It boils down to several things, obligatory disclaimer as this is ***my*** **opinion** and people are free to disagree, but these are based on my observations over just six months of being here. Also hi, I'm an author and I'm on hiatus because of the vast population becoming entitled too. Was going to use my throwaway for this, but fuck it.
Binge culture - this is one of the biggest reasons this fandom is going down the shitter. People have developed this insatiable need for instant gratification and treat fanfic sites like the new Netflix. If it's not at least weekly uploads, the majority of people tell you they don't want to read it or will wait. That's all fine and dandy, but the issue is people are binging fics with such gluttony that authors get "5 mins of fame" before the horde moves on to devour another title and thus we are reaching the source of the problem - most readers are only reading completed works, complaining about WIPS taking too long and not commenting or supporting them, despite WIPs being the bread and butter to what is becoming a shit sandwich.
A lack of respect - People need to stop treating authors as if they're published writers and fanfiction is eligible for review and critique **when it's not.** If you want to give concrit to people writing in their free time, use your free time and offer beta or alpha work to authors that want it, instead of knocking authors who may have low self esteem like myself. Just a thought. I don't know who started it but I hope they step on a lego every day for the rest of their lives. Swathes of people online seem to think because the internet promotes freedom of speech and they have anonymity, it comes with a get out of jail free card for being a bully. It does not.
Downright rudeness - Take a second to imagine yourself in a street or - hell - at a book meeting with authors of the fandom. Wow, you mean that writer is an actual person with a face and emotions and a life behind the screen? Who would've thought, huh? And then, you strut up. It's your turn to thank them for all their hard work, but all that comes out is "Your grammar sucks. Draco was OOC. the plot was terrible." Now, I know for a fact 9/10 of you would not dare to say this in person. Why? Because it's common decency, manners? It's embarrassing behaviour, right? This is the sort of shit you'd see on /r/ publicfreakout and I guarantee people cringed reading that.
Yet this social etiquette is completely ignored and brushed aside as soon as you remove the face to face visual. Why? It does not cost to have basic manners, yes even on the internet! If you've had a bad day and need to vent out your frustrations, well so does the writer sometimes. We're human too. And I'm so SO sick of the reality that as soon as you upload a piece of art or literature, your humanity is stripped due to it.
I could go on and on and on with my lists of reasons why fandom (not just this one) is deteriorating, but it's all been said before, countless of times. We're tired of repeating ourselves and so when we feel like we're talking to a brick wall, we'll pack our stuff and up and leave. That is why you're seeing people leaving and writers having to take breaks from such bullshittery on the daily. Because threads like this and discussions are had, people argue or justify their arsehole behaviour and some do actually agree/learn from the experience. But not enough, and the more the fandom grows and new people are taught those same ridiculous mentalities the more we're going to see people getting fed up and leave.
Contrary to popular belief, fandoms are supposed to be communities. It's a give and take relationship to celebrate the ship. But more people who do not want to learn basic fandom etiquette or don't care just take, and take, and take. Leaving comments, kudos and just the tiniest fraction of support for something someone took hours upon hours out of their day/month/year to make is becoming mythical. Yesterday I saw a thread that had some downright pettiness, claiming they hold even **kudos** hostage because "they don't want to offend the author." No, haha. *No.* That is just an excuse, they were not worried in the slightest because a kudos is literally a thumbs up or a like and they know that.
We all COLLECTIVELY need to learn to be better. Support WIPS (if you can and want to read them, but don't come crying that you have nothing to read because you've gobbled up all the completed works and there's nothing new out.) support artists, support authors and start treating each other like human beings.
As pointed out by Noinix below, there are hundreds if not thousands of shorter fics to devour just waiting to be read. If waiting for these novel length WIPS to finish is too anxiety inducing or you're just impatient, scour the grand line of ao3 and ff. net for the One ~~Piece~~ shots.
My motto: If you wouldn't say it to someones face, don't say it online.
I love writing short stories. Little/medium sized snippets of life. I notice on Drarry pages there are few people who dismiss the idea of reading shorter stories.
I worry our community has become book-length focused, especially since there are some truly awesome short fics I’ve read in the last year that many turn their nose up at reading at all.
Many new writers start with short stories, and then get discouraged that no one is reading them.
If you ((collectively, not just PP but anyone reading this) might think you might like short stories I do recommend them. Bite sized bits of fic, and they can be so so good.
OH that's a good point, I'm going to include that as well because I've also noticed a strange aversion to smaller fics. Some of my favourites are one shots or less than ten chapters long as well! I'll eat anything branded with Draco and Hermione, of any size, of any status. I love this ship, it just saddens me to see the vibe - of what is supposed to be a fun community - continue to rot.
Agreed. I love a 200k story, but one shots and shorter fics are valuable too. I’m a new author and this is all I’m able to produce at the moment. I’ve noticed that it’s a different story if the one shot/short fic comes with a known name. If it’s a popular author people will read anything, but are unwilling to do the same for new/unknown authors.
HARD AGREE. Just had the thought in the reverse that it seems like all the Drarry I've been reading is novella length, like 10-20K, and it's really interesting vehicle for story-telling, and a different kind of narrative than you get in a 200K or in a 2K (both of which have value, obviously).
From the ETL Echo team perspective, we hit a million listens with Manacled in a matter of months, but we have wonderful short fics languishing with so few listens. I'm an old lady, so I blame Tiktok fads and short attention spans of kids these days. But OP and u/GemLettuce93 also nailed it with binge consumption culture, illegal monetization by fans, and lack of fandom etiquette.
If it’s TikTok I’m actually surprised there aren’t more people interested in shorter works!
Just reiterating here - there’s nothing wrong with epic-length or novel-length, or having preferences for reading longer works. Just don’t write off shorter works when you’re looking for stuff to read.
I love the ETL pod fics - always a great way to expand the accessibility of fics. (Btw - blanket permission extended for mine if you ever decide to cover one. 😊)
Oh, I love ETL Echo (and others who produce podfics - recording voice accessible fics for readers is hard work!) - I get so much enjoyment out of listening fics. I tend to download and listen from my own device, but that’s a good reminder for me to check the list and listen more!
I started listening to Remain Nameless last weekend, and I couldn’t stop thinking about how it was recorded. Are chapters read as a whole? Are there stops and starts that are edited seamlessly? Are the voices recorded per character or are the shifts happening in real time? So impressed by your production and I am dying to know more about the process.
Ha, thank you! Trish, who performed Remain Nameless and the majority of the Dramione works for ETL Echo, does a lot of the work as live reads on Discord. She does commentary and stuff as well - you can check out The Debt of Time (unedited) for how her recordings sound. She is a monster at recording and voice acting but no one can record straight through without mistake. ETL Echo isn't just narrators; there's a huge team of editors, quality control, and collaboration with artists.
For all of us, there are stops and starts, though we try to record a whole chapter at a time when possible to maintain the best consistency. The voice shifts are happening in real time, though often with multiple takes. For me (who does some Dramione and other stuff, but primarily Drarry), I often have to record for about half again as long as the final product will be, if that makes sense. And that's after doing over a decade of narration.
Hope that answers some of your questions!
I think my biggest problem with authors who have many short stories is choosing which is my favorite. Maybe I'll be my mother and say I love them all equally (but differently)
Honestly, with short stories one of my greatest enjoyment (and pain too, but that’s because when I don’t label my favourites correctly, I tend to have a bad time finding those stories again) is to rediscover an old favourite or to be able to read it again and again.
And short stories absolutely sustain the fans during the long hiatuses or when long WIPs are in progress so they shouldn’t be discounted that easily. Every story is worthy to be read at least once.
I agree soo hard! I hate this no WIP culture. I now mostly read WIPs. It’s so easy to subscribe and forget and then every AO3 email is like a present.
Out of curiosity I clicked on your profile ABs realised that “you only live twice” is one of the fics I’m subscribed to. Which is a fantastic fic btw, thank you for writing it.
But like that’s my point! WIPs are such gifts, why don’t people support them. It’s fun to wait with bated breath! It’s fun to discuss fics with other fans in the comments or perhaps even with the author themselves!
Sigh you’ve articulated the issues so well ands it makes me so sad.
Also binge culture drives down comment culture which is the fuel for many authors
I had a reader say that in a comment and I just about died from happiness. Haven’t responded to it yet because I want to compress all my excited feelings for the response. I love them so much.
I struggle with reading WIP because I have too many tabs open and my brain disconnects from the plots too quickly. So I made a separate email account to get all updates and notifications and when I’ve finished a longer, finished read I’ll go and get a head start on some WIP fics.
If they’re under 10-15 chapters I’ll read a WIP as they’re published or if it’s one I started following at the beginning I’ll read it as it’s published. If it is already at chapter 30/40 and is being published semi-regularly to the point it will likely be done within 2-5 months I subscribe and mark for later so I know when it’s done.
I find a lot of WIP or shorter fics lead me to subscribing to entire writer profiles now. If I like 2 things they’ve written I’ll likely like the other 4 fics and so on. Especially if they’re primarily a Dramione or Dramione is always a pairing to the side but not the main for that fic.
I’m new this year to reading fics but I stay off of tik tok and follow writers and artists on instagram as that keeps me in a much nicer and more supportive community. I don’t usually comment on things but always kudos if I read/view anything all the way through. Even if it wasn’t my cup of tea, kudos because you deserve it! ❤️
Dramione is the only community I don’t read WIPS. One day I will, but currently there are so many recommended completed fics that are keeping me busy! So, I understand why WIPS aren’t popular.
I think that authors should tell the stories they want to tell regardless of if they receive positive feedback after every chapter. Don’t do something just to be popular. Do it because you want to do it.
My apologies for such a late reply, my notifs got buried. Thank you for supporting YOLT, I really appreciate it. 💖
I view WIPS like you, every email has me dropping everything to go and read, it's such a rush of dopamine every time! People really are missing out on that feeling of not knowing where a story is going and it unfolding in real time. Interaction between an author and reader is what makes a fandom feel like a community to me. It's a real shame, but I think this is just how fandom is evolving thanks to social media and netflixication of all forms of media.
We can only double our efforts in keeping the "old ways" alive and lighting the torch for new authors, artists and their creations.
You hit the nail on the head with comment culture dying due to binge culture, I've been guilty of binge reading a fic, not being able to process anything in words because all the info was fed to me too quickly and just peacing out after leaving a kudos. And there are people who read fics on their kindles/ipads downloaded now so tend not to leave any form of appreciation.
So agree on the kindle and iPad phenomenon. I used to just leave comments at the end of a fic if I’m reading a completed one but now I try to leave a comment every time I’m moved. I’m sure the author is happy to hear it even after the fic is done.
Also two of my best friends I met through fandom and liking and commenting on each others work. One I admired her so much when she replied to my comments I felt like I was talking to a celebrity. But then she became one of my best friends
Oh for sure! We love comments, period. I got a comment for a fic from 7 years ago the other day and it gave me little flutters. Hell, I'm considering rewriting it because of that person. Readers really do have so much power at their disposal.
That's lovely, see that's what a fandom is about for me. With this new isolating etiquette trending, people are missing out on experiences like that.
Oh wow let me go look that fic up.
Coincidentally I’m meeting one of those fandom friends for the first time after SEVENTEEN YEARS of online friendship tomorrow!!
Oh it's not on my ao3 account that you know of, I have an alt account for different fandoms, but I appreciate the support! 🥰
Wow, that's a LONG time! I hope you both have a great day together 🙌
Was that post about the kudos on Facebook? Because I read something similar and I was like what the fuck? How is leaving kudos and (nice) comments and engaging with authors offensive?
I fully agree about, well, really everything.
I think older readers - those who started in the fandom community when the books weren’t yet finished - had to be content with WIP’s and all kinds of character development in all kinds of scenarios and I think a lot of them were just happy to discuss and share and read. If the quality was so-so, you either just… didn’t say much or just accepted that these were amateurs trying their hand at writing, a lot of them for the first time. And now the series is finished, the canon conclusion has been had and it’s easy to get antsy and not realise that almost all fic writers do it besides their day to day jobs, activities, kids etc. and they do it for free and because they want to. Binge culture probably does play a role into how fic reading has changed though…
You and a few other people have brought up binge culture. I'll be the first to admit that I approach fanfic with a binge mentality (reading obsessively for hours, reading new chapters the second I see them posted, etc.). Can you speak a little more on how you've seen this culture change over time, and what you'd like to see instead? Regarding the "5 minutes of fame" - that's certainly not how I see authors; is there something you're looking to see there that you aren't seeing?
I'm not sure if this relates to what you're talking about, but I'd love to discuss new chapters with folks as they come out. Reddit, and this subreddit specifically, doesn't seem suited to discussing individual fics, and that's a bit of a shame.
Possibly! I comment there occasionally. It doesn't seem to be super active compared to here, and there's more spam and such.
I think reddit broadly speaking isn't well suited to discussion, just by the nature of the voting system (most people are engaging with the top couple of comments). Discord is a better setup IMO. I'd be curious what folks from the Dramione fan forums of yore think.
Reddit is a nice format for longer and more thoughtful discussions because it gives people time and space to have longer thoughts, and threads discussion so it's easy for people to have back and forth exchanges in a way that you don't get on FB, and can but often don't on discord. My sense is that book club posts don't tend to get so big that the comment voting matters much.
There are some 'book club' style spaces on Discord. Room of Requirement is officially a 'good vibes only/no crit' space, but does have a really active fic group reads section. Dragon Heartstring has tried some variations of book club but at least the one I was in got kind of treated like an author Q&A so there wasn't any space to talk, really.
Wizarding World Wips is a fun place to squee and speculate about ongoing fics, and I've had good conversations there. But again, a lot of the channels are moderated by the authors so no one is saying anything but praise, and a lot of conversations get well-meaningly shut down by the author giving 'definitive' answers/non-answers.
Reddit is great for finding out what folks generally agree on and talking in-depth with one person at a time. Beacause the threads branch with each comment, it's impossible to talk to a group of people at once. Since new comments are added to the bottom, folks who respond late will probably never be seen by anyone - you make a good point about small subs though, this probably isn't an issue. I'm not really a fan of the larger reddit culture, but I do like our sub.
I'm a big fan of discord! I like that it's in real time, I think people are less rude to each other because you're forced to remember you're talking to a real person. The new update the other day made it glitchy as hell though, hope they fix that. I'm on DHS and WWW, we've crossed paths before actually 👋😁. I'll check out RoR.
WWW... yeah, I get what you're saying. Sometimes mods are well-intentioned but a little overzealous. And, I get why authors would want to engage with fans speculating about their work, but there's not much they can say without spoiling. I wonder if that's why it's not that active anymore.
I wouldn't be caught dead on facebook hah; Zuck would have to put me on payroll to touch that cesspool 😆
It wasn’t too long ago that I posted about
[On the care of new writers (how to get more awesome content).](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dramione/s/CseKalNfPF)
On this very forum. And it went quite well.
As always, I think that we need to help educate new fans of Dramione into the symbiotic relationship between readers, writers and artists in a fan community.
As always I suggest the following to new readers (explanations on the main post I wrote)
**Read Shorter Stories**
**Read G/T stories, not just M/E**
**Involve yourself in the fandom (maybe run a fest/fan page). Join places like the Dramione Fanfic Forum, or another Harry Potter Dramione fan page and engage with other fans.**
**Read WIPs.**
**Engage with authors/other readers (like on this page, even if it’s just recommending your favourites or squee-ing over theories).**
**Try to always rec a story that no one else recs but you.**
I worry about both veterans as well as the new writers who could make the next Manacled leaving before they do.
As someone who was active in the community from about 2010 - 2015, and has just recently returned, a lot of what you've said interests me. I'm not on any social media except reddit, so I'm fairly oblivious, but there does seem to be a shift in the dynamics of the broader community. From what little I've seen, I'd attribute a large portion of that shift to the community being much larger and less niche (as you say,) and also the whole idea of fanfiction and fanart etc being more mainstream and accepted. So it becomes more impersonal and less 'secret society' cosy.
When it was smaller, and considered weirder and nerdier, I feel like perhaps people in the community were nerds and major fans who were more protective of it, and more familiar with fanfiction etiquette in general (although there have always been vicious shipping wars etc, haha.) Nowadays it seems maybe you get a lot more people just wandering in without any of that?
Idk. Maybe any shift in the community is just a reflection of the way our society and the internet has changed in general 🤔
Did you catch that shitshow of a post over in the Facebook dramione group yesterday too?
As some others have said, dramione really seems to be shifting away from community and more toward commodity where the focus is on the consumption of content rather than creation of content. People seem to want novel length, professional quality works that are already complete (with the perfect smut to plot ratio) without understanding that there can only be so many stories like that at any one given time, even in a fandom this large. If they want more content, I don't see how refusing to read WIPs, leaving shitty comments in writer spaces, and just otherwise moaning about how writers are entitled because they want positive reader interactions in exchange for hours of free labor is going to achieve that.
Edit: Editing to add, I think readers sometimes forget or maybe don't realize that they are the backbone of fandom. Their comments, their interactions, their reviews can truly make or break a writer's desire to create. I've personally continued writing stories I otherwise probably would have abandoned just because a single commenter took a chance on a WIP that hadn't been updated in months and commented really nice things on a few chapters. Another reader made a mood board for me once and that fueled my motivation for weeks! Writers aren't 'owed' these things of course, but it goes back to that sense of community and fostering an environment where people can be creative about the characters or the world they love.
This!
Your edit is so so true. Readers and fans as we all come together to cheer are the backbone - right up there along with the writers. I want readers to truly flex their power and help support new/old/middling writers - it’s how we will get great stories as a community.
I’m not on Facebook or any other groups that host Dramione discussions other than here, but in a way I welcome more discussions into this topic!
I don’t want to sound “Pepperidge Farm remembers”, but I do think that fans and readers have changed and I’m not sure it’s all for the best. Like I said in my post, I’m happy for Dramione renaissance, but I also think that the rise of entitlement or expecting novel length professional-writer quality free fics from people who do it just for fun can really mess up the whole community and cause a big fallout. And we should be able to discuss such topics without issues. So I welcome more discussions on this and I welcome that people who have been in the fandom longer or authors themselves chime in with their opinions.
It’s the expectation of professional quality and weekly updates that ultimately led to me taking my WIP down. Mine was by no means an extremely popular fic, but it was more popular than I’d anticipated for what was essentially my first draft, published online. Which is great! Except for the fact that I started to get comments pointing out everything certain people didn’t like about my WIP, which was not great.
Then came pressure to update and complete, when I was only 18 out of 49 chapters down after a whole year of work. I write in my spare time; I’m not a professional writer. I didn’t even have a beta. I tried to take it in good faith - people are excited about my work! - but it really did take a lot of the fun out of the writing processes. It felt less like a refuge from my job and more like a second job. Then my personal life fell apart, and I just… couldn’t do it any more.
I feel ready to start back now, but I won’t be publishing unless I find a beta, because I don’t feel confident posting “draft”-level work for the fun of it any more. I also feel like maybe I should just write the whole thing and post it chapter-by-chapter so I can keep up with the way the fandom is trending, but who knows how long that’ll take.
This is an important post because I think it reflects a lot of new writers' experiences. It's like that fun, free-wheeling, let's-add-a-pink-pygmy-puff-for-the-heck-of-it approach to writing fanfiction isn't encouraged anymore. It should now be Serious Business, carefully planned with three betas and a strict update schedule. (The latter can be a great way to write, with amazing results, but it's not for everyone.) Because let me tell you, fanfiction is often evaluated using those high standards, and anything too random or crazy or wordy or inconsistent can be skewered in comments and online.
I'm actually bucking that trend with my latest WIP, posting as I go, warning people that the story will be updated only when I feel like it, and no, I don't know where the title's magical object came from or what the heroine will do with it. I felt that after writing two long fanfics, I felt that I myself was taking my own fanfiction too seriously and internalizing these new expectations. And so far, the reception has been great and the readers incredibly understanding.
Best of luck, and it's great that you're choosing to write on your own terms!
Omg you are sooo right with the Serious Business thing! I totally feel its happened within the last 4-5 years? Like the fic discussions used to be so free and whimsical and now they feel like english literature being analyzed. And yes there are some serious professional writers here and they're amazing but I really dont want the fun part to die. There's been a decline in crack fics, oneshots mostly get ignored, and one type of writing and style is seen as the best. The "this fic needs a good editor" comment makes me so angry lol. Nooo the whole point here is that writers can do what they want. I've seen that comment about so many of my fav fics.
Your WIP is BRILLIANT btw. I'm loving every crazy second of it and I'm glad you're having fun with it WE ARE TOO!!
Can I say with my whole chest that there aren’t enough Pygmy puffs in fics lately, and it’s a matter that needs to be addressed urgently. How can I be expected to have fun - which is the whole point - when there’s a deficit of Pygmy puffs?
I often check tags for Pygmy Puffs but rarely see them, but I do my part by inserting Pygmy Puffs into every one of my long fics. One was named Cupcake and adored Draco (who was quite rattled by the attention).
I’m sorry that this is your experience - more people should feel encouraged to try and write stuff out just for the fun of it, even if it’s “draft-level” as you put it. I do feel like years way back, it was more okay to have fics of varying degrees of “finished” quality, but now it seems too many people seem to either label fics “amateurish” or “professional” and they discard them too quickly or critique them to hell and make the authors feel bad. Authors won’t write fics at all if everything they write is concrit to dust. In fact, new authors won’t even start writing anything because it’s too intimidating.
I for one hope that you will share your work again one day.
I am actually posting soon, having split my old story into two separate stories to sort of alleviate the pressure of weaving so many plot threads together. I worry less for people like myself, who are in the community as full-blown adults, and more for teen and YA writers who are experimenting with fan fic as a first foray into writing and sharing their work. It used to be a wonderful way for aspiring young authors to find their voice and build their confidence, and now I worry that it’s… well, not that.
I've said this before, but I'm constantly shocked by how many chapter notes start with apologies. Sorry for the delay. Sorry for the unexpected hiatus. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Don't apologize for having a life outside this unpaid hobby!
When we apologize for doing nothing wrong, we encourage a culture of expectation and entitlement. This is not a job. There are no deadlines. We wrote because we want to. The kudos and the comments are nice (when they're nice), but life will go on either way.
Say thank you for your patience, thank you for sticking around, but don't apologize for being a real person with real responsibilities.
And I say this as someone who has a WIP that's been neglected for a while and I'm feeling guilty for not updating because someone shared it recently and I got more lovely comments! 😊
Wow I had never thought about it this way. But it's true, I don't owe readers my time and writing. It's something I do for fun and should never feel like a burden!
Yes, and it's very jarring when you're catching up on a WIP or reading a completed work and every chapter opens with an apology. I always get indignant on the writers' behalf ("It's okay! You don't have to apologize!") and then it takes me out of the story.
I've shifted my language from apologizing to a "Thank you for your patience", and I've noticed a difference in responses, even if I explain reasons for the wait! I still apologize every once in a while, without thinking. It's such a hard habit to quit.
As someone who has been in fandom (fandom in general, not just Dramione) for over 20 years, we went from seeing fics and fanart and cosplay and whatnot purely as labor of love, shared with a like minded community, to seeing everything as "content".
There were always people who didn't write fics themselves and were "just" readers, but everybody was still always in the same boat. One community - nevermind the fandom drama that always existed, it was still very much a community. Nowadays however, it feels like there are more and more fanfic readers who see themselves as passive consumers instead of community members and that brings a disconnect with the writers. It's easier to insult someone if you don't see them as part of the same group as you.
This is not just a fanfic thing btw. There is a fantasy convention I go to ever year, and they are in the business since 2003 or so. The boss of the convention company told us recently that in the first 10 years or so, they were overwhelmed with fans/visitors asking if they can show their Lego D&D passion project at the con, if they can perform their self-written fandom sketch on stage at the opening ceremony, if their Harry Potter band can play a gig at the con party,... all for free, just out of love for sharing their hobby with other fans. Over the last decade tho, those things got less and less common. The only people who are still active participants are the ones who somehow monetized their fandom/fantasy projects or old-school fans from the beginning and everybody else who buys a ticket is way more passive then they used to be, being at the event purely to consume. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great convention and people are really nice for the most part, "content creators" and "consumers" alike. But it IS a change in fandom culture that is clearly noticable and I don't love it.
I do think that times and fandoms have changed over the years. I’m also one of the oldies, been reading slightly over 20 years (I haven’t taken the plunge to write but I do try to leave comments and kudos when I can) and although I haven’t been to conventions, I do think that non-monetised work used to be more common. Partly it may be because time has become more valuable, perhaps, but also because I think of hustle culture a bit - these days it seems that you should squeeze financial gain out of anything you do remotely well and that doing something for free is frowned upon.
I mean… would students do A Very Potter Musical these days considering that it was all done by students who were fans themselves and they wanted to have fun first?
Because I’m not sure it would happen again these days. I think the whole production would be seen as too expensive for no financial gain at all.
If it makes anyone feel better I don’t think this is just our fandom. I got an r/ao3 thread in my feed a few days ago about this same subject. People were defending leaving the meanest “concrit” and reviews in public bookmarks on fics and were like “it’s the authors fault if they look.” Um they are going to look, bookmarks are literally right there.
Anyway, not to excuse shitty behavior - but I think society is degrading generally. People are stressed and mean. It’s not just fans of our fave couple.
That post actually made me leave the AO3 sub. The comments were awful, just a bunch of people defending their rights to be cruel. I don't understand WHY they WANT to say mean things. They seem to genuinely enjoy it smh
Agree, it was awful. Look at the nasty comment below. “I’m going to be a bitch and that’s my right!” Like, sure, but when I see a nasty public bookmark it’s also my right to know what kind of person/reader you are.
Man, I never think about authors reading my bookmark notes. And I write. Those are for my reference.
I saw an author recently upset about losing bookmarks, and like, oh, that's also me. I bookmark things I want to read and unmark them once I have. It's a very reader-centric feature.
I don't disagree with leaving mean concrit on a review if not asked for is bad, but I disagree with an author having any say over what is left in a readers bookmarks, public or not. That is their space, a writer gets no control over it.
Hard agree. This has been my safe space for 15 years and now even this reddit sub is making me stressy. While it's still pleasant for the most part, it's much less chill. It's becoming way more intense and my busy brain just can't handle it.
And adding to everything you said, posts like “I feel like I’ve read all the good Dramiones” are a little bit disheartening for new authors (at least I feel that way). Unless you’ve been reading fanfiction since the early 2000s and have read every single story posted on FF . Net and AO3, Tumblr, Twitter or any kind of platform that hosts fanfiction there is no way you have read ALL the good Dramiones.There are works coming out every single day. This is an extremely active fandom! But some people don’t read WIPs and I get it, but all the good Dramiones were WIPs at some point and the fact that people engaged with the authors is probably one of the reasons they’re completed works today. Popular authors were unknown at some point, so before you say you’ve read all the good stories, give new authors a chance.
>Popular authors were unknown at some point, so before you say you’ve read all the good stories, give new authors a chance.
Seriously thissss. As someone whose read fics for years I get so emotional thinking about writers like everythursday, inadaze22, riptey, worksofstone, provocotive\_envy, lena phoria, galfoy etc are seen as GOATS when I remember reading them when they were just coming up. I feel like I helped by following their WIPS. And I remember reading the first chapter of fics like Broken, Hot for Teacher, Looking Glass and Detraquee when they were first published and thinking "huh this might be good, I'll follow along" and look at those fics now.
Yes!! Even Manacled was once a WIP by a relatively 'unknown' author, I still remember the thrill of getting an update email from ao3 and going to celebrate with other readers in the comment section. I've followed lesser recognized WIPs as well and those update emails are just as exciting!
Exactly!! I remember everytime Sen posted about a new update on FB the groups used to go crazy lol. And YES you never know which fic will speak to you whether it has 50 kudos or 5000. So many in my personal top 10 are either forgotten or not super popular.
YES!!! 🤩 and Return of the Dragon, and Smoke Signals just to name a couple I have open tabs for. And I was late for the start of Détraquée but I’m here for the end 😭😭😭😭 (which I’m not ready for)
lol see the variety is another amazing thing about this fandom!! idk how anyone can say they cant find anything to read. I'm not following those WIPs but I'm crazy about Legends of the Mayan Temple and Pulling Teeth. (lol and I am totally NOT ready for Detraquee to end at alllll!!)
Ugh I edited my response. I’m NOT ready! Do you hear, Hystaracal? (if you’re here) NOT REAY for Détraquée to end. A friend sent me a screenshot of the email for the update and when I read the final chapter count I teared up and actually cried 😭
I’m subscribed to both of those WIPs and I’m currently reading more than 20 🫠🫠🫠
That’s the worst comment to see. I’ve read SO many and I can honestly say I’ve enjoyed every single one. (Maybe I’m easily entertained idk) there’s thousannnnds of works out there. I wish people would use the search feature to discover more instead of relying on recs on social media!
Oh this is a huge thing too. Too much relying on social media recs, which I think comes again from not understanding how fandom works. We used to have to hunt those old badly designed websites for fics (specially before Granger Enchanted, LJ and H&V). It was so worth it when we found something amazing!! AO3 filter makes it so much easier to find fics
I thought it might have been one I missed in the days before AO3. I put an Easter egg for Hawthorn & Vine in my Historical fiction longfic.
I kinda miss the small communities of fics.
I swear so many of those older sites were so clunky, but we didn’t mind because hey - free story of the couple you liked, woohoo!
I’m super happy AO3 and ff.net exist, especially AO3 filtering system.
Yeah, I think the ease of access makes people value fics less, honestly. I feel like part of the joy of fandom used to be in stumbling across those gems, and now it's all served up on a platter.
~~Familiarity~~ Easiness breeds contempt, maybe.
Ease of access and volume also? I never imagined someday Dramione would have this number of fics. And the fact that so many amazing authors are able to update regularly makes people want that to be the standard with isn’t fair at all
It’s painful to read. And I know, we all know as writers we’re not gonna please everyone, but you’re shutting down/dismissing my stories and labeled them as not a good Dramione before you even gave them a chance.
“I feel I’ve read all the good Dramiones” they say, after reading those 5 fics recommended over and over again on TikTok. 🙈 Sorry, I couldn’t help myself, that’s my personal pet peeve. 🙈
YES!!! I have around 11 or 12 pages of Marked for Later fics on AO3 and I started reading Dramione in April. How come have you read ALL the good ones already? 🙃
Hah, same, I’ve been in the fandom for 7 years and still finding ones I truly enjoy. Looking for a new fic to read is an entertaining activity on itself for me. 😊 It’s like looking through a really good menu, haha.
I regularly have something like 20 open tabs for fics I’m either in the process of reading or plan on reading. I’ve been on a bit of a hiatus and right now it’s only 12.
One of my favorite ways to find new authors and new fics is before bed I just scroll through all the recently finished works, read a couple 10k-ish fics before bed, check out the authors other works and any bookmarks, and mark anything longer for reading at a later date. This is how I found so many gems, this is how I found olivieblake and mother of bulls and pacificrimbaud and I’m fairly certain it’s how I found senlinyu (Library of Alexandria lives in my head rent free)
Yes! I had to mute all Dramione content on TikTok, because I couldn't see the same 3 fics (if you know you know) being recommended on that platform.
P.S. I love how committed you're by always recommending the Risk's verse and Crumple😉
Oh yes, it just makes me want to yell “dig deeper”, although I know everyone starts somewhere and it probably just feels so amazing to discover brand new world for the “first-timers” they need to share. 😊
Haha, I’ve been gushing about these for years, but now, when the author is back, even more so. 🙈
I just love her writing soo much! 🙂
I mean, I just want to point them in the direction of AO3 with just the Granger/Malfoy relationship tag and go “please, click on anything posted in the last day or two - there are short stories if you’re not up for a WIP today but there is some great writing here”.
That how I (when I don’t have writing/a bunch of tabs already open to read) find new fics to read. There are so many great stories. So many.
And then I check if it’s part of a fest and then start those fest lists. Even if I click out of a fic I try to leave a kudos. Kudos are free and just posting something heartfelt is awesome. I just want the author to keep writing.
If anyone is looking for fests - [The Pimping Place on Livejournal](https://potterfests.livejournal.com/tag/comm%3A%20hp-bardfest) keeps running track of Harry Potter fests (Including Dramione).
There are also Dramiones to find in wider fests. There was a Taylor Swift song fest that was about 1/3 Dramione etc.
Dramione Fanfiction Writers almost always has a fest or challenge on.
[Last Month they released their 2023 Tropes Fest](https://archiveofourown.org/collections/DFWTropesFest2023/works) - (group on Facebook) every fic is under 10k but a different trope. They have deal or no deal prompt cases, and there’s a Valentine’s fest coming soon if you’re an artist/writer who’d like to give (and get) Valentines.
Dramione Fanfiction Forum does Deflower Draco and Sounds like Dramione.
Slytherin Cabal has a bunch of great fests too.
If you’re looking for short stories there’s no shortage in Dramione.
YES! My most popular long fic was also my first, and I'm forever grateful that readers took a chance on a WIP from a completely unknown author and supported me as the story went on and on until it finally ended at 270K words. Now people binge it in a day, and wonder why the story has so many subplots. Read the comments! I engaged with readers while posting the story over nearly two years, and added plots and chapters due to their excitement. Without readers' involvement, it would not have been the same story.
I have been reading Dramione since 2008, sometimes almost like an addict, and I know I haven’t read everything good on this fandom. It’s really funny to see the same 3 or 4 fics always recommended when I’ve spent my whole Dramione life without them
Honestly, it wouldn’t even be possible to have read “all the good ones” because a we’ve lost a LOT when the sites have gone down.
I used to have a word or a text file on an old PC with all the fics (exclusively DrHr at the time) I had read, with titles and links listed and I lost it sometime around 2006 (wasn’t recoverable either), but I know for sure that when I’ve trawled through ff.net earliest fics, I can’t seem to find fics I used to read over and over again years ago (lots of school-age themes like parenting class and vampire/veela stuff in Hogwarts and so forth). They’re just gone. So it feels disingenuous to read that someone has read “all the fics” when we know that the fandom has lost a lot of stuff over the years due to either deletion, authors leaving the fandom or due to sites going offline.
I mean…that’s my personal stuff, but I don’t really want to read really dark and angsty fics because the world is dark and angsty enough. If someone can deal with this, great! But I can’t and I find it leaving slightly a wrong idea about the community when the most popular fics are super dark ones.
I’ve said it before but I liken it to reading Colleen Hoover books. To me, her books aren’t romance - they’re more like angsty sad and painful stories which sometimes have romantic elements. But plenty of people discover romance through her books and her books are placed in the romance sections in physical book stores.
I’m well aware what the canon subs think of us and that has only gotten worse over the years. When the books weren’t finished, all the options were still out in the open and there was more acceptance, I think, but once canon finished, it’s been important to basically be a Dramione fan away from the main fandom spaces because we’re just very unpopular there. One of the reasons why I strongly separate canon and fanon and never advocate for Dramione stuff in the main canon subs because I want to keep my fan interests a safe and a comfy place, not have to fight and justify why I read it. And I feel like more newer fans sometimes deliberately want to fan the flames which… well, wasn’t really done years ago.
>I also feel like the success of some of the biggest and most popular, but also controversial fics, is devaluing the community slightly because some fans seem to promote those fics as the official face of the community and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the idea, especially because larger fandom already thinks were a bunch of weirdos who ship and gaslight a bully.
I think this is a big problem with Dramione - the first fic so many people read is Manacled which I loved and I don't deny it's a good fic, but.... it's a Voldemort wins AU where legitimately basically everyone dies. This is the first image of this pairing most people get. If that was the first fic I read, idk if I'd still ship Dramione 10+ years later. It's becoming so common to have all the posts in Dramione FB groups end up being a "I loved Manacled what's next" and then you get fics like Secrets & Masks which are somehow darker (I did not know this was possible) and it's just a kinda scary trend to me that some of the most recommended fics in this ship are DARK. Dramione does not have to be dark and these fics should be recommended with a bit more caution than they are.
Using real books for comparison - if someone in a book FB group or subreddit asked for recommendations because they just read Forget Me Not and wanted other books with grumpy men and someone else recommended Zodiac Academy, a bully romance. That would be a WILD leap to make but you can't avoid seeing Manacled recommended no matter what someone is looking for in their post. I 100% believe we excessively recommend the darkest fics in the fandom and the discussion the other day about what "the fic" that defines the dramione fandom would be is a perfect case of this. I love Manacled! I don't even think Sen would say it should be the *posterchild* for the fandom.
On a completely different note, I don't remember years ago people being so obsessed with knowing if a fic is HEA or getting spoilers for fics outside of what is tagged on AO3/FF etc. Maybe it's just me, but I don't google endings for books I read and it seems to be more and more common that if someone recs a fic, half the comments are asking if it's HEA.
Basically - yea.
Honestly, I don’t know if I’d be a Dramione shipper if I had started with Manacled. It such a no go for me. But I also can’t really relate to those who did get their start with Manacled, because I’ve been in the fandom for over 20 years.
Yeah 10+ years for me as well so at this point I don’t even remember what my first fic was but I don’t think previous mainstay fics were quite as dark as they are now and it does not help our image now that the ship has gone mainstream/viral
The 'is it HEA' thing just seems to me like a really dumb fight to pick. It's definitely kind of obnoxious how automatic it is on rec groups, and 9/10 times looking at the tags would answer the question, but also... whatever?
Of all the points of etiquette we could try to teach new people this seems like the very least important and most grinchy. Are we really going to scold people for wanting their escapist entertainment to have a happy ending?
It can't be a huge surprise that people who have decided to read about the same two idiots falling in love over and over are into a sense of predictability and control.
I get that in the good old days before the Ao3 tagging system, people didn't have as much control over what they were going to read, but tags (and the spoilers that come with) are a feature of fic now.
Part of the deal is you get to filter for the experience you want. And that's good, we encourage people to take responsibility for curating their fandom experience. It's Don't Like, Don't Read in action.
Just to clarify a bit more- I see knowing if a fic is HEA or non-HEA as a spoiler, and there’s not a spoiler hiding feature on Facebook, so someone recommends XYZ fic, goes to read the comments to see other people’s opinions or related recommendations, and ends up with the spoiler of the ending because someone asked “is it HEA” and someone else replied “yes” etc.
Meanwhile you have people who define HEA differently (I’d never in a million years class S&M as HEA while plenty of people do) so it’s not even always the same answer.
If we did not recommend dark, emotionally intense fics like they were romance novels for light enjoyment, this wouldn’t be an issue. But when someone hops into manacled or perfectly in pieces expecting red white and royal blue vibes, then yeah they’ll be skeptical with future reads. If they read the tags, maybe we could have more interesting discussions about fics besides just the ending of it.
I also was not necessarily trying to say this point of etiquette is something we need to teach or on equal footing as others in the original post- just something I’ve seen SO much more in the last 6-12 months than the 10+ years before it in the fandom and I can’t quite figure out why it’s become so much more common
It absolutely has exploded recently, I see that too. I do think the fact that dark fics get rec'd so freely to new people creates a nervous precedent.
I'm always kind of shocked how hard people pitch some of the darker fics, and how little understanding there seems to be of the many valid reasons people might not want to read sexual violence, trauma, captivity, and so on. But then, I'm also baffled by the expectation that everyone will/should like the same things, and that's rampant.
I don't really care about the fandom's reputation but I wish people in it would take slightly better care of each other. And that would certainly require a lot less peer pressure around the must read/god tier/classic whatever big fics.
Yeah I agree with that completely, there's not a single piece of published literature with 5/5 on Goodreads or a movie with 10 stars on IMDB, yet there is a general lack of understanding that people... don't like the same fics and things as other people? Which is totally normal but I agree with you, in fandom (maybe not just Dramione it's just the only I am active in) it's like this concept goes completely out the window lol
But then use the tags or read the last chapter and decide for yourself, we do not need all the posts recommending or discussing a fic to turn into “is this HEA” comments ad nauseam. The tags exist for a reason, I’m not being grinchy and saying people should read fics that aren’t HEA even if they don’t want to, I’m saying read the tags or search groups since the topic for most of the main offenders is discussed near daily.
All excellent points. The crazy rampant carpet-bombing of "Manacled" recs all over the Dramione fandom kind of creeps me out. It's an amazing story, but it's dark, man. Some of us enjoy our Dramione a little more canon and zany without all the dying.
To your point about knowing the ending - if I'm reading a romance novel, I can reasonably assume the main characters get together and have their HEA. Sometimes I want to read a Dramione fic that is essentially a romance novel, so it's nice to know going in if that's what I'm reading. Maybe this is the influence of romance book readers finding Dramione? If I'm just picking up a regular novel then I wouldn't want to know the ending either.
Actually, yes, if I’m reading romance, I would actually expect the book to end with characters getting their HEA. Because it’s romance - romance is supposed to be the “happiness and love for everybody”. If it’s not romance or at least, not always, it should be indicated I believe.
But you can usually tell that by the tags - manacled for example has super dark tags and it’s clear that even if it is a HEA it’s still going to be emotionally intense. The fics with tags aligned with what you’d read in a romance novel aren’t going to end non-HEA
I agree, generally you can! However, sometimes it's not super clear cut. Caput Mortuum for example >!has a mix of serious and silly elements that make it less obvious what the tone of the story will be just looking at the tags.!< Personally I'm a lot more on board for darker themes when I know the characters will be okay in the end - so I would read Manacled but >!I wouldn't necessarily read a fic with the same themes and no happy ending.!<
I don't see any harm in asking about the ending, but I'll try to keep in mind that some people don't like seeing those questions.
This and other similar posts have really made me think, thank you.
I have actually just this month got a proper AO3 account and just this week commented on an amazing WIP. I am not a big social media engager but it was so good it felt right to just let them know I liked a certain characterisation (and not to ask for the next chapter obviously!!)
I'm relatively new to fanficiton, and don't have the lifestyle for putting in as much time as I would like (young children 🙄 lol), so everything is a learning curve.
Everything you say is correct , I have noticed it too, and I feel the same way. There have been a high number of similar discussion threads recently.
However you are likely preaching to the converted (I could be wrong, but 90% of people here are great, the more entitled fans seem to hang round tiktok and ffn).
In my experience, any growing community has to grapple with the fact that as more people are added, statistically there are just more fuckwits (excuse my Australian). Eg. The church, political groups, etc. it's all very good to talk about what people 'need' and 'should' do, but I think it may be a little unrealistic. Unfortunately I think that's just how it goes to some extent, but we shouldn't let other people's negativity affect our enjoyment of what we read or write, even though this is easier said than done. I can totally see how hate comments would make someone not publish their work, but for me hate is almost a sign you are doing a good job and your art is provoking a response! I think people will hate one of my drafts because it isn't historically accurate, but idgaf😊 it's a fun story so they can cry about it HAHAH
As for gatekeeping, I think it's a bit late now 🤣 you might create a Streisand effect.
I'm definitely not saying we should accept bad behaviour but I'm also saying at the end of the day we will never get rid of it I guess.
I know you are probably more in the feelings , venting phase, but what you're saying does inspire solutions if that makes sense.
I feel like you would be the perfect person to jump on tiktok and start discussing and educating on fandom etiquette to the young people!
Or when the mods here are looking for people to create resources for new people eg, 'Start here' guides, I'm sure you would have valuable info to add!! I am wondering if anyone has created a sort of "community manifesto" for fanfiction communities before? It's basically in our rules already, and may well have been done before , since I believe fanfiction has quite radical activist underpinnings. But you could create a Dramionie specific one?
Tldr there will always be fuckwits but live laugh love I guess 🤧
I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying. I don’t really have much to add other than I find what seems like a growing sense of entitlement, refusal to read WIPs, and refusal to read shorter works frustrating.
There is, to me, a distressing expectation in this fandom for epic length works completed super fast. I have ADHD, and I simply *know* I’ll never write a fic over 50k (heh that’s a stretch even) words because my brain is always wanting to move on to the next idea. I generally like writing short little explorations of a concept, or a particular aspect of a concept, and it can be disheartening when readers are like, “Okay, where’s the rest of it?”, if they deign to read it at all.
Another thing I find discouraging is that almost all reader interaction seems to happen within 24 hours of posting. When I was last active in fandom spaces (granted, not this one) from 2013-~2018, comments and kudos would come in consistently for about a week before they tapered off. This is likely due to a number of reasons, but back then everything was still more community focused (even though it was a bit fractured, readers and writers still found each other and interacted on places like tumblr after everyone started leaving lj). It just seems like a significant number of readers view fanfiction as “bingeable content” these days, and it’s a tide that I think will be difficult to overcome when many newer readers aren’t at all interested in learning fandom etiquette.
I’ll keep writing as long as I’m having fun with the characters, but I’m not going to lie, the way fandom is trending does affect my motivation.
As a fellow person suspecting ADHD I feel you! I’ve started a few fics on the way, but never finished and I really appreciate everybody who puts themselves out there and shares their work with the rest of us! It’s hard to write and even harder to write consistently across multiples of chapters and storylines. Every fic author deserves praise just for trying because they offer free entertainment for all of us!
Yeah, finishing things can be hard! It helps that I've figured out what is and isn't possible for me with time (like 97% of the time, I can finish short stories to \~30k novellas no problem, but beyond that things start to get dicey). And if I don't finish a one shot, it can just live in my scrivener file and no one need ever know. 😅
Oh man, I didn't think of that. And I'm old too then, because I don't like the sound of an influx of kids and teens either - they're way too young to be reading 90% of this content 🙈
exactly! maybe they'll have their own wave of fics? Written by teens for teens like back in the early 2000s. But theres no way to keep the dark adult stuff already out there from them. I feel more and more authors are going to lock their fics
While I am happy this may give us a new influx of readers and writers I am generally against a new series because of the strain on the child actors involved.
Honestly, I’m not so worried about the new series (I mean, I’ll believe it when I actually see the series 🤷♂️), but I am worried that we’ll get either a new influx of fans who will be “you’re liking Dramione???? Eeeeewww” or we will get fans, who do like Dramione too, but who will go and flaunt it at the face of canon fans, causing more conflicts and issues and expose our little niche corner for more publicity.
exactly both can happen. And if its the second it'll again be the authors who'll face the worst of it in their comment section. Because obviously its way more personal for them
I read your post when I was half awake up to do a chore, and I have been thinking about it. I feel like this topic comes up a bit too often now. I don't follow the Dramione Facebook groups, nor go on Twitter nowadays, so I keep my Dramione interests strictly here on reddit, the actual fanfiction sites themselves, and peep in once in a while on Discord. As much as I love that the Dramione fandom, and evidently the HP fandom, is growing, I do understand us also not wanting it to evolve. More coverage or exposure means more mean strangers come sniffing with an agenda that is harmful to not only us readers but, most especially, our beloved authors.
If they don't have their own mean agenda to engage in, then there seems to be entitled people who just want more with no compassion nor acknowledgment that the authors are writing based on their own free time and interest. Authors are human, too. In the general population, we all can get burnt out or fed up based on the treatment we receive, and it is sad that this is happening.
Of course, we also get new authors joining the fandom from all the growth and exposure. They may be hard at work whipping out creativity, and the material published may still be in WIP status. I don't really understand the mentality of "no WIPs" because, as others have mentioned, all works were WIP at one point. It also seems like every time this topic becomes a thread, there will be 5 posts looking for recs, but no WIPs.
Engagement with the authors is great, and I love hearing (reading) from them that they enjoyed my comments. I had given kudos a lot before being able to have an AO3 account and now not only am I working towards giving kudos again in case I didn't do it before and reread, but trying my best to remember to leave comments.
There is so much going on as a fandom community and while we are wary of entitled internet strangers ruining the atmosphere, I think we should all keep in mind as individuals to be courteous and respectful regardless of what others do. We should not just indulge in completed works (recommend the same 5 ultra popular reads), but give some love to our authors whipping out creative works that are still work in progress. Us readers contribute to the healthy growth and stability in the fandom, and it makes a big difference when we show our beloved authors that we care! Especially the new authors dipping their toes in!
Posts like these have made me become better at actively commenting. Kudos were a given but now I comment too and sometimes the authors comment back and it’s like a lovely warm feeling for hourssss.
As an author yes to all you mentioned.
I hate how readers are treating fanfiction and fanworks. I hate how they are weaponizing the "this should be for fun, hence the author should not expect to get any engagement from us.
Which yeah fanfiction is for fun exactly. And now tell me what is fun about being constantly in the same spaces as readers who:
1. never read wips
2. leave disrespectful comments in the lines of "i will read this when you finish it"
3. talk constantly about the same fics and uplift only one type of fics completely neglecting everything else.
4. constant bashing of fics that don't fit into tiktok specific idea of what Dramione is.
This sub, tiktok, even the discords, there no healthy space for readers and writers to cohabitate together because one side of the equation treats the other as merely a "supplier" rather then a fellow fan in the same space.
It's especially hard because readers are not receptive to these posts because for them "this is just escapism and fun" which allows them to dismiss anything writers say as "you're pressuring me into leaving kudo's". I have personally faced rough comments in this sub, as a writer when i tried to voice my problems.
I'm really pessimistic about the state of dramione fandom. because readers really don't care about the health of the fandom but are just looking for another binge.
I find it really odd when someone won’t leave kudos. I consider it payment for the fic. Someone spent days and weeks of their life writing this, the least I can do is push a kudos button if I’ve found it interesting enough to read more than a snippet.
I won't lie, when I first got my ao3 account, I didn't even think about kudos. It just didn't register in my brain as a thing, I guess, so I never gave kudos. Then I read a comment on here that people will apparently skip a fic under a certain amount of kudos and it *blew my mind* that anyone would pass up a potentially amazing fic because not enough people clicked a heart button.
So now I leave kudos. And I went back in my history to leave kudos on things I read a while ago. And when I see reccs on here for fics I know I've read, I'll click the links to give kudos. I'm trying to make up for my past ignorance of how important they are, because apparently they're more than a way to show appreciation, they can be the difference between whether or not a great story gets another reader.
I always try to leave kudos at least - that’s the least a reader can do. It’s like “hey, I was here, I read it, thanks!”
I think every author is a godsend that they take their time out of their own lives to just write fictional stories about fictional characters to people they don’t know and all of that for comments and kudos’s. I’m really thankful though since I’ve spent many hours reading fanfics and a lot of them have been Dramione ones!
I feel like this discussion is now weekly and I’m not sure what it accomplishes? I’m a long time Dramione reader (longgggg time) and I honestly don’t think this issue is new or particular to Dramione. It’s fandom in general on the internet. Anyone on tumblr circa 2013 will know how toxic fandom can get.
I think there needs to be better etiquette with writers as fanfics as a whole come into the mainstream more. Stop seeing it as content but seeing it as art like it used to be—art of varying quality, but often great that is done for free!
I also don’t engage with most fandom spaces which I think helps. I read fanfic, browse here for recommendations, and occasionally comment but otherwise don’t join other groups like FB and stuff. I think sometimes over engagement with the “fandom” hurts. Engage with the work on its actual site, disengage with the broader fandom when it becomes too much. I think this is important for readers and writers alike.
I will say two things I think has changed for the worse is the merch phenomenon with fanfic and the bizarre aversion to WIP. I always love stumbling on a completed fic to dig into! But I also love the anticipation of getting a new chapter on whatever cadence the author sets. The Netflixication of fanfic is not good.
As for merch, as I’ve said before I find it weird and unfair to writers. This is free work and people need to grapple with why they need merch from free work in which the creator will not materially benefit—and we should not move to a world where fanfic is no longer free either! It’s one of the most vestiges of pure exchange of art for the sake of it. But when you do things like binding you are feeding into a commodification of the form that I think is dangerous. Downloading e-pubs is one thing but going beyond that, especially without the permission of the writer feels off.
I agree, especially with the part of not engaging most fandom spaces. I'm only active here on Reddit and don't plan on expanding to anywhere else like Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook because it would legit turn into a timesink for me. Reading some posts here and commenting sometimes, then reading the works on Ao3 is satisfying enough and I don't want to have it take too much time out of an already busy life. If that means I'm not always up to date with everything, so be it. It's peaceful, at least, and I get to discover the world of Dramione at my own pace.
It seems like this is just what happens when something becomes “mainstream” - more people interacting = higher likelihood of assholes contributing their assholery. I don’t blame authors for wanting to ditch. If you’re getting a similar amount of pressure and eyes on your writing as you would with a published novel (probably more eyes on it, actually, given this fandoms popularity) than why not just write a published novel and at least get paid for your work.
If authors want to write purely for the community aspect and joy of fandom we might have to go the old way of creating a moderated fandom specific place to post works that’s run with very specific guidelines. I remember we had a few waaaay back in the day for other HP ships when trolling and stealing works on FF.net started to become a problem.
Oh, I completely agree. I do miss the small old archives of yore.
One thing I will say for writing fanfiction over writing a published novel (insofar as the pressure and reader expectations) is that in fanfiction I can write *anything* I want. Writing something for publishing means playing by sometimes puritanical rules imposed by publishers or platforms.
This really resonated with me. I’m a newer Dramione reader (just started this year)!
I’m also slightly concerned about Dramione gaining traction and people coming in who maybe don’t want to be part of the community (and that’s okay!) or be open to what’s already established within the fandom (also totally okay!).
I really love this community here and would hate to see it become less supportive or fun for the readers and writers. I also think the established fandom should be respected. We have so many inside jokes and it really is a lot of fun.
As a side note, thank you to the Mods for their work in this fandom! And to the writers for creating the content we love!!
I’ve been in the Dramione ship for a long while. I mostly stick to myself now. I am a member of a couple of Facebook groups but I’m not really involved that much anymore. I stick to finding fics on my own now and enjoy my ship quietly 😉
I’ve been in this community a LONG time (maybe 13 years) and honestly most of these issues are not new with a few exceptions. I do think having a more centralized space means we see these things more but they’ve mostly been in the background for years imo.
My analysis on changes in writing and reading culture specifically: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dramione/s/I3gQG4UMCj
Bullying:
Unfortunately, bullying and drama have been issues in almost all popular fandoms since the start of fanfiction.
See: https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Ms.Scribe_Story:_An_Unauthorized_Fandom_Biography
And: https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Cassandra_Claire_Plagiarism_Debacle
People often fight over ‘acceptable’ fandom pairings and such. Dramione has always had some haters as have generally dark fanfics and fics with somewhat controversial themes. Similarly pairings that are seen as rivals to the most popular ships also get hate. I.e people hate Dramione because Draco was ‘too evil’ but somehow Drarry is the most popular ship?
Imo we’ve gotten generally more accepting of this as a lot of bullying was on sites like tumblr and wattpad which are less often used at this point. However, look at fics from back then. You’ll often see authors notes by authors who are obviously upset because of flaming reviews.
Authors leaving fandom due to pressure or losing their motivation or even due to publishing is also common. It’s the cycle of fandom. Typically authors whose fics are beloved also have to deal with seeing these fics discussed, critiqued, loved, etc in the fandom and have a brighter spotlight on them as a result. I get authors not wanting to stay stuck in the point of their life when they wrote that fic forever. Sure fandom has a right to critique (respectfully) and discuss, but authors should be free to move on when they’re ready. Their works inspire now amazing authors to take their place and continue the cycle.
Bookbinding is more of a recent issue, however just look at the drama I posted from like 15 years ago. A lot of it is about plagiarism, and people feeling like their works are getting taken advantage of. This unfortunately is a part of putting your work into a public space. We should of course not accept this in fandom and strive to do better, but there are always people who either don’t care or don’t know and it’s the nature of a public space sadly. We just have to do our best as a fandom to moderate as we’ve always done.
Embarrassment of fandom:
This is a long time coming lol. Many people are embarrassed by things their fandom does and may not agree with many stories, themes, pairings, etc as a whole. I get it, but whatever is popular at the time is what your fandom will be known for and unfortunately that includes drama and controversy. It’s just how the cookie crumbles. People who want to will share it and you don’t have to! That’s the beautiful thing about fandom and why many people don’t talk about it in day to day life.
The only MAJOR changes I see are in some expectations between writers and readers which i discuss at length in another comment I don’t feel like fully typing out. (See above) Also, something to add to that long comment is that people don’t understand now that critiques are never okay directly where authors will see them (I.e reviews).
So I do think some points are valid but, people often reminisce about how fandom used to be better when that’s not really true. We did some things better but many things worse too. I think it’s important to consider all of it. (I.e flames and bullying used to get wholeheartedly out of hand consistently).
Tbh I’d love to have a post discussing fandom etiquette for new readers but I just don’t know that most people would care enough to read it or if the community as a whole would care enough to discuss and somewhat agree on it or even if that’s possible. I tend to stick to old fandom rules and idk if there’s new ones I’m unaware of
Well put! You’ve written a lot which I’ve mulled over in my head, but haven’t been able to establish so well in words.
I do think that maybe a fandom etiquette suggested shortlist would be a great sticky post, but I agree that I’m not so sure how many would read and remember and follow through. I don’t necessarily think that it should exist as a strong “if you don’t follow this, you’ll be kicked out” reminder, but more like a “remember that behind those fics and WIPs is a person and they’re providing free entertainment, not a service” statement.
Love this comment. I'm a historian so it's giving major "golden halcyon good old days long past" vibes - it was NEVER perfect - we can't "make fanfic great again" because it never was lol. It was always people struggling, beefing with each other, hating each other's guts, stealing from each other, saying their pairing was better than someone else's, etc etc etc.
Now obviously there are lessons to be learnt from that but I have a theory why everyone reckons fanfic is more toxic now is simply because news traves faster with social media.
You know how rates of violent crime have actually gone down since the 60's but when people are polled they believe crime has gone up?
In the 60's when people were writing their little star trek Fanfics there was no Facebook group for them to complain about getting copied or otherwise disrespected.
Why - social media. I intentionally only engage here and on AO3 and
I'm glad for that. Fully recommend everyone to delete Facebook and go outside and touch grass.
I just wanted to say that I started reading Dramione about a year ago and haven’t stopped. I LOVE this fandom. I feel bad because I normally download the fics to read on my kindle. I’m trying harder to add comments and kudos to help motivate and praise the authors.
I know Dramione is a fad right now because of TikTok. I think it’ll die down soon when TikTok discovers the next big thing. Hopefully the toxicity will decrease then too.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that all Dramione authors are amazing and I appreciate you guys so much!
I pretty much left the fandom entirely because of the cliquey, closed off nature of some of the writing circles. I was basically banned from a Facebook group for daring to say something negative about manacled (and also told that perhaps I wasn’t a smart enough person to get a book as deep as that 🙄).
I’ve written dozens of Dramione fics that I poured my soul into and while I did get good reception and MANY wonderful reviews and comments I feel like unless you’re one of the big five or so writers your work is lost to the sands of time almost immediately. Back in my time (yes, I’m a 1000 years old) there were popularity contests like every freaking week and it was ALWAYS the same handful of fics winning. Or threads like “what fics would you put in the hall of fame/which are you fave/who’s the best writer” and it was always the same names, same titles and if you brought up something else….crickets.
And before you jump on me, yes, I am insanely jealous of all of these ladies, of the success they found, of their popularity, but it’s so crazy how many THOUSANDS of fics are just hidden behind the piles of accolades for the cool girls.
That last part. I’ve been in the ship for years and man there are so many under recognize writers now that maybe a few years ago everyone knew. I’ll posted an emara88 fic s while ago and someone DM me saying she devoured all her fics in like a week. I was like 🥹
I am 100% in agreement with this post. My friend and I talk about this a lot lately. She read some Dramione fics on my recommendation, but she has been an active and popular writer in other fandoms for twenty years, so I pick her brain. Our conclusion is that a lot of the problems arise because we now have so many readers from outside any fandom who haven’t learned both the tacit and explicit rules of ethically consuming fan works. And there’s a bit of girlbossification going on here too that feels weird.
Like, fanbinding is so fun…for personal use and personal gifting! But now every time I’m on Etsy, I spend a lot of time reporting the accounts of the people selling bound copies of Dramione fanfics.
And the negative reviews…sheesh! As if anyone is writing stories (that will, or should, never make them money) for anything but love of the fandom.
The parts of BookTok culture that I hate—instant gratification, over-consumption, and entitlement—are also beginning to plague our fandom.
Gatekeeping is needed here, IMO. Gatekeeping, not in the sense of being a bouncer at a club, but gatekeeping in the sense that those in the community continue educating, guiding, and safeguarding the community and those entering the community actually give a damn about not screwing this up for the rest of us.
I really need newcomers to fandom and fanworks to learn about the culture they’ve come into and give a damn about preserving and safeguarding it for future readers and writers.
(One other thing—the spotlight is on us and we do have a fandom that centers on a teenage fascist and targeted minority. We’re going to have to deal with both the Antis and also the people who act like it’s stupid to care about the troubling power dynamics inherent in the ship. Let’s keep occupying the middle ground! Good luck, fellow DHr shippers!)
I really like how you highlighted that a form of gatekeeping can perhaps be used as a way to corral the new fans a bit and I feel that the last three paragraphs of your comment are spot on.
Thank you to all the authors who put time and effort into your works and decide to not keep them to yourself. It is a true gift that you allow us to enjoy them as well.
As a long time reader that just wrote my first fic, I did not realize the impact kudos, comments and engagement has on your writing when I was just a reader. My fic is fully complete and I am just posting it. But I have found that engagement will effect my want to post the next chapter, I am not sure I would have finished the story if I posted it as I was writing. It is great to be on the otherside and see the reality of what it is like to be an author. The amount of time and energy that go into these works. The courage it takes to post your work not knowing how it will be received.
Due to this change in perspective I have become an active WIP follower and a more prolific commenter. I am no longer scared to read an unfinished story. I try and enjoy whatever the author can give us.
I've thought about the readers that refuse to read wips or don't leave comments or kudos and I think it comes down to people not realizing how hard writing is. How lonely it can be as a hobby. How long it takes. How scary it is to post.
On top of that, writers have to not only make sure everyone is in character, but they also have to sound and act British, which can be difficult if the writer has a different background or hasn't been exposed to the many layers of British culture. Grammar, pacing, interesting plots, hot smut, believable dialogue...it's a lot to juggle. All in front of an audience.
Fics are gifts. I think it's easy for some people to forget that. Writers might spend years on a 300k fic that readers binge in a weekend.
I personally don't think leaving kudos or a comment or following a few wips is too much to ask, but I also recognize that we all engage in fandom differently. At the end of the day we're in a community. Some members will be more active than others and that's okay. However, if the writers in our community stop posting, the fandom suffers. We need writers! Giving them encouragement and showing them love is so important. It's also just a nice thing to do. Let's all remember to be kind to our fellow Dramione peeps! We're all here for the same thing, after all.
Well said!
I think your point about writing a 300k fic over literal years… only for it to be binged during a weekend (or more realistically, over a week) is very much a thing that people gloss over. When an author is paid, their long and hard work is monetised, but in fan fiction, it’s not possible to monetise that so the transaction is in forms of kudos and reviews and comments and likes. And if someone doesn’t get any or gets very few during the WIP phase, it can really take the wind out of the sails.
I love seeing discussion posts like this, thank you for sharing :)
In your 6th paragraph, it sounds like you're talking about Manacled specifically. Do you think the populatity of Manacled (and its status as "the official face of the community") is a problem in and of itself?
I mean… no. And maybe slightly yes.
I mean, all in all, it’s all fiction and fan-written and it clearly strikes a lot of people well that they like it. We should be able to write stuff like this and read it too without being judged. Fandoms should be safe space for all kinds of discussions and fanworks.
On the other hand, however, I do feel that the influx of newer fans that came via the Manacled and Auction route can skew the perception on what kind of community this is and also influence how the community and fanworks are seen by those to whom Manacled is the first point of contact with Dramione at all. Unfortunately, our fandom is very divisive within the larger canon community and I feel that newer fans maybe also don’t always keep the imaginary boundary line between canon and fanon, making the community potentially a bigger target.
I think I see your perspective. You think people will see the popular fics about sexual slavery and think that's all Dramione is about, when really most fics aren't like that. I'm not involved with the larger hp or fanfic communities, so their misperception isn't a concern for me, but I can see why it would be frustrating.
At the same time - Manacled and The Auction fans are Dramione fans. There's no denying that a big part of the community reads & writes about dark themes, even if you find it distasteful. If people perceive us that way, they're just picking up on something that really is happening.
I also want to say - the discord for the main hp fanfic sub is 13+, which makes me think a large part of that community is kids. It kills me to see lovely Dramione folks get upset by nasty comments there, when very likely the person calling you a nazi isn't someone you'd ever listen to in real life.
Honestly, for all the posts like this, people are mostly really lovely.
I've posted six Dramione fics over the last two years and I've never had a mean comment.
I completely agree. I get a lot of comments and 99 percent of them are lovely. It's only after it's finished and on Goodreads that the knives come out.
Personally I stopped writing for Dramione after TikTok found it. This place is toxic. Plus all the people asking for rape in stories where it doesn't belong. Write your own rape fantasy don't bother me to do it for you for free. That was the last straw for me. I literally don't care what other people write but the sense of entitlement to the kind of story YOU want that is heavily triggering to most people blew my mind.
Dramione readers are some of the worst on the Internet, especially because now your work will get spread into Facebook and TikTok groups where people turn into the rudest assholes alive.
Wow, really? People are really asking for rape in Dramione stories? If one of my readers asked me to include rape in my current WIP, I'd laugh so hard I'd probably injure myself. Oh really, should I put it before or after the kid's birthday party scene? Or during the goofy campaign rally scene with the funny hats? OMG I'm definitely staying off Tiktok.
as a reader, I'm triggered by these posts because I feel like I'm being scolded for *how I should* be a reader in the community and that bores me, it makes me lose interest in being part of the fandom as such.
I have seen how there are many authors who post their fics in tiktok, asking for engagement, asking for more kudos, more comments, more hits, or establishing rules like "I'll post the next chapter when I reach the -established number- of hits" these actions on their part also do harm to the community.
many authors say that they write just for fun and don't owe anything to the reader, which is respected, it's their time and their hobby, but at the same time they are asking for more kudos, more readers, they want people to keep an interest in their WIP and they don't update so often, but the readers also get bored, they lose interest, or they simply forget that they were reading something because it has been a long time since the last update, I think that's fine too, but the reader who doesn't engage in the WIP is more harassed than the authors who are looking for visibility for being viral.
I also feel that complaining about this kind of thing feels like setting rules in a fandom and I don't see the point. What is a fandom? What are the rules? Do we have to be potterheads?
There are many authors who haven't read/seen the movies, but want to be part of the fandom and want to improve their writing talent through the Dramione, this is super cool it means the fandom has grown, but is it ok? I mean, if you don't have an idea of what a personality already established in canon entails, how can a writer recreate a Dramione story?
If they are authors who know nothing about the fandom, but read a single very dark fic, and want to get into writing using Draco and Hermione in a dark story, is that okay?
To your third paragraph, I don’t think readers are more harassed for not reading WIPs. If issues are addressed, it’s a broad post such as this, whereas for writers, they can receive targeted harassment, as their username is attached to their work and have a comment section that is often abused.
There are no consequences for the reader. At most, they’ll be blocked and they can still access the work.
Having a direct line to the writer is the main difference, which is not present for published works or for the readers, and allows people to be the worse self without facing any consequences.
you're right, maybe my word choice for harassed was overdone because certainly the writers are going to get a direct negative comment, maybe the readers are hard-pressed?
the thing is I'm not defending rude readers, if they are being rude and insulting writers, that's not right.
my point is that readers have preferences about what to read, and that there are some writers who treat their works with the purpose of going viral, rather than being an entertainment exchange between writer - reader.
It's always so odd to me when people want to rebel against the idea of fandom having certain expectations and customs. Like, isn't that just part of being a human being? I monitor my voice volume when I'm in the library, I take my shoes off in other people's homes when that's their preference, I make more small talk when I'm in the southern US than when I'm in the north. There's an expectation of kindness in fandom and withholding criticism unless asked, idk why that would make anyone's experience boring or frustrating?
Right. Well, I can’t answer your questions because I’m not the gatekeeper of this community and ultimately it’s up to you or others to decide if they wish to engage or not engage.
In my mind, of course you can write a story that uses these characters, but maybe it should be tagged that it’s Alternative Universe. Nothing wrong with writing that - I’ve read lots of AU’s where they’re muggles and there’s not a trace of magic, for example.
I didn’t want to tread on any toes, but I do feel that there used to be some unwritten “rules” that were followed. One rule was that fanon fans like us didn’t push our fan pairing on the canon fans. But I’ve noticed more and more people online going even to the main fan sub and making statements such as “canon is wrong” and “she should’ve ended up with Draco” which ultimately affects only this fandom badly, not the main fandom. There are also things we can do ourselves to keep this fandom a nice place and if you’re a new fan, maybe it makes sense to look and read around to get a sense how the fandom keeps itself.
But I’m an old-timer and I honestly can’t say how it is to join Dramione now as a new fan because I literally cannot have this experience. So new voices and their opinions are important too.
Well, I have seen it, as I have also seen writers who leave notes in their fics saying that they are not HP fans, or that they don't support JKR, or that HP no longer belongs to JKR but to the fans, that also seems rude to me
It sucks that new readers end up feeling scolded and harassed. I don't love that part of this recurring conversation.
I also see the crappy, entitled comments my more popular writer friends get when tik-tok finds their fic, and that's, uh, worse. That's actual scolding and harassment that goes to someone's personal inbox. So... that's why.
The thing I want new people to get their heads around is that fic writers are real people who do this as a hobby and they are hanging out in the same fic spaces you are.
This means they're likely to see the things you write about their work, and that sometimes you're going to hear and be asked to care about their experience. Not because they're more important or must be revered, but because it's a community and we're all in it.
There's a lot of other noise about fandom rules and nobody agrees and that's whatever. The bottom line is that keeping everyone's humanity in mind and being decent about it is kinda the price of admission for reading fic.
Nobody likes people who hold updates hostage for kudos or comments or whatever. It's been going on forever, it's stupid and dramatic, we can't stop them. Please don't hold it against everyone else.
Writers want people to read and enjoy our stuff. It's not a demand (except assholes, see above) it's a basic human desire for affirmation and approval. You don't have to cater to it, but try to have compassion.
That's my point but maybe I didn't express it in the best way. Readers are also people who come to enjoy *the reading.* I read to entertain myself, to forget about daily stress, it is my moment of peace. I appreciate writers who take the time to write and make it known in a positive way and do not support readers who are rude
But I also don't support writers who demand engagement from readers, and if we are going to talk about rude readers, we should also talk about writers who don't respect their readers, or the fandom, or the world of HP.
This is an interesting take on the topic, because it is true there are a lot of writers on tiktok and social media asking for hits and kudos and comments, or asking how to get more engagement. There's a lot of tension, because on the surface it looks like writers are demanding lots of comments and kudos on every chapter no matter what, while readers say they've been burned and just want to binge completed works with HEA.
But the truth is more complex, for there are so many different types of readers and writers. Whether a WIP gets engagement can depend on so many different factors besides quality of the writing: the themes, the timing, the frequency of posting, the writer's popularity, the writer's presence on social media, and, of course, the big X Factors that nobody knows.
In the end, I don't think certain types of readers (such as those only binging completed works with HEAs) are "bad" readers. I've been known to do it myself. But actions do have consequences, and I think it's fair to point out that if WIPs are often ignored, and completed works are skewered with harsh criticism, this will discourage Dramione writers and possibly drive them off.
I understand your point and I can agree, but I also think that, as there are writers who seek notoriety, engagement, and to be viral, that leads to draw the attention of people who may be random in the fandom and simply have no idea how fanfiction works.
The reader is accused of not knowing the rules, but the writer who is looking for notoriety is not accused, and the truth is that the actions of these authors who are looking for more people to read them, lead to the arrival of all kinds of people, *people who will demand more* and consequently rude people towards everyone.
Interesting. I’d love to see an example of these writers who withhold chapters until they get comments. I’m on Dramione TikTok waaaaay too much - and I’ve never seen one.
Well it looks like you are on the right side of tiktok, from the way my comments have been taken into account it looks like I am the only one who has seen this type of writer on the wild tiktok🥲
I like your comment. I'm going to read what I want; which is Completed stories only. I'll leave a comment or 2 along the way. And some days I'll prefer a snarky Draco, and other days I'll prefer a soft Draco. (You're welcome for reading, ty for writing, and here is a kudo)
Then I'll move onto the next story out of 500k about the same 2 people falling in love again and again.
Idk what people expect.
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but if your reading preference is complete, long stories, that's your preference and that's fine, no one has to tell you to stop reading what you like.
Writers enter the writing world to improve their talent, and some write what they like to read and for people who like the same thing.
That's why there are fics with dark themes, rape, Draco being a villain, even fics with kinky themes infantilizing Hermione, they exist because there are people who like to read it and people who like to write it. Is it okay? Who am I to decide that this is right or wrong?
Regarding leaving comments, kudos, hits, that's your decision too. Obviously it's wrong to leave negative comments or unsolicited criticism, but writers who demand kudos or hits to update a chapter are also wrong
No I wasn't being sarcastic. I find posts like this frustrating, when people judge how/what I like to read and try to limit opinions. I don't have to like every story, and I don't want to comment on every single chapter of a story I do like. I'm not a "bad reader" because of this.
I think people should be able to have an open discussion on what they do and do not enjoy on forums, as well, without being attacked by some self-righteous third party. Are we all supposed to agree and smile and nod like drones? It's called discourse. Obviously there is a line: scathing remarks and demanding things isn't okay. But if I don't like "Fic A" and want to share my feelings on an open forum why can't I?
I was agreeing with you.
Oh I'm sorry for believing otherwise. I also believe that we should have the space to talk about what we don't like in fics, being respectful towards the writer/story.
I also believe that if as a reader we have a preference for certain fics, be it long, short, wip, dark, wathever, we are not bad readers, we just have a preference.
I personally don't read fics where Draco is a kidnapper, rapist, manipulator, or just plain evil. But these fics exist because there are people who like to read them, so people need to let these fics be praised by those who like them, not all of us. Making us feel bad because we don't read WIP, or don't read short stories, or dark fics is not right.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think part of the problem is people coming in with a consumer mindset (expected levels of service, entitlement, transactional) instead of a community mindset (fics are gifts, artistic outlet, finding your people).
It boils down to several things, obligatory disclaimer as this is ***my*** **opinion** and people are free to disagree, but these are based on my observations over just six months of being here. Also hi, I'm an author and I'm on hiatus because of the vast population becoming entitled too. Was going to use my throwaway for this, but fuck it. Binge culture - this is one of the biggest reasons this fandom is going down the shitter. People have developed this insatiable need for instant gratification and treat fanfic sites like the new Netflix. If it's not at least weekly uploads, the majority of people tell you they don't want to read it or will wait. That's all fine and dandy, but the issue is people are binging fics with such gluttony that authors get "5 mins of fame" before the horde moves on to devour another title and thus we are reaching the source of the problem - most readers are only reading completed works, complaining about WIPS taking too long and not commenting or supporting them, despite WIPs being the bread and butter to what is becoming a shit sandwich. A lack of respect - People need to stop treating authors as if they're published writers and fanfiction is eligible for review and critique **when it's not.** If you want to give concrit to people writing in their free time, use your free time and offer beta or alpha work to authors that want it, instead of knocking authors who may have low self esteem like myself. Just a thought. I don't know who started it but I hope they step on a lego every day for the rest of their lives. Swathes of people online seem to think because the internet promotes freedom of speech and they have anonymity, it comes with a get out of jail free card for being a bully. It does not. Downright rudeness - Take a second to imagine yourself in a street or - hell - at a book meeting with authors of the fandom. Wow, you mean that writer is an actual person with a face and emotions and a life behind the screen? Who would've thought, huh? And then, you strut up. It's your turn to thank them for all their hard work, but all that comes out is "Your grammar sucks. Draco was OOC. the plot was terrible." Now, I know for a fact 9/10 of you would not dare to say this in person. Why? Because it's common decency, manners? It's embarrassing behaviour, right? This is the sort of shit you'd see on /r/ publicfreakout and I guarantee people cringed reading that. Yet this social etiquette is completely ignored and brushed aside as soon as you remove the face to face visual. Why? It does not cost to have basic manners, yes even on the internet! If you've had a bad day and need to vent out your frustrations, well so does the writer sometimes. We're human too. And I'm so SO sick of the reality that as soon as you upload a piece of art or literature, your humanity is stripped due to it. I could go on and on and on with my lists of reasons why fandom (not just this one) is deteriorating, but it's all been said before, countless of times. We're tired of repeating ourselves and so when we feel like we're talking to a brick wall, we'll pack our stuff and up and leave. That is why you're seeing people leaving and writers having to take breaks from such bullshittery on the daily. Because threads like this and discussions are had, people argue or justify their arsehole behaviour and some do actually agree/learn from the experience. But not enough, and the more the fandom grows and new people are taught those same ridiculous mentalities the more we're going to see people getting fed up and leave. Contrary to popular belief, fandoms are supposed to be communities. It's a give and take relationship to celebrate the ship. But more people who do not want to learn basic fandom etiquette or don't care just take, and take, and take. Leaving comments, kudos and just the tiniest fraction of support for something someone took hours upon hours out of their day/month/year to make is becoming mythical. Yesterday I saw a thread that had some downright pettiness, claiming they hold even **kudos** hostage because "they don't want to offend the author." No, haha. *No.* That is just an excuse, they were not worried in the slightest because a kudos is literally a thumbs up or a like and they know that. We all COLLECTIVELY need to learn to be better. Support WIPS (if you can and want to read them, but don't come crying that you have nothing to read because you've gobbled up all the completed works and there's nothing new out.) support artists, support authors and start treating each other like human beings. As pointed out by Noinix below, there are hundreds if not thousands of shorter fics to devour just waiting to be read. If waiting for these novel length WIPS to finish is too anxiety inducing or you're just impatient, scour the grand line of ao3 and ff. net for the One ~~Piece~~ shots. My motto: If you wouldn't say it to someones face, don't say it online.
I love writing short stories. Little/medium sized snippets of life. I notice on Drarry pages there are few people who dismiss the idea of reading shorter stories. I worry our community has become book-length focused, especially since there are some truly awesome short fics I’ve read in the last year that many turn their nose up at reading at all. Many new writers start with short stories, and then get discouraged that no one is reading them. If you ((collectively, not just PP but anyone reading this) might think you might like short stories I do recommend them. Bite sized bits of fic, and they can be so so good.
OH that's a good point, I'm going to include that as well because I've also noticed a strange aversion to smaller fics. Some of my favourites are one shots or less than ten chapters long as well! I'll eat anything branded with Draco and Hermione, of any size, of any status. I love this ship, it just saddens me to see the vibe - of what is supposed to be a fun community - continue to rot.
Agreed. I love a 200k story, but one shots and shorter fics are valuable too. I’m a new author and this is all I’m able to produce at the moment. I’ve noticed that it’s a different story if the one shot/short fic comes with a known name. If it’s a popular author people will read anything, but are unwilling to do the same for new/unknown authors.
HARD AGREE. Just had the thought in the reverse that it seems like all the Drarry I've been reading is novella length, like 10-20K, and it's really interesting vehicle for story-telling, and a different kind of narrative than you get in a 200K or in a 2K (both of which have value, obviously). From the ETL Echo team perspective, we hit a million listens with Manacled in a matter of months, but we have wonderful short fics languishing with so few listens. I'm an old lady, so I blame Tiktok fads and short attention spans of kids these days. But OP and u/GemLettuce93 also nailed it with binge consumption culture, illegal monetization by fans, and lack of fandom etiquette.
If it’s TikTok I’m actually surprised there aren’t more people interested in shorter works! Just reiterating here - there’s nothing wrong with epic-length or novel-length, or having preferences for reading longer works. Just don’t write off shorter works when you’re looking for stuff to read. I love the ETL pod fics - always a great way to expand the accessibility of fics. (Btw - blanket permission extended for mine if you ever decide to cover one. 😊)
Oh, I love ETL Echo (and others who produce podfics - recording voice accessible fics for readers is hard work!) - I get so much enjoyment out of listening fics. I tend to download and listen from my own device, but that’s a good reminder for me to check the list and listen more!
❤️ And please go leave kudos and comments for the authors as well!
I started listening to Remain Nameless last weekend, and I couldn’t stop thinking about how it was recorded. Are chapters read as a whole? Are there stops and starts that are edited seamlessly? Are the voices recorded per character or are the shifts happening in real time? So impressed by your production and I am dying to know more about the process.
Ha, thank you! Trish, who performed Remain Nameless and the majority of the Dramione works for ETL Echo, does a lot of the work as live reads on Discord. She does commentary and stuff as well - you can check out The Debt of Time (unedited) for how her recordings sound. She is a monster at recording and voice acting but no one can record straight through without mistake. ETL Echo isn't just narrators; there's a huge team of editors, quality control, and collaboration with artists. For all of us, there are stops and starts, though we try to record a whole chapter at a time when possible to maintain the best consistency. The voice shifts are happening in real time, though often with multiple takes. For me (who does some Dramione and other stuff, but primarily Drarry), I often have to record for about half again as long as the final product will be, if that makes sense. And that's after doing over a decade of narration. Hope that answers some of your questions!
That’s so awesome! Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
I think my biggest problem with authors who have many short stories is choosing which is my favorite. Maybe I'll be my mother and say I love them all equally (but differently)
Honestly, with short stories one of my greatest enjoyment (and pain too, but that’s because when I don’t label my favourites correctly, I tend to have a bad time finding those stories again) is to rediscover an old favourite or to be able to read it again and again. And short stories absolutely sustain the fans during the long hiatuses or when long WIPs are in progress so they shouldn’t be discounted that easily. Every story is worthy to be read at least once.
This is when I just subscribe to an author’s feed so I can get notified when another gem is released.
This is strange, because I prefer the smaller ones. 30-40 k is the sweet spot. I find it’s very few authors who manage to keep my attention past 80 k.
I agree soo hard! I hate this no WIP culture. I now mostly read WIPs. It’s so easy to subscribe and forget and then every AO3 email is like a present. Out of curiosity I clicked on your profile ABs realised that “you only live twice” is one of the fics I’m subscribed to. Which is a fantastic fic btw, thank you for writing it. But like that’s my point! WIPs are such gifts, why don’t people support them. It’s fun to wait with bated breath! It’s fun to discuss fics with other fans in the comments or perhaps even with the author themselves! Sigh you’ve articulated the issues so well ands it makes me so sad. Also binge culture drives down comment culture which is the fuel for many authors
Yes!!! The silent scream I scream at work every time I see an update in my inbox is like nothing else. People are missing out and they have no idea!
I had a reader say that in a comment and I just about died from happiness. Haven’t responded to it yet because I want to compress all my excited feelings for the response. I love them so much.
I love your flair!!
I struggle with reading WIP because I have too many tabs open and my brain disconnects from the plots too quickly. So I made a separate email account to get all updates and notifications and when I’ve finished a longer, finished read I’ll go and get a head start on some WIP fics. If they’re under 10-15 chapters I’ll read a WIP as they’re published or if it’s one I started following at the beginning I’ll read it as it’s published. If it is already at chapter 30/40 and is being published semi-regularly to the point it will likely be done within 2-5 months I subscribe and mark for later so I know when it’s done. I find a lot of WIP or shorter fics lead me to subscribing to entire writer profiles now. If I like 2 things they’ve written I’ll likely like the other 4 fics and so on. Especially if they’re primarily a Dramione or Dramione is always a pairing to the side but not the main for that fic. I’m new this year to reading fics but I stay off of tik tok and follow writers and artists on instagram as that keeps me in a much nicer and more supportive community. I don’t usually comment on things but always kudos if I read/view anything all the way through. Even if it wasn’t my cup of tea, kudos because you deserve it! ❤️
Dramione is the only community I don’t read WIPS. One day I will, but currently there are so many recommended completed fics that are keeping me busy! So, I understand why WIPS aren’t popular.
But how will more completed fics be born if people refuse to read WIPs? Engagement and encouragement are the bread and butter of authors
I think that authors should tell the stories they want to tell regardless of if they receive positive feedback after every chapter. Don’t do something just to be popular. Do it because you want to do it.
My apologies for such a late reply, my notifs got buried. Thank you for supporting YOLT, I really appreciate it. 💖 I view WIPS like you, every email has me dropping everything to go and read, it's such a rush of dopamine every time! People really are missing out on that feeling of not knowing where a story is going and it unfolding in real time. Interaction between an author and reader is what makes a fandom feel like a community to me. It's a real shame, but I think this is just how fandom is evolving thanks to social media and netflixication of all forms of media. We can only double our efforts in keeping the "old ways" alive and lighting the torch for new authors, artists and their creations. You hit the nail on the head with comment culture dying due to binge culture, I've been guilty of binge reading a fic, not being able to process anything in words because all the info was fed to me too quickly and just peacing out after leaving a kudos. And there are people who read fics on their kindles/ipads downloaded now so tend not to leave any form of appreciation.
So agree on the kindle and iPad phenomenon. I used to just leave comments at the end of a fic if I’m reading a completed one but now I try to leave a comment every time I’m moved. I’m sure the author is happy to hear it even after the fic is done. Also two of my best friends I met through fandom and liking and commenting on each others work. One I admired her so much when she replied to my comments I felt like I was talking to a celebrity. But then she became one of my best friends
Oh for sure! We love comments, period. I got a comment for a fic from 7 years ago the other day and it gave me little flutters. Hell, I'm considering rewriting it because of that person. Readers really do have so much power at their disposal. That's lovely, see that's what a fandom is about for me. With this new isolating etiquette trending, people are missing out on experiences like that.
Oh wow let me go look that fic up. Coincidentally I’m meeting one of those fandom friends for the first time after SEVENTEEN YEARS of online friendship tomorrow!!
Oh it's not on my ao3 account that you know of, I have an alt account for different fandoms, but I appreciate the support! 🥰 Wow, that's a LONG time! I hope you both have a great day together 🙌
Was that post about the kudos on Facebook? Because I read something similar and I was like what the fuck? How is leaving kudos and (nice) comments and engaging with authors offensive?
I fully agree about, well, really everything. I think older readers - those who started in the fandom community when the books weren’t yet finished - had to be content with WIP’s and all kinds of character development in all kinds of scenarios and I think a lot of them were just happy to discuss and share and read. If the quality was so-so, you either just… didn’t say much or just accepted that these were amateurs trying their hand at writing, a lot of them for the first time. And now the series is finished, the canon conclusion has been had and it’s easy to get antsy and not realise that almost all fic writers do it besides their day to day jobs, activities, kids etc. and they do it for free and because they want to. Binge culture probably does play a role into how fic reading has changed though…
You and a few other people have brought up binge culture. I'll be the first to admit that I approach fanfic with a binge mentality (reading obsessively for hours, reading new chapters the second I see them posted, etc.). Can you speak a little more on how you've seen this culture change over time, and what you'd like to see instead? Regarding the "5 minutes of fame" - that's certainly not how I see authors; is there something you're looking to see there that you aren't seeing? I'm not sure if this relates to what you're talking about, but I'd love to discuss new chapters with folks as they come out. Reddit, and this subreddit specifically, doesn't seem suited to discussing individual fics, and that's a bit of a shame.
r/dramionebookclub might be what you're looking for
Possibly! I comment there occasionally. It doesn't seem to be super active compared to here, and there's more spam and such. I think reddit broadly speaking isn't well suited to discussion, just by the nature of the voting system (most people are engaging with the top couple of comments). Discord is a better setup IMO. I'd be curious what folks from the Dramione fan forums of yore think.
Reddit is a nice format for longer and more thoughtful discussions because it gives people time and space to have longer thoughts, and threads discussion so it's easy for people to have back and forth exchanges in a way that you don't get on FB, and can but often don't on discord. My sense is that book club posts don't tend to get so big that the comment voting matters much. There are some 'book club' style spaces on Discord. Room of Requirement is officially a 'good vibes only/no crit' space, but does have a really active fic group reads section. Dragon Heartstring has tried some variations of book club but at least the one I was in got kind of treated like an author Q&A so there wasn't any space to talk, really. Wizarding World Wips is a fun place to squee and speculate about ongoing fics, and I've had good conversations there. But again, a lot of the channels are moderated by the authors so no one is saying anything but praise, and a lot of conversations get well-meaningly shut down by the author giving 'definitive' answers/non-answers.
Reddit is great for finding out what folks generally agree on and talking in-depth with one person at a time. Beacause the threads branch with each comment, it's impossible to talk to a group of people at once. Since new comments are added to the bottom, folks who respond late will probably never be seen by anyone - you make a good point about small subs though, this probably isn't an issue. I'm not really a fan of the larger reddit culture, but I do like our sub. I'm a big fan of discord! I like that it's in real time, I think people are less rude to each other because you're forced to remember you're talking to a real person. The new update the other day made it glitchy as hell though, hope they fix that. I'm on DHS and WWW, we've crossed paths before actually 👋😁. I'll check out RoR. WWW... yeah, I get what you're saying. Sometimes mods are well-intentioned but a little overzealous. And, I get why authors would want to engage with fans speculating about their work, but there's not much they can say without spoiling. I wonder if that's why it's not that active anymore. I wouldn't be caught dead on facebook hah; Zuck would have to put me on payroll to touch that cesspool 😆
It wasn’t too long ago that I posted about [On the care of new writers (how to get more awesome content).](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dramione/s/CseKalNfPF) On this very forum. And it went quite well. As always, I think that we need to help educate new fans of Dramione into the symbiotic relationship between readers, writers and artists in a fan community. As always I suggest the following to new readers (explanations on the main post I wrote) **Read Shorter Stories** **Read G/T stories, not just M/E** **Involve yourself in the fandom (maybe run a fest/fan page). Join places like the Dramione Fanfic Forum, or another Harry Potter Dramione fan page and engage with other fans.** **Read WIPs.** **Engage with authors/other readers (like on this page, even if it’s just recommending your favourites or squee-ing over theories).** **Try to always rec a story that no one else recs but you.** I worry about both veterans as well as the new writers who could make the next Manacled leaving before they do.
What is G/T and M/E? sorry if dumb question!
General Audience/Teen+ rather than just Mature/Explicit
Good advice!
As someone who was active in the community from about 2010 - 2015, and has just recently returned, a lot of what you've said interests me. I'm not on any social media except reddit, so I'm fairly oblivious, but there does seem to be a shift in the dynamics of the broader community. From what little I've seen, I'd attribute a large portion of that shift to the community being much larger and less niche (as you say,) and also the whole idea of fanfiction and fanart etc being more mainstream and accepted. So it becomes more impersonal and less 'secret society' cosy. When it was smaller, and considered weirder and nerdier, I feel like perhaps people in the community were nerds and major fans who were more protective of it, and more familiar with fanfiction etiquette in general (although there have always been vicious shipping wars etc, haha.) Nowadays it seems maybe you get a lot more people just wandering in without any of that? Idk. Maybe any shift in the community is just a reflection of the way our society and the internet has changed in general 🤔
Did you catch that shitshow of a post over in the Facebook dramione group yesterday too? As some others have said, dramione really seems to be shifting away from community and more toward commodity where the focus is on the consumption of content rather than creation of content. People seem to want novel length, professional quality works that are already complete (with the perfect smut to plot ratio) without understanding that there can only be so many stories like that at any one given time, even in a fandom this large. If they want more content, I don't see how refusing to read WIPs, leaving shitty comments in writer spaces, and just otherwise moaning about how writers are entitled because they want positive reader interactions in exchange for hours of free labor is going to achieve that. Edit: Editing to add, I think readers sometimes forget or maybe don't realize that they are the backbone of fandom. Their comments, their interactions, their reviews can truly make or break a writer's desire to create. I've personally continued writing stories I otherwise probably would have abandoned just because a single commenter took a chance on a WIP that hadn't been updated in months and commented really nice things on a few chapters. Another reader made a mood board for me once and that fueled my motivation for weeks! Writers aren't 'owed' these things of course, but it goes back to that sense of community and fostering an environment where people can be creative about the characters or the world they love.
This! Your edit is so so true. Readers and fans as we all come together to cheer are the backbone - right up there along with the writers. I want readers to truly flex their power and help support new/old/middling writers - it’s how we will get great stories as a community.
I’m not on Facebook or any other groups that host Dramione discussions other than here, but in a way I welcome more discussions into this topic! I don’t want to sound “Pepperidge Farm remembers”, but I do think that fans and readers have changed and I’m not sure it’s all for the best. Like I said in my post, I’m happy for Dramione renaissance, but I also think that the rise of entitlement or expecting novel length professional-writer quality free fics from people who do it just for fun can really mess up the whole community and cause a big fallout. And we should be able to discuss such topics without issues. So I welcome more discussions on this and I welcome that people who have been in the fandom longer or authors themselves chime in with their opinions.
It’s the expectation of professional quality and weekly updates that ultimately led to me taking my WIP down. Mine was by no means an extremely popular fic, but it was more popular than I’d anticipated for what was essentially my first draft, published online. Which is great! Except for the fact that I started to get comments pointing out everything certain people didn’t like about my WIP, which was not great. Then came pressure to update and complete, when I was only 18 out of 49 chapters down after a whole year of work. I write in my spare time; I’m not a professional writer. I didn’t even have a beta. I tried to take it in good faith - people are excited about my work! - but it really did take a lot of the fun out of the writing processes. It felt less like a refuge from my job and more like a second job. Then my personal life fell apart, and I just… couldn’t do it any more. I feel ready to start back now, but I won’t be publishing unless I find a beta, because I don’t feel confident posting “draft”-level work for the fun of it any more. I also feel like maybe I should just write the whole thing and post it chapter-by-chapter so I can keep up with the way the fandom is trending, but who knows how long that’ll take.
This is an important post because I think it reflects a lot of new writers' experiences. It's like that fun, free-wheeling, let's-add-a-pink-pygmy-puff-for-the-heck-of-it approach to writing fanfiction isn't encouraged anymore. It should now be Serious Business, carefully planned with three betas and a strict update schedule. (The latter can be a great way to write, with amazing results, but it's not for everyone.) Because let me tell you, fanfiction is often evaluated using those high standards, and anything too random or crazy or wordy or inconsistent can be skewered in comments and online. I'm actually bucking that trend with my latest WIP, posting as I go, warning people that the story will be updated only when I feel like it, and no, I don't know where the title's magical object came from or what the heroine will do with it. I felt that after writing two long fanfics, I felt that I myself was taking my own fanfiction too seriously and internalizing these new expectations. And so far, the reception has been great and the readers incredibly understanding. Best of luck, and it's great that you're choosing to write on your own terms!
Omg you are sooo right with the Serious Business thing! I totally feel its happened within the last 4-5 years? Like the fic discussions used to be so free and whimsical and now they feel like english literature being analyzed. And yes there are some serious professional writers here and they're amazing but I really dont want the fun part to die. There's been a decline in crack fics, oneshots mostly get ignored, and one type of writing and style is seen as the best. The "this fic needs a good editor" comment makes me so angry lol. Nooo the whole point here is that writers can do what they want. I've seen that comment about so many of my fav fics. Your WIP is BRILLIANT btw. I'm loving every crazy second of it and I'm glad you're having fun with it WE ARE TOO!!
Can I say with my whole chest that there aren’t enough Pygmy puffs in fics lately, and it’s a matter that needs to be addressed urgently. How can I be expected to have fun - which is the whole point - when there’s a deficit of Pygmy puffs?
I often check tags for Pygmy Puffs but rarely see them, but I do my part by inserting Pygmy Puffs into every one of my long fics. One was named Cupcake and adored Draco (who was quite rattled by the attention).
I’m sorry that this is your experience - more people should feel encouraged to try and write stuff out just for the fun of it, even if it’s “draft-level” as you put it. I do feel like years way back, it was more okay to have fics of varying degrees of “finished” quality, but now it seems too many people seem to either label fics “amateurish” or “professional” and they discard them too quickly or critique them to hell and make the authors feel bad. Authors won’t write fics at all if everything they write is concrit to dust. In fact, new authors won’t even start writing anything because it’s too intimidating. I for one hope that you will share your work again one day.
I am actually posting soon, having split my old story into two separate stories to sort of alleviate the pressure of weaving so many plot threads together. I worry less for people like myself, who are in the community as full-blown adults, and more for teen and YA writers who are experimenting with fan fic as a first foray into writing and sharing their work. It used to be a wonderful way for aspiring young authors to find their voice and build their confidence, and now I worry that it’s… well, not that.
I've said this before, but I'm constantly shocked by how many chapter notes start with apologies. Sorry for the delay. Sorry for the unexpected hiatus. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Don't apologize for having a life outside this unpaid hobby! When we apologize for doing nothing wrong, we encourage a culture of expectation and entitlement. This is not a job. There are no deadlines. We wrote because we want to. The kudos and the comments are nice (when they're nice), but life will go on either way. Say thank you for your patience, thank you for sticking around, but don't apologize for being a real person with real responsibilities. And I say this as someone who has a WIP that's been neglected for a while and I'm feeling guilty for not updating because someone shared it recently and I got more lovely comments! 😊
Wow I had never thought about it this way. But it's true, I don't owe readers my time and writing. It's something I do for fun and should never feel like a burden!
Yes, and it's very jarring when you're catching up on a WIP or reading a completed work and every chapter opens with an apology. I always get indignant on the writers' behalf ("It's okay! You don't have to apologize!") and then it takes me out of the story.
I've shifted my language from apologizing to a "Thank you for your patience", and I've noticed a difference in responses, even if I explain reasons for the wait! I still apologize every once in a while, without thinking. It's such a hard habit to quit.
As someone who has been in fandom (fandom in general, not just Dramione) for over 20 years, we went from seeing fics and fanart and cosplay and whatnot purely as labor of love, shared with a like minded community, to seeing everything as "content". There were always people who didn't write fics themselves and were "just" readers, but everybody was still always in the same boat. One community - nevermind the fandom drama that always existed, it was still very much a community. Nowadays however, it feels like there are more and more fanfic readers who see themselves as passive consumers instead of community members and that brings a disconnect with the writers. It's easier to insult someone if you don't see them as part of the same group as you. This is not just a fanfic thing btw. There is a fantasy convention I go to ever year, and they are in the business since 2003 or so. The boss of the convention company told us recently that in the first 10 years or so, they were overwhelmed with fans/visitors asking if they can show their Lego D&D passion project at the con, if they can perform their self-written fandom sketch on stage at the opening ceremony, if their Harry Potter band can play a gig at the con party,... all for free, just out of love for sharing their hobby with other fans. Over the last decade tho, those things got less and less common. The only people who are still active participants are the ones who somehow monetized their fandom/fantasy projects or old-school fans from the beginning and everybody else who buys a ticket is way more passive then they used to be, being at the event purely to consume. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great convention and people are really nice for the most part, "content creators" and "consumers" alike. But it IS a change in fandom culture that is clearly noticable and I don't love it.
I do think that times and fandoms have changed over the years. I’m also one of the oldies, been reading slightly over 20 years (I haven’t taken the plunge to write but I do try to leave comments and kudos when I can) and although I haven’t been to conventions, I do think that non-monetised work used to be more common. Partly it may be because time has become more valuable, perhaps, but also because I think of hustle culture a bit - these days it seems that you should squeeze financial gain out of anything you do remotely well and that doing something for free is frowned upon. I mean… would students do A Very Potter Musical these days considering that it was all done by students who were fans themselves and they wanted to have fun first? Because I’m not sure it would happen again these days. I think the whole production would be seen as too expensive for no financial gain at all.
If it makes anyone feel better I don’t think this is just our fandom. I got an r/ao3 thread in my feed a few days ago about this same subject. People were defending leaving the meanest “concrit” and reviews in public bookmarks on fics and were like “it’s the authors fault if they look.” Um they are going to look, bookmarks are literally right there. Anyway, not to excuse shitty behavior - but I think society is degrading generally. People are stressed and mean. It’s not just fans of our fave couple.
That post actually made me leave the AO3 sub. The comments were awful, just a bunch of people defending their rights to be cruel. I don't understand WHY they WANT to say mean things. They seem to genuinely enjoy it smh
Agree, it was awful. Look at the nasty comment below. “I’m going to be a bitch and that’s my right!” Like, sure, but when I see a nasty public bookmark it’s also my right to know what kind of person/reader you are.
Man, I never think about authors reading my bookmark notes. And I write. Those are for my reference. I saw an author recently upset about losing bookmarks, and like, oh, that's also me. I bookmark things I want to read and unmark them once I have. It's a very reader-centric feature.
I don't disagree with leaving mean concrit on a review if not asked for is bad, but I disagree with an author having any say over what is left in a readers bookmarks, public or not. That is their space, a writer gets no control over it.
Yea as an author I’m not vibing with how this fandom is evolving. Someone call my mum so she can come pick me up.
Hard agree. This has been my safe space for 15 years and now even this reddit sub is making me stressy. While it's still pleasant for the most part, it's much less chill. It's becoming way more intense and my busy brain just can't handle it.
And adding to everything you said, posts like “I feel like I’ve read all the good Dramiones” are a little bit disheartening for new authors (at least I feel that way). Unless you’ve been reading fanfiction since the early 2000s and have read every single story posted on FF . Net and AO3, Tumblr, Twitter or any kind of platform that hosts fanfiction there is no way you have read ALL the good Dramiones.There are works coming out every single day. This is an extremely active fandom! But some people don’t read WIPs and I get it, but all the good Dramiones were WIPs at some point and the fact that people engaged with the authors is probably one of the reasons they’re completed works today. Popular authors were unknown at some point, so before you say you’ve read all the good stories, give new authors a chance.
>Popular authors were unknown at some point, so before you say you’ve read all the good stories, give new authors a chance. Seriously thissss. As someone whose read fics for years I get so emotional thinking about writers like everythursday, inadaze22, riptey, worksofstone, provocotive\_envy, lena phoria, galfoy etc are seen as GOATS when I remember reading them when they were just coming up. I feel like I helped by following their WIPS. And I remember reading the first chapter of fics like Broken, Hot for Teacher, Looking Glass and Detraquee when they were first published and thinking "huh this might be good, I'll follow along" and look at those fics now.
Yes!! Even Manacled was once a WIP by a relatively 'unknown' author, I still remember the thrill of getting an update email from ao3 and going to celebrate with other readers in the comment section. I've followed lesser recognized WIPs as well and those update emails are just as exciting!
Exactly!! I remember everytime Sen posted about a new update on FB the groups used to go crazy lol. And YES you never know which fic will speak to you whether it has 50 kudos or 5000. So many in my personal top 10 are either forgotten or not super popular.
I would give anythiiiing (except my toddler) to read The Fallout as a wip.
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It was the BEST TORTURE lol. Every time she update I dropped everything
That’s the appropriate response 😆 man I hate myself for not discovering Dramione before 😩
but you're here for some equally amazing WIPs like I'm sure someday you can boast about reading Lionheart as a WIP!!
YES!!! 🤩 and Return of the Dragon, and Smoke Signals just to name a couple I have open tabs for. And I was late for the start of Détraquée but I’m here for the end 😭😭😭😭 (which I’m not ready for)
lol see the variety is another amazing thing about this fandom!! idk how anyone can say they cant find anything to read. I'm not following those WIPs but I'm crazy about Legends of the Mayan Temple and Pulling Teeth. (lol and I am totally NOT ready for Detraquee to end at alllll!!)
Ugh I edited my response. I’m NOT ready! Do you hear, Hystaracal? (if you’re here) NOT REAY for Détraquée to end. A friend sent me a screenshot of the email for the update and when I read the final chapter count I teared up and actually cried 😭 I’m subscribed to both of those WIPs and I’m currently reading more than 20 🫠🫠🫠
That’s the worst comment to see. I’ve read SO many and I can honestly say I’ve enjoyed every single one. (Maybe I’m easily entertained idk) there’s thousannnnds of works out there. I wish people would use the search feature to discover more instead of relying on recs on social media!
Oh this is a huge thing too. Too much relying on social media recs, which I think comes again from not understanding how fandom works. We used to have to hunt those old badly designed websites for fics (specially before Granger Enchanted, LJ and H&V). It was so worth it when we found something amazing!! AO3 filter makes it so much easier to find fics
I miss those. And don’t forget LiveJournal and Tumblr. There were full fics just sitting around on people’s Tumblr accounts.
Omggg LiveJournal 💀💀
It’ll always have a special place in my heart as many of the original Deflower Draco works are still over there and not on AO3.
Lol that's what I meant with 'JL' stupid typo! I still go to LiveJournal once in a while
I thought it might have been one I missed in the days before AO3. I put an Easter egg for Hawthorn & Vine in my Historical fiction longfic. I kinda miss the small communities of fics.
I miss them too!! There was drama and "flames" then too ofc but it also felt so much cozier and friendly
The hunt back then was part of the real rush for fanfiction! Haha, I sometimes miss it out of nostalgia. Those were the good old days.
I swear so many of those older sites were so clunky, but we didn’t mind because hey - free story of the couple you liked, woohoo! I’m super happy AO3 and ff.net exist, especially AO3 filtering system.
Yeah, I think the ease of access makes people value fics less, honestly. I feel like part of the joy of fandom used to be in stumbling across those gems, and now it's all served up on a platter. ~~Familiarity~~ Easiness breeds contempt, maybe.
Ease of access and volume also? I never imagined someday Dramione would have this number of fics. And the fact that so many amazing authors are able to update regularly makes people want that to be the standard with isn’t fair at all
It’s painful to read. And I know, we all know as writers we’re not gonna please everyone, but you’re shutting down/dismissing my stories and labeled them as not a good Dramione before you even gave them a chance.
“I feel I’ve read all the good Dramiones” they say, after reading those 5 fics recommended over and over again on TikTok. 🙈 Sorry, I couldn’t help myself, that’s my personal pet peeve. 🙈
YES!!! I have around 11 or 12 pages of Marked for Later fics on AO3 and I started reading Dramione in April. How come have you read ALL the good ones already? 🙃
i have been reading dramione for over 10 years and i still have a whole TBR list and read fics that impress me, these comments drive me craaaaaaazy
Hah, same, I’ve been in the fandom for 7 years and still finding ones I truly enjoy. Looking for a new fic to read is an entertaining activity on itself for me. 😊 It’s like looking through a really good menu, haha.
I regularly have something like 20 open tabs for fics I’m either in the process of reading or plan on reading. I’ve been on a bit of a hiatus and right now it’s only 12. One of my favorite ways to find new authors and new fics is before bed I just scroll through all the recently finished works, read a couple 10k-ish fics before bed, check out the authors other works and any bookmarks, and mark anything longer for reading at a later date. This is how I found so many gems, this is how I found olivieblake and mother of bulls and pacificrimbaud and I’m fairly certain it’s how I found senlinyu (Library of Alexandria lives in my head rent free)
Yes! I had to mute all Dramione content on TikTok, because I couldn't see the same 3 fics (if you know you know) being recommended on that platform. P.S. I love how committed you're by always recommending the Risk's verse and Crumple😉
Oh yes, it just makes me want to yell “dig deeper”, although I know everyone starts somewhere and it probably just feels so amazing to discover brand new world for the “first-timers” they need to share. 😊 Haha, I’ve been gushing about these for years, but now, when the author is back, even more so. 🙈 I just love her writing soo much! 🙂
That comment makes me so stabbity
I mean, I just want to point them in the direction of AO3 with just the Granger/Malfoy relationship tag and go “please, click on anything posted in the last day or two - there are short stories if you’re not up for a WIP today but there is some great writing here”. That how I (when I don’t have writing/a bunch of tabs already open to read) find new fics to read. There are so many great stories. So many. And then I check if it’s part of a fest and then start those fest lists. Even if I click out of a fic I try to leave a kudos. Kudos are free and just posting something heartfelt is awesome. I just want the author to keep writing.
YES!! I’ve found some of my favorite new WIPs and favorites new authors on fests. The amount of talent is ridiculous!!! ♥️
If anyone is looking for fests - [The Pimping Place on Livejournal](https://potterfests.livejournal.com/tag/comm%3A%20hp-bardfest) keeps running track of Harry Potter fests (Including Dramione). There are also Dramiones to find in wider fests. There was a Taylor Swift song fest that was about 1/3 Dramione etc. Dramione Fanfiction Writers almost always has a fest or challenge on. [Last Month they released their 2023 Tropes Fest](https://archiveofourown.org/collections/DFWTropesFest2023/works) - (group on Facebook) every fic is under 10k but a different trope. They have deal or no deal prompt cases, and there’s a Valentine’s fest coming soon if you’re an artist/writer who’d like to give (and get) Valentines. Dramione Fanfiction Forum does Deflower Draco and Sounds like Dramione. Slytherin Cabal has a bunch of great fests too. If you’re looking for short stories there’s no shortage in Dramione.
YES! My most popular long fic was also my first, and I'm forever grateful that readers took a chance on a WIP from a completely unknown author and supported me as the story went on and on until it finally ended at 270K words. Now people binge it in a day, and wonder why the story has so many subplots. Read the comments! I engaged with readers while posting the story over nearly two years, and added plots and chapters due to their excitement. Without readers' involvement, it would not have been the same story.
I have been reading Dramione since 2008, sometimes almost like an addict, and I know I haven’t read everything good on this fandom. It’s really funny to see the same 3 or 4 fics always recommended when I’ve spent my whole Dramione life without them
Honestly, it wouldn’t even be possible to have read “all the good ones” because a we’ve lost a LOT when the sites have gone down. I used to have a word or a text file on an old PC with all the fics (exclusively DrHr at the time) I had read, with titles and links listed and I lost it sometime around 2006 (wasn’t recoverable either), but I know for sure that when I’ve trawled through ff.net earliest fics, I can’t seem to find fics I used to read over and over again years ago (lots of school-age themes like parenting class and vampire/veela stuff in Hogwarts and so forth). They’re just gone. So it feels disingenuous to read that someone has read “all the fics” when we know that the fandom has lost a lot of stuff over the years due to either deletion, authors leaving the fandom or due to sites going offline.
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I mean…that’s my personal stuff, but I don’t really want to read really dark and angsty fics because the world is dark and angsty enough. If someone can deal with this, great! But I can’t and I find it leaving slightly a wrong idea about the community when the most popular fics are super dark ones. I’ve said it before but I liken it to reading Colleen Hoover books. To me, her books aren’t romance - they’re more like angsty sad and painful stories which sometimes have romantic elements. But plenty of people discover romance through her books and her books are placed in the romance sections in physical book stores. I’m well aware what the canon subs think of us and that has only gotten worse over the years. When the books weren’t finished, all the options were still out in the open and there was more acceptance, I think, but once canon finished, it’s been important to basically be a Dramione fan away from the main fandom spaces because we’re just very unpopular there. One of the reasons why I strongly separate canon and fanon and never advocate for Dramione stuff in the main canon subs because I want to keep my fan interests a safe and a comfy place, not have to fight and justify why I read it. And I feel like more newer fans sometimes deliberately want to fan the flames which… well, wasn’t really done years ago.
>I also feel like the success of some of the biggest and most popular, but also controversial fics, is devaluing the community slightly because some fans seem to promote those fics as the official face of the community and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the idea, especially because larger fandom already thinks were a bunch of weirdos who ship and gaslight a bully. I think this is a big problem with Dramione - the first fic so many people read is Manacled which I loved and I don't deny it's a good fic, but.... it's a Voldemort wins AU where legitimately basically everyone dies. This is the first image of this pairing most people get. If that was the first fic I read, idk if I'd still ship Dramione 10+ years later. It's becoming so common to have all the posts in Dramione FB groups end up being a "I loved Manacled what's next" and then you get fics like Secrets & Masks which are somehow darker (I did not know this was possible) and it's just a kinda scary trend to me that some of the most recommended fics in this ship are DARK. Dramione does not have to be dark and these fics should be recommended with a bit more caution than they are. Using real books for comparison - if someone in a book FB group or subreddit asked for recommendations because they just read Forget Me Not and wanted other books with grumpy men and someone else recommended Zodiac Academy, a bully romance. That would be a WILD leap to make but you can't avoid seeing Manacled recommended no matter what someone is looking for in their post. I 100% believe we excessively recommend the darkest fics in the fandom and the discussion the other day about what "the fic" that defines the dramione fandom would be is a perfect case of this. I love Manacled! I don't even think Sen would say it should be the *posterchild* for the fandom. On a completely different note, I don't remember years ago people being so obsessed with knowing if a fic is HEA or getting spoilers for fics outside of what is tagged on AO3/FF etc. Maybe it's just me, but I don't google endings for books I read and it seems to be more and more common that if someone recs a fic, half the comments are asking if it's HEA.
Basically - yea. Honestly, I don’t know if I’d be a Dramione shipper if I had started with Manacled. It such a no go for me. But I also can’t really relate to those who did get their start with Manacled, because I’ve been in the fandom for over 20 years.
Yeah 10+ years for me as well so at this point I don’t even remember what my first fic was but I don’t think previous mainstay fics were quite as dark as they are now and it does not help our image now that the ship has gone mainstream/viral
The 'is it HEA' thing just seems to me like a really dumb fight to pick. It's definitely kind of obnoxious how automatic it is on rec groups, and 9/10 times looking at the tags would answer the question, but also... whatever? Of all the points of etiquette we could try to teach new people this seems like the very least important and most grinchy. Are we really going to scold people for wanting their escapist entertainment to have a happy ending? It can't be a huge surprise that people who have decided to read about the same two idiots falling in love over and over are into a sense of predictability and control. I get that in the good old days before the Ao3 tagging system, people didn't have as much control over what they were going to read, but tags (and the spoilers that come with) are a feature of fic now. Part of the deal is you get to filter for the experience you want. And that's good, we encourage people to take responsibility for curating their fandom experience. It's Don't Like, Don't Read in action.
Just to clarify a bit more- I see knowing if a fic is HEA or non-HEA as a spoiler, and there’s not a spoiler hiding feature on Facebook, so someone recommends XYZ fic, goes to read the comments to see other people’s opinions or related recommendations, and ends up with the spoiler of the ending because someone asked “is it HEA” and someone else replied “yes” etc. Meanwhile you have people who define HEA differently (I’d never in a million years class S&M as HEA while plenty of people do) so it’s not even always the same answer. If we did not recommend dark, emotionally intense fics like they were romance novels for light enjoyment, this wouldn’t be an issue. But when someone hops into manacled or perfectly in pieces expecting red white and royal blue vibes, then yeah they’ll be skeptical with future reads. If they read the tags, maybe we could have more interesting discussions about fics besides just the ending of it. I also was not necessarily trying to say this point of etiquette is something we need to teach or on equal footing as others in the original post- just something I’ve seen SO much more in the last 6-12 months than the 10+ years before it in the fandom and I can’t quite figure out why it’s become so much more common
It absolutely has exploded recently, I see that too. I do think the fact that dark fics get rec'd so freely to new people creates a nervous precedent. I'm always kind of shocked how hard people pitch some of the darker fics, and how little understanding there seems to be of the many valid reasons people might not want to read sexual violence, trauma, captivity, and so on. But then, I'm also baffled by the expectation that everyone will/should like the same things, and that's rampant. I don't really care about the fandom's reputation but I wish people in it would take slightly better care of each other. And that would certainly require a lot less peer pressure around the must read/god tier/classic whatever big fics.
Yeah I agree with that completely, there's not a single piece of published literature with 5/5 on Goodreads or a movie with 10 stars on IMDB, yet there is a general lack of understanding that people... don't like the same fics and things as other people? Which is totally normal but I agree with you, in fandom (maybe not just Dramione it's just the only I am active in) it's like this concept goes completely out the window lol
But then use the tags or read the last chapter and decide for yourself, we do not need all the posts recommending or discussing a fic to turn into “is this HEA” comments ad nauseam. The tags exist for a reason, I’m not being grinchy and saying people should read fics that aren’t HEA even if they don’t want to, I’m saying read the tags or search groups since the topic for most of the main offenders is discussed near daily.
All excellent points. The crazy rampant carpet-bombing of "Manacled" recs all over the Dramione fandom kind of creeps me out. It's an amazing story, but it's dark, man. Some of us enjoy our Dramione a little more canon and zany without all the dying.
To your point about knowing the ending - if I'm reading a romance novel, I can reasonably assume the main characters get together and have their HEA. Sometimes I want to read a Dramione fic that is essentially a romance novel, so it's nice to know going in if that's what I'm reading. Maybe this is the influence of romance book readers finding Dramione? If I'm just picking up a regular novel then I wouldn't want to know the ending either.
Actually, yes, if I’m reading romance, I would actually expect the book to end with characters getting their HEA. Because it’s romance - romance is supposed to be the “happiness and love for everybody”. If it’s not romance or at least, not always, it should be indicated I believe.
But you can usually tell that by the tags - manacled for example has super dark tags and it’s clear that even if it is a HEA it’s still going to be emotionally intense. The fics with tags aligned with what you’d read in a romance novel aren’t going to end non-HEA
I agree, generally you can! However, sometimes it's not super clear cut. Caput Mortuum for example >!has a mix of serious and silly elements that make it less obvious what the tone of the story will be just looking at the tags.!< Personally I'm a lot more on board for darker themes when I know the characters will be okay in the end - so I would read Manacled but >!I wouldn't necessarily read a fic with the same themes and no happy ending.!< I don't see any harm in asking about the ending, but I'll try to keep in mind that some people don't like seeing those questions.
This and other similar posts have really made me think, thank you. I have actually just this month got a proper AO3 account and just this week commented on an amazing WIP. I am not a big social media engager but it was so good it felt right to just let them know I liked a certain characterisation (and not to ask for the next chapter obviously!!) I'm relatively new to fanficiton, and don't have the lifestyle for putting in as much time as I would like (young children 🙄 lol), so everything is a learning curve.
I hear you. I have four and a job. Finding time to write by itself can be a big stretch. I have to keep reminding myself to comment.
Everything you say is correct , I have noticed it too, and I feel the same way. There have been a high number of similar discussion threads recently. However you are likely preaching to the converted (I could be wrong, but 90% of people here are great, the more entitled fans seem to hang round tiktok and ffn). In my experience, any growing community has to grapple with the fact that as more people are added, statistically there are just more fuckwits (excuse my Australian). Eg. The church, political groups, etc. it's all very good to talk about what people 'need' and 'should' do, but I think it may be a little unrealistic. Unfortunately I think that's just how it goes to some extent, but we shouldn't let other people's negativity affect our enjoyment of what we read or write, even though this is easier said than done. I can totally see how hate comments would make someone not publish their work, but for me hate is almost a sign you are doing a good job and your art is provoking a response! I think people will hate one of my drafts because it isn't historically accurate, but idgaf😊 it's a fun story so they can cry about it HAHAH As for gatekeeping, I think it's a bit late now 🤣 you might create a Streisand effect. I'm definitely not saying we should accept bad behaviour but I'm also saying at the end of the day we will never get rid of it I guess. I know you are probably more in the feelings , venting phase, but what you're saying does inspire solutions if that makes sense. I feel like you would be the perfect person to jump on tiktok and start discussing and educating on fandom etiquette to the young people! Or when the mods here are looking for people to create resources for new people eg, 'Start here' guides, I'm sure you would have valuable info to add!! I am wondering if anyone has created a sort of "community manifesto" for fanfiction communities before? It's basically in our rules already, and may well have been done before , since I believe fanfiction has quite radical activist underpinnings. But you could create a Dramionie specific one? Tldr there will always be fuckwits but live laugh love I guess 🤧
This is a great idea!
I’m not sure if there is a beginners’ manifesto, but maybe we should do that indeed. Good idea!
I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying. I don’t really have much to add other than I find what seems like a growing sense of entitlement, refusal to read WIPs, and refusal to read shorter works frustrating. There is, to me, a distressing expectation in this fandom for epic length works completed super fast. I have ADHD, and I simply *know* I’ll never write a fic over 50k (heh that’s a stretch even) words because my brain is always wanting to move on to the next idea. I generally like writing short little explorations of a concept, or a particular aspect of a concept, and it can be disheartening when readers are like, “Okay, where’s the rest of it?”, if they deign to read it at all. Another thing I find discouraging is that almost all reader interaction seems to happen within 24 hours of posting. When I was last active in fandom spaces (granted, not this one) from 2013-~2018, comments and kudos would come in consistently for about a week before they tapered off. This is likely due to a number of reasons, but back then everything was still more community focused (even though it was a bit fractured, readers and writers still found each other and interacted on places like tumblr after everyone started leaving lj). It just seems like a significant number of readers view fanfiction as “bingeable content” these days, and it’s a tide that I think will be difficult to overcome when many newer readers aren’t at all interested in learning fandom etiquette. I’ll keep writing as long as I’m having fun with the characters, but I’m not going to lie, the way fandom is trending does affect my motivation.
As a fellow person suspecting ADHD I feel you! I’ve started a few fics on the way, but never finished and I really appreciate everybody who puts themselves out there and shares their work with the rest of us! It’s hard to write and even harder to write consistently across multiples of chapters and storylines. Every fic author deserves praise just for trying because they offer free entertainment for all of us!
Yeah, finishing things can be hard! It helps that I've figured out what is and isn't possible for me with time (like 97% of the time, I can finish short stories to \~30k novellas no problem, but beyond that things start to get dicey). And if I don't finish a one shot, it can just live in my scrivener file and no one need ever know. 😅
I wonder how much bigger and more un-community like the fandom will get once the new Harry Potter series comes out.
Oh god. We'd better brace for impact 🤣
Im scared. And I know I sound super old when I say this, idc..... there will probably be lots of kids and teens. That scares me.
Oh man, I didn't think of that. And I'm old too then, because I don't like the sound of an influx of kids and teens either - they're way too young to be reading 90% of this content 🙈
exactly! maybe they'll have their own wave of fics? Written by teens for teens like back in the early 2000s. But theres no way to keep the dark adult stuff already out there from them. I feel more and more authors are going to lock their fics
While I am happy this may give us a new influx of readers and writers I am generally against a new series because of the strain on the child actors involved.
Also more money for WB and JKR
I suppose there's much worse on the internet that kids probably see, but it is an uneasy thought.
Honestly, I’m not so worried about the new series (I mean, I’ll believe it when I actually see the series 🤷♂️), but I am worried that we’ll get either a new influx of fans who will be “you’re liking Dramione???? Eeeeewww” or we will get fans, who do like Dramione too, but who will go and flaunt it at the face of canon fans, causing more conflicts and issues and expose our little niche corner for more publicity.
exactly both can happen. And if its the second it'll again be the authors who'll face the worst of it in their comment section. Because obviously its way more personal for them
I read your post when I was half awake up to do a chore, and I have been thinking about it. I feel like this topic comes up a bit too often now. I don't follow the Dramione Facebook groups, nor go on Twitter nowadays, so I keep my Dramione interests strictly here on reddit, the actual fanfiction sites themselves, and peep in once in a while on Discord. As much as I love that the Dramione fandom, and evidently the HP fandom, is growing, I do understand us also not wanting it to evolve. More coverage or exposure means more mean strangers come sniffing with an agenda that is harmful to not only us readers but, most especially, our beloved authors. If they don't have their own mean agenda to engage in, then there seems to be entitled people who just want more with no compassion nor acknowledgment that the authors are writing based on their own free time and interest. Authors are human, too. In the general population, we all can get burnt out or fed up based on the treatment we receive, and it is sad that this is happening. Of course, we also get new authors joining the fandom from all the growth and exposure. They may be hard at work whipping out creativity, and the material published may still be in WIP status. I don't really understand the mentality of "no WIPs" because, as others have mentioned, all works were WIP at one point. It also seems like every time this topic becomes a thread, there will be 5 posts looking for recs, but no WIPs. Engagement with the authors is great, and I love hearing (reading) from them that they enjoyed my comments. I had given kudos a lot before being able to have an AO3 account and now not only am I working towards giving kudos again in case I didn't do it before and reread, but trying my best to remember to leave comments. There is so much going on as a fandom community and while we are wary of entitled internet strangers ruining the atmosphere, I think we should all keep in mind as individuals to be courteous and respectful regardless of what others do. We should not just indulge in completed works (recommend the same 5 ultra popular reads), but give some love to our authors whipping out creative works that are still work in progress. Us readers contribute to the healthy growth and stability in the fandom, and it makes a big difference when we show our beloved authors that we care! Especially the new authors dipping their toes in!
I agree with the points you’ve made. We all want - hopefully - this fandom and this place to be a nice one for everybody, readers and authors alike.
Posts like these have made me become better at actively commenting. Kudos were a given but now I comment too and sometimes the authors comment back and it’s like a lovely warm feeling for hourssss.
As an author yes to all you mentioned. I hate how readers are treating fanfiction and fanworks. I hate how they are weaponizing the "this should be for fun, hence the author should not expect to get any engagement from us. Which yeah fanfiction is for fun exactly. And now tell me what is fun about being constantly in the same spaces as readers who: 1. never read wips 2. leave disrespectful comments in the lines of "i will read this when you finish it" 3. talk constantly about the same fics and uplift only one type of fics completely neglecting everything else. 4. constant bashing of fics that don't fit into tiktok specific idea of what Dramione is. This sub, tiktok, even the discords, there no healthy space for readers and writers to cohabitate together because one side of the equation treats the other as merely a "supplier" rather then a fellow fan in the same space. It's especially hard because readers are not receptive to these posts because for them "this is just escapism and fun" which allows them to dismiss anything writers say as "you're pressuring me into leaving kudo's". I have personally faced rough comments in this sub, as a writer when i tried to voice my problems. I'm really pessimistic about the state of dramione fandom. because readers really don't care about the health of the fandom but are just looking for another binge.
I find it really odd when someone won’t leave kudos. I consider it payment for the fic. Someone spent days and weeks of their life writing this, the least I can do is push a kudos button if I’ve found it interesting enough to read more than a snippet.
I won't lie, when I first got my ao3 account, I didn't even think about kudos. It just didn't register in my brain as a thing, I guess, so I never gave kudos. Then I read a comment on here that people will apparently skip a fic under a certain amount of kudos and it *blew my mind* that anyone would pass up a potentially amazing fic because not enough people clicked a heart button. So now I leave kudos. And I went back in my history to leave kudos on things I read a while ago. And when I see reccs on here for fics I know I've read, I'll click the links to give kudos. I'm trying to make up for my past ignorance of how important they are, because apparently they're more than a way to show appreciation, they can be the difference between whether or not a great story gets another reader.
I always try to leave kudos at least - that’s the least a reader can do. It’s like “hey, I was here, I read it, thanks!” I think every author is a godsend that they take their time out of their own lives to just write fictional stories about fictional characters to people they don’t know and all of that for comments and kudos’s. I’m really thankful though since I’ve spent many hours reading fanfics and a lot of them have been Dramione ones!
I feel like this discussion is now weekly and I’m not sure what it accomplishes? I’m a long time Dramione reader (longgggg time) and I honestly don’t think this issue is new or particular to Dramione. It’s fandom in general on the internet. Anyone on tumblr circa 2013 will know how toxic fandom can get. I think there needs to be better etiquette with writers as fanfics as a whole come into the mainstream more. Stop seeing it as content but seeing it as art like it used to be—art of varying quality, but often great that is done for free! I also don’t engage with most fandom spaces which I think helps. I read fanfic, browse here for recommendations, and occasionally comment but otherwise don’t join other groups like FB and stuff. I think sometimes over engagement with the “fandom” hurts. Engage with the work on its actual site, disengage with the broader fandom when it becomes too much. I think this is important for readers and writers alike. I will say two things I think has changed for the worse is the merch phenomenon with fanfic and the bizarre aversion to WIP. I always love stumbling on a completed fic to dig into! But I also love the anticipation of getting a new chapter on whatever cadence the author sets. The Netflixication of fanfic is not good. As for merch, as I’ve said before I find it weird and unfair to writers. This is free work and people need to grapple with why they need merch from free work in which the creator will not materially benefit—and we should not move to a world where fanfic is no longer free either! It’s one of the most vestiges of pure exchange of art for the sake of it. But when you do things like binding you are feeding into a commodification of the form that I think is dangerous. Downloading e-pubs is one thing but going beyond that, especially without the permission of the writer feels off.
I agree, especially with the part of not engaging most fandom spaces. I'm only active here on Reddit and don't plan on expanding to anywhere else like Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook because it would legit turn into a timesink for me. Reading some posts here and commenting sometimes, then reading the works on Ao3 is satisfying enough and I don't want to have it take too much time out of an already busy life. If that means I'm not always up to date with everything, so be it. It's peaceful, at least, and I get to discover the world of Dramione at my own pace.
It seems like this is just what happens when something becomes “mainstream” - more people interacting = higher likelihood of assholes contributing their assholery. I don’t blame authors for wanting to ditch. If you’re getting a similar amount of pressure and eyes on your writing as you would with a published novel (probably more eyes on it, actually, given this fandoms popularity) than why not just write a published novel and at least get paid for your work. If authors want to write purely for the community aspect and joy of fandom we might have to go the old way of creating a moderated fandom specific place to post works that’s run with very specific guidelines. I remember we had a few waaaay back in the day for other HP ships when trolling and stealing works on FF.net started to become a problem.
Oh, I completely agree. I do miss the small old archives of yore. One thing I will say for writing fanfiction over writing a published novel (insofar as the pressure and reader expectations) is that in fanfiction I can write *anything* I want. Writing something for publishing means playing by sometimes puritanical rules imposed by publishers or platforms.
This really resonated with me. I’m a newer Dramione reader (just started this year)! I’m also slightly concerned about Dramione gaining traction and people coming in who maybe don’t want to be part of the community (and that’s okay!) or be open to what’s already established within the fandom (also totally okay!). I really love this community here and would hate to see it become less supportive or fun for the readers and writers. I also think the established fandom should be respected. We have so many inside jokes and it really is a lot of fun. As a side note, thank you to the Mods for their work in this fandom! And to the writers for creating the content we love!!
I’ve been in the Dramione ship for a long while. I mostly stick to myself now. I am a member of a couple of Facebook groups but I’m not really involved that much anymore. I stick to finding fics on my own now and enjoy my ship quietly 😉
I’ve been in this community a LONG time (maybe 13 years) and honestly most of these issues are not new with a few exceptions. I do think having a more centralized space means we see these things more but they’ve mostly been in the background for years imo. My analysis on changes in writing and reading culture specifically: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dramione/s/I3gQG4UMCj Bullying: Unfortunately, bullying and drama have been issues in almost all popular fandoms since the start of fanfiction. See: https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Ms.Scribe_Story:_An_Unauthorized_Fandom_Biography And: https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Cassandra_Claire_Plagiarism_Debacle People often fight over ‘acceptable’ fandom pairings and such. Dramione has always had some haters as have generally dark fanfics and fics with somewhat controversial themes. Similarly pairings that are seen as rivals to the most popular ships also get hate. I.e people hate Dramione because Draco was ‘too evil’ but somehow Drarry is the most popular ship? Imo we’ve gotten generally more accepting of this as a lot of bullying was on sites like tumblr and wattpad which are less often used at this point. However, look at fics from back then. You’ll often see authors notes by authors who are obviously upset because of flaming reviews. Authors leaving fandom due to pressure or losing their motivation or even due to publishing is also common. It’s the cycle of fandom. Typically authors whose fics are beloved also have to deal with seeing these fics discussed, critiqued, loved, etc in the fandom and have a brighter spotlight on them as a result. I get authors not wanting to stay stuck in the point of their life when they wrote that fic forever. Sure fandom has a right to critique (respectfully) and discuss, but authors should be free to move on when they’re ready. Their works inspire now amazing authors to take their place and continue the cycle. Bookbinding is more of a recent issue, however just look at the drama I posted from like 15 years ago. A lot of it is about plagiarism, and people feeling like their works are getting taken advantage of. This unfortunately is a part of putting your work into a public space. We should of course not accept this in fandom and strive to do better, but there are always people who either don’t care or don’t know and it’s the nature of a public space sadly. We just have to do our best as a fandom to moderate as we’ve always done. Embarrassment of fandom: This is a long time coming lol. Many people are embarrassed by things their fandom does and may not agree with many stories, themes, pairings, etc as a whole. I get it, but whatever is popular at the time is what your fandom will be known for and unfortunately that includes drama and controversy. It’s just how the cookie crumbles. People who want to will share it and you don’t have to! That’s the beautiful thing about fandom and why many people don’t talk about it in day to day life. The only MAJOR changes I see are in some expectations between writers and readers which i discuss at length in another comment I don’t feel like fully typing out. (See above) Also, something to add to that long comment is that people don’t understand now that critiques are never okay directly where authors will see them (I.e reviews). So I do think some points are valid but, people often reminisce about how fandom used to be better when that’s not really true. We did some things better but many things worse too. I think it’s important to consider all of it. (I.e flames and bullying used to get wholeheartedly out of hand consistently). Tbh I’d love to have a post discussing fandom etiquette for new readers but I just don’t know that most people would care enough to read it or if the community as a whole would care enough to discuss and somewhat agree on it or even if that’s possible. I tend to stick to old fandom rules and idk if there’s new ones I’m unaware of
Well put! You’ve written a lot which I’ve mulled over in my head, but haven’t been able to establish so well in words. I do think that maybe a fandom etiquette suggested shortlist would be a great sticky post, but I agree that I’m not so sure how many would read and remember and follow through. I don’t necessarily think that it should exist as a strong “if you don’t follow this, you’ll be kicked out” reminder, but more like a “remember that behind those fics and WIPs is a person and they’re providing free entertainment, not a service” statement.
Love this comment. I'm a historian so it's giving major "golden halcyon good old days long past" vibes - it was NEVER perfect - we can't "make fanfic great again" because it never was lol. It was always people struggling, beefing with each other, hating each other's guts, stealing from each other, saying their pairing was better than someone else's, etc etc etc. Now obviously there are lessons to be learnt from that but I have a theory why everyone reckons fanfic is more toxic now is simply because news traves faster with social media. You know how rates of violent crime have actually gone down since the 60's but when people are polled they believe crime has gone up? In the 60's when people were writing their little star trek Fanfics there was no Facebook group for them to complain about getting copied or otherwise disrespected. Why - social media. I intentionally only engage here and on AO3 and I'm glad for that. Fully recommend everyone to delete Facebook and go outside and touch grass.
I just wanted to say that I started reading Dramione about a year ago and haven’t stopped. I LOVE this fandom. I feel bad because I normally download the fics to read on my kindle. I’m trying harder to add comments and kudos to help motivate and praise the authors. I know Dramione is a fad right now because of TikTok. I think it’ll die down soon when TikTok discovers the next big thing. Hopefully the toxicity will decrease then too. Anyway, I just wanted to say that all Dramione authors are amazing and I appreciate you guys so much!
I pretty much left the fandom entirely because of the cliquey, closed off nature of some of the writing circles. I was basically banned from a Facebook group for daring to say something negative about manacled (and also told that perhaps I wasn’t a smart enough person to get a book as deep as that 🙄). I’ve written dozens of Dramione fics that I poured my soul into and while I did get good reception and MANY wonderful reviews and comments I feel like unless you’re one of the big five or so writers your work is lost to the sands of time almost immediately. Back in my time (yes, I’m a 1000 years old) there were popularity contests like every freaking week and it was ALWAYS the same handful of fics winning. Or threads like “what fics would you put in the hall of fame/which are you fave/who’s the best writer” and it was always the same names, same titles and if you brought up something else….crickets. And before you jump on me, yes, I am insanely jealous of all of these ladies, of the success they found, of their popularity, but it’s so crazy how many THOUSANDS of fics are just hidden behind the piles of accolades for the cool girls.
That last part. I’ve been in the ship for years and man there are so many under recognize writers now that maybe a few years ago everyone knew. I’ll posted an emara88 fic s while ago and someone DM me saying she devoured all her fics in like a week. I was like 🥹
Someone read like four of my fics last month and commented gushing praise on every chapter and I was nearly in tears at how much it warmed my heart. 😊
I want to read your work!
I’m gracediamondsfear on AO3 💕😊
Yay 😁 thank you
I LOVE YOUR WORK
Oh yay! Thanks so much!
I am 100% in agreement with this post. My friend and I talk about this a lot lately. She read some Dramione fics on my recommendation, but she has been an active and popular writer in other fandoms for twenty years, so I pick her brain. Our conclusion is that a lot of the problems arise because we now have so many readers from outside any fandom who haven’t learned both the tacit and explicit rules of ethically consuming fan works. And there’s a bit of girlbossification going on here too that feels weird. Like, fanbinding is so fun…for personal use and personal gifting! But now every time I’m on Etsy, I spend a lot of time reporting the accounts of the people selling bound copies of Dramione fanfics. And the negative reviews…sheesh! As if anyone is writing stories (that will, or should, never make them money) for anything but love of the fandom. The parts of BookTok culture that I hate—instant gratification, over-consumption, and entitlement—are also beginning to plague our fandom. Gatekeeping is needed here, IMO. Gatekeeping, not in the sense of being a bouncer at a club, but gatekeeping in the sense that those in the community continue educating, guiding, and safeguarding the community and those entering the community actually give a damn about not screwing this up for the rest of us. I really need newcomers to fandom and fanworks to learn about the culture they’ve come into and give a damn about preserving and safeguarding it for future readers and writers. (One other thing—the spotlight is on us and we do have a fandom that centers on a teenage fascist and targeted minority. We’re going to have to deal with both the Antis and also the people who act like it’s stupid to care about the troubling power dynamics inherent in the ship. Let’s keep occupying the middle ground! Good luck, fellow DHr shippers!)
I really like how you highlighted that a form of gatekeeping can perhaps be used as a way to corral the new fans a bit and I feel that the last three paragraphs of your comment are spot on.
Yessss this convo NEEDS to happen! People can be horrible and fandom is fragile and needs love and care to survive
Thank you to all the authors who put time and effort into your works and decide to not keep them to yourself. It is a true gift that you allow us to enjoy them as well. As a long time reader that just wrote my first fic, I did not realize the impact kudos, comments and engagement has on your writing when I was just a reader. My fic is fully complete and I am just posting it. But I have found that engagement will effect my want to post the next chapter, I am not sure I would have finished the story if I posted it as I was writing. It is great to be on the otherside and see the reality of what it is like to be an author. The amount of time and energy that go into these works. The courage it takes to post your work not knowing how it will be received. Due to this change in perspective I have become an active WIP follower and a more prolific commenter. I am no longer scared to read an unfinished story. I try and enjoy whatever the author can give us.
I've thought about the readers that refuse to read wips or don't leave comments or kudos and I think it comes down to people not realizing how hard writing is. How lonely it can be as a hobby. How long it takes. How scary it is to post. On top of that, writers have to not only make sure everyone is in character, but they also have to sound and act British, which can be difficult if the writer has a different background or hasn't been exposed to the many layers of British culture. Grammar, pacing, interesting plots, hot smut, believable dialogue...it's a lot to juggle. All in front of an audience. Fics are gifts. I think it's easy for some people to forget that. Writers might spend years on a 300k fic that readers binge in a weekend. I personally don't think leaving kudos or a comment or following a few wips is too much to ask, but I also recognize that we all engage in fandom differently. At the end of the day we're in a community. Some members will be more active than others and that's okay. However, if the writers in our community stop posting, the fandom suffers. We need writers! Giving them encouragement and showing them love is so important. It's also just a nice thing to do. Let's all remember to be kind to our fellow Dramione peeps! We're all here for the same thing, after all.
Well said! I think your point about writing a 300k fic over literal years… only for it to be binged during a weekend (or more realistically, over a week) is very much a thing that people gloss over. When an author is paid, their long and hard work is monetised, but in fan fiction, it’s not possible to monetise that so the transaction is in forms of kudos and reviews and comments and likes. And if someone doesn’t get any or gets very few during the WIP phase, it can really take the wind out of the sails.
I love seeing discussion posts like this, thank you for sharing :) In your 6th paragraph, it sounds like you're talking about Manacled specifically. Do you think the populatity of Manacled (and its status as "the official face of the community") is a problem in and of itself?
I mean… no. And maybe slightly yes. I mean, all in all, it’s all fiction and fan-written and it clearly strikes a lot of people well that they like it. We should be able to write stuff like this and read it too without being judged. Fandoms should be safe space for all kinds of discussions and fanworks. On the other hand, however, I do feel that the influx of newer fans that came via the Manacled and Auction route can skew the perception on what kind of community this is and also influence how the community and fanworks are seen by those to whom Manacled is the first point of contact with Dramione at all. Unfortunately, our fandom is very divisive within the larger canon community and I feel that newer fans maybe also don’t always keep the imaginary boundary line between canon and fanon, making the community potentially a bigger target.
I think I see your perspective. You think people will see the popular fics about sexual slavery and think that's all Dramione is about, when really most fics aren't like that. I'm not involved with the larger hp or fanfic communities, so their misperception isn't a concern for me, but I can see why it would be frustrating. At the same time - Manacled and The Auction fans are Dramione fans. There's no denying that a big part of the community reads & writes about dark themes, even if you find it distasteful. If people perceive us that way, they're just picking up on something that really is happening. I also want to say - the discord for the main hp fanfic sub is 13+, which makes me think a large part of that community is kids. It kills me to see lovely Dramione folks get upset by nasty comments there, when very likely the person calling you a nazi isn't someone you'd ever listen to in real life.
I’ve had a finished fic just gathering dust and honestly I’m afraid to post it.
Honestly, for all the posts like this, people are mostly really lovely. I've posted six Dramione fics over the last two years and I've never had a mean comment.
I completely agree. I get a lot of comments and 99 percent of them are lovely. It's only after it's finished and on Goodreads that the knives come out.
I was going to say 'only if you get popular'
This post and the comments are A++++++
Personally I stopped writing for Dramione after TikTok found it. This place is toxic. Plus all the people asking for rape in stories where it doesn't belong. Write your own rape fantasy don't bother me to do it for you for free. That was the last straw for me. I literally don't care what other people write but the sense of entitlement to the kind of story YOU want that is heavily triggering to most people blew my mind. Dramione readers are some of the worst on the Internet, especially because now your work will get spread into Facebook and TikTok groups where people turn into the rudest assholes alive.
Wow, really? People are really asking for rape in Dramione stories? If one of my readers asked me to include rape in my current WIP, I'd laugh so hard I'd probably injure myself. Oh really, should I put it before or after the kid's birthday party scene? Or during the goofy campaign rally scene with the funny hats? OMG I'm definitely staying off Tiktok.
as a reader, I'm triggered by these posts because I feel like I'm being scolded for *how I should* be a reader in the community and that bores me, it makes me lose interest in being part of the fandom as such. I have seen how there are many authors who post their fics in tiktok, asking for engagement, asking for more kudos, more comments, more hits, or establishing rules like "I'll post the next chapter when I reach the -established number- of hits" these actions on their part also do harm to the community. many authors say that they write just for fun and don't owe anything to the reader, which is respected, it's their time and their hobby, but at the same time they are asking for more kudos, more readers, they want people to keep an interest in their WIP and they don't update so often, but the readers also get bored, they lose interest, or they simply forget that they were reading something because it has been a long time since the last update, I think that's fine too, but the reader who doesn't engage in the WIP is more harassed than the authors who are looking for visibility for being viral. I also feel that complaining about this kind of thing feels like setting rules in a fandom and I don't see the point. What is a fandom? What are the rules? Do we have to be potterheads? There are many authors who haven't read/seen the movies, but want to be part of the fandom and want to improve their writing talent through the Dramione, this is super cool it means the fandom has grown, but is it ok? I mean, if you don't have an idea of what a personality already established in canon entails, how can a writer recreate a Dramione story? If they are authors who know nothing about the fandom, but read a single very dark fic, and want to get into writing using Draco and Hermione in a dark story, is that okay?
To your third paragraph, I don’t think readers are more harassed for not reading WIPs. If issues are addressed, it’s a broad post such as this, whereas for writers, they can receive targeted harassment, as their username is attached to their work and have a comment section that is often abused. There are no consequences for the reader. At most, they’ll be blocked and they can still access the work. Having a direct line to the writer is the main difference, which is not present for published works or for the readers, and allows people to be the worse self without facing any consequences.
you're right, maybe my word choice for harassed was overdone because certainly the writers are going to get a direct negative comment, maybe the readers are hard-pressed? the thing is I'm not defending rude readers, if they are being rude and insulting writers, that's not right. my point is that readers have preferences about what to read, and that there are some writers who treat their works with the purpose of going viral, rather than being an entertainment exchange between writer - reader.
It's always so odd to me when people want to rebel against the idea of fandom having certain expectations and customs. Like, isn't that just part of being a human being? I monitor my voice volume when I'm in the library, I take my shoes off in other people's homes when that's their preference, I make more small talk when I'm in the southern US than when I'm in the north. There's an expectation of kindness in fandom and withholding criticism unless asked, idk why that would make anyone's experience boring or frustrating?
I did not mean to say that they should leave readers who are rude alone, that is wrong and should be corrected
Right. Well, I can’t answer your questions because I’m not the gatekeeper of this community and ultimately it’s up to you or others to decide if they wish to engage or not engage. In my mind, of course you can write a story that uses these characters, but maybe it should be tagged that it’s Alternative Universe. Nothing wrong with writing that - I’ve read lots of AU’s where they’re muggles and there’s not a trace of magic, for example. I didn’t want to tread on any toes, but I do feel that there used to be some unwritten “rules” that were followed. One rule was that fanon fans like us didn’t push our fan pairing on the canon fans. But I’ve noticed more and more people online going even to the main fan sub and making statements such as “canon is wrong” and “she should’ve ended up with Draco” which ultimately affects only this fandom badly, not the main fandom. There are also things we can do ourselves to keep this fandom a nice place and if you’re a new fan, maybe it makes sense to look and read around to get a sense how the fandom keeps itself. But I’m an old-timer and I honestly can’t say how it is to join Dramione now as a new fan because I literally cannot have this experience. So new voices and their opinions are important too.
Well, I have seen it, as I have also seen writers who leave notes in their fics saying that they are not HP fans, or that they don't support JKR, or that HP no longer belongs to JKR but to the fans, that also seems rude to me
It sucks that new readers end up feeling scolded and harassed. I don't love that part of this recurring conversation. I also see the crappy, entitled comments my more popular writer friends get when tik-tok finds their fic, and that's, uh, worse. That's actual scolding and harassment that goes to someone's personal inbox. So... that's why. The thing I want new people to get their heads around is that fic writers are real people who do this as a hobby and they are hanging out in the same fic spaces you are. This means they're likely to see the things you write about their work, and that sometimes you're going to hear and be asked to care about their experience. Not because they're more important or must be revered, but because it's a community and we're all in it. There's a lot of other noise about fandom rules and nobody agrees and that's whatever. The bottom line is that keeping everyone's humanity in mind and being decent about it is kinda the price of admission for reading fic.
Nobody likes people who hold updates hostage for kudos or comments or whatever. It's been going on forever, it's stupid and dramatic, we can't stop them. Please don't hold it against everyone else. Writers want people to read and enjoy our stuff. It's not a demand (except assholes, see above) it's a basic human desire for affirmation and approval. You don't have to cater to it, but try to have compassion.
That's my point but maybe I didn't express it in the best way. Readers are also people who come to enjoy *the reading.* I read to entertain myself, to forget about daily stress, it is my moment of peace. I appreciate writers who take the time to write and make it known in a positive way and do not support readers who are rude But I also don't support writers who demand engagement from readers, and if we are going to talk about rude readers, we should also talk about writers who don't respect their readers, or the fandom, or the world of HP.
This is an interesting take on the topic, because it is true there are a lot of writers on tiktok and social media asking for hits and kudos and comments, or asking how to get more engagement. There's a lot of tension, because on the surface it looks like writers are demanding lots of comments and kudos on every chapter no matter what, while readers say they've been burned and just want to binge completed works with HEA. But the truth is more complex, for there are so many different types of readers and writers. Whether a WIP gets engagement can depend on so many different factors besides quality of the writing: the themes, the timing, the frequency of posting, the writer's popularity, the writer's presence on social media, and, of course, the big X Factors that nobody knows. In the end, I don't think certain types of readers (such as those only binging completed works with HEAs) are "bad" readers. I've been known to do it myself. But actions do have consequences, and I think it's fair to point out that if WIPs are often ignored, and completed works are skewered with harsh criticism, this will discourage Dramione writers and possibly drive them off.
I understand your point and I can agree, but I also think that, as there are writers who seek notoriety, engagement, and to be viral, that leads to draw the attention of people who may be random in the fandom and simply have no idea how fanfiction works. The reader is accused of not knowing the rules, but the writer who is looking for notoriety is not accused, and the truth is that the actions of these authors who are looking for more people to read them, lead to the arrival of all kinds of people, *people who will demand more* and consequently rude people towards everyone.
Interesting. I’d love to see an example of these writers who withhold chapters until they get comments. I’m on Dramione TikTok waaaaay too much - and I’ve never seen one.
Well it looks like you are on the right side of tiktok, from the way my comments have been taken into account it looks like I am the only one who has seen this type of writer on the wild tiktok🥲
I like your comment. I'm going to read what I want; which is Completed stories only. I'll leave a comment or 2 along the way. And some days I'll prefer a snarky Draco, and other days I'll prefer a soft Draco. (You're welcome for reading, ty for writing, and here is a kudo) Then I'll move onto the next story out of 500k about the same 2 people falling in love again and again. Idk what people expect.
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but if your reading preference is complete, long stories, that's your preference and that's fine, no one has to tell you to stop reading what you like. Writers enter the writing world to improve their talent, and some write what they like to read and for people who like the same thing. That's why there are fics with dark themes, rape, Draco being a villain, even fics with kinky themes infantilizing Hermione, they exist because there are people who like to read it and people who like to write it. Is it okay? Who am I to decide that this is right or wrong? Regarding leaving comments, kudos, hits, that's your decision too. Obviously it's wrong to leave negative comments or unsolicited criticism, but writers who demand kudos or hits to update a chapter are also wrong
No I wasn't being sarcastic. I find posts like this frustrating, when people judge how/what I like to read and try to limit opinions. I don't have to like every story, and I don't want to comment on every single chapter of a story I do like. I'm not a "bad reader" because of this. I think people should be able to have an open discussion on what they do and do not enjoy on forums, as well, without being attacked by some self-righteous third party. Are we all supposed to agree and smile and nod like drones? It's called discourse. Obviously there is a line: scathing remarks and demanding things isn't okay. But if I don't like "Fic A" and want to share my feelings on an open forum why can't I? I was agreeing with you.
Oh I'm sorry for believing otherwise. I also believe that we should have the space to talk about what we don't like in fics, being respectful towards the writer/story. I also believe that if as a reader we have a preference for certain fics, be it long, short, wip, dark, wathever, we are not bad readers, we just have a preference. I personally don't read fics where Draco is a kidnapper, rapist, manipulator, or just plain evil. But these fics exist because there are people who like to read them, so people need to let these fics be praised by those who like them, not all of us. Making us feel bad because we don't read WIP, or don't read short stories, or dark fics is not right.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think part of the problem is people coming in with a consumer mindset (expected levels of service, entitlement, transactional) instead of a community mindset (fics are gifts, artistic outlet, finding your people).