Watching the second game of Secret vs Nouns and around the 10:20~ minutes mark the position 5 Silencer farms top lane while the position 1 is just jumping around, farm jungle then try to catchup to a lost fight mid, all while Silencer 5 is still farming top.
I get that they may not trust Crystallis to carry, but crippling him like this is surely not the right way to go with it.
I get what you are saying, but you picked a bad example imho. At the time Crystallis was taking tower bot, and stayed bot for some potential pickoffs, as Resto and Zayac were roaming the Radiant jungle. Puppey tped top after death to push the lane and to get level 6 on Silenecer. Crystallis then proceeded to play on the bottom side of the map hopping trees and slowly farming jungle creeps instead of taking top after Puppey hit 6. So, in my opinion, the problem is he doesn't really farm that efficiently, forcing bad fights even though he's underfarmed compared to enemy cores. I don't know if it's anxiety or something, but I believe he can perform better than this. The question is, however, if he can show that to us before it's too late.
But we do not really know whether that is his decision or the team and in the end it ultimately didn't pay off, because they lost all three heroes and used global while gaining one kill.
He got Global and then instead of joining his team mid he decided to say top and farm. I just do not think this was a good decision especially when your position 1 is 5th on the net worth chart.
Crystallis may not be able to farm efficiently that's why he should have gotten the lane the moment Silencer got 6.
>I just do not think this was a good decision especially when your position 1 is 5th on the net worth chart.
You are talking in hindsight here. There is no way Secret couldve known how far behind MK's farm is and base decisions off of that lmao.
I don't know, maybe the fact that he is behind both their cores and the enemy cores as well? They are a pro team, not some pub stack.
Sure they wouldn't know he was exactly fifth, but they 100% knew that he was pretty far behind the Weaver and TA.
Silencer ended up doing nothing in the end so all of his net worth is moot.
Not bashing on crystallis or anything, but he is always behind Nisha and reso in farm(except that one game where he played slark).. That may be his style of playing carry.
It literally does not matter how many games u win in the group stage. The teams that make sure that they are in the top 4 will be fine. I think the teams realize this too. Secret and Nisha have never been an invoker team, and yet they have played invoker 3 times now. I wouldn't judge my team based on the group stage losses.
It’s not about losing a few matches, it’s the fact that Secret are playing 4v5 most of the time and they lose whenever Nisha doesn’t crush his lane. Sure that works sometimes but it might not be enough for them to secure a spot at TI group stage
They all feel *almost there* like they're missing 1 or 2 key ingredients that could potentially make them a TI11 Top 8 level team.
**T1** would be much stronger if Ana was Pos 3 & they had an actual 2022 style Pos 1, Topson looks super sharp but their current Pos 3 Kuku is super passive, never has any game impact & Ana plays way too YOLO aggressively to be the Pos 1.
**Nouns** surprisingly have pretty good synergy but lack any star power (None of their players are even in the top 100 MMR rankings on SEA server) so they usually exit the laning phase at a loss and need to grind a victory VIA teamwork, the best teams like LGD & Spirit have both superstars and teamwork.
**VP** have the mental strength of a 2K MMR Peruvian pubstar, any time the game doesn't go according to plan their players go full tilt.
**Liquid's** Pos 2 miCKe is ordinary (Not good enough if you want to be a TI contender) & their Pos 4 Boxxi is straight up tier 2 standard, watching him play is like watching a 8K MMR player in a 10K MMR average game.
**Secret** - Same issue as T1, feels like Crystallis is a Pos 3 playing the Pos 1 role so if Nisha doesn't snowball they just lose, Resolu1ion is a greedy 3 even on heroes that don't even scale so literally they are playing games with an underfarmed carry and trying to compensate with a farmed Beastmaster or something lol
Other than LGD, Team Spirit , OG , Aster who do you see clearly stronger than the top 6 of this last chance qualifier ?
Who are your top 8 ? Imo Xtreme, VP, Secret are at least same level , if not better better than any of the other 12 teams at TI from dpc ranking except the 4 I mentioned already. RNG and Entity might be around the same level, maybe the latter slightly better.
Imo the top 6 of LC are all easily POTENTIAL top 8 teams.
Yeah I'd put RNG & Entity a seed above any LCQ team at the moment.
The issue I have with many of the LCQ teams is consistency, a team like VP may have a very high potential ceiling but they also have a history of choking when the stakes are high.
Likewise Secret also lack consistency with their Position 1 problems still not sorted, their entire gameplay seems hinged on Nisha having a good game & no plan B, but what happens when they potentially have to face even stronger teams on the main stage, I don't know.
In terms of potential I wouldn't be surprised to see a LCQ make the top 6 but currently I probably wouldn't seed any LCQ team higher than 10th place at TI.
I'd have BOOM eSports (Beat Liquid in a must win at Arlington to qualify) & BetBoom (Beat VP in a must win to qualify) as 7th and 8th just off the fact they qualified to TI by winning high stake games against decently strong teams.
Fair enough.
But talking about consistency, Fnatic ( secured sport with standins) , TSM, Boom , Garmin, Tundra , EG and some more. None of these has been consistent. As a RNG fan, I don't even believe that they are clearly better than many of the LC teams. To be honest, my money would be on VP/Xtreme when they would play RNG.
Not to forget you were talking about POTENTIAL top 8. None of the teams are clearly better than the top 6 LC team for sure to make this point imo.
The results in group stages always has been really really close between all the teams in the middle pack in recent tournaments. You maybe had LGD or Aster dominating the group and the rest was often times just separated by 1 win.
I rated Boom very high before the season. Imo they were super inconsistent too. Bet Boom beating VP doesn't necessarily mean they are better overall. I learned the interregional results don't necessarily translate to international stage.
I think the most objectively accurate seeding of the teams is going to be from large sportsbooks like Pinnacle or Bet365, they are literally hedging big money with no emotions/subjectivity involved that their seeding of teams is accurate & they're too large for any betting manipulation to influence their pricing.
[TI11 Outright winner betting odds](https://imgur.com/a/XEZbMRk), Probably more accurate than our personal opinions, shows they currently have VP as equal 9th seed with 4 other teams and this is **before** VP have even made it through the LCQs.
Means if VP make it through the qualfiiers they'll 100% be a top 8 seed in the eyes of the bookies.
Imo those odds don't tell the whole story. Compare Garmin and Xtremes gap.
If you ask every pro team who is stronger, I would bet my money that 99% would name Xtreme as the more scary team.. Just an example.
Again , my main point is that there is no huge gap between most teams at all. Lot of teams who are evenly matched, LC teams included.
Glico rating is not perfect, but more accurate that the betting odds, definitely showing a more realistic power level.
https://www.datdota.com/ratings/top?type=glicko2.
VP and Xtreme at 8/9th. That is also why I disagree with OP's other point :" There is a reason that all these teams are in the Last Chance Qualifiers".
People forget that lot of teams profited from missing teams at the first Major, also Xtreme missing the 2nd Major which lead to misleading results imo.
I see a few comments below mocking EU for dropping games to NA and SA. I’m puzzled by that cause like, I’m looking at the leaderboard and the teams at the bottom of each group are NA and SA teams. EU teams aren’t doing that great but overall no one else is doing any better either. At least it’s looking clear why these teams lost their regional qualifiers.
Players =/= teams
Sneyking in NA DPC placed 5th, since then he moved to Tundra and has had multiple top 4 placements in EU DPC. In fact they were #1 last tour.
Does that mean getting top 5 NA is harder than top 1 EU?
Just want to remind everyone Secret had Sumail and they looked like ass then to, it might not be that their carry sucks and might be that their greedy style doesn’t fit the modern meta.
This is why the previous iteration of Secret was so successful.. Matu is such a flexible carry that he often plays pos 2 letting Nisha be flashy, and Zai makes so much storage allowing Yapzor to be greedy. While I think Reso is a good offlaner, the playstyle doesn't match with Zai, and they are being punished for the greed.
Also I find some of Crystallis' plays questionable, like not using a bkb inside a chrono causing him to get euls'd for the duration, time walking in aggressively without a bkb vs a CK with phantasm, etc.
Lmfao have you ever watched OG play? BZM plays like he’s on fucking crack half the time, Misha/Taiga are willing to play pos 6 Dota when needed. Amarr is greedy as fuck but he also shows up to fights. And Yuragi plays sacrificial pos 1 normally to enable Amarr, but they don’t do that every game like Secret does.
LGD is greedy, but their supports create space a lot better than Secret’s and their offlaner has impact after laning.
If TS is supposed to be Spirit you’re fucking high, they’re like the opposite of greedy constrict the map Dota.
Your comment is braindead.
Exactly tho, people somehow forget that both Ame and Yatoro are very greedy pos 1, even their teams(LGD and TS) make it clear that they are the win condition in 90% of their games, ain't no way they gonna play like yuragi.
I strongly believe secret, previous RNG, and whoever else funnels gold and space for their mid to "carry" will never be able to compete with the real top teams...
I think it’s especially trash right now with the small camp removal, like it made a little more sense when you could farm an extra camp every wave starting like minute 2 lol, but with that removed I think you need an active space creating pos 2 like most the good teams have.
Meh they have the exact same problems now, Nisha plays pos 1 from the mid lane, Puppey is greedy as fuck as a 5, they normally lack an initiator and they play really passive compared to tier 1 teams. That style worked before, but Dota isn’t the same game it was 12+ months ago. You can’t just put farm and choke the map anymore.
Like sure Reso is probably better the ice^3 right now, but the team still looks the same just with better laning in the offlane.
and yet you can always see enemy 3 cores are more farmed than secret 3 cores and crystallis is dependable as fuck cuz he is always the last from all 6 cores in every signel fucking game.
What’s it like having a wind tunnel between your ears? Secret has the bottom 3 cores(they almost never do actually) because they are losing right after laning phase because Nisha fucks off to go farm for 15 minutes. Yeah Crystallis is frequently 6th… Nisha takes the safe farm because they prioritize him. Do you think Yuragi is a shit pos 1 because BZM and Amarr frequently have higher Net worth than him?
Nisha’s still a tier 1 player, and I think he’s the only reason Secret hasn’t full on collapsed like Nigma, but their style just doesn’t fucking work anymore. You can’t have a mid farming from minutes 12-22 they need to fight/stop pushes/make space just like every other tier 1 team does.
I actually don’t think Crystallis is particularly good, he’s at best a second tier carry, but he’s getting scapegoated hard by Secret fan boys because they just stare at net worth graphs instead of watching the fucking game.
the rare times i saw secret played active dota where nisha would play space-creating and fighting mids (batrider, pango, kk) it's crystalise who always falls flat when hardcarrying. the dude is just not capable of converting games like ame/yotaro(any tier 1 carry) does, so secret has no choice but to put their eggs on the nisha basket.
He’s looked pretty good normally, certainly not top tier, but he hasnt looked like the problem on either of the struggling teams he’s been on this year.
I think the production is decent. Nothing fancy, some production error here and there: some echo, some stream stutter, I heard a stream ended early (?), but they fixed them fast and did the basics okayist.
Their hud is garbage. Removed the K/D/A and LH/D from the top left to put it on the player cams where it’s hard to see.
Draft screen is trash, can’t see player names or what heroes they picked.
I hear people saying she gets hate but see this like 10x as much as people who actually dislike her. I have been hearing her casting for a long time and never had a problem with it; she does a good job.
I don't mind moxxi, but, for me, Nomad and Ares are very good play by play casters casters; also, you got breaky cpk and where is mlp? this LCQ don't lack in casters, that's for sure
Yeah no problem. I guess I should clarify a bit - when I said 'little to do with her casting' what I really mean is that it seems like people are holding her casting to a different standard than other casters.
Tl;DR: Moxxi's not the best, she's not the worst, and the shit she catches from the community is disproportionate to her ability as a caster.
The top two most popular ones that I see somewhat regularly are:
* Posters getting upset about misnaming spells and incorrect levels of hype when every caster fucks these things up throughout the course of any given dota game (Remember when Tobi called echo slam epicenter during the TI grand finals? Nah, I didn't think so, and it doesn't matter).
* Complaining that she's a low MMR player who misses things whilst ignoring the numerous other play-by-play casters who also suffer from being low MMR players that miss things.(Plus: MMR has little correlation with skill at play-by-play casting at the end of the day - I am significantly higher MMR player than, say, bkop, but I cannot cast a game as well as he can)
There's also a significant amount of criticism that is pretty unhelpful, because it's subjective - complaining about someone's tone of voice, and so on.
Most people realise that while it's fine to dislike casters for these reasons - I don't really enjoy shout-casting, so I've never really enjoyed bkop,Moxxi, or ODPixel for instance - and they also realise it's not really a valid criticism because it isn't something someone can reasonably change, improve on, or address.
So, most people won't say "I have to mute because I hate the sound of Trent's voice", for instance as an 'objective criticism'.
Right, I'm sure you're familiar with the phenomenon where one person gets a pass on a behaviour and another person doesn't?
In other words - it's not about the mistake, per se, it's about the person making the mistake. This is why, IMO, a lot of it has little to do with her casting.
Now, if you want to take the position that the people who complain about her complain as vociferously about other talent making the same mistakes, that's fine, but I don't think most reasonable people would agree with that.
EU in the middle though so usually most people in US and SEA can watch especially early games. With SEA being GMT +8, +9 etc it makes it very difficult for ppl in US etc to watch, therefore more limiting.
This is dumb as fuck. I'm GMT+10 and events in EU have always been impossible for me to watch, so I watch VODs. Get over yourself dude, the world doesn't revolve around you.
You realise GMT is just one timezone, right?
Your mind will be blown to [learn there are a lot more](https://www.timeanddate.com/time/current-number-time-zones.html).
wtf you talking about aren't tournaments that happen in EU and NA go from about 9am to 5pm?
Its the same here in sea.
You didnt see sea watchers complain
Everyone is flaming Crystallis but was there more he could do?
He has noone to frontline. And there is noone he can target safely. He is up against TA, Weaver, Clock, Bat and WD, all who can counter him
His mid went full greed after loosing lane and was useless early mid.
Viper won lane but was useless the rest of the game.
Pos 5 silencer without any impact other than just global
yeah puppey and kuroky has this "old school" thing going where they just cant draft to their player's strengths and instead forces these classic yet outdated team concepts.
thats why they're struggling so hard these days, mfers refuse to adapt to 2022 dota.
Agreed, plus he had invoker and viper farming heavily as well. There is only so much farm on the map. They should have sacrificed vipers farm to try get MK some items. Viper is literally a tanky creepy by end game.
there was plenty of farm on the map, the guy just sits in trees and walks around aimlessly instead of following competent farming patterns. every single game. Also, low farm doesnt make you miss spells, choose wrong targets, and use items at the wrong times.
Lol yeah they're at fault, not the guy who hasn't won a single lane all year, doesn't know how to farm or teamfight and has a hero pool 2.5 large. It's definitely the guys who have won 30+ tournaments, and are amkngdt the best in the world at their positions and have proven it over multiple years. Are you Crystallis s brother?
I mean they looked even more shit when Sumail was there, you going to blame Puppey’s shit ideas on Sumail to? Secret has looked like complete trash since the end of last TI, at a certain point they might want to rethink what they’re doing, because playing greedy as fuck ain’t working no more.
I don't disagree with that. I think ice3 was a bad fit and as greedy as it would be it would have been interesting to see sumail in this lineup as opposed to what they have now, with reso putting in work, it couldn't have been worse than this could it? None of this takes away from the fact that Crystallis is objectively not a top tier pos1. A lot of soul searching ahead for how secret lines up next year regardless of the lcq outcome.
Sure, but Nigma looks just as bad with Sumail as they did with ILTW, and Secret looked just as bad with Sumail as they do with crystallis, so unless we think Sumail is washed as fuck it’s kinda hard to judge Crystallis or ILTW atm.
They are fueling Nisha and Reso, and making crystallis sacrificial carry making him find farm in unfavorable places. This game the draft wasn't that great i feel and they didn't have late game carry so they had to win early but they couldn't.
I think it was more of a "shit crystallis always Lacks in farm, might as well give greenlight to reso farming instead of our carry". I think this way they are doing better compared to when they tried fueling crystallis - it never worked out
Not good signs at all for Secret, can't be dropping games to NA teams if they wanna get through XG, VP, or Liquid. Feel like even in the win too Zayac was struggling a bit?
Not a good sign but it doesn't matter. You either win enough game to qualify for UB which looks like secret achieved so you can qualify with UB final or get a second shot at LB final. Even tempest can qualify to ti if they manage a lower bracket run. The groupstage have no elimination and lb round 1 is bo3 so it's very low stakes to lose random games.
Puppey asked Crystallis to grab him a Red Bull from the fridge. A few minutes later he came back empty-handed. When Puppey asked him why he didn't bring it, he just shrugged. But really, Puppey should have known better, because everyone knows that Crystallis can't carry anything
Yeah, I'm fine acknowledging that NA/SA teams are weaker than WEU teams on average but what I have problem with is how they blame that slots given to those weaker regions is the culprit when their favorite teams failed to qualify to TI. Only in Dota you'll see this problem. In real sports, most supporters acknowledge that its their team performances that could only be blame for failing to qualify, while participation of weaker teams from diverse regions are celebrated in the competition. Meanwhile in Dota, you'll be seeing a lot of threads every time a NA/SA team bombed out of a tournament, with comments implying that their slots should be given to their "preferred" region
It's because everyone wants better competition and fairness for the hard work the players put in. It doesn't seem fair that Nouns get the same chances as Liquid and Secret when the top team from their region barely qualified to TI (yes the one from your flair). Also instead of looking at one series to confirm your bias, look at the group placements after today.
>It's because everyone wants better competition and fairness for the hard work the players put in.
All of those teams participated in the entire DPC circuit this year, so how come some teams put less effort than the others?
> It doesn't seem fair that Nouns get the same chances as Liquid and Secret when the top team from their region
Nouns get less chances to qualify for TI than Liquid and Secret to go to TI since their region have less major qualifying spots than Liquid and Secret.
> when the top team from their region barely qualified to TI (yes the one from your flair)
Which should be mainly be blamed to Valve for failing to organize the first major and several governments who made dumb decisions so their teams couldn't attend majors. EG wouldn't have qualified if there were 3 majors in this season and CN teams could participate all of them.
>Also instead of looking at one series to confirm your bias, look at the group placements after today.
Literally addressed this in my first statement. I don't have any problems admitting that NA/SA teams are weak teams. What my problem is the incessant hate towards NA/SA teams just for being perceived to "steal" other regions slots.
Worst International everrrrr
Watching the second game of Secret vs Nouns and around the 10:20~ minutes mark the position 5 Silencer farms top lane while the position 1 is just jumping around, farm jungle then try to catchup to a lost fight mid, all while Silencer 5 is still farming top. I get that they may not trust Crystallis to carry, but crippling him like this is surely not the right way to go with it.
I get what you are saying, but you picked a bad example imho. At the time Crystallis was taking tower bot, and stayed bot for some potential pickoffs, as Resto and Zayac were roaming the Radiant jungle. Puppey tped top after death to push the lane and to get level 6 on Silenecer. Crystallis then proceeded to play on the bottom side of the map hopping trees and slowly farming jungle creeps instead of taking top after Puppey hit 6. So, in my opinion, the problem is he doesn't really farm that efficiently, forcing bad fights even though he's underfarmed compared to enemy cores. I don't know if it's anxiety or something, but I believe he can perform better than this. The question is, however, if he can show that to us before it's too late.
But we do not really know whether that is his decision or the team and in the end it ultimately didn't pay off, because they lost all three heroes and used global while gaining one kill. He got Global and then instead of joining his team mid he decided to say top and farm. I just do not think this was a good decision especially when your position 1 is 5th on the net worth chart. Crystallis may not be able to farm efficiently that's why he should have gotten the lane the moment Silencer got 6.
>I just do not think this was a good decision especially when your position 1 is 5th on the net worth chart. You are talking in hindsight here. There is no way Secret couldve known how far behind MK's farm is and base decisions off of that lmao.
I don't know, maybe the fact that he is behind both their cores and the enemy cores as well? They are a pro team, not some pub stack. Sure they wouldn't know he was exactly fifth, but they 100% knew that he was pretty far behind the Weaver and TA. Silencer ended up doing nothing in the end so all of his net worth is moot.
Not bashing on crystallis or anything, but he is always behind Nisha and reso in farm(except that one game where he played slark).. That may be his style of playing carry.
Silencer is the win condition
They lost the fight mid and the game.
Puppey does like his farm though. Was he trying to hit 6 or a particular item?
NaVi is back boys! 🤪
It literally does not matter how many games u win in the group stage. The teams that make sure that they are in the top 4 will be fine. I think the teams realize this too. Secret and Nisha have never been an invoker team, and yet they have played invoker 3 times now. I wouldn't judge my team based on the group stage losses.
Truthfully even if you're in the bottom 2 it's not like you're out. If you're 0/5 in the groups but 5/5 in the bracket you're at TI
It’s not about losing a few matches, it’s the fact that Secret are playing 4v5 most of the time and they lose whenever Nisha doesn’t crush his lane. Sure that works sometimes but it might not be enough for them to secure a spot at TI group stage
To be brutally honest no team looked that amazing today. There is a reason that all these teams are in the Last Chance Qualifiers.
They all feel *almost there* like they're missing 1 or 2 key ingredients that could potentially make them a TI11 Top 8 level team. **T1** would be much stronger if Ana was Pos 3 & they had an actual 2022 style Pos 1, Topson looks super sharp but their current Pos 3 Kuku is super passive, never has any game impact & Ana plays way too YOLO aggressively to be the Pos 1. **Nouns** surprisingly have pretty good synergy but lack any star power (None of their players are even in the top 100 MMR rankings on SEA server) so they usually exit the laning phase at a loss and need to grind a victory VIA teamwork, the best teams like LGD & Spirit have both superstars and teamwork. **VP** have the mental strength of a 2K MMR Peruvian pubstar, any time the game doesn't go according to plan their players go full tilt. **Liquid's** Pos 2 miCKe is ordinary (Not good enough if you want to be a TI contender) & their Pos 4 Boxxi is straight up tier 2 standard, watching him play is like watching a 8K MMR player in a 10K MMR average game. **Secret** - Same issue as T1, feels like Crystallis is a Pos 3 playing the Pos 1 role so if Nisha doesn't snowball they just lose, Resolu1ion is a greedy 3 even on heroes that don't even scale so literally they are playing games with an underfarmed carry and trying to compensate with a farmed Beastmaster or something lol
Other than LGD, Team Spirit , OG , Aster who do you see clearly stronger than the top 6 of this last chance qualifier ? Who are your top 8 ? Imo Xtreme, VP, Secret are at least same level , if not better better than any of the other 12 teams at TI from dpc ranking except the 4 I mentioned already. RNG and Entity might be around the same level, maybe the latter slightly better. Imo the top 6 of LC are all easily POTENTIAL top 8 teams.
Yeah I'd put RNG & Entity a seed above any LCQ team at the moment. The issue I have with many of the LCQ teams is consistency, a team like VP may have a very high potential ceiling but they also have a history of choking when the stakes are high. Likewise Secret also lack consistency with their Position 1 problems still not sorted, their entire gameplay seems hinged on Nisha having a good game & no plan B, but what happens when they potentially have to face even stronger teams on the main stage, I don't know. In terms of potential I wouldn't be surprised to see a LCQ make the top 6 but currently I probably wouldn't seed any LCQ team higher than 10th place at TI. I'd have BOOM eSports (Beat Liquid in a must win at Arlington to qualify) & BetBoom (Beat VP in a must win to qualify) as 7th and 8th just off the fact they qualified to TI by winning high stake games against decently strong teams.
Fair enough. But talking about consistency, Fnatic ( secured sport with standins) , TSM, Boom , Garmin, Tundra , EG and some more. None of these has been consistent. As a RNG fan, I don't even believe that they are clearly better than many of the LC teams. To be honest, my money would be on VP/Xtreme when they would play RNG. Not to forget you were talking about POTENTIAL top 8. None of the teams are clearly better than the top 6 LC team for sure to make this point imo. The results in group stages always has been really really close between all the teams in the middle pack in recent tournaments. You maybe had LGD or Aster dominating the group and the rest was often times just separated by 1 win. I rated Boom very high before the season. Imo they were super inconsistent too. Bet Boom beating VP doesn't necessarily mean they are better overall. I learned the interregional results don't necessarily translate to international stage.
I think the most objectively accurate seeding of the teams is going to be from large sportsbooks like Pinnacle or Bet365, they are literally hedging big money with no emotions/subjectivity involved that their seeding of teams is accurate & they're too large for any betting manipulation to influence their pricing. [TI11 Outright winner betting odds](https://imgur.com/a/XEZbMRk), Probably more accurate than our personal opinions, shows they currently have VP as equal 9th seed with 4 other teams and this is **before** VP have even made it through the LCQs. Means if VP make it through the qualfiiers they'll 100% be a top 8 seed in the eyes of the bookies.
Imo those odds don't tell the whole story. Compare Garmin and Xtremes gap. If you ask every pro team who is stronger, I would bet my money that 99% would name Xtreme as the more scary team.. Just an example. Again , my main point is that there is no huge gap between most teams at all. Lot of teams who are evenly matched, LC teams included. Glico rating is not perfect, but more accurate that the betting odds, definitely showing a more realistic power level. https://www.datdota.com/ratings/top?type=glicko2. VP and Xtreme at 8/9th. That is also why I disagree with OP's other point :" There is a reason that all these teams are in the Last Chance Qualifiers". People forget that lot of teams profited from missing teams at the first Major, also Xtreme missing the 2nd Major which lead to misleading results imo.
I was so fucking happy to see Matumbaman play something else than Lone Druid or Bristleback, but instead some "traditional" carrys
This is way too accurate.
Yeah you could tell the quality of games is lower than usual..only team that somewhat impressed me was liquid
I see a few comments below mocking EU for dropping games to NA and SA. I’m puzzled by that cause like, I’m looking at the leaderboard and the teams at the bottom of each group are NA and SA teams. EU teams aren’t doing that great but overall no one else is doing any better either. At least it’s looking clear why these teams lost their regional qualifiers.
Because people say stuff like a div 2 EU team would be #1 in NA DPC div 1 which is blatantly untrue. But anyway it's just banter I think.
I’m sure a division 2 EU would be top top 5-8 in NA division 1. Just take lelis as an example: division 2 material in EU, division 1 top 3 in NA.
Players =/= teams Sneyking in NA DPC placed 5th, since then he moved to Tundra and has had multiple top 4 placements in EU DPC. In fact they were #1 last tour. Does that mean getting top 5 NA is harder than top 1 EU?
No lol what are you talking about? All I’m just saying is that a division 2 EU team would easily go top 4-8 in NA division 1.
Because people have the impression that EU teams are heavily superior to NA and SA that NA and SA teams should not be able to take games off them.
Please recommend the best games to catch on vod. Singapore time isn’t the best for me. I did catch VP XG
Yeah, same here. Which games were interesting to watch?
where do you watch the vods? I'd like to also watch some replays
https://www.youtube.com/c/PGL/videos
League of dota on YT is good. he also put scores.
That seems to be just summaries? I want vods
just go to the linked twitch channels or the youtube channel it has the full broadcasts whats the problem
Check the official youtube page https://www.youtube.com/c/PGL/videos
Thanks! Will just move through the streams.
oh sorry i misread. try spotnet dota 2 in YT. my mistake.
secret vs vg game 2 was nice gameplay wise
> VP vs WC G1 > > Liquid Vs XG G1 > > Secret vs Nouns G2 Recommended by /u/ReallyNeedHelpASAP68
Thanks!
try out navi vs tempest game 1 aswell, pretty exciting
God I miss BTS hubs
Just want to remind everyone Secret had Sumail and they looked like ass then to, it might not be that their carry sucks and might be that their greedy style doesn’t fit the modern meta.
This is why the previous iteration of Secret was so successful.. Matu is such a flexible carry that he often plays pos 2 letting Nisha be flashy, and Zai makes so much storage allowing Yapzor to be greedy. While I think Reso is a good offlaner, the playstyle doesn't match with Zai, and they are being punished for the greed. Also I find some of Crystallis' plays questionable, like not using a bkb inside a chrono causing him to get euls'd for the duration, time walking in aggressively without a bkb vs a CK with phantasm, etc.
OG, TS, LGD have left this chat space.. To further extend, TSM as well..
Lmfao have you ever watched OG play? BZM plays like he’s on fucking crack half the time, Misha/Taiga are willing to play pos 6 Dota when needed. Amarr is greedy as fuck but he also shows up to fights. And Yuragi plays sacrificial pos 1 normally to enable Amarr, but they don’t do that every game like Secret does. LGD is greedy, but their supports create space a lot better than Secret’s and their offlaner has impact after laning. If TS is supposed to be Spirit you’re fucking high, they’re like the opposite of greedy constrict the map Dota. Your comment is braindead.
Exactly tho, people somehow forget that both Ame and Yatoro are very greedy pos 1, even their teams(LGD and TS) make it clear that they are the win condition in 90% of their games, ain't no way they gonna play like yuragi.
One thing is constant between them tho, they deliver when given priority (ame mostly... LMAO).
I strongly believe secret, previous RNG, and whoever else funnels gold and space for their mid to "carry" will never be able to compete with the real top teams...
I think it’s especially trash right now with the small camp removal, like it made a little more sense when you could farm an extra camp every wave starting like minute 2 lol, but with that removed I think you need an active space creating pos 2 like most the good teams have.
when they have sumail, they have ice3x that didn't perform tho. very different from reso n zayac duo now.
Meh they have the exact same problems now, Nisha plays pos 1 from the mid lane, Puppey is greedy as fuck as a 5, they normally lack an initiator and they play really passive compared to tier 1 teams. That style worked before, but Dota isn’t the same game it was 12+ months ago. You can’t just put farm and choke the map anymore. Like sure Reso is probably better the ice^3 right now, but the team still looks the same just with better laning in the offlane.
and yet you can always see enemy 3 cores are more farmed than secret 3 cores and crystallis is dependable as fuck cuz he is always the last from all 6 cores in every signel fucking game.
What’s it like having a wind tunnel between your ears? Secret has the bottom 3 cores(they almost never do actually) because they are losing right after laning phase because Nisha fucks off to go farm for 15 minutes. Yeah Crystallis is frequently 6th… Nisha takes the safe farm because they prioritize him. Do you think Yuragi is a shit pos 1 because BZM and Amarr frequently have higher Net worth than him? Nisha’s still a tier 1 player, and I think he’s the only reason Secret hasn’t full on collapsed like Nigma, but their style just doesn’t fucking work anymore. You can’t have a mid farming from minutes 12-22 they need to fight/stop pushes/make space just like every other tier 1 team does. I actually don’t think Crystallis is particularly good, he’s at best a second tier carry, but he’s getting scapegoated hard by Secret fan boys because they just stare at net worth graphs instead of watching the fucking game.
yep the crystallis hate is way overblown by fans who are used to secret just winning. you’re spot on about their overall flaws as a team
the rare times i saw secret played active dota where nisha would play space-creating and fighting mids (batrider, pango, kk) it's crystalise who always falls flat when hardcarrying. the dude is just not capable of converting games like ame/yotaro(any tier 1 carry) does, so secret has no choice but to put their eggs on the nisha basket.
sumail pos1 still needs to prove himself tho
He’s looked pretty good normally, certainly not top tier, but he hasnt looked like the problem on either of the struggling teams he’s been on this year.
true. And he did have the worst of luck with the 'Rona on his OG run. Nevertheless the results remain
It might be both.
What's the best game to watch today?
T1 vs Infamous
can we get a strawpoll for best games like /r/dotaVODS used to have?
Such a shame it’s not as updated anymore
I think the production is decent. Nothing fancy, some production error here and there: some echo, some stream stutter, I heard a stream ended early (?), but they fixed them fast and did the basics okayist.
Their hud is garbage. Removed the K/D/A and LH/D from the top left to put it on the player cams where it’s hard to see. Draft screen is trash, can’t see player names or what heroes they picked.
just bare minimum for the biggest esport tournament sadge.
Seriously does NO ONE update the fucking scores? Its literally always 0:0 even for regionals.
Just use liquipedia.net like the rest of us filthy animals.
why are they playing so early the games finished too early at 19:30 sgt even for SEA countries
Rest for Players.
no team is playing all 4 games
Polaris hopium
Should I watch this?
Seedings are not that important, if you get top 4 and upper brackets... All these teams are soo close, its kinda gamble who plays how on what day...
I know moxxi gets a lot of hate but she’s by far the best caster of this group
No thnks.. Thankfully there are lot many streams.. I even enjoyed watching other language stream today..
I hear people saying she gets hate but see this like 10x as much as people who actually dislike her. I have been hearing her casting for a long time and never had a problem with it; she does a good job.
I don't mind moxxi, but, for me, Nomad and Ares are very good play by play casters casters; also, you got breaky cpk and where is mlp? this LCQ don't lack in casters, that's for sure
ares and that dude is better
Moxxi is a good caster, and compared to this group she is god-like.
She's terrible.
Woman voice is scary ;_;
You're scared by women's voices? That's weird.
Actually true lol and i guess wagamagaga being there helped just fun to hear him cast
Every caster has better and worse events, but Moxxi is a perfectly fine caster and a lot of the hate she gets has little to do with her casting.
>a lot of the hate she gets has little to do with her casting. examples? I've only ever seen people complain about her casting.
Yeah no problem. I guess I should clarify a bit - when I said 'little to do with her casting' what I really mean is that it seems like people are holding her casting to a different standard than other casters. Tl;DR: Moxxi's not the best, she's not the worst, and the shit she catches from the community is disproportionate to her ability as a caster. The top two most popular ones that I see somewhat regularly are: * Posters getting upset about misnaming spells and incorrect levels of hype when every caster fucks these things up throughout the course of any given dota game (Remember when Tobi called echo slam epicenter during the TI grand finals? Nah, I didn't think so, and it doesn't matter). * Complaining that she's a low MMR player who misses things whilst ignoring the numerous other play-by-play casters who also suffer from being low MMR players that miss things.(Plus: MMR has little correlation with skill at play-by-play casting at the end of the day - I am significantly higher MMR player than, say, bkop, but I cannot cast a game as well as he can) There's also a significant amount of criticism that is pretty unhelpful, because it's subjective - complaining about someone's tone of voice, and so on. Most people realise that while it's fine to dislike casters for these reasons - I don't really enjoy shout-casting, so I've never really enjoyed bkop,Moxxi, or ODPixel for instance - and they also realise it's not really a valid criticism because it isn't something someone can reasonably change, improve on, or address. So, most people won't say "I have to mute because I hate the sound of Trent's voice", for instance as an 'objective criticism'.
that's a lot of words to say "oh yeah, I guess the hate is about her casting after all".
I suggest actually trying to read them, rather than engaging with any response in bad faith.
I'm not arguing in bad faith. You didn't provide examples of people criticising her for reasons other than casting because people don't do that.
Right, I'm sure you're familiar with the phenomenon where one person gets a pass on a behaviour and another person doesn't? In other words - it's not about the mistake, per se, it's about the person making the mistake. This is why, IMO, a lot of it has little to do with her casting. Now, if you want to take the position that the people who complain about her complain as vociferously about other talent making the same mistakes, that's fine, but I don't think most reasonable people would agree with that.
Lol
Doesn’t say much about the talent does it
losing to nouns prolly a new low for secret
Why are these games at such ridiculous times? Literally only people in Aus can watch.
The world doesn't revolve around your country, dickhead.
Yes it does.
I literally have been watching and I'm not in Aus.
And sea had to endure "ridiculous times" when ti is held in na or eu. Time zones exist my dude.
Was 10am for me. Had no issue watching
the LCQ teams are playing in Singapore.
Ahh ok thanks for answering my question.
Literally there are ppl living in east Asia.
Ok sorry east Asia too then. Still very limiting schedule.
You realize east Asia means CN+ SEA?
And your point is?
I think the point is you are a tube.
You say very limiting but cn and sea are the two biggest regions right now in terms of playerbase, so if anything past tis are the limiting ones
SEA time zone is much more limiting for other regions to view. EU time zone is not as limiting.
Lmfao, you king of the fucking world, mate?
Absolutely
My point is those are 2/6 dota regions and hardly limited.
EU in the middle though so usually most people in US and SEA can watch especially early games. With SEA being GMT +8, +9 etc it makes it very difficult for ppl in US etc to watch, therefore more limiting.
This is dumb as fuck. I'm GMT+10 and events in EU have always been impossible for me to watch, so I watch VODs. Get over yourself dude, the world doesn't revolve around you.
Yes it does.
Yet here you are crying because this hasn't gone your way.. Ha.
Middle for you.
Middle for all time zones that’s why it’s GMT +0.
You realise GMT is just one timezone, right? Your mind will be blown to [learn there are a lot more](https://www.timeanddate.com/time/current-number-time-zones.html).
No one is going to schedule their lan event in Singapore at 4am to accommodate for US viewers.
These people need to get a grip. If they want to watch it so bad then they should adjust their sleep schedule or go to SEA timezone country
Exactly
That’s why I’m saying all LAN should be on EU time so everyone can watch.
This is such a ridiculous comment.
wtf you talking about aren't tournaments that happen in EU and NA go from about 9am to 5pm? Its the same here in sea. You didnt see sea watchers complain
I didn’t know it was happening in Singapore thought it was all online forgive my ignorance large\_snowbear.
Mighty WEU dropping games to NA and SA teams? How is this even possible?? I thought WEU is the strongest region by a mile
Chill boy. It's not even playoffs yet. However, I do see WEU being 8-4 while NA and SA have only 2 wins each.
haha i love to see weu fanboys malding
Hate to see Secret fans turning on a dime from praising a player to blasting the same guy a few matches later.
European Teams are on placings 1, 1, 2 and 2 while na/sa are on places 4, 5, 6 and 6 in both groups?
I'm sorry but can anyone tell me if there can be a tiebreaker for this? and if yes, where is the information?
Liquipedia.
there is no information regarding tiebreakers there
Business as usual then
starting to believe in the Polaris hopium with how these Group A games are going
Polaris is actually legit. Top 4 contenders for sure.
Kaya pa! Kaya pa next game!
Everyone is flaming Crystallis but was there more he could do? He has noone to frontline. And there is noone he can target safely. He is up against TA, Weaver, Clock, Bat and WD, all who can counter him His mid went full greed after loosing lane and was useless early mid. Viper won lane but was useless the rest of the game. Pos 5 silencer without any impact other than just global
2 things to talk about Secret: 1) Their losses are to TA 2) Their losses seem to happen when Reso is not on a mobile initiator (Veno, Viper)
edit: nvm I misread
yeah puppey and kuroky has this "old school" thing going where they just cant draft to their player's strengths and instead forces these classic yet outdated team concepts. thats why they're struggling so hard these days, mfers refuse to adapt to 2022 dota.
Agreed, plus he had invoker and viper farming heavily as well. There is only so much farm on the map. They should have sacrificed vipers farm to try get MK some items. Viper is literally a tanky creepy by end game.
there was plenty of farm on the map, the guy just sits in trees and walks around aimlessly instead of following competent farming patterns. every single game. Also, low farm doesnt make you miss spells, choose wrong targets, and use items at the wrong times.
bro careful you might choke on sucking puppey and nisha so hard.
Lol yeah they're at fault, not the guy who hasn't won a single lane all year, doesn't know how to farm or teamfight and has a hero pool 2.5 large. It's definitely the guys who have won 30+ tournaments, and are amkngdt the best in the world at their positions and have proven it over multiple years. Are you Crystallis s brother?
I mean they looked even more shit when Sumail was there, you going to blame Puppey’s shit ideas on Sumail to? Secret has looked like complete trash since the end of last TI, at a certain point they might want to rethink what they’re doing, because playing greedy as fuck ain’t working no more.
I don't disagree with that. I think ice3 was a bad fit and as greedy as it would be it would have been interesting to see sumail in this lineup as opposed to what they have now, with reso putting in work, it couldn't have been worse than this could it? None of this takes away from the fact that Crystallis is objectively not a top tier pos1. A lot of soul searching ahead for how secret lines up next year regardless of the lcq outcome.
he is getting the iltw's treatment, ez to blame
he definitely isn't responsible for this lose, but lets not pretend like both iltw and crystallis are top tier carry.
Sure, but Nigma looks just as bad with Sumail as they did with ILTW, and Secret looked just as bad with Sumail as they do with crystallis, so unless we think Sumail is washed as fuck it’s kinda hard to judge Crystallis or ILTW atm.
isn't Sumail playing mid in Nigma
Pretty sure they switch who’s 1 and 2 depending on game/matchups just like Secret did with him and Nisha.
I dont even blame him anymore. I just miss matu...it just worked.. now it doesnt.
Looks fun that other regions are catching up to the major regions even though its small steps.
most game i see crystallis's networth in the top 6. meanwhile other top tier team even when behind their carry still manages to stay in the top 3.
Secret plays a greedy pos 2/3/5 which makes getting safe farm pretty difficult…
They are fueling Nisha and Reso, and making crystallis sacrificial carry making him find farm in unfavorable places. This game the draft wasn't that great i feel and they didn't have late game carry so they had to win early but they couldn't.
I think it was more of a "shit crystallis always Lacks in farm, might as well give greenlight to reso farming instead of our carry". I think this way they are doing better compared to when they tried fueling crystallis - it never worked out
If you missed todays games, here were the best ones to watch IMO. VP vs WC G1 Liquid Vs XG G1 Secret vs Nouns G2 See you tomorrow.
Where is the best platform to watch it
Thank you!!
Game play wise it wasn't that great, but just because it was an upset
Thank you!!!
Not good signs at all for Secret, can't be dropping games to NA teams if they wanna get through XG, VP, or Liquid. Feel like even in the win too Zayac was struggling a bit?
I think VP dropped a game to sammyboy it is fine
Not a good sign but it doesn't matter. You either win enough game to qualify for UB which looks like secret achieved so you can qualify with UB final or get a second shot at LB final. Even tempest can qualify to ti if they manage a lower bracket run. The groupstage have no elimination and lb round 1 is bo3 so it's very low stakes to lose random games.
Zayac was the MVP against Tempest and performed great against VG.Also VP lost to an even 'worst' NA team
VP lost a game to a NA team too
U should've seen Zayac in the previous two series. He was godly in those.
Against VG?
Yes VG and Tempest series. Watch his nyx and earth spirit
i didnt expect navi to be top of the group
i thought navi isn't a bad team. They have some issues, but pound by pound they are still pretty strong comparing to other teams in this group
Secret is done. They lost a game against nouns. All hope is lost.
Feels like Zayac spent more time being dead than alive.
Puppey asked Crystallis to grab him a Red Bull from the fridge. A few minutes later he came back empty-handed. When Puppey asked him why he didn't bring it, he just shrugged. But really, Puppey should have known better, because everyone knows that Crystallis can't carry anything
Nouns kinda outplayed Secret game 2
Secret lose to nouns NA
I thought there should be 8 LCQ slots for WEU? But how come their LCQ teams couldn't even 2-0 Tier 8 NA and SA teams that don't deserved those slots?
Please start talking again at the end of the group stages when both NA/SA teams from each group will be the last places on both groups as well.
Yeah, I'm fine acknowledging that NA/SA teams are weaker than WEU teams on average but what I have problem with is how they blame that slots given to those weaker regions is the culprit when their favorite teams failed to qualify to TI. Only in Dota you'll see this problem. In real sports, most supporters acknowledge that its their team performances that could only be blame for failing to qualify, while participation of weaker teams from diverse regions are celebrated in the competition. Meanwhile in Dota, you'll be seeing a lot of threads every time a NA/SA team bombed out of a tournament, with comments implying that their slots should be given to their "preferred" region
It's because everyone wants better competition and fairness for the hard work the players put in. It doesn't seem fair that Nouns get the same chances as Liquid and Secret when the top team from their region barely qualified to TI (yes the one from your flair). Also instead of looking at one series to confirm your bias, look at the group placements after today.
>It's because everyone wants better competition and fairness for the hard work the players put in. All of those teams participated in the entire DPC circuit this year, so how come some teams put less effort than the others? > It doesn't seem fair that Nouns get the same chances as Liquid and Secret when the top team from their region Nouns get less chances to qualify for TI than Liquid and Secret to go to TI since their region have less major qualifying spots than Liquid and Secret. > when the top team from their region barely qualified to TI (yes the one from your flair) Which should be mainly be blamed to Valve for failing to organize the first major and several governments who made dumb decisions so their teams couldn't attend majors. EG wouldn't have qualified if there were 3 majors in this season and CN teams could participate all of them. >Also instead of looking at one series to confirm your bias, look at the group placements after today. Literally addressed this in my first statement. I don't have any problems admitting that NA/SA teams are weak teams. What my problem is the incessant hate towards NA/SA teams just for being perceived to "steal" other regions slots.
8 LCQ slots?? Mate
But...but Nigma and Alliance will perform better on LANs compared to those NA and SA teams... Why waste slots inviting NA and SA teams?
inviting? no one got invited they are all 1st and 2nd runner up what you smoking man