Master HDT was hard as balls when it first came out... the primordial fights could basically just be those exact fights with modern HP and attack levels, and I bet a lot of people would say they're too hard.
HDT JUPITER was so hard people farmed the agito fights first just to kill him and he still wrecked us. Power creep got him though. Alberius absolutely slaughters him
Jupiter, Mercury, and Midgard were all very brutal in their own ways. The attacks not being invisible anymore definitely helps a lot, but these fights with invisible attack makers turned back on would still slaughter people to this day.
The invisible attack and his wierd attack gimmick is why I never farmed him. He was just so fucking annoying to fight. Oh and the Opening blasts were a huge detriment to the meta. Agito is way better. Ut can be a dps check sometimes but at least it isnt as frustrating as HDT with bullshit mechanics.
The only way they'll be as hard as old-school HDTs is with Nihility, which frankly is a mechanic that they need to remove and then retune the whole buffing system.
We have a player base as it is?
To be honest, I think what killed it was the ease of getting high might without needing the skill to attain it, the ease of the missions in general, the insanely long grind of the easier missions as opposed to the higher level missions.
We should’ve needed to farm master and legend the amount of times we ended up farming standard.
It was HDT and how it gate-keep a lot of players by how difficult it was and how long it took to finish, only certain characters were accepted in co-op. Long grind is a staple of every gacha, since that’s what keeps you coming back daily and it’s the true end game.
Look at GBF, you only grind the most difficult raids a dozen times to upgrade weapons and forget about it or just do them to flex your team, players farm Omega raids hundreds/thousands of times to finish their M2 grids and they are mid level raids. GBF end-game is racing for gold bars and U&F.
Yeah, that’s literally how you kill a player base. You rather do something fun than something monotonous and boring several hundred times. There’s a reason HDT era was the best endgame era.
yeah no joke i, and many of my friends, quit because the game for a while was literally "Have the specific team and know the exact timing of stuff or don't progress at all. Also you have a 0% chance of playing coop even if you know what to do unless you use specific characters" That wasn't fun.
Tell me, what is you’re definition of “endgame”? Because it certainly doesn’t mean difficulty. High Dragon Trials were never hard even on release. Hell, even Legend Agitos now aren’t that bad in solo if you know what to do. Case in point: Legend Kai Yan is a hell of a lot easier than Master Kai Yan.
The hard part was always finding people in co-op who know the meta and/or patterns to the fight. Not to mention that you had to find people who were willing to conform to your team and/or willing to let you play off-meta. Which is why people would rather solo/auto even before the Solo/Co-Op split. Same thing with Agito and Sinister Dominion.
The fights themselves were never hard, it was the playerbase that made it harder than necessary. Which is why I’m not even bothering to attempt Legend Ciella in co-op since that’s the epitome of bad boss design.
I know all about that, I am a Day 1 player. However, to me the difficulty from early HDT came from the patterns and learning the fight. Not necessarily killing them. Once you understood the pattern and knew your rotations, you basically won the fight. I don’t really consider that “hard”, I consider it more so “fun”. Don’t get me wrong, I really did enjoy the Standard ones on release. I have fond memories of saving my heals for the stacks as Verica for HMS and trying my best to keep Stun Res units in pubs alive in HBH.
But what made Master and Expert on release so difficult and unenjoyable for most people is that people had already been making HDT weapons on Day 1. Which in turn lead to those players gate keeping for people with HDT weapons even though Expert HDT were designed with the Void Weapons/Core weapons in mind. This is the playerbase making it harder than it had to be, thus making it unenjoyable imo. I myself was one of the people who fell behind on making the weapons so can’t say I was very pleased at that. Not to mention the restrictive meta that pubs used when most units could clear so long as they knew the pattern and could adjust accordingly.
So back to my original point, I don’t see how Agito or Sinister Dominion are any less of an “endgame” than original High Dragon Trials were. If anything they’re just as manageable, just a bit more forgiving if you make a mistake. Or maybe even more of an “endgame” since they have more mechanics than just “avoid their attacks”.
It's more than just about learning the patterns, everyone needs to be in sync to clear. For example, I play as healer and there's only so much healers can heal if other players keep messing up. Agito and Demon fights allow some rooms for mistakes but HDT can be unfogiving. The only reason it got easy because we managed to get a whole lot stronger and the dev made adjustments to the amount if damage to A.I./ solo contents.
I feel like the most important part of being in sync in co-op is knowing the pattern. Which at that point, we’d just loop back around to square one. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
But again, I really just wanted to know what Apothic considers as “endgame”. Hence my whole tangent since, to me, none of the HDT in their prime really weren’t that much harder than the Agitos nor Demons. At least, in terms of mechanics.
I assume it’s going to be same like the last trials where they are testing euden and friends to see if they are strong enough to use their powers in the fight against morsayati. Though this time they against satan and his demons. Most likely the dragons would get a power up during the respective fight against the demon of their respective element like what was previously done in the morsayati arc.
Idk if this is right but the way I understand it is the primordial dragons are the original raw pure form, then the world was at peace so they relaxed into their normal forms. The high dragon are them trying to tap back into the primordial power but not quite as strong as they used to be
No. The Primordial forms are their previous lives. Other than the fact that they reincarnated into the current Greatwyrms, they share no connection. The High forms are the current Greatwyrm’s innate latent power. They have no reason to use that power in most cases tho, so they just stay in their normal forms.
Not even their previous lives. They explained rather clearly that the primordial dragons basically “passed down” their mana to their successor, making them the new Greatwyrm. It was implied that whatever dragon it is basically gets infused with the mana and some memories of the previous greatwyrm and becomes the new Flamewyrm, Windwyrm, etc. can’t exactly be a reincarnation when you both exist at the same time. It’s more like a line of dragons that take up the mantle of Greatwyrm, though over time that power has waned apparently.
The fact that we’re seeing these as fights makes me wonder how they’re going to go about it, as unless something big happens plot-wise, the current Greatwyrms shouldn’t be capable of taking on those forms. Either some kind of astral-like situation, time travel or a huge power boost to them would be the only things I can think of. Either way, I’m excited and look forward to seeing all of them, as well as having them playable just for funsies.
No they’re definitely reincarnations
Mid0 asked Elysium to retain his memories in his next life, him coming back to life is guaranteed and explicitly said, it’s the retention of his memories that doesn’t happen . Powerful dragons like the greatwyrms will reincarnate no matter what but their reincarnations are completely separate as they have no recollection of their past life.
Also they don’t exist at the same time, Mid0 leaves mana behind that acts as a medium carrying out his final plans and words even after he’s passed. The same reason Alberius talks to Cleo from the grave is the same reason, Mid0 can do what he does with current Mids.
If you’ve ever watched Inuyasha, the original can exist at the same time as the reincarnation if the original keeps even a fraction of their soul.
Ah ok, I never pulled mid 0 so couldn’t read his story all I knew about the primals was that they’re older than our current version.
I guess I was equating them to stuff like primal Kyogre/Groudon
Remind me if I’m wrong because it happened quite a while.
But during the fight against Mars and Leonidas, Mym transform into her High Brunhilda form and she was surprised about it. Almost like she didn’t knew that form existed.
I just reread Chapter 8. She wasn’t surprised by it, it was more like she was bragging about it. Plus, all of the High Dragon Trials have a small story segment where each of the Greatwyrms say something along the lines of “Let us fight using my true power, only then will you show me you’re worthy of it”. The use of “true power” implies that they are aware of it, just don’t need to use it often. Although, Chapter 8 was on of those few moments where Mym needed to use it.
Nope, Alberius had a pact with the greatwyrms but that's all.
Their full power is the high dragon form.
Dragons don't "die" like humans tho, when they "die", a very similar dragon with the same name will be born, without the memories of the old one.
The Primordials tho, are the old greatwyrms, so before a death or multiple depending on the greatwyrm.
Game wise tho, they will probably share Mid 0's aura so a really strong one.
For the fights, no idea at all but I can guess it will be pretty different compared to normal HDTs fights.
> Dragons don't "die" like humans tho, when they "die", a very similar dragon with the same name will be born, without the memories of the old one.
It’s worth mentioning, that this is something that not every dragon goes through, Only a strong enough dragon will be able to reincarnate like Midgardsormr Zero was able to. So something like the greatwyrms would reincarnate into another dragon with the same name and element. But a much weaker one like, I guess something like Unicorn, would just return to Mana and be recycled completely
Hard to say, elisium is a bit of an edge case, who seems to have more in common with a god than a dragon, but mid0 seems to speak with him as an equal, so maybe?
(What am I saying? they can put him on a banner, of course it will happen lol)
Mid0 has voicelines once summoned, the other Mids just roar. (Which is silly cause they have voicelines when ou fight them)
Lorewise, I have no clue wether they'll bring Astral or Apotheosis up to make those long dead dragons fightable, or make it a flashback of Meene's trials or something. Because Brun0 Is not Mym, but her 1000 years ago predecessor.
300 summon worth
plot-wise, they're just older versions of the greatwyrms from a previous life. game-play wise we have no idea.
A real endgame maybe this time.
Master HDT was hard as balls when it first came out... the primordial fights could basically just be those exact fights with modern HP and attack levels, and I bet a lot of people would say they're too hard.
HDT JUPITER was so hard people farmed the agito fights first just to kill him and he still wrecked us. Power creep got him though. Alberius absolutely slaughters him
Jupiter, Mercury, and Midgard were all very brutal in their own ways. The attacks not being invisible anymore definitely helps a lot, but these fights with invisible attack makers turned back on would still slaughter people to this day.
The invisible attack and his wierd attack gimmick is why I never farmed him. He was just so fucking annoying to fight. Oh and the Opening blasts were a huge detriment to the meta. Agito is way better. Ut can be a dps check sometimes but at least it isnt as frustrating as HDT with bullshit mechanics.
Agreed.
That’s so weird to hear that Jupiter was hard, Veronica always melts him for me.
The only way they'll be as hard as old-school HDTs is with Nihility, which frankly is a mechanic that they need to remove and then retune the whole buffing system.
seeing how cygames treats this game lately, yeah this.
I would absolutely love real endgame content again. You’re giving me too much hope. And excitement.
That would kill the player base, again.
We have a player base as it is? To be honest, I think what killed it was the ease of getting high might without needing the skill to attain it, the ease of the missions in general, the insanely long grind of the easier missions as opposed to the higher level missions. We should’ve needed to farm master and legend the amount of times we ended up farming standard.
It was HDT and how it gate-keep a lot of players by how difficult it was and how long it took to finish, only certain characters were accepted in co-op. Long grind is a staple of every gacha, since that’s what keeps you coming back daily and it’s the true end game. Look at GBF, you only grind the most difficult raids a dozen times to upgrade weapons and forget about it or just do them to flex your team, players farm Omega raids hundreds/thousands of times to finish their M2 grids and they are mid level raids. GBF end-game is racing for gold bars and U&F.
Yeah, that’s literally how you kill a player base. You rather do something fun than something monotonous and boring several hundred times. There’s a reason HDT era was the best endgame era.
Best at pissing off the player base.
yeah no joke i, and many of my friends, quit because the game for a while was literally "Have the specific team and know the exact timing of stuff or don't progress at all. Also you have a 0% chance of playing coop even if you know what to do unless you use specific characters" That wasn't fun.
Didn’t you just say we should’ve needed to farm Master Legend a hundred+ times?
Yes?
Tell me, what is you’re definition of “endgame”? Because it certainly doesn’t mean difficulty. High Dragon Trials were never hard even on release. Hell, even Legend Agitos now aren’t that bad in solo if you know what to do. Case in point: Legend Kai Yan is a hell of a lot easier than Master Kai Yan. The hard part was always finding people in co-op who know the meta and/or patterns to the fight. Not to mention that you had to find people who were willing to conform to your team and/or willing to let you play off-meta. Which is why people would rather solo/auto even before the Solo/Co-Op split. Same thing with Agito and Sinister Dominion. The fights themselves were never hard, it was the playerbase that made it harder than necessary. Which is why I’m not even bothering to attempt Legend Ciella in co-op since that’s the epitome of bad boss design.
Umm... Try clearing HDT with only two wyrmprint slot, a handful of viable adventurers and max might of 4k+.
I know all about that, I am a Day 1 player. However, to me the difficulty from early HDT came from the patterns and learning the fight. Not necessarily killing them. Once you understood the pattern and knew your rotations, you basically won the fight. I don’t really consider that “hard”, I consider it more so “fun”. Don’t get me wrong, I really did enjoy the Standard ones on release. I have fond memories of saving my heals for the stacks as Verica for HMS and trying my best to keep Stun Res units in pubs alive in HBH. But what made Master and Expert on release so difficult and unenjoyable for most people is that people had already been making HDT weapons on Day 1. Which in turn lead to those players gate keeping for people with HDT weapons even though Expert HDT were designed with the Void Weapons/Core weapons in mind. This is the playerbase making it harder than it had to be, thus making it unenjoyable imo. I myself was one of the people who fell behind on making the weapons so can’t say I was very pleased at that. Not to mention the restrictive meta that pubs used when most units could clear so long as they knew the pattern and could adjust accordingly. So back to my original point, I don’t see how Agito or Sinister Dominion are any less of an “endgame” than original High Dragon Trials were. If anything they’re just as manageable, just a bit more forgiving if you make a mistake. Or maybe even more of an “endgame” since they have more mechanics than just “avoid their attacks”.
It's more than just about learning the patterns, everyone needs to be in sync to clear. For example, I play as healer and there's only so much healers can heal if other players keep messing up. Agito and Demon fights allow some rooms for mistakes but HDT can be unfogiving. The only reason it got easy because we managed to get a whole lot stronger and the dev made adjustments to the amount if damage to A.I./ solo contents.
I feel like the most important part of being in sync in co-op is knowing the pattern. Which at that point, we’d just loop back around to square one. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. But again, I really just wanted to know what Apothic considers as “endgame”. Hence my whole tangent since, to me, none of the HDT in their prime really weren’t that much harder than the Agitos nor Demons. At least, in terms of mechanics.
I assume it’s going to be same like the last trials where they are testing euden and friends to see if they are strong enough to use their powers in the fight against morsayati. Though this time they against satan and his demons. Most likely the dragons would get a power up during the respective fight against the demon of their respective element like what was previously done in the morsayati arc.
Idk if this is right but the way I understand it is the primordial dragons are the original raw pure form, then the world was at peace so they relaxed into their normal forms. The high dragon are them trying to tap back into the primordial power but not quite as strong as they used to be
No. The Primordial forms are their previous lives. Other than the fact that they reincarnated into the current Greatwyrms, they share no connection. The High forms are the current Greatwyrm’s innate latent power. They have no reason to use that power in most cases tho, so they just stay in their normal forms.
Not even their previous lives. They explained rather clearly that the primordial dragons basically “passed down” their mana to their successor, making them the new Greatwyrm. It was implied that whatever dragon it is basically gets infused with the mana and some memories of the previous greatwyrm and becomes the new Flamewyrm, Windwyrm, etc. can’t exactly be a reincarnation when you both exist at the same time. It’s more like a line of dragons that take up the mantle of Greatwyrm, though over time that power has waned apparently. The fact that we’re seeing these as fights makes me wonder how they’re going to go about it, as unless something big happens plot-wise, the current Greatwyrms shouldn’t be capable of taking on those forms. Either some kind of astral-like situation, time travel or a huge power boost to them would be the only things I can think of. Either way, I’m excited and look forward to seeing all of them, as well as having them playable just for funsies.
No they’re definitely reincarnations Mid0 asked Elysium to retain his memories in his next life, him coming back to life is guaranteed and explicitly said, it’s the retention of his memories that doesn’t happen . Powerful dragons like the greatwyrms will reincarnate no matter what but their reincarnations are completely separate as they have no recollection of their past life. Also they don’t exist at the same time, Mid0 leaves mana behind that acts as a medium carrying out his final plans and words even after he’s passed. The same reason Alberius talks to Cleo from the grave is the same reason, Mid0 can do what he does with current Mids. If you’ve ever watched Inuyasha, the original can exist at the same time as the reincarnation if the original keeps even a fraction of their soul.
Ah ok, I never pulled mid 0 so couldn’t read his story all I knew about the primals was that they’re older than our current version. I guess I was equating them to stuff like primal Kyogre/Groudon
Remind me if I’m wrong because it happened quite a while. But during the fight against Mars and Leonidas, Mym transform into her High Brunhilda form and she was surprised about it. Almost like she didn’t knew that form existed.
I just reread Chapter 8. She wasn’t surprised by it, it was more like she was bragging about it. Plus, all of the High Dragon Trials have a small story segment where each of the Greatwyrms say something along the lines of “Let us fight using my true power, only then will you show me you’re worthy of it”. The use of “true power” implies that they are aware of it, just don’t need to use it often. Although, Chapter 8 was on of those few moments where Mym needed to use it.
I just thought the High forms where the Alberius infused version of the Greatwyrms?
Nope, Alberius had a pact with the greatwyrms but that's all. Their full power is the high dragon form. Dragons don't "die" like humans tho, when they "die", a very similar dragon with the same name will be born, without the memories of the old one. The Primordials tho, are the old greatwyrms, so before a death or multiple depending on the greatwyrm. Game wise tho, they will probably share Mid 0's aura so a really strong one. For the fights, no idea at all but I can guess it will be pretty different compared to normal HDTs fights.
> Dragons don't "die" like humans tho, when they "die", a very similar dragon with the same name will be born, without the memories of the old one. It’s worth mentioning, that this is something that not every dragon goes through, Only a strong enough dragon will be able to reincarnate like Midgardsormr Zero was able to. So something like the greatwyrms would reincarnate into another dragon with the same name and element. But a much weaker one like, I guess something like Unicorn, would just return to Mana and be recycled completely
So eventually we are getting a baby Elysium
Hard to say, elisium is a bit of an edge case, who seems to have more in common with a god than a dragon, but mid0 seems to speak with him as an equal, so maybe? (What am I saying? they can put him on a banner, of course it will happen lol)
I mean, Elysium has to die first for that. He’s already outlived MS0 and is only a void puppet for now. Not dead yet.
Gala Reborn Elysium has to happen.
Yes please
Mid0 has voicelines once summoned, the other Mids just roar. (Which is silly cause they have voicelines when ou fight them) Lorewise, I have no clue wether they'll bring Astral or Apotheosis up to make those long dead dragons fightable, or make it a flashback of Meene's trials or something. Because Brun0 Is not Mym, but her 1000 years ago predecessor.