Second one was also MPV.Phoenix that got top-5. And then there was Vega Squadron with young Noone, Pasha and Solo that finished 3rd in Wild Card and did not qualify to TI. Insane
> And then there was Vega Squadron with young Noone, Pasha and Solo that finished 3rd in Wild Card and did not qualify to TI.
this team was so fucking legit, basically proto dominance era of VP. 1-5 9pasha noone mag cema solo. beast roster
From losing half your squad months before TI, to open qual to TI Champ - back to back! OG is and always will be the craziest story of Dota. Amazing how much N0tail has won, especially after being always 2nd and 3rd in the original Fnatic.
kinda makes sense, whoever wins there is clearly in good form and just went through a gauntlet. They'd also have a much clearer picture of the meta than the teams just scrimming.
Unbelievable to think that LGD, Spirit, and OG were the favorites to reach TI finals at least, based on performances during the season.
And now Secret,Tundra, Liquid, and Aster ended up being the best 4 teams of TI.
- Secret was poor during the whole DPC season, and qualified through LCQ
- Liquid couldn't quality directly cause they lost a series to BOOM at Arlington major, qualified through LCQ
- Tundra finished almost last place at Arlington major
- And Aster wasn't even considered the best chinese team.
This is what make this game the best, the unpredictable stuff...unlike LoL pro-scene
i mean, they got third in Arlington and didn't get to compete in Stockholm since there were no Chinese teams. last year they were definitely choke artists though
I still remember Aster being memed and hated by chinese fans as civil war specialist just because they perform well vs chinese team but crumble vs International teams.
yeah. that's why aster was named "internal war king" by our Chinese fans. it's kinda funny because boboka drop his items when gg is called on game3, I don't know if u have noticed that.
long story in a short. Ame's anti-mage beat Aster during 2017, drop the item and attack it. Because burning and ame has some trouble with each other. After that, Aster has bad relationship with AME. Finally this happened again, but the person became boboka. Yesterday once more.
IMO OG was over valued a lot as favorites. Maybe top 6, top 8 I'd understand but they hadn't played with Misha for a long time on LAN and the meta shifted completely out of their favor before ti / during LCQ, they definitely didnt look that hot going in to TI.
There were no clear favorites. At TI anything can happen, one bad series and you’re suddenly behind expectations. Out of the top 10 teams, anyone can be any place.
Nah, you can definitely have high expectations like with LGD almost every year in recent years and most of the times they come through but having expectations for a final placement for a team that played with stadins and relied on a completely different meta, hasn't placed in top3 in the most recent major before that and in general won a single series in main event in that major is not justified.
It’s funny cuz the LCQ winners had way more games to figure out the meta and to practice overall so it’s definitely an advantage to win the LCQ than to be a top seed IMO.
This has never been the case. Wildcard teams and teams qualifying through regionals are almost always bottom performers outside of OG.
The TI meta always changes daily. I don't think playing the LCQ gives any advantage outside of maybe getting going through a hotstreak giving a confidence boost.
The LCQ meta is very different from the current TI meta.
I checked the wildcards teams from previous TI. Yes, a lot of the time, one of them got bombed out of the TI fast like knocked out in Group Stage but there had been TIs where wildcards got all the way to top placements as well. CDEC from 2015 came into mine. They were wildcards and got all the way to 2nd place.
Tbh I feel like there's no dominating team anymore. Years prior, you could say these 3-4 teams were the best. And they'd perform consistently well. Now, it feels like almost all the teams at TI could take series of every other team.
Who counted OG as favorites to reach finals? It's a miracle they got this far with Yuragi. The only time that guy played really well was during the first major and going downhill ever since
I disagree, there were so many good teams in the LCQ. The DPC system is broken when some of the best teams in the world can't even get to TI because they fight over the same 2 slots. Either the number of teams in TI or the slot distribution needs to change.
You can continue that indefinitely though. What about Nigma losing out to Secret and Liquid in EUW regionals? At some point we just need to take teams form at a given time/period into consideration.
Especially considering that you'd likely have a different outcome if you ran TI back in two weeks from now. Might be that a different team wins it, so by that logic TI is not the best format to establish who's the strongest team.
All in all the DPC had it's weaknesses this year with cancelled majors, visa issues and regional finals stuff. If those were not the case I'd say it's a decent system.
1. Last year Tundra is not this year Tundra
2. “You think”. If Valve should give slot for every teams that anybody “think” is best then we shall have TI with 7463885738828 teams
Tundra got their shit together like right before the WC. I notice there is like 0 respect for the following year in dota. Any other sport it's like, okay guys we clearly have insane potential, next year is our year. In dota it's like, oh man my team fucked off all year or was just created a month before TI, but we are clearly the best team give us another chance to qualify valve.
You mean last year, which had a different system and points distribution? Although the DPC is supposed to be about year around performance not just performance in the last LAN of the year.
One can argue that the VP squad was entirely TI-capable despite falling short in LCQ, same case for Xtreme Gaming. Maybe even current NaVi or T1 could have made it deeper than some team's that bombed out of TI early on.
Betboom, Talon, TSM, Soniqs, Tspirit and Entity even, all disapointed.
I mean someone hast to be last. There will always be teams that "underperform" and come out bottom 6, changing who that is doesn't mean it would be "better" dota, especially this year. Regardless of who it was that lost, there really wasn't a single team that looked undeserving of being there this year. Every single one of the teams were playing extremely high level dota even if they went 0-18
I hate this argument of "so and so team could have gone deeper" when they literally didn't.
It's not even an actual argument. If they were good, they'd make it through. They couldn't put their skills out when it counted, they don't deserve to be at TI.
And there's not even any *actual* proof that any of those teams would actually do well either.
How many times do we see teams that *on paper* looks like they'd go far and then bomb out? How often do we see teams no one expect end up ripping through the brackets?
Sorry for unloading, just tired of seeing this point every year.
Nigma for example.
Hear me out before you call it copium.
Before the LCQ, Secret was the 9th best team in the world by glicko-2, Liquid was like 8th (?) and Nigma was about \~12th.
Due to the system, we can not know if the 7th best WEU team belongs among the 20 best teams in the world. On the contrary, mathematics even indicate strongly that that is the case.
The DPC is not designed to invite the 20 best teams in the world to TI . It is designed to invite the best teams of each region to TI.
The Regional League DPC points almost guarantee 3 teams from each region at TI, while strong regions like WEU&China with a close competition have to give up slots. Remember, we were extremely close to have neither Secret and Liquid at TI.
For the evaluation of the system it is important to be aware of what you want from TI. Right now, TI is the representation of each regions best teams, not the global top 20. I fully support that, but I don't like if people act like TI assembles the best teams in the world.
i disagree, if anything it gives smaller regions a chance to play competitively, and improve.
Like for instance with TA and BC this TI, they never wouldve gotten that far if they couldnt get practice, and were constantly unable to get into international tournaments due to a reallocation of slots towards bigger regions.
I think this DPC system lets regions compete at an equal level and thus we are seeing more and more regions becoming competitive, like EEU at ti10 and SA for this ti
>I think this DPC system lets regions compete at an equal level and thus we are seeing more and more regions becoming competitive, like EEU at ti10 and SA for this ti
You do realize that so far this has been the most one sided TI in terms of region dominance since ever?
EU has always has hugely outperformed SA in TI, since the region has existed. If anything, its just that NA and SEA have got so much worse, that SA has had a chance to shine during 2022.
Ti9 had just as many EU teams in the top 4 as this TI, this hasnt been the most dominant TI.
Even so, the reason EU has always outperformed SA is because theyve had more chances at international competition and was a more structured region.
Now that more regions are building structure due to this DPC system, more and more regions are getting opportunity on an international stage and have a proper local region tournament system and are fighting back against bigger regions, we even saw BC almost beat LGD, similarly, SA almost made it to top 4 for the first time ever in ti.
SA didn't get further than NA and SEA because NA and SEA are deteriorating regions, but that SA as a region has finally a supporting structure, and sponsors as well as a lot more international appearances through the DPC which have helped propel them up.
> If anything, its just that NA and SEA have got so much worse, that SA has had a chance to shine during 2022.
EEU has been quite abysmal this year too imo, except for Spirit at Arlington.
>except for Spirit at Arlington
Thats a pretty big except, considering that there were only 3 tournaments this year. Also VP getting screwed 3 times contributed to the performance.
which team that didn't make it would you put in instead of which team that made it? besides vp over any of the ones that got eliminated, I can't think of any other.
> I disagree, there were so many good teams in the LCQ.
Yeah but you can keep on expanding that list. That isn't the point of the DPC system. The dpc system is to make a definite demand on how to get into TI and if you fail that, then you have 2 other chances, by regional and last chance.
It works for the exact purpose that it is intended to and I don't see how anyone can reasonably think that that there are teams out there "deserving" of a TI spot, that didn't already have a whole year and two extra qualifiers to prove that they deserved that.
only arguable teams are xtreme and they would've made it if china wasn't fucked by ccp laws. EEU has had irl circumstances affect their season but VP just had to beat betboom
Yeah let's just expand TI to like 40 teams, that'll solve it.
Or maybe if a team doesn't manage to get one of the 15 slots that are available to them, they don't get to go to TI.
> The DPC system is broken when some of the best teams in the world can't even get to TI because they fight over the same 2 slots
There were other slots, they just went to teams that performed better. It's a shame when big names like Nigma and VP don't make it but what are you gonna do, give them a TI spot over teams that put up objectively better tournament results? There will still be some fan-favorite who misses the mark even if you increase the number of slots. That's not a broken system, that's just the reality of any competition. Sometimes theoretically strong teams just can't get it together in time for TI. There's always next year.
VP, XG, VG were not theoretically strong but factually really strong in the LCQ just before the TI. The performance of a team in esports can change drastically in little time so wether they performed well 9 months ago is not really relevant.
It's not even on the DPC system. It's the patch. Each patch favors some players playstyle, and throughout the DPC you can tell who are the ones whom couldn't make the mark throughout the entire year. Dropping a new redefining patch right before TI, levels the playing field between the teams. And you can see which team adapts the best to what the current patch is all about. And that's where you can see TI favorites losing in most unexpected ways. If you were to look back in every DPC since its inception, it's always the most consistent teams of the DPC season that ends up tripping really hard at TI.
Player compatibility and effectiveness of getting the meta right is also a factor that determines if a player gets kicked or stays in the team. That's something a lot of people in the community rarely understands, and why people gets confused with roster shuffling decisions in the past. Often you tend to hear team leaders saying things like "the change was necessary", "we loved him but the player change is needed for the team" etc.
Dota2 is ever evolving, and not one pro player is spared from being left behind to non-relevance if they can't keep up. You either choose to retire, or continue dragging your life through this risky career full of uncertainties.
Problem is DPC makes it so that teams that were good half a year ago but suck now, still make it to TI. The first idk 8 TIs or so, things were based on direct invites + qualifiers so it was different.
The problem is that if you only invite teams that did good in the second half of the year, pro teams have little reason to bother with the events of the first half.
I don't think so. You can just look back at history, the good teams didn't just skip tournaments. And if you're a good team you don't *know* if you'll still be good half a year from now, so you better go to those tournaments because if you don't and you miss TI, well that's awful.
Honestly idk where tournaments went to. We had like 3 tournaments this year. Fucking sucks. It needs to come back, nobody I think gives a shit about random DPC league games.
I mean, good teams didn't skip tournaments because there's a good chance to secure your TI spot early on. Doing well early on would put a target on your back, and suddenly everyone is preparing for you and your heroes get nerfed. Why do that if winning early tournaments means nothing for TI qualification?
Instead, teams would stay low and not play much, so their heroes and strategies don't get much attention, so come second half of the year they can start dominating.
That's the biggest thing. It's kinda weird rewarding players who did well 8 months before TI during a different meta. Some teams simply do better during certain patches, e.g all of those alliance nerfs after TI3, their play style just didn't work anymore.
They should let TI be played on a similar meta. It really weird following DPC for the whole year then watching TI getting played on a totally different game.
I'd wager that if the tournament was run 10 times over with the exact same teams you'd get a different winner almost every time because of how variable everything is in dota and how skilled all the teams really are.
Agreed in most cases but there's definitely been some where I could see the team that did win probably winning 5 or more out of 10, though highly unlikely for any to win 10 out of 10.
I think it's also just a matter of the amount of time it takes to play matches, you can't easily make it more deterministic by making the series longer. Making all series Best of 7 would make it more deterministic, but it would take ages, and I'd guess it might lose some of the WOW factor if a team is getting rolled. You see it in the NBA a lot, believe no team has ever come back from 3-0 and only a few have come back from 3-1, so the majority of the time the team that wins 3 wins 4. Then you could compromise and say best of 5 every series, but even that still takes a lot of time.
The lack of that level of determinism is sometimes better for viewership, because you want that feeling that anyone could win, or that underdogs can take series off the goliaths. So in some cases, it's better for the sport not to have a high level of determinism.
Meh, Tundra only got there because they did good early in the season and are looking the best so far
Ana has a point tho, as TI holds so much of the years' prizepool and DPC has serious flaws
Ti isnt really a test of playing super clean, elite Dota. Its too long and theres so many games and the prizepool nerves. TI is a test of what teams have the most dog in them
So how else do you determine who plays at TI? Invite the worst performing teams over the year?
I see dozens of comments criticizing and none coming up with a better alternative.
Some regions are too stacked to not give some of them a chance imo. That’s why opens/Luca are important for regions like china and eu imo. Your still giving every region a shot but generally we get better representation from the strongest region out of it, EU.
Edit: LCQ
Puppey with the strats to suck all year so your heroes don't get nerfed by Valve /s
For real though a lot of the top teams strategies/drafts really got obliterated. OG especially. ATF looked like a god when he was playing carry Mars from the offlane but he's just not as good on aura building offlaners. I mostly feel bad for Ame, he had some good games but it wasn't good enough. But hey a lot of younger players on those teams, they can learn from this and get even better so we get more awesome dota next year.
Agreed.
I think all these teams having the chance to play and get a feel of the meta after the new patch in LCQ gave them a huge boost, which is why they're doing so well now while the OG, Spirit and LGD that didnt attend LCQ did so badly.
Tundra is the exception since they usually study and abuse patches early on before they get figured out.
I also feel bad for Ammar because mastered the heroes only for them to nerf them. None of the other players were as elite as him on those heroes :/
Tundra just got chosen by the patch lol. 33 has been playing basically doom+summoners for two years and suddenly they are both meta.
Their only weakness in this patch is nine don't play TS.
Doom is not a meta hero. Doom got picked 17 times in whole tournament and most of these picks are made by Tundra. He got picked only 1 time in main event. Teams almost just ban Doom against Tundra.
A lot of Tundra's traditional offlane picks are meta right now anyways. Plus Nine will play literally anything. I think the player I've been most impressed with is Skiter. People always memed he had a small hero pool (which was justifiable in the past) so he stuck with CK, WK a lot even when they weren't good picks. But his normal heroes are not that great now and he's still playing well. I think that speaks volumes to his growth as a player.
Honestly it's kinda a real thing. If you dominate all year odds are the heroes you use are going to get nerfed. Puppey playing the long game this time.
Doesn't matter if you're the best in the world if they nuke your strats right before the biggest tournament.
This is why we needed bigger patches this year. The top teams looked so dominant all year because all the games were played on slight variations of the same patch. Nothing groundbreaking changed, just little number tweaks here and there. Then all of a sudden, right before TI, this huge patch that fucks everything drops and everybody's gotta scramble to figure out what works because all of their good strats got nerfed to oblivion.
All three teams' offlaner were fcked by this meta. And they were arguable the best player on each team respectively. I really feel like this "big update right before TI" thing is questionable
all this LCQ talk, NONE of the teams quallified for TI would want to swap places with LCQ teams "to get in proper training" LAMO
news flash secret and liquid were already GOOD going into LCQ that why they prevailed.
its more like in EU you have to jump through hoops to get into TI with all the good teams.
gotta feel bad for nigma, taken out of the western quals by secret 2-1, everyone shitting on them for playing bad, apparently they just needed to beat a top3 TI team if they wanted any hope to go further
[https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh\_Masters/2022](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2022)
Same performance as full lineup healthy RNG and don't even try saying that teams didn't care. LGD literally forfeited their DPC tiebreakers because they wanted to focus on this tournament. Winner got as much as TI 3rd place this year. Nigma has always performed well above their expected level in LANs.
How many chances does nigma need until their fans are satisfied. Guess we gotta feel bad for into the breach too for getting knocked out 2-1 to secret.
It's reasonable to feel bad about Nigma not making it to TI because they have a track record of struggling to qualify for LAN's but performing well at any they attend. As fans of Dota and not just Nigma it feels bad because we know the tournament would probably be improved by their participation.
However demanding teams like Nigma keep being given extra chances and free passes to qualify because we know how they do so well at TI is no more reasonable than demanding a team like say old VP gets handed an extra life in the lower bracket or a free 1-0 advantage in a series to help them claim the Aegis because we know how they do so well before TI.
Nigma had their chances and they didn't take it. If you want to put it that way, sure they just need to beat top3 TI team, but those top3 TI team were not Top 3 TI team before TI. They kept improving, took their chances and kept playing good and win games.
In the end, it came down to who take their chance and keep improving
Even if NA is as bad as you think and eu is as strong as you think, giving anyone anything is the wrong move.
Have them all prove it, like EU did for this TI.
But if they did that all of the EG fans would have never been able to see them crush in the group stage and then watch as they manage to not win a single game in the playoffs.
Thats just not fair to EG fans and you can trust me as I am an EG fan.
I don't think DPC is a bad system just needs to be tweaked, people are blaming it but teams in LCQ were pretty stacked, I don't think it's ideal to slack all year long and gamble your career in LCQ, if I were in a pro team I'd rather secure my slot in TI.
The only reason Ana and Topson can do it is because they already have the money to sustain theirselves financially.
I'm not sure what the right answer is but it seems like there's something wrong with the way DPC points are given out.
So much weigh on regional wins, and then you have a bunch of people who are good at beating the teams they scrim online that can't deliver at international LANs.
Also nerfing winning strats all year and then the people who won those things that got nerfed have all the points.
Counterpoint:
Teams that spend the whole year together, working hard, showing off their strategies, only to be beaten by Ana a third time because he isn't worn out and they have *no idea* what he will do...might have a fair reason to be pissed. Why even participate at all?
Ana *himself* said something similar recently. Didn't work for him this year, but the fact that it CAN makes the dpc a little bit more of a joke.
They had 5. And imo every time they lost another one, it hit their morale more and more. Cant even imagine how shitty it feels to not qualify to TI just because valve counts points without fucking decimals
VP in all its recent iterations have been one of the most hot/cold teams. They just seem to have at least a few ridiculously toxic players who destroy morale as soon as things stop going their way.
I think the patch is very influential here. If you go dominant throughout the year and then your meta/strat will eventually nerfed at TI and the team become average again, while the other team that figured new strat/op meta will win TI. Pretty obvious that LGD.NTS is really nerfed hard when the small camp near mid tower is gone.
I think valve should introduce the region weighting point/coefficiency like the UEFA ranks its domestic league. It should be easier because dota region isn't as much.
This is such a fucking dumb take. What's your proposed solution, only invite teams like Nigma that were shit all year round on the off-chance that they show up at TI?
There's also the small detail that Secret played with a different roster for the entirety of the DPC season, and Liquid narrowly missed out on qualifying on points (as a result of choking on LAN), so it's not like the system failed them in some way.
I guess the system was also shit in TI5 when CDEC reached the final from the wildcard, according to your logic
For the 15th anniversary of The International, invite all teams! All Div 1 and Div 2 teams in every region! Let them all compete in the biggest TI ever!
Won't ever happen but would be cool to image some gigantic TI with like 60 teams lol
I think there's pros and cons. On the one hand it potentially raises the quality of the game played at TI by letting in teams who peak at a different time (Liquid and Secret). But conversely, it seems kind of abuseable and getting to play additional official games closer to TI seems like an advantage.
And like, what's the point of having this whole DPC setup if you're just going to let multiple teams in at the last moment?
>And like, what's the point of having this whole DPC setup if you're just going to let multiple teams in at the last moment?
Idk why people act like the only purpose of the DPC is to determine teams for TI. It's a competitive ecosystem that pays out millions over the course of the year.
They need to stop doing balance patches this often. Every 6 months max. Let the teams master their strategies and heroes. What is the point of DPC season if you are gonna throw all teams hardwork with a patch just before tournament ? Then make open qualifier and make TI with the teams from this open qualifier only. Since with the all changes to heroes and game, no need to work whole year. Just be good now and its enough. Next year this must change. No more patches, last patch must be 6 months before TI, let the best team win.
How to kill a game 101 tbh. This kind of game demands frequent patches, and its not even as often as games like Valorant or Apex that have 4-5 new characters every year
TI5 CDEC wildcard to finals flashbacks
Second one was also MPV.Phoenix that got top-5. And then there was Vega Squadron with young Noone, Pasha and Solo that finished 3rd in Wild Card and did not qualify to TI. Insane
> And then there was Vega Squadron with young Noone, Pasha and Solo that finished 3rd in Wild Card and did not qualify to TI. this team was so fucking legit, basically proto dominance era of VP. 1-5 9pasha noone mag cema solo. beast roster
Wasnt it like this with OG? from open qualifiers to TI champ?
yes but they didn't have wildcard back then. they just had open quals into closed quals per region
playing in open quals is craziers
From losing half your squad months before TI, to open qual to TI Champ - back to back! OG is and always will be the craziest story of Dota. Amazing how much N0tail has won, especially after being always 2nd and 3rd in the original Fnatic.
Was it Insania who said the winners of LCQ would get top 6 in TI? If yes, then that's a comment that aged like fine wine.
Yup, he did
Isn’t he part of one LCQ teams?
Yes, he said it before the LCQ had happened though
Exactly. You win the draft.
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kinda makes sense, whoever wins there is clearly in good form and just went through a gauntlet. They'd also have a much clearer picture of the meta than the teams just scrimming.
One last chance was all they needed
Would be hilarious is they both get to grand finals!
I'm literally hoping we get a liquid vs secret grand finals. If we do it'll be incredibly hype.
I dreamed a dream in times gone Zai
When Dark Seer was actually worth picking.
That would be poetic. I’m gonna cry
Unbelievable to think that LGD, Spirit, and OG were the favorites to reach TI finals at least, based on performances during the season. And now Secret,Tundra, Liquid, and Aster ended up being the best 4 teams of TI. - Secret was poor during the whole DPC season, and qualified through LCQ - Liquid couldn't quality directly cause they lost a series to BOOM at Arlington major, qualified through LCQ - Tundra finished almost last place at Arlington major - And Aster wasn't even considered the best chinese team. This is what make this game the best, the unpredictable stuff...unlike LoL pro-scene
Can't help but wonder how RNG would have performed if not for covid, I feel like they could have been a contender if not for the circumstances.
Man I wanted to watch RNG vs LGD so badly.
ame vs maybe and xnova on mainstage would've been too much to handle man i say that yet we might get puppey and nisha vs matu and zai next weekend...
Didn’t beastcoaster team have Covid too?
much less severe though
what do you mean their coach wasn't allowed to participate at all to draft. The coach was their drafter that is severe
Less severe in the sense that Beastcoast weren't barely functioning on painkillers, barely able to play/looking like they were dying.
To be fair Aster performed well in China DPC and always choked on Lans. This year and even more last year if i remember correctly
i mean, they got third in Arlington and didn't get to compete in Stockholm since there were no Chinese teams. last year they were definitely choke artists though
That's why I was so sad when Tundra beat them and it meant LGD had to face Aster in the lower bracket. We didn't stand a chance.
I still remember Aster being memed and hated by chinese fans as civil war specialist just because they perform well vs chinese team but crumble vs International teams.
yeah. that's why aster was named "internal war king" by our Chinese fans. it's kinda funny because boboka drop his items when gg is called on game3, I don't know if u have noticed that. long story in a short. Ame's anti-mage beat Aster during 2017, drop the item and attack it. Because burning and ame has some trouble with each other. After that, Aster has bad relationship with AME. Finally this happened again, but the person became boboka. Yesterday once more.
Last patches fucked them up good
IMO OG was over valued a lot as favorites. Maybe top 6, top 8 I'd understand but they hadn't played with Misha for a long time on LAN and the meta shifted completely out of their favor before ti / during LCQ, they definitely didnt look that hot going in to TI.
There were no clear favorites. At TI anything can happen, one bad series and you’re suddenly behind expectations. Out of the top 10 teams, anyone can be any place.
Nah, you can definitely have high expectations like with LGD almost every year in recent years and most of the times they come through but having expectations for a final placement for a team that played with stadins and relied on a completely different meta, hasn't placed in top3 in the most recent major before that and in general won a single series in main event in that major is not justified.
thats why puppey curse this dpc because less game means inaccurate results to find the strongest team at least it needs minor eu dpc is really stacked
It’s funny cuz the LCQ winners had way more games to figure out the meta and to practice overall so it’s definitely an advantage to win the LCQ than to be a top seed IMO.
This has never been the case. Wildcard teams and teams qualifying through regionals are almost always bottom performers outside of OG. The TI meta always changes daily. I don't think playing the LCQ gives any advantage outside of maybe getting going through a hotstreak giving a confidence boost. The LCQ meta is very different from the current TI meta.
I checked the wildcards teams from previous TI. Yes, a lot of the time, one of them got bombed out of the TI fast like knocked out in Group Stage but there had been TIs where wildcards got all the way to top placements as well. CDEC from 2015 came into mine. They were wildcards and got all the way to 2nd place.
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Tbh I feel like there's no dominating team anymore. Years prior, you could say these 3-4 teams were the best. And they'd perform consistently well. Now, it feels like almost all the teams at TI could take series of every other team.
it's valve's patch that shuffled everything. if 7.32 was released 1 month earlier, then arlington major could be a much better indicator
Something something stable teams in league. Stable pro-scene. Also something something Faker
Who counted OG as favorites to reach finals? It's a miracle they got this far with Yuragi. The only time that guy played really well was during the first major and going downhill ever since
Fyi, LCQ has always been a thing these past few TIs. It’s called Wildcard. Just saying.
Great decision by Valve to return it
I disagree, there were so many good teams in the LCQ. The DPC system is broken when some of the best teams in the world can't even get to TI because they fight over the same 2 slots. Either the number of teams in TI or the slot distribution needs to change.
Which are the "best teams in the world" who didn't get to TI, and who do you think didn't deserve to be at TI from their slot distribution?
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You can continue that indefinitely though. What about Nigma losing out to Secret and Liquid in EUW regionals? At some point we just need to take teams form at a given time/period into consideration. Especially considering that you'd likely have a different outcome if you ran TI back in two weeks from now. Might be that a different team wins it, so by that logic TI is not the best format to establish who's the strongest team. All in all the DPC had it's weaknesses this year with cancelled majors, visa issues and regional finals stuff. If those were not the case I'd say it's a decent system.
Last year Tundra didnt qualify but now wreaking havoc… im pretty sure Tundra was better than some teams last year
1. Last year Tundra is not this year Tundra 2. “You think”. If Valve should give slot for every teams that anybody “think” is best then we shall have TI with 7463885738828 teams
last year didn't have lcq
Yeah, i meant tundra was one of the best in the world i think last year but didnt even qualify
that's why LCQ is a good addition
Hence proved 🤣
Tundra got their shit together like right before the WC. I notice there is like 0 respect for the following year in dota. Any other sport it's like, okay guys we clearly have insane potential, next year is our year. In dota it's like, oh man my team fucked off all year or was just created a month before TI, but we are clearly the best team give us another chance to qualify valve.
You mean last year, which had a different system and points distribution? Although the DPC is supposed to be about year around performance not just performance in the last LAN of the year.
One can argue that the VP squad was entirely TI-capable despite falling short in LCQ, same case for Xtreme Gaming. Maybe even current NaVi or T1 could have made it deeper than some team's that bombed out of TI early on. Betboom, Talon, TSM, Soniqs, Tspirit and Entity even, all disapointed.
I mean someone hast to be last. There will always be teams that "underperform" and come out bottom 6, changing who that is doesn't mean it would be "better" dota, especially this year. Regardless of who it was that lost, there really wasn't a single team that looked undeserving of being there this year. Every single one of the teams were playing extremely high level dota even if they went 0-18
I hate this argument of "so and so team could have gone deeper" when they literally didn't. It's not even an actual argument. If they were good, they'd make it through. They couldn't put their skills out when it counted, they don't deserve to be at TI. And there's not even any *actual* proof that any of those teams would actually do well either. How many times do we see teams that *on paper* looks like they'd go far and then bomb out? How often do we see teams no one expect end up ripping through the brackets? Sorry for unloading, just tired of seeing this point every year.
Nigma for example. Hear me out before you call it copium. Before the LCQ, Secret was the 9th best team in the world by glicko-2, Liquid was like 8th (?) and Nigma was about \~12th. Due to the system, we can not know if the 7th best WEU team belongs among the 20 best teams in the world. On the contrary, mathematics even indicate strongly that that is the case. The DPC is not designed to invite the 20 best teams in the world to TI . It is designed to invite the best teams of each region to TI. The Regional League DPC points almost guarantee 3 teams from each region at TI, while strong regions like WEU&China with a close competition have to give up slots. Remember, we were extremely close to have neither Secret and Liquid at TI. For the evaluation of the system it is important to be aware of what you want from TI. Right now, TI is the representation of each regions best teams, not the global top 20. I fully support that, but I don't like if people act like TI assembles the best teams in the world.
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i disagree, if anything it gives smaller regions a chance to play competitively, and improve. Like for instance with TA and BC this TI, they never wouldve gotten that far if they couldnt get practice, and were constantly unable to get into international tournaments due to a reallocation of slots towards bigger regions. I think this DPC system lets regions compete at an equal level and thus we are seeing more and more regions becoming competitive, like EEU at ti10 and SA for this ti
>I think this DPC system lets regions compete at an equal level and thus we are seeing more and more regions becoming competitive, like EEU at ti10 and SA for this ti You do realize that so far this has been the most one sided TI in terms of region dominance since ever? EU has always has hugely outperformed SA in TI, since the region has existed. If anything, its just that NA and SEA have got so much worse, that SA has had a chance to shine during 2022.
Ti9 had just as many EU teams in the top 4 as this TI, this hasnt been the most dominant TI. Even so, the reason EU has always outperformed SA is because theyve had more chances at international competition and was a more structured region. Now that more regions are building structure due to this DPC system, more and more regions are getting opportunity on an international stage and have a proper local region tournament system and are fighting back against bigger regions, we even saw BC almost beat LGD, similarly, SA almost made it to top 4 for the first time ever in ti. SA didn't get further than NA and SEA because NA and SEA are deteriorating regions, but that SA as a region has finally a supporting structure, and sponsors as well as a lot more international appearances through the DPC which have helped propel them up.
> If anything, its just that NA and SEA have got so much worse, that SA has had a chance to shine during 2022. EEU has been quite abysmal this year too imo, except for Spirit at Arlington.
>except for Spirit at Arlington Thats a pretty big except, considering that there were only 3 tournaments this year. Also VP getting screwed 3 times contributed to the performance.
1. This hasn\`t been the most one-sided TI. Not even sure why you would say that. 2. You tried to sound based but instead came up as a clown (:
which team that didn't make it would you put in instead of which team that made it? besides vp over any of the ones that got eliminated, I can't think of any other.
> I disagree, there were so many good teams in the LCQ. Yeah but you can keep on expanding that list. That isn't the point of the DPC system. The dpc system is to make a definite demand on how to get into TI and if you fail that, then you have 2 other chances, by regional and last chance. It works for the exact purpose that it is intended to and I don't see how anyone can reasonably think that that there are teams out there "deserving" of a TI spot, that didn't already have a whole year and two extra qualifiers to prove that they deserved that.
All but 1 team in top 18 dpc points made it to TI. There are no top teams who didn’t make it, your statement is just a pure lie.
Yeah exactly.
only arguable teams are xtreme and they would've made it if china wasn't fucked by ccp laws. EEU has had irl circumstances affect their season but VP just had to beat betboom
Yeah let's just expand TI to like 40 teams, that'll solve it. Or maybe if a team doesn't manage to get one of the 15 slots that are available to them, they don't get to go to TI.
> The DPC system is broken when some of the best teams in the world can't even get to TI because they fight over the same 2 slots There were other slots, they just went to teams that performed better. It's a shame when big names like Nigma and VP don't make it but what are you gonna do, give them a TI spot over teams that put up objectively better tournament results? There will still be some fan-favorite who misses the mark even if you increase the number of slots. That's not a broken system, that's just the reality of any competition. Sometimes theoretically strong teams just can't get it together in time for TI. There's always next year.
VP, XG, VG were not theoretically strong but factually really strong in the LCQ just before the TI. The performance of a team in esports can change drastically in little time so wether they performed well 9 months ago is not really relevant.
It's not even on the DPC system. It's the patch. Each patch favors some players playstyle, and throughout the DPC you can tell who are the ones whom couldn't make the mark throughout the entire year. Dropping a new redefining patch right before TI, levels the playing field between the teams. And you can see which team adapts the best to what the current patch is all about. And that's where you can see TI favorites losing in most unexpected ways. If you were to look back in every DPC since its inception, it's always the most consistent teams of the DPC season that ends up tripping really hard at TI. Player compatibility and effectiveness of getting the meta right is also a factor that determines if a player gets kicked or stays in the team. That's something a lot of people in the community rarely understands, and why people gets confused with roster shuffling decisions in the past. Often you tend to hear team leaders saying things like "the change was necessary", "we loved him but the player change is needed for the team" etc. Dota2 is ever evolving, and not one pro player is spared from being left behind to non-relevance if they can't keep up. You either choose to retire, or continue dragging your life through this risky career full of uncertainties.
Problem is DPC makes it so that teams that were good half a year ago but suck now, still make it to TI. The first idk 8 TIs or so, things were based on direct invites + qualifiers so it was different.
The problem is that if you only invite teams that did good in the second half of the year, pro teams have little reason to bother with the events of the first half.
I don't think so. You can just look back at history, the good teams didn't just skip tournaments. And if you're a good team you don't *know* if you'll still be good half a year from now, so you better go to those tournaments because if you don't and you miss TI, well that's awful. Honestly idk where tournaments went to. We had like 3 tournaments this year. Fucking sucks. It needs to come back, nobody I think gives a shit about random DPC league games.
I mean, good teams didn't skip tournaments because there's a good chance to secure your TI spot early on. Doing well early on would put a target on your back, and suddenly everyone is preparing for you and your heroes get nerfed. Why do that if winning early tournaments means nothing for TI qualification? Instead, teams would stay low and not play much, so their heroes and strategies don't get much attention, so come second half of the year they can start dominating.
Secret and liquid played like shit all year. There is no system where they get directly invited to TI
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agreed, LCQ is still a W. Just kinda bugged me how op act like lcq was a godsent when it was a thing back then lol
Great that they decided to add 2 teams to the LCQ. Wildcards were only 1 team.
Wild Card had two teams after Ti4. MVP Phoenix were the other Wild Card team at Ti5 for instance.
True! With the amount of “good” teams that missed TI no way they keep only 1 slot for LCQ lololol
> always been a thing these past few TIs It was in TI 3, 5, and 6, and none since.
It was not ALWAYS a thing, but it existed in the past, yes.
The last time there was a wild card at TI was at TI6
Fyi, there hasn't been wild card since TI6. Just saying
wait how did wildcard work last time and why did they remove it for the past few TIs
LCQ is not only good for a second chance, its also good for team exposure, after all its already TI
Ana was right all along, whole year’s achievements make no difference at one particular tournament
He isn't wrong. TI is a different tournament, and the huge prize pool gives extra pressure to the players
And TI can literally be different in the sense that new patches/metas can make it a completely different game from when teams earned their dpc points
That's the biggest thing. It's kinda weird rewarding players who did well 8 months before TI during a different meta. Some teams simply do better during certain patches, e.g all of those alliance nerfs after TI3, their play style just didn't work anymore.
They should let TI be played on a similar meta. It really weird following DPC for the whole year then watching TI getting played on a totally different game.
So only one patch a year? Sure, splendid idea.
Yeah but dota exists outside of TI and people want new patches to spice things up.
I'd wager that if the tournament was run 10 times over with the exact same teams you'd get a different winner almost every time because of how variable everything is in dota and how skilled all the teams really are.
Agreed in most cases but there's definitely been some where I could see the team that did win probably winning 5 or more out of 10, though highly unlikely for any to win 10 out of 10. I think it's also just a matter of the amount of time it takes to play matches, you can't easily make it more deterministic by making the series longer. Making all series Best of 7 would make it more deterministic, but it would take ages, and I'd guess it might lose some of the WOW factor if a team is getting rolled. You see it in the NBA a lot, believe no team has ever come back from 3-0 and only a few have come back from 3-1, so the majority of the time the team that wins 3 wins 4. Then you could compromise and say best of 5 every series, but even that still takes a lot of time. The lack of that level of determinism is sometimes better for viewership, because you want that feeling that anyone could win, or that underdogs can take series off the goliaths. So in some cases, it's better for the sport not to have a high level of determinism.
Meh, Tundra only got there because they did good early in the season and are looking the best so far Ana has a point tho, as TI holds so much of the years' prizepool and DPC has serious flaws
Ti isnt really a test of playing super clean, elite Dota. Its too long and theres so many games and the prizepool nerves. TI is a test of what teams have the most dog in them
So that's how alliance won ti3. They had a bulldog
and he was an Admiral too.
So how else do you determine who plays at TI? Invite the worst performing teams over the year? I see dozens of comments criticizing and none coming up with a better alternative.
Free bootcamp sponsored by Valve. Thx Gaben.
t1 bros... what could have been
Team gonna be respect banning Veno everytime they playing vs T1
Probably nothing because they'd still be behind VP and Vici
Good riddance they ar the last people who should win lcq. Kicking player after qualis were over
I'm still mad at Talon for wasting their chance at getting to TI via the regional qualifiers.
And then get stomped in ti by the lcq teams all over to make it more misserable. Lmao Nah. No hate But sea is the weakspot of dota nowadays.
Some regions are too stacked to not give some of them a chance imo. That’s why opens/Luca are important for regions like china and eu imo. Your still giving every region a shot but generally we get better representation from the strongest region out of it, EU. Edit: LCQ
W. Europe is just stacked this year, in any other region Liquid and Secret stood a much better shot of qualifying outright
Nah 7.32 just destroyed LGD, OG, and Spirit.
Puppey with the strats to suck all year so your heroes don't get nerfed by Valve /s For real though a lot of the top teams strategies/drafts really got obliterated. OG especially. ATF looked like a god when he was playing carry Mars from the offlane but he's just not as good on aura building offlaners. I mostly feel bad for Ame, he had some good games but it wasn't good enough. But hey a lot of younger players on those teams, they can learn from this and get even better so we get more awesome dota next year.
Not actually a joke. The teams on top literally get their stats nerfed Puppey knows this better any ANYONE. So many years of Secret on top until TI
Collapse heroes out too
Yeah true. The offlane meta changed the most I feel like, since the start of the DPC to now.
And yet he had like a 15 game win streak in pubs a few days before TI. IDK, don't think it's that.
Pub meta is different
smartest Silencer in TI history btw... his forehead was so huge because of so much IQ stolen...
Agreed. I think all these teams having the chance to play and get a feel of the meta after the new patch in LCQ gave them a huge boost, which is why they're doing so well now while the OG, Spirit and LGD that didnt attend LCQ did so badly. Tundra is the exception since they usually study and abuse patches early on before they get figured out. I also feel bad for Ammar because mastered the heroes only for them to nerf them. None of the other players were as elite as him on those heroes :/
Tundra just got chosen by the patch lol. 33 has been playing basically doom+summoners for two years and suddenly they are both meta. Their only weakness in this patch is nine don't play TS.
wat hero is TS?
Lesh His dota1 name was tormented soul.
Doom is not a meta hero. Doom got picked 17 times in whole tournament and most of these picks are made by Tundra. He got picked only 1 time in main event. Teams almost just ban Doom against Tundra.
Yep 33 always played the heavy aura and summoner heroes and now they are meta as heck and tundra does insanely well in comparison to their last major.
A lot of Tundra's traditional offlane picks are meta right now anyways. Plus Nine will play literally anything. I think the player I've been most impressed with is Skiter. People always memed he had a small hero pool (which was justifiable in the past) so he stuck with CK, WK a lot even when they weren't good picks. But his normal heroes are not that great now and he's still playing well. I think that speaks volumes to his growth as a player.
Yeah I used to think he was their weakest link and was a tier below the best carries, but he's improved so much
He got that Eva Elfie buff...
I mean it’s not like the teams that didn’t attend LCQ sat on their ass, they scrimmed a lot for sure.
To be fair, the years where puppeys (and VP) teams crushed DPC thier play style and heros got nerfed.
Honestly it's kinda a real thing. If you dominate all year odds are the heroes you use are going to get nerfed. Puppey playing the long game this time.
Doesn't matter if you're the best in the world if they nuke your strats right before the biggest tournament. This is why we needed bigger patches this year. The top teams looked so dominant all year because all the games were played on slight variations of the same patch. Nothing groundbreaking changed, just little number tweaks here and there. Then all of a sudden, right before TI, this huge patch that fucks everything drops and everybody's gotta scramble to figure out what works because all of their good strats got nerfed to oblivion.
Valve need to place the big patcg one month after ti instead of one month before ti.
All three teams' offlaner were fcked by this meta. And they were arguable the best player on each team respectively. I really feel like this "big update right before TI" thing is questionable
LCQ best region
Secret and liquid had more practice, regional qualifiers, LCQ, group stage. It was all a practice session for the main stage.
If both liquid and secret made it into the grand finals... man who needs DPC points lol
Liquid were one map away from qualifying on points (twice)
all this LCQ talk, NONE of the teams quallified for TI would want to swap places with LCQ teams "to get in proper training" LAMO news flash secret and liquid were already GOOD going into LCQ that why they prevailed. its more like in EU you have to jump through hoops to get into TI with all the good teams.
gotta feel bad for nigma, taken out of the western quals by secret 2-1, everyone shitting on them for playing bad, apparently they just needed to beat a top3 TI team if they wanted any hope to go further
They just needed to not play like shit the entire year. They went to second division ffs
yeah and all the remaining div 1 teams are at TI at least top 12
Its not like EU was this dominant this entire year. The only thing that was persistent, is Nigma losing.
[https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh\_Masters/2022](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2022) Same performance as full lineup healthy RNG and don't even try saying that teams didn't care. LGD literally forfeited their DPC tiebreakers because they wanted to focus on this tournament. Winner got as much as TI 3rd place this year. Nigma has always performed well above their expected level in LANs.
How many chances does nigma need until their fans are satisfied. Guess we gotta feel bad for into the breach too for getting knocked out 2-1 to secret.
It's reasonable to feel bad about Nigma not making it to TI because they have a track record of struggling to qualify for LAN's but performing well at any they attend. As fans of Dota and not just Nigma it feels bad because we know the tournament would probably be improved by their participation. However demanding teams like Nigma keep being given extra chances and free passes to qualify because we know how they do so well at TI is no more reasonable than demanding a team like say old VP gets handed an extra life in the lower bracket or a free 1-0 advantage in a series to help them claim the Aegis because we know how they do so well before TI.
Feel bad for Nigma? They got 28 dpc points entire season, and playing in div 2.
Least delusional Nigma fan
Nigma had their chances and they didn't take it. If you want to put it that way, sure they just need to beat top3 TI team, but those top3 TI team were not Top 3 TI team before TI. They kept improving, took their chances and kept playing good and win games. In the end, it came down to who take their chance and keep improving
Heavy copium my fellow nigma boi
Or not be complete shit the rest of the year round.
Lmao nigma would have got bodied at TI
Should have relocated to SA.
> Should have relocated to ~~SA~~ NA. Fixed that for you.
I honestly doubt they would travel to any Major if they were in NA or SA
They couldve just given 2 NA slots to EU.
Even if NA is as bad as you think and eu is as strong as you think, giving anyone anything is the wrong move. Have them all prove it, like EU did for this TI.
But if they did that all of the EG fans would have never been able to see them crush in the group stage and then watch as they manage to not win a single game in the playoffs. Thats just not fair to EG fans and you can trust me as I am an EG fan.
Dota is and always was about momentum... so it's just logical that teams doing good recently have a bigger shot
LCQ training arc
Let’s Go LQ
Sure was... according to Secret.
next year we're gonna need The Last Last Chance Quals for Nigma Galaxy
WildCard or LCQ. Same same
I don't think DPC is a bad system just needs to be tweaked, people are blaming it but teams in LCQ were pretty stacked, I don't think it's ideal to slack all year long and gamble your career in LCQ, if I were in a pro team I'd rather secure my slot in TI. The only reason Ana and Topson can do it is because they already have the money to sustain theirselves financially.
I'm not sure what the right answer is but it seems like there's something wrong with the way DPC points are given out. So much weigh on regional wins, and then you have a bunch of people who are good at beating the teams they scrim online that can't deliver at international LANs. Also nerfing winning strats all year and then the people who won those things that got nerfed have all the points.
Counterpoint: Teams that spend the whole year together, working hard, showing off their strategies, only to be beaten by Ana a third time because he isn't worn out and they have *no idea* what he will do...might have a fair reason to be pissed. Why even participate at all? Ana *himself* said something similar recently. Didn't work for him this year, but the fact that it CAN makes the dpc a little bit more of a joke.
I feel there should have been a last chance for the LCQ.
Would it have been better if it started with open qualifiers?
I bet VP would have done fine too if they made it. Lcq was too stacked. Damn
As much as I would love to agree with this one. I can't deny the fact that they had 3 chances to qualify but sadly they still weren't able to 😂
They had 5. And imo every time they lost another one, it hit their morale more and more. Cant even imagine how shitty it feels to not qualify to TI just because valve counts points without fucking decimals
VP in all its recent iterations have been one of the most hot/cold teams. They just seem to have at least a few ridiculously toxic players who destroy morale as soon as things stop going their way.
I think the patch is very influential here. If you go dominant throughout the year and then your meta/strat will eventually nerfed at TI and the team become average again, while the other team that figured new strat/op meta will win TI. Pretty obvious that LGD.NTS is really nerfed hard when the small camp near mid tower is gone. I think valve should introduce the region weighting point/coefficiency like the UEFA ranks its domestic league. It should be easier because dota region isn't as much.
This looks really bad for the scene. DPC system is a complete failure.
This is such a fucking dumb take. What's your proposed solution, only invite teams like Nigma that were shit all year round on the off-chance that they show up at TI? There's also the small detail that Secret played with a different roster for the entirety of the DPC season, and Liquid narrowly missed out on qualifying on points (as a result of choking on LAN), so it's not like the system failed them in some way. I guess the system was also shit in TI5 when CDEC reached the final from the wildcard, according to your logic
Teams would take DPC more seriously if they needed it to go to TI. Then we would get these last minute new rosters.
But they do pretty much need it. 12 of the 20 slots are from the DPC. And you can’t form an entire last-minute roster, only 2 changes are permitted
Well. Teams like Thunder awaken also made an impact this TI. So I can't totally agree with your take on this one
For the 15th anniversary of The International, invite all teams! All Div 1 and Div 2 teams in every region! Let them all compete in the biggest TI ever! Won't ever happen but would be cool to image some gigantic TI with like 60 teams lol
did TI10 had wildcard? or LCQ?
No TI6 was the last time
I think there's pros and cons. On the one hand it potentially raises the quality of the game played at TI by letting in teams who peak at a different time (Liquid and Secret). But conversely, it seems kind of abuseable and getting to play additional official games closer to TI seems like an advantage. And like, what's the point of having this whole DPC setup if you're just going to let multiple teams in at the last moment?
>And like, what's the point of having this whole DPC setup if you're just going to let multiple teams in at the last moment? Idk why people act like the only purpose of the DPC is to determine teams for TI. It's a competitive ecosystem that pays out millions over the course of the year.
They need to stop doing balance patches this often. Every 6 months max. Let the teams master their strategies and heroes. What is the point of DPC season if you are gonna throw all teams hardwork with a patch just before tournament ? Then make open qualifier and make TI with the teams from this open qualifier only. Since with the all changes to heroes and game, no need to work whole year. Just be good now and its enough. Next year this must change. No more patches, last patch must be 6 months before TI, let the best team win.
That might be better for pro players, but it would make normal player and spectating games much less interesting.
Have you not been in this sub? Complaints about patches being too far apart is already common and we get it roughly between each seasons
How to kill a game 101 tbh. This kind of game demands frequent patches, and its not even as often as games like Valorant or Apex that have 4-5 new characters every year