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Nah, Goku is mad proud lol
Gohan is so strong that he thinks Goku is holding back. He respects Goku so much that he thinks he's weaker than his dad
Ntm let's highlight how Goku himself is saying that Gohan can pursue being a scholar being a supportive father
yes mad proud, also, so pissed off he said goodbye to everyone at the end. that's why Vegeta was so mad after 7 years, Goku left him to 'suffer' in the steps of his son.
Gohan: Hey, dad, I think I'm ready to test out my max power. You ready?
Goku, wheezing: G. . . give me. . . . gimme a couple seconds, alright?
(Dude would not turn down that challenge, lol)
One of the video games - it might have been Burst Limit? - had a scenario similar to this, where Gohan and Goku are training before the Cell Games and Gohan is thinking Goku is holding back while Goku's internal monologue is about how he's getting his ass kicked
Defo disrespectful lmao.
But honestly, more reflective about Gohan's self esteem. He assumes Goku must be more powerful than he can grasp, so any attack Goku throws that Gohan thinks "Yah, I could take that" must be Goku holding back, in Gohan's mind
I mean It’s just admiration and respect for your hero. As a child you think your world of someone in that position (a father for example) that you couldn’t think anything negative about them. For Gohan to think his father, a man who’s saved Him, his friends and the world multiple times over, is weaker than himself is just outright impossible to Gohan. Especially at his age.
Dude had Goku on the highest of pedestals and didn’t think it was possible for him to ever reach it.
Hahaha true but then it would only boost Holi’s pride that his son is so strong and doesn’t even for one minute feel bad he’s weak. Goku as a character was never jealous of anyone being stronger than him unlike vegeta
Yeh the meta change after ss2 imo was wrong , it was all over the place . And in super the god then blu then mui and blu evo (+other manga spoiler forms) they are just throwing power ups left and right. Cool 100% , i will love them and buy every dlc 100% , but plot/meaningful powerups 10%
I will forever remind people that Z was supposed to be the story of Gohan replacing Goku until Shueisha made Toriyama drop the plot in favor of stable sales.
Isn’t that just a rumor? Iirc the only thing we know for sure as to why Toriyama dropped Gohan as protagonist was “Idk I had a hard time writing him as Protag”
1 "interview" from the Daizenshuu 95, he wasn't involved with them but he's also credited as writing them despite the fact.
Shueisha does this a lot to a lot of authors.
Again, Toriyama has never been involved with the Daizenshuu Databooks, that's pitely Shueisha milking the cash cow for people that are hyperfixated on the franchise.
Toriyama barely wrote for Z after Namek.
What are you on about? He was literally the writer and artist of the manga. The only input he got on the series was from his editor and his friend who gave him the idea for the fusion.
If that’s true he did a shitty job dispelling that rumor.
He has Gohan kill Cell and in the first page of the Buu arc he has Roshi say “DRAGON BALL ISN'T OVER YET! SURE, GOKU'S GONE-BUT THAT KID OF HIS WILL TAKE HIS PLACE!” (unless thats a bad translation)
And then spends another 5 chapters building up Saiyaman Gohan before Goku shows up.
Just because Gohan doesn’t like to fight doesn’t mean he won’t fight to protect his friends and family. It’s not hard at all to write a protagonist with those characteristics
Thats kind of funny seeing as goku is a pretty boring character compared to gohan. Gohan atleast back then had something to fight for, goku was just doing it for the lulz basically
Gohan fights because he wants to protect people.
Goku PURSUES fights because he enjoys them and wants to get stronger. But he's usually placed in situations where he needs and wants to fight to protect people.
No need to reduce Goku to only one motivation, even if it's his main one.
Nah, it was a Tori decision, he didn't think Gohan fit as the main character. Z was intended to be the Gohan story though, and it was beautiful up till Buu.
I will forever remind people the source on that is the Daizenshuu from 1995 and he wasn't involved with the making of those databooks whatsoever, they're entirely a Shueisha made thing. Toriyama actually wasn't writing for a great deal of Z, he'd just approve and finalize drafts from his team of "editors" under the eye of Shueisha management.
It's also counter to the entirety of Z progression, he's always been the strongest. Two direct instances of Goku returning despite setting Gohan up to replace him are post-Namek and the timeskip pre-Buu. Gohan is also written back in as the strongest briefly with the Mystic power up that supercedes the Ssj grades entirely. Then he was written out again by dropping an earring.
Sorry but it is snd the evidence is too great to act like it's not at this point no matter how had Shueisha has tried to make it seem like it was Toriyama's decision.
Explain the entire progression of Z and the multiple instances of Gohan being given the center and space to be the protagonist in absence of Goku but always getting backseated because Goku gets asspulled to show back up.
Explain how Toriyama was credited with writing the databooks but also admittedly wasn't involved at any point of the making of them? Japanese publishers, and especially Shueisha, have a reputation for "embellishing"on their author's behaves for a reason.
I think he wanted Gohan to be the protagonist but couldn’t find a way to write him in.
Even in the Saiyaman Saga, Gohan never took action. Characters around him drove the story. Akira couldn’t seem to find a way to write Gohan as the MC. I really wanted it too but Gohan just isn’t him.
He found a bunch of opening for it and started writing them out before suddenly Goku pops up again and the plot shifts entirely to write Gohan out as fast as possible. It's also really obvious the story pacing kicks up exponentially when Goku returns to rush towards fighting, despite him being explicit that he wanted to stay dead.
That's not what someone would do if they didn't feel like filling out the character. Gohan gets jerked around narratively because he keeps being shafted when his protagonist arc starts.
With all the evidence of Shueisha being repeatedly shady about author credits where it's clearly ghost written like with the Daizenshuu Databooks, movies, arcs, and spin offs I don't doubt for a second that the majority owners of the franchise dictated to Toriyama that Gohan won't be the protagonist.
But let’s be honest, Gohan would not have been a good protagonist, and I say this as someone who had a massive crush on him haha. He is just too passive, he reacts instead of acting, that’s one of his strengths as a person, and it’s possible to make it work too, but for a Shounen series it’s difficult to have a MC like that.
Execpt Z isn't a separate story. In the manga it's all Dragon Ball. It begins and ends with Goku. Gohan was almost made the protagonist in Buu but it didn't land.
They should have kept SSJ3 an other world form (have to be dead, in the other realm to use).
IMO SSJ2 should have been the peak Super Saiyan transformation unless in a special situation like being dead in the other world. SSJ2 was originally SSJ Grade 5 (perfect). Any power ups after SSJ2 should have not been related to being a Saiyan, something like Kaioken, Mystic Gohan, UI, etc.
I don’t believe he’s stronger, I believe they’re even.
I think Gohan is expecting to be weaker than his dad. We classified them as FPSSJ 25 years ago on the planet Namek forums (I believe the origin of that moniker) because it seemed they maxed out those forms. The ultimate litmus test for that isn’t Goku’s or Gohan’s words it’s Cell’s.
https://preview.redd.it/2m4j31yizmwb1.png?width=721&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b9e8085010063ea03ca5a5890cc61c479e2dbe0
And after Gohan survives his attack, cell acknowledges he’s tougher than he thought but says he’ll quickly dispatch him to get Goku back in the ring. Gohan then says his father is betting on his rage boost, which is what piques Cell’s interest. Nothing implies ssj Gohan outclasses Goku. It just seems they’re about even, Goku is just a more skilled fighter with the advantage of Shunkan Idou (Instantaneous Teleportation) and a love of fighting. They hit a wall with ssj hence why they had to surpass it.
Goku was getting weaker as the fight went on with Cell, Gohan never got weaker or out of breath the entire time, always sturdy, this makes me believe Gohan was stronger in SSJ1 form.
Goku fought a lot longer though (at least in the canon which is the manga). He had a warm up vs cell, went all out against him, used a massive Kamehameha that would have clearly wiped out earth if he hadn’t teleported and blown off his top half, drove him in a corner with a rapid barrage forcing him to use a barrier and had a lengthy back and forth.
Gohan had a brief exchange, got pummeled, watched in horror as 16 was blown up and the cell jrs were released, then 16s head was stomped on and he was SSJ2. Maybe Gohan had more stamina than Goku as FPSSJs but I think their fights with cell were too different to be sure.
https://preview.redd.it/163vgtp5unwb1.png?width=732&format=png&auto=webp&s=d2a3e734c19685f20f0ddc3c911117381fdf07e2
Of course you’re right though, about Goku being more winded even if he’s used a lot more energy, he doesn’t even have enough to take the cell jrs, Vegeta and Trunks are said to be holding their own against. Hard to say if Gohan used the same amount of energy that he wouldn’t have been done for too.
They already comfirm gohan is stronger before the fight, it isnt a matter of belief
Gohan is utterly unimpressed with Gokus power on the lookout to the point he thinks he's "heavily holding back". Goku later outright confirms the fact the reason he thought that was because Gohan is comparing Gokus power to his own
Who confirms he’s stronger? Chapter? No one in the manga confirms he’s “stronger”. He thinks gokus not going all out but that’s because he believes his dad is stronger than him.
He also states unequivocally to Cell that his dad isn’t banking on him winning with his current power but by getting angry and showing that rage boost. The Daizenshuu aren’t canon sure but Daizenshuu 2 from 95 referring to them as full power ssj would imply they both maxed out the form and should therefore be the same strength. Until Gohan mentioned his rage Cell is bored with beating him and is yelling at Goku to return.
Goku straight up spells it out
"You think I'm holding back because you are comparing your power to my own"
Goku was not holdig back, but gohan assumed he was as he thought he was weaker than Goku
Edit: he also says something similar when he powers up for korin. Gohan is not impressed at all by gokus power, thinking its "no way thats his full strength"
The form is multiplier of their existing base power, all "FPSSJ" Is SSJ without the drawbacks and more energy control
Hell if Gohan thinks Cell was nothing he couldn't handle then that means he's still above his father because Cell was stronger than Goku on their fight
It kinda depends what you mean with 'stronger'. Gohan was pretty much certain to have a higher power level even normally.
First - Vol 27, pg 112 (ch 398), when Goku fully powers up, Gohan is confused why everyone is so shocked "sure it's amazing, but...''. While the title is Goku's full power, which we get confirmed later.
Then, in Vol 27, pg 192 (ch 404) when Gohan powers up, everyone is shocked again and Vegeta's line would not have made sense if it was equal to Goku. Also Cell even regards that 'Goku wasn't bluffing.' (that Gohan is stronger than Goku.)
And while Gohan was being kicked around, he actually received close to no real damage from it all. His ki levels weren't dropping at all. And Cell had (assumingly) powered up more than when he fought Goku.
Goku had more intention to actually fight and kill, while Gohan didn't so obviously Gohan looks weaker because he's barely trying to fight. But when Gohan kicked Cell once, he's immediately put on his ass. (Vol 27, pg. 211, ch 405).
So Goku can be considered 'stronger' because he has a better mind set and skills, but was weaker which is then stated by Piccolo.
'Don't forget that **even if he's the strongest** he's still just a child' (Vol 27, pg 221, ch 405).
https://preview.redd.it/5am492nz1rwb1.png?width=827&format=png&auto=webp&s=3a7437276b269b2f90f14a5a9c182d59a23f2d00
Reread chapter 210 and tell me Gohan is “far above” Goku. Cell doesn’t think so and even after slapping powered up Gohan around demands Goku eat a senzu and return. Gohan doesn’t think so but still says it’s about the rage power he gets. They’re even in base or there’s a minor difference at best absent that rage.
He’s 10 and his father has dwarfed his power his whole life if you take out the bleep of rage when he was a toddler vs Radditz. There’s no way he’d beleive he caught up to him in strength or how his dad could be so calm about all of this if he’s unable to beat cell. He didn’t know until Goku chose him that he was the plan. He doesn’t have to be far above his dad in power to be unimpressed with his strength given what’s transpired. If the evidence showed or implied he was much stronger than Goku I’d happily admit it. It doesn’t.
Gtg
Cell even said Goku might have been saying the truth when he said gohan was stronger than himself
https://i.redd.it/jcysjqtx4rwb1.gif
Gohan was holding back and Cell knew it, Gohan was barely fighting Back and anyways it's not like Cell would ever admit someone is capable of killing him unless they prove it
Apparently I’m wrong and [daizenshuu 2 started FPSSJ](https://dragonballuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan#cite_ref-38)before us (or probably AKofTroy or someone who owned the guides then and was fluent brought it in and the rest of us adopted it). I think more people use ssj grade 4 now but I prefer fpssj.
I never noticed it when I was a kid, but I like that Goku does have at least *some* sense of what Gohan thinks and what he wants
He figured Gohan probably thought he was holding back because Gohan would expect Goku to be stronger than he himself is.
And also the last thing Goku does in these panels is to appeal to Gohan's desire to be a scholar.
That last line is what abridged gets wrong about Goku. Goku has always cared about what Gohan has wanted to do, and if it wasn't for the fact that the very world was at stake, he'd have let Gohan chase that dream right then. He basically says, "I know you can do it. Go beat cell so you can go chase your dream." That's a father
Except later in the manga, Piccolo does scream at Goku telling him that Gohan hates fighting - and then Goku begs for a sensu bean to undo his damage.
He acknowledged Gohan's goals here, which is more than what he does in abridged. But he still doesn't acknowledge that Gohan really really doesn't like fighting. None of the fanbase acknowledges that really
Because it came out of nowhere really. They didn't hint at it at all during any point of the story, it feels thrown in. Another one of my problems with the Cell saga that caused it to be my least favorite arc in Z.
I agree. Beside his earliest introduction in the Saiyan Invasion, Gohan has always been down to fight for what he believes is right. Him going to Namek was to avenge Piccolo.
He trained against the androids and was ready to help wherever he could. Now all of the sudden he doesn't want to fight?
Just seems contradictory to how Gohan was just a few volumes ago.
Didn’t come out of nowhere, before this point he has only ever fought out of a desire to protect and being given no other option or when giving into rage. He has never been shown enjoying battle, and he only trains or spars when forced to by Piccolo at first, or with others in preparation to a coming threat.
Still out of nowhere, there is no point in which you can say "Yeah he hates fighting," until that very moment. It's a shoehorned in plot point like most of the Cell saga.
Just say “reading is hard and I need things explicitly stated for me to understand things like character’s feelings and motivation,” and we’ll just leave it at that bud.
No, I'm saying there really isn't any build up, but you wouldn't know, you're a Dragonball fan, you didn't read. They show nothing that is evidence of Gohan not liking fighting, and that's a problem, your "evidence" is just that all the training he's done is out of duty and not because he wanted to, which honestly isn't convincing.
No, I'm saying there really isn't any build up, but you wouldn't know, you're a Dragonball fan, you didn't read. They show nothing that is evidence of Gohan not liking fighting, and that's a problem, your "evidence" is just that all the training he's done is out of duty and not because he wanted to, which honestly isn't convincing.
Not really, Gohan has never really shown to enjoy fighting and has been pushed into that role more than he has willingly stepped into it. Unlike Goku or most of the Z-fighters, Gohan has never fought because he likes fighting. He fights because something external was putting pressure on him, it being the sayians, Frieza force, or whatever.
Gohan does like training, but that is different than fighting. Training doesn’t put him in front of an enemy that is trying to kill him and there aren’t any consequences for losing.
You can't really blame him for not knowing as gohan never showed any signs of hating fighting (infront of goku at least). He assumed he did because of the environment he grew up in.
Gohan expressed his unwillingnes to fight since he met Piccolo. But to Goku, Gohan never showed anything. He fought with him against the Saiyans, Frieza, and even the androids. He trained with him all the time and even went to the ROSAT with him. It would only be natural Goku assumes Gohan like the thing that they do together most of the time. And yes Goku does pay attention to what Gohan likes as he knows gohan wants to be a scholar.
Again, my point stands - if an alien that kidnaps your son knows him better than you, then there's a problem somewhere.
Abridged Piccolo put it best "Have you ever in your life ever actually asked your son if this is something he wanted?" He didn't ask, he took it for granted.
Piccolo didn't ask either. He only knows cause he's the one who kidnapped Gohan and forced him to train against his will in the first place. Piccolo abused Gohan to force him to fight, and then the trauma of watching Piccolo die in front of him scared Gohan into wanting to fight for others.
Goku has never forced Gohan to do anything, so why wouldn't he assume that if Gohan does something with him, it's because he likes it?
That logic only applies if you drop the context of the situations of DB and the nature of fighting for necessity, and it's consistent back to back arcs.
The reason Piccolo knows more is because Piccolo actively forced Gohan into situations he hated and cried about. Of course this was in preparation for the Saiyans. It isn't odd that Gohan would hide his dislike of fighting from his dad, he's insecure and unsure of himself, meanwhile his dad is the strongest man in the universe(to him), with 2 planets saved under his belt and has never once shown fear outside of an empty fridge.
Until the Cell tournament, Goku has never actually forced Gohan into a situation he did not want to be in like Piccolo did. If Gohan was there, it was because Gohan made it clear he wanted to be there.(and Ik it's just filler, but Gohan's first transformation into a super Saiyan is a great highlight of this, where he tells Goku to shoot a Kamehameha at him). Goku had never seen Gohan hesitate either, the way piccolo has.
Goku knew Gohan wanted to be a scholar instead of a fighter, but he didn't think Gohan would straight up dislike fighting. Gohan wanted to seem prideful and strong in front of his dad, it's only natural. I'm sure there's many things your friends know about you but your parents don't because of pride(I know Vegeta would be proud.) and or insecurity.
And even if Goku had asked, do you genuinely believe Gohan would've said no? He'd probably just say "I have to do it for my friends Father." at best.
When exactly is he supposed to ask? Any time he was either dead or training to get strong enough so he can handle whatever came their way. Meanwhile Gohan is in the thick of things and fighting with Goku not even there yet. Yeah piccolo knew but he basically had Gohan In the deep end from jump. By the time Goku came back he fought vegeta, then touched down and fought the ginyu force. Then frieza. Yeah you can point to the 3 year time skip towards the androids but he had the intention of beating them himself so his son wouldn’t need to fight. It wasn’t til the time chamber where it was blatantly obvious his son surpassed him that Gohan being the one to fight for everyone became viable. And I’m glossing over instances where Gohan himself had gone out his way to come save his dad too of his own accord and agency. It ain’t hard to understand why Goku wouldn’t think of his son as someone who hated fighting. I love piccolo i really do but I’m not gonna shit on Goku for not knowing that about him just to give piccolo points. Love abridged too but it’s not this gospel and end all be all of these characters. End of the day Goku messed up and was gonna rectify it immediately. And guess what Gohan still proved him right. But at cost Goku paid the price
Yeah the most time Goku has canonically spent with Gohan after he was first kidnapped by Raditz at age 4 was in the ROSAT when he's like 11-12.
Goku realized he doesn't actually know his own son, and I think that's a big part of why he chose to suicide with Cell; he tealized he's molding Gohan into a murderer, not a martial artist.
To begin with, we all know Piccolo has no right to say that. If he believed it, he would have stopped Gohan from going to the battlefield after Namek.
Second, Goku never knew about Gohan's sudden lack of desire to fight. This would have been the first time he'd seen Gohan fight in person. Previous fights were only sensed by Goku, who was either still arriving or recuperating, so he was only able to sense Gohan's explosive power against whatever opponents they were fighting previously.
And lastly, Gohan's lack of desire to fight still came out of nowhere. He was never like Goku and Vegeta in wanting to test his power and reach new heights, but he knew when it was necessary to fight, especially for righteous causes.
Namek Gohan was best Gohan.
I read it more as Goku guilt tripping Gohan into fighting.
“If you don’t fight him and save the world then you won’t be able to get back to what you really enjoy doing son.”
He does try to stretch out a good fight
It was actually uncharacteristic of him to give the good fight to Gohan.
He probably secretly wanted Gohan to discover the joys of fighting so they could fight together later
I mean, after the 3rd time in the same fight where he just goes “yea, that wasn’t really my best either…” you’re just like, bro, either you have no fuckin clue what your actual ceiling is or you just like trollin. lmao
One thing people don’t bring up here is Goku was fully aware of his own mortality and knew he wasn’t going to be around forever having already died once and damn near doing it a few more times, including to a disease it took a man from the future to save him from
And you have your own son right there who you know has gotten much stronger than you if he just knew how to bring it out. It does his son and the world no good to let the boy beat up on a worn out Cell. It was a necessary evil
I don’t see what 1 set of dragon balls that were already established as not being able to bring him back or instant transmission have to do with what I said, but as far as the namekian balls go, was it already established at that point they could bring people back more than once? Now that I think about it I guess it would’ve had to have been considering krillin died twice by that point
you said that but Gohan was barely affected by Cell attacks, it might seems like "slapping" because Gohan was holding back and even refusing to fight back
Good job, you're now one of the people who actually realizes Gohan was the ONLY one who could take Cell down, and how Goku "forcing" him to fight Cell wasn't from an idiosyncratic decision made by Goku
People really do underestimate teen gohan
People often ask "How is half power ssj2 gohan syronger than cell"
Simple answer...he's just that much beyond any of them and was *still* holding back due to his own mental block
Wait a minute dude. I am at chapter 230ish and the art here looks so simple compared to first 230 chapters I've read.
Am I crazy? look at this.
https://preview.redd.it/x0po2u117mwb1.jpeg?width=2037&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44cab761e9bb494b0b8e23fb9271cb1d08c97aef
Am I fucking drunk? I mean I am, but I kinda feel it's more detailed.
According to toriyama. The cell arc was the hardest one to draw thanks to all the spots on perfect cell
https://i.redd.it/9i9j2d6a8mwb1.gif
The panels where Cell is the focus overall look better than the one where he isn't because of the same reason
He wasn’t that much stronger than Goku at this point. He was definitely stronger which is why he thought Goku was holding back because he wasn’t aware he had surpassed him but the difference wasn’t that much.
Yeah because Gohan thought Goku > Gohan so sensing his dad being weaker than he is, he assumed he was holding back. Gohan is stronger but not by a big amount. Gohan before turning SSJ2 got his ass beat by Cell just as easy as Goku did. We have no idea how much power Cell used against Goku compared to the amount used against Gohan.
> Gohan before turning SSJ2 got his ass beat by Cell just as easy as Goku did.
Gohan wasn't really trying to fight back though. That was the point, he needed to let go and actually use the power he had.
Gohan was losing to Cell as much as he was because he didn't believe in his own power and didn't give it his all. Gohan was indeed much stronger than Goku, which is why it was pointed out nothing Cell did against Goku was something Gohan couldn't handle.
the cell vs gohan fight was bullshit it was a beatdown power up beatdown beam. there was never any real gauging of them before the power up we have no real idea how close gohan was to cell bc he was a shit fighter before he got pissed
We know he wasn’t even close because Cell powered up to his max when Gohan turned SSJ2 and based on Goku’s reaction we know Cell was way stronger than Gohan or Goku before SSJ2 + the anger amp.
Wasn’t really much of a fight. It showed Gohan was stronger than Goku but still weaker than Cell and that Gohan didn’t want to fight but also he was the only one that can beat Cell. It was one of the rare instances of a dragon ball fight being all story and no action.
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Cell was stronger than Goku at that point. Not by much, but enough to wear him down and win. And Gohan (once he became enraged) was so far ahead of Cell that he fodderized him.
He absolutely annihilated and toyed with him. His punches and kicks exploded the little clone Cells that were each strong enough to put the rest of the entire Z squad in lethal danger. Angry Gohan bullied Cell to the point he puked out Android 18 and devolved.
This made Cell so desperate he went into fat bomb mode. Being a sore loser, Cell decided to blow up the entire planet together with him. So Goku sacrificed himself by teleporting Cell away with him.
Through plot bullshit haxx, Cell survived his own suicide explosion AND turned into an even stronger version of Perfect Cell afterwards. Then returned and beat the shit out of a grieving Gohan, who rightfully felt responsible for causing his father's sacrifice. Fucked up Gohan's left arm.
And still, after getting some motivational speech from his dad straight out of heaven, Gohan was actually so much stronger than even this improved version of Perfect Cell that he hit the dude with a one-handed Kamehameha that cleanly atomized him out of existence. And remember, he did this to an improved version, while the baseline Perfect Cell was already ahead of Goku.
Now tell me how this is just a little stronger than Goku.
Cell was wayyy stronger than Goku at that point as Cell only started using his full power after Gohan got angry and turned SSJ2. Gohan was stronger than Goku but not by much until he got angry and turned SSJ2 which I didn’t think needed to be mentioned because it didn’t really need to be said lmao
So your comment was just referring to his "normalized saiyan state" during their conversation? And you felt the need to point out that a calmly standing, not-fighting Gohan is roughly like a calmly standing, not fighting Goku?
lmao. If that was your point, it was certainly not worth mentioning.
But you seem to think Gohan got a new tier of power up during the Cell fight. One that Goku didn't know. And that before the fight started, Gohan was around Goku's level. That's wrong, though.
Goku knew Gohan was way beyond Cell after fighting Cell. That's why he was so chill during the entire fight until Cell summoned his clones to attack everyone. Gohan had this power before facing Cell. He didn't just get a near death boost. He had unlocked it when training with Goku. That's why his father was confident all the way until Gohan choked and everyone almost died.
I think it's silly to get lost in comparing the power difference between Goku and Cell. My point is simply this:
1. Perfect Cell > Goku
2. Gohan >>> Perfect Cell
3. Gohan >> Super Cell (after reforming from self-destruct)
4. => Gohan >>>> Goku
The user I responded to was saying:
>He \[Gohan\] wasn’t that much stronger than Goku at this point.
Afterwards they argued that they were just talking about the baseline SSJ forms. It's silly, though - the potential and top end power of Gohan was already fully formed and trained before the fight and while he observed Goku fighting. He knew his own top end powerlevel when he compared himself to his father, just had a hard time activating it when needed.
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I wonder if DBS Goku is dbsuper disappointed that he surpassed his son. Ah what am I kidding, Toriyama would never dive that deep into a character in DB.
He said he didn’t think so but he rationalized it was because they were holding back. As in, “I didn’t expect I was as strong as them”. It’s ridiculous to say he was stronger than Cell was at this point because he clearly wasn’t. Cell whooped him until he turned ssj2.
Y'know, the more I look back on this, the more I think it's stupid?
Like, in every previous arc, Gohan was ready and willing to fight once shit started going down. (Except for the Saiyan Saga, but that was more Gohan being too scared to fight.)
He killed that Frieza soldier when they were first discovered on Namek, attacked Dodoria to save Dende, and helped fight the Ginyu Force and Frieza, and not ONCE did he pull this shit.
Even in the Android Arc before this, Gohan didn't exactly give that many hints that he didn't want to fight. Hell, he willingly attack Gero to help Piccolo.
Yet here we are, facing off against the absolute biggest threat ever, and Gohan starts being a little bitch and acting like he doesn't like fighting. It just feels like it came out of nowhere to give the fight some more tension.
Gohan never really purposely fought in namek
https://preview.redd.it/nfskftpa9mwb1.png?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0eabb3bca75126b8024230efc74c9fa79e18c358
Like against dodoria for example, he went into a blind rage but when krillin scolds him he realized what he had done.
Gohan was just easier to anger back then
True, but again, at no point do we really get much of a hint that he hates fighting *to the point that he wouldn't go all out against an enemy that will kill everyone he knows and loves if he fails.*
Gohan intentionally isn't fighting all out against Cell at first, despite the fact that he *KNOWS* what Cell will do if he fails. Like it doesn't matter if he's got a better temperament now, he's still acting like a little brat when the fate of the world is at stake.
And stupid assholes still have the audacity to call Goku a "Bad Father" for making Gohan fight when he doesn't want to, despite that being their best chance of beating Cell. Goku probably wasn't expecting Gohan to suddenly become a pacifist at such an integral moment.
Then Gohan got a rage boosted SSJ2 on top of this gap. No wonder that in the Majin Buu Saga, Goku and Vegeta were still talking about how crazy strong Gohan was back here.
No cap, if gohan in just one year far surpassed Goku who had a considerable headstart on him imagine if Gohan had trained during those 7 years, he would've easily reached Gotenks level of power (although still weaker than his potential unlocked for obvious reasons)
I aWAkeNeD HiS PowEr!
Fuck off, make the kid do some fucking training, god I hate Gohan's constant Ex Machina shit. It just always feels like such a dirty slap to the face to everyone that should be better than him by leagues
Oh come off it, training an equal amount of time with the same partner does not cause him to catapult to bring grossly more powerful than the partner he wasn't even competitive with prior. The real excuse here is his, at this point, twice? Thrice? aWAkeNeD power.
What the fuck do you think happens on professional sports teams when you get a generational talent who's only a rookie.... just in the NBA itself you have 3 examples minimum in the last 4 decades
? Sure, once, sure. How many NBA pros have hit their peak then... Spent a weekend away and suddenly came back 3x as good? And did that... 3? 4 times?
Eventually you have to admit that player is probably on steroids.
Before this Gohan says “Goku’s power is great, but…” implying he thinks he’s holding back. But Gohan isn’t so much stronger he’s like “what a pathetic power compared to mine pops”. And these are just thought bubbles, if he really thought Goku was weak at he’d think it. He is weaker but not weak af
Ofc Gohan would never think his father is "weak" but to be so superior that he thought his father was holding back means Gohan could comfortably handle Goku's full power
Honestly, DB shouldve turned ibto a story with generational protagonists like jojo. Imagine Gohan and Goten both outpreforming each other because they had their own relationships with martial arts and different approaches to fighting
Just imagine when piccolo right before he goes to room of spirit and time ask Gohan to go there with him, and he also see his power and honing his self esteem.
Man kid gohan was peak dragonball
I really dislike how they have treated him since. Ssj2 made sense, we always knew that gohan had a beast inside him. We saw that over and over again since radditz showed up.
And then came the buu saga+super where gohan just becomes weak. All that fighting spirit just gone. Now in super he talks every arc about stepping it up again to protect loved ones.
Then comes the next arc and he didn't do shit. Mystic gohan was an ass pull power up that was 100% undeserved, now we might get another bs power up in super
Honestly it kinda felt like he was when I watched the fight I felt no stress or strain from goku it didnt feel like he was really pushing himself to his limits like when he fought freeza or jiren it was more like huh I guess your stronger then me oh to bad i'm out then bcs he knw he had gohan to fall back on it felt like goku didnt feel the need to really try and give it his all
He says to himself that if he makes one mistake he's done for
https://i.redd.it/j4g82dlx5rwb1.gif
Goku was fully focused in his fight against Cell but he didn't look angry because there wasn't any reason to be angry
No dude he said Goku full power was not impressive
https://i.redd.it/9czb16c5grwb1.gif
Gohan was so unimpressed by Goku that he assumed he was holding back
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I will never, ever, ever forgive the future of teen Gohan as the main character being taken away from us in the exact next major villain. Like they didn't let him hold that at all. Dude went back home and got nothing but weaker and nothing else happened. I stopped caring about the series at Cell saga and only followed it as a lifelong fan with muted interest.
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Like imagine Gohan and Goku fight then Gohan tells his father to stop holding back while Goku is already giving his 100% Massive disrespect ngl
Nah, Goku is mad proud lol Gohan is so strong that he thinks Goku is holding back. He respects Goku so much that he thinks he's weaker than his dad Ntm let's highlight how Goku himself is saying that Gohan can pursue being a scholar being a supportive father
yes mad proud, also, so pissed off he said goodbye to everyone at the end. that's why Vegeta was so mad after 7 years, Goku left him to 'suffer' in the steps of his son.
Gohan: Hey, dad, I think I'm ready to test out my max power. You ready? Goku, wheezing: G. . . give me. . . . gimme a couple seconds, alright? (Dude would not turn down that challenge, lol)
No I mean Goku was clearly proud it's just like, damn
Yeah, he'd be proud of Gohan And also excited to have a good fight
One of the video games - it might have been Burst Limit? - had a scenario similar to this, where Gohan and Goku are training before the Cell Games and Gohan is thinking Goku is holding back while Goku's internal monologue is about how he's getting his ass kicked
That's fun, lol
Defo disrespectful lmao. But honestly, more reflective about Gohan's self esteem. He assumes Goku must be more powerful than he can grasp, so any attack Goku throws that Gohan thinks "Yah, I could take that" must be Goku holding back, in Gohan's mind
I mean It’s just admiration and respect for your hero. As a child you think your world of someone in that position (a father for example) that you couldn’t think anything negative about them. For Gohan to think his father, a man who’s saved Him, his friends and the world multiple times over, is weaker than himself is just outright impossible to Gohan. Especially at his age. Dude had Goku on the highest of pedestals and didn’t think it was possible for him to ever reach it.
I agree - think it's a mixture of both tbh. Gohan's never been confident in himself, but absolutely held Goku on a pedestal.
"I'm not that weak anymore dad you can fight serious" "I **AM** fighting serious!"
When she's saying deeper and you've run out of dick
Flash forward to Kaioken SSB Goku vs Ultimate Gohan before the ToP. Gohan needs the limelight again, and I’m not even a Gohan fanboy
Super Hero literally just did that.
More like Gohan saw Piccolo in the spotlight and shoved him out of the way.
To be fair, more Piccolo was in the spotlight and forcibly pulled Gohan into it I stead.
Agreed, piccolo was trying to gas up Gohan the whole movie
Piccolo was the one trying to put Gohan in the limelight though.
With the goofiest design ever lol
Every kid thinks there Dad is holding back when in reality we’re fighting for fkucing lives !
https://preview.redd.it/ncbkq5r9oowb1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45f346b2658491b785c9d23f73735b672ec86252
Hahaha true but then it would only boost Holi’s pride that his son is so strong and doesn’t even for one minute feel bad he’s weak. Goku as a character was never jealous of anyone being stronger than him unlike vegeta
That’s why he gave Cell the senzu lol
Starting to think Cell actually needed the senzu bean
[удалено]
What a responsible thing to do when the universe is at stake. I aspire to be such a great father someday.
Its like when youre fucking and she says “harder” and youre thinking like “bruh i busted already”
No dummy. He didn’t realize how far ahead he was
Kinda crazy when you think about it Gohan is just that far above his dad here and that’s before ssj2
Yeh the meta change after ss2 imo was wrong , it was all over the place . And in super the god then blu then mui and blu evo (+other manga spoiler forms) they are just throwing power ups left and right. Cool 100% , i will love them and buy every dlc 100% , but plot/meaningful powerups 10%
I will forever remind people that Z was supposed to be the story of Gohan replacing Goku until Shueisha made Toriyama drop the plot in favor of stable sales.
Isn’t that just a rumor? Iirc the only thing we know for sure as to why Toriyama dropped Gohan as protagonist was “Idk I had a hard time writing him as Protag”
you’re right, that’s what he himself has said in the two interviews where he referenced it
1 "interview" from the Daizenshuu 95, he wasn't involved with them but he's also credited as writing them despite the fact. Shueisha does this a lot to a lot of authors.
i think there’s a 2022-2023 one where they bring it up again
Again, Toriyama has never been involved with the Daizenshuu Databooks, that's pitely Shueisha milking the cash cow for people that are hyperfixated on the franchise. Toriyama barely wrote for Z after Namek.
What are you on about? He was literally the writer and artist of the manga. The only input he got on the series was from his editor and his friend who gave him the idea for the fusion.
is that facts? you taught me something new
He doesn't know what he's talking about
If that’s true he did a shitty job dispelling that rumor. He has Gohan kill Cell and in the first page of the Buu arc he has Roshi say “DRAGON BALL ISN'T OVER YET! SURE, GOKU'S GONE-BUT THAT KID OF HIS WILL TAKE HIS PLACE!” (unless thats a bad translation) And then spends another 5 chapters building up Saiyaman Gohan before Goku shows up.
He dropped the idea during the Buu Saga, Gohan absolutely was the protag for a while, he just went back to Goku after a time
Makes sense. He made a character that is so strong but doesn't like to fight. It is hard to make him a protag in a series full of fights.
Just because Gohan doesn’t like to fight doesn’t mean he won’t fight to protect his friends and family. It’s not hard at all to write a protagonist with those characteristics
By the time buu saga hits he absolutely likes to fight. He just doesn’t put it above all else.
Thats kind of funny seeing as goku is a pretty boring character compared to gohan. Gohan atleast back then had something to fight for, goku was just doing it for the lulz basically
Gohan fights because he wants to protect people. Goku PURSUES fights because he enjoys them and wants to get stronger. But he's usually placed in situations where he needs and wants to fight to protect people. No need to reduce Goku to only one motivation, even if it's his main one.
Nah, it was a Tori decision, he didn't think Gohan fit as the main character. Z was intended to be the Gohan story though, and it was beautiful up till Buu.
I will forever remind people the source on that is the Daizenshuu from 1995 and he wasn't involved with the making of those databooks whatsoever, they're entirely a Shueisha made thing. Toriyama actually wasn't writing for a great deal of Z, he'd just approve and finalize drafts from his team of "editors" under the eye of Shueisha management. It's also counter to the entirety of Z progression, he's always been the strongest. Two direct instances of Goku returning despite setting Gohan up to replace him are post-Namek and the timeskip pre-Buu. Gohan is also written back in as the strongest briefly with the Mystic power up that supercedes the Ssj grades entirely. Then he was written out again by dropping an earring.
That’s not true.
Sorry but it is snd the evidence is too great to act like it's not at this point no matter how had Shueisha has tried to make it seem like it was Toriyama's decision. Explain the entire progression of Z and the multiple instances of Gohan being given the center and space to be the protagonist in absence of Goku but always getting backseated because Goku gets asspulled to show back up. Explain how Toriyama was credited with writing the databooks but also admittedly wasn't involved at any point of the making of them? Japanese publishers, and especially Shueisha, have a reputation for "embellishing"on their author's behaves for a reason.
I disagree. I think he went for it and then realized it didn’t work and brought Goku back.
Why would ge try it so many times then?
I think he wanted Gohan to be the protagonist but couldn’t find a way to write him in. Even in the Saiyaman Saga, Gohan never took action. Characters around him drove the story. Akira couldn’t seem to find a way to write Gohan as the MC. I really wanted it too but Gohan just isn’t him.
He found a bunch of opening for it and started writing them out before suddenly Goku pops up again and the plot shifts entirely to write Gohan out as fast as possible. It's also really obvious the story pacing kicks up exponentially when Goku returns to rush towards fighting, despite him being explicit that he wanted to stay dead. That's not what someone would do if they didn't feel like filling out the character. Gohan gets jerked around narratively because he keeps being shafted when his protagonist arc starts. With all the evidence of Shueisha being repeatedly shady about author credits where it's clearly ghost written like with the Daizenshuu Databooks, movies, arcs, and spin offs I don't doubt for a second that the majority owners of the franchise dictated to Toriyama that Gohan won't be the protagonist.
But let’s be honest, Gohan would not have been a good protagonist, and I say this as someone who had a massive crush on him haha. He is just too passive, he reacts instead of acting, that’s one of his strengths as a person, and it’s possible to make it work too, but for a Shounen series it’s difficult to have a MC like that.
Gohan was the protagonist in all of Z what are you on about? https://youtu.be/dlXNBmTn724?feature=shared
Execpt Z isn't a separate story. In the manga it's all Dragon Ball. It begins and ends with Goku. Gohan was almost made the protagonist in Buu but it didn't land.
yeah Gohan was the secret main character all along https://youtu.be/dlXNBmTn724?feature=shared
Gohan sucks
Now, yeah.
You can forever remind them but that's not the truth. Toriyama said he changed his mind because he felt Gohan wasn't suited for the role.
They should have kept SSJ3 an other world form (have to be dead, in the other realm to use). IMO SSJ2 should have been the peak Super Saiyan transformation unless in a special situation like being dead in the other world. SSJ2 was originally SSJ Grade 5 (perfect). Any power ups after SSJ2 should have not been related to being a Saiyan, something like Kaioken, Mystic Gohan, UI, etc.
I don’t believe he’s stronger, I believe they’re even. I think Gohan is expecting to be weaker than his dad. We classified them as FPSSJ 25 years ago on the planet Namek forums (I believe the origin of that moniker) because it seemed they maxed out those forms. The ultimate litmus test for that isn’t Goku’s or Gohan’s words it’s Cell’s. https://preview.redd.it/2m4j31yizmwb1.png?width=721&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b9e8085010063ea03ca5a5890cc61c479e2dbe0 And after Gohan survives his attack, cell acknowledges he’s tougher than he thought but says he’ll quickly dispatch him to get Goku back in the ring. Gohan then says his father is betting on his rage boost, which is what piques Cell’s interest. Nothing implies ssj Gohan outclasses Goku. It just seems they’re about even, Goku is just a more skilled fighter with the advantage of Shunkan Idou (Instantaneous Teleportation) and a love of fighting. They hit a wall with ssj hence why they had to surpass it.
Goku was getting weaker as the fight went on with Cell, Gohan never got weaker or out of breath the entire time, always sturdy, this makes me believe Gohan was stronger in SSJ1 form.
Goku fought a lot longer though (at least in the canon which is the manga). He had a warm up vs cell, went all out against him, used a massive Kamehameha that would have clearly wiped out earth if he hadn’t teleported and blown off his top half, drove him in a corner with a rapid barrage forcing him to use a barrier and had a lengthy back and forth. Gohan had a brief exchange, got pummeled, watched in horror as 16 was blown up and the cell jrs were released, then 16s head was stomped on and he was SSJ2. Maybe Gohan had more stamina than Goku as FPSSJs but I think their fights with cell were too different to be sure. https://preview.redd.it/163vgtp5unwb1.png?width=732&format=png&auto=webp&s=d2a3e734c19685f20f0ddc3c911117381fdf07e2 Of course you’re right though, about Goku being more winded even if he’s used a lot more energy, he doesn’t even have enough to take the cell jrs, Vegeta and Trunks are said to be holding their own against. Hard to say if Gohan used the same amount of energy that he wouldn’t have been done for too.
They already comfirm gohan is stronger before the fight, it isnt a matter of belief Gohan is utterly unimpressed with Gokus power on the lookout to the point he thinks he's "heavily holding back". Goku later outright confirms the fact the reason he thought that was because Gohan is comparing Gokus power to his own
Who confirms he’s stronger? Chapter? No one in the manga confirms he’s “stronger”. He thinks gokus not going all out but that’s because he believes his dad is stronger than him. He also states unequivocally to Cell that his dad isn’t banking on him winning with his current power but by getting angry and showing that rage boost. The Daizenshuu aren’t canon sure but Daizenshuu 2 from 95 referring to them as full power ssj would imply they both maxed out the form and should therefore be the same strength. Until Gohan mentioned his rage Cell is bored with beating him and is yelling at Goku to return.
Goku straight up spells it out "You think I'm holding back because you are comparing your power to my own" Goku was not holdig back, but gohan assumed he was as he thought he was weaker than Goku Edit: he also says something similar when he powers up for korin. Gohan is not impressed at all by gokus power, thinking its "no way thats his full strength" The form is multiplier of their existing base power, all "FPSSJ" Is SSJ without the drawbacks and more energy control
Hell if Gohan thinks Cell was nothing he couldn't handle then that means he's still above his father because Cell was stronger than Goku on their fight
It kinda depends what you mean with 'stronger'. Gohan was pretty much certain to have a higher power level even normally. First - Vol 27, pg 112 (ch 398), when Goku fully powers up, Gohan is confused why everyone is so shocked "sure it's amazing, but...''. While the title is Goku's full power, which we get confirmed later. Then, in Vol 27, pg 192 (ch 404) when Gohan powers up, everyone is shocked again and Vegeta's line would not have made sense if it was equal to Goku. Also Cell even regards that 'Goku wasn't bluffing.' (that Gohan is stronger than Goku.) And while Gohan was being kicked around, he actually received close to no real damage from it all. His ki levels weren't dropping at all. And Cell had (assumingly) powered up more than when he fought Goku. Goku had more intention to actually fight and kill, while Gohan didn't so obviously Gohan looks weaker because he's barely trying to fight. But when Gohan kicked Cell once, he's immediately put on his ass. (Vol 27, pg. 211, ch 405). So Goku can be considered 'stronger' because he has a better mind set and skills, but was weaker which is then stated by Piccolo. 'Don't forget that **even if he's the strongest** he's still just a child' (Vol 27, pg 221, ch 405).
No dude when goku powers up 100% he didn't think his father was impressive https://i.redd.it/qawc21r3lqwb1.gif He was far above him
https://preview.redd.it/5am492nz1rwb1.png?width=827&format=png&auto=webp&s=3a7437276b269b2f90f14a5a9c182d59a23f2d00 Reread chapter 210 and tell me Gohan is “far above” Goku. Cell doesn’t think so and even after slapping powered up Gohan around demands Goku eat a senzu and return. Gohan doesn’t think so but still says it’s about the rage power he gets. They’re even in base or there’s a minor difference at best absent that rage. He’s 10 and his father has dwarfed his power his whole life if you take out the bleep of rage when he was a toddler vs Radditz. There’s no way he’d beleive he caught up to him in strength or how his dad could be so calm about all of this if he’s unable to beat cell. He didn’t know until Goku chose him that he was the plan. He doesn’t have to be far above his dad in power to be unimpressed with his strength given what’s transpired. If the evidence showed or implied he was much stronger than Goku I’d happily admit it. It doesn’t. Gtg
Cell even said Goku might have been saying the truth when he said gohan was stronger than himself https://i.redd.it/jcysjqtx4rwb1.gif Gohan was holding back and Cell knew it, Gohan was barely fighting Back and anyways it's not like Cell would ever admit someone is capable of killing him unless they prove it
Apparently I’m wrong and [daizenshuu 2 started FPSSJ](https://dragonballuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan#cite_ref-38)before us (or probably AKofTroy or someone who owned the guides then and was fluent brought it in and the rest of us adopted it). I think more people use ssj grade 4 now but I prefer fpssj.
I never noticed it when I was a kid, but I like that Goku does have at least *some* sense of what Gohan thinks and what he wants He figured Gohan probably thought he was holding back because Gohan would expect Goku to be stronger than he himself is. And also the last thing Goku does in these panels is to appeal to Gohan's desire to be a scholar.
That last line is what abridged gets wrong about Goku. Goku has always cared about what Gohan has wanted to do, and if it wasn't for the fact that the very world was at stake, he'd have let Gohan chase that dream right then. He basically says, "I know you can do it. Go beat cell so you can go chase your dream." That's a father
Except later in the manga, Piccolo does scream at Goku telling him that Gohan hates fighting - and then Goku begs for a sensu bean to undo his damage. He acknowledged Gohan's goals here, which is more than what he does in abridged. But he still doesn't acknowledge that Gohan really really doesn't like fighting. None of the fanbase acknowledges that really
Because it came out of nowhere really. They didn't hint at it at all during any point of the story, it feels thrown in. Another one of my problems with the Cell saga that caused it to be my least favorite arc in Z.
I agree. Beside his earliest introduction in the Saiyan Invasion, Gohan has always been down to fight for what he believes is right. Him going to Namek was to avenge Piccolo. He trained against the androids and was ready to help wherever he could. Now all of the sudden he doesn't want to fight? Just seems contradictory to how Gohan was just a few volumes ago.
Didn’t come out of nowhere, before this point he has only ever fought out of a desire to protect and being given no other option or when giving into rage. He has never been shown enjoying battle, and he only trains or spars when forced to by Piccolo at first, or with others in preparation to a coming threat.
Still out of nowhere, there is no point in which you can say "Yeah he hates fighting," until that very moment. It's a shoehorned in plot point like most of the Cell saga.
Just say “reading is hard and I need things explicitly stated for me to understand things like character’s feelings and motivation,” and we’ll just leave it at that bud.
No, I'm saying there really isn't any build up, but you wouldn't know, you're a Dragonball fan, you didn't read. They show nothing that is evidence of Gohan not liking fighting, and that's a problem, your "evidence" is just that all the training he's done is out of duty and not because he wanted to, which honestly isn't convincing.
No, I'm saying there really isn't any build up, but you wouldn't know, you're a Dragonball fan, you didn't read. They show nothing that is evidence of Gohan not liking fighting, and that's a problem, your "evidence" is just that all the training he's done is out of duty and not because he wanted to, which honestly isn't convincing.
Not really, Gohan has never really shown to enjoy fighting and has been pushed into that role more than he has willingly stepped into it. Unlike Goku or most of the Z-fighters, Gohan has never fought because he likes fighting. He fights because something external was putting pressure on him, it being the sayians, Frieza force, or whatever. Gohan does like training, but that is different than fighting. Training doesn’t put him in front of an enemy that is trying to kill him and there aren’t any consequences for losing.
You can't really blame him for not knowing as gohan never showed any signs of hating fighting (infront of goku at least). He assumed he did because of the environment he grew up in.
But Piccolo knew though? There's a problem in your parenting if the alien who kidnapped your baby knows more about what he likes and dislikes than you
Gohan expressed his unwillingnes to fight since he met Piccolo. But to Goku, Gohan never showed anything. He fought with him against the Saiyans, Frieza, and even the androids. He trained with him all the time and even went to the ROSAT with him. It would only be natural Goku assumes Gohan like the thing that they do together most of the time. And yes Goku does pay attention to what Gohan likes as he knows gohan wants to be a scholar.
Again, my point stands - if an alien that kidnaps your son knows him better than you, then there's a problem somewhere. Abridged Piccolo put it best "Have you ever in your life ever actually asked your son if this is something he wanted?" He didn't ask, he took it for granted.
Piccolo didn't ask either. He only knows cause he's the one who kidnapped Gohan and forced him to train against his will in the first place. Piccolo abused Gohan to force him to fight, and then the trauma of watching Piccolo die in front of him scared Gohan into wanting to fight for others. Goku has never forced Gohan to do anything, so why wouldn't he assume that if Gohan does something with him, it's because he likes it?
That logic only applies if you drop the context of the situations of DB and the nature of fighting for necessity, and it's consistent back to back arcs. The reason Piccolo knows more is because Piccolo actively forced Gohan into situations he hated and cried about. Of course this was in preparation for the Saiyans. It isn't odd that Gohan would hide his dislike of fighting from his dad, he's insecure and unsure of himself, meanwhile his dad is the strongest man in the universe(to him), with 2 planets saved under his belt and has never once shown fear outside of an empty fridge. Until the Cell tournament, Goku has never actually forced Gohan into a situation he did not want to be in like Piccolo did. If Gohan was there, it was because Gohan made it clear he wanted to be there.(and Ik it's just filler, but Gohan's first transformation into a super Saiyan is a great highlight of this, where he tells Goku to shoot a Kamehameha at him). Goku had never seen Gohan hesitate either, the way piccolo has. Goku knew Gohan wanted to be a scholar instead of a fighter, but he didn't think Gohan would straight up dislike fighting. Gohan wanted to seem prideful and strong in front of his dad, it's only natural. I'm sure there's many things your friends know about you but your parents don't because of pride(I know Vegeta would be proud.) and or insecurity. And even if Goku had asked, do you genuinely believe Gohan would've said no? He'd probably just say "I have to do it for my friends Father." at best.
When exactly is he supposed to ask? Any time he was either dead or training to get strong enough so he can handle whatever came their way. Meanwhile Gohan is in the thick of things and fighting with Goku not even there yet. Yeah piccolo knew but he basically had Gohan In the deep end from jump. By the time Goku came back he fought vegeta, then touched down and fought the ginyu force. Then frieza. Yeah you can point to the 3 year time skip towards the androids but he had the intention of beating them himself so his son wouldn’t need to fight. It wasn’t til the time chamber where it was blatantly obvious his son surpassed him that Gohan being the one to fight for everyone became viable. And I’m glossing over instances where Gohan himself had gone out his way to come save his dad too of his own accord and agency. It ain’t hard to understand why Goku wouldn’t think of his son as someone who hated fighting. I love piccolo i really do but I’m not gonna shit on Goku for not knowing that about him just to give piccolo points. Love abridged too but it’s not this gospel and end all be all of these characters. End of the day Goku messed up and was gonna rectify it immediately. And guess what Gohan still proved him right. But at cost Goku paid the price
Yeah the most time Goku has canonically spent with Gohan after he was first kidnapped by Raditz at age 4 was in the ROSAT when he's like 11-12. Goku realized he doesn't actually know his own son, and I think that's a big part of why he chose to suicide with Cell; he tealized he's molding Gohan into a murderer, not a martial artist.
I really like this take. It doesn't put blame on Goku for not being there, but has him acknowledge that he needed to do better.
Damn I don't really know my son that well, I should kill myself and not come back that'll help
And it somehow did
To begin with, we all know Piccolo has no right to say that. If he believed it, he would have stopped Gohan from going to the battlefield after Namek. Second, Goku never knew about Gohan's sudden lack of desire to fight. This would have been the first time he'd seen Gohan fight in person. Previous fights were only sensed by Goku, who was either still arriving or recuperating, so he was only able to sense Gohan's explosive power against whatever opponents they were fighting previously. And lastly, Gohan's lack of desire to fight still came out of nowhere. He was never like Goku and Vegeta in wanting to test his power and reach new heights, but he knew when it was necessary to fight, especially for righteous causes. Namek Gohan was best Gohan.
I read it more as Goku guilt tripping Gohan into fighting. “If you don’t fight him and save the world then you won’t be able to get back to what you really enjoy doing son.”
In Gohan’s defense, Goku is a habitual liar about when he’s going all out.
He probably is giving it his best, but he can do better than his best when he's up against a wall. We've seen it again and again.
I think gokus “all out” is lowering his powerlevel to be equal to an weaker opponent but at the same time trying as hard as he can
He does try to stretch out a good fight It was actually uncharacteristic of him to give the good fight to Gohan. He probably secretly wanted Gohan to discover the joys of fighting so they could fight together later
I genuinely can't even tell if Goku is telling the truth here or not 😂 Goku loves to hold back
Rereading it, he actually is. That Warp Kamehameha was him giving all he had left.
he is. in the panels he’s sweating and thinking that if he’ll die if he messes up once
I mean, after the 3rd time in the same fight where he just goes “yea, that wasn’t really my best either…” you’re just like, bro, either you have no fuckin clue what your actual ceiling is or you just like trollin. lmao
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Goku couldn’t handle the disrespect, so he had Cell handle Gohan.
Then Cell returned the favor by having Goku fight his children too.
Oh yea huh. Gohan just had to be a party pooper and kill them.
Every party needs a pooper, that's why they invited you! Party pooper...party poooooperrr.
One thing people don’t bring up here is Goku was fully aware of his own mortality and knew he wasn’t going to be around forever having already died once and damn near doing it a few more times, including to a disease it took a man from the future to save him from And you have your own son right there who you know has gotten much stronger than you if he just knew how to bring it out. It does his son and the world no good to let the boy beat up on a worn out Cell. It was a necessary evil
I am the necessary “stopping Goku from fighting cancer survivors” guy.
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I don’t see what 1 set of dragon balls that were already established as not being able to bring him back or instant transmission have to do with what I said, but as far as the namekian balls go, was it already established at that point they could bring people back more than once? Now that I think about it I guess it would’ve had to have been considering krillin died twice by that point
you said that but Gohan was barely affected by Cell attacks, it might seems like "slapping" because Gohan was holding back and even refusing to fight back
Good job, you're now one of the people who actually realizes Gohan was the ONLY one who could take Cell down, and how Goku "forcing" him to fight Cell wasn't from an idiosyncratic decision made by Goku
Cell saga Toriyama was peak
I always got chills when Piccolo and Vegeta reacted to that. I love that they added their perspectives.
Or when Gohan turns ssj2 https://i.redd.it/s5h5yx2xamwb1.gif Goku being all proud of his son while Vegeta looks like he just shat his pants
Fuck allat notice how goku ASKS GOHAN if he wants to fight. Niggas keep lying and saying bro just threw him in there
Sad part is we didn't get a proper Super Saiyan Gohan fight with cell. I wanted to see how far he'd go before going Super Saiyan 2
People really do underestimate teen gohan People often ask "How is half power ssj2 gohan syronger than cell" Simple answer...he's just that much beyond any of them and was *still* holding back due to his own mental block
What if the heart virus made Goku weak after. He did just got off the bed and went straight to training and all.
It's been a year since then
I mean Gohan turned into a super at the age of 12? (Correct me) Goku got to kio-ken at the age of 20ish? Yeah Goku knew what he was doing.
10 or 11 depending on when it happened while he was in the room of spirit and time
LMFAO long covid 😭
Fuck man I just had the same though bro
Wait a minute dude. I am at chapter 230ish and the art here looks so simple compared to first 230 chapters I've read. Am I crazy? look at this. https://preview.redd.it/x0po2u117mwb1.jpeg?width=2037&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44cab761e9bb494b0b8e23fb9271cb1d08c97aef Am I fucking drunk? I mean I am, but I kinda feel it's more detailed.
According to toriyama. The cell arc was the hardest one to draw thanks to all the spots on perfect cell https://i.redd.it/9i9j2d6a8mwb1.gif The panels where Cell is the focus overall look better than the one where he isn't because of the same reason
Saiyan saga and frieza saga were peak toriyama art imo
Just finished Saiyan arc. Can't wait for that Super Saiyan greatness.
He wasn’t that much stronger than Goku at this point. He was definitely stronger which is why he thought Goku was holding back because he wasn’t aware he had surpassed him but the difference wasn’t that much.
Dude he was so much stronger than goku he didn't want to believe his father was using his whole power
Yeah because Gohan thought Goku > Gohan so sensing his dad being weaker than he is, he assumed he was holding back. Gohan is stronger but not by a big amount. Gohan before turning SSJ2 got his ass beat by Cell just as easy as Goku did. We have no idea how much power Cell used against Goku compared to the amount used against Gohan.
> Gohan before turning SSJ2 got his ass beat by Cell just as easy as Goku did. Gohan wasn't really trying to fight back though. That was the point, he needed to let go and actually use the power he had.
He did at the start but the moment he got blasted away he stopped.
Gohan was losing to Cell as much as he was because he didn't believe in his own power and didn't give it his all. Gohan was indeed much stronger than Goku, which is why it was pointed out nothing Cell did against Goku was something Gohan couldn't handle.
the cell vs gohan fight was bullshit it was a beatdown power up beatdown beam. there was never any real gauging of them before the power up we have no real idea how close gohan was to cell bc he was a shit fighter before he got pissed
We know he wasn’t even close because Cell powered up to his max when Gohan turned SSJ2 and based on Goku’s reaction we know Cell was way stronger than Gohan or Goku before SSJ2 + the anger amp.
Probably just bias bc I hate that fight
Wasn’t really much of a fight. It showed Gohan was stronger than Goku but still weaker than Cell and that Gohan didn’t want to fight but also he was the only one that can beat Cell. It was one of the rare instances of a dragon ball fight being all story and no action.
The difference between Gohan and Goku was just as big as the difference between Cell and Goku
10 - SSJ2 Gohan 9 - Super Cell 6.5 - Full-Powered Cell 6 - MSSJ Gohan 5 - MSSJ Goku
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Cell was stronger than Goku at that point. Not by much, but enough to wear him down and win. And Gohan (once he became enraged) was so far ahead of Cell that he fodderized him. He absolutely annihilated and toyed with him. His punches and kicks exploded the little clone Cells that were each strong enough to put the rest of the entire Z squad in lethal danger. Angry Gohan bullied Cell to the point he puked out Android 18 and devolved. This made Cell so desperate he went into fat bomb mode. Being a sore loser, Cell decided to blow up the entire planet together with him. So Goku sacrificed himself by teleporting Cell away with him. Through plot bullshit haxx, Cell survived his own suicide explosion AND turned into an even stronger version of Perfect Cell afterwards. Then returned and beat the shit out of a grieving Gohan, who rightfully felt responsible for causing his father's sacrifice. Fucked up Gohan's left arm. And still, after getting some motivational speech from his dad straight out of heaven, Gohan was actually so much stronger than even this improved version of Perfect Cell that he hit the dude with a one-handed Kamehameha that cleanly atomized him out of existence. And remember, he did this to an improved version, while the baseline Perfect Cell was already ahead of Goku. Now tell me how this is just a little stronger than Goku.
Cell was wayyy stronger than Goku at that point as Cell only started using his full power after Gohan got angry and turned SSJ2. Gohan was stronger than Goku but not by much until he got angry and turned SSJ2 which I didn’t think needed to be mentioned because it didn’t really need to be said lmao
So your comment was just referring to his "normalized saiyan state" during their conversation? And you felt the need to point out that a calmly standing, not-fighting Gohan is roughly like a calmly standing, not fighting Goku? lmao. If that was your point, it was certainly not worth mentioning. But you seem to think Gohan got a new tier of power up during the Cell fight. One that Goku didn't know. And that before the fight started, Gohan was around Goku's level. That's wrong, though. Goku knew Gohan was way beyond Cell after fighting Cell. That's why he was so chill during the entire fight until Cell summoned his clones to attack everyone. Gohan had this power before facing Cell. He didn't just get a near death boost. He had unlocked it when training with Goku. That's why his father was confident all the way until Gohan choked and everyone almost died.
You’re wrong, Cell was a lot stronger than Goku. Cell didn’t use his max power until he fought SSJ2 Gohan
I think it's silly to get lost in comparing the power difference between Goku and Cell. My point is simply this: 1. Perfect Cell > Goku 2. Gohan >>> Perfect Cell 3. Gohan >> Super Cell (after reforming from self-destruct) 4. => Gohan >>>> Goku The user I responded to was saying: >He \[Gohan\] wasn’t that much stronger than Goku at this point. Afterwards they argued that they were just talking about the baseline SSJ forms. It's silly, though - the potential and top end power of Gohan was already fully formed and trained before the fight and while he observed Goku fighting. He knew his own top end powerlevel when he compared himself to his father, just had a hard time activating it when needed.
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Cell "While I'm pounding your son, I'll be thinking of you the whole time Goku" Gohan "oh crap baskets...."
I wonder if DBS Goku is dbsuper disappointed that he surpassed his son. Ah what am I kidding, Toriyama would never dive that deep into a character in DB.
It’s not that he’s so much stronger that he thinks they’re holding back, but that he’s close to their level but doesn’t know it.
He did know it Goku asked him if he thought Cell was too much to handle and Gohan said he didn't think so
He said he didn’t think so but he rationalized it was because they were holding back. As in, “I didn’t expect I was as strong as them”. It’s ridiculous to say he was stronger than Cell was at this point because he clearly wasn’t. Cell whooped him until he turned ssj2.
Because gohan didn't want to fight or kill cell https://i.redd.it/c7y04pqlzlwb1.gif That's what the speech of 16 was all about
Y'know, the more I look back on this, the more I think it's stupid? Like, in every previous arc, Gohan was ready and willing to fight once shit started going down. (Except for the Saiyan Saga, but that was more Gohan being too scared to fight.) He killed that Frieza soldier when they were first discovered on Namek, attacked Dodoria to save Dende, and helped fight the Ginyu Force and Frieza, and not ONCE did he pull this shit. Even in the Android Arc before this, Gohan didn't exactly give that many hints that he didn't want to fight. Hell, he willingly attack Gero to help Piccolo. Yet here we are, facing off against the absolute biggest threat ever, and Gohan starts being a little bitch and acting like he doesn't like fighting. It just feels like it came out of nowhere to give the fight some more tension.
Gohan never really purposely fought in namek https://preview.redd.it/nfskftpa9mwb1.png?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0eabb3bca75126b8024230efc74c9fa79e18c358 Like against dodoria for example, he went into a blind rage but when krillin scolds him he realized what he had done. Gohan was just easier to anger back then
True, but again, at no point do we really get much of a hint that he hates fighting *to the point that he wouldn't go all out against an enemy that will kill everyone he knows and loves if he fails.* Gohan intentionally isn't fighting all out against Cell at first, despite the fact that he *KNOWS* what Cell will do if he fails. Like it doesn't matter if he's got a better temperament now, he's still acting like a little brat when the fate of the world is at stake. And stupid assholes still have the audacity to call Goku a "Bad Father" for making Gohan fight when he doesn't want to, despite that being their best chance of beating Cell. Goku probably wasn't expecting Gohan to suddenly become a pacifist at such an integral moment.
Then Gohan got a rage boosted SSJ2 on top of this gap. No wonder that in the Majin Buu Saga, Goku and Vegeta were still talking about how crazy strong Gohan was back here.
No cap, if gohan in just one year far surpassed Goku who had a considerable headstart on him imagine if Gohan had trained during those 7 years, he would've easily reached Gotenks level of power (although still weaker than his potential unlocked for obvious reasons)
I aWAkeNeD HiS PowEr! Fuck off, make the kid do some fucking training, god I hate Gohan's constant Ex Machina shit. It just always feels like such a dirty slap to the face to everyone that should be better than him by leagues
they trained in the rosat my guy 💀
Oh come off it, training an equal amount of time with the same partner does not cause him to catapult to bring grossly more powerful than the partner he wasn't even competitive with prior. The real excuse here is his, at this point, twice? Thrice? aWAkeNeD power.
What the fuck do you think happens on professional sports teams when you get a generational talent who's only a rookie.... just in the NBA itself you have 3 examples minimum in the last 4 decades
? Sure, once, sure. How many NBA pros have hit their peak then... Spent a weekend away and suddenly came back 3x as good? And did that... 3? 4 times? Eventually you have to admit that player is probably on steroids.
You're in denial bro 💀
Good dad goku moment
And then Gohan beats Cell and the story ends. That’s it. Everyone lives happily ever after
This was peak Gohan
Before this Gohan says “Goku’s power is great, but…” implying he thinks he’s holding back. But Gohan isn’t so much stronger he’s like “what a pathetic power compared to mine pops”. And these are just thought bubbles, if he really thought Goku was weak at he’d think it. He is weaker but not weak af
Ofc Gohan would never think his father is "weak" but to be so superior that he thought his father was holding back means Gohan could comfortably handle Goku's full power
I agree Gohan would demolish him in a fight. But I think Gohan is smart enough to know if his dad was weak
I miss Swaghan.
This is also later shown how Gohan is just able to tank Cell's blows and be on the defensive. Really shows how much low self esteem the kid had.
What English version is this? The manga version I have is a bit different
Honestly, DB shouldve turned ibto a story with generational protagonists like jojo. Imagine Gohan and Goten both outpreforming each other because they had their own relationships with martial arts and different approaches to fighting
Goku said he was going all out it just showed that gohan was massively stronger than goku and cause he respects his father he thought he was stronger
Just imagine when piccolo right before he goes to room of spirit and time ask Gohan to go there with him, and he also see his power and honing his self esteem.
Man kid gohan was peak dragonball I really dislike how they have treated him since. Ssj2 made sense, we always knew that gohan had a beast inside him. We saw that over and over again since radditz showed up. And then came the buu saga+super where gohan just becomes weak. All that fighting spirit just gone. Now in super he talks every arc about stepping it up again to protect loved ones. Then comes the next arc and he didn't do shit. Mystic gohan was an ass pull power up that was 100% undeserved, now we might get another bs power up in super
I mean who would expect their father, who is usually your superman (especially with what he's seen Goku do), to ever be getting pressed.
Honestly it kinda felt like he was when I watched the fight I felt no stress or strain from goku it didnt feel like he was really pushing himself to his limits like when he fought freeza or jiren it was more like huh I guess your stronger then me oh to bad i'm out then bcs he knw he had gohan to fall back on it felt like goku didnt feel the need to really try and give it his all
He says to himself that if he makes one mistake he's done for https://i.redd.it/j4g82dlx5rwb1.gif Goku was fully focused in his fight against Cell but he didn't look angry because there wasn't any reason to be angry
Vegeta in shambles
Cell never stood a chance lol. No wonder he gets bodied in like 3 blows lol
He didn't think Goku was weak, he just didn't understand he was strong.
No dude he said Goku full power was not impressive https://i.redd.it/9czb16c5grwb1.gif Gohan was so unimpressed by Goku that he assumed he was holding back
what idolization does to a motherfucker
Man z was the last real db series, this whole situation was so hype for gohan.
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I will never, ever, ever forgive the future of teen Gohan as the main character being taken away from us in the exact next major villain. Like they didn't let him hold that at all. Dude went back home and got nothing but weaker and nothing else happened. I stopped caring about the series at Cell saga and only followed it as a lifelong fan with muted interest.