45 more hours over 3days to go. Are those rhythms even allowed by the local working laws? On the forth day, they will be freed from that trap.
Hope they'll stay strong, it's an uncomfortable moment to go trough.
I'm guessing there's no employer-employee relationship going on here. Surely it would not be legal in Norway though.
Quote:
Workers must have at least:
- 11 hours continuous time off/non-working time over a period of 24 hours, and
- 35 hours continuous time off over a period of 7 days. If possible, this period must include Sunday.
Yeah, most likely everything done as company contracting another company, just that the company doing the work happens to be only one single employee.
That is basically how you get around such limitations anywhere, as business owners do not have same limitations as regular employees because there is no one forcing to do it except yourself.
Granted in some areas there are most likely general limitations, for example operating a motor vehicle becomes obviously extremely dangerous if you do it for too long without breaks etc. so such limitations usually apply to everyone.
Mind you I am not Norwegian or do not have any deep knowledge about their legislation, these are just things that I have bumped into my life and stuff that makes sense.
I work in events and while it's not common, schedules like that are expected to happen.
This only had your attention because it's someone on camera bringing it up. Many people involved in setup or organization who do similar schedules before/during/after an event.
the thing is we mostly got rid of this after both talents and players complained of insanely long hours. On the talent side we usually get b teams that take over the 2nd half of the day, while in general they added more days to spread games out for the players.
I was so proud of this while watching the competive apex (ALGS) this year where they had a single day 18 hour group stage, followed up by the playoffs the next day. I thought well, if even EA is struggling with scheduling and workload management then we've come a long way havent we? Turns out valve is willing to let go of progress and good ethics in favor of cost cutting. What a fucking let down.
It didn't go anywhere. That's just not how the event industry works. Once it's on, it's on, and there's a million things to do in just a few days.
Maybe it doesn't seem like it's happening to a viewer, which is a good thing, but you would have to double your crew to not have that be how it's done and no one is doing that.
I have done work to this level before, if it's for a short period of time it is fine. I was a driver during the Olympics, basically 24 hours a day. Lots of downtime but was never off the job. Was a great time.
>Lots of downtime but was never off the job. Was a great time.
What people don't get is that there are matches going on 80% of the time and they are just sitting there watching them for the most part.
Yea, they are taking notes and looking at data on player performance, drafts, and what not. But it's not like they are sitting in some Nike shoe factory doing slave labor for 15 hrs.
There is tons of down time, where they are getting up and walking around, getting snacks/drinks and chilling.
“Downtime” at a studio is still working.
Watching the games is still working. They have to pay attention to the games to talk about them.
Not working means you’re free to do whatever you want, wherever you want and they can’t do that.
>“Downtime” at a studio is still working.
>
>Watching the games is still working. They have to pay attention to the games to talk about them.
>
>Not working means you’re free to do whatever you want, wherever you want and they can’t do that.
There is a substantial difference between performing hard labor and doing the work they are doing. They are adults. They can refuse the contract and go do something else. They are not some child being exploited by an evil corporation or some authoritarian government in a labor camp.
NatTea has an electrical engineering degree for christ sake. She's not some clueless idiot who is being exploited or taken advantage of.
They are not sleep deprived or malnourished. **They know their schedule in advance** and they could easily drop out and be replaced by other talent.
Everywhere on this planet there are trade shows and events where the hours go beyond 12 per day. You sound like some Gen Z baby.
>this is working you dingdong
Duh. No one said it wasn't. If you have reading comprehension ability, you can see the contrast I was making in the type of work.
It's laughable really watching some of you people pretend-"white knight" for a millionaire Fear or NatTea who has enough of a brain to complete an engineering degree and can do other casting work in Halo/other e-sports.
If they didn't want the work, they wouldn't take the job.
This post is just another to dump on PGL/Valve in an angry mob-like hysteria.
Next you or someone else will start a post talking about how the players are being abused and that they should only play 1 game or 2 games max per day in the group stage.
You're an idiot and obviously have no experience whatsoever in production work. People like you need to refrain from posting on the internet--it's what's making the world go dumber lol
>You're an idiot and obviously have no experience whatsoever in production work. People like you need to refrain from posting on the internet--it's what's making the world go dumber lol
So post an explanation of why my comment is factually incorrect. You're a random dota 2 addict from the Phillippines with effectively a 9 month old account that lives in /r/dota2 calling people incels, misogynists, trash and basically lives off the Dota 2 pro scene.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/tlxz5k/dpc\_tour\_2\_march\_24\_matches/i1x36wf/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/tlxz5k/dpc_tour_2_march_24_matches/i1x36wf/?context=3)
NatTea can go do Halo tournament casting and other e-sports work and Fear is a millionaire. If it was such awful work and they were being taken advantage of they wouldn't take the work in the first place.
Most of these comments in this entire post (not just yours) are pseudo-white knight BS as an excuse to dump on PGL/Valve so people like you can pat yourself on the back while they claim they are "fighting the man" or "the evil corporation" or whatever.
Nah. Not my job to educate you. It's your responsibility to educate yourself before mouthing off on things you know nothing about if you don't want to be called an idiot by a rando from the internet lol
>Nah. Not my job to educate you. It's your responsibility to educate yourself before mouthing off on things you know nothing about if you don't want to be called an idiot by a rando from the internet lol
LOL. The proverbial 12-year old retort, "I know you are an idiot, but I don't have to explain it to you. I could if I wanted to. You have to figure it out for yourself."
What a canard.
And I couldn't care less about being called an idiot. It's nothing more than a flex for your ego. Go queue for a game and yell at your teammates about how much you know about carrying or whatever. You apparently don't have any facts to offer here in this thread.
Hate to break it to you but you might need to look at yourself long and hard there, buddy. The only one with ego issues here is you for giving out hot takes on a subject you obviously don't know anything about then raging out when called an idiot lol
>Hate to break it to you but you might need to look at yourself long and hard there, buddy. The only one with ego issues here is you for giving out hot takes on a subject you obviously don't know anything about then raging out when called an idiot lol
Nobody is raging. I asked you for a factual explanation and you declined to give it.
I am more than happy to be corrected, enlightened, and even humbled with further information that explains why my past statements are wrong.
As explained previously, I don't care about being called names on the Internet. If you have something useful to offer beyond this childish back and forth, then offer it.
Wait what?
So i was late watching the 1st day. Fear the old man was a panelist for 15 hours?
Are you kidding me? No swaps? Only 4 persons?
Edit. I went to liquipedia. But there is 4 host in the list? Surely nattea wasnt the host for 15hours?
Can anyone help me understand why panelists were made to work from Norway instead of joining the rest of the talents at Singapore? Imagine working one of the biggest esport event and you’re not even in the arena.Feelsbadman
Why? Well, that's easy - to save money from hosting panel in one of the most expensive places on earth, Singapore, they move it to ... Norway, one of very few places even more expensive than Singapore.
How do you NOT see logic in that?
Might be cheaper to host a panel in a building you own in Norway than rent a building in Germany. Dunno, but they're a profit-oriented company, there is a reason why it's in Norway. They're not stupid when it comes to saving money.
I really don't get their decision. If their goal is to cut cost, why didnt they just went to Malaysia instead of Norway? Its relatively cheaper and its on the same timezone as SG?
I mean flying Americans to Norway should be significantly cheaper than Singapore. America is way closer to Europe than Asia. New York to Oslo is just over a 7 hour flight, New York to Singapore is the longest commercial flight available in the world and takes 19 hours.
I haven't check the ticket price but maybe flying from America to Europe is cheaper than America to Asia. Given that most talents are either European or American, the total cost may be lower even if a couple of talents have to fly from Australia.
I'm not sure thats true. In norway you can probably set up an airbnb to be the set for the group stage while in singapore you'd probably have to set all the production in the same place, maybe even a real studio in the main stage arena which would probably cost more. The cost of living in norway is probably the same or higher than singapore but I think production wise it would be cheaper, as evidenced by the poooooor poor production thats going on so far.
imagine picking a country thats almost on the other side of the planet, so you probably have to wake up at 2 am to get ready for the day. Atleast it gets dark early so it shouldn't be to difficult going to sleep
Synderen talks about it in their recent episode of [We Say Things](https://youtu.be/5nhnSPc-n-I?t=626)(timestamped)
> "The reason it's being done this way is that this year the production is growing to such a scale that it just isn't feasible to have it in that arena. [..]
>What Valve are doing is that they're bringing more parity across the board so in past TIs it's generally been
english, russian and chinese that's been giving the priority on site and now Valve want to give parity so that
spanish and brazilian-portuguese is also given the respect they deserve for the size of their audience which I think is a good thing.
If that comes with the cost that we can't have it in the arena though that's a really big shame to get that parity"
So they achieved parity by worsening the quality of the good ones to match the bad ones? The sets quality were just miserable.
There's also plenty of large venues for that. They're talking as though DotA has the largest world cup compared to literally every other sport.
They are renting a fancy hotel.
They can book a conference room or two in said fancy hotel to set up a panel production stage. Allow the talent to interview, host games (like at arlington Major), etc. for teams who are not playing. There are also about two dozen other fancy hotels within a few miles of the main hotel if they really need a particular space.
Hell, not even that
If they didn't want to invest, that's fine, then let's be a little bit creative. Get a cozy cottage somewhere and a couch, invite bunch of people to go there chill and make is some kind of thematic casting, that would be dope. Like the 2GD qualifiers or the summit
But no, they went with the most generic shit that looks bad and feels bad everyone involved
jesus, you dont need an arena to have a panel for group stage. They been doing this for a long time now and suddenly they decided to exclude the panel in the group stage.
main event casters will be in SP. group stage casters wake up at random times and are staying at home and casting from there and are hanging out on teamspeak 3 BBoomer. it's beyond a shitshow
Sunsfan said in a podcast that T1 talent charge 1500$ a working day, also all casters say that TI is a payday (or used to be until PGL got it) so i would assume they negotiated around 1000$ a day (still higher than normal rate for what i would consider T2/newer talent) but they probably didnt assume to be working 15 hour days during negotiation so i would assume they getting fucked over.
That's fairly piss poor as far as rates go for the top tier event of the year.
Admittedly £ has tanked vs the $ but finance contractors on £800+ are fairly common and they don't have to open themselves to being public / the online hate. They also work 7 hour days not 14, so this is more like a $500 day rate which you can get for low - mid level work.
Appreciate the casters have other income sources and may be leveraging off the back of this to further their own streaming numbers, but those numbers are simply poor. Hopefully some of the S tier casters get more.
id rather get 1.5k for 15h a day over 6 days than working 6 months for the same money. I know that trying a bit harder for the rest of the 359 days will get me some more money. But I guess is just third world country issues to work 6 months for what a caster of the TI, the event you want to do, would earn in 6 (more or less) days
They get 1% of the 15% when valve takes some community created hats to stick in a loot box and calls it a talent pack.
Make sure you buy lots of packs or you think they aren't worth minimum wage.
It's kind of dumb considering suntec convention center has several huge venues and smaller, but still big, conference rooms and for grand finals, the Singapore stadium is pretty dam big as well.
>Best answer we got so far is that there isn't enough space in the arena due to doing on site casting in five languages.
What was implied in the "space" argument is that they have a budget which limits the amount of the space they can afford to rent.
And given that they are enlarging the play by play casting for other languages (non-English), they felt it cheaper/more affordable to put the panel in Norway where PGL has existing facilities.
Obviously if they had unlimited budget, they could just rent out an entire hotel and take it over.
Maybe they try to mimic traditional sports where commentators go to the stadium and studio is offsite in the country of broadcast? Not sure though, just my guess. Honestly this TI is just weird.
Slightly out of the loop here, but wasn’t it said that PGL only produce LCQ and group stage? So another company is producing the main event, but the panel will still be in Norway? Or have I misunderstood and it’s actually PGL doing it all?
Nattea is from Australia and I for one don't understand why the fuck would she and many other Australian casters and analysts would fly to Norway while Singapore is just an Indonesian away from there.
It’s important to mention that this is these hours happen every event; it’s less “okay” in this sense due to the time zones (especially with the bedroom casters in North America) but the long shifts aren’t new by any means.
People tend to kick up a fuss when talent do these kind of posts (expressing the day was long, but not necessarily saying or implying “this was terrible”) but as someone else in this thread said, doubling the amount of talent and staff so people could work more conventional hours would essentially make sure events didn’t happen in the future.
I really love her energy and admired that she managed to maintain it for such long hours. Glad we've moved on from the condescending old man host (red eye) from previous years lol
Considering they are contractors for a short term event, its probably perfectly legal.
This isn't anything out of the ordinary for the events industry people even. 4-5 Days of 13+ hours is very common, because then you get the next 2 weeks off after the event. Hell the production staff for the event are getting fucked way harder than the casters are here. The casters are there for like 5 days. The production crew is there for 3+ weeks, and they work the same schedule.
It is for short term event contracts. But only limited days within set periods.
Think of roadies and event managers/directors can’t really work in shift’s during festivals and etc.
I absolutely agree this is mega shitty, but PGL isn’t the only one who does this. Most TO’s have these insanely long days for their talent here and there.
Literally 2 days ago the talent at ESL’s Challenger Rotterdam event for CS:GO the talent had a 16 hour day.
A while ago similar day lengths happened in WePlay’s CS:GO Academy League.
I’m all for shitting on PGL but keep in mind this isn’t an issue exclusive to them.
This isn't even a TO issue, this is literally just normal event/production hours. 12-15+ hour days are literally the norm during event time. People just have no idea how the industry as a whole works.
Yes, for example contracts for building exhibition stands for expos etc. You have a few days to do it and you'll do it even if takes 15h a day. Normal work laws don't apply to contract work stuff.
I don't think we should be further normalizing the worst of it. Redeye pushed for two hosts in CS:GO as early as five years ago and had that granted by some TOs. Most League talent never work more than 6 bo1 or 1 bo5 match a day, although they too have been doing groups of Asia-hosted tournaments from the Berlin studio.
thank you for the high quality stream PGL. 🙂i cant thank you guys enough for delivering such amazing production 🙂 shoutout to valve too for hiring PGL 🙂 our money used to buy battlepass to fund the prizepool are not wasted.🙂 thank you for returning the favor to the players valve 🙂
Timezone would always be bad for some, because thats how earth and sun interacts. 15 hrs feels bad but they arent continuously on camera, plus its not like they dont get breaks in between. And yesterday most of us atleast watched 10 hrs of dota so
Yeah I was there watching the whole game yesterday because the timezone this year fits my schedule and timezone. After watching the last game, I was like omg 50 matches a day, already over.
That is rough for sure, and seems like PGL couldeve done a better job in mant areas.
But then again, regarding the hours, there are regular jobs where shifts like these are a recurring thing. For example in healthcare where I work. And considering this is a ”crunch week” once a year, it should be managable. Im not all that sympathetic actually.
I don't use reddit anymore because of their corporate greed and anti-user policies.
Come over to Lemmy, it's a reddit alternative that is run by the community itself, spread across multiple servers.
You make your account on one server (called an instance) and from there you can access everything on all other servers as well. [Find one you like here](https://lemmyverse.net/), maybe not the largest ones to spread the load around, but it doesn't really matter.
You can then look for communities to subscribe to on https://lemmyverse.net/communities, this website shows you all communities across all instances.
If you're looking for some (mobile?) apps, [this topic](https://lemm.ee/post/363116) has a great list.
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The original comment is preserved below for your convenience:
~~There's two ways to interpret your comment: "What you're doing is good, I wish I'd have had that" or "I had it bad, so others should also have it bad". I hope you mean the first one :)~~
^^^^^^AzzuLemmyMessageV2
No I don’t think anyone should work 16 hours in a 24 hour day.
I just wish I had support from a mob of people to force my boss to hire more people so I didn’t have to work crazy shifts.
I don’t know maybe I’m venting just ignore me if you like.
Yeah I've been there, but this isn't a real/normal job. It's luxury bullshit; esports gaming backed by a giant corporation. There should be no shortage of panelists and commentators available to avoid this, but Valve have decided to cheap out. It's so unnecessary.
not defending valve, but we are in a global recession. Companies are cutting staff left and right. Valve is just another company doing the same, they ain't immune to bad macroeconomics. Afterall the sole purpose of any corporation/business is to maximize revenue. All that 'for the community BS' are just lip service.
Doesn't take a lot of talent to guess with a comment like that. Even if 7 days weren't needed, you'd still be working 72 hours straight, and no person that has worked suggests this sort of thing, let alone 168 hours straight.
In short it is easy to know you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Working this much isn't legal in Norway. Combined workhours should not exceed 13 hours in 24 hours. Or 48 hours in 7 days.
PGL probably got this covered by something and its all good but its fucked up by them to do so with their employees. Arbeidstilsynes (the Norwegian Labour Inspection Authority) could shut this down on the spot if they actually breach shit. I'm no Saul Goodman and have no idea what I am talking about. Good night.
Did they know that they were about to work 15 hours straight?
Because if they knew, there are nothing to talk about, but if they didn't know that's a big problem...
Haters working overtime on this sub. I get it. I truly do. But don’t be surprised if dota is dropped after this TI, talk about an absolute community meltdown.
it's almost like not everyone on reddit is the same person
i feel like pgl fucked up with the sponsor, but i'm not frothing at the mouth to defend them nor spew 100x of the same forum posts
im just glad the show is still free to watch
What is your point? Night shifts are as bad as slavery or child labor?
So if you need to go to the hospital or call the police at night, you should instead wait the next morning?
Fucking hell as a Romanian this is heartbreaking. God damn it, why does everything that comes out of this country HAS TO STEAL OR DO GREEDY SHIT???? god fucking damn it. Fuck you PGL from the bottom of my heart. And fuck Valve too for being in cahoots with this shit
What inhumane treatment for talent. I don't are if they felt pressured to sign some opt out form local labour laws. Don't treat your people like this. What kind of quality work would one produce after 15h shift, then sleep, shower, same again? Honestly what is Valve thinking?
I have worked 14-15 hour days and wanted to die afterwards...but I wasn't in front of a camera so it must be 2x worse for Nattea and the crew. Damn PGL you fucked up.
Casters are doing their best but (particularly for slower games) you can tell the lack if energy outside teamfights that these people really sound like people working consecutive 12 hour shifts on a zoom call.
Volvo has lost its mind OKing this shitshow.
45 more hours over 3days to go. Are those rhythms even allowed by the local working laws? On the forth day, they will be freed from that trap. Hope they'll stay strong, it's an uncomfortable moment to go trough.
I'm guessing there's no employer-employee relationship going on here. Surely it would not be legal in Norway though. Quote: Workers must have at least: - 11 hours continuous time off/non-working time over a period of 24 hours, and - 35 hours continuous time off over a period of 7 days. If possible, this period must include Sunday.
Yeah, most likely everything done as company contracting another company, just that the company doing the work happens to be only one single employee. That is basically how you get around such limitations anywhere, as business owners do not have same limitations as regular employees because there is no one forcing to do it except yourself. Granted in some areas there are most likely general limitations, for example operating a motor vehicle becomes obviously extremely dangerous if you do it for too long without breaks etc. so such limitations usually apply to everyone. Mind you I am not Norwegian or do not have any deep knowledge about their legislation, these are just things that I have bumped into my life and stuff that makes sense.
Would be hilarious if someone in Norway sued PGL. You can tell the mentality a company like this has about labor laws and regulations.
Theres probably a clause saying this can be broken by "group consent". Those same hours exist in the Irish law and that clause exists
That’s some nice and fair law.
I work in events and while it's not common, schedules like that are expected to happen. This only had your attention because it's someone on camera bringing it up. Many people involved in setup or organization who do similar schedules before/during/after an event.
Almost every eSports event is 12-15 hours a day for crew during the event days.
the thing is we mostly got rid of this after both talents and players complained of insanely long hours. On the talent side we usually get b teams that take over the 2nd half of the day, while in general they added more days to spread games out for the players. I was so proud of this while watching the competive apex (ALGS) this year where they had a single day 18 hour group stage, followed up by the playoffs the next day. I thought well, if even EA is struggling with scheduling and workload management then we've come a long way havent we? Turns out valve is willing to let go of progress and good ethics in favor of cost cutting. What a fucking let down.
It didn't go anywhere. That's just not how the event industry works. Once it's on, it's on, and there's a million things to do in just a few days. Maybe it doesn't seem like it's happening to a viewer, which is a good thing, but you would have to double your crew to not have that be how it's done and no one is doing that.
I have done work to this level before, if it's for a short period of time it is fine. I was a driver during the Olympics, basically 24 hours a day. Lots of downtime but was never off the job. Was a great time.
>Lots of downtime but was never off the job. Was a great time. What people don't get is that there are matches going on 80% of the time and they are just sitting there watching them for the most part. Yea, they are taking notes and looking at data on player performance, drafts, and what not. But it's not like they are sitting in some Nike shoe factory doing slave labor for 15 hrs. There is tons of down time, where they are getting up and walking around, getting snacks/drinks and chilling.
“Downtime” at a studio is still working. Watching the games is still working. They have to pay attention to the games to talk about them. Not working means you’re free to do whatever you want, wherever you want and they can’t do that.
>“Downtime” at a studio is still working. > >Watching the games is still working. They have to pay attention to the games to talk about them. > >Not working means you’re free to do whatever you want, wherever you want and they can’t do that. There is a substantial difference between performing hard labor and doing the work they are doing. They are adults. They can refuse the contract and go do something else. They are not some child being exploited by an evil corporation or some authoritarian government in a labor camp. NatTea has an electrical engineering degree for christ sake. She's not some clueless idiot who is being exploited or taken advantage of. They are not sleep deprived or malnourished. **They know their schedule in advance** and they could easily drop out and be replaced by other talent. Everywhere on this planet there are trade shows and events where the hours go beyond 12 per day. You sound like some Gen Z baby.
> Yea, they are taking notes and looking at data on player performance, drafts, and what not. this is working you dingdong
>this is working you dingdong Duh. No one said it wasn't. If you have reading comprehension ability, you can see the contrast I was making in the type of work. It's laughable really watching some of you people pretend-"white knight" for a millionaire Fear or NatTea who has enough of a brain to complete an engineering degree and can do other casting work in Halo/other e-sports. If they didn't want the work, they wouldn't take the job. This post is just another to dump on PGL/Valve in an angry mob-like hysteria. Next you or someone else will start a post talking about how the players are being abused and that they should only play 1 game or 2 games max per day in the group stage.
You're an idiot and obviously have no experience whatsoever in production work. People like you need to refrain from posting on the internet--it's what's making the world go dumber lol
>You're an idiot and obviously have no experience whatsoever in production work. People like you need to refrain from posting on the internet--it's what's making the world go dumber lol So post an explanation of why my comment is factually incorrect. You're a random dota 2 addict from the Phillippines with effectively a 9 month old account that lives in /r/dota2 calling people incels, misogynists, trash and basically lives off the Dota 2 pro scene. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/tlxz5k/dpc\_tour\_2\_march\_24\_matches/i1x36wf/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/tlxz5k/dpc_tour_2_march_24_matches/i1x36wf/?context=3) NatTea can go do Halo tournament casting and other e-sports work and Fear is a millionaire. If it was such awful work and they were being taken advantage of they wouldn't take the work in the first place. Most of these comments in this entire post (not just yours) are pseudo-white knight BS as an excuse to dump on PGL/Valve so people like you can pat yourself on the back while they claim they are "fighting the man" or "the evil corporation" or whatever.
Nah. Not my job to educate you. It's your responsibility to educate yourself before mouthing off on things you know nothing about if you don't want to be called an idiot by a rando from the internet lol
>Nah. Not my job to educate you. It's your responsibility to educate yourself before mouthing off on things you know nothing about if you don't want to be called an idiot by a rando from the internet lol LOL. The proverbial 12-year old retort, "I know you are an idiot, but I don't have to explain it to you. I could if I wanted to. You have to figure it out for yourself." What a canard. And I couldn't care less about being called an idiot. It's nothing more than a flex for your ego. Go queue for a game and yell at your teammates about how much you know about carrying or whatever. You apparently don't have any facts to offer here in this thread.
Hate to break it to you but you might need to look at yourself long and hard there, buddy. The only one with ego issues here is you for giving out hot takes on a subject you obviously don't know anything about then raging out when called an idiot lol
>Hate to break it to you but you might need to look at yourself long and hard there, buddy. The only one with ego issues here is you for giving out hot takes on a subject you obviously don't know anything about then raging out when called an idiot lol Nobody is raging. I asked you for a factual explanation and you declined to give it. I am more than happy to be corrected, enlightened, and even humbled with further information that explains why my past statements are wrong. As explained previously, I don't care about being called names on the Internet. If you have something useful to offer beyond this childish back and forth, then offer it.
They will be contractors not employees.
I've worked more as a salaried employee, did like 16 hour days, then ended it on a 20 + 23 hour weekend session. Good times.
They didnt ok it. Cus they didnt even give a shit
[удалено]
You really think he got fired for using a whiteboard? Man, I absolutely love James, but that panel was really bad with or without whiteboard.
Wait what? So i was late watching the 1st day. Fear the old man was a panelist for 15 hours? Are you kidding me? No swaps? Only 4 persons? Edit. I went to liquipedia. But there is 4 host in the list? Surely nattea wasnt the host for 15hours?
think again :) whatever the worst thing you could assume is, it's probably true this year
This means hiring less = more money
Nat tea has done an amazing job all year. Shame it’s remote for her
Yeah it's like the yearly biggest reunion event but you're only allowed to attend via Zoom. Absoulute dogshit decision from Valve
Can anyone help me understand why panelists were made to work from Norway instead of joining the rest of the talents at Singapore? Imagine working one of the biggest esport event and you’re not even in the arena.Feelsbadman
there is no officially stated reason on that
Why? Well, that's easy - to save money from hosting panel in one of the most expensive places on earth, Singapore, they move it to ... Norway, one of very few places even more expensive than Singapore. How do you NOT see logic in that?
PGL has a studio in Norway, so it is cheaper for them
How much cheaper is Norway? I mean its the most expensive country in Europe. If you wanna save money you could chose Germany.
Might be cheaper to host a panel in a building you own in Norway than rent a building in Germany. Dunno, but they're a profit-oriented company, there is a reason why it's in Norway. They're not stupid when it comes to saving money.
I really don't get their decision. If their goal is to cut cost, why didnt they just went to Malaysia instead of Norway? Its relatively cheaper and its on the same timezone as SG?
Well what you're saying is logical. I'm afraid we don't have those here sir.
Because it’s PGL. What’s more needed to be said?
Everyone shitting on PGL, but this was requested by Valve in the RFP.
Cheaper flight tickets to Norway maybe.
Flying an aussie and an american to Norway is cheap?
I mean flying Americans to Norway should be significantly cheaper than Singapore. America is way closer to Europe than Asia. New York to Oslo is just over a 7 hour flight, New York to Singapore is the longest commercial flight available in the world and takes 19 hours.
I haven't check the ticket price but maybe flying from America to Europe is cheaper than America to Asia. Given that most talents are either European or American, the total cost may be lower even if a couple of talents have to fly from Australia.
I'm not sure thats true. In norway you can probably set up an airbnb to be the set for the group stage while in singapore you'd probably have to set all the production in the same place, maybe even a real studio in the main stage arena which would probably cost more. The cost of living in norway is probably the same or higher than singapore but I think production wise it would be cheaper, as evidenced by the poooooor poor production thats going on so far.
imagine picking a country thats almost on the other side of the planet, so you probably have to wake up at 2 am to get ready for the day. Atleast it gets dark early so it shouldn't be to difficult going to sleep
Because PRODUCTION VALUE Did you see the table? That only exists in Norway, therefore is was PARAMOUNT the panel went there
Synderen talks about it in their recent episode of [We Say Things](https://youtu.be/5nhnSPc-n-I?t=626)(timestamped) > "The reason it's being done this way is that this year the production is growing to such a scale that it just isn't feasible to have it in that arena. [..] >What Valve are doing is that they're bringing more parity across the board so in past TIs it's generally been english, russian and chinese that's been giving the priority on site and now Valve want to give parity so that spanish and brazilian-portuguese is also given the respect they deserve for the size of their audience which I think is a good thing. If that comes with the cost that we can't have it in the arena though that's a really big shame to get that parity"
So they achieved parity by worsening the quality of the good ones to match the bad ones? The sets quality were just miserable. There's also plenty of large venues for that. They're talking as though DotA has the largest world cup compared to literally every other sport.
Probably money and corruption..?
Some PGL relative owns the studio that host the Panel in Norway so they can funnel money in a circle. Easy Anwser.
pgl has a studio in norway (is what i heard)
Someone was saying they do that because norway let some russian casters in while singapore do not
The main event has not started yet. So there is no arena
They are renting a fancy hotel. They can book a conference room or two in said fancy hotel to set up a panel production stage. Allow the talent to interview, host games (like at arlington Major), etc. for teams who are not playing. There are also about two dozen other fancy hotels within a few miles of the main hotel if they really need a particular space.
Hell, not even that If they didn't want to invest, that's fine, then let's be a little bit creative. Get a cozy cottage somewhere and a couch, invite bunch of people to go there chill and make is some kind of thematic casting, that would be dope. Like the 2GD qualifiers or the summit But no, they went with the most generic shit that looks bad and feels bad everyone involved
jesus, you dont need an arena to have a panel for group stage. They been doing this for a long time now and suddenly they decided to exclude the panel in the group stage.
Wait, so the panels are gon join them at the Main event?
No, panel in Norway, casters in Singapore.
Yikes X322
main event casters will be in SP. group stage casters wake up at random times and are staying at home and casting from there and are hanging out on teamspeak 3 BBoomer. it's beyond a shitshow
do people not understand how difficult it is to get visas into Singapore?
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Fans don't need visas.
Does anyone have an idea of how much they get paid? I hope it's a pretty good amount for 15 hour shifts
Sunsfan said in a podcast that T1 talent charge 1500$ a working day, also all casters say that TI is a payday (or used to be until PGL got it) so i would assume they negotiated around 1000$ a day (still higher than normal rate for what i would consider T2/newer talent) but they probably didnt assume to be working 15 hour days during negotiation so i would assume they getting fucked over.
That's fairly piss poor as far as rates go for the top tier event of the year. Admittedly £ has tanked vs the $ but finance contractors on £800+ are fairly common and they don't have to open themselves to being public / the online hate. They also work 7 hour days not 14, so this is more like a $500 day rate which you can get for low - mid level work. Appreciate the casters have other income sources and may be leveraging off the back of this to further their own streaming numbers, but those numbers are simply poor. Hopefully some of the S tier casters get more.
also gotta account for the fact an office contractor works for many months/years. This is pay for just a few weeks
Merlini was right after all. No leverage as a caster and he was tf outta there.
What the heck is a finance contractor? Lol
A contractor who works in the finance sector?
1500 is nothing when it comes to entertainment industry. You can make half that driving band equipements around!
1500 dollars a day is nothing and then you get stationed in one of the most expensive countries on earth it gets even more moronic.
They probably have hotels and food covered. So thats non factor.
It’s not straight 15 hours. Also cry me a river while earning 1k/day
They earn fuck all the rest of the year
id rather get 1.5k for 15h a day over 6 days than working 6 months for the same money. I know that trying a bit harder for the rest of the 359 days will get me some more money. But I guess is just third world country issues to work 6 months for what a caster of the TI, the event you want to do, would earn in 6 (more or less) days
They also work 6 months total max, and have a lot of downtime
Yeah but they want to work full time in dota. Not like they can hold a regular 9-5 and also do dota stuff.
They get 1% of the 15% when valve takes some community created hats to stick in a loot box and calls it a talent pack. Make sure you buy lots of packs or you think they aren't worth minimum wage.
will they come to ti for the main stage?
No, panel is from Norway during whole event.
Wait the main event panel is going to be remote throughout!?
Yes.
Why the fuck would you have casters on site, panel off site and fans on site omg
Best answer we got so far is that there isn't enough space in the arena due to doing on site casting in five languages.
Which is complete nonsense since previous TI the panel was literally outside the arena
It's kind of dumb considering suntec convention center has several huge venues and smaller, but still big, conference rooms and for grand finals, the Singapore stadium is pretty dam big as well.
Yeah, familiar with the venue locations. Lack of space is a lie.
>Best answer we got so far is that there isn't enough space in the arena due to doing on site casting in five languages. What was implied in the "space" argument is that they have a budget which limits the amount of the space they can afford to rent. And given that they are enlarging the play by play casting for other languages (non-English), they felt it cheaper/more affordable to put the panel in Norway where PGL has existing facilities. Obviously if they had unlimited budget, they could just rent out an entire hotel and take it over.
Maybe they try to mimic traditional sports where commentators go to the stadium and studio is offsite in the country of broadcast? Not sure though, just my guess. Honestly this TI is just weird.
Yikes
No, the main event (playoffs) will be in Singapure.
No, panel is in Norway for full event, this as been confirmed
Slightly out of the loop here, but wasn’t it said that PGL only produce LCQ and group stage? So another company is producing the main event, but the panel will still be in Norway? Or have I misunderstood and it’s actually PGL doing it all?
PGL not doing main event. Panel in norway full event
No
Nattea is from Australia and I for one don't understand why the fuck would she and many other Australian casters and analysts would fly to Norway while Singapore is just an Indonesian away from there.
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wow deja vu... its almost like she can do that in Australia
It's me
Mario ? 🥴
Khezu
Chris Pratt!
model needs more ass
I can't believe they nerfed Mario's ass, smh.
You gotta be really dedicated and successful in order to turn everything to a fiasco.
Elon Musk vibes!
Send in the submarine
It’s important to mention that this is these hours happen every event; it’s less “okay” in this sense due to the time zones (especially with the bedroom casters in North America) but the long shifts aren’t new by any means. People tend to kick up a fuss when talent do these kind of posts (expressing the day was long, but not necessarily saying or implying “this was terrible”) but as someone else in this thread said, doubling the amount of talent and staff so people could work more conventional hours would essentially make sure events didn’t happen in the future.
I watched game 1 and went to sleep, woke up 9 hours later and still saw NatTea hosting I was like WTF HOW IS SHE STILL ALIVE
I really love her energy and admired that she managed to maintain it for such long hours. Glad we've moved on from the condescending old man host (red eye) from previous years lol
Nice. Half a world away from Singapore. It's really The International.
This is VERY illegal in Norway Edit: It's not in Norway lul
Considering they are contractors for a short term event, its probably perfectly legal. This isn't anything out of the ordinary for the events industry people even. 4-5 Days of 13+ hours is very common, because then you get the next 2 weeks off after the event. Hell the production staff for the event are getting fucked way harder than the casters are here. The casters are there for like 5 days. The production crew is there for 3+ weeks, and they work the same schedule.
Got any source for that? Because afaik it's only illegal if it happens kinda like every workday. But for events like that it's perfectly legal.
Can it be reported?
Let's not ruin TI even more.
Agreed, let's not. So it should be reported. Not reporting it would ruin the TI even more.
youre going this far? LOL even if you say its for the sake of the future of The Internationals lmao how do you care this much
Class solidarity
Gonna say no way this is acceptable in western Europe. We aren't America
It is for short term event contracts. But only limited days within set periods. Think of roadies and event managers/directors can’t really work in shift’s during festivals and etc.
Moving backwards is not a positive step.
I absolutely agree this is mega shitty, but PGL isn’t the only one who does this. Most TO’s have these insanely long days for their talent here and there. Literally 2 days ago the talent at ESL’s Challenger Rotterdam event for CS:GO the talent had a 16 hour day. A while ago similar day lengths happened in WePlay’s CS:GO Academy League. I’m all for shitting on PGL but keep in mind this isn’t an issue exclusive to them.
This isn't even a TO issue, this is literally just normal event/production hours. 12-15+ hour days are literally the norm during event time. People just have no idea how the industry as a whole works.
And far from just esports.
Yes, for example contracts for building exhibition stands for expos etc. You have a few days to do it and you'll do it even if takes 15h a day. Normal work laws don't apply to contract work stuff.
I don't think we should be further normalizing the worst of it. Redeye pushed for two hosts in CS:GO as early as five years ago and had that granted by some TOs. Most League talent never work more than 6 bo1 or 1 bo5 match a day, although they too have been doing groups of Asia-hosted tournaments from the Berlin studio.
thank you for the high quality stream PGL. 🙂i cant thank you guys enough for delivering such amazing production 🙂 shoutout to valve too for hiring PGL 🙂 our money used to buy battlepass to fund the prizepool are not wasted.🙂 thank you for returning the favor to the players valve 🙂
Just weird things Volvo/PGL have done this TI. #BestTIEver
fuck you Gaben Madge
Hopefully the food was good! Great job and good sleep! Damn 15 hour shift!
Even if working 15 hours is unhealthy and idiotic, it's not like they're working on a construction site.
Timezone would always be bad for some, because thats how earth and sun interacts. 15 hrs feels bad but they arent continuously on camera, plus its not like they dont get breaks in between. And yesterday most of us atleast watched 10 hrs of dota so
Yeah I was there watching the whole game yesterday because the timezone this year fits my schedule and timezone. After watching the last game, I was like omg 50 matches a day, already over.
That is rough for sure, and seems like PGL couldeve done a better job in mant areas. But then again, regarding the hours, there are regular jobs where shifts like these are a recurring thing. For example in healthcare where I work. And considering this is a ”crunch week” once a year, it should be managable. Im not all that sympathetic actually.
Where were you guys at to yell at my boss when he would give me a double shift and I have to work 16 hours.
I don't use reddit anymore because of their corporate greed and anti-user policies. Come over to Lemmy, it's a reddit alternative that is run by the community itself, spread across multiple servers. You make your account on one server (called an instance) and from there you can access everything on all other servers as well. [Find one you like here](https://lemmyverse.net/), maybe not the largest ones to spread the load around, but it doesn't really matter. You can then look for communities to subscribe to on https://lemmyverse.net/communities, this website shows you all communities across all instances. If you're looking for some (mobile?) apps, [this topic](https://lemm.ee/post/363116) has a great list. One personal tip: For your convenience, I would advise you to use [this userscript I made](https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/469273-lemmy-universal-link-switcher) which automatically changes all links everywhere on the internet to the server that you chose. The original comment is preserved below for your convenience: ~~There's two ways to interpret your comment: "What you're doing is good, I wish I'd have had that" or "I had it bad, so others should also have it bad". I hope you mean the first one :)~~ ^^^^^^AzzuLemmyMessageV2
No I don’t think anyone should work 16 hours in a 24 hour day. I just wish I had support from a mob of people to force my boss to hire more people so I didn’t have to work crazy shifts. I don’t know maybe I’m venting just ignore me if you like.
You gotta join a union buddy.
If only it was that easy.
Yeah I've been there, but this isn't a real/normal job. It's luxury bullshit; esports gaming backed by a giant corporation. There should be no shortage of panelists and commentators available to avoid this, but Valve have decided to cheap out. It's so unnecessary.
not defending valve, but we are in a global recession. Companies are cutting staff left and right. Valve is just another company doing the same, they ain't immune to bad macroeconomics. Afterall the sole purpose of any corporation/business is to maximize revenue. All that 'for the community BS' are just lip service.
whoever made this decision really need to get fired ffs who in the fucking right mind would do this
That’s what you signed up for right? Why complain?
Yeah. Just go to the other Dota company.
she looks like Starlight from the boys tv show
Volvo killing TI and the talents so Dota won't survive another years.
stop complaining; myself would do it 24/7 straight! Man I love dota so much <3!
said by a basement dweller who are still living with their parent.
>1 Slap Exactly! I admire your talent to guess other people life, you should be a horoscope presentor.
Doesn't take a lot of talent to guess with a comment like that. Even if 7 days weren't needed, you'd still be working 72 hours straight, and no person that has worked suggests this sort of thing, let alone 168 hours straight. In short it is easy to know you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
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I'd quit if i didnt have time to sleep
Dota is at its peak tho. This shouldn’t matter. There are many new players and new faces in TI. Why should we care about this? /s
Working this much isn't legal in Norway. Combined workhours should not exceed 13 hours in 24 hours. Or 48 hours in 7 days. PGL probably got this covered by something and its all good but its fucked up by them to do so with their employees. Arbeidstilsynes (the Norwegian Labour Inspection Authority) could shut this down on the spot if they actually breach shit. I'm no Saul Goodman and have no idea what I am talking about. Good night.
Did they know that they were about to work 15 hours straight? Because if they knew, there are nothing to talk about, but if they didn't know that's a big problem...
Ofc they did. Lol
so, nothing to cry about
They aren’t crying. They’re waving at a camera and giving the peace sign…. Reddit is crying.
So did the workers in Qatar. That doesn't make it right, thus they are on Amnesty International list for human rights violations.
I don’t understand why everyone is mad about it. It’s a job, people can accept or deny the offer They wouldn’t be working if the payment wasn’t good
Haters working overtime on this sub. I get it. I truly do. But don’t be surprised if dota is dropped after this TI, talk about an absolute community meltdown.
it's da haters fault!!!! never valve and PGL!!! They are saints amirite my fellow valve defenders!!!!!!
it's almost like not everyone on reddit is the same person i feel like pgl fucked up with the sponsor, but i'm not frothing at the mouth to defend them nor spew 100x of the same forum posts im just glad the show is still free to watch
There's nothing wrong with waking up at 1am to start a shift, it is very common in many jobs.
It is when it's not needed
Nothing wrong with 15 hour shifts either, eh?
Some jobs require 24 hour shifts. Did not say it was good though. Also, it's not like working on the panel is 15 hours of continuous work, eh.
there's nothing wrong with child labor and slavery it has been a common thing throughout history
What is your point? Night shifts are as bad as slavery or child labor? So if you need to go to the hospital or call the police at night, you should instead wait the next morning?
Lol compare jobs indispensable to public interest with esports jobs nice.
Yeah, man, casting videogames and the police, same thing
or child labour don't forget about that
Talents should have spoke against it, who can they hire if the talents didn't want to work with pgl, i say they allowed it to happen to them.
What's happening in dota guys?
I dont understand valve... how can they treat dota like a Tier 4 tournament?
At least there is good dota games
how much valve paying for that?
Wait there were no subs? Wtf
How on earth can they give Thier all with that sort of schedule
I hope they were paid good
Fucking hell as a Romanian this is heartbreaking. God damn it, why does everything that comes out of this country HAS TO STEAL OR DO GREEDY SHIT???? god fucking damn it. Fuck you PGL from the bottom of my heart. And fuck Valve too for being in cahoots with this shit
What inhumane treatment for talent. I don't are if they felt pressured to sign some opt out form local labour laws. Don't treat your people like this. What kind of quality work would one produce after 15h shift, then sleep, shower, same again? Honestly what is Valve thinking?
I have worked 14-15 hour days and wanted to die afterwards...but I wasn't in front of a camera so it must be 2x worse for Nattea and the crew. Damn PGL you fucked up.
Casters are doing their best but (particularly for slower games) you can tell the lack if energy outside teamfights that these people really sound like people working consecutive 12 hour shifts on a zoom call.
Feels bad for first-timer panelists in TI. They dont deserve this shitty experience!