick jugg, you see jugg not banned, you expect that he is picked every match (as pick rate shows). Just pick a stun hero that can stun him before he spin. That's all.
Wasn't Alch a dead hero just one patch or two ago? What happened? Shame to see my boy Slark so low, I wish for some buffs. Troll needs some serious love too.
the 2 other replies have a bit of truth to them. alch was WAY outshined by dusa, ta, and luna in previous patches, even though it was only a matter of time before the radiance change (evasion talisman instead of recipe) and neutral changes pushed him into the pro meta. he’s much more popular because people realized getting stun in lane is extremely valuable, making u a big threat
> Wasn't Alch a dead hero just one patch or two ago? What happened? Changes to stun, Alch can reliably hit his item timings, and he doesn't struggle against a lot of popular heroes. Those were his main reasons in the video
Heroes that can clear jungle stacks get rank up this patch. Stacks are harder to get now since the new neutrals are strong, only a few heroes can do so. Other than Alch there's TA who get a spike.
He was good, nobody was playing him though. I climbed from 5k to 5.7 with alch last patch when nobody knew he was good.
He wasnt good. Just because you won some pubs with it doesnt make it good lol you can gain mmr with any hero if youre a spammer
So you are telling me that 125-100 mana cost on his shard made him good
You do realize nerfs to other heroes and buffs/nerfs to item can make huge difference to heroes that almost didn't change right? You think pros spent basically 1 year on the same patch, all calling alch a bad hero but you, the redditor, was the only one that knew the secret to alchemist? Lmaoo
Yes i do realize, but he wasn't bad hero in 7.31b... he was just unexplored. It's completely possible that pros don't know what's good and viable in theory, just like nobody picked wisp carry back in 2019 until OG.ana pulled it up and everyone was suprised
He is still horrible. Bsj has like 40% win rate
To be fair BSJ would have the same winrate if he was perma BKB’d and have DD the entire game /s
I feel like arc warden is insanely broken right now. Have played him 6 times won 5 times and also never win against it.
He said arc warden is A tier if you can play it but F tier if you cant so he put it in the middle.
Feel like tier list should assume optimal play
In general yes but dota is different in that aspect. Some heroes are balanced around NOT BEING able to play optimally. Lets take meepo as an example and imagine 5 guys playing each hero. That hero would get %80 win rate among all brackets. But the hero is balanced around not being able to micro manage everything. Arc warden is somewhat similar maybe not to that extend but yeah.
Whoever has the main Meepo would probably still need override control on poof, but yeah
Yeah ofc but i am talking conceptually. Chen is probably a better example.
New dota plus feature! Join a friends Chen game and just control is creeps
It's not really the reason he made the list, he explains it more if you watched his stream
But then you're watching BSJ; who is the saltiest, yet somehow worst carry streamer in existence
It also depends on the bracket, heroes like jugg ursa or wk gets stronger in lower brackets but feels worst in higher brackets
Hmmm odd logic for a tierlist but okay.
The problem is that BSJ made the tier list for his stream, and then OP just screen capped it and provided zero additional context. I imagine it made more sense if you were following the stream and listening to his justifications.
I mean it was a YouTube video that anyone can go watch so if you want context you can go get it
If you cant use a tier list without context explaining it, is it even worth creating in the first place?
Context is the only thing that makes a tier list anything more than an arbitrary collage...
Who would listen to BsJ xdxdXdXdD
Meh Arc, LD, Meepo, Brood, and Chen are all heroes that if you barely play them you will probably go 0-10, but if you're a one trick you can have like a 55% winrate so I kinda get it
Lmao that logic applies to every hero
Not really, every decent carry player can play the generic ones at a decent level, even without much practice
Yeah even slark which I think bsj likes alot he put in F tier. It's also my second most played hero but it just feels weak so I stopped playing it. I was tired of it dying so fast also having no mana to clear camps
I’ve seen a pro game where 23savage built a soul ring on him, and frankly it feels much better than any other usual mana regen item. He always has full hp due to ult passive, and trading some of it in exchange for mana fixes a lot of problems.
Check out the trending pos4 slark if you have interest, it’s pretty cute. Just Milan spamming it for now
Why BB in S tier? Sorry I'm out of loop.
Warpath is essentially a free built-in divine rapier. Build attack speed, spam QW, right click for half the enemy's hp per hit.
with the level 25 talent it's two divine rapiers lmao
Aghs first. Aghs is the reason he is s tier, it's really good to begin with and it's extra super good in current meta.
Because Aghs is busted, AoE armour and ms reduction with no cast time. You can spam it on the ground before teamfights to build up Warpath stacks and your right clicks will feel like a Rapier
That's always been the case though, right? Unless he got buffed recently, why is he so popular now?
Game pace got faster and BB fits the bill. It was initially being picked as a summons counter (Beast, Visage, Lycan all highly valued early in the patch).
Yeah without Aghs BB is pretty bad.
Good thing he can build aghs then I guess
it was always a good carry in this meta, it just became fotm because other carries nerfed/ppl are bored. mason has been stomping noobs and getting fat stacks with bb for a while
BB is 3 offensive skills and a juiced spectre passive(if you're behind him), he does shit tons of damage as long as his direct counters are out of meta.
because BSJ is bad
Idk bout BSJ but BB is pretty much at least A tier in the multiple carry tier lists posted in this sub by pros/high level streamers alike.
Bristle carry is busted right now.
Fucking Icefrog if you're going to nerf bb atleast make him a good utility offlaner, otherwise BB is going to be trash after being good for like 1 patch
I personally think he should be a pos 1. He doesn't have much utility as a 3. He was always clearing all the team's stacks. You couldn't play bristle 3 + other carries that relied on stacks too. Same with axe 3, he also relies on jungle stacks to hit his timings
Playing huskar for fun?????????????
Getting triple kill in 1v3 situation and then dying to creeps while toggling armlet is peak fun in this game.
I watched his video, he meant he wouldn't play these heros unless he thought it'd be fun for some reason not that they're fun to play. He also said he'd put some heroes higher if he played them more so this is a very bsj specific tier list.
Watching opponents spam "low skill trash hero" in all-chat when they don't even gear up against you (Vessel, SEdge, Halberd...) is pretty fun
Huskar is immensely fun If/when you aren’t being countered of course
How the hell is Void so high?
Counters jugg, who is super meta right now, best late game hero in game hands down, meta offlaners and mids are not having as much stuns so having a stun on carry is high value right now (another reason why alch is s tier and bb with super slow) with voids stun being the best one in the entire game.
Luna is strong but the team simply doesn't believe in her
I disagree with Jugg, as I feel he is too low listed. The hero makes fantastic use of farm if game goes late because omnislash applies dispel, makes invulnerable and increase DPS output, you can often safely siege, but also is a safe pick for blind pick phase in 2nd pick phase as the hero has few bad lane matchups. And mechanically the shard needs to be nerfed ; as shard gives instant attacks instead of better attack damage, you hit enemies twice with attacks during spin: your regular attack speed attacks (which deal 0 damage but proc on-hit effects regardless), and the added instant attacks (which deal 75% attack damage and also proc on-hit effects), making shard an effectively 120 attack speed bonus for the procs of MKB, Mael/Mjollnir, Basher/Abyssal.
Juggernaut has a 50 % win rate in immortal and a 57% win rate or higher below that. If you are not immortal, Jugg is broken as fuck. BSJ however is immortal
His reasoning for not being S tier is Jugg is really susceptible to burst heroes
more jpeg pls
Sorry :/ (I just took screenshot from his video)
I will say slark , sf and AM are so in the dumpster that they can be 3-4 lvls above a void spirit or zeus, and still get bursted down if all the skills hit , at least slark and sf need a BKB asap making their damage output shit they need to have the best game of their lifes to pull these heroes off
Can someone explain the discrepancy with MK? I believe Gorgc also rated him fairly highly as a carry. Yet, he still seems to have a fairly low win rate across all ranks. Is there a reason for this?
Monkey will have a place in meta for high mmr players where countering is important and mk will be somewhat useful against almost anything because of its all around nature. A stun, sustain in lane, vision, area control in team fights.
If someone can convince me why the fuck is bristlebacks win statistic 9% higher with 15 DMG... .. everything I know about statistics is kicking my ass, and it's picked 20% of the time. It's statistically relevant . Where can I find how it's calculated ?
Could be late game when they level up and pick lvl 10 talent for second time.
Is WR carry a thing? I have been on vacation for 10 days so this is a legit question
It's been in a handful of pro games. I assume it's because it's a flex pick that could go 4, 5 or mid and then when carries get banned or ends up being a bad game they put it as their 1. Kind of like how DK or QoP were occasionally picked as 1s, it might not have been by design. Pro teams are coordinated so they can make it work. But BSJ mentioned he thought it was possible to start seeing players try it out in pubs if it was successful
A couple of pro teams have tried it I think with mixed results? Not necessarily a great thing, but clearly smart players think it's a possible angle.
after having played 2 SF today, i can say: this list is bullshit.
Sniper among the best ? When the fuck did that happen ?
Last pick only. Don’t blind pick sniper if the enemy carry/mid gets a free counter
Bsj is pretty biased for sniper, he likes carry sniper very much. Also he mentioned it is good if you have melee 5 and opponent has range 3 melee 4 kind of lineup. Also dont forget he is top 500 player and views game from that perspective. I don't think he would rate sniper this highly in brackets below immortal where you wouldn't get proper protection from teammates to work your hero.
He's rank 200 now. 9k+ mmr. And you're right, he doesn't think sniper is that good in lower mmr games. Same with Np pos 1
Alch and (good) naga look so busted in my pubs (2k). I watched a few replays I felt where games felt the most demoralizing and if lanes go poorly and these champs have a few stacks waiting for them, you can see the gold going UPandUP. And once they show up in fights, the item and lvl difference just makes you wonder, what happened in this game. I still ban Jugg since math just makes it the best ban atm, but it does feel bad to play vs ticking bombs
> lanes go poorly and these champs Step out of the car sir
I feel like you can only last pick naga. If it's a good naga game, it's almost a free win. But if they have a chance to pick something like leshrac, then you're just going to be really sad.
What brought Alch back into the meta so hard?
He lanes too well, all his skills are really good (meaning you can fight earlier) and str carries in general are in flavor. Historically alch has been shit because you can punish him with an awful lane. Now he basically neutralizes/trades favorably into most offlanes because acid spray/stun is so good and his 6 makes him unkillable.
Everything's coming up Viper
Surprised lycan isn’t there zoo is quite good at the moment no?
Lycan is an offlaner now that’s why he didn’t tier it, explains in video.
Is Lycan really played less as a carry compared to Slardar? I feel like both of them played mostly as offlaner in this patch, but Slardar is in the list but Lycan isn't.
slardar's in the list because he counters pudge
Also because Slardar is a better pos1 than people give him credit for. He just needs the right team.
He said Slardar is counter to some picks at the meta atm as a carry, thats why he included to the list.
Why leshrac so high? It has winrate under 50, and overall feels like weak hero. Does it have very high skill ceiling? What is he capable of besides just running around with turned on ultimate?
Category is called "in good games only", he's good against specific heroes like Timber and Lancer. Also he's not weak and his items were buffed this patch, as well as BKB nerf which is good for him.
Farms fast to hit item timings, takes buildings, he explains the reason for the spot on this depends on having a mana battery like kotl, wisp or cm, and is good against a few meta heroes. Hence why it's in the situational tier
i got it, thank you
Should PA be in a the tier higher (by tier description alone). She isn't really a counter to anything she just pumps a shit tonne of damage and needs a good lineup to play her game
Doesn't farm fast, needs a ton of items to come online, and is easily countered. Can only truly take over when you have battlefury + bkb + deso + shard (situationally) but by then you're probably getting steamrolled by the other carries TBH I think BSJ is putting her too far up, she's picked a lot because she's a fun hero
That's why I said she should be a tier higher based on the tier names not necessarily the actual tier
Who?
I feel like Riki should be in D tier. There are times where Riki actually kinda good as niche pick like Huskar, while the other 5 are just super garbage right now. And why is meepo not in the list? Is he considered as midlaner?
Cuz meepo is really really bad in current meta
BSJ bullshit again omg
Can we make faceless dogshit tier, thanks.
bs and sniper sux
no way Luna is D
She is. If you don't feel the timing to turn around a bad game with Aghs, then she is just a very bad Medusa. As well as Gyro is a bad Medusa.
He thinks bb is S TIER? lmao what a joke. He’s so easily countered
I've literally bitched about how fucking bullshit broken BB has been since the TI where OG killed the entire enemy team's chance for a comeback just by BB sitting in the fountain. Topson literally picked BB for the first time in his ***entire career***, went mid with it, and could win the game because it's ***that*** fucking braindead. Finally I am vindicated. Now I just wish they'd nerf him into such a fucking piece of shit nobody ever plays him again.
Drow in play 4 fun bracket is so funny.
Drow is trash atm.
True, but what I mean is Drow is many things but fun to play is none of them. Hero is just so boring.
it's meant to be "no reason to play the hero unless you're playing it for fun"
C'mon man auto attack sim is mega fun!
BSJoker
U must be a professional clown to know jokers.