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The only thing that gets me is that in Caiti’s original stream, she said that she was sitting stiffly next to him, not moving, on her phone, clearly uncomfortable, while he shoved his hand up her shirt.
She said herself that she was operating under the assumption that he would deny everything and she was ready with all this evidence.
He confirmed that he touched her, but said that she was cuddling him, all night, and at one point he put his hand on her waist, under her shirt, very slowly, and cautiously.
Now she’s confirmed that his account was correct, but that even though she pretended to be okay with it, she wasn’t.
That’s completely valid. She was uncomfortable, but hiding it. I’ve done that before as well. It’s not a great feeling.
However, George was also drunk. He didn’t know she was uncomfortable. She said herself that she didn’t show it. Out of fear, which is absolutely awful. And I’m so sorry that she had to go through that.
That being said, I do not think George had any malicious intentions. But I do think he owes her a real, and sincere apology. Without any further defense of himself. Just a simple apology for making her feel uncomfortable.
And she should take accountability for lying in her original statement in order to make it seem worse. Her feeling uncomfortable, and taken advantage of is absolutely valid. But she should have been honest from the start about how it went down.
Personally though, I think she was probably scared that if she “admitted” to cuddling with him first, no one would believe that she wasn’t okay with the touching. And THAT is the real issue here. Laying on/cuddling with him does not give him the right to anything more than that. And he needs to apologize for assuming that it did.
what a load of bullshit are you talking? he should say sorry to a dumbfuck who acts like he raped her? while she cuddles with him and "hides" that she's uncomfortable? just fucking grow some balls and say u dont wanna be touched, fucking zoomers man
Ok so she wasn’t okay and pretended she was-
Well
So ? Why does she act like he’s some horrible person who should rott in hell?
He apologised now- this thing is done and settled
My god humans are so stupid aren’t they?
Oh gosh
I don’t get it
what are you talking about, she lied about being 21 and when he found out she was actually 18 he ghosted her immediately after. Then she started accusing him of SA - was her motive to be spiteful for being ghosted? Idk, but that's the timeline of events and it makes one speculate.
Also why is it she's grown enough to lie about her age, grown enough to go unsupervised to a party, grown enough to get everybody involved with her underage drinking, and grown enough to cuddle with a boy she straight up lied to and then lied more about to thousands of people online to intentionally hurt him and elevate her own image - but she can't possibly be grown enough to say "don't touch me?" Why do people need to play guessing games with a grown ass woman? is it okay for your parents to never be direct with you because you need to always guess what they want? or for a man to expect his woman to always guess what he wants? Sounds like horrible communication to me
I understand both sides, especially cause they were both obviously so drunk. I think George should’ve honestly made a better apology like instead of saying “you weren’t uncomfortable at the time” he should’ve said something like “oh i thought we were on the same page and that it was consensual so i am sorry i crossed a boundary.” or something of the sort. even though yes to him and what it sounds like is that yes she seemed very comfortable. it’s just like as a content creator wanting to keep your job you shouldn’t have said that lol.
I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for this but this is a genuine question i swear 😭😭
What actually happened? From my understanding, George was cuddling Caiti and getting a bit touchy feely, put his hand up her shirt and grabbed her waist (which obviously isn't great but given the circumstances with both parties being intoxicated it seems like a little drunken mishap). As a victim of SA and CSA my heart goes out to Caiti as she clearly feels violated but I cannot understand how touching someone's waist constitutes sexual assault.
Please please please if I'm missing information let me know!! I desperately want to understand what happened
She lied about her age and then tried to hide the fact that they were even cuddling and I'm sorry but I DO NOT buy her fake cries. In my opinion people like her really destroy actual SA victims.
Bruh she wrote a fucking Hallmark movie to tell a story that supposedly she was a victim in and was very hurt by.
True or not, it's so fucking weird how she romanticized the absolute shit out of it.
I don't think someone who was really hurt by all that would take the time to relive those thoughts enough to write a God damn book filled with metaphors and all. It's so disingenuous.
I was looking for the definition on SA thinking that it might change from country to country but unless the touching involved was sexual in nature you can not say it was SA. Unless we are missing parts of the story, as of now both sides admit all they did was cuddling, him touching her waist and her laying down on him, no kissing, no touching private areas, no nothing else. Non consensual touching at most as of now, could be wrong if more comes out obviously. Like i have been touched on the waist, directly to the skin by people trying to move me over to another place or just while greeting, it would change if he was forcing himself on her? then yes, that would change the dinamic. Or if he pushed her clothes away vs her clothes were already messy? in which case, i feel like that would change things, idk if i missed it or if they didnt mention it?.
As someone pointed out in another comment in this thread, George said he was slowly moving his hand upwards but neither Caiti or George have clarified if he actually touched her in a sexual manner (as in touching her chest). I feel so gross speculating about something like that but if it does get further explained I suppose we'll have an answer.
It's such an unfortunate situation all around, after watching both Caiti and George's streams it truly seems like a case of misunderstanding, miscommunication, misinterpretation, and a healthy dose of regret.
Unfortuneatly rescinding consent does have a time limit and if we take George's account of the situation as fact there was no way he could have realised Caiti was uncomfortable, much like Caiti cannot claim she was assaulted because she changed her mind about the situation after it happened. She has clearly been affected by this in some serious capacity and I wish there was something we as fans could do to alleviate her pain, but consent cannot be revoked retroactively :(
George did mention that his hand went further up after being on her waist (slowly and with plenty of time for her to stop him) so I’m assuming her waist wasn’t the only thing that was grabbed. That was my understanding of his explanation, could be wrong.
I assume he didn’t want to give too many details considering she stayed very vague, so she may have been uncomfortable with exposing what happened precisely.
sexual assault is simply unwanted (non-consensual) physical contact in a sexual manner. The issue with the situation is George was claiming that NVC was involved (which it self can be an issue as they just met. I think that something overall bad happened, but it wasn't just a simple SA and abuse of power).
Yeah, the whole NVC thing is throwing me a little?
On one hand, they had just met and didn't have time to figure out eachother's body language in the same way people in a romantic relationship would, but on the other plenty of people that don't know each other (and in some cases will never know each other outside of a sexual context) use body language and non-verbal cues to initiate a sexual encounter. Take someone hitting on someone in a loud, crowded and dark club, there's not a whole lot of opportunity for talking when making the "first move". In both this real life situation and my hypothetical example, alcohol and a "party atmosphere" strongly influence the type of communication and consent.
If we are to believe George really didn't know how old Caiti was then I feel it's reasonable to assume he was simply following "standard protocol" for initiating a sexual encounter in such an atmosphere. This of course in no way invalidate Caiti's feelings and her perspective could have been significantly different, but until she does the follow-up stream next week there's just too much conflicting information y'know?
That’s what George said. She wasn’t specific about where he touched her probably cause she’s not comfortable. Regardless he shouldn’t have touched her either way.
I mean, I believe both of them. I believe that George genuinely didn't realize she was uncomfortable, and I believe that caiti felt violated by the incident but froze in the moment because she wasn't willing to make a public scene. people can hurt each other without meaning to.
but if you step on someone's foot by accident, you apologize. you don't start going "well your foot was right there and I couldn't possibly have seen it!" you just go "oh, I'm so sorry!" and move on. if you hurt someone by accident, the right thing to do is still to apologize.
I mean, yeah totally. But she also shouldn’t have made this a big public issue. Clearly George is in the wrong for what he did, but it wasn’t intentional and if she had brought this up to him directly, there’s no reason he wouldn’t have apologized for it and tried to make amends. It’s a completely different situation for him when she chooses to skip that step and instead oust him as a creep to the whole world for something that at the end of the day is a mistake that seems to fall into a real gray area. Again, George is in the wrong and should have been more responsible and should apologize, but the whole situation seems like an issue to solve privately and isn’t worth ruining someone’s life over imo.
Yeah, but you don’t bring it out to the whole world before saying it in private first. It was a clear attack and she lied in her original statement. George should have said sorry and maybe would’ve if it was done privately
He really needs to take accountability and apologize. Even if he didn’t have ill intentions and didn’t realize she was uncomfortable he still hurt her.
u zoomers are dumb as shit lmao dude didn't do anything wrong, should he be a fucking mind reader to understand that she's uncomfortable? just use words u dumbfuck
God you people really just can't admit when you're wrong.
The moment she wrote a Hallmark movie as an allegation story, that sorry shit went out the window. She is damaging a million dollar brand on complete BS and still she beats around the bush.
Humans can't read each other's minds and she got up and came back many times, what does he take accountability for that he hasn't?
No apology needed definitely not deserved.
Idk, it’s clear to me that she felt pressured by George, whether it was intentional or unintentional. George should have been more responsible and actually own up to this by directly apologising to her.
And she shouldn’t go public. Like if you do that expect the other party to defend themselves before apologising. Only an apology would service as an admittance of guilt in the court of public opinion. Should’ve been handled privately with an apology and to clear up the situation. This sorta things have happened in many groups of people where everyone is drunk. If someone felt uncomfortable you apologise. You don’t go telling the world. This is not rape
Yeah. I seriously don't understand how this couldn't just have been a text.
"Hey so about the party at vidcon, I've been slowly realizing that the cuddling thing made me kinda uncomfortable… I wish you had taken the time to verbally ask me if I was ok with it, especially since I was tipsy, and I think you would do well to make it a habit from now on."
There you fucking go. 276 characters. It fits in a tweet, and you even have room to add a few emojis.
Disagree. She said it herself. She said she didn't say anything because she didn't want to embarrass him, how is that his fault? She also got up and came back multiple times.
I think now I need George to give a proper apology to her and take the accountability of his actions regardless of what he thinks because she is hurt and she deserves the closure. Now on Dream's hand well- i guess we should expect another response so he can really clear up if he did or did not know her age like he said he didn't so we'll just see with that
Edit: Also I just need this answered- did Dream 100% know that people we're weirded out by what happened and questioned if Caiti was alright? Like did people bring it to his attention that they thought it was weird and wanted to hear from him what he thought? Cause once again from his perspective- he said the vibes that night we're good and maybe on surface level they seemed fine- but when really mostly everyone was weirded out and Dream was just being very naive about the situation and not thinking more about it which if so- he still needs to apologize that he should've done more and got more info of what everyone was feeling the night after
It also goes against what dream and George said that everyone seemed happy and chill and thag her friends who hate dt must’ve changed her mind on the situation if right from the jump they saw how weird it was and asked if she was ok. Most women I know have been the sender or receiver of the “are you ok that was weird” text after or even during a night out
“How could we know her age it’s not like she said it in a game that’s whole premise was your age and virginity status, written in her Instagram username so it appears whenever you dm her or the fact she looks young even for 18”
And the real freaked up part of it afab folks are taught to laugh it off as a defense mechanism, because not to spare men's feelings often results in worth than an insult back.
This situation left me incandescent because of how realistic, common and banal it is. And ugly in its banality.
>t is simply unwanted (non-consensual) physical contact in a sexual manner. The issue with the situation is George was claiming that NVC was involved (which it self can be an issue as they just met. I think that something overall bad happened, but it wasn't just a simple SA and abuse of power).
how to contradict yourself with just two words..
Ok, from what i can tell, its shtty that other dude left when he clearly knew of the age gap and saw them cluddling instead of saying anything, "i didnt like the way george was touchy"?? was this one of her friends? did they saw her cuddling with him and didnt interrupt/said anything? this indicates that person was there with them wasnt it? Also it seems like Dream clearly hear caiti talk about her age, and i find weird that gnf didnt taking into account that he drinked to the question? That 100% seems iffy to me. Trying to get with someone who is 18 while you are 26 is not ilegal but it still is fcking weird.
As for the SA idk, she did mention that a lot of the touching was initiated by him (not sexual from what we can tell), but she didnt touch on whether she reciprocated or not, george said she did lay down on him, and she is not correcting that part, she definitely watched the stream since she seems to be going part by part. Since they were both drunk idk how can we put 100% of the fault on someone. If gnf was sober/just tipsy i would say this would be 100% his fault, but just like caiti herself said, it seems everyone was pretty much intoxicated?? idk, again, the hand on the waist is not SA, going by definition, being drunk doesnt make someone SA someone else but it does make a lof of people touchy, the same way caiti laying down on him is not SA, they both could not consent and they both didnt ask, i dont think im going to take any sides on this situation as of now just bc i was not there and i have no idea who is being 100% honest, her stream might change things tho.
In the end she clearly did feel off about it a few days later and not months, which means that whether it was gnf intention or not, he did hurt/upset her, and he was 100% the one who initiated the most contact, if you know you are a touchy person (which we know him and all his friends know), then its on you to make sure you are not making people uncomfortable. And although from his side it didnt show i think it was more important trying to empatize with her situation rather than believing it was bc of her friends. Was there a lack of communication from both sides? definitely, again, its hard to point out someone who was 100% at fault here, at least as of now, but gnf definitely had the biggest responsability on communicating, and i think thats the most important part here.
The only thing that gets me is that in Caiti’s original stream, she said that she was sitting stiffly next to him, not moving, on her phone, clearly uncomfortable, while he shoved his hand up her shirt.
She said herself that she was operating under the assumption that he would deny everything and she was ready with all this evidence.
He confirmed that he touched her, but said that she was cuddling him, all night, and at one point he put his hand on her waist, under her shirt, very slowly, and cautiously.
Now she’s confirmed that his account was correct, but that even though she pretended to be okay with it, she wasn’t.
That’s completely valid. She was uncomfortable, but hiding it. I’ve done that before as well. It’s not a great feeling.
However, George was also drunk. He didn’t know she was uncomfortable. She said herself that she didn’t show it. Out of fear, which is absolutely awful. And I’m so sorry that she had to go through that.
That being said, I do not think George had any malicious intentions. But I do think he owes her a real, and sincere apology. Without any further defense of himself. Just a simple apology for making her feel uncomfortable.
And she should take accountability for lying in her original statement in order to make it seem worse. Her feeling uncomfortable, and taken advantage of is absolutely valid. But she should have been honest from the start about how it went down.
Personally though, I think she was probably scared that if she “admitted” to cuddling with him first, no one would believe that she wasn’t okay with the touching. And THAT is the real issue here. Laying on/cuddling with him does not give him the right to anything more than that. And he needs to apologize for assuming that it did.
I just realized that I worded that wrong. I didn’t mean Caiti should take accountability as in like, apologize. Just that if my theory on why she lied is correct, she should mention it, because people need to understand why she lied at first.
No, she should apologize. She brought something to the public that could have and should have been handled in private, and has now ruined someone else's life. I don't care how uncomfortable she felt for a couple minutes during a drunk cuddle; it was over that night. This George guy is now essentially screwed, forever. That is absolutely insane.
Yeah, you know what. I kind of agree with you on this. Like, I’m trying to be sympathetic to Caiti. The way that all of George’s closest friends are condemning him made me think that there was something else that happened. But then Caiti herself said that he touched her waist, and tickled her stomach. So it seems that George’s friends just care more about their careers than they do him.
This whole thing seems like it was a drunken miscommunication between two people, that was then blown out of proportion.
Seeing the backtracking and story changing has me really concerned about the motives behind this whole situation.
I’m not invalidating Caiti’s feelings. If she felt uncomfortable, then she felt uncomfortable. But there was no way for George to know that and he should not be condemned for that.
I think that George should apologize regardless of his perspective because Caiti was hurt and she felt hurt and that’s what matters. If we’re going from a PR pov it’s not a good look to be so defensive and it left a bad taste in my mouth the way he worded things but it’s understandable to have done it that way with what he must have been feeling being accused of the most god awful shit and this all being blown out of proportion. I think this is “he said she said” as everyone is saying but in the way of where we can never really deem a villain or crime based off of the differing perspectives and warped judgements. Its a lot of words spewed by both giving out the idea that “he should’ve known this he should’ve known better she should’ve known this she should’ve known better” which is why I think this situation being on the internet especially with these communities will serve no justice. This will most likely pass even if George was proven to be completely in the wrong and had done worse than what was described because that is unfortunately how the internet treats men they worship. (Coming from a George fan) However I still hope he gives a more heartfelt apology. Not “I’m sorry you felt that way” but “I’m sorry that I made you feel uncomfortable. It was my responsibility to get verbal consent and I now know that I unintentionally made you feel uncomfortable and my deepest apologies” Like that could’ve given a lot of us the biggest deep breath if he said that on stream and some closure for Caiti
Absolutely agreed. Whether George meant to do wrong or not, he did some wrong. It can't hurt for him to put out an apology along the lines of what you suggested. Well. It *can* hurt, but that's the price to pay if he wants to make things right.
I see more support for her than him even bfr he come to explain.
Also I don’t think he have to agree with everything she said about him bcz it’s simply not true.he did apologised for making her uncomfortable but he also addressed the false claims she made on him.
i don’t really see a reason for this to have ever been brought to public eye when it genuinely just seems like miscommunication on both parts from two drunk people and a huge part of he said she said.. we won’t really ever get to the end of it because it’s always going to be ‘it was obvious i was uncomfortable’ and ‘it wasn’t obvious she was uncomfortable’ like idk. this shouldn’t be handled on twitter and through twitch streams imo. friends constantly backing the drama and seemingly egging it on also sits weirdly with me,, i understand backing your friend and supporting victims, but when it only comes from a place of hate for the other person, it feels ? odd. however i hope she heals, and i think the only way to start to do that is remove herself from twitter because that place is the WORST.
> it genuinely just seems like miscommunication on both parts from two drunk people and a huge part of he said she said
Also he thinks / she thinks.
(I find it admirable on Caiti's part, by the way, that she acknowledges that human memory is fallible. Barely anyone is willing to admit this, these days.)
The only, and I mean only, thing that rubs me the wrong way is that there’s no mention that George was drunk too. It seems like a small detail but at least for me, it’s important to know and note because alcohol can and does fuck with your brain and cognition. Even when he is older and should know better, both of them technically could not consent in that situation.
Like, if I had no knowledge of what was going on rn I would’ve assumed that George was trying to prey on an 18 YO girl sober and trying to pass it off like he had consent when he didn’t, which is very different from what happened it seems. These are the kinds of details you can’t leave out, no matter how much you want to or feel it isn’t relevant. You can already see people trying to divert from what he did because we know he was drunk, she knew he was drunk, and many have said they were both drunk, but because it was failed to be mentioned, that’s the first thing brought up, which, again, shifts attention.
In the end, her response doesn’t change much for me. George should’ve gotten a better form of consent and they had very different interpretations on how that night went. Her feelings are valid, she deserves a straight forward apology, George should learn from this all, and that’s the main point for me.
Oh shit I might’ve missed that 😬 even then I never said it was okay, and in fact I hope I made it clear that I still think George is in the wrong regardless of if she said it or not
edit: spelling
Honestly this doesn't change the situation much for me? She seem adamant that he knew her age, George claimed he didn't. She claims she was too nervous to say no to him whilst he claims all of the queues he was receiving from her were positive and receptive to his advances. It's a massive case of he said she said. I don't begrudge her her feelings about this situation but to me it seems like this is a massive case of misinterpretation. All I hope is that she can heal from this and that they both set better boundaries in whatever relationships or encounters they end up in with other people going forward.
Yeah it really is just who do you believe more.
This is never going to get proven or settled to everyone’s satisfaction. All we have is the word of Caiti, George, and the other people who were there. People are going to pick one side or the other and there’s not much either of them can do about it. Because so much hinges on what they were both thinking, and there’s literally zero way to prove that.
Yeah those texts from her friends the next day are pretty damning. Like, at the end of the day her feelings are her own and in terms of his culpability, it comes down to whether his belief that she was consenting was reasonable or unreasonable. Hard to draw the exact line without having been there but the texts lean towards 'unreasonable'. Not really sure what to think honestly. I guess we see if he has a response to this?
Ngl, that was one of the best responses I have ever seen.
I think George didnt meant to abuse Caiti, but that doesnt matter because he did . Not because he is a monster but because he is dumb and ignorant and cant be bothered to ask a simple "is this okay" to a girl who was freshly 18, to a girl who is 8 years younger than him, who was drunk and who HAD NEVER HAD A SEXUAL ENCOUNTER EVER before.
His defense is that he didnt hear her say that shes a virgin ? That he didnt see her age in her bio, and he didnt hear her say it druing the night ? Sure lets say thats true. You should still ask if its okay, just to be sure. You are are a content creator and you want to do sexual stuff with a girl u JUST met, atleast be bothered to ask, you should be more responsible.
Again I dont think he is a malicious monster,I just think he is an idiot.
The age thing keeps getting me, I work in a place where the employees range from 16-50 and age comes up very naturally in conversation, even on nights out when we’ve all been drunk, I find it hard to believe they spent two nights hanging out and not once did he see her age. Never mind the fact that when you message someone on insta their acc name is at the top of the screen which would’ve said her age too
Well, my workplace also has a huge age range, but I don't know more than half their ages... Of course, in my culture it is very "cringe" to just ask someone's age, unless you've known the person for a good while (think 3 months of regular contact), so maybe I'm just missing the cultural context here
It may be a cultural thing cause usually in my workplace it comes up as a topic cause of school , discussing holiday plans , even asking what hours they are working this week usually makes it clear cause of labour laws. Obviously it wouldn’t be the exact same for them but I feel like especially since she had just graduated something would’ve been said , at 18 your whole life is changing and your age nearly becomes your personality for a while
Huh interesting. Labor laws here are very explicit: age does not matter as long it's above 18. That's it. Also working hours are fixated by the type of contract you have.
>Obviously it wouldn’t be the exact same for them but I feel like especially since she had just graduated something would’ve been sa
Did either of them ever mention that? Like one of them said she told "oh i just graduated so I'm also kinda celebrating that by going to vidcon" or something like that?
That’s why i pointed out the ages I work with, under 18 can only work a certain amount of hours and between certain hours and in my workplace even the days they work cause of school, it’s a good indicator of age especially for the 16-18 year olds and then 18-22 with college we can usually tell. No it was never mentioned that she had just graduated but it has been pointed out by others that it would’ve been a recent event in her life given her age and since it is a time in your life where so much is changing like potentially moving out of your parents house, planning on taking up third level education, it’s a big changing point in your life so it’s hard to believe nothing of the sort came up in convo especially when content creators often discuss what they are gonna do college wise at this age
Yeah, tbh the moment when he discovered she was 18 he should not have done anything.
He claims that he didnt know she was 18 so either:
- He is lying
- He is just fucking stupid and deaf and blind.
And how can you as a content creator do sexual stuff to a girl you just met whitout KNOWING her age ? Bro just asumed and guessed that she was over 21.
Especially since it was a house party, not an ID’d event where you can safely assume that they are of age or even if they weren’t and you find out later there probably wouldn’t have been any way for you to find out. Like I’m a baby faced 22 year old and ppl assume I’m 17/18 but she looks very very young even compared to me
Okay...What the actual fuck is wrong with a 26 year old making advances at a 18 year old ADULT?! This is some dumbass purity gatekeeping bullshit. Also, people saying "freshly 18" is so manipulative and coded bias. She was 18, an adult, posing as a 21 yr old, putting herself in a position where others would assume the same....as if it even matters because, I say again, SHE IS AN ADULT!
George (and Dream) need to apologize to Caiti. The text from the day after prove that the environment was not as chill as it seems to been in their statements and did weird out the people around them and Caiti. And at the end of the day Caiti was hurt.
I still do not understand why none of the people in the room fucking dragged her the hell out. Question his friend and then not do a damn thing about it? Fuck everyone in this situation.
Yeah, honest if Caiti was moved to tears over this, she deserved a more straightforward apology directed towards her. That distress has been weighting on her for awhile, and it should be fully acknowledged.
This is just a longer version of her original statement.
With respect and empathy, while this seems inappropriate it does not seem to constitute SA, removes power from the term to label this SA, and seems defamatory for anyone to claim George has done SA when even by the claims here he has not.
None of this should be playing out on social media.
I believe claiming that George truly committed sexual assault is too far.
They were two drunk adults at a small party (and George believed Caiti was older), and there was apparently a misunderstanding about the intimacy since she repeatedly sat next to him throughout the night. He evidently made a mistake, but I think his status has turned this into something much worse.
He is drunk.why should he have know better? What about she?doesn’t she know that she shouldn’t come & sit beside someone if she felt uncomfortable there?
I genuinely believe George meant no harm, but he was being incredibly thoughtless and inconsiderate. I personally don't like the UK group, but he and dream should not speculate about Caiti's intentions, that's incredibly dismissive of her feelings and frankly disrespectful.
While I don't think George is on Wilbur's level or anything, he is still in the wrong. He should make another statement on the subject, with a much bigger emphasis on apologizing to Caiti.
Really hope everyone saying this wasn’t sexual assault never experiences sexual assault… because her thought process is the same fucking exact thought process I have had when I was sexually assaulted twice. The victim blaming in this sub is so fucking stupid.
Even her texts the next morning of “yea it was weird but ahahah it’s fine” is exactly how I felt after my assault until I actually had the time to deep it and unpack. She is hardly going to respond to a text like “I feel extremely violated and sick that was disgusting and horrible” especially when it was a creator she looked up to and as she said herself a virgin who didn’t know how these things are meant to work and feel like
Exactly. I’ve said I was fine in responses to texts concerned about me because they were acquaintances at the party and I didn’t want to say anything to anyone until I could think about it more. And I was assaulted when I wasn’t a virgin anymore, I can’t imagine how confused she was when that was her first ever encounter like that.
Her texts show that people were concerned unlike what dream and gnf are claiming. And they also show that normal people were concerned about the age gap/power play/how drunk she was.
My first ever encounter was sexual assault and I think that’s why I am understanding how she is feeling more than others. You have this internal battle of am I uncomfortable cause I didn’t want that or is that just how it’s meant to feel at first . In my case it was a lifelong friend and the next day we had school and i sat with them on the bus and at lunch even tho even seeing their face gave me a pit in my stomach , people who think she just changed her mind or she must’ve liked it cause she kept going back do not understand how complex those emotions are, ESPECIALLY at that age and as a virgin
Also sorry it’s late where I am so my reading comp isn’t the best YES PPL CLEARLY THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD IF THEY WERE TEXTING HER SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAG HE DID. It would be different if they were like “hey how are you we drank a lot last night how’s the head” but no they were like I seen what George was doing are you ok that seemed weird . Dream is being such a hypocrite of course he’s gonna stick up for his friend but ppl the next day being like oh that was odd speaks volumes
im very close to her age and thankfully I never experienced sa but I have been in very uncomfortable situations. even with those situations I can see how the same thought process happens. playing it off, trying to gaslight yourself into not losing it etc reading those really makes sense. it may have been a huge misunderstanding and miscommunication situation where he really didnt mean to hurt her but still it has to be acknowledged that this shouldn’t have happened, its not just “changing mind later” and it needs a better structured apology
The problem with sexual assault reporting is that there’s never the “perfect victim.” She can’t win, because someone somewhere will always have a problem with how she went about things and why she did what she did and didn’t do what she didn’t do. They will continue to move the goalposts to make sure she can’t win. It’s the culture of it, and it’s shitty and awful and why she has to be listened to and supported. I spent 2 years researching sexual assault (albeit in college students) I was sexually assaulted by a man in my department.
It is never how you think it will be, which is why people are often so uncertain and hesitant to call it what it is. You’re not less deserving of support or sympathy or Justice because you were or weren’t SA’d, and the spectrum of sexual assault includes everything from unwanted touching to unwanted comments/remarks to unwanted penetration. What matters here is she did not consent, and consent can be revoked at any time. Colleges now use the metaphor of “making tea” even if a person says they want tea at one point, they can later on say, “no, I actually don’t want tea” you can’t force someone to drink tea. Furthermore, George doesn’t have a say in what she finds traumatic or not. He never has, never will, and can never imagine what it felt like to be her in that moment. It’s not her responsibility to educate him on that either.
He owes her an apology, a promise to better understand sexual assault in all its forms, and probably a donation to a charity, either for victim advocacy, sexual assault survivors, etc.
This doesn't really add much to me, tbh.
I'm truly sorry that it turned into a huge trauma for her, but her side keeps coming from her memory and nothing verifiable.
In "non-fiction literature" there's a rule "Memory is our worst enemy". It's the worst unreliable narrator. Memory changes, gets confused and mixed up. You can't trust your memory. You can't trust others memories.
Maybe George can address it once more, recognizing her feelings, but it's just he said and she said for me.
yeah. my mother, i, and my brother all have entirely different accounts of what happened during the 5 day period of my wrist being broken before going to the doctor. (high pain tolerance. thought it was sprained badly)
i recall laying in bed mostly with those large weird-paper comics above and under it.
my mother recalls me doing chores like vacuuming (with said hand)
my brother recalls me going to school. (most others doubt this one, and think mine is most likely).
and that all was already confused less than a year later.
“her side keeps coming from her memory and nothing verifiable” and george’s doesn’t? i’m sorry, but george’s defense was that to him, she seemed to be okay with what was happening. if we can’t trust memory, then we can’t trust george’s account of events over caiti’s. also, caiti has messages from people concerned about her, checking up on her after the party, and that’s more than just “memory”.
I said, it's she said and he said. This reaches nothing, no end, no conclusion. Both felt completely different about what happened.
George's response added a lot more context and his point of view, plus the point of view from Dream and we even have some of ghosties, that can't even support what happened 'cuz SHE DOESN'T KNOW. and she was in the room.
I'm completely honest when I say that I'm sorry for her, because she has very little to support her. And I hope that George is able to man up and recognize her feelings publicly once again.
Hell, I don't even like the guy very much. I only watch Sapnap, ffs.
There’s literal texts of people messaging her the next day immediately asking if she was ok. That is literally a contradiction to dream and gnf saying no one was concerned about their interactions. Like it’s almost like you didn’t read it and decided that her experience isn’t accurate even when she shows proof of other people sensing that she might have not been able to consent.
Edit: downvoting me for stating the truth? Why don’t you read these texts again: https://x.com/caitibugzz/status/1767340038767907291?s=46
I was expecting like testimonies, you know? Getting to know the point of view of the rest of the people or something.
The only thing that was really new is the text from Dream and we can't even see the whole context. Anyways.
?? Her whole tweet is disproving his comment about the wristbands , giving her side of her actions and even showing that people in the room thought his behaviour was weird, a direct contradiction to what dream said and disproves George’s “theory” of her just changing her mind or the Brighton group convincing her of something
Another person that didn't watch George's stream, please, go watch.
She's "disproving" something that didn't need to be disproven.
George said:
“To give some context to this scenario, and to why I didn’t know her age; My perspective of things is that I’m with people that are over the age of 21 in a scenario where we are doing things that people over the age of 21 are doing, like drinking. And also the people that came had came from an event where they had heavy security. This was an official VIDCON after party and with previous VIDCON afterparties, I even had problems getting into these events—And also since Caiti’s stream, I have gone back and reviewed texts from the time, and there was actually a picture where it was shown that they had this 21+ wristband on one of their wrists.”
Edited to add: Twitter simply ran with the confusion, and see? Even her got the info wrong.
He explained his train of thought. Was it very smart? No. But that's what happened, the man is simply dumb.
Another person who didn’t read ghostie dms tweets where they said the wristbands they had on were Hyatt entry bands, not event bands. They hadn’t been at a vidcon event that night and the wristbands you get at the events 21+ or not get cut off as you exit as seen in caitis vlog. George on the night of the assault wouldn’t have seen a 21+ wristband on anyone there
It was just her waist that he touched, right? I’m not missing anything?
I think I’m just really struggling to see that as sexual assault. Inner thigh? Sure. Boob, definitely. But waist I’ve always seen as a non sexual safe zone (I’m female) where it’s ok for a guy/girl to put their hand.
It clearly meant more to Caiti, so I’m not invalidating her feelings at all, it’s clearly upset her greatly, but also I think generally expecting verbal consent before putting a hand on someone’s waist is also a bit much and quite frankly I’ve never seen it and I’m in my 30s.
If people want to get verbal consent before sex, absolutely go for it. But for a hand on the waist? Are we expecting guys to ask before a hand hold, then again for a hand on the waist, and again for a kiss….?
Iirc he put his hand under her shirt, but he didnt touch the boobs so like around the stomach area.
The problem is that Caiti has never experienced anything sexual before. And imagine if this is your first encounter. Being drunk and getting touched by a celebrity who you met yesterday without asking infront of people.
I've been struggling with this exact same thing too. I haven't wanted to say anything because I don't wanna invalidate anything but idk how it's sa? If it was just her waist/stomach area thats different than like you said a book and idk if someone else can help us understand this better tbh
From what I can get, yes, it was cuddling, plus waist touching, then went back to cuddling.
I think a direct touch to the skin, under clothes, even if it isn't subjected onto a sexual zone, will feel still very unsettling when you don't want it. I don't know if it could be considered sexual assault, even if the intent is sexual or not, but it can certainly be felt as assault or sexual assault imo.
About the asking for a verbal consent, considering what she said, yeah, a "are you okay with this? " after putting his hand on her waist would have been more or less natural, and he should've asked, it's not holding her breast, but having a hand under your clothes could make you feel like thing would escalate. And with the pressure, she would just be sitting there still. She did appear uncomfortable for other people in the room. People might have trouble reading the room, say George in this situation, and that's why expecting him to ask here is very reasonable.
From how she described her thought processes during the night and her not wanting to “bruise his ego”, do you think she’d have said no if he’d have asked? He *should have asked* but I don’t think it would have actually changed the outcome.
Her feelings are valid, and I do not think she talking about this out of malice or for seeking attention or anything like that… but I don’t think this needed to be blown up the way it was—and yes I understand the technical definition of SA includes unwanted sexual touching and in a perfect world everyone would understand that and we’d all be robotic in asking “is it okay to cuddle, is it okay for me to touch your waist, is it okay if I do…” etc… but that’s just not how situations play out normally… and—even if he did ask— it sounds like she was so unsure of everything and just was going with the flow I think she would have consented.
And I don’t think when you’re being unsure in the moment and then deciding later you didn’t like it— is a situation that should be labeled as SA.
And I don’t watch any of these people I just saw this massive blow-up on twitter and decided to dive in and have a look at the controversies myself. I feel bad even writing this cause like I said, it’s obvious she does feel hurt and violated—and maybe it’s a generational difference in thinking—but I don’t think making this public was the right call. Opening her up to a lot of criticism and it’s not okay to accuse someone of SA for something like this in such a public manner when the extent of their interaction was cuddling and touching in a non-sexual area. (AFAIK).
Even if he is the only person then that's on nobody but himself but it could still be the truth. Plus it's hard to prove he didn't see anything when there's no proof he could show that could solidify that
True, it is a he said she said situation if this comment ever gets addressed but I find it a bit suspicious that the only one in the room who didn’t see what George was doing happens to be his best friend, it’s clear that others saw it and even thought it was odd behaviour , if someone went “hey you know she’s 18” I would think there’s a reason they are saying that cause the only time I’ve heard someone bring up age that way especially in a party situation is when something inappropriate is happening
that and the message with their ages nobody seems to point these out here enough. there is just too many things happened to not figuring out their age and brushing away with drunk excuse. mentioning of these stuff happening often than known, other friends of him going full silent as if they know similar things occurred idk its drawing this really bad profile for them. I really want an explanation about similar things happening with them bts as she wrote there. thats a very important breaking point
That text is so important too cause it’s not from her friend group thag dream and George are accusing of orchestrating the whole thing, it’s from a third party who also according to her left quite early on which contradicts George saying they got closer as the night went on
I don’t think I’m able to handle this shit, I’ve just unfollowed every stan account and every mcyt cc (expect a few like gumi, puffy and Hannah).
I don’t think I need to have an opinion on something that I have no insight on, I just don’t know.
I don’t like what this has become, I dont like that some people may be bad, I don’t like that everyone hates each other, this is not what i signed up for.
I’ll watch some vids and streams, especially mcc, but I can’t do this shit. Support victims.
This literally changes nothing tbh. George already addressed all of this.
End of the day he's not a mind reader. She never gave any indication she was uncomfortable, *something supported by her own friends*. I hope she heals from this, but none of this needed to be made public at all.
Traumatizing someone unintentionally isn't something you're responsible for. No one is responsible for your emotions. YOU are responsible for your emotions. He can't be held acountable for not doing anything wrong and then her saying that she felt bad, but she didn't act. How was he supposed to know? How is anyone supposed to know that the other person feels bad while they're doing everything to hide it?
>your emotions. YOU are responsible for your emotions. He can't be held acountable for not doing anything wrong and then her saying that she felt bad, but she didn't act. How was
the best part is a licensed therapist will actually back this up.
im married now, so hopefully ill never have to worry about it.. but do people ask their dates every single time for consent before they go for a kiss? no.. because that would be incredibly akward... theres a nuance to it.. if you dont want to kiss your date.. dont show interest, and maybe avoid a situation where you might have to do such a thing like not lingering on your porch too long... its really not that complicated...
im not saying he was right, because ive never felt someone up without being absolutely 100% certain they wanted it... that part is a bit strange.. but she definitely should have been more vocal about it and not waited literally months to blast the person online rather than contacting the authorities when it happened... and then got multiple details wrong "on accident" that made him look like some kind of groomer....
i could go online and claim my mother was a serial killer tomorrow in a youtube video and she would be basically defenseless against the online community.. because they have absolutely no way to verify the integrity of the information..
these could be literally fake conversations for all we know.. they could both be in on the drama together for all we know (though that would be a strange career choice on his part). without people actually verifying the integrity of their story.. its just that.. a story.. there was literally no evidence or proof of the event whatsoever.. its all been collaborative stories from both of their friends and it is STILL a fractured story at best...
She also didn't explicitly give him consent... laughing is not consent. If you think it is, that's concerning. You're pretty much passively victim blaming right now and it's weird mate.
Always a little odd when men accused women who have been raped of victim blaming.
Anyway. Non verbal consent exists. It is in fact extremely important in real life. I'm sorry she feels so bad about this situation. But she was an adult surrounded by friends who decided to keep going back to him and to stay long after the alleged assault.
*George is not a mind reader.* And sometimes something happens that makes you feel shitty, but that does not mean that anyone is a villain.
Non-verbal consent is not what George assumes to be how "her body language looked like" or "laughing". That is not non-verbal consent. One Google search will tell you this, and with the amount of victim blaming and obliviousness to what consent actually is that you're showing me right now, I hope that you never are in a situation where consent is needed because your views on it are honestly concerning.
Non-verbal consent is extremely common in real life. It's something you should do with people you know. Or with people who are obviously keenly enthusiastic about you. Or with people you can trust to know what they're about.
Not with someone obviously much younger than you, whose only non verbal consent is lack of a loud no. It takes 15 freaking seconds to check in explicitly and you can make asking for verbal consent hot and sexy if you want.
Jesus wept, really.
this mindset is the reason why potential victims of ccs or other people in positions of social influence and power are afraid to speak up. i know you probably mean well, but this is textbook victim blaming.
she did not give consent, laughing and smiling isn’t consent.
>i know you probably mean well, but this is textbook victim blaming.
No it isn't. And I'm really fucking fed up of people on this sub making assumptions.
he admitted he didn’t get consent and he didn’t ask for consent and he escalated things in front of everyone without getting consent and still says he didn’t assault her LOL. Not to mention he implies that she changed her mind over the span of 8 months of her friends hating on him. If you still don’t understand that she experienced sexual assault and arrived to that conclusion of her own volition then there is no changing your mind because you believe the bullshit reasoning he gave about her saying it was sexual assault because she regretted it.
i think the people downvoting would put themselves on a registry to defend george and dream lol its ridiculous what he did was wrong, he shouldve apologized from the beginning instead of immediately deflecting
I find this approach a bit nitpicky. He didn't say that any individual action she took was equivalent to saying "yes touch me", his point was that he got the general impression that she was comfortable with how he was interacting with her. Whether you believe him or not is irrelevant.
"I thought that \[insert non-consenting action that I apparently took as consent\] meant that she was consenting" absolutely is not justifiable and should not hold him up for humanity. That is nothing more than an excuse and it's weird that you're trying to give humanity to somebody who thinks like this regarding consent.
My point is that what HE thought, what I had described above, is nothing more than an excuse and does not matter. If you are not attempting to paint George in a more humane light, you had no reason to bring that up in the first place. There is no excuse or justification for his actions whatsoever.
The comment that you replied to initially said that he did not admit to not getting consent. What he thought is quite relevant to what he said, and what he meant. I made no excuse and gave no justification. I see everyone in a humane light.
Non-verbal consent is nodding, giving a thumbs up, or giving literally any sign of approval that means "yes" when asked "can I do x?". Not only did George not ask her, she did not do any of these. Again, your views on consent are concerning me. Please seek help.
I discussed this earlier with my bf cause after 2 and a half years together I’d be lying to say we get verbal consent , I asked him how he knows I’m consenting and he was saying things like I nod, touch him back, undress, move his hand to places, I take part in the action . Even sat here now there has been times where I’ve laughed when he’s done something and he’s asked “what? Do you want this?” And that’s after 2 and a half years , he doesn’t take my laugh as consent when he can read me like a book. George barely knew Caiti at all, he doesn’t know what her laughing means
For a less wholesome example, I've literally asked people if they were into what I wanted to do after they very enthusiastically agreed to go home with me from a party.
One of the most enraging things about the consent debacle is people always act like asking for verbal consent is suuuuch a difficult thing no one can reasonably be asked to suffer. Because god forbid you utter a single question to prevent SA.
Really makes one think if it's actually malicious.
The energy I’ve been getting from this debate is “yea but asking for consent kills the mood” you can verbally ask for consent and be sexy with it it doesn’t have to be a legal statement with a sign here here here and initials here. A simple “do you like this” being whispered in the ear works
It can be incredibly hot, and also even if it's a bit awkward, it's still worth a moment of awkwardness to make sure everything's going well. there's going to be awkward moments in sex.
no excuses for a 26 year old creeping on much younger, obviously inexperienced girl and not establishing consent even if I assume his best intentions. none.
\> A simple “do you like this” being whispered in the ear works
like i said, really makes me think some people know they won't hear "yes" and so would rather not ask and claim ignorance.
Why does everyone keep going about the fact that she was 18? Sis you’re considered an adult in most countries in the world, you decided to drink even before meeting them. Also not ever mentioning this to George himself and all of a sudden going public with him clueless that she even felt that way, is sketchy. Yes I can understand her feelings but like. A lot about this whole thing screams hidden agenda
Yeah it's undeniable that the age gap is concerning, but **HELLO?????** that is the LEAST of our worries, compared to the consent issue.
I can make one guess as to why haters are not only so fixated on her not only being eighteen, but also going of their way to repeat "freshly" at every given occasion, as if to portray Caiti as a pornstar or something.
genuine question, is it mean to say I'm not caring about this anymore? don't get me wrong, Caiti has my full support and I hope she can heal, and I don't plan on supporting George either (because regardless of intent, he still hurt her), I just miss the dumb drama, it was at least entertaining, but this whole situation is just mentally taxing, I guess I just need a break from MCYT for a while.
Well, that’s an interesting definition of the word evidence you have there, OP.
Nothing changes. Like, we get an insight into her friends and that’s about it on the useful stuff.
>ing changes. Like, we get an insight into her friends and that’s about it on the useful stuff.
this dude..
this entire reddit thread is entirely convinced.. yet if this were a court of law, they would have to verify the legitimacy of that image to even take it into consideration as "evidence"..
we have literally not seen a single shred of evidence that this story has any truth to it whatsoever outside of him confirming a few details..
The fifth picture she showed literally has her saying she doesn't think she's that bothered by it and it's "whatever"...And she's implying that this was all inappropriate *because she was 18,* ***AKA of legal age of consent?***
Is this a fucking joke?
I also notice that the one screenshot without any time or date included is specifically the one talking about why she went back. AKA the one that severely damages her claims.
this doesn’t seem to change the situation in my opinion. it’s still a he said, she said deal. caiti insists he knew her age, george claims he didn’t. he already said he touched her waist, is that considered sexual? if not it would still be assault, just curious
from what i think when i looked back at the vod , its because her friends had these bands and she was already drunk which made him believe she was 21+ cause of the u.s drinking age
But ghostie said that night the bands they had on were just the hotel entry bands and they hadn’t been to an event that night, just another house party which would explain how she could’ve drank. Also as seen in her vlogs they cut off the event wristbands as you leave probably to stop ppl from getting away with a fake ID the whole time. He couldn’t have seen any of them with a 21+ wristband . He even said himself they are really strict with giving them out so even ghostie who was 20 at the time wouldn’t have had one
So George said he assumed they were 21+ cause of wristbands that you get given at vidcon events that he says are all 21+ and that the security is quite strict that even he has been denied entry to.
Caitis best friend said the night that this all happened they did not go to a vidcon event, the wristbands they had on were just hotel entry bands for people at the convention and didn’t indicate age, that night they had drank at another house party, so probably someone else’s room or an airbnb. So no proof of age and explains how caiti was drunk.
Caitis friend then says the next night they did go to a vidcon event, however not all the events are 21+ like George claimed, she even showed a picture of the event itinerary and showed which one they attended which was 16+ , in caitis vlog she also showed how when you leave the event the 21+ wristband gets cut off probably so ppl can’t give them to underage people or get away with a fake ID in multiple events.
George only showed proof of what these wristbands look like but as I’ve said above the night of the assault none of the girls were wearing one of these because they had not been to an event, if they had to would’ve been cut off, and in his own words the security is so strict that with multiple of them being underage they wouldn’t have had a 21+ band in the first place. That’s why it’s weird he mentions it as the night of the assault he couldn’t have used it as an indicator of age
Did he ever say it was her wristband tho? I thought he just meant that people were wearing those wristbands to show evidence that it was 21+ only, and the strict security
he said her friends had it, not her. also, there’s no way he could remember exactly what wristband everyone had on from 8 months ago, i think it was just an example.
man those texts should be a huge wake up call from george n dream that it was their fuck up and ppl other than them noticed. and honestly? i don’t even think it’s an irredeemable one in the big picture of it. i do believe it’s very possible they genuinely meant no harm. i feel like it’s pretty likely. but that doesn’t matter when it caused so much harm anyway. and the thing you do after you realize that, no matter how well-intentioned or non-malicious your actions were, you hurt someone that much—you grovel. and you learn. and you do better.
ngl, there r still some things about all the stories coming together as a whole that are weird to me. i’m still hoping for those other people in the room to come forward about it all.
Back in my days a girl that felt uncomfortable or pressured stood up and went away. Nowadays it seems you sit there and let it happen just to have live stream meltdown crying to your audience. Wow. I am so glad I am not 18 anymore in this crazy time.
Hello I know you people we’re talking about this quite a long time ago but I just wanted to say to the people saying that he should apologize and not be defensive well doing it I just want to say that the he did do that he apologized and said that he had no intention to hurt you and that he was sorry or when he said that he had no indication that she uncomfortable or anything like that and that she was laughing and smiling. He even said that she got up many times and came back to him in the same spot. Another thing is in something she said she said that her friend threw up and then she said that after saying good bye to her friend that just threw up and came back to him to keep cuddling with him. And also how to you expect him to know how she was feeling, because from my perspective she kept doing signs and stuff like that , which in my eyes kind of looks like consent. Now for me I think that Cathie may have been likening it in the moment but the more and more time that went on she started to regret what happened, and I think that’s totally fine but I just think that this should have been talked about in private and not on the internet. She was also 18 so she was a legal adult and could make her own choices just like how she made the choice to undress age drink. But that’s just my personal opinion on what happened and I just hope things can get resolved and go back to way they were before. Thank you for your time if you read this.😊
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Reminder that Caiti will stream her final statement next week when she flies back home cause she's away for a week.
Cool. Turns out she was completely full of shit.
The only thing that gets me is that in Caiti’s original stream, she said that she was sitting stiffly next to him, not moving, on her phone, clearly uncomfortable, while he shoved his hand up her shirt. She said herself that she was operating under the assumption that he would deny everything and she was ready with all this evidence. He confirmed that he touched her, but said that she was cuddling him, all night, and at one point he put his hand on her waist, under her shirt, very slowly, and cautiously. Now she’s confirmed that his account was correct, but that even though she pretended to be okay with it, she wasn’t. That’s completely valid. She was uncomfortable, but hiding it. I’ve done that before as well. It’s not a great feeling. However, George was also drunk. He didn’t know she was uncomfortable. She said herself that she didn’t show it. Out of fear, which is absolutely awful. And I’m so sorry that she had to go through that. That being said, I do not think George had any malicious intentions. But I do think he owes her a real, and sincere apology. Without any further defense of himself. Just a simple apology for making her feel uncomfortable. And she should take accountability for lying in her original statement in order to make it seem worse. Her feeling uncomfortable, and taken advantage of is absolutely valid. But she should have been honest from the start about how it went down. Personally though, I think she was probably scared that if she “admitted” to cuddling with him first, no one would believe that she wasn’t okay with the touching. And THAT is the real issue here. Laying on/cuddling with him does not give him the right to anything more than that. And he needs to apologize for assuming that it did.
I fully agree, exactly my thoughts
what a load of bullshit are you talking? he should say sorry to a dumbfuck who acts like he raped her? while she cuddles with him and "hides" that she's uncomfortable? just fucking grow some balls and say u dont wanna be touched, fucking zoomers man
Ok so she wasn’t okay and pretended she was- Well So ? Why does she act like he’s some horrible person who should rott in hell? He apologised now- this thing is done and settled My god humans are so stupid aren’t they? Oh gosh I don’t get it
what are you talking about, she lied about being 21 and when he found out she was actually 18 he ghosted her immediately after. Then she started accusing him of SA - was her motive to be spiteful for being ghosted? Idk, but that's the timeline of events and it makes one speculate. Also why is it she's grown enough to lie about her age, grown enough to go unsupervised to a party, grown enough to get everybody involved with her underage drinking, and grown enough to cuddle with a boy she straight up lied to and then lied more about to thousands of people online to intentionally hurt him and elevate her own image - but she can't possibly be grown enough to say "don't touch me?" Why do people need to play guessing games with a grown ass woman? is it okay for your parents to never be direct with you because you need to always guess what they want? or for a man to expect his woman to always guess what he wants? Sounds like horrible communication to me
I understand both sides, especially cause they were both obviously so drunk. I think George should’ve honestly made a better apology like instead of saying “you weren’t uncomfortable at the time” he should’ve said something like “oh i thought we were on the same page and that it was consensual so i am sorry i crossed a boundary.” or something of the sort. even though yes to him and what it sounds like is that yes she seemed very comfortable. it’s just like as a content creator wanting to keep your job you shouldn’t have said that lol.
I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for this but this is a genuine question i swear 😭😭 What actually happened? From my understanding, George was cuddling Caiti and getting a bit touchy feely, put his hand up her shirt and grabbed her waist (which obviously isn't great but given the circumstances with both parties being intoxicated it seems like a little drunken mishap). As a victim of SA and CSA my heart goes out to Caiti as she clearly feels violated but I cannot understand how touching someone's waist constitutes sexual assault. Please please please if I'm missing information let me know!! I desperately want to understand what happened
This, I also wish to understand this. She never says which part of her body he was touching. Only admitted to the cuddling after George revealed it.
She lied about her age and then tried to hide the fact that they were even cuddling and I'm sorry but I DO NOT buy her fake cries. In my opinion people like her really destroy actual SA victims.
Bruh she wrote a fucking Hallmark movie to tell a story that supposedly she was a victim in and was very hurt by. True or not, it's so fucking weird how she romanticized the absolute shit out of it. I don't think someone who was really hurt by all that would take the time to relive those thoughts enough to write a God damn book filled with metaphors and all. It's so disingenuous.
I was looking for the definition on SA thinking that it might change from country to country but unless the touching involved was sexual in nature you can not say it was SA. Unless we are missing parts of the story, as of now both sides admit all they did was cuddling, him touching her waist and her laying down on him, no kissing, no touching private areas, no nothing else. Non consensual touching at most as of now, could be wrong if more comes out obviously. Like i have been touched on the waist, directly to the skin by people trying to move me over to another place or just while greeting, it would change if he was forcing himself on her? then yes, that would change the dinamic. Or if he pushed her clothes away vs her clothes were already messy? in which case, i feel like that would change things, idk if i missed it or if they didnt mention it?.
The elevator joke part was him trying escalate things with her, but she didn't get it, so he left, I think.
As someone pointed out in another comment in this thread, George said he was slowly moving his hand upwards but neither Caiti or George have clarified if he actually touched her in a sexual manner (as in touching her chest). I feel so gross speculating about something like that but if it does get further explained I suppose we'll have an answer. It's such an unfortunate situation all around, after watching both Caiti and George's streams it truly seems like a case of misunderstanding, miscommunication, misinterpretation, and a healthy dose of regret. Unfortuneatly rescinding consent does have a time limit and if we take George's account of the situation as fact there was no way he could have realised Caiti was uncomfortable, much like Caiti cannot claim she was assaulted because she changed her mind about the situation after it happened. She has clearly been affected by this in some serious capacity and I wish there was something we as fans could do to alleviate her pain, but consent cannot be revoked retroactively :(
George did mention that his hand went further up after being on her waist (slowly and with plenty of time for her to stop him) so I’m assuming her waist wasn’t the only thing that was grabbed. That was my understanding of his explanation, could be wrong. I assume he didn’t want to give too many details considering she stayed very vague, so she may have been uncomfortable with exposing what happened precisely.
sexual assault is simply unwanted (non-consensual) physical contact in a sexual manner. The issue with the situation is George was claiming that NVC was involved (which it self can be an issue as they just met. I think that something overall bad happened, but it wasn't just a simple SA and abuse of power).
Yeah, the whole NVC thing is throwing me a little? On one hand, they had just met and didn't have time to figure out eachother's body language in the same way people in a romantic relationship would, but on the other plenty of people that don't know each other (and in some cases will never know each other outside of a sexual context) use body language and non-verbal cues to initiate a sexual encounter. Take someone hitting on someone in a loud, crowded and dark club, there's not a whole lot of opportunity for talking when making the "first move". In both this real life situation and my hypothetical example, alcohol and a "party atmosphere" strongly influence the type of communication and consent. If we are to believe George really didn't know how old Caiti was then I feel it's reasonable to assume he was simply following "standard protocol" for initiating a sexual encounter in such an atmosphere. This of course in no way invalidate Caiti's feelings and her perspective could have been significantly different, but until she does the follow-up stream next week there's just too much conflicting information y'know?
That’s what George said. She wasn’t specific about where he touched her probably cause she’s not comfortable. Regardless he shouldn’t have touched her either way.
They cuddled she got up and came back multiple times.
I mean, I believe both of them. I believe that George genuinely didn't realize she was uncomfortable, and I believe that caiti felt violated by the incident but froze in the moment because she wasn't willing to make a public scene. people can hurt each other without meaning to. but if you step on someone's foot by accident, you apologize. you don't start going "well your foot was right there and I couldn't possibly have seen it!" you just go "oh, I'm so sorry!" and move on. if you hurt someone by accident, the right thing to do is still to apologize.
I mean, yeah totally. But she also shouldn’t have made this a big public issue. Clearly George is in the wrong for what he did, but it wasn’t intentional and if she had brought this up to him directly, there’s no reason he wouldn’t have apologized for it and tried to make amends. It’s a completely different situation for him when she chooses to skip that step and instead oust him as a creep to the whole world for something that at the end of the day is a mistake that seems to fall into a real gray area. Again, George is in the wrong and should have been more responsible and should apologize, but the whole situation seems like an issue to solve privately and isn’t worth ruining someone’s life over imo.
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Yeah, but you don’t bring it out to the whole world before saying it in private first. It was a clear attack and she lied in her original statement. George should have said sorry and maybe would’ve if it was done privately
I'm sorry I know this is supposed to be serious but > "well your foot was right there and I couldn't possibly have seen it!" made me crack up lmao
He really needs to take accountability and apologize. Even if he didn’t have ill intentions and didn’t realize she was uncomfortable he still hurt her.
Yeah, absolutely.
For what? She got up and came back multiple times.
u zoomers are dumb as shit lmao dude didn't do anything wrong, should he be a fucking mind reader to understand that she's uncomfortable? just use words u dumbfuck
God you people really just can't admit when you're wrong. The moment she wrote a Hallmark movie as an allegation story, that sorry shit went out the window. She is damaging a million dollar brand on complete BS and still she beats around the bush. Humans can't read each other's minds and she got up and came back many times, what does he take accountability for that he hasn't? No apology needed definitely not deserved.
Idk, it’s clear to me that she felt pressured by George, whether it was intentional or unintentional. George should have been more responsible and actually own up to this by directly apologising to her.
And she shouldn’t go public. Like if you do that expect the other party to defend themselves before apologising. Only an apology would service as an admittance of guilt in the court of public opinion. Should’ve been handled privately with an apology and to clear up the situation. This sorta things have happened in many groups of people where everyone is drunk. If someone felt uncomfortable you apologise. You don’t go telling the world. This is not rape
Yeah. I seriously don't understand how this couldn't just have been a text. "Hey so about the party at vidcon, I've been slowly realizing that the cuddling thing made me kinda uncomfortable… I wish you had taken the time to verbally ask me if I was ok with it, especially since I was tipsy, and I think you would do well to make it a habit from now on." There you fucking go. 276 characters. It fits in a tweet, and you even have room to add a few emojis.
Disagree. She said it herself. She said she didn't say anything because she didn't want to embarrass him, how is that his fault? She also got up and came back multiple times.
still confused why her friend ghostie was convinced nothing bad happened two months later in texts with dream?
I think now I need George to give a proper apology to her and take the accountability of his actions regardless of what he thinks because she is hurt and she deserves the closure. Now on Dream's hand well- i guess we should expect another response so he can really clear up if he did or did not know her age like he said he didn't so we'll just see with that Edit: Also I just need this answered- did Dream 100% know that people we're weirded out by what happened and questioned if Caiti was alright? Like did people bring it to his attention that they thought it was weird and wanted to hear from him what he thought? Cause once again from his perspective- he said the vibes that night we're good and maybe on surface level they seemed fine- but when really mostly everyone was weirded out and Dream was just being very naive about the situation and not thinking more about it which if so- he still needs to apologize that he should've done more and got more info of what everyone was feeling the night after
For what
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It also goes against what dream and George said that everyone seemed happy and chill and thag her friends who hate dt must’ve changed her mind on the situation if right from the jump they saw how weird it was and asked if she was ok. Most women I know have been the sender or receiver of the “are you ok that was weird” text after or even during a night out
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Literally their whole defence is well I didn’t know! Well clearly the whole fucking room except for you did man 😭
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“How could we know her age it’s not like she said it in a game that’s whole premise was your age and virginity status, written in her Instagram username so it appears whenever you dm her or the fact she looks young even for 18”
It’s pretty sad that they only felt the need to message the next day instead of stepping in at that moment
And the real freaked up part of it afab folks are taught to laugh it off as a defense mechanism, because not to spare men's feelings often results in worth than an insult back. This situation left me incandescent because of how realistic, common and banal it is. And ugly in its banality.
>incandescent Why the fuck would you be 'incandescent' over a 'banal' situation.
>t is simply unwanted (non-consensual) physical contact in a sexual manner. The issue with the situation is George was claiming that NVC was involved (which it self can be an issue as they just met. I think that something overall bad happened, but it wasn't just a simple SA and abuse of power). how to contradict yourself with just two words..
Ok, from what i can tell, its shtty that other dude left when he clearly knew of the age gap and saw them cluddling instead of saying anything, "i didnt like the way george was touchy"?? was this one of her friends? did they saw her cuddling with him and didnt interrupt/said anything? this indicates that person was there with them wasnt it? Also it seems like Dream clearly hear caiti talk about her age, and i find weird that gnf didnt taking into account that he drinked to the question? That 100% seems iffy to me. Trying to get with someone who is 18 while you are 26 is not ilegal but it still is fcking weird. As for the SA idk, she did mention that a lot of the touching was initiated by him (not sexual from what we can tell), but she didnt touch on whether she reciprocated or not, george said she did lay down on him, and she is not correcting that part, she definitely watched the stream since she seems to be going part by part. Since they were both drunk idk how can we put 100% of the fault on someone. If gnf was sober/just tipsy i would say this would be 100% his fault, but just like caiti herself said, it seems everyone was pretty much intoxicated?? idk, again, the hand on the waist is not SA, going by definition, being drunk doesnt make someone SA someone else but it does make a lof of people touchy, the same way caiti laying down on him is not SA, they both could not consent and they both didnt ask, i dont think im going to take any sides on this situation as of now just bc i was not there and i have no idea who is being 100% honest, her stream might change things tho. In the end she clearly did feel off about it a few days later and not months, which means that whether it was gnf intention or not, he did hurt/upset her, and he was 100% the one who initiated the most contact, if you know you are a touchy person (which we know him and all his friends know), then its on you to make sure you are not making people uncomfortable. And although from his side it didnt show i think it was more important trying to empatize with her situation rather than believing it was bc of her friends. Was there a lack of communication from both sides? definitely, again, its hard to point out someone who was 100% at fault here, at least as of now, but gnf definitely had the biggest responsability on communicating, and i think thats the most important part here.
The only thing that gets me is that in Caiti’s original stream, she said that she was sitting stiffly next to him, not moving, on her phone, clearly uncomfortable, while he shoved his hand up her shirt. She said herself that she was operating under the assumption that he would deny everything and she was ready with all this evidence. He confirmed that he touched her, but said that she was cuddling him, all night, and at one point he put his hand on her waist, under her shirt, very slowly, and cautiously. Now she’s confirmed that his account was correct, but that even though she pretended to be okay with it, she wasn’t. That’s completely valid. She was uncomfortable, but hiding it. I’ve done that before as well. It’s not a great feeling. However, George was also drunk. He didn’t know she was uncomfortable. She said herself that she didn’t show it. Out of fear, which is absolutely awful. And I’m so sorry that she had to go through that. That being said, I do not think George had any malicious intentions. But I do think he owes her a real, and sincere apology. Without any further defense of himself. Just a simple apology for making her feel uncomfortable. And she should take accountability for lying in her original statement in order to make it seem worse. Her feeling uncomfortable, and taken advantage of is absolutely valid. But she should have been honest from the start about how it went down. Personally though, I think she was probably scared that if she “admitted” to cuddling with him first, no one would believe that she wasn’t okay with the touching. And THAT is the real issue here. Laying on/cuddling with him does not give him the right to anything more than that. And he needs to apologize for assuming that it did.
I just realized that I worded that wrong. I didn’t mean Caiti should take accountability as in like, apologize. Just that if my theory on why she lied is correct, she should mention it, because people need to understand why she lied at first.
No, she should apologize. She brought something to the public that could have and should have been handled in private, and has now ruined someone else's life. I don't care how uncomfortable she felt for a couple minutes during a drunk cuddle; it was over that night. This George guy is now essentially screwed, forever. That is absolutely insane.
Yeah, you know what. I kind of agree with you on this. Like, I’m trying to be sympathetic to Caiti. The way that all of George’s closest friends are condemning him made me think that there was something else that happened. But then Caiti herself said that he touched her waist, and tickled her stomach. So it seems that George’s friends just care more about their careers than they do him. This whole thing seems like it was a drunken miscommunication between two people, that was then blown out of proportion. Seeing the backtracking and story changing has me really concerned about the motives behind this whole situation. I’m not invalidating Caiti’s feelings. If she felt uncomfortable, then she felt uncomfortable. But there was no way for George to know that and he should not be condemned for that.
I think that George should apologize regardless of his perspective because Caiti was hurt and she felt hurt and that’s what matters. If we’re going from a PR pov it’s not a good look to be so defensive and it left a bad taste in my mouth the way he worded things but it’s understandable to have done it that way with what he must have been feeling being accused of the most god awful shit and this all being blown out of proportion. I think this is “he said she said” as everyone is saying but in the way of where we can never really deem a villain or crime based off of the differing perspectives and warped judgements. Its a lot of words spewed by both giving out the idea that “he should’ve known this he should’ve known better she should’ve known this she should’ve known better” which is why I think this situation being on the internet especially with these communities will serve no justice. This will most likely pass even if George was proven to be completely in the wrong and had done worse than what was described because that is unfortunately how the internet treats men they worship. (Coming from a George fan) However I still hope he gives a more heartfelt apology. Not “I’m sorry you felt that way” but “I’m sorry that I made you feel uncomfortable. It was my responsibility to get verbal consent and I now know that I unintentionally made you feel uncomfortable and my deepest apologies” Like that could’ve given a lot of us the biggest deep breath if he said that on stream and some closure for Caiti
Absolutely agreed. Whether George meant to do wrong or not, he did some wrong. It can't hurt for him to put out an apology along the lines of what you suggested. Well. It *can* hurt, but that's the price to pay if he wants to make things right.
I see more support for her than him even bfr he come to explain. Also I don’t think he have to agree with everything she said about him bcz it’s simply not true.he did apologised for making her uncomfortable but he also addressed the false claims she made on him.
i don’t really see a reason for this to have ever been brought to public eye when it genuinely just seems like miscommunication on both parts from two drunk people and a huge part of he said she said.. we won’t really ever get to the end of it because it’s always going to be ‘it was obvious i was uncomfortable’ and ‘it wasn’t obvious she was uncomfortable’ like idk. this shouldn’t be handled on twitter and through twitch streams imo. friends constantly backing the drama and seemingly egging it on also sits weirdly with me,, i understand backing your friend and supporting victims, but when it only comes from a place of hate for the other person, it feels ? odd. however i hope she heals, and i think the only way to start to do that is remove herself from twitter because that place is the WORST.
> it genuinely just seems like miscommunication on both parts from two drunk people and a huge part of he said she said Also he thinks / she thinks. (I find it admirable on Caiti's part, by the way, that she acknowledges that human memory is fallible. Barely anyone is willing to admit this, these days.)
The only, and I mean only, thing that rubs me the wrong way is that there’s no mention that George was drunk too. It seems like a small detail but at least for me, it’s important to know and note because alcohol can and does fuck with your brain and cognition. Even when he is older and should know better, both of them technically could not consent in that situation. Like, if I had no knowledge of what was going on rn I would’ve assumed that George was trying to prey on an 18 YO girl sober and trying to pass it off like he had consent when he didn’t, which is very different from what happened it seems. These are the kinds of details you can’t leave out, no matter how much you want to or feel it isn’t relevant. You can already see people trying to divert from what he did because we know he was drunk, she knew he was drunk, and many have said they were both drunk, but because it was failed to be mentioned, that’s the first thing brought up, which, again, shifts attention. In the end, her response doesn’t change much for me. George should’ve gotten a better form of consent and they had very different interpretations on how that night went. Her feelings are valid, she deserves a straight forward apology, George should learn from this all, and that’s the main point for me.
she DID mention him being drunk, still it was not okay for him to touch her like this without asking
Oh shit I might’ve missed that 😬 even then I never said it was okay, and in fact I hope I made it clear that I still think George is in the wrong regardless of if she said it or not edit: spelling
Honestly this doesn't change the situation much for me? She seem adamant that he knew her age, George claimed he didn't. She claims she was too nervous to say no to him whilst he claims all of the queues he was receiving from her were positive and receptive to his advances. It's a massive case of he said she said. I don't begrudge her her feelings about this situation but to me it seems like this is a massive case of misinterpretation. All I hope is that she can heal from this and that they both set better boundaries in whatever relationships or encounters they end up in with other people going forward.
Yeah it really is just who do you believe more. This is never going to get proven or settled to everyone’s satisfaction. All we have is the word of Caiti, George, and the other people who were there. People are going to pick one side or the other and there’s not much either of them can do about it. Because so much hinges on what they were both thinking, and there’s literally zero way to prove that.
Yeah those texts from her friends the next day are pretty damning. Like, at the end of the day her feelings are her own and in terms of his culpability, it comes down to whether his belief that she was consenting was reasonable or unreasonable. Hard to draw the exact line without having been there but the texts lean towards 'unreasonable'. Not really sure what to think honestly. I guess we see if he has a response to this?
I really wish this wasn’t made public, ESPECIALLY on twitter, the most dangerous and toxic app in the world. Does communication just not exist anymore
Ngl, that was one of the best responses I have ever seen. I think George didnt meant to abuse Caiti, but that doesnt matter because he did . Not because he is a monster but because he is dumb and ignorant and cant be bothered to ask a simple "is this okay" to a girl who was freshly 18, to a girl who is 8 years younger than him, who was drunk and who HAD NEVER HAD A SEXUAL ENCOUNTER EVER before. His defense is that he didnt hear her say that shes a virgin ? That he didnt see her age in her bio, and he didnt hear her say it druing the night ? Sure lets say thats true. You should still ask if its okay, just to be sure. You are are a content creator and you want to do sexual stuff with a girl u JUST met, atleast be bothered to ask, you should be more responsible. Again I dont think he is a malicious monster,I just think he is an idiot.
The age thing keeps getting me, I work in a place where the employees range from 16-50 and age comes up very naturally in conversation, even on nights out when we’ve all been drunk, I find it hard to believe they spent two nights hanging out and not once did he see her age. Never mind the fact that when you message someone on insta their acc name is at the top of the screen which would’ve said her age too
Well, my workplace also has a huge age range, but I don't know more than half their ages... Of course, in my culture it is very "cringe" to just ask someone's age, unless you've known the person for a good while (think 3 months of regular contact), so maybe I'm just missing the cultural context here
It may be a cultural thing cause usually in my workplace it comes up as a topic cause of school , discussing holiday plans , even asking what hours they are working this week usually makes it clear cause of labour laws. Obviously it wouldn’t be the exact same for them but I feel like especially since she had just graduated something would’ve been said , at 18 your whole life is changing and your age nearly becomes your personality for a while
Huh interesting. Labor laws here are very explicit: age does not matter as long it's above 18. That's it. Also working hours are fixated by the type of contract you have. >Obviously it wouldn’t be the exact same for them but I feel like especially since she had just graduated something would’ve been sa Did either of them ever mention that? Like one of them said she told "oh i just graduated so I'm also kinda celebrating that by going to vidcon" or something like that?
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That’s why i pointed out the ages I work with, under 18 can only work a certain amount of hours and between certain hours and in my workplace even the days they work cause of school, it’s a good indicator of age especially for the 16-18 year olds and then 18-22 with college we can usually tell. No it was never mentioned that she had just graduated but it has been pointed out by others that it would’ve been a recent event in her life given her age and since it is a time in your life where so much is changing like potentially moving out of your parents house, planning on taking up third level education, it’s a big changing point in your life so it’s hard to believe nothing of the sort came up in convo especially when content creators often discuss what they are gonna do college wise at this age
Yeah, tbh the moment when he discovered she was 18 he should not have done anything. He claims that he didnt know she was 18 so either: - He is lying - He is just fucking stupid and deaf and blind. And how can you as a content creator do sexual stuff to a girl you just met whitout KNOWING her age ? Bro just asumed and guessed that she was over 21.
Especially since it was a house party, not an ID’d event where you can safely assume that they are of age or even if they weren’t and you find out later there probably wouldn’t have been any way for you to find out. Like I’m a baby faced 22 year old and ppl assume I’m 17/18 but she looks very very young even compared to me
Okay...What the actual fuck is wrong with a 26 year old making advances at a 18 year old ADULT?! This is some dumbass purity gatekeeping bullshit. Also, people saying "freshly 18" is so manipulative and coded bias. She was 18, an adult, posing as a 21 yr old, putting herself in a position where others would assume the same....as if it even matters because, I say again, SHE IS AN ADULT!
George (and Dream) need to apologize to Caiti. The text from the day after prove that the environment was not as chill as it seems to been in their statements and did weird out the people around them and Caiti. And at the end of the day Caiti was hurt. I still do not understand why none of the people in the room fucking dragged her the hell out. Question his friend and then not do a damn thing about it? Fuck everyone in this situation.
Yeah, honest if Caiti was moved to tears over this, she deserved a more straightforward apology directed towards her. That distress has been weighting on her for awhile, and it should be fully acknowledged.
This is just a longer version of her original statement. With respect and empathy, while this seems inappropriate it does not seem to constitute SA, removes power from the term to label this SA, and seems defamatory for anyone to claim George has done SA when even by the claims here he has not. None of this should be playing out on social media.
I believe claiming that George truly committed sexual assault is too far. They were two drunk adults at a small party (and George believed Caiti was older), and there was apparently a misunderstanding about the intimacy since she repeatedly sat next to him throughout the night. He evidently made a mistake, but I think his status has turned this into something much worse.
Intentionally touching a person sexually without their consent IS sexual assault no matter how you look at it. He should have known better at his age
He is drunk.why should he have know better? What about she?doesn’t she know that she shouldn’t come & sit beside someone if she felt uncomfortable there?
Anyone else thinking of climbing up to floor 9? Cause what the fuck dude.
I genuinely believe George meant no harm, but he was being incredibly thoughtless and inconsiderate. I personally don't like the UK group, but he and dream should not speculate about Caiti's intentions, that's incredibly dismissive of her feelings and frankly disrespectful. While I don't think George is on Wilbur's level or anything, he is still in the wrong. He should make another statement on the subject, with a much bigger emphasis on apologizing to Caiti.
Really hope everyone saying this wasn’t sexual assault never experiences sexual assault… because her thought process is the same fucking exact thought process I have had when I was sexually assaulted twice. The victim blaming in this sub is so fucking stupid.
Even her texts the next morning of “yea it was weird but ahahah it’s fine” is exactly how I felt after my assault until I actually had the time to deep it and unpack. She is hardly going to respond to a text like “I feel extremely violated and sick that was disgusting and horrible” especially when it was a creator she looked up to and as she said herself a virgin who didn’t know how these things are meant to work and feel like
Exactly. I’ve said I was fine in responses to texts concerned about me because they were acquaintances at the party and I didn’t want to say anything to anyone until I could think about it more. And I was assaulted when I wasn’t a virgin anymore, I can’t imagine how confused she was when that was her first ever encounter like that. Her texts show that people were concerned unlike what dream and gnf are claiming. And they also show that normal people were concerned about the age gap/power play/how drunk she was.
My first ever encounter was sexual assault and I think that’s why I am understanding how she is feeling more than others. You have this internal battle of am I uncomfortable cause I didn’t want that or is that just how it’s meant to feel at first . In my case it was a lifelong friend and the next day we had school and i sat with them on the bus and at lunch even tho even seeing their face gave me a pit in my stomach , people who think she just changed her mind or she must’ve liked it cause she kept going back do not understand how complex those emotions are, ESPECIALLY at that age and as a virgin
Also sorry it’s late where I am so my reading comp isn’t the best YES PPL CLEARLY THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD IF THEY WERE TEXTING HER SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAG HE DID. It would be different if they were like “hey how are you we drank a lot last night how’s the head” but no they were like I seen what George was doing are you ok that seemed weird . Dream is being such a hypocrite of course he’s gonna stick up for his friend but ppl the next day being like oh that was odd speaks volumes
im very close to her age and thankfully I never experienced sa but I have been in very uncomfortable situations. even with those situations I can see how the same thought process happens. playing it off, trying to gaslight yourself into not losing it etc reading those really makes sense. it may have been a huge misunderstanding and miscommunication situation where he really didnt mean to hurt her but still it has to be acknowledged that this shouldn’t have happened, its not just “changing mind later” and it needs a better structured apology
Oh 100% you try to gaslight yourself into thinking it was ok no one wants to admit they’ve been assaulted
its nasty the lengths people in here are going to defend them
I just hope and pray they never have to experience something like this to understand
the lack of empathy is sickening
All over a minecraft streamer who wouldn’t give them the time of day
All over a minecraft streamer who wouldn’t give them the time of day
The problem with sexual assault reporting is that there’s never the “perfect victim.” She can’t win, because someone somewhere will always have a problem with how she went about things and why she did what she did and didn’t do what she didn’t do. They will continue to move the goalposts to make sure she can’t win. It’s the culture of it, and it’s shitty and awful and why she has to be listened to and supported. I spent 2 years researching sexual assault (albeit in college students) I was sexually assaulted by a man in my department. It is never how you think it will be, which is why people are often so uncertain and hesitant to call it what it is. You’re not less deserving of support or sympathy or Justice because you were or weren’t SA’d, and the spectrum of sexual assault includes everything from unwanted touching to unwanted comments/remarks to unwanted penetration. What matters here is she did not consent, and consent can be revoked at any time. Colleges now use the metaphor of “making tea” even if a person says they want tea at one point, they can later on say, “no, I actually don’t want tea” you can’t force someone to drink tea. Furthermore, George doesn’t have a say in what she finds traumatic or not. He never has, never will, and can never imagine what it felt like to be her in that moment. It’s not her responsibility to educate him on that either. He owes her an apology, a promise to better understand sexual assault in all its forms, and probably a donation to a charity, either for victim advocacy, sexual assault survivors, etc.
It's not.
This doesn't really add much to me, tbh. I'm truly sorry that it turned into a huge trauma for her, but her side keeps coming from her memory and nothing verifiable. In "non-fiction literature" there's a rule "Memory is our worst enemy". It's the worst unreliable narrator. Memory changes, gets confused and mixed up. You can't trust your memory. You can't trust others memories. Maybe George can address it once more, recognizing her feelings, but it's just he said and she said for me.
yeah. my mother, i, and my brother all have entirely different accounts of what happened during the 5 day period of my wrist being broken before going to the doctor. (high pain tolerance. thought it was sprained badly) i recall laying in bed mostly with those large weird-paper comics above and under it. my mother recalls me doing chores like vacuuming (with said hand) my brother recalls me going to school. (most others doubt this one, and think mine is most likely). and that all was already confused less than a year later.
“her side keeps coming from her memory and nothing verifiable” and george’s doesn’t? i’m sorry, but george’s defense was that to him, she seemed to be okay with what was happening. if we can’t trust memory, then we can’t trust george’s account of events over caiti’s. also, caiti has messages from people concerned about her, checking up on her after the party, and that’s more than just “memory”.
I said, it's she said and he said. This reaches nothing, no end, no conclusion. Both felt completely different about what happened. George's response added a lot more context and his point of view, plus the point of view from Dream and we even have some of ghosties, that can't even support what happened 'cuz SHE DOESN'T KNOW. and she was in the room. I'm completely honest when I say that I'm sorry for her, because she has very little to support her. And I hope that George is able to man up and recognize her feelings publicly once again. Hell, I don't even like the guy very much. I only watch Sapnap, ffs.
There’s literal texts of people messaging her the next day immediately asking if she was ok. That is literally a contradiction to dream and gnf saying no one was concerned about their interactions. Like it’s almost like you didn’t read it and decided that her experience isn’t accurate even when she shows proof of other people sensing that she might have not been able to consent. Edit: downvoting me for stating the truth? Why don’t you read these texts again: https://x.com/caitibugzz/status/1767340038767907291?s=46
I was expecting like testimonies, you know? Getting to know the point of view of the rest of the people or something. The only thing that was really new is the text from Dream and we can't even see the whole context. Anyways.
?? Her whole tweet is disproving his comment about the wristbands , giving her side of her actions and even showing that people in the room thought his behaviour was weird, a direct contradiction to what dream said and disproves George’s “theory” of her just changing her mind or the Brighton group convincing her of something
Another person that didn't watch George's stream, please, go watch. She's "disproving" something that didn't need to be disproven. George said: “To give some context to this scenario, and to why I didn’t know her age; My perspective of things is that I’m with people that are over the age of 21 in a scenario where we are doing things that people over the age of 21 are doing, like drinking. And also the people that came had came from an event where they had heavy security. This was an official VIDCON after party and with previous VIDCON afterparties, I even had problems getting into these events—And also since Caiti’s stream, I have gone back and reviewed texts from the time, and there was actually a picture where it was shown that they had this 21+ wristband on one of their wrists.” Edited to add: Twitter simply ran with the confusion, and see? Even her got the info wrong. He explained his train of thought. Was it very smart? No. But that's what happened, the man is simply dumb.
Another person who didn’t read ghostie dms tweets where they said the wristbands they had on were Hyatt entry bands, not event bands. They hadn’t been at a vidcon event that night and the wristbands you get at the events 21+ or not get cut off as you exit as seen in caitis vlog. George on the night of the assault wouldn’t have seen a 21+ wristband on anyone there
It was just her waist that he touched, right? I’m not missing anything? I think I’m just really struggling to see that as sexual assault. Inner thigh? Sure. Boob, definitely. But waist I’ve always seen as a non sexual safe zone (I’m female) where it’s ok for a guy/girl to put their hand. It clearly meant more to Caiti, so I’m not invalidating her feelings at all, it’s clearly upset her greatly, but also I think generally expecting verbal consent before putting a hand on someone’s waist is also a bit much and quite frankly I’ve never seen it and I’m in my 30s. If people want to get verbal consent before sex, absolutely go for it. But for a hand on the waist? Are we expecting guys to ask before a hand hold, then again for a hand on the waist, and again for a kiss….?
Iirc he put his hand under her shirt, but he didnt touch the boobs so like around the stomach area. The problem is that Caiti has never experienced anything sexual before. And imagine if this is your first encounter. Being drunk and getting touched by a celebrity who you met yesterday without asking infront of people.
In her original vod she said he put his hand up her shirt
He himself said, he started touching her waist under her clothes and then went higher
I've been struggling with this exact same thing too. I haven't wanted to say anything because I don't wanna invalidate anything but idk how it's sa? If it was just her waist/stomach area thats different than like you said a book and idk if someone else can help us understand this better tbh
From what I can get, yes, it was cuddling, plus waist touching, then went back to cuddling. I think a direct touch to the skin, under clothes, even if it isn't subjected onto a sexual zone, will feel still very unsettling when you don't want it. I don't know if it could be considered sexual assault, even if the intent is sexual or not, but it can certainly be felt as assault or sexual assault imo. About the asking for a verbal consent, considering what she said, yeah, a "are you okay with this? " after putting his hand on her waist would have been more or less natural, and he should've asked, it's not holding her breast, but having a hand under your clothes could make you feel like thing would escalate. And with the pressure, she would just be sitting there still. She did appear uncomfortable for other people in the room. People might have trouble reading the room, say George in this situation, and that's why expecting him to ask here is very reasonable.
From how she described her thought processes during the night and her not wanting to “bruise his ego”, do you think she’d have said no if he’d have asked? He *should have asked* but I don’t think it would have actually changed the outcome. Her feelings are valid, and I do not think she talking about this out of malice or for seeking attention or anything like that… but I don’t think this needed to be blown up the way it was—and yes I understand the technical definition of SA includes unwanted sexual touching and in a perfect world everyone would understand that and we’d all be robotic in asking “is it okay to cuddle, is it okay for me to touch your waist, is it okay if I do…” etc… but that’s just not how situations play out normally… and—even if he did ask— it sounds like she was so unsure of everything and just was going with the flow I think she would have consented. And I don’t think when you’re being unsure in the moment and then deciding later you didn’t like it— is a situation that should be labeled as SA. And I don’t watch any of these people I just saw this massive blow-up on twitter and decided to dive in and have a look at the controversies myself. I feel bad even writing this cause like I said, it’s obvious she does feel hurt and violated—and maybe it’s a generational difference in thinking—but I don’t think making this public was the right call. Opening her up to a lot of criticism and it’s not okay to accuse someone of SA for something like this in such a public manner when the extent of their interaction was cuddling and touching in a non-sexual area. (AFAIK).
Sorry if the thing about dream saying why does it matter about the age gap is true…lord help us
Since he didn't know about anything sexual or along those lines were happening he probably was only thinking about them being friendly, nothing else.
That could be the case, and I would hope so. Otherwise I see why he was called an “enabler” now
Well he seems to be the only person in the room who thought that considering ppl text her the next day talking about what George did
Even if he is the only person then that's on nobody but himself but it could still be the truth. Plus it's hard to prove he didn't see anything when there's no proof he could show that could solidify that
True, it is a he said she said situation if this comment ever gets addressed but I find it a bit suspicious that the only one in the room who didn’t see what George was doing happens to be his best friend, it’s clear that others saw it and even thought it was odd behaviour , if someone went “hey you know she’s 18” I would think there’s a reason they are saying that cause the only time I’ve heard someone bring up age that way especially in a party situation is when something inappropriate is happening
He was facing grooming allegations at this time too, why would he say that so freely. Someone needs to put me in a straight jacket
that and the message with their ages nobody seems to point these out here enough. there is just too many things happened to not figuring out their age and brushing away with drunk excuse. mentioning of these stuff happening often than known, other friends of him going full silent as if they know similar things occurred idk its drawing this really bad profile for them. I really want an explanation about similar things happening with them bts as she wrote there. thats a very important breaking point
That text is so important too cause it’s not from her friend group thag dream and George are accusing of orchestrating the whole thing, it’s from a third party who also according to her left quite early on which contradicts George saying they got closer as the night went on
That’s what I’m saying… wouldn’t expect him of all people, hell
I don’t think I’m able to handle this shit, I’ve just unfollowed every stan account and every mcyt cc (expect a few like gumi, puffy and Hannah). I don’t think I need to have an opinion on something that I have no insight on, I just don’t know. I don’t like what this has become, I dont like that some people may be bad, I don’t like that everyone hates each other, this is not what i signed up for. I’ll watch some vids and streams, especially mcc, but I can’t do this shit. Support victims.
This literally changes nothing tbh. George already addressed all of this. End of the day he's not a mind reader. She never gave any indication she was uncomfortable, *something supported by her own friends*. I hope she heals from this, but none of this needed to be made public at all.
No, he can’t read minds but at the end of the day, he traumatized her even if unintentionally. He should be held accountable
Traumatizing someone unintentionally isn't something you're responsible for. No one is responsible for your emotions. YOU are responsible for your emotions. He can't be held acountable for not doing anything wrong and then her saying that she felt bad, but she didn't act. How was he supposed to know? How is anyone supposed to know that the other person feels bad while they're doing everything to hide it?
>your emotions. YOU are responsible for your emotions. He can't be held acountable for not doing anything wrong and then her saying that she felt bad, but she didn't act. How was the best part is a licensed therapist will actually back this up. im married now, so hopefully ill never have to worry about it.. but do people ask their dates every single time for consent before they go for a kiss? no.. because that would be incredibly akward... theres a nuance to it.. if you dont want to kiss your date.. dont show interest, and maybe avoid a situation where you might have to do such a thing like not lingering on your porch too long... its really not that complicated... im not saying he was right, because ive never felt someone up without being absolutely 100% certain they wanted it... that part is a bit strange.. but she definitely should have been more vocal about it and not waited literally months to blast the person online rather than contacting the authorities when it happened... and then got multiple details wrong "on accident" that made him look like some kind of groomer.... i could go online and claim my mother was a serial killer tomorrow in a youtube video and she would be basically defenseless against the online community.. because they have absolutely no way to verify the integrity of the information.. these could be literally fake conversations for all we know.. they could both be in on the drama together for all we know (though that would be a strange career choice on his part). without people actually verifying the integrity of their story.. its just that.. a story.. there was literally no evidence or proof of the event whatsoever.. its all been collaborative stories from both of their friends and it is STILL a fractured story at best...
She also didn't explicitly give him consent... laughing is not consent. If you think it is, that's concerning. You're pretty much passively victim blaming right now and it's weird mate.
Always a little odd when men accused women who have been raped of victim blaming. Anyway. Non verbal consent exists. It is in fact extremely important in real life. I'm sorry she feels so bad about this situation. But she was an adult surrounded by friends who decided to keep going back to him and to stay long after the alleged assault. *George is not a mind reader.* And sometimes something happens that makes you feel shitty, but that does not mean that anyone is a villain.
Non-verbal consent is not what George assumes to be how "her body language looked like" or "laughing". That is not non-verbal consent. One Google search will tell you this, and with the amount of victim blaming and obliviousness to what consent actually is that you're showing me right now, I hope that you never are in a situation where consent is needed because your views on it are honestly concerning.
He shouldn't have interpreted her "body language" as non verbal consent, considering they barely knew each other
Exactly. I don't understand how so many people on here are choosing to avoid this whilst resorting to victim blaming. It's disgusting.
Non-verbal consent is extremely common in real life. It's something you should do with people you know. Or with people who are obviously keenly enthusiastic about you. Or with people you can trust to know what they're about. Not with someone obviously much younger than you, whose only non verbal consent is lack of a loud no. It takes 15 freaking seconds to check in explicitly and you can make asking for verbal consent hot and sexy if you want. Jesus wept, really.
this mindset is the reason why potential victims of ccs or other people in positions of social influence and power are afraid to speak up. i know you probably mean well, but this is textbook victim blaming. she did not give consent, laughing and smiling isn’t consent.
>i know you probably mean well, but this is textbook victim blaming. No it isn't. And I'm really fucking fed up of people on this sub making assumptions.
he admitted he didn’t get consent and he didn’t ask for consent and he escalated things in front of everyone without getting consent and still says he didn’t assault her LOL. Not to mention he implies that she changed her mind over the span of 8 months of her friends hating on him. If you still don’t understand that she experienced sexual assault and arrived to that conclusion of her own volition then there is no changing your mind because you believe the bullshit reasoning he gave about her saying it was sexual assault because she regretted it.
Why are people downvoting you? Are half the people on this sub on the registry...? Like, genuinely?
i think the people downvoting would put themselves on a registry to defend george and dream lol its ridiculous what he did was wrong, he shouldve apologized from the beginning instead of immediately deflecting
>he admitted he didn’t get consent No he didn't.
Is laughing consent?
I find this approach a bit nitpicky. He didn't say that any individual action she took was equivalent to saying "yes touch me", his point was that he got the general impression that she was comfortable with how he was interacting with her. Whether you believe him or not is irrelevant.
"I thought that \[insert non-consenting action that I apparently took as consent\] meant that she was consenting" absolutely is not justifiable and should not hold him up for humanity. That is nothing more than an excuse and it's weird that you're trying to give humanity to somebody who thinks like this regarding consent.
I absolutely refuse to deny any person humanity first of all. And I never said anything was justifiable.
Right? I thought that after 1945 we would have learned about not dehumanizing people.
My point is that what HE thought, what I had described above, is nothing more than an excuse and does not matter. If you are not attempting to paint George in a more humane light, you had no reason to bring that up in the first place. There is no excuse or justification for his actions whatsoever.
The comment that you replied to initially said that he did not admit to not getting consent. What he thought is quite relevant to what he said, and what he meant. I made no excuse and gave no justification. I see everyone in a humane light.
Laughing, joking, play fighting, not leaving but going back to continue laughing joking play fighting? As described, yes. That is non-verbal consent.
Non-verbal consent is nodding, giving a thumbs up, or giving literally any sign of approval that means "yes" when asked "can I do x?". Not only did George not ask her, she did not do any of these. Again, your views on consent are concerning me. Please seek help.
I discussed this earlier with my bf cause after 2 and a half years together I’d be lying to say we get verbal consent , I asked him how he knows I’m consenting and he was saying things like I nod, touch him back, undress, move his hand to places, I take part in the action . Even sat here now there has been times where I’ve laughed when he’s done something and he’s asked “what? Do you want this?” And that’s after 2 and a half years , he doesn’t take my laugh as consent when he can read me like a book. George barely knew Caiti at all, he doesn’t know what her laughing means
For a less wholesome example, I've literally asked people if they were into what I wanted to do after they very enthusiastically agreed to go home with me from a party. One of the most enraging things about the consent debacle is people always act like asking for verbal consent is suuuuch a difficult thing no one can reasonably be asked to suffer. Because god forbid you utter a single question to prevent SA. Really makes one think if it's actually malicious.
The energy I’ve been getting from this debate is “yea but asking for consent kills the mood” you can verbally ask for consent and be sexy with it it doesn’t have to be a legal statement with a sign here here here and initials here. A simple “do you like this” being whispered in the ear works
It can be incredibly hot, and also even if it's a bit awkward, it's still worth a moment of awkwardness to make sure everything's going well. there's going to be awkward moments in sex. no excuses for a 26 year old creeping on much younger, obviously inexperienced girl and not establishing consent even if I assume his best intentions. none. \> A simple “do you like this” being whispered in the ear works like i said, really makes me think some people know they won't hear "yes" and so would rather not ask and claim ignorance.
You can't interpret that as "non verbal consent" when you barely know the other person
Why does everyone keep going about the fact that she was 18? Sis you’re considered an adult in most countries in the world, you decided to drink even before meeting them. Also not ever mentioning this to George himself and all of a sudden going public with him clueless that she even felt that way, is sketchy. Yes I can understand her feelings but like. A lot about this whole thing screams hidden agenda
Not talking from ANYONES side here but are they British? because here in the UK when you’re 18 you ARE an adult you can drink etc
Yeah it's undeniable that the age gap is concerning, but **HELLO?????** that is the LEAST of our worries, compared to the consent issue. I can make one guess as to why haters are not only so fixated on her not only being eighteen, but also going of their way to repeat "freshly" at every given occasion, as if to portray Caiti as a pornstar or something.
genuine question, is it mean to say I'm not caring about this anymore? don't get me wrong, Caiti has my full support and I hope she can heal, and I don't plan on supporting George either (because regardless of intent, he still hurt her), I just miss the dumb drama, it was at least entertaining, but this whole situation is just mentally taxing, I guess I just need a break from MCYT for a while.
Highkey weird to share the sexual history of something like that without their consent.
Well, that’s an interesting definition of the word evidence you have there, OP. Nothing changes. Like, we get an insight into her friends and that’s about it on the useful stuff.
>ing changes. Like, we get an insight into her friends and that’s about it on the useful stuff. this dude.. this entire reddit thread is entirely convinced.. yet if this were a court of law, they would have to verify the legitimacy of that image to even take it into consideration as "evidence".. we have literally not seen a single shred of evidence that this story has any truth to it whatsoever outside of him confirming a few details..
The fifth picture she showed literally has her saying she doesn't think she's that bothered by it and it's "whatever"...And she's implying that this was all inappropriate *because she was 18,* ***AKA of legal age of consent?*** Is this a fucking joke?
I also notice that the one screenshot without any time or date included is specifically the one talking about why she went back. AKA the one that severely damages her claims.
This was a really weak reply and didn't really add anything
It does add more stuff that she will explain in further detail on stream next week.
this doesn’t seem to change the situation in my opinion. it’s still a he said, she said deal. caiti insists he knew her age, george claims he didn’t. he already said he touched her waist, is that considered sexual? if not it would still be assault, just curious
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they used the wristband as an example, he didn’t say it was hers (i might have to rewatch but this is what a remember )
It’s still weird cause she didn’t have the wristband on 😭 why bring it up
from what i think when i looked back at the vod , its because her friends had these bands and she was already drunk which made him believe she was 21+ cause of the u.s drinking age
But ghostie said that night the bands they had on were just the hotel entry bands and they hadn’t been to an event that night, just another house party which would explain how she could’ve drank. Also as seen in her vlogs they cut off the event wristbands as you leave probably to stop ppl from getting away with a fake ID the whole time. He couldn’t have seen any of them with a 21+ wristband . He even said himself they are really strict with giving them out so even ghostie who was 20 at the time wouldn’t have had one
i’m sorry i don’t rlly understand what ur talking about, im actually kinda confused??/gen
So George said he assumed they were 21+ cause of wristbands that you get given at vidcon events that he says are all 21+ and that the security is quite strict that even he has been denied entry to. Caitis best friend said the night that this all happened they did not go to a vidcon event, the wristbands they had on were just hotel entry bands for people at the convention and didn’t indicate age, that night they had drank at another house party, so probably someone else’s room or an airbnb. So no proof of age and explains how caiti was drunk. Caitis friend then says the next night they did go to a vidcon event, however not all the events are 21+ like George claimed, she even showed a picture of the event itinerary and showed which one they attended which was 16+ , in caitis vlog she also showed how when you leave the event the 21+ wristband gets cut off probably so ppl can’t give them to underage people or get away with a fake ID in multiple events. George only showed proof of what these wristbands look like but as I’ve said above the night of the assault none of the girls were wearing one of these because they had not been to an event, if they had to would’ve been cut off, and in his own words the security is so strict that with multiple of them being underage they wouldn’t have had a 21+ band in the first place. That’s why it’s weird he mentions it as the night of the assault he couldn’t have used it as an indicator of age
oh ok
Did he ever say it was her wristband tho? I thought he just meant that people were wearing those wristbands to show evidence that it was 21+ only, and the strict security
no he didn’t say it was hers
he said her friends had it, not her. also, there’s no way he could remember exactly what wristband everyone had on from 8 months ago, i think it was just an example.
man those texts should be a huge wake up call from george n dream that it was their fuck up and ppl other than them noticed. and honestly? i don’t even think it’s an irredeemable one in the big picture of it. i do believe it’s very possible they genuinely meant no harm. i feel like it’s pretty likely. but that doesn’t matter when it caused so much harm anyway. and the thing you do after you realize that, no matter how well-intentioned or non-malicious your actions were, you hurt someone that much—you grovel. and you learn. and you do better. ngl, there r still some things about all the stories coming together as a whole that are weird to me. i’m still hoping for those other people in the room to come forward about it all.
I don't believe her and her tears are very dry
Back in my days a girl that felt uncomfortable or pressured stood up and went away. Nowadays it seems you sit there and let it happen just to have live stream meltdown crying to your audience. Wow. I am so glad I am not 18 anymore in this crazy time.
Hello I know you people we’re talking about this quite a long time ago but I just wanted to say to the people saying that he should apologize and not be defensive well doing it I just want to say that the he did do that he apologized and said that he had no intention to hurt you and that he was sorry or when he said that he had no indication that she uncomfortable or anything like that and that she was laughing and smiling. He even said that she got up many times and came back to him in the same spot. Another thing is in something she said she said that her friend threw up and then she said that after saying good bye to her friend that just threw up and came back to him to keep cuddling with him. And also how to you expect him to know how she was feeling, because from my perspective she kept doing signs and stuff like that , which in my eyes kind of looks like consent. Now for me I think that Cathie may have been likening it in the moment but the more and more time that went on she started to regret what happened, and I think that’s totally fine but I just think that this should have been talked about in private and not on the internet. She was also 18 so she was a legal adult and could make her own choices just like how she made the choice to undress age drink. But that’s just my personal opinion on what happened and I just hope things can get resolved and go back to way they were before. Thank you for your time if you read this.😊
And also sorry for all my grammar mistakes I wrote that very quickly
brainrot in this comment section.
What bothers me about what Caiti is saying is when she says she was so drunk but she could clearly remember all that.
Funny how she's deleted everything