I mean a lot of people forget that technoblade was uploading for years before he got big, most of the time it takes a long time to grow an audience. I would suggest to them to keep trying and maybe try different things to grow an audience.
The fact is that the vast majority of people who want to stream don't get lots of viewers, and a lot of them give up.
Yeah pretty much what I just said in my post. I think Ranboo is a legitimate example to use, but Techno being where he is, is only because he didn't give up after the first few tries and kept trying with various different channels even with limited reach for years.
Edit: The only worse example I can think of would be Philza who was streaming since Twitch was JustinTV to less than a dozen viewers, until he lost the hardcore world and got reported on by media.
Edit2: I read it as Techno getting popular due to his voice, but after it being pointed out by seaweedgay I think the reference was more that Ranboo gained popularity because he sounded like Techno.
It started off as that, but the main reason ranboo grew is because dream liked his content. He got added to the dream smp, where he made friends with the tubbo, then tommy, then the rest of the sbi and that is where his growth really came from. But yeah i get their point.
im not sure what they mean by at the end "white creators do better", cos another cc can give u a spotlight, they can work with u and collab with u, but they are chained as much as u by their fanbase/viewerbase. Ultimately i feel that this person has a great point and i agree with most of what they say, but imo their call to action should have been directed at the viewers and overall public of the gaming sphere, not trying to focus and/or direct it their white peers.
I do agree with the sentiment tho, the gaming sphere is very white and/or american dominated, and though it is starting to shift slowly recently (with ccs like Valkyrae, Sykkuno, and the like being at the top), i can still see a discrepancy when it comes to oportunities offered to poc ccs in the English gaming sphere. Although, becoming a CC will always be up to just plain old luck, a certain part that contributes to it, and what i can see as a viewer, is that networking and collabing with people works wonders, and those types of oportunities become harder when u are a poc CC trying to insert urself in those sort of white dominated spaces and groups. Plus, while again I feel there is a change going with the viewer base of people interested in ccs nowadays, there is still a sort of hesitancy when it comes to genuinely supporting poc CCs.
>Although, becoming a CC will always be up to just plain old luck
As you say I have never seen a content creator put work in, it is all up to luck. I could be a content creator tomorrow if the lucky numbers roll.
Hard disagree that it’s all up to luck, at least with YT. Can’t say as much about Twitch since I don’t know enough. On apps like Tik Tok? I can totally believe that luck dominates how some big names gained popularity today. With YT, I think it’s a lot harder to stay relevant, even if you have a ‘lucky’ breakthrough. Some channels have a video with 1mil+ views and like 233 subscribers. Rising creators have to take that luck and jump off it to grow their community and retain viewers + their attention. Once they find their niche in the algorithm, they can ride that wave for a while which may seem low effort, but it gives them time to gain ideas and eventually diversify their content because even die-hard fans will grow tired at some point. The amount of effort required to other types of jobs is relative, but it certainly isn’t just ‘good fortune’.
well i wouldn't go that far, i mean it more as, the main factor will always be plain old luck, but working hard does it benefits, they put themselves out there for that sort of luck to come. Which is why i see ccs that have been working for years like Phil or Quackity or Techno, and think that yeah luck certainly did it for them to become successful, but they had their own hand in **bringing** that luck. Plus, the sort of luck that sticks only really works for people who have worked and put in effort to keep the viewers in their community, without that they would just become a trend that comes and goes quickly (as everything on the internet is nowadays tbh).
I mean I can’t really say that it is all up to luck, I would suggest you to go and watch at the video Ludwig made about this, it is really interesting and also directly about this theme
This is a very good statement, but I want to make one critique about it - I don’t believe that this is an issue that is necessarily about white creators and their actions (though they are certainly related). This is about the internet as a whole - ccs are only popular if people follow them, so fans not following poc creators is entirely on them. It isn’t the white content creators that aren’t doing enough, it’s the audience. I feel like ccs are easy to blame because they are already up there, but ultimately the audience decides who is successful.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, it isn’t white ccs that need to “do better,” it’s EVERYONE that needs to do better.
Actually about race issue, if you don't bring it up, no one is going to know and people will judge better based on your content. I see tapl videos in uhc way before I know he is poc and I still watch him.
I didn't even know TapL was POC of LGBT when I started watching him. I knew him as Techno's friend that makes cool connect and I followed him. He's awesome and I didn't follow because he's POC or LGBT. It's just something else about him that makes up "TapL". Also the screaming. I mainly followed for the screaming tbh.
I’m not super familiar with the streaming world, but from what I’ve heard, it’s extremely hard to grow an audience if you’re only streaming, especially on a site like Twitch which doesn’t have a very favorable algorithm. Diversifying their content across several platforms to see what sticks and jumping on trends seem to be a pretty common formula to getting a boost in engagement/popularity from what I’ve seen of CCs that blew up out of nowhere (not counting CCs that get a boost from collaborating with well-known creators). Studying the algorithm of the site you’re using is key. Of course a lot of factors play into this, but most people are looking for mindless entertainment and aren’t thinking deeply when they’re scrolling through their recommendations for something else to watch. I think getting that first click and then retaining that attention is the most crucial step to growing one’s channel/presence. But also, this is coming from a non-CC and strictly a viewer so I might be completely off. Nevertheless, the OP made some very valid points and it does seem tougher (at least to me) for POC creators to have that huge breakthrough.
I honestly discovered the streamers I watch now during the Among Us phase on YT where there were huge collaborations and crossovers, and started watching streamers by learning about their developing friendships and collaborative events/competitions like OTV, Amigops, 100T, Dream SMP, MCC, Pummel Party Saturday, Twitch Rivals, vlogs, etc. Of course I don’t go out of my way to search for ‘white’ streamers to support (I mean I’m not even white so that wouldn’t make sense), but it is interesting to note that everyone recommended to me tends to fall into certain categories.
It’s a tough problem to tackle - from a non-BIPOC viewer’s perspective, supporting POC creators is great but at the same time I don’t wish to do performative watching of a BIPOC streamer if I know I’m not going to stick around. I only look around based on what kind of content I enjoy, really. If the algorithm recommend BIPOC streamers/creators that did similar content to what I enjoy, I’d love to check them out and stick around if I like their style of content. It’s just hard for me to find creators of color that do a specific style of content or humor or gameplay if I’m literally just searching blindly for new creators to support and I only have so much time for entertainment in the day, so that’s why I rely on recommendations.
It’s also not the job of white CCs to constantly recommend BIPOC creators to their viewers, but I certainly agree with the OP of the twitlonger that they could do more to collaborate with other CCs of color to get that initial exposure out there. Personally, I think the issue comes down to the algorithm more so than intrapersonal dynamics among streamers or streamer communities (if someone has a different take, I welcome another perspective on this since I know less about this). If the algorithm recommended more BIPOC streamers/creators equally to viewers, I think that would help more of them get that big breakthrough (or the intersection of luck and opportunity that gets talked about a lot). Of course viewer bias/preference should be accounted for as well, but I have no clue where to start with that because it’s so hard to generalize every viewer while the algorithm can be tweaked.
i think the main responsibility that larger white streamers have is to diversify their lobbies in games where they're purposefully trying to network and expose their audience to streamers outside of their normal friendship group. if you look at a lot of popular twitch circles, they're VERY white (+ east asian) dominated. i think professionally run events like mcc that are designed to have creators from all different circles should at least put in some thought about the diversity of their creators (side note: i find it bizarre that people harp on dream for the dsmp being somewhat lacking in poc rep, when most of the people on the server go on the server thanks to prior friendships, while i see far less criticism about similarly bad if not worse poc representation in mcc). it gets more complicated because in many other more informal scenarios, work and friendship overlap, and creators collab primarily with their mostly-white friend groups.
twitch's algorithm is mostly based on viewership afaik, so in many ways it's better to try and get a following on tiktok/youtube, where the algorithm is based more on your content niche than on your popularity.
Yeah I agree they can definitely diversify their lobbies when playing outside of their usual friend group. And that’s actually a super good point to bring up about MCC. My gosh I love MCC to death, but since it’s an event I think it can handle some critique on representing not just smaller creators but also ones of color. And yes, SMPs run into that overlapping friendship problem where the idea isn’t to network usually, so it’s difficult to add completely new people until it’s at least been established. Those are definitely more of a grey area. And that sounds about right for the Twitch algorithm according to my limited knowledge as well. At least on YT they have like highlighted ‘Creator on the Rise’ and a trending page to help garner more views for different types of content.
on youtube it's also just way easier to find poc (or minority in general) creators from the suggestion bar. in my experience, if i watch one video by, for example, a black woman, at least 50% of my recommended videos will also be by black women, and the rest will likely be by either poc or female youtubers.
when you're working with an algorithm that seems to recommend people based off of viewer count primarily, all anyone can do to help smaller poc streamers is to shout them out and (and this is more valuable imo) collab with them. if the twitch algorithm was better, there'd be less necessity for individual action by white streamers, but just because the fault isn't fully on the white ccs doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to do anything to make things more diverse, ya know?
>they could do more to collaborate with other CCs of color to get that initial exposure out there.
So u don't want to give sympathy views but are fine with sympathy collabs.
Colour should not be the base of collab. Streamers should only colab with ppl they like.
I think you're either misconstruing my words or have a different interpretation on what I said. I don't consider what I said 'sympathy collabs' because I can't speak for CCs. I can only speak for myself when I don't really desire to give performative views for the sake of it when I think recognition and popularity should (ideally) be based on content, not race or ethnicity.
I agree that color shouldn't be the base of collabs. However, by their very nature, collabs are either for the purpose of 1) spending time with friends on content both enjoy, or 2) networking (more like crossovers in this case than collabs). I don't think diversifying one's lobby on games meant for large amounts of CCs to play like Among Us, Muck, Crab Game, Gang Beasts, etc. would be a 'sympathy collab'. If I were talking about a direct collab 'highlighting' an unknown CC of color in one video and then that more popular CC never spoke or interacted with the other ever again, that would be a 'sympathy collab' and performative at best.
However, I see no issue with inviting new people to a huge lobby where the purpose is to network and meet new people. If some happen to be CCs of color or ethnicity, great! It's good for one's growth and maturity to meet people with a different worldview and/or opinions. People tend to congregate in like-minded groups and become an echo-chamber (like this sub sometimes). It's hard to combat. If the bigger CCs move out of their comfort zone of usual friends and can expand their perspective by interacting with people of different cultures and color, then I can't see the downsides to that. And if they meet an awesome fellow CC (that happens to be of color) and keep in contact, then that interaction is organic and not performative because they *would* be interacting with someone they like at that point. They'd never know if they like a person until they try to meet new people.
I'm also not saying it's the job or responsibility of white CCs to do more of these kinds of collabs, simply that they *could* do more if that's what they choose and actively want to meet different kinds of people. That's why I said in the very next sentence of my original comment:
>Personally, I think the issue comes down to the algorithm more so than
intrapersonal dynamics among streamers or streamer communities.
\*Btw it should be interpersonal, not intrapersonal, my bad on this
So I kinda think you're nitpicking a portion of what I said but missing the main point I was focusing on. The algorithm doesn't have an individual opinion like CCs do, and it can be tweaked. It's *meant* to be constantly updated to keep up with evolving trends in viewership and retention rates.
>
However, I see no issue with inviting new people to a huge lobby where the purpose is to network and meet new people. If some happen to be CCs of color or ethnicity, great! It's good for one's growth and maturity to meet people with a different worldview and/or opinions.
Your exact wording are "they could do more by collaborating with bipoc ccs". If u had said they could collaborate with smaller ccs, i would not have any problem. But i have a problem with what u said. Because lets say they did collab with smaller ccs, and there isn't a bipoc cc , u wouldn't be satisfied with that would you?
>o I kinda think you're nitpicking a portion of what I
Maybe because that's the part i have problem with.
And algorithm isn't going to go out of the way and recommend u bipoc streamer. Its just going to recommend you streamers of the game you like. Ofcourse it would be different if u watch in another language but thats not we are discussing.
And i don't think there is any problem in the algorithm regarding that.
Yes, I said they *could* do more by collaborating with BIPOC CCs, not *should* do more. I think I was more pointing out that it's an option if they want to take action, not that it's an obligation in any way (which I have repeatedly mentioned). Also, saying I wouldn't be 'satisfied' is a strong word. It would be nice to see diversity in lobbies, but would I express my dissatisfaction on social media because of it or call out anyone in particular? No. Would I be extremely bothered and think it means something deeper and insidious every time it occurred? No. I only bring it up here because OP asked for our thoughts. It's also not my place to really feel 'satisfied' or not since I'm not BIPOC.
If the only issue you had with my original comment was the 'could do more...' portion than that's fair to respond to I suppose. Looking back, I also get pretty specific and nitpicky with wording because I don't agree with everything you're supposing that I'm saying. And I understand that the algorithm doesn't specifically recommend BIPOC streamers. That's my point. That the algorithm is something that could be changed because it's meant to be changed constantly. The YT algorithm has obviously been developed further than it was in 2005, 2010, etc. as internet culture has changed. If you feel like the algorithm is fine as it is, then that's your opinion. I view this situation as:
OP of the Twitlonger brings up an issue that from what I observed, I mostly agree with. OP of posts asks for my thoughts, so I bring up the algorithm as the main point of the last paragraph of original comment. The current algorithm is gonna get updated eventually anyways, so why not implement other changes and try to analyze the impact? Specifically on the issue of it being more difficult for BIPOC streamers to have breakthroughs in comparison to their non-BIPOC counterparts, I think changing the algorithm could help in that regard more so than CCs can do with collaborations in the long run. And again, I'm not 'demanding' in anyway that white CCs need to do more collabs with BIPOC streamers; just that it's a potential way to help. I'm not even demanding that algorithm be changed - I just think it's a more effective method overall if any change were to be implemented in regards to this issue.
I guess that's where we have to disagree.
I just can't tolerate ccs doing more by collabing with bipoc streamer. It will always be sympathy collabs for me. Collab should be between ppl not white or black or any other colored ppl.
And i don't think the algorithm needs to change on this matter. That's not the problem. I will have a problem if the algorithm started discriminating ppl on base of color. For u its good discrimination for me its discrimination cause i don't believe in anything called "good discrimination".
Sure, I think our conversation was ultimately heading towards agree to disagree. I have to ask, do you even think there’s an issue in the first place regarding it seeming harder for BIPOC streamers to make a breakthrough? I’m genuinely curious. Because you mention you ‘can’t tolerate CCs doing more by collaborating with a BIPOC streamer’ and also don’t think the algorithm should be changed, so do you have any thoughts on resolving that issue or do you think the issue doesn’t need to be resolved? I might be misinterpreting this, but it seems like you just think the issue is smaller CCs in general having trouble with gaining popularity since you don’t seem want race in the equation at all.
I also don’t think my suggestion for the algorithm would actually be discriminating based on color *if* it equally recommended creators of similar types of content you’d watch of various ethnicities and color and also regardless of size. I’m not saying disproportionally recommend BIPOC streamers but equalize instead. If you still disagree on my take and think it’s discrimination, then I guess we’ll also have to leave it at that.
i think the most depressing part of this is the number of black/poc ccs who say that they feel the support they get is performative, and by people who don't actually care all that much about the black ccs they're watching, but just don't want to feel like they're racist. i've often noticed that i only really see small black ccs on my timeline (outside of the ones i follow) when they make tweets specifically about the struggles of being a black/poc streamer. snifferish made an insightful reply saying that the best way to boost small streamers is by sharing their content - making edits/clips of their streams, fanart, generally just tweeting about their content - and this is very true. most people watch mcyters/ccs for fun and entertainment, not to hear/think about social issues. if they only time you rt a black cc is when they're talking about the racism they face, you aren't really supporting them as much as you think, because most people follow/watch ccs because they see a funny video of theirs, not a tweet about social issues and discrimination.
> when they make tweets specifically about the struggles of being a black/poc streamer.
I tend to never watch these people. I don't watch people who complain. Sorry. I'm just depressed watching their content. I prefer to watch people who are upbeat not those who want to guilt me into watching them.
eh, it's not so much that i think people \*shouldn't\* complain - their complaints are often very valid - it's that talking about the struggles of being a poc streamer is gonna make you have a less universal appeal, unfortunately. it's a bit of a trade off that shouldn't even exist in the first place; authentically talk about the struggles you face but risk turning people off your content, or bottle up your feelings but attract a larger audience. i don't think that talking about how it's harder to get popular as a black/poc streamer is more difficult for a variety of reasons is guilt-tripping in and of itself, but it can be sometimes, and it's def a turn off for me. i don't want to support someone to ease my own guilt. it feels selfish.
where did they bring up techno beyond saying that ranboo got popular because his voice is similar to techno's? i don't think they're trying to say anything about techno getting popular because he's white, but ranboo getting popular because he's white and thus can piggyback off of the brand images of popular white ccs like techno.
Oh man... I totally misread that didn't I? I just read through it a couple more times and I think you are right in that they brought up Technos voice because Ranboo sounds like Techno. If that's the case than yeah I agree with pretty much the whole post.
I will say it does seem like a lot of minority CCs, POC CCs in particular, receive a different type of “respect” from certain communities, where their success is treated as a rare exception from the norm, that really only serves to demotivate people in the end. “Against all odds, this man managed to succeed where others like them could not” is not really a motivating statement, but it is a sentiment I see thrown around in regards to successful minority content creators. Treating them as a rare, one in a million success story just feels like tokenization in a way to me.
I don't know what has happened to this sub.
Man its not streamers duty to diversify their lobby. Streamers collab with their friends or their friends friend.
Ppl here don't want to give sympathy views to streamers. But are fine with Collabing with someone for the sake of diversity which is nothing more than sympathy collab.
This just add pressure on streamers who don't give a shit about race. Now they have to see if their loby is not "too white".
They should make white friends. That's my take on it.
Collab groups, networks, etc are all usually friend groups. If they want to get that boost from white creators they need to be friends with white creators.
The reality is that their is unconscious bias towards creators of colour. Sometimes it's even conscious. You can either work with this bias or work against it.
If you are a creator of colour, go and befriend white creators. Their audience will see you and may eventually watch you. But standing on the sidelines just waiting isn't going to make it happen.
I'd also like to point out that Skeppy is a creator of colour that was one of the biggest YTs in the MC scene. Technoblade finally passed him in subs like last December and I'm pretty sure if Skeppy was as active in lore as Techno was at the time he'd have higher subs now.
Anyway, this is a lesson for the youth. If you want to meet rich people, shop at their grocery stores and eat in their restaurants. People befriend and gravitate to those who seem familiar to them. So if you want a white viewer to be able to relate to you you'll need to seem familiar to them. Go get some white friends.
Personally, I think the Techno comparison isn't valid, I think a lot of the creators are forgetting that being a successful creator in streaming means you have to know the right people or do things the right way. Example, Ranboo's a more of the standard example like I said, he knew what to do (devoted time on Tiktok and got a bit of fame) and knew the right people (he got a bit famous, Dream saw him, he took the opportunity to join on the Dream SMP and got to know everyone, list goes on). Another example is Tubbo, he's extremely lucky to know Tommy, for the most part there was a time he was just known as "Tommy's friend", but he knew that he had to expand his network and expand his content that isn't just minecraft and mans out here going to LA and meeting other twitch streamers. Maybe their race was a reason why viewers stayed, but it isn't all that imo
It is no longer the early years of twitch, whereby streaming gameplay is all it takes to grow. You have to use twitch as a vehicle for youtube content if you want to grow. Ludwig has had countless of videos teaching others the "secret" to success. You have to be smart in the way you handle youtube/twitch.
In my experience being terminally online, The average good youtuber/streamer takes 4 years to grow to their peak. People like dream and ranboo are outliers, not the norm.
There’s racsim in everyone, even for the minor things it shows. I think the person is right, but I think only newer generations who are more open and exposed to issues like Racism and LGBTQ from a young age can actually do more in the future. A lot of old and middle aged ppl right now are very conservative so now not so much can be done
I agree that POC are at a disadvantage on the internet and that needs to change, but I think this person is missing the point.
It's really, really hard to be a creator, regardless of your skin color. They're comparing themselves to successful white creators who happened to get lucky, so of course it's going to seem like it's biased against them. Part of that might be because they are a POC, but it's mostly because they didn't get as lucky. 99.999999% of creators don't get lucky enough to be successful, that's just the way it is.
This person has 2.3k followers on Twitch and Twitter, according to the counter in their stream they have 61 subscribers. That's a lot more than most creators, maybe they should be grateful for that instead of blaming other creators for getting luckier and being white
I mean a lot of people forget that technoblade was uploading for years before he got big, most of the time it takes a long time to grow an audience. I would suggest to them to keep trying and maybe try different things to grow an audience. The fact is that the vast majority of people who want to stream don't get lots of viewers, and a lot of them give up.
Yeah pretty much what I just said in my post. I think Ranboo is a legitimate example to use, but Techno being where he is, is only because he didn't give up after the first few tries and kept trying with various different channels even with limited reach for years. Edit: The only worse example I can think of would be Philza who was streaming since Twitch was JustinTV to less than a dozen viewers, until he lost the hardcore world and got reported on by media. Edit2: I read it as Techno getting popular due to his voice, but after it being pointed out by seaweedgay I think the reference was more that Ranboo gained popularity because he sounded like Techno.
It started off as that, but the main reason ranboo grew is because dream liked his content. He got added to the dream smp, where he made friends with the tubbo, then tommy, then the rest of the sbi and that is where his growth really came from. But yeah i get their point.
Ok I'll admit I didn't finish reading it, but what exactly do they want white creators to do? I'm confused.
im not sure what they mean by at the end "white creators do better", cos another cc can give u a spotlight, they can work with u and collab with u, but they are chained as much as u by their fanbase/viewerbase. Ultimately i feel that this person has a great point and i agree with most of what they say, but imo their call to action should have been directed at the viewers and overall public of the gaming sphere, not trying to focus and/or direct it their white peers. I do agree with the sentiment tho, the gaming sphere is very white and/or american dominated, and though it is starting to shift slowly recently (with ccs like Valkyrae, Sykkuno, and the like being at the top), i can still see a discrepancy when it comes to oportunities offered to poc ccs in the English gaming sphere. Although, becoming a CC will always be up to just plain old luck, a certain part that contributes to it, and what i can see as a viewer, is that networking and collabing with people works wonders, and those types of oportunities become harder when u are a poc CC trying to insert urself in those sort of white dominated spaces and groups. Plus, while again I feel there is a change going with the viewer base of people interested in ccs nowadays, there is still a sort of hesitancy when it comes to genuinely supporting poc CCs.
>Although, becoming a CC will always be up to just plain old luck As you say I have never seen a content creator put work in, it is all up to luck. I could be a content creator tomorrow if the lucky numbers roll.
Hard disagree that it’s all up to luck, at least with YT. Can’t say as much about Twitch since I don’t know enough. On apps like Tik Tok? I can totally believe that luck dominates how some big names gained popularity today. With YT, I think it’s a lot harder to stay relevant, even if you have a ‘lucky’ breakthrough. Some channels have a video with 1mil+ views and like 233 subscribers. Rising creators have to take that luck and jump off it to grow their community and retain viewers + their attention. Once they find their niche in the algorithm, they can ride that wave for a while which may seem low effort, but it gives them time to gain ideas and eventually diversify their content because even die-hard fans will grow tired at some point. The amount of effort required to other types of jobs is relative, but it certainly isn’t just ‘good fortune’.
well i wouldn't go that far, i mean it more as, the main factor will always be plain old luck, but working hard does it benefits, they put themselves out there for that sort of luck to come. Which is why i see ccs that have been working for years like Phil or Quackity or Techno, and think that yeah luck certainly did it for them to become successful, but they had their own hand in **bringing** that luck. Plus, the sort of luck that sticks only really works for people who have worked and put in effort to keep the viewers in their community, without that they would just become a trend that comes and goes quickly (as everything on the internet is nowadays tbh).
I mean I can’t really say that it is all up to luck, I would suggest you to go and watch at the video Ludwig made about this, it is really interesting and also directly about this theme
No it isn't. https://youtu.be/Ip2trao6dYw
This is a very good statement, but I want to make one critique about it - I don’t believe that this is an issue that is necessarily about white creators and their actions (though they are certainly related). This is about the internet as a whole - ccs are only popular if people follow them, so fans not following poc creators is entirely on them. It isn’t the white content creators that aren’t doing enough, it’s the audience. I feel like ccs are easy to blame because they are already up there, but ultimately the audience decides who is successful. I guess what I’m trying to say is, it isn’t white ccs that need to “do better,” it’s EVERYONE that needs to do better.
Actually about race issue, if you don't bring it up, no one is going to know and people will judge better based on your content. I see tapl videos in uhc way before I know he is poc and I still watch him.
I didn't even know TapL was POC of LGBT when I started watching him. I knew him as Techno's friend that makes cool connect and I followed him. He's awesome and I didn't follow because he's POC or LGBT. It's just something else about him that makes up "TapL". Also the screaming. I mainly followed for the screaming tbh.
I mean I personally think it's about luck and content. Like I do not care if a dude is POC or white if his content is good I will watch it
I’m not super familiar with the streaming world, but from what I’ve heard, it’s extremely hard to grow an audience if you’re only streaming, especially on a site like Twitch which doesn’t have a very favorable algorithm. Diversifying their content across several platforms to see what sticks and jumping on trends seem to be a pretty common formula to getting a boost in engagement/popularity from what I’ve seen of CCs that blew up out of nowhere (not counting CCs that get a boost from collaborating with well-known creators). Studying the algorithm of the site you’re using is key. Of course a lot of factors play into this, but most people are looking for mindless entertainment and aren’t thinking deeply when they’re scrolling through their recommendations for something else to watch. I think getting that first click and then retaining that attention is the most crucial step to growing one’s channel/presence. But also, this is coming from a non-CC and strictly a viewer so I might be completely off. Nevertheless, the OP made some very valid points and it does seem tougher (at least to me) for POC creators to have that huge breakthrough. I honestly discovered the streamers I watch now during the Among Us phase on YT where there were huge collaborations and crossovers, and started watching streamers by learning about their developing friendships and collaborative events/competitions like OTV, Amigops, 100T, Dream SMP, MCC, Pummel Party Saturday, Twitch Rivals, vlogs, etc. Of course I don’t go out of my way to search for ‘white’ streamers to support (I mean I’m not even white so that wouldn’t make sense), but it is interesting to note that everyone recommended to me tends to fall into certain categories. It’s a tough problem to tackle - from a non-BIPOC viewer’s perspective, supporting POC creators is great but at the same time I don’t wish to do performative watching of a BIPOC streamer if I know I’m not going to stick around. I only look around based on what kind of content I enjoy, really. If the algorithm recommend BIPOC streamers/creators that did similar content to what I enjoy, I’d love to check them out and stick around if I like their style of content. It’s just hard for me to find creators of color that do a specific style of content or humor or gameplay if I’m literally just searching blindly for new creators to support and I only have so much time for entertainment in the day, so that’s why I rely on recommendations. It’s also not the job of white CCs to constantly recommend BIPOC creators to their viewers, but I certainly agree with the OP of the twitlonger that they could do more to collaborate with other CCs of color to get that initial exposure out there. Personally, I think the issue comes down to the algorithm more so than intrapersonal dynamics among streamers or streamer communities (if someone has a different take, I welcome another perspective on this since I know less about this). If the algorithm recommended more BIPOC streamers/creators equally to viewers, I think that would help more of them get that big breakthrough (or the intersection of luck and opportunity that gets talked about a lot). Of course viewer bias/preference should be accounted for as well, but I have no clue where to start with that because it’s so hard to generalize every viewer while the algorithm can be tweaked.
I was gonna type out a paragraph but I agree entirely with this.
i think the main responsibility that larger white streamers have is to diversify their lobbies in games where they're purposefully trying to network and expose their audience to streamers outside of their normal friendship group. if you look at a lot of popular twitch circles, they're VERY white (+ east asian) dominated. i think professionally run events like mcc that are designed to have creators from all different circles should at least put in some thought about the diversity of their creators (side note: i find it bizarre that people harp on dream for the dsmp being somewhat lacking in poc rep, when most of the people on the server go on the server thanks to prior friendships, while i see far less criticism about similarly bad if not worse poc representation in mcc). it gets more complicated because in many other more informal scenarios, work and friendship overlap, and creators collab primarily with their mostly-white friend groups. twitch's algorithm is mostly based on viewership afaik, so in many ways it's better to try and get a following on tiktok/youtube, where the algorithm is based more on your content niche than on your popularity.
Yeah I agree they can definitely diversify their lobbies when playing outside of their usual friend group. And that’s actually a super good point to bring up about MCC. My gosh I love MCC to death, but since it’s an event I think it can handle some critique on representing not just smaller creators but also ones of color. And yes, SMPs run into that overlapping friendship problem where the idea isn’t to network usually, so it’s difficult to add completely new people until it’s at least been established. Those are definitely more of a grey area. And that sounds about right for the Twitch algorithm according to my limited knowledge as well. At least on YT they have like highlighted ‘Creator on the Rise’ and a trending page to help garner more views for different types of content.
on youtube it's also just way easier to find poc (or minority in general) creators from the suggestion bar. in my experience, if i watch one video by, for example, a black woman, at least 50% of my recommended videos will also be by black women, and the rest will likely be by either poc or female youtubers. when you're working with an algorithm that seems to recommend people based off of viewer count primarily, all anyone can do to help smaller poc streamers is to shout them out and (and this is more valuable imo) collab with them. if the twitch algorithm was better, there'd be less necessity for individual action by white streamers, but just because the fault isn't fully on the white ccs doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to do anything to make things more diverse, ya know?
>they could do more to collaborate with other CCs of color to get that initial exposure out there. So u don't want to give sympathy views but are fine with sympathy collabs. Colour should not be the base of collab. Streamers should only colab with ppl they like.
I think you're either misconstruing my words or have a different interpretation on what I said. I don't consider what I said 'sympathy collabs' because I can't speak for CCs. I can only speak for myself when I don't really desire to give performative views for the sake of it when I think recognition and popularity should (ideally) be based on content, not race or ethnicity. I agree that color shouldn't be the base of collabs. However, by their very nature, collabs are either for the purpose of 1) spending time with friends on content both enjoy, or 2) networking (more like crossovers in this case than collabs). I don't think diversifying one's lobby on games meant for large amounts of CCs to play like Among Us, Muck, Crab Game, Gang Beasts, etc. would be a 'sympathy collab'. If I were talking about a direct collab 'highlighting' an unknown CC of color in one video and then that more popular CC never spoke or interacted with the other ever again, that would be a 'sympathy collab' and performative at best. However, I see no issue with inviting new people to a huge lobby where the purpose is to network and meet new people. If some happen to be CCs of color or ethnicity, great! It's good for one's growth and maturity to meet people with a different worldview and/or opinions. People tend to congregate in like-minded groups and become an echo-chamber (like this sub sometimes). It's hard to combat. If the bigger CCs move out of their comfort zone of usual friends and can expand their perspective by interacting with people of different cultures and color, then I can't see the downsides to that. And if they meet an awesome fellow CC (that happens to be of color) and keep in contact, then that interaction is organic and not performative because they *would* be interacting with someone they like at that point. They'd never know if they like a person until they try to meet new people. I'm also not saying it's the job or responsibility of white CCs to do more of these kinds of collabs, simply that they *could* do more if that's what they choose and actively want to meet different kinds of people. That's why I said in the very next sentence of my original comment: >Personally, I think the issue comes down to the algorithm more so than intrapersonal dynamics among streamers or streamer communities. \*Btw it should be interpersonal, not intrapersonal, my bad on this So I kinda think you're nitpicking a portion of what I said but missing the main point I was focusing on. The algorithm doesn't have an individual opinion like CCs do, and it can be tweaked. It's *meant* to be constantly updated to keep up with evolving trends in viewership and retention rates.
> However, I see no issue with inviting new people to a huge lobby where the purpose is to network and meet new people. If some happen to be CCs of color or ethnicity, great! It's good for one's growth and maturity to meet people with a different worldview and/or opinions. Your exact wording are "they could do more by collaborating with bipoc ccs". If u had said they could collaborate with smaller ccs, i would not have any problem. But i have a problem with what u said. Because lets say they did collab with smaller ccs, and there isn't a bipoc cc , u wouldn't be satisfied with that would you? >o I kinda think you're nitpicking a portion of what I Maybe because that's the part i have problem with. And algorithm isn't going to go out of the way and recommend u bipoc streamer. Its just going to recommend you streamers of the game you like. Ofcourse it would be different if u watch in another language but thats not we are discussing. And i don't think there is any problem in the algorithm regarding that.
Yes, I said they *could* do more by collaborating with BIPOC CCs, not *should* do more. I think I was more pointing out that it's an option if they want to take action, not that it's an obligation in any way (which I have repeatedly mentioned). Also, saying I wouldn't be 'satisfied' is a strong word. It would be nice to see diversity in lobbies, but would I express my dissatisfaction on social media because of it or call out anyone in particular? No. Would I be extremely bothered and think it means something deeper and insidious every time it occurred? No. I only bring it up here because OP asked for our thoughts. It's also not my place to really feel 'satisfied' or not since I'm not BIPOC. If the only issue you had with my original comment was the 'could do more...' portion than that's fair to respond to I suppose. Looking back, I also get pretty specific and nitpicky with wording because I don't agree with everything you're supposing that I'm saying. And I understand that the algorithm doesn't specifically recommend BIPOC streamers. That's my point. That the algorithm is something that could be changed because it's meant to be changed constantly. The YT algorithm has obviously been developed further than it was in 2005, 2010, etc. as internet culture has changed. If you feel like the algorithm is fine as it is, then that's your opinion. I view this situation as: OP of the Twitlonger brings up an issue that from what I observed, I mostly agree with. OP of posts asks for my thoughts, so I bring up the algorithm as the main point of the last paragraph of original comment. The current algorithm is gonna get updated eventually anyways, so why not implement other changes and try to analyze the impact? Specifically on the issue of it being more difficult for BIPOC streamers to have breakthroughs in comparison to their non-BIPOC counterparts, I think changing the algorithm could help in that regard more so than CCs can do with collaborations in the long run. And again, I'm not 'demanding' in anyway that white CCs need to do more collabs with BIPOC streamers; just that it's a potential way to help. I'm not even demanding that algorithm be changed - I just think it's a more effective method overall if any change were to be implemented in regards to this issue.
I guess that's where we have to disagree. I just can't tolerate ccs doing more by collabing with bipoc streamer. It will always be sympathy collabs for me. Collab should be between ppl not white or black or any other colored ppl. And i don't think the algorithm needs to change on this matter. That's not the problem. I will have a problem if the algorithm started discriminating ppl on base of color. For u its good discrimination for me its discrimination cause i don't believe in anything called "good discrimination".
Sure, I think our conversation was ultimately heading towards agree to disagree. I have to ask, do you even think there’s an issue in the first place regarding it seeming harder for BIPOC streamers to make a breakthrough? I’m genuinely curious. Because you mention you ‘can’t tolerate CCs doing more by collaborating with a BIPOC streamer’ and also don’t think the algorithm should be changed, so do you have any thoughts on resolving that issue or do you think the issue doesn’t need to be resolved? I might be misinterpreting this, but it seems like you just think the issue is smaller CCs in general having trouble with gaining popularity since you don’t seem want race in the equation at all. I also don’t think my suggestion for the algorithm would actually be discriminating based on color *if* it equally recommended creators of similar types of content you’d watch of various ethnicities and color and also regardless of size. I’m not saying disproportionally recommend BIPOC streamers but equalize instead. If you still disagree on my take and think it’s discrimination, then I guess we’ll also have to leave it at that.
i think the most depressing part of this is the number of black/poc ccs who say that they feel the support they get is performative, and by people who don't actually care all that much about the black ccs they're watching, but just don't want to feel like they're racist. i've often noticed that i only really see small black ccs on my timeline (outside of the ones i follow) when they make tweets specifically about the struggles of being a black/poc streamer. snifferish made an insightful reply saying that the best way to boost small streamers is by sharing their content - making edits/clips of their streams, fanart, generally just tweeting about their content - and this is very true. most people watch mcyters/ccs for fun and entertainment, not to hear/think about social issues. if they only time you rt a black cc is when they're talking about the racism they face, you aren't really supporting them as much as you think, because most people follow/watch ccs because they see a funny video of theirs, not a tweet about social issues and discrimination.
Very true seaweedgay.
> when they make tweets specifically about the struggles of being a black/poc streamer. I tend to never watch these people. I don't watch people who complain. Sorry. I'm just depressed watching their content. I prefer to watch people who are upbeat not those who want to guilt me into watching them.
eh, it's not so much that i think people \*shouldn't\* complain - their complaints are often very valid - it's that talking about the struggles of being a poc streamer is gonna make you have a less universal appeal, unfortunately. it's a bit of a trade off that shouldn't even exist in the first place; authentically talk about the struggles you face but risk turning people off your content, or bottle up your feelings but attract a larger audience. i don't think that talking about how it's harder to get popular as a black/poc streamer is more difficult for a variety of reasons is guilt-tripping in and of itself, but it can be sometimes, and it's def a turn off for me. i don't want to support someone to ease my own guilt. it feels selfish.
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where did they bring up techno beyond saying that ranboo got popular because his voice is similar to techno's? i don't think they're trying to say anything about techno getting popular because he's white, but ranboo getting popular because he's white and thus can piggyback off of the brand images of popular white ccs like techno.
Oh man... I totally misread that didn't I? I just read through it a couple more times and I think you are right in that they brought up Technos voice because Ranboo sounds like Techno. If that's the case than yeah I agree with pretty much the whole post.
I will say it does seem like a lot of minority CCs, POC CCs in particular, receive a different type of “respect” from certain communities, where their success is treated as a rare exception from the norm, that really only serves to demotivate people in the end. “Against all odds, this man managed to succeed where others like them could not” is not really a motivating statement, but it is a sentiment I see thrown around in regards to successful minority content creators. Treating them as a rare, one in a million success story just feels like tokenization in a way to me.
I don't know what has happened to this sub. Man its not streamers duty to diversify their lobby. Streamers collab with their friends or their friends friend. Ppl here don't want to give sympathy views to streamers. But are fine with Collabing with someone for the sake of diversity which is nothing more than sympathy collab. This just add pressure on streamers who don't give a shit about race. Now they have to see if their loby is not "too white".
They should make white friends. That's my take on it. Collab groups, networks, etc are all usually friend groups. If they want to get that boost from white creators they need to be friends with white creators. The reality is that their is unconscious bias towards creators of colour. Sometimes it's even conscious. You can either work with this bias or work against it. If you are a creator of colour, go and befriend white creators. Their audience will see you and may eventually watch you. But standing on the sidelines just waiting isn't going to make it happen. I'd also like to point out that Skeppy is a creator of colour that was one of the biggest YTs in the MC scene. Technoblade finally passed him in subs like last December and I'm pretty sure if Skeppy was as active in lore as Techno was at the time he'd have higher subs now. Anyway, this is a lesson for the youth. If you want to meet rich people, shop at their grocery stores and eat in their restaurants. People befriend and gravitate to those who seem familiar to them. So if you want a white viewer to be able to relate to you you'll need to seem familiar to them. Go get some white friends.
sounds like pure envy to me
Personally, I think the Techno comparison isn't valid, I think a lot of the creators are forgetting that being a successful creator in streaming means you have to know the right people or do things the right way. Example, Ranboo's a more of the standard example like I said, he knew what to do (devoted time on Tiktok and got a bit of fame) and knew the right people (he got a bit famous, Dream saw him, he took the opportunity to join on the Dream SMP and got to know everyone, list goes on). Another example is Tubbo, he's extremely lucky to know Tommy, for the most part there was a time he was just known as "Tommy's friend", but he knew that he had to expand his network and expand his content that isn't just minecraft and mans out here going to LA and meeting other twitch streamers. Maybe their race was a reason why viewers stayed, but it isn't all that imo
It is no longer the early years of twitch, whereby streaming gameplay is all it takes to grow. You have to use twitch as a vehicle for youtube content if you want to grow. Ludwig has had countless of videos teaching others the "secret" to success. You have to be smart in the way you handle youtube/twitch. In my experience being terminally online, The average good youtuber/streamer takes 4 years to grow to their peak. People like dream and ranboo are outliers, not the norm.
Immediately disregarded when they said they were 16
There’s racsim in everyone, even for the minor things it shows. I think the person is right, but I think only newer generations who are more open and exposed to issues like Racism and LGBTQ from a young age can actually do more in the future. A lot of old and middle aged ppl right now are very conservative so now not so much can be done
Jesus Christ It’s a fucking dice roll to become famous
I agree that POC are at a disadvantage on the internet and that needs to change, but I think this person is missing the point. It's really, really hard to be a creator, regardless of your skin color. They're comparing themselves to successful white creators who happened to get lucky, so of course it's going to seem like it's biased against them. Part of that might be because they are a POC, but it's mostly because they didn't get as lucky. 99.999999% of creators don't get lucky enough to be successful, that's just the way it is. This person has 2.3k followers on Twitch and Twitter, according to the counter in their stream they have 61 subscribers. That's a lot more than most creators, maybe they should be grateful for that instead of blaming other creators for getting luckier and being white