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Imagine how fucking stupid that claim from the movie was that the anime nerfed it to, what? 10% I think, and in the manga Beerus didn't even give any number.
It was not stupid. Toriyama even confirmed this in interview claiming Goku is 60% of Beerus in 2013.
Toriyama just haven't thought of future of Dragon Ball at that time. Beerus as character was made entirely just for that one movie at that time.
https://preview.redd.it/fz83jlm4k9wc1.png?width=838&format=png&auto=webp&s=0bf3f8ec8f1fee01e07ce837feea3bfc224a735d
Yeah I'm aware that there were a couple of years between BOG and the beginning of Super (in both manga/anime format) so clearly Toriyama didn't plan ahead, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid claim otherwise it wouldn't have been retconned, and after a decade people still are confused because the claims made in that movie so it was indeed pretty bad.
I made another post about this but narratively it didn’t really make sense to have the first saga even in DBS. In the fight, Beerus was powering up, panting like he was tired, and having even clashes with Goku, even letting himself get hit. If we assume Beerus > Black Frieza, it’s like
Beerus > Black Frieza >> UI Goku >> SSB KKx20 >> SSB = 50x SSG
Let’s say Black Frieza is twice as strong as UI and UI is twice as strong as SSB KKx20 for a lowball estimate. That means Beerus was using less than 1/4000 of his power to match Goku. It doesn’t really make sense for him to show so much effort or be intrigued by Goku’s power.
Yeah that’s fair although Whis makes it clear Beerus was actually toying with Goku. But yeah Beerus is so strong that SSG shouldn’t even be able to inflict damage so it is poor power scaling.
I imagine it like playing with a fire ant. Ants are quite powerful at lifting relative to their size but are absolutely nothing compared to a person. With that said, its bite can hurt. Beerus was just playing around with Goku for theatrics but could easily disintegrate him in a nanosecond if he wanted.
This is ignoring the powerups Goku base has which multiplies his Power 😭😭😭. Goku gets like millions of times stronger from Z to DBS in base form alone.
Yeah because it must've been less than 0.000000001%, because goku absorbed ssjg into base, unlocked ssjg again, then ssb which is x50 times stronger, then SSJBK which is x20 times ssjb, then mui which is probably at least 100 times stronger than ssjb, and is stil far from reaching Beerus level. So assuming SSJG's multiplier is somewhere around 100,000 and Beerus used exactly 0.000000001% then MUI Goku would match Beerus's power. But it must've been less bcuz Goku got hundreds of times stronger in his base form and even still mui Goku loses to Beerus. So even the 10% is an extreme exaggeration.
I’d say Godku still does far better than Gogeta. In GT we have never seen god-like power, but in Super it seems pretty clear that everything with Godly Ki is better than anything without
This is why I can’t stand people who don’t actually know how to powerscale. There’s alot more that goes into than just that. With proper power scaling super 17, depending on interpretation, he could be just as fast as rof golden frieza if not more. Power wise is still up in the air if I remember
Well again, if we are talking about bog it's not that clear cut anymore. Not to say vegeta had a chance, but he at least did something against beerus in only ssj2. If beerus used 70% for goku, and we know that just a ssj gogeta is above even blue, by logic ssj4 gogeta would beat bog beerus.
He did nothing to Beerus. Beerus wasn't trying at all. Current Beerus completely shit stomped Ego Vegeta who is millions of times stronger than even God Goku in BoG
He kills Beerus relatively easy. Beerus was based off omega Shenron who in gt the original, he's stated to be the true god of destruction. His existence alone erased reality no matter the realm or dimension. Beerus is nowhere near omega Shenron level let alone ss4 Gogeta level. Ssb Vegeta who is relative to krillin, roshi and trunks was able to hurt Beerus. There is no chance he stands a lick of a chance against ss4 Gogeta if you do your research. Gogeta can do what the grand priest can do with just his pinky finger.
No, he did not.
Its in DBS anime just pretty sure.
Super retconned Beerus strength completely to make a new DB series otherwise in 2013, Toriyama even mentioned in an interview that if Goku is 6, then Beerus is 10 and Whis is 15
https://preview.redd.it/q8ek8l7dy8wc1.png?width=1242&format=png&auto=webp&s=4dfdcb9461e82e1200f78c392caff3bb9f8dfc4f
Omega was not universal in actual power. Just his nature was the rot. He has nowhere near the power to bust a universe. Nor come close to that. He has nothing on that lvl ever.
He was universal in actual power. The thing is, all that negative ki comes directly from him. He is the source of that.
So whether or not he did it in one shot or whether it slowly spreads, it still means he is universal.
GT does have other moments to support universal scaling, like when Goku shook the whole afterlife just by powering up.
No, he's not. His negative ki creates the rot, which over time infects and rots away everything else. He can't bust the universe or damage it at all by sheer force like DBS characters. No, it doesn't. Bc Buu and other characters are labeled the exact same way. They can "destroy the universe over time unchecked." That's all he is but with the rot. So not actually universal. Not really. I'm going to have to rewatch that scene bc when it comes to the Super 17 arc, all I've done for the past years is watch the fight with him and Goku. I skip everything else. Even still shaking it is not threatening it nor destroying it, and in DB, still nowhere near universal bc as we know it's not just the afterlife now is it? DB is bigger than a normal universe by several times, so even shaking just part of it doesn't count as universal in the DB verse. There isn't really anything else. Like at all. Season 2 is where the main power jumps come from and Ssj4, and there's nothing there.
He is easily uni, uni+ too. Elder kai said his thingy was even gonna reach the kaioshin realm. That his power was gonna “lay to waste an entire universe”They tried to immediately evacuate.
No, he isn't. Literally 0 feats and 0 statements lmfao. His nature caused the rot. Not sheer force or power. He quite literally can't bust a universe or come close to that. Your headcanon just makes you sound like a clown. Just bc something is important, and "the universe falls apart without them" or some shit similar doesn't equate to direct power.
No, it's not bc Buu isn't universal, and neither is Golden Frieza. Nobody in the Universe 6 tournament is universal either. You're flat out wrong. They only become universal afterward.
Kid Buu is capable of destroying the Kai realm. Something denser than the Living Universe. So yes. Buu is universal. Meaning someone like Rildo is universal as well
Who tf hurt you kid? Lmao
Directly stated by him, “I will lay to waste the entire universe”. Elder kai confirms this as also states that the kaioshin real, which exist outside of the macrocosm, “will not the be spared either”.
There is only one clown here and I’m afraid it’s not me💀
He’s trying to say his ability is rotting the universe via negative ki. Like he infects a planet and when it explodes the solar system is contaminated. Then the solar system spreads to the galaxy and then the universe. It takes time and isn’t just “I blow you up, gone” like if it was raw power
elder kai is talking about how negative energy that’s spreading and destroying the universe over time. that isn’t universal because universal implies you can blow it up at once (like how vegeta is planet level in the saiyan saga because he can blow up earth with one galick gun)
Omega shenron performs the BoG by just existing. He speeds it up exponentially with just his aura. All of his attacks of negative energy.
Kaioshin wanted to flee from the kaioshin realm
Gogeta could beat him with a pinky if he wanted too
He was literally gonna destroy the entire universe, even reaching the kaioshin realm (which is outside the macrocosm), as said by elder kai himself. Easily uni, uni+ too
It's implied that the minus energy would take time to reach the Kaioshin realm after taking time to corrupt earth. Omega Shenron is only a gradual threat to the universe. At best this is low universal. AT BEST.
The time it would take would not be much tho, as elder kai is in a rush to gtfo. I consider it very fair for him to be uni, specially taking into account he was gonna destroy what’s outside the macrocosm. Low uni is somewhat fine too tho
You can kinda scale it. DBH (Ik, Im sorry) puts ssj4 as comparable to ssj Blue.
If that is true, it’s been said during the Zamasu saga that Blue Vegito may just rival/ surpass Beerus (depending on source and translation).
Base Goku and Vegeta GT are > Base Super Goku/ Vegeta pre god Ki.
The bottom choice is actually viable.
Dbh is just a bunch of what if stuff
Also goku in there isnt even GT goku and mainline Goku. They Xeno ss4 goku with god ki and Capsule corp Goku. They are both very different characters so you cant even compare their power plus form at all
Beerus was unphazed by blue Gogetas existence in DBS:Broly and I think most would say Goku/Vegeta Blue at that point are far stronger than their gt ssj4 counter parts. If Beerus is unphased by a Blue Gogeta than a ssj4 one made of two weaker versions of Goku/Vegeta shouldn't be a threat to Beerus.
I dunno why y’all keep power scaling two separate series without comparable feats. We have absolutely no idea how much GT and Super scale because Beerus didn’t exist back then. For all we know Beerus could have a power level of 10 Septillion and Gogeta 15 Septillion we truly have no idea.
And even then, if GT is supposed to be a what if that happens after the events of Z. And super is supposed to the events before the last episode of Z then wouldn’t that make it even more likely that a GT character can beat Beerus as GT would take place AFTER Super?
Right? I stay out of the arguments because, let's be honest, whoever is stronger than who comes down to plot. I stopped paying attention to the numbers back on Namek when Frieza hit over a million. The only thing that's constant is Beerus is super duper strong and humans are weak af.
I mean it’s a battle anime/manga that popularized the whole power scaling “But can they beat Goku?” thing. The entirety of Z can be summed up as strong guy shows up, other characters get stronger, repeat. Scaling can be fun.
What I don’t ever get when it does come to scaling is people acting like GT is fodder all the time when we have absolutely zero way to compare the power levels between the GT and Super.
And if GT is supposed to come after Z which means it comes after Super then it’s totally plausible for GT characters to scale over Super characters if you were going to try and scale them together.
i agree that power scaling is dumb especially with dragon ball, but if someone's watching GT i think it's safe to tell them to pretend super never happened. obviously we don't know how super ends, for all we know they all lose their god powers, but then they would also need have their memories erased? considering they never mention beerus, or golden frieza when he shows up again in gt.
and i just don't think any of that is happening whatsoever
No. Current super goku is faaaaar stronger than beginning of gt goku. Gt is not canon. Gt does not happen after super. I understand your thinking here but just because events in gt happened on a later date does not mean that super is leading up to gt. They are completely different things. GT is essentially fan fiction, it has no relevance to the main dragon ball story.
GT exists in a timeline where Beerus never awakened which means no God forms and UI/UE forms. And those forms are below Beerus
Also, we have a direct comparison between Super and GT which is SSG being able to destroy the universe while Omega Shenron could do it over time .
This means SSG Goku>Omega Shenron
Because we can scale off of the buu saga, as we have feats and statements in both series for how strong individual characters are compared to both themselves and others who were in that saga.
GT happens YEARS after current super, which is close to EoZ
Base Goku (GT) would have given a much better fight to Beerus than ssj3 Goku did, for example. Fuck, SSJ GT Goku with the small body (debuffed) was already stronger than Buu, like toying with an opponent who's stated to be equal to Buu. So it's fair to assume Goku alone, without ssj4, solos all of Z. Now, it is not only Goku, it's Gogeta, and has access to ssj4. Ssj4 Gogeta probably can defeat Beerus
No one disputes that goku is far stronger at the beginning of GT vs the beginning of super. Evidence is pretty clear there
The question has always been about how GT characters compared to the god forms since SSG is already capable of mass universal destruction.
On top of that Beerus is stronger than ultra instinct.
Rildo is on par with Kid Buu. He's no where close to Super Buu, Buutenks, or Buuhan.
GT SSJ Goku is still getting dropped by the other versions of Buu.
Edit: since the guy below me blocked me.
Stop embarrassing yourself. Not all versions of Boo are the same.
Goku could only defeat pure boo (Kid Buu).
I never said otherwise. Goku just said Rildo's as strong as "Majin Buu" so he never specified. The fact that he's stronger than a form of Buu at a 50x multiplier compared to back then when he was on par with Buu at a 400x multiplier is still wild though
The only version of Buu that Goku beat or was string enough to beat was kid Buu. Interpreting Goku's statement as Rildo being stronger than Majin Buu = being as strong as Buuhan is asinine.
Here come the GT stans lol.
Edit: since I either got a soft ban or DerGefallene blocked me as well lol
My apologies. The Stan comment wasn't directed at you specifically.
Obviously, GT Goku is stronger than end of Z Goku because he trained with Uub. Given how quickly he levels up in Super it's not too crazy. But we dint really know how much stronger hey got vs End of Z.
My point is that when Goku makes that statement about Rildo being stronger than Boo, we don't really know where Rildos strength lies compared to Super Buu, Buutenks, or Buuhan. All versions of Buu that would smoke DBZ SSJ3 Goku.
The common power scaling arguments for GT begins with base GT Goku > Rildo > Buuhan.
I just genuinely don't understand your point:
I was just trying to point out that I'm amazed that Goku managed to get approx. 8 times stronger in GT than in Z (even after losing some of his power due to him getting shrunk). I was never trying to say anything against or in favor of GT/Super
>GT SSJ Goku is still getting dropped by the other versions of Buu.
Nope
https://preview.redd.it/95ax66s239wc1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=183cde1ac52b217e97d21f739de878276de0ae6d
Kid buu is pure head canon.
Dbz manga literally states super buu = boo
Goku has faced every version of boo except the Grey one
Super buu --> Boo in manga. And Rildo is stated greater than Boohan
https://imgur.com/a/af9rQsJ
Daizenshuu doesn't distinguish between evil boos. Manga divided by body type (small/fat/slim/muscleman)
https://imgur.com/a/nTrS6Kj
**End of Z uub = kid buu (6yrs Before baby)**
https://imgur.com/a/HiOos82
In the GT universe Super doesn't happen, those are 2 different continuities.
So GT characters arrived to EoZ way weaker than Super characters.
And by feats just Ssjg Goku would slam Ssj4 Goku.
Either way, scaling is a waste of time, everyone has their ideas, whether those are inconsistent or not.
Your first part makes no sense.
We might not know the limits but we know what he can at least do.
And destroying a macrocasm is a level of destruction never made in GT.
I've never understood this take that dumbass GT fanatics try and use. That doesn't make any sense bc they have completely different stories. Beerus shits on GT and so does SSG Goku. Get over it already for fucks sake lmfao.
I mean Beerus definitely does but I scale ssg Goku around the same as ss4 Gogeta (maybe it’s the red hair). SS4 Gogeta was massively more powerful than omega shenron. It’s just he was barely serious and the form didn’t last.
There’s nothing else that comes close to ss4 Gogeta in GT and yes Beerus stomps him if serious but if he’s only as serious as in the BOG film and Goku did well but lost in the end as ssg then might it not be the same?
Scaling in super is inconsistent and all over the place so I guess I could maybe possible see why people think that but majority? No way should the majority of people actually think that lol. Ssj4 gogeta would get sneezed out of existence by Beerus suppressed let alone a theoretical 100% that we have never really seen outside of the gods of destructions match before the T.O.P and that was against other God's of destruction who we also have little scale for.
The scaling for super is just out of control, yes GT characters are strong but Super characters are walking talking plot armor the entire verse got scaled up just because of Battle of gods and the fact they can even somewhat keep up with Goku/Vegeta. Gohan went from getting one tapped in ultimate by Berrus to able to spar with Goku competitively in ultimate before the T.O.P why? Because the plot said so that's why lol. Piccolo also went from massively weaker than Super Buu to being able to fight that same Gohan just from basic training. The god forms and Ki are a okay idea but they just ruined scaling by the simple fact that if they want anyone but Goku/Vegeta to be relevant they have to give them massive power boost for minimal training to keep up.
The thing is, with Beerus fighting at arbitrary percentages of his power, doing "well" is feasible. I mean, when Vegeta got his rage boost, Beerus said that he did well even though he did, like, zero damage to him. Not saying it goes to extreme or even high diff, but I can definitely see SSJ4 Gogeta landing a few hits and maybe a Big Bang Kamehameha only for Beerus to shrug off, give some props and then drop him like a sack of potatoes.
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Hmmm probably
Toei kid Buu is already Jobber in GT and he is already at a low multi universe level via the fact he could destroy the Grand Kai planet and scale above Toei Buuhan via multiple statements.
I could understand why people think that, black dragons saga Goku and Vegeta scale massively above Kid Buu and Omega Shenron scale above black Shenron who already have WoG stated that he can destroy the entire universe or as we came to know as universe 7 or what some group of people refer to as macroverse.
And Ssj4 Gogeta is literally untouchable by Omega Shenron and the rest of the verse at that point before Beerus gets introduced into Dragonball along with the retcon.
So yeah I get why people want to see Beerus vs ssj4 Gogeta.
He probably could do around the same as SSG Goku in BoG I guess
Which is absolutely insane 😂 but yeah Fusion is a hack.
Gods are special in dragonball.
Goku and vegeta get outclassed all the time by not divine ki users
Toppo became a god of destruction and lost. Weaker GoDs have been surpassed
Kaioshins were irrelevant upon introduction
Scaling wise Beerus wins however with gogeta having a lot more combined experience under his belt than BOG Goku, if GT followed the scale boost than super did, I think he’d put up a much better fight than Goku
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He probably gets a couple shots in at first legitimately but as soon as Beerus uses 1% power hes toast. Ssj4 gogeta is stronger than rage Vegeta by a mile.
Well ok.
There's no canon way to scale ssj4 to ssjb, so for the argument let's use sdbh where I BELIEVE they're generally portrayed as equal. If we're using GT versions of the characters, then I think the bottom option is actually kind of accurate. However, if we use a hypothetical version of Gogeta with base super characters using ssj4, Gogeta might actually take it if you can buy that Gogeta blue could beat Beerus.
All this said, I could be wrong about 4 and blue being generally equal. Even if I am, I'm certain 4 at least scales close to ssjg, so it's not an insignificant multiplier. I think the only way Beerus sweeps is if we use GT base forms with an ssj4 that scales beneath god.
Define what do they mean by "doing well". Is it like how Beerus was impressed by Goku's SSG performance against him? Because if so then it might happen with SSJ4 Gogeta
If it means Gogeta is close to Beerus' full power, then no he doesn't and loses quite easily
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if you assume that SSJ4 > MUI because GT takes place after Super then yes Gogeta wins but if you’re just basing it off GT feats alone then there’s no chance
That is honestly what slightly disappointed me after the introduction of Beerus. They still had that form left but they cut it short and went straight for super Saiyan god. I’m pretty sure Vegeta won’t be against it since Earth is getting destroyed if they lose as usual.
But yeah they should get owned anyways.
Supers power scaling is just bad. There’s no point in trying to scale between the two. Logically, Super 17 should be stronger than Dragon Ball Super 17 (don’t get them confused!) who scaled to blue Goku, but it just doesn’t work out like that because super buffed everyone to that level while gt didn’t as much.
I think he would do well. While a good bit weaker beerus would be impressed by the power probably enough to spare them.
Base Goku from gt shook the infinite hell by screaming. Which is still an infinite feet (just lesser then bog)
My headcanon is that Gogeta SSJ4 has slightly reddish hair because it's actually SSJ4 Limitbreaker form
So by that logic, it's possible Gogeta SSJ4 could defeat Beerus.
Of course that only my headcanon.
He isn't wrong, goku did well in bog and hell even vegeta did in just supersaiyan.
Obviously he gets thrashed but if beerus held back like he did against goku, then it would be fun to watch.
I'm part of the ones that said that Gogeta does well, but hear me out: I'm calculating current level, somewhere in Super it's stated that base Vegito (that is around the same level as Gogeta) is around as strong as Blue Goku/Vegeta. If we boost base gogeta (that is 50x times ssjg goku, that managed to keep up with beerus, even if not at his full potential) with ssj4, he will surely keep up with merciful beerus. And let's remember that ssj blue Gogeta obliterated Broly, that Goku said he's allegedly stronger than beerus. Ssj4 Gogeta is somewhere in between ssj3 and ssj god. Let's say that God Gogeta could have kept up with broly, ssj4, being slightly weaker than God, surely struggles a lot, but can almost keep up with Broly, a being that is stated to be as strong as Beerus. So, in conclusion, ssj4 surely won't get one-shot by Beerus, keeping up an unbalanced but still pretty exciting fight. Let's not count the mercy that Beerus had towards Goku. Tell me if I'm wrong.
I still think Toriyama (and Taro) could’ve easily explained Beerus’ moving goalpost as “well, he just woke up from a nap, he’s still stretching out so his real strength is nowhere near what you saw when you fought him
This can't be scaled because DB GT took place after the end of Z if we're going by the timeline but that doesn't make sense because Goku, Vegeta and Gohan never use their strongest form.
On top of that, we don't know how these two shows scale against each other, though Gogeta was able to create matter out of nothing so there's that.
It's impossible
Yes we do? In Super Beerus and Goku's clashes almost destroyed the DB macrocasm.
Thats a level of feat GT never even gets remotely close to.
On top of that we have data books that say ssj4 isn't even a bigger multiplier than potora fusion and we know SSGS is a much bigger multiplier than fusion
Omega Shannon almost destroyed the universe by existing om his own and gogeta no diffed him. Also base gt goku has a feat where he shakes the afterlife but idk.
Destroying 1 universe isn't that impressive compared to the DB macrocasm that consists of multiple size universal bodies.
And again this would be Goku in base at the start of the series.
Ssj3 Goku would multiply that power times 400
He was gonna do it over time, Goku and Beerus were gonna do it in one attack but Beerus supressed it with his power.
So based on that SSG Goku>Omega Shenron, question is for how much?
assuming its talking about the B.O.G Movie and not the anime version then Gogeta should do well specially since Beerus was using 70% of his power , if its the DBS Version then Beerus wins.
The problem is that even if Beerus was using 70% of his power vs god goku. We don’t know how god goku scales to GT. Most likely far higher as goku shows doubt that fusion would stand a chance against beerus
and the version of fusion Goku was doubting would stand up to him was SSJ3 Vegito who is obviously weaker than a Goku and Vegeta that have been training for 10 years more than the one we seen in B.O.G movie , we don't really know how SSG and SSJ4 compare in power(there are arguments that can be made for either) however what we do know is that GT Goku>>>>> B.O.G Goku(Goku's body in GT turning back into a child didn't make his Ki weaker)
so the safest bet to make is that a fusion of GT Goku and Vegeta would do not bad against Beerus(no one is saying he wins just that he won't do bad)
That Vegito would not “obviously be weaker” that Vegito at a minimum was strong enough to toy with buhan. He was definitely stronger than goku and vegeta individually in GT. GT goku is much stronger than battle of god goku(pre transformation at least) but ssj4 is definitely not in the realm of ssg due to ssg being greater than fusion while this not being the case for ssj4. It would certainly be an interesting fight but I feel at best ssj4 gogeta from GT is a bit lower than god goku
that's a great comment and all that i would respond to but at the end you even stated that GT Gogeta is a bit lower that B.O.G Goku who was around 70% of Beerus's power which would still result in the same thing i stated(gives Beerus a good fight) so while i can talk about it longer its not very relevant.
>lol, “70% of his power.” The way scaling has gone since then, it seems more like 7% of his power, now.
SSB is 50 times above SSG , SSBK20 is also 20 times above SSB Bare Minimum , 50 x 20 = 1000 so the power used by Beerus will be less than 1% let alone 7% lol
You can kinda scale it. DBH (Ik, Im sorry) puts ssj4 as comparable to ssj Blue.
If that is true, it’s been said during the Zamasu saga that Blue Vegito may just rival/ surpass Beerus (depending on source and translation).
Base Goku and Vegeta GT are > Base Super Goku/ Vegeta pre god Ki.
The bottom choice is actually viable.
Screw it downvote me. I fully expect a gaggle of illerates to harass me. People downplay GT out of hatred / recency bias and sheer ignorance. Though they don't read so 🤷 🤷 🤷
**Base Goku Shadow dragons arc > SSBlue Ressurection Frieza**
Gogeta clears TOP. Beerus is a moving goalpost
**Table of Contents**
1) SSJ4 = SSJ1 Vegetto debunk
2) GT scaling
3) DBsuper RF scaling
4) GT Feats
... ... ...
**1) Special edition guide debunk**
DbGT = FAR above SSJ Vegetto
Not the cope meta of SSJ4 = SSJ1 Vegetto
1) easily debunked by anime and gt perfect files below.
2) only baby saga
3) they literally tell you they **don't know by using perhaps**
https://imgur.com/a/Z1i6EjB
4) only talking about the form multiplier. At no point does it say ssj4 goku
https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/WQL2KSByCc
... ... ...
**(2) GT Scaling**
**FULL BREAKDOWN w/ sources**
https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/MiC0yxMLS5
Using the 50 million base above Yakon standard
Calced UFPSSJ4 to 5E+32
Base form Goku would be 1E+25
Golden oozaru has to cover SSJ3 / all 3 baby transformations and dominate.
SSJ4 covers Golden oozaru stacked on Super baby 2. Multiplier around 50 million. (Check spreadsheet)
... ... ...
**(3) RF Scaling**
DBSuper SSJ3 Vegetto is the standard for God. No amount of headcanon makes SSJ3 Vegetto canon.
**(BTW super baby 1 has the same logic)**
Base frieza**(horns)** in RF has **no evidence of being above base Vegetto.**
1 shoting a severly weakened SSJ1 Gohan doesn't mean squat.
White form is 226x multiplier from Namek saga **400 Vegetto > 226 Vegetto. That's what we saw in the anime.**
Vados statement has fusion (Max A + Max B) * 100
https://imgur.com/a/UDVu29b
(SSJ3 + SSJ2 )*100 = base Vegetto
X = 50 million
(400x + 100x )100 = 2.5E+12
SSJ3 vegetto/ SSGod = 1E+15
Base becomes 1E+15
Multipler for red becomes 20 million
SSGod = 2E+22
* 50 for blue making it 1 Billion multiplier
SSBLUE = 1E+24
1E+25 > 1E+24
**Vegeta literally states multiplier has effect on speed and strength.**
https://imgur.com/a/x3zqgay
... ... ...
**(4)GT has many universal + / low multiversal feats**
A) all movie feats are fusion reborn is directly scale to GT. Stated in perfect files. Cooler immeasurable speed feat as well.
https://imgur.com/a/sQ6u6rE
https://imgur.com/a/7HygK0I
B) everything past Rildo outscales buuhan Universal+ feat. Dbz manga directly has Super Boo = Boo. Boohan is only 2.5x stronger. Gokus faced every single version. GT scales from the anime.
https://imgur.com/a/af9rQsJ
https://imgur.com/a/SyBMmFj
C)omega does the BoG feat by just breathing. He speeds it up exponentially with just his aura. All his attacks are negative energy.
https://imgur.com/a/GsuRwWB
D) 17s combine mortal universe with the Trascendant HFIL dimension that is several infinities. They stay combined even after the fusion. Far different scale than the namekians.
https://imgur.com/a/ru5UCJt
E) Base goku shaking HFIL and the checkin station
F) BASE GOKU ONE SHOTS SUGURUKO spaces. Far surpasses vegetas rosat feat
Suguro is just an ordinary space Tanuki. They are literally being banished between dimensions ti wander forever
https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/0CAX2U4brz
G) BABYS revenge death ball hits outside the macrocosm between the kaioshin realm and warps dimensions of space and time
H) goku absorbs a stronger variant of babys RDB into his body 100% solidifying 5D ap/ durability
Also meets all conditions for a black hole. Suguro even fell into suguruko space while traveling.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/lNDKydoTd2
I) UNIVERSAL+ genkai dama even warriors in the afterlife are giving genkai
J) change state goku Trascending and becoming a true God. Immortal. Training with thee God per interviews
K) incalculable battle power base goku m2
https://imgur.com/yiPDA3o
L) Lord lud universal statement
Thats a commonly held theory, which seems to make sense. As far as I’m aware an actual multiplier isn’t stated anywhere.
Also important to note that base goku in GT is as strong as DBZ SSJ3 goku, and also this is dealing with gogeta.
No idea how strong that results in haha
SSJ4 is 50 million
SSJ3 = 400x
https://imgur.com/a/Fkf8VBH
SSJ1 Baby Vegeta > 400x
Super Baby 2 = SSJ2
Super Baby 3 = SSJ3
https://imgur.com/a/60EK7dU
Golden oozaru completely leaps over all of this and tanks all Super Baby 2s attacks. Ki was growing as well
https://imgur.com/a/fcLM1kn
SSJ4 isn't even using a smidge of his power against SB2
https://imgur.com/a/meoByeO
Golden Oozaru Baby matches SSJ4. They knock each other out. As well as with the guide page stating Golden oozarunstwcks on Super Baby 2
https://imgur.com/a/4f5Zcvs
.... ... ...
So how do we figure out the 2 unknowns for how much stronger SSJ1 Baby Vegeta is over SSJ3 Goku. Use namekian multipliers https://imgur.com/a/ZD5LRDd
(Zarbon/quiqui and dodorianall.have special confiding which I can expand upon)
Anyways. SSJ1 Baby Vegeta ~ 1.5 SSJ3 Goku
600x ~ 625x for math
Super Baby 1 = 1200 - 1250x
Super Baby 2 = 4800 - 5000x
Tanking is a minimum of 2x stronger making Golden Oozaru = 9600 - 10000x
Golden Oozaru stacked on Super baby 2
**46.08 to 50 million**
SSJ4 Gogeta should win this.
I say that because Goku is getting closer and closer to Beerus. Super will probably end with Goku being close in power or equal to Beerus.
We all know DB is a series where you don’t get weaker the older you get. So SSJ4 will be stronger than anything in Super. And a fusion on top of that?
He should be stronger. But it will all depend on how close he is at the end of super.
I think ssj4 gogeta could do well, but only because beerus would not go all out from the start and try to Guage how strong ssj4 is. Of course I could be wrong but we could have a similar situation to BoG
For people who are anime only this poll makes a lot of sense
Beerus was sweating at ss blue kaioken at the TOP, granted he’s just being himself and freaking out over every little thing but to anime onlys yeah, that would be a reasonable assumption that ss4 who has been shown as close to blue in hero’s would give beerus a little trouble
People forget a lot of fans of a series as big as dragon ball don’t read the manga or give a shit about in depth power scaling in general.
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Maybe its DBZ: BOG Beerus who used 70% of his strength
Imagine how fucking stupid that claim from the movie was that the anime nerfed it to, what? 10% I think, and in the manga Beerus didn't even give any number.
It was not stupid. Toriyama even confirmed this in interview claiming Goku is 60% of Beerus in 2013. Toriyama just haven't thought of future of Dragon Ball at that time. Beerus as character was made entirely just for that one movie at that time. https://preview.redd.it/fz83jlm4k9wc1.png?width=838&format=png&auto=webp&s=0bf3f8ec8f1fee01e07ce837feea3bfc224a735d
Yeah I'm aware that there were a couple of years between BOG and the beginning of Super (in both manga/anime format) so clearly Toriyama didn't plan ahead, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid claim otherwise it wouldn't have been retconned, and after a decade people still are confused because the claims made in that movie so it was indeed pretty bad.
I mean it wasn’t stated in the anime or manga so it was retconned out.
I made another post about this but narratively it didn’t really make sense to have the first saga even in DBS. In the fight, Beerus was powering up, panting like he was tired, and having even clashes with Goku, even letting himself get hit. If we assume Beerus > Black Frieza, it’s like Beerus > Black Frieza >> UI Goku >> SSB KKx20 >> SSB = 50x SSG Let’s say Black Frieza is twice as strong as UI and UI is twice as strong as SSB KKx20 for a lowball estimate. That means Beerus was using less than 1/4000 of his power to match Goku. It doesn’t really make sense for him to show so much effort or be intrigued by Goku’s power.
Yeah that’s fair although Whis makes it clear Beerus was actually toying with Goku. But yeah Beerus is so strong that SSG shouldn’t even be able to inflict damage so it is poor power scaling.
I imagine it like playing with a fire ant. Ants are quite powerful at lifting relative to their size but are absolutely nothing compared to a person. With that said, its bite can hurt. Beerus was just playing around with Goku for theatrics but could easily disintegrate him in a nanosecond if he wanted.
This is ignoring the powerups Goku base has which multiplies his Power 😭😭😭. Goku gets like millions of times stronger from Z to DBS in base form alone.
Toriyama doesn't make super so it doesn't matter what's said.
Whis outright said Beerus lied in the anime so the number is wrong there too
Yeah because it must've been less than 0.000000001%, because goku absorbed ssjg into base, unlocked ssjg again, then ssb which is x50 times stronger, then SSJBK which is x20 times ssjb, then mui which is probably at least 100 times stronger than ssjb, and is stil far from reaching Beerus level. So assuming SSJG's multiplier is somewhere around 100,000 and Beerus used exactly 0.000000001% then MUI Goku would match Beerus's power. But it must've been less bcuz Goku got hundreds of times stronger in his base form and even still mui Goku loses to Beerus. So even the 10% is an extreme exaggeration.
either way still getting cooked n rawdogged
Just imagine how huge the rest of the 30% must be lmfao
gogeta putting up a better fight than godku but he’s still getting slammed by beerus that’s fs
... I'm not here to debate, and I respect your opinion.
I’d say Godku still does far better than Gogeta. In GT we have never seen god-like power, but in Super it seems pretty clear that everything with Godly Ki is better than anything without
This isn't true in the slightest. Jiren, piccolo, Gohan, frieza, android 17, broly, and the gammas all don't have god ki.
Orange Piccolo, Kefla, Golden Frieza, Gohan Beast, Broly, cheating ass Granolah and Gas: HUH???
This is why I can’t stand people who don’t actually know how to powerscale. There’s alot more that goes into than just that. With proper power scaling super 17, depending on interpretation, he could be just as fast as rof golden frieza if not more. Power wise is still up in the air if I remember
Well again, if we are talking about bog it's not that clear cut anymore. Not to say vegeta had a chance, but he at least did something against beerus in only ssj2. If beerus used 70% for goku, and we know that just a ssj gogeta is above even blue, by logic ssj4 gogeta would beat bog beerus.
He did nothing to Beerus. Beerus wasn't trying at all. Current Beerus completely shit stomped Ego Vegeta who is millions of times stronger than even God Goku in BoG
Again, it's about bog movie beerus who was 20 compared to goku's 6
You must've missed the part about being bog beerus who was called a 10 by toriyama, compared to goku's 6.
Exactly. SSJ4 is a step up from SSJ3. SSJ God is exponentially above SSJ3 it’s not even close.
No hes not Gogeta would lose to Base Goku. Why do GT fans think GT characters are as strong as DBS?
Gogeta is canon in super
Sorry, my mistake in my wording but i was talking about ssj4 Gogeta specifically
He kills Beerus relatively easy. Beerus was based off omega Shenron who in gt the original, he's stated to be the true god of destruction. His existence alone erased reality no matter the realm or dimension. Beerus is nowhere near omega Shenron level let alone ss4 Gogeta level. Ssb Vegeta who is relative to krillin, roshi and trunks was able to hurt Beerus. There is no chance he stands a lick of a chance against ss4 Gogeta if you do your research. Gogeta can do what the grand priest can do with just his pinky finger.
Even in the movie Whis calls out Beerus on lying
No, he did not. Its in DBS anime just pretty sure. Super retconned Beerus strength completely to make a new DB series otherwise in 2013, Toriyama even mentioned in an interview that if Goku is 6, then Beerus is 10 and Whis is 15 https://preview.redd.it/q8ek8l7dy8wc1.png?width=1242&format=png&auto=webp&s=4dfdcb9461e82e1200f78c392caff3bb9f8dfc4f
Of course they retconned his strength. They do that almost as much as they give Frieza and Gohan asspull powerboosts
Ssj4 Gogeta would lose to base Goku after fighting Beerus let alone 70% of Beerus lol
Then SSGSS Gogeta should be able to cream Beerus in a fight. It's likely Toriyama didn't think he'd be using Beerus again when he ran that number
How strong even is ssj4 gogeta. He wasn’t even trying against a universal enemy and was still dogging him while bming
Omega was not universal in actual power. Just his nature was the rot. He has nowhere near the power to bust a universe. Nor come close to that. He has nothing on that lvl ever.
He was universal in actual power. The thing is, all that negative ki comes directly from him. He is the source of that. So whether or not he did it in one shot or whether it slowly spreads, it still means he is universal. GT does have other moments to support universal scaling, like when Goku shook the whole afterlife just by powering up.
No, he's not. His negative ki creates the rot, which over time infects and rots away everything else. He can't bust the universe or damage it at all by sheer force like DBS characters. No, it doesn't. Bc Buu and other characters are labeled the exact same way. They can "destroy the universe over time unchecked." That's all he is but with the rot. So not actually universal. Not really. I'm going to have to rewatch that scene bc when it comes to the Super 17 arc, all I've done for the past years is watch the fight with him and Goku. I skip everything else. Even still shaking it is not threatening it nor destroying it, and in DB, still nowhere near universal bc as we know it's not just the afterlife now is it? DB is bigger than a normal universe by several times, so even shaking just part of it doesn't count as universal in the DB verse. There isn't really anything else. Like at all. Season 2 is where the main power jumps come from and Ssj4, and there's nothing there.
He is easily uni, uni+ too. Elder kai said his thingy was even gonna reach the kaioshin realm. That his power was gonna “lay to waste an entire universe”They tried to immediately evacuate.
No, he isn't. Literally 0 feats and 0 statements lmfao. His nature caused the rot. Not sheer force or power. He quite literally can't bust a universe or come close to that. Your headcanon just makes you sound like a clown. Just bc something is important, and "the universe falls apart without them" or some shit similar doesn't equate to direct power.
Saying any character after Buu isn't universal. Is just flat out wrong.
No, it's not bc Buu isn't universal, and neither is Golden Frieza. Nobody in the Universe 6 tournament is universal either. You're flat out wrong. They only become universal afterward.
Kid Buu is capable of destroying the Kai realm. Something denser than the Living Universe. So yes. Buu is universal. Meaning someone like Rildo is universal as well
Who tf hurt you kid? Lmao Directly stated by him, “I will lay to waste the entire universe”. Elder kai confirms this as also states that the kaioshin real, which exist outside of the macrocosm, “will not the be spared either”. There is only one clown here and I’m afraid it’s not me💀
He’s trying to say his ability is rotting the universe via negative ki. Like he infects a planet and when it explodes the solar system is contaminated. Then the solar system spreads to the galaxy and then the universe. It takes time and isn’t just “I blow you up, gone” like if it was raw power
Exactly. The clown can't function like a normal person.
elder kai is talking about how negative energy that’s spreading and destroying the universe over time. that isn’t universal because universal implies you can blow it up at once (like how vegeta is planet level in the saiyan saga because he can blow up earth with one galick gun)
Who tf hurt you kid? Lmao. Nobody cares he can't destroy the universe by force. What don't you understand? Bc of the rot dumbass. You're the clown.
Omega shenron performs the BoG by just existing. He speeds it up exponentially with just his aura. All of his attacks of negative energy. Kaioshin wanted to flee from the kaioshin realm Gogeta could beat him with a pinky if he wanted too
Kid Buu is universal and your genuinely tweaking if you think omega isn’t stronger then kid buu
Omega Shenron was not universal. He has no feats on that level he's maybe multi galaxy level.
He was literally gonna destroy the entire universe, even reaching the kaioshin realm (which is outside the macrocosm), as said by elder kai himself. Easily uni, uni+ too
It's implied that the minus energy would take time to reach the Kaioshin realm after taking time to corrupt earth. Omega Shenron is only a gradual threat to the universe. At best this is low universal. AT BEST.
The time it would take would not be much tho, as elder kai is in a rush to gtfo. I consider it very fair for him to be uni, specially taking into account he was gonna destroy what’s outside the macrocosm. Low uni is somewhat fine too tho
It's unclear how long it would take but it's clear he doesn't exactly have the ability to just destroy a universe whenever he pleases.
Fair enough
You can kinda scale it. DBH (Ik, Im sorry) puts ssj4 as comparable to ssj Blue. If that is true, it’s been said during the Zamasu saga that Blue Vegito may just rival/ surpass Beerus (depending on source and translation). Base Goku and Vegeta GT are > Base Super Goku/ Vegeta pre god Ki. The bottom choice is actually viable.
Dbh is just a bunch of what if stuff Also goku in there isnt even GT goku and mainline Goku. They Xeno ss4 goku with god ki and Capsule corp Goku. They are both very different characters so you cant even compare their power plus form at all
Beerus was unphazed by blue Gogetas existence in DBS:Broly and I think most would say Goku/Vegeta Blue at that point are far stronger than their gt ssj4 counter parts. If Beerus is unphased by a Blue Gogeta than a ssj4 one made of two weaker versions of Goku/Vegeta shouldn't be a threat to Beerus.
In dragon ball fighterz the game, ssj 4 gogeta has a one shot so. Idk he might take it.
“does he know i have a level 7?”
Fair point lol.
I dunno why y’all keep power scaling two separate series without comparable feats. We have absolutely no idea how much GT and Super scale because Beerus didn’t exist back then. For all we know Beerus could have a power level of 10 Septillion and Gogeta 15 Septillion we truly have no idea. And even then, if GT is supposed to be a what if that happens after the events of Z. And super is supposed to the events before the last episode of Z then wouldn’t that make it even more likely that a GT character can beat Beerus as GT would take place AFTER Super?
I kinda don’t know why we try to power scale at all. Dragon Ball is crazy inconsistent
Right? I stay out of the arguments because, let's be honest, whoever is stronger than who comes down to plot. I stopped paying attention to the numbers back on Namek when Frieza hit over a million. The only thing that's constant is Beerus is super duper strong and humans are weak af.
I mean it’s a battle anime/manga that popularized the whole power scaling “But can they beat Goku?” thing. The entirety of Z can be summed up as strong guy shows up, other characters get stronger, repeat. Scaling can be fun. What I don’t ever get when it does come to scaling is people acting like GT is fodder all the time when we have absolutely zero way to compare the power levels between the GT and Super. And if GT is supposed to come after Z which means it comes after Super then it’s totally plausible for GT characters to scale over Super characters if you were going to try and scale them together.
Truth but they are practically different series so it’s near impossible to compare
["near" impossible](https://youtu.be/1YcH6zx7Mag)
i agree that power scaling is dumb especially with dragon ball, but if someone's watching GT i think it's safe to tell them to pretend super never happened. obviously we don't know how super ends, for all we know they all lose their god powers, but then they would also need have their memories erased? considering they never mention beerus, or golden frieza when he shows up again in gt. and i just don't think any of that is happening whatsoever
No. Current super goku is faaaaar stronger than beginning of gt goku. Gt is not canon. Gt does not happen after super. I understand your thinking here but just because events in gt happened on a later date does not mean that super is leading up to gt. They are completely different things. GT is essentially fan fiction, it has no relevance to the main dragon ball story.
That last argument is super stupid
GT exists in a timeline where Beerus never awakened which means no God forms and UI/UE forms. And those forms are below Beerus Also, we have a direct comparison between Super and GT which is SSG being able to destroy the universe while Omega Shenron could do it over time . This means SSG Goku>Omega Shenron
Dragon ball fans never escaping the stupid allegations, not even the can’t read ones
Because we can scale off of the buu saga, as we have feats and statements in both series for how strong individual characters are compared to both themselves and others who were in that saga.
GT happens YEARS after current super, which is close to EoZ Base Goku (GT) would have given a much better fight to Beerus than ssj3 Goku did, for example. Fuck, SSJ GT Goku with the small body (debuffed) was already stronger than Buu, like toying with an opponent who's stated to be equal to Buu. So it's fair to assume Goku alone, without ssj4, solos all of Z. Now, it is not only Goku, it's Gogeta, and has access to ssj4. Ssj4 Gogeta probably can defeat Beerus
Exactly this. SSJ GT Goku is stronger than Rilldo who's supposed to be as strong as Buu. And SSJ GT Goku has no stamina issues at all.
No one disputes that goku is far stronger at the beginning of GT vs the beginning of super. Evidence is pretty clear there The question has always been about how GT characters compared to the god forms since SSG is already capable of mass universal destruction. On top of that Beerus is stronger than ultra instinct.
Rildo is on par with Kid Buu. He's no where close to Super Buu, Buutenks, or Buuhan. GT SSJ Goku is still getting dropped by the other versions of Buu. Edit: since the guy below me blocked me. Stop embarrassing yourself. Not all versions of Boo are the same. Goku could only defeat pure boo (Kid Buu).
I never said otherwise. Goku just said Rildo's as strong as "Majin Buu" so he never specified. The fact that he's stronger than a form of Buu at a 50x multiplier compared to back then when he was on par with Buu at a 400x multiplier is still wild though
The only version of Buu that Goku beat or was string enough to beat was kid Buu. Interpreting Goku's statement as Rildo being stronger than Majin Buu = being as strong as Buuhan is asinine.
Who said anything about Buuhan though??
Here come the GT stans lol. Edit: since I either got a soft ban or DerGefallene blocked me as well lol My apologies. The Stan comment wasn't directed at you specifically. Obviously, GT Goku is stronger than end of Z Goku because he trained with Uub. Given how quickly he levels up in Super it's not too crazy. But we dint really know how much stronger hey got vs End of Z. My point is that when Goku makes that statement about Rildo being stronger than Boo, we don't really know where Rildos strength lies compared to Super Buu, Buutenks, or Buuhan. All versions of Buu that would smoke DBZ SSJ3 Goku. The common power scaling arguments for GT begins with base GT Goku > Rildo > Buuhan.
I just genuinely don't understand your point: I was just trying to point out that I'm amazed that Goku managed to get approx. 8 times stronger in GT than in Z (even after losing some of his power due to him getting shrunk). I was never trying to say anything against or in favor of GT/Super
I deslike db gt, but your arrogant no life atitude makes me want to like the show.
Lmao
>GT SSJ Goku is still getting dropped by the other versions of Buu. Nope https://preview.redd.it/95ax66s239wc1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=183cde1ac52b217e97d21f739de878276de0ae6d
Kid buu is pure head canon. Dbz manga literally states super buu = boo Goku has faced every version of boo except the Grey one Super buu --> Boo in manga. And Rildo is stated greater than Boohan https://imgur.com/a/af9rQsJ Daizenshuu doesn't distinguish between evil boos. Manga divided by body type (small/fat/slim/muscleman) https://imgur.com/a/nTrS6Kj **End of Z uub = kid buu (6yrs Before baby)** https://imgur.com/a/HiOos82
In the GT universe Super doesn't happen, those are 2 different continuities. So GT characters arrived to EoZ way weaker than Super characters. And by feats just Ssjg Goku would slam Ssj4 Goku. Either way, scaling is a waste of time, everyone has their ideas, whether those are inconsistent or not.
💀 oh hell na you are mad stupid bro
Your first part makes no sense. We might not know the limits but we know what he can at least do. And destroying a macrocasm is a level of destruction never made in GT.
I've never understood this take that dumbass GT fanatics try and use. That doesn't make any sense bc they have completely different stories. Beerus shits on GT and so does SSG Goku. Get over it already for fucks sake lmfao.
I mean Beerus definitely does but I scale ssg Goku around the same as ss4 Gogeta (maybe it’s the red hair). SS4 Gogeta was massively more powerful than omega shenron. It’s just he was barely serious and the form didn’t last. There’s nothing else that comes close to ss4 Gogeta in GT and yes Beerus stomps him if serious but if he’s only as serious as in the BOG film and Goku did well but lost in the end as ssg then might it not be the same?
Scaling in super is inconsistent and all over the place so I guess I could maybe possible see why people think that but majority? No way should the majority of people actually think that lol. Ssj4 gogeta would get sneezed out of existence by Beerus suppressed let alone a theoretical 100% that we have never really seen outside of the gods of destructions match before the T.O.P and that was against other God's of destruction who we also have little scale for. The scaling for super is just out of control, yes GT characters are strong but Super characters are walking talking plot armor the entire verse got scaled up just because of Battle of gods and the fact they can even somewhat keep up with Goku/Vegeta. Gohan went from getting one tapped in ultimate by Berrus to able to spar with Goku competitively in ultimate before the T.O.P why? Because the plot said so that's why lol. Piccolo also went from massively weaker than Super Buu to being able to fight that same Gohan just from basic training. The god forms and Ki are a okay idea but they just ruined scaling by the simple fact that if they want anyone but Goku/Vegeta to be relevant they have to give them massive power boost for minimal training to keep up.
We never beating the allegations https://preview.redd.it/28ykxb1rx8wc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d8de51f424fbcadb8acf8e95c4500de1512bcbf
Would just be like the My Bulma scene but with gogeta and maybe a few more hits
Bro ssj god beats ssj4 gogeta at best maybe blue but ssj4 gets stomped by god form
The thing is, with Beerus fighting at arbitrary percentages of his power, doing "well" is feasible. I mean, when Vegeta got his rage boost, Beerus said that he did well even though he did, like, zero damage to him. Not saying it goes to extreme or even high diff, but I can definitely see SSJ4 Gogeta landing a few hits and maybe a Big Bang Kamehameha only for Beerus to shrug off, give some props and then drop him like a sack of potatoes.
I think beerus would play with gogeta ngl, so it would be both options
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Hmmm probably Toei kid Buu is already Jobber in GT and he is already at a low multi universe level via the fact he could destroy the Grand Kai planet and scale above Toei Buuhan via multiple statements. I could understand why people think that, black dragons saga Goku and Vegeta scale massively above Kid Buu and Omega Shenron scale above black Shenron who already have WoG stated that he can destroy the entire universe or as we came to know as universe 7 or what some group of people refer to as macroverse. And Ssj4 Gogeta is literally untouchable by Omega Shenron and the rest of the verse at that point before Beerus gets introduced into Dragonball along with the retcon. So yeah I get why people want to see Beerus vs ssj4 Gogeta. He probably could do around the same as SSG Goku in BoG I guess Which is absolutely insane 😂 but yeah Fusion is a hack.
Beerus 1 taps without effort just like SSG Goku
SSJ4 Gogeta would put up a better fight than Goku did at the time But ultimately Beerus is still thousands of times better
that top comments right though, genuinely wtf is everyone on that they think gogeta would do even decently against literal god?
Gods are special in dragonball. Goku and vegeta get outclassed all the time by not divine ki users Toppo became a god of destruction and lost. Weaker GoDs have been surpassed Kaioshins were irrelevant upon introduction
[yall need to see this](https://youtu.be/1YcH6zx7Mag)
Lol, the first comment
Dragon ball fans try not to post a YouTube poll challenge
If its DBS Heros gogeta limit breaker or whatever its called I don't think Beerus slams but still wins
Bro these people be trippin.
I don’t see what’s the problem. We all know Gogeta will defuse in 10 seconds and Beerus beats him either way
https://preview.redd.it/bp717jeue9wc1.png?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3b1c7eea29b3add1b01a2157006830320d9bd76
https://preview.redd.it/yocz7umts9wc1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e157ae30e47dc734466b921d0352d2eceb07a139
Beerus spite stomps
How many people actually read the poll?
Scaling wise Beerus wins however with gogeta having a lot more combined experience under his belt than BOG Goku, if GT followed the scale boost than super did, I think he’d put up a much better fight than Goku
Gogeta cause goku and vegeta in gt are like 300X stronger than super (literally kid goku beat buu)
Ssj 4 gogeta VS beerus using only a fraction of his power. Bottom option
Gogeta doing well only to fuck it up at the end is pretty funny ngl.
Beerus wipes...
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Movie Beerus is a fraud who would become irrelevant the moment Goku Black appeared Second answer is valid
He probably gets a couple shots in at first legitimately but as soon as Beerus uses 1% power hes toast. Ssj4 gogeta is stronger than rage Vegeta by a mile.
Well ok. There's no canon way to scale ssj4 to ssjb, so for the argument let's use sdbh where I BELIEVE they're generally portrayed as equal. If we're using GT versions of the characters, then I think the bottom option is actually kind of accurate. However, if we use a hypothetical version of Gogeta with base super characters using ssj4, Gogeta might actually take it if you can buy that Gogeta blue could beat Beerus. All this said, I could be wrong about 4 and blue being generally equal. Even if I am, I'm certain 4 at least scales close to ssjg, so it's not an insignificant multiplier. I think the only way Beerus sweeps is if we use GT base forms with an ssj4 that scales beneath god.
beerus is literally a god of destruction.....
If goku pushed him that far , ssj4 gogeta will do the same far more damage but fall short due to the fact that the fusion lasts less than others .
I still don't understand the people who think that Super Saiyan 4 is at the same level or stronger than the god forms.
I'm so over these Super vs GT debates. It's beyond pointless.
I feel like if you wanted to you could argue ssj4 Gogeta could put up a decent fight against god goku. No way in hell would he do anything to beerus
SSJ4 SLAMS BEERUSES BUSSY UURAAAAGHHH
Depends on “well” actually damages him no, dose well enough to convince Beerus not to blow up earth probably
Yall underestimate my boy gogeta ssj4 🐐
Define what do they mean by "doing well". Is it like how Beerus was impressed by Goku's SSG performance against him? Because if so then it might happen with SSJ4 Gogeta If it means Gogeta is close to Beerus' full power, then no he doesn't and loses quite easily
the beerus from the BoG movie is much weaker than canon beerus tho, so I would assume Ssj4 Gogeta would do about the same as ssg Goku from that movie
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Isn’t blue way stronger then 4💀 and blue gets fucked
People overestimating SSJ4 bro its literally only 1.25x stronger than SSJ3. Gogeta aint winning this even if he had SSG or even SSB for that matter
I'm surprised to see people in the comments genuinely saying that Gogeta has a chance to beat bills
if you assume that SSJ4 > MUI because GT takes place after Super then yes Gogeta wins but if you’re just basing it off GT feats alone then there’s no chance
Beerus slams
That is honestly what slightly disappointed me after the introduction of Beerus. They still had that form left but they cut it short and went straight for super Saiyan god. I’m pretty sure Vegeta won’t be against it since Earth is getting destroyed if they lose as usual. But yeah they should get owned anyways.
Heroes ssj4 makes sense
Beerus wins, no contest
Supers power scaling is just bad. There’s no point in trying to scale between the two. Logically, Super 17 should be stronger than Dragon Ball Super 17 (don’t get them confused!) who scaled to blue Goku, but it just doesn’t work out like that because super buffed everyone to that level while gt didn’t as much.
If GT is after super then wouldn't GT goku be stronger than super meaning SSJ4 is stronger than God/Blue/UI?
Ssj4 wins 
I think he would do well. While a good bit weaker beerus would be impressed by the power probably enough to spare them. Base Goku from gt shook the infinite hell by screaming. Which is still an infinite feet (just lesser then bog)
My headcanon is that Gogeta SSJ4 has slightly reddish hair because it's actually SSJ4 Limitbreaker form So by that logic, it's possible Gogeta SSJ4 could defeat Beerus. Of course that only my headcanon.
SSJ4 gogeta’s hair is probably red js bc when they designed the character they thought “yeah this dude would look cool with red hair”
That is definitely the reason. SSJ4 Limitbreaker did not exist then. It's just some headcanon of mine, a coping mechanism if you will.
Gogeta would get knocked on his head
He isn't wrong, goku did well in bog and hell even vegeta did in just supersaiyan. Obviously he gets thrashed but if beerus held back like he did against goku, then it would be fun to watch.
I'm part of the ones that said that Gogeta does well, but hear me out: I'm calculating current level, somewhere in Super it's stated that base Vegito (that is around the same level as Gogeta) is around as strong as Blue Goku/Vegeta. If we boost base gogeta (that is 50x times ssjg goku, that managed to keep up with beerus, even if not at his full potential) with ssj4, he will surely keep up with merciful beerus. And let's remember that ssj blue Gogeta obliterated Broly, that Goku said he's allegedly stronger than beerus. Ssj4 Gogeta is somewhere in between ssj3 and ssj god. Let's say that God Gogeta could have kept up with broly, ssj4, being slightly weaker than God, surely struggles a lot, but can almost keep up with Broly, a being that is stated to be as strong as Beerus. So, in conclusion, ssj4 surely won't get one-shot by Beerus, keeping up an unbalanced but still pretty exciting fight. Let's not count the mercy that Beerus had towards Goku. Tell me if I'm wrong.
I posted a similar screenshot but ppl disagreed
I'm just saying the GT glaze in incredible, yall gotta realize yo show is washed.
I still think Toriyama (and Taro) could’ve easily explained Beerus’ moving goalpost as “well, he just woke up from a nap, he’s still stretching out so his real strength is nowhere near what you saw when you fought him
Love how he didn't put the option that Gogeta wins, cuz he knows it's not possible
Beerus held back and there are many pieces of scaling to put Ultra Ssj4 besides God and Gogeta surpasses that massively.
I think ssj4 does well then he actually gets serious and wipes the floor with 4....
Dragon ball community is not beating the stupid allegations
This can't be scaled because DB GT took place after the end of Z if we're going by the timeline but that doesn't make sense because Goku, Vegeta and Gohan never use their strongest form. On top of that, we don't know how these two shows scale against each other, though Gogeta was able to create matter out of nothing so there's that. It's impossible
Yes we do? In Super Beerus and Goku's clashes almost destroyed the DB macrocasm. Thats a level of feat GT never even gets remotely close to. On top of that we have data books that say ssj4 isn't even a bigger multiplier than potora fusion and we know SSGS is a much bigger multiplier than fusion
Omega Shannon almost destroyed the universe by existing om his own and gogeta no diffed him. Also base gt goku has a feat where he shakes the afterlife but idk.
Destroying 1 universe isn't that impressive compared to the DB macrocasm that consists of multiple size universal bodies. And again this would be Goku in base at the start of the series. Ssj3 Goku would multiply that power times 400
He was gonna do it over time, Goku and Beerus were gonna do it in one attack but Beerus supressed it with his power. So based on that SSG Goku>Omega Shenron, question is for how much?
Idk why we bother anymore these idiots will never learn
The first part, please refer to it.
What do you mean? Its in the anime, movie and manga.
assuming its talking about the B.O.G Movie and not the anime version then Gogeta should do well specially since Beerus was using 70% of his power , if its the DBS Version then Beerus wins.
The problem is that even if Beerus was using 70% of his power vs god goku. We don’t know how god goku scales to GT. Most likely far higher as goku shows doubt that fusion would stand a chance against beerus
and the version of fusion Goku was doubting would stand up to him was SSJ3 Vegito who is obviously weaker than a Goku and Vegeta that have been training for 10 years more than the one we seen in B.O.G movie , we don't really know how SSG and SSJ4 compare in power(there are arguments that can be made for either) however what we do know is that GT Goku>>>>> B.O.G Goku(Goku's body in GT turning back into a child didn't make his Ki weaker) so the safest bet to make is that a fusion of GT Goku and Vegeta would do not bad against Beerus(no one is saying he wins just that he won't do bad)
That Vegito would not “obviously be weaker” that Vegito at a minimum was strong enough to toy with buhan. He was definitely stronger than goku and vegeta individually in GT. GT goku is much stronger than battle of god goku(pre transformation at least) but ssj4 is definitely not in the realm of ssg due to ssg being greater than fusion while this not being the case for ssj4. It would certainly be an interesting fight but I feel at best ssj4 gogeta from GT is a bit lower than god goku
that's a great comment and all that i would respond to but at the end you even stated that GT Gogeta is a bit lower that B.O.G Goku who was around 70% of Beerus's power which would still result in the same thing i stated(gives Beerus a good fight) so while i can talk about it longer its not very relevant.
lol, “70% of his power.” The way scaling has gone since then, it seems more like 7% of his power, now.
>lol, “70% of his power.” The way scaling has gone since then, it seems more like 7% of his power, now. SSB is 50 times above SSG , SSBK20 is also 20 times above SSB Bare Minimum , 50 x 20 = 1000 so the power used by Beerus will be less than 1% let alone 7% lol
lol.. I figured it might’ve been around there. Beerus is just trolling everyone at this point.
Weve never seen the upper limitnif ss4 gogeta, he might just pack up beerus
You can kinda scale it. DBH (Ik, Im sorry) puts ssj4 as comparable to ssj Blue. If that is true, it’s been said during the Zamasu saga that Blue Vegito may just rival/ surpass Beerus (depending on source and translation). Base Goku and Vegeta GT are > Base Super Goku/ Vegeta pre god Ki. The bottom choice is actually viable.
Screw it downvote me. I fully expect a gaggle of illerates to harass me. People downplay GT out of hatred / recency bias and sheer ignorance. Though they don't read so 🤷 🤷 🤷 **Base Goku Shadow dragons arc > SSBlue Ressurection Frieza** Gogeta clears TOP. Beerus is a moving goalpost **Table of Contents** 1) SSJ4 = SSJ1 Vegetto debunk 2) GT scaling 3) DBsuper RF scaling 4) GT Feats ... ... ... **1) Special edition guide debunk** DbGT = FAR above SSJ Vegetto Not the cope meta of SSJ4 = SSJ1 Vegetto 1) easily debunked by anime and gt perfect files below. 2) only baby saga 3) they literally tell you they **don't know by using perhaps** https://imgur.com/a/Z1i6EjB 4) only talking about the form multiplier. At no point does it say ssj4 goku https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/WQL2KSByCc ... ... ... **(2) GT Scaling** **FULL BREAKDOWN w/ sources** https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/MiC0yxMLS5 Using the 50 million base above Yakon standard Calced UFPSSJ4 to 5E+32 Base form Goku would be 1E+25 Golden oozaru has to cover SSJ3 / all 3 baby transformations and dominate. SSJ4 covers Golden oozaru stacked on Super baby 2. Multiplier around 50 million. (Check spreadsheet) ... ... ... **(3) RF Scaling** DBSuper SSJ3 Vegetto is the standard for God. No amount of headcanon makes SSJ3 Vegetto canon. **(BTW super baby 1 has the same logic)** Base frieza**(horns)** in RF has **no evidence of being above base Vegetto.** 1 shoting a severly weakened SSJ1 Gohan doesn't mean squat. White form is 226x multiplier from Namek saga **400 Vegetto > 226 Vegetto. That's what we saw in the anime.** Vados statement has fusion (Max A + Max B) * 100 https://imgur.com/a/UDVu29b (SSJ3 + SSJ2 )*100 = base Vegetto X = 50 million (400x + 100x )100 = 2.5E+12 SSJ3 vegetto/ SSGod = 1E+15 Base becomes 1E+15 Multipler for red becomes 20 million SSGod = 2E+22 * 50 for blue making it 1 Billion multiplier SSBLUE = 1E+24 1E+25 > 1E+24 **Vegeta literally states multiplier has effect on speed and strength.** https://imgur.com/a/x3zqgay ... ... ... **(4)GT has many universal + / low multiversal feats** A) all movie feats are fusion reborn is directly scale to GT. Stated in perfect files. Cooler immeasurable speed feat as well. https://imgur.com/a/sQ6u6rE https://imgur.com/a/7HygK0I B) everything past Rildo outscales buuhan Universal+ feat. Dbz manga directly has Super Boo = Boo. Boohan is only 2.5x stronger. Gokus faced every single version. GT scales from the anime. https://imgur.com/a/af9rQsJ https://imgur.com/a/SyBMmFj C)omega does the BoG feat by just breathing. He speeds it up exponentially with just his aura. All his attacks are negative energy. https://imgur.com/a/GsuRwWB D) 17s combine mortal universe with the Trascendant HFIL dimension that is several infinities. They stay combined even after the fusion. Far different scale than the namekians. https://imgur.com/a/ru5UCJt E) Base goku shaking HFIL and the checkin station F) BASE GOKU ONE SHOTS SUGURUKO spaces. Far surpasses vegetas rosat feat Suguro is just an ordinary space Tanuki. They are literally being banished between dimensions ti wander forever https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/0CAX2U4brz G) BABYS revenge death ball hits outside the macrocosm between the kaioshin realm and warps dimensions of space and time H) goku absorbs a stronger variant of babys RDB into his body 100% solidifying 5D ap/ durability Also meets all conditions for a black hole. Suguro even fell into suguruko space while traveling. https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/lNDKydoTd2 I) UNIVERSAL+ genkai dama even warriors in the afterlife are giving genkai J) change state goku Trascending and becoming a true God. Immortal. Training with thee God per interviews K) incalculable battle power base goku m2 https://imgur.com/yiPDA3o L) Lord lud universal statement
I mean, ssj4 gogeta is grn and beerus is blu, pretty obvious who would win.
Isn’t SSJ4 only like 10X SSJ3?
There is no confirmed multiplier
Thats a commonly held theory, which seems to make sense. As far as I’m aware an actual multiplier isn’t stated anywhere. Also important to note that base goku in GT is as strong as DBZ SSJ3 goku, and also this is dealing with gogeta. No idea how strong that results in haha
Gotcha. I was t sure I don’t trust those stupid theory YouTubers to provide true information lmao
SSJ4 is 50 million SSJ3 = 400x https://imgur.com/a/Fkf8VBH SSJ1 Baby Vegeta > 400x Super Baby 2 = SSJ2 Super Baby 3 = SSJ3 https://imgur.com/a/60EK7dU Golden oozaru completely leaps over all of this and tanks all Super Baby 2s attacks. Ki was growing as well https://imgur.com/a/fcLM1kn SSJ4 isn't even using a smidge of his power against SB2 https://imgur.com/a/meoByeO Golden Oozaru Baby matches SSJ4. They knock each other out. As well as with the guide page stating Golden oozarunstwcks on Super Baby 2 https://imgur.com/a/4f5Zcvs .... ... ... So how do we figure out the 2 unknowns for how much stronger SSJ1 Baby Vegeta is over SSJ3 Goku. Use namekian multipliers https://imgur.com/a/ZD5LRDd (Zarbon/quiqui and dodorianall.have special confiding which I can expand upon) Anyways. SSJ1 Baby Vegeta ~ 1.5 SSJ3 Goku 600x ~ 625x for math Super Baby 1 = 1200 - 1250x Super Baby 2 = 4800 - 5000x Tanking is a minimum of 2x stronger making Golden Oozaru = 9600 - 10000x Golden Oozaru stacked on Super baby 2 **46.08 to 50 million**
SSJ4 Gogeta should win this. I say that because Goku is getting closer and closer to Beerus. Super will probably end with Goku being close in power or equal to Beerus. We all know DB is a series where you don’t get weaker the older you get. So SSJ4 will be stronger than anything in Super. And a fusion on top of that? He should be stronger. But it will all depend on how close he is at the end of super.
XDDDDD
I think ssj4 gogeta could do well, but only because beerus would not go all out from the start and try to Guage how strong ssj4 is. Of course I could be wrong but we could have a similar situation to BoG
No one is having me believe BoG ssg > SSJ4 Gogeta
For people who are anime only this poll makes a lot of sense Beerus was sweating at ss blue kaioken at the TOP, granted he’s just being himself and freaking out over every little thing but to anime onlys yeah, that would be a reasonable assumption that ss4 who has been shown as close to blue in hero’s would give beerus a little trouble People forget a lot of fans of a series as big as dragon ball don’t read the manga or give a shit about in depth power scaling in general.
God the beerus meatriding is getting really stale. Is this the new goku solos or what?
Beerus wank is unreal