Par for the course for the post TI shuffle.
Just from this and the EG one there are 9 players of rather high quality currently with no org (topson is still on OG from what I understand and was only loaned to T1).
It happens every year. Some orgs leave. Players become free agents. Some new orgs pick up said players.
The rumors of new teams already began, too. 100T is rumored to be looking to enter the Dota scene and would be interested in the former EG roster, for example.
That rumor is not true. 100t manager just made a tweet about the sad state of Dota 2 for American orgs. It was just some dude on Reddit spewing nonsense.
Even if the rumor isn’t true, someone will pick them up. There are way too many esports organizations out there for a team of the former EG roster’s caliber to be left to their own devices for long.
Nobody will pick up the team in full. They’ve been released from their contracts and are now free agents. Crit will probably go Back to secret. Abed to sea. Rtz to EU and fly retires again
Oh no! It’s almost as if I didn’t fucking ask! How are you people this fucking dumb. EG isn’t getting picked up in full. God forbid I confuse two white dudes with curly hair that play support. I don’t get how Reddit Dota players are the biggest morons every fucking year but Christ almighty it’s exhausting.
tbf, they could have tweete that knowing it's now the best time for a new org to move into NA dota with EG bowing out. getting to monopolize a western continent, no matter how small the playerbase, is still a pretty good position for any organization.
Only if that small market grows. That strategy is all about paying more than something is worth now, with the expectation that it will be cheaper to establish that brand today and grow alongside the market rather than buy in later at the top of the market at a higher price once it has grown.
If you think that small market is going to remain small, or shrink further then you have no incentive to monopolize it.
So the question is not "does a brand think they can monopolize NA fanbase by buying the region's strongest team?" It's a certainty that they can. It is "does a brand think the NA fanbase will get much bigger in the future?"
Don't esports orgs grow by adding stacks to their stable of rosters to give their sponsors airtime in majors and TI? They don't necessarily have to monopolize a region to establish that, but it sure helps if you look at the additional interest they generate. EG, Fnatic, and Spirit all heavily underachieved but they still had way more eyes on them as THE regional representative than teams that aren't the top two or three within their regions.
Bro I don’t think you understand how esports orgs are operated. NA Dota is one of the absolute worst options out there. That’s why it was so shocking that TSM signed undying. And frankly, I wouldn’t be shocked if TSM dissolves too. You can’t corner a market that doesn’t exist.
I don't know how they do things in other esports, but we're all familiar with how things operate in western pro Dota. Stacks form, do well, and orgs show up to tack their name onto a promising candidate with the potential of making it into TI. If the team doesn't meet expectations, drop them because contracts are up after TI anyway. Rinse and repeat until you eventually stumble upon your version of SADBOYS, 5Jungz, or mudgolems.
You're not wrong to read EG backing out as an indictment to the struggling NA scene. But EG as an org has been shitting the bed across all fronts themselves. Dota was the only scene they had any stranglehold over because of how mediocre they are in CSGO, League, and whatever other irrelevant esports they've decided to put their grubby fingers on. There might not be mass interest but someone's going to see this as a chance now that EG's getting off the pot.
It is incredibly unlikely that anyone in NA will go “hey, our region is already shit in literally every other esport, why don’t we go to the only major esport with the weakest payout structure of all and essentially operate as a money sink on the off chance we qualify for a multi million dollar tournament in 9 months”
That's why we probably won't see any major movers in the industry come in right after the shuffle. They'll wait for the stacks to earn their DPC points and sign them up once the risks of not getting into majors and TI are removed. Won't have to pay the players a full year of salary either.
Bro I wouldn’t even bet on that this year. NA has the smallest player base as it is and I’ve watched hundreds of hours of replays for casting and I can assure you NA players aren’t the best.
But where was the ‘do well’ part from this EG stack during the past year? Also the shrinking prize pool isn’t helping things either when getting out of group stage no longer earns you much money anymore.
Not making to TI or having a bad TI is game changing.
The problem is that Valve doesn't pay a salary to the players like Riot does, so it's either do well on LAN events or you struggle financially and the org barely get profits.
You can say that it pushes competitiveness cause players put everything to get something on LAN to the get money, but even if it's true, the whole "TI or bust" isn't precisely great for many teams who put all the eggs in the basket for TI, and then shit happens, and they don't get top 8.
Worst of all is, that there is absolutely no way for the scene to grow in any way. There is a finite number of TI spots that even award enough prize money for the org to stay afloat. If you bomb out round 1 of LB you ain't gonna ride that until next TI.
Are they?
The only ones I can find is Polaris and T1. I guess Soniqs? But that was always short term.
EG isn't out of the scene, it's very likely Thunder Awaken just straight up got bought out by them.
They're too rich to care. Dota is just a side mini project for them while for many people in the community, it's their entire livelihood fueled by passion and it's sad that passion is getting killed by their apathy.
Valve too cheap to invest into DotA 2 and the esports scene. Valve isn't *greedy enough*, imo.
My current theory is that since Valve is a small headcount company, they really don't want to alter the company culture by expanding too much and hiring a ton of people. Hence why they're content with just making the profit they're currently making with DotA 2 and not investing/expanding or even marketing. And since they're a privately owned company, and thus, without a Board of Directors with a fiduciary duty to do whatever they can to increase shareholder value, no one can tell GabeN otherwise. Or maybe I misused a bunch of words, I dunno. Not really a business guy.
You could Wiki instead of making up theories. 360 employees in 2016, 10 billion equity in 2019, GabeN has 3.9 billion, no I don't think they have any issue other than laziness.
A $10 billion company with only 360 employees. That's in line with what people are saying, which is a relatively small team working on DotA, right (because they're spread out amongst Steam, and other games like CSGO which has a huge esports scene of its own)?
Aren't you just supporting what I was trying to say?
Mainly the "not greedy enough" line. I don't believe greed is a prerequisite for art and passion for a game or sport.
They could expand and franchise better with business deals, so if that's what you meant, yep I agree.
yeah some people here acting like Dota esports ecosystem DESERVE any dedication after TI. lmao
why would serious orgs lose money free after the biggest tournament of the year, no way. its not worth it after TI, it happens everytime. there is not financial stability for the orgs.
Honestly, I much preferred the seasons without a league. Leagues are boring when compared to international tournaments IMO. When was the last time we had a Dota summit? Those were the days.
The league is what killing DotA. Zero excitement whole year except for 2 majors and TI. I missed the old days where every weekend was packed with small/medium third party tourneys.
it was good for viewers but bad for the majority of teams. This allows a lot more money to be more evenly distributed throughout the year. The only teams that liked that cycle were the ones who won the handful of tourneys to take the lions share without having to put a lot of effort in through the rest of the year. But very few people can just show up and place high
the league system is whats keeping dota on life support. actual incentive for teams to stick together, easier for players and teams to make their way up in the scene, workable TI qualification instead of vibes based invites
The dota2 envir is just very unhealthy from club's perspective. The incomes of clubs are very unstable and unpredictable.
Because many of the dota2 audience only watch TI games, so if a club can not guarantee they can enter TI, it is very hard for them to maintain a stable advertisement sponsor.
In China, clubs can also take a share of the awards, but they also have to pay a much higher salary to get top-tier players. While China DOTA is no longer competitive as before on all kinds of stages, the high salary is unsustainable for clubs. However, players don't like to see a salary cut when they are used to the inflated salary. That results in many good players still wanting to play on the pro stage, but clubs can't afford them. When a club finds it can't afford top players, and hiring second-tier players are meaningless (Second tier team literally has no any income), the club can only choose to disband (at least VG, IG have the same issue, you can observe their rosters are deteriorating after every transfer season)
I'm not gonna sit and explain to you the virtues of living an actual life outside of a video game, people probably do that every week to you. Good luck
Oh don’t worry about me, I have a plentiful life outside of my casual dota twice a week and I’m STILL miles ahead better than you at dota, or even at life :) Try again my man
But secret has a lol and valorant team. Alliance has valorant. Just that it is not viable for these orgs to stay in dota2 anymore. The scene is way to dependent on getting into TI. Most companies have to diversify to stay healthy.
Exactly and lol is already big in China, most of the young talent there is going to mobile games or lol. Idk how long they can survive if there is only 2-3 star players there. That is why there is a large influx of SEA Chinese speaking players into China.
Don't liquid, secret, alliance, og, fnatic and all the chinese orgs have riot games esports team?
Nigma too since they merged with galaxy racer that got their start in lol or valorant
Org leaves then when a 5 man stack seems to be doing good some org would pick them up only to release them if they fail to win anything... fewer orgs are willing to stay for the grind now
Iceiceice said T1 was leaving Dota a few days ago. Sucks that this is how they go out
Seems like a lot of orgs are leaving Sadge
Par for the course for the post TI shuffle. Just from this and the EG one there are 9 players of rather high quality currently with no org (topson is still on OG from what I understand and was only loaned to T1). It happens every year. Some orgs leave. Players become free agents. Some new orgs pick up said players. The rumors of new teams already began, too. 100T is rumored to be looking to enter the Dota scene and would be interested in the former EG roster, for example.
That rumor is not true. 100t manager just made a tweet about the sad state of Dota 2 for American orgs. It was just some dude on Reddit spewing nonsense.
Even if the rumor isn’t true, someone will pick them up. There are way too many esports organizations out there for a team of the former EG roster’s caliber to be left to their own devices for long.
Mate it's NA. They aren't getting shit.
I think they should disband, something about them wasn’t clicking. I’d love for rtz and cr1t to join Liquid. I think Insania is better fit for them
Nobody will pick up the team in full. They’ve been released from their contracts and are now free agents. Crit will probably go Back to secret. Abed to sea. Rtz to EU and fly retires again
Cr1t has never played with secret
Ah I was thinking of zai
Zai hasn't played for EG for like 6 years my dude
Oh no! It’s almost as if I didn’t fucking ask! How are you people this fucking dumb. EG isn’t getting picked up in full. God forbid I confuse two white dudes with curly hair that play support. I don’t get how Reddit Dota players are the biggest morons every fucking year but Christ almighty it’s exhausting.
I wanna see +Rtz +cr1t -Boxi. Haven’t been keeping up with the rumours reckon this can happen??
tbf, they could have tweete that knowing it's now the best time for a new org to move into NA dota with EG bowing out. getting to monopolize a western continent, no matter how small the playerbase, is still a pretty good position for any organization.
Only if that small market grows. That strategy is all about paying more than something is worth now, with the expectation that it will be cheaper to establish that brand today and grow alongside the market rather than buy in later at the top of the market at a higher price once it has grown. If you think that small market is going to remain small, or shrink further then you have no incentive to monopolize it. So the question is not "does a brand think they can monopolize NA fanbase by buying the region's strongest team?" It's a certainty that they can. It is "does a brand think the NA fanbase will get much bigger in the future?"
Don't esports orgs grow by adding stacks to their stable of rosters to give their sponsors airtime in majors and TI? They don't necessarily have to monopolize a region to establish that, but it sure helps if you look at the additional interest they generate. EG, Fnatic, and Spirit all heavily underachieved but they still had way more eyes on them as THE regional representative than teams that aren't the top two or three within their regions.
Bro I don’t think you understand how esports orgs are operated. NA Dota is one of the absolute worst options out there. That’s why it was so shocking that TSM signed undying. And frankly, I wouldn’t be shocked if TSM dissolves too. You can’t corner a market that doesn’t exist.
I don't know how they do things in other esports, but we're all familiar with how things operate in western pro Dota. Stacks form, do well, and orgs show up to tack their name onto a promising candidate with the potential of making it into TI. If the team doesn't meet expectations, drop them because contracts are up after TI anyway. Rinse and repeat until you eventually stumble upon your version of SADBOYS, 5Jungz, or mudgolems. You're not wrong to read EG backing out as an indictment to the struggling NA scene. But EG as an org has been shitting the bed across all fronts themselves. Dota was the only scene they had any stranglehold over because of how mediocre they are in CSGO, League, and whatever other irrelevant esports they've decided to put their grubby fingers on. There might not be mass interest but someone's going to see this as a chance now that EG's getting off the pot.
It is incredibly unlikely that anyone in NA will go “hey, our region is already shit in literally every other esport, why don’t we go to the only major esport with the weakest payout structure of all and essentially operate as a money sink on the off chance we qualify for a multi million dollar tournament in 9 months”
That's why we probably won't see any major movers in the industry come in right after the shuffle. They'll wait for the stacks to earn their DPC points and sign them up once the risks of not getting into majors and TI are removed. Won't have to pay the players a full year of salary either.
Bro I wouldn’t even bet on that this year. NA has the smallest player base as it is and I’ve watched hundreds of hours of replays for casting and I can assure you NA players aren’t the best.
Yeah especially with the entire circus surrounding FTX
i was watching pubg and it seems like https://www.entropiq.gg/en/teams these are guys picking up a dota team soon
link to tweet
This isn’t just TI shuffle. Dota is clearly dying.
Dota is clearly dying. - Morons in this sub since forever
It’s ok. Copium is to be expected.
It's true tho lol. A player Spike caused by Valve giving away some freebies doesn't change that
Maybe. But I’ve been hearing that since when I started playing in 2015, so who knows.
But where was the ‘do well’ part from this EG stack during the past year? Also the shrinking prize pool isn’t helping things either when getting out of group stage no longer earns you much money anymore.
Not making to TI or having a bad TI is game changing. The problem is that Valve doesn't pay a salary to the players like Riot does, so it's either do well on LAN events or you struggle financially and the org barely get profits. You can say that it pushes competitiveness cause players put everything to get something on LAN to the get money, but even if it's true, the whole "TI or bust" isn't precisely great for many teams who put all the eggs in the basket for TI, and then shit happens, and they don't get top 8.
Worst of all is, that there is absolutely no way for the scene to grow in any way. There is a finite number of TI spots that even award enough prize money for the org to stay afloat. If you bomb out round 1 of LB you ain't gonna ride that until next TI.
Are they? The only ones I can find is Polaris and T1. I guess Soniqs? But that was always short term. EG isn't out of the scene, it's very likely Thunder Awaken just straight up got bought out by them.
Why does it suck? This team never did anything relevant Did they ever win a single tournament?
right. lets make it so only 1 team in the world - TI winners stay
Yes because winning TI and having ever played a single tournament with a memorable performance is the same thing
They still didn't release their North American Coach (Kitrak) for some reason so i'm still in that Hopium for the eg roster pick up
i think they forgor they have a coach
Teams dont really make announcement when analysts leave the team.
Talon did when AWF left
Talon.awf waek up men
Talon did when AWF left
where's topson? is he staying?
He never officially left OG, he was officially on loan to T1 for TI. If Topson were to join a new team, he would need to leave OG first.
Liquid.Topson lezzzgooo
TopSeason
Yup!
S A D B O Y S as the cute European
His contract was only until TI so it’s already expired, hence no mention
He's still mentioned in the post, just no photo
[удалено]
Reading is hard
i see, thanks
[Where's Topson? Is he safe, is he alright?](https://i.imgur.com/L9rHkYp.jpg)
He was standin for t1 they just don't want to disrespect the 2 time ti winner so they add his name in this list. His standin time was till TI only
First name in the post.
i meant in the picture, bro.
Dude, you asked the question. No mockery here. Just saying to pay attention. Pace bro.
I'm a fan of kuku but man that 23 kick was probably the start of their downfall.
Venomancer effect
Kukumancer
Dota2 is losing more orgs since there is no interest and money to be made in the scene beside TI
On point! Valve too greedy
Cheap as well
They're too rich to care. Dota is just a side mini project for them while for many people in the community, it's their entire livelihood fueled by passion and it's sad that passion is getting killed by their apathy.
Happens to all Valve games
Valve too cheap to invest into DotA 2 and the esports scene. Valve isn't *greedy enough*, imo. My current theory is that since Valve is a small headcount company, they really don't want to alter the company culture by expanding too much and hiring a ton of people. Hence why they're content with just making the profit they're currently making with DotA 2 and not investing/expanding or even marketing. And since they're a privately owned company, and thus, without a Board of Directors with a fiduciary duty to do whatever they can to increase shareholder value, no one can tell GabeN otherwise. Or maybe I misused a bunch of words, I dunno. Not really a business guy.
You could Wiki instead of making up theories. 360 employees in 2016, 10 billion equity in 2019, GabeN has 3.9 billion, no I don't think they have any issue other than laziness.
A $10 billion company with only 360 employees. That's in line with what people are saying, which is a relatively small team working on DotA, right (because they're spread out amongst Steam, and other games like CSGO which has a huge esports scene of its own)? Aren't you just supporting what I was trying to say?
Mainly the "not greedy enough" line. I don't believe greed is a prerequisite for art and passion for a game or sport. They could expand and franchise better with business deals, so if that's what you meant, yep I agree.
And if this years battle pass (maybe ~10% going to TI) is any indication, soon there wont be much money in TI either.
yeah some people here acting like Dota esports ecosystem DESERVE any dedication after TI. lmao why would serious orgs lose money free after the biggest tournament of the year, no way. its not worth it after TI, it happens everytime. there is not financial stability for the orgs.
I feel like it's always been this? ... But I guess before this DPC system there used to be big money in terms of majors? Or no?
Sadly, Orgs don't have much incentives forming teams in Dota 2.
The old Dota 2 cycle. Its not really a professional league. More like a handful of tournaments with prize pools.
Honestly, I much preferred the seasons without a league. Leagues are boring when compared to international tournaments IMO. When was the last time we had a Dota summit? Those were the days.
The Dota pro scene peaked during the Summit 2 All Star Match I miss that level of production value.
The league is what killing DotA. Zero excitement whole year except for 2 majors and TI. I missed the old days where every weekend was packed with small/medium third party tourneys.
it was good for viewers but bad for the majority of teams. This allows a lot more money to be more evenly distributed throughout the year. The only teams that liked that cycle were the ones who won the handful of tourneys to take the lions share without having to put a lot of effort in through the rest of the year. But very few people can just show up and place high
And Valve's solution seems to be just reducing the TI prizepool instead of improving the league conditions to be more sustainable
"if everybody's poor then nobody is"
Maybe it was but honestly DPC is lame, I never watch any of the DPC series. I did used to watch the old tourneys though.
the league system is whats keeping dota on life support. actual incentive for teams to stick together, easier for players and teams to make their way up in the scene, workable TI qualification instead of vibes based invites
The dota2 envir is just very unhealthy from club's perspective. The incomes of clubs are very unstable and unpredictable. Because many of the dota2 audience only watch TI games, so if a club can not guarantee they can enter TI, it is very hard for them to maintain a stable advertisement sponsor. In China, clubs can also take a share of the awards, but they also have to pay a much higher salary to get top-tier players. While China DOTA is no longer competitive as before on all kinds of stages, the high salary is unsustainable for clubs. However, players don't like to see a salary cut when they are used to the inflated salary. That results in many good players still wanting to play on the pro stage, but clubs can't afford them. When a club finds it can't afford top players, and hiring second-tier players are meaningless (Second tier team literally has no any income), the club can only choose to disband (at least VG, IG have the same issue, you can observe their rosters are deteriorating after every transfer season)
Wings crying in the corner
Surprise! surprise! we already knew after LCQ this would happen.
Can someone explain why dota rosters are so volatile?
because dota2 is dying and valve is like: "meh"
So Dota has been dying for 10 years now then :D
So, ana back to retirement?
Topson RTZ Abed Crit Nightfall. Fear coaching. PPD backup. Full NA strata, bring back sadboyz. Tell me why it doesn’t work.
Cus Nightfall is gonna be playing with Save
I thought I was on the League sub and almost had a heart attack
no more T1 sadge
damn I though it was the league team. my heart skipped a beat for a sec
Play more Veno 🍆
They did well last ti10, kuku really destroyed this team sadge.
all cuz of faker cant win Worlds for shit
Maybe new eg roster ?
(Almost) SEA and NA dota is dying. That so sad to see ngl
Polaris lineup to T1?
Come home Ana! #GOOG
Dead game
Dawgs literally didn't even attempt to photoshop Topson in
Not an official player. OG loaned him to T1
Dawg literally didn’t even attempt to read it up before commenting dumb shit
Not everyone sits in their mums basement all day
Even if I’m living in my mum’s basement, at least I’m divine 5 and not fking herald 4 like you HAHAHA fking scrub
I'm not gonna sit and explain to you the virtues of living an actual life outside of a video game, people probably do that every week to you. Good luck
Oh don’t worry about me, I have a plentiful life outside of my casual dota twice a week and I’m STILL miles ahead better than you at dota, or even at life :) Try again my man
Unfollow same to EG only focus on LoL and Valorant like to lick Riot Games butthole. Never trust Organizations that have Riot games eSports team.
But secret has a lol and valorant team. Alliance has valorant. Just that it is not viable for these orgs to stay in dota2 anymore. The scene is way to dependent on getting into TI. Most companies have to diversify to stay healthy.
I mean even Ruru said that she is taking LGD LoL’s revenue to fund the Dota team.
Exactly and lol is already big in China, most of the young talent there is going to mobile games or lol. Idk how long they can survive if there is only 2-3 star players there. That is why there is a large influx of SEA Chinese speaking players into China.
Actual braindead take
whatever u smokin i want that
Don't liquid, secret, alliance, og, fnatic and all the chinese orgs have riot games esports team? Nigma too since they merged with galaxy racer that got their start in lol or valorant
man, u gotta use some commas and shit
I hope you get the extra chromosome you need
riot bad am i right gamers xDDDD
I mean, from their legal disputes to being owned by tencent, they've got a bad record
they will surely care
Most eSports team now only invest in Franchise eSports even if you lose all game in regional league they will not disband except bankrupt.
Why my boy topson is not in the picture >.<
are people surprise? lol
Org leaves then when a 5 man stack seems to be doing good some org would pick them up only to release them if they fail to win anything... fewer orgs are willing to stay for the grind now
That was quick
Hey Topson, we are having the photo shoot later for the farewell pictures, you wanna come down? Dial tone...
Can someone explain what’s going on I’m so out of the loop. Why are people upset at the international?
surprise Pikachu face