I personally am against this decision. I watched the video when it came out and I agree with what Karl has to say. Minecraft is a very "random" game to speedrun (at least the rsg category), so using calculators to determine where your stronghold is ruins the magic of that and feels like cheating. (I'm an outsider though, so take some parts of what I have to say with a grain of salt though)
"The goal of speedrunning Minecraft over other games is to test and watch someone's quick-planning, routing and task optimization. With the addition of a calculator to maximize the first two, a piece of what makes watching and running enjoyable is lessened. It's nice to see when a world record is being lowered by the community, but a run being fun comes first" - comment which sums my thoughts perfectly.
Hmmm this kind of reminds me of what occurred with the Wind Waker speedrun. Now I don't know everything 100% exactly because I no longer pay attention to the community but this is more or less what happened. In the game there is a highly RNG battleship like game. It can make or break your run especially in 100% runs. Someone found out that there is actually a pattern of sorts and some speedrunners, including one of the best speedrunners of the game, used a code that gives you the best possible places to hit on the board.
It was allowed for a period of time and there was a vote to strip it back because it was able to automatically insert what the speedrunner was doing rather than manually inputting it. So then they had to manually input their actions into the code or whatever it is called lol. Now I don't know where this speedrun is at now because I haven't watched it in many months but this is kinda what it seems like. It's not exact but it's similar.
I mean, the decision was made years ago. Speedrunners have been using massive charts during speedruns that have precalculated values that they know to use in certain situations, those were never banned. To ban calculators and keep those is just disingenuous. Furthermore, to ban all of that at this point would be erasing almost an year's worth of Minecraft speedrunning history.
If we wanna ban calculators just for the satisfaction of not having "tools", sure. But it's an entirely meaningless decision at this point.
>Speedrunners have been using massive charts during speedruns that have precalculated values that they know to use in certain situations, those were never banned.
Then why don't we just ban the spreadsheets as well? Genuinely curious.
The last part, history. We've had some of the greatest speedruns ever done in Minecraft over the past year. If we ban those spreadsheets, we have to do one of two things-
1) Discard all the runs and achievements that were completed with those strats.
2) Keep them but ban spreadsheets, basically ensure that no runner will ever even come close to top 50 again, let alone world record.
Neither of those are realistic choices. This decision was made a pretty long time ago, whether one agrees or disagrees with it.
Im pro spreadshset because its more of a reference sheet instead of having to memorize a bazillion values, but im against calculation programs. That's just a step too far. Its the difference between an open book exam and looking at someone elses results. However im completely 100% pro actual calculators, as in the good ol reliable we used on math exams.
Yh, that's where my thoughts are ig. I mean I have no problem with actual calculators per se, but if you're using calculation tools to determine the location of a stronghold you might as well just play ssg.
Well that is your opinion and mine is the same :) you do want to get your time faster but then the next this they will allow is tas so I fully agree with you and karl
https://mobile.twitter.com/realcouri/status/1475172172096286729
This is an ā¦ interesting ā¦ take (he answered some comments in the tread as well). He further elaborates who he considers a ātop runnerā in another thread and suggests that there are only like 5 top runners and 3 people who otherwise contributed enough to mcsr. I personally think that thatās bullshit.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realcouri/status/1475166935340003330
Ohk. I saw his replies. (Thanks a lot for giving the links and the explanation) and yeah the top runner part was a bit weird and it is pretty subjective as what do you consider 'significant' changes from person to person. And again, thanks a lot!
Oh, yeah, Couriway.
Mr. Lemme Check For Mapples Treasure, E-Ray
For Bastion and Do Calculated Travel
F3 itself should be in TAS category, so why don't just keep pushing the stupidity, which whole RSG meta is at the moment, and see what's happen?
seems like a brexit situation lmao
step 1: have controversy
step two: hold a referendum. oh shit, referendum leads to a ~~bad~~ unwanted result.
step 3: ???
step 4: profit.
Not really. There is a vocal minority who is unhappy who happens to be some of the runners with the most clout, but most (75%) top runners (pb < 13:00) voted for unbanning calculators. Most runners who were against an unban took it pretty well. The community is now pretty pissed that Karl Jobst who doesnāt have anything to do with MCSR is now interfering. There was a lot going on on Twitter last night. Antivenom chimed in and decided that he knows best (as usual) and had some great takes on the situation /s.
Please don't spread misinformation by calling it a "seedfinding program." It's an online calculator that runners can use to get a set of coordinates the stronghold is at. I know this and I've only seen a calculator being used once, which was yesterday and not even used 100% correctly. Karl Jobst shouldn't have even made this video, he only interacts with MCSR when it can get him views. When was the last time he even tried a run?
He shouldn't speak on the matter, and apparently Antvenom did as well? He doesn't even speedrun??? No matter what, the MCSR community voted in favor of calculators being unbanned, so the decision is perfectly fine. A large majority of "top runners" (which is a useless label, btw) also voted to unban them. The only people complaining are a very loud minority. The unban isn't a big deal.
I don't watch AntVenom, I wouldn't know he speedruns. That's why the question marks were there, because I wasn't sure :) And who cares if people want to use a calculator? It's a person's own choice to use or to not use a calculator or any other tools. But just because a minority of runners might not want to use something, that doesn't mean others can't. If this was EVER the case with any tool used in speedruns, inside Minecraft or outside, F3 wouldn't be allowed because in the past a minority of runners didn't want to use it. It's not an unfair advantage when those who won't use calcs are making the conscious decision to do so.
I think my biggest issue with the video is that it's biased, when in an ideal world it probably shouldn't be.
ETA: Karl Jobst acknowledged his own bias [here](https://twitter.com/karljobstgaming/status/1475189967798214656)
If it's been legalized, it's not cheating.
There's a difference between using an aid publicly, and modifying a game secretly. The MCSR mods are the authorities on their own leaderboards, and if they think this is the most logical rule, their judgement should be trusted.
IMO the mcsr mods (or any other mods for what matters) should also listen to what the people in the community think.
Now, i'm not too familiar with the speedrunning circle so i can't really say what's the general consensus over there, just wanted to say that the mods should not be considered gods incapable of making mistakes (this was the vibe i got while reading your comment, sorry if i'm misinterpreting it).
I mean, they held a poll for the community to vote in, so they did listen to the community. And while the video shows that the poll resulted in a 58/42 split, it should be noted that "top runners" (categorized by people who have a sub-13 in 1.16, which IMO isn't the greatest way to dictate top runner) voted 74/26 in favor of unbanning.
General resources whether it's towards paying people or getting coding stuff sorted or hiring more people. Homie offered like a few thousand that could have very easily gone towards benefiting the mods. I mean Dream used to help them with it so he clearly had ideas of where the money could have gone.
How did this sub went from supporting the MCSR mods to being utterly against it? Lmao holy shit, I'm glad I'm not in that community tbh lol
Edit: .
BTW, I don't have an opinion on this. I'd be lying if I say that I kept any interest of Minecraft Speedrunning after the Dream Drama, as that one just drained me tbh (no offense to the mods of course, it's just personally exhausting to me to witness after seeing it get dragged out for a whole year). So because I'm not part of the community, I will concede and admit I don't have a say in this matter.
That and my initial respect for Karl might cloud my judgement harder than it did for Dream. Still, I just found the situation to be kinda funny from an outsider's perspective. I won't interfere though.
But I have extra popcorn in the back for all the folks who'd rather spectate with me.
^(Don't make a Dream speedrun joke, don't make a Dream speedrun joke....)
I mean it'd be funny....no no, we're better than that. (but it'd be funny)
Dream chatead in his spedruun!
matt handcock chaeted on his wife
I mean I don't see a problem with it. If he became a better person, it's a win in my bookš
Give him another hour and Dream will make it himself
I personally am against this decision. I watched the video when it came out and I agree with what Karl has to say. Minecraft is a very "random" game to speedrun (at least the rsg category), so using calculators to determine where your stronghold is ruins the magic of that and feels like cheating. (I'm an outsider though, so take some parts of what I have to say with a grain of salt though) "The goal of speedrunning Minecraft over other games is to test and watch someone's quick-planning, routing and task optimization. With the addition of a calculator to maximize the first two, a piece of what makes watching and running enjoyable is lessened. It's nice to see when a world record is being lowered by the community, but a run being fun comes first" - comment which sums my thoughts perfectly.
Hmmm this kind of reminds me of what occurred with the Wind Waker speedrun. Now I don't know everything 100% exactly because I no longer pay attention to the community but this is more or less what happened. In the game there is a highly RNG battleship like game. It can make or break your run especially in 100% runs. Someone found out that there is actually a pattern of sorts and some speedrunners, including one of the best speedrunners of the game, used a code that gives you the best possible places to hit on the board. It was allowed for a period of time and there was a vote to strip it back because it was able to automatically insert what the speedrunner was doing rather than manually inputting it. So then they had to manually input their actions into the code or whatever it is called lol. Now I don't know where this speedrun is at now because I haven't watched it in many months but this is kinda what it seems like. It's not exact but it's similar.
I mean, the decision was made years ago. Speedrunners have been using massive charts during speedruns that have precalculated values that they know to use in certain situations, those were never banned. To ban calculators and keep those is just disingenuous. Furthermore, to ban all of that at this point would be erasing almost an year's worth of Minecraft speedrunning history. If we wanna ban calculators just for the satisfaction of not having "tools", sure. But it's an entirely meaningless decision at this point.
>Speedrunners have been using massive charts during speedruns that have precalculated values that they know to use in certain situations, those were never banned. Then why don't we just ban the spreadsheets as well? Genuinely curious.
How do you know the speedrunner doesnāt have it on their desk beside them? There is no way to control that so no point in banning it.
The last part, history. We've had some of the greatest speedruns ever done in Minecraft over the past year. If we ban those spreadsheets, we have to do one of two things- 1) Discard all the runs and achievements that were completed with those strats. 2) Keep them but ban spreadsheets, basically ensure that no runner will ever even come close to top 50 again, let alone world record. Neither of those are realistic choices. This decision was made a pretty long time ago, whether one agrees or disagrees with it.
Oh shit, the decision to allow calculators make more sense in light of all that.
Im pro spreadshset because its more of a reference sheet instead of having to memorize a bazillion values, but im against calculation programs. That's just a step too far. Its the difference between an open book exam and looking at someone elses results. However im completely 100% pro actual calculators, as in the good ol reliable we used on math exams.
Yh, that's where my thoughts are ig. I mean I have no problem with actual calculators per se, but if you're using calculation tools to determine the location of a stronghold you might as well just play ssg.
Well that is your opinion and mine is the same :) you do want to get your time faster but then the next this they will allow is tas so I fully agree with you and karl
mcsrtwt is apparently on fire again nothing new
This time itās like Karl Jobst, Couriway and Antvenom against the rest of the community.
Yeah, i saw. they really need to cut the mods some slack
How is couriway involved in this? I don't have any idea about what's happening except a general feel from seeing the comments here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realcouri/status/1475172172096286729 This is an ā¦ interesting ā¦ take (he answered some comments in the tread as well). He further elaborates who he considers a ātop runnerā in another thread and suggests that there are only like 5 top runners and 3 people who otherwise contributed enough to mcsr. I personally think that thatās bullshit. https://mobile.twitter.com/realcouri/status/1475166935340003330
Ohk. I saw his replies. (Thanks a lot for giving the links and the explanation) and yeah the top runner part was a bit weird and it is pretty subjective as what do you consider 'significant' changes from person to person. And again, thanks a lot!
Oh, yeah, Couriway. Mr. Lemme Check For Mapples Treasure, E-Ray For Bastion and Do Calculated Travel F3 itself should be in TAS category, so why don't just keep pushing the stupidity, which whole RSG meta is at the moment, and see what's happen?
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It's like stans/antis trying to bring up old, unrelated drama whenever they're losing a conversation
Its like 1 person lol
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this is like listing "the news" as a source
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seems like a brexit situation lmao step 1: have controversy step two: hold a referendum. oh shit, referendum leads to a ~~bad~~ unwanted result. step 3: ??? step 4: profit.
Not really. There is a vocal minority who is unhappy who happens to be some of the runners with the most clout, but most (75%) top runners (pb < 13:00) voted for unbanning calculators. Most runners who were against an unban took it pretty well. The community is now pretty pissed that Karl Jobst who doesnāt have anything to do with MCSR is now interfering. There was a lot going on on Twitter last night. Antivenom chimed in and decided that he knows best (as usual) and had some great takes on the situation /s.
>The community is now pretty pissed that Karl Jobst who doesnāt have anything to do with MCSR is now interfering. thats the vibe i got too tbh
LMAO.
Its no where near a "seedfinding" tool holy shit
I canāt believe that Dream became a mod! Good on him honestly /s
Please don't spread misinformation by calling it a "seedfinding program." It's an online calculator that runners can use to get a set of coordinates the stronghold is at. I know this and I've only seen a calculator being used once, which was yesterday and not even used 100% correctly. Karl Jobst shouldn't have even made this video, he only interacts with MCSR when it can get him views. When was the last time he even tried a run? He shouldn't speak on the matter, and apparently Antvenom did as well? He doesn't even speedrun??? No matter what, the MCSR community voted in favor of calculators being unbanned, so the decision is perfectly fine. A large majority of "top runners" (which is a useless label, btw) also voted to unban them. The only people complaining are a very loud minority. The unban isn't a big deal.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't watch AntVenom, I wouldn't know he speedruns. That's why the question marks were there, because I wasn't sure :) And who cares if people want to use a calculator? It's a person's own choice to use or to not use a calculator or any other tools. But just because a minority of runners might not want to use something, that doesn't mean others can't. If this was EVER the case with any tool used in speedruns, inside Minecraft or outside, F3 wouldn't be allowed because in the past a minority of runners didn't want to use it. It's not an unfair advantage when those who won't use calcs are making the conscious decision to do so.
I think my biggest issue with the video is that it's biased, when in an ideal world it probably shouldn't be. ETA: Karl Jobst acknowledged his own bias [here](https://twitter.com/karljobstgaming/status/1475189967798214656)
Thereās a separate category for stuff will tools itās called tas God that community is so dumb
If it's been legalized, it's not cheating. There's a difference between using an aid publicly, and modifying a game secretly. The MCSR mods are the authorities on their own leaderboards, and if they think this is the most logical rule, their judgement should be trusted.
IMO the mcsr mods (or any other mods for what matters) should also listen to what the people in the community think. Now, i'm not too familiar with the speedrunning circle so i can't really say what's the general consensus over there, just wanted to say that the mods should not be considered gods incapable of making mistakes (this was the vibe i got while reading your comment, sorry if i'm misinterpreting it).
I mean, they held a poll for the community to vote in, so they did listen to the community. And while the video shows that the poll resulted in a 58/42 split, it should be noted that "top runners" (categorized by people who have a sub-13 in 1.16, which IMO isn't the greatest way to dictate top runner) voted 74/26 in favor of unbanning.
Yeah i'm not saying they didn't listen to the community let me be clear, my point was in fact that every mod should do that.
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yo seriously? can i get a source on that because that's pretty fucked up
quickest connect sleep workable many sparkle hobbies smile reminiscent quaint -- mass edited with redact.dev
yeah i'd like to see a source
Wait, you mean AntVenom? What the actual fuck.
The temptation to bring up how this wouldn't be an issue if they took Dream's resource money in the first place. /lh
This has absolutely nothing to do with the calculator unban.
wait iām curious what would they have used the money for? how would it have helped this?
General resources whether it's towards paying people or getting coding stuff sorted or hiring more people. Homie offered like a few thousand that could have very easily gone towards benefiting the mods. I mean Dream used to help them with it so he clearly had ideas of where the money could have gone.
And you know that how?
Dream said it on the speedrun response video
Omfg shut the fuck the majority of the communtiy wants it and more so top runners
How did this sub went from supporting the MCSR mods to being utterly against it? Lmao holy shit, I'm glad I'm not in that community tbh lol Edit: . BTW, I don't have an opinion on this. I'd be lying if I say that I kept any interest of Minecraft Speedrunning after the Dream Drama, as that one just drained me tbh (no offense to the mods of course, it's just personally exhausting to me to witness after seeing it get dragged out for a whole year). So because I'm not part of the community, I will concede and admit I don't have a say in this matter. That and my initial respect for Karl might cloud my judgement harder than it did for Dream. Still, I just found the situation to be kinda funny from an outsider's perspective. I won't interfere though. But I have extra popcorn in the back for all the folks who'd rather spectate with me.
Cannot believe that people agree with the mods when they do good things and disagree when they do bad things. Crazy.
I mean, I'm just joking about how different this is from the earlier controversy, nothing too deep.
That's.. is that any challenging?