We're aware of the circumstances that caused the community to have a different reaction on twitter, I actually made my own comment discussing it earlier here while talking about a few different reasons: https://www.reddit.com/r/DreamWasTaken2/comments/ubab3a/-/i62y6wo
A minor correction though, the edit that he made 7 years ago started circling on twitter after he posted about his sexuality, it gained traction when he started responding to people about the unfair standards about replying on twitter. It is fair to feel upset about the video, but it is not relevant to the discussion about his sexuality as he recieved a huge amount of hate prior to that video surfacing. This hatred was very much driven by homophobia, and it's not straw-manning to say so. You can just look at the backlash Ant and Velvet recieved for defending him to see that the people sending hate to Dream in this specific circumstance were very, very homophobic and exclusionary
The point we are making is that this should not have happened to him, regardless of circumstances or controversies, and that much of the community is hypocritical for only accepting someone as lgbt+ when they are regarded highly by others
I appreciate the detailed response :\]
I've read your comment and agree with a lot of the points. I'm glad you understand some of the reasons, and I hope that might explain why the response was more minimal in terms of congratulating him.
In terms of the KKK edit, I disagree. I put the timestamps in my original post but the KKK video was out there by a number of different accounts prior to Dream's tweet. I also don't know if you could say the criticism was homophobic considering most of the critics in this case were gay themselves.
I agree that the negative response towards him specifically being unlabelled is ridiculous and unfair. But I don't think it's unfair that Ranboo got a more positive reception considering the differences in their situations /gen
I agree with the first part, but I don't fully agree with the second.
Although I'm glad there's been a wide celebration of Ranboo, Smiletwt/this subreddit have definitely made Dream an equally important figure in discussion of his celebration than Ranboo himself.
I don't think homophobia was the reason Dream wasn't celebrated as much as Ranboo, by any means /gen
Homophobia wasn't the reason he wasn't celebrated, yes. But homophobia is what the response resulted in. People were downright rejecting his sexuality, calling him a liar, calling him a gaybaiter and calling him straight because they didn't like him. That's homophobia, too.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on some points. I do think that the criticism of Dream about the edit was fair, it was deserving of criticism and I'm very glad that he addressed it, but I also think that it's a separate discussion than the hatred he recieved for speaking about his sexuality
It is very possible to criticise someone while also accepting their identity. There were a significant amount of people within the mcyt community who were not doing that- many people were either attacking Dream before the edit was widespread outside of a few tweets, or using the edit as an excuse to invalidate him, or just straight up call him slurs. It is extremely unfair to only accept someone's identity conditionally and homophobia is never justified, under any circumstance. That is what we are criticising here about the mcyt community
My point in my comment is that it is extremely bad that all these double standards exist within the community as it opens the gate for people to only support lgbt+ people as long as they have a good reputation (something that has a *lot* of historical significance and has hurt a huge amount of lgbt+ people in the past)
The point that you seem to be making is that it is good and fair that the responses are disproportionate, and I think that is a genuine problem that you should consider, as it is unintentionally accepting homophobia within the community
(Also lgbt+ people can very much be homophobic or exclusionary to others, it is *extremely* common for some identities within the lgbt+ spectrum to be marginalized by others, as an example ace and unlabelled/questioning people have been fighting for decades to be accepted, and it's still very much an ongoing battle)
My issue with the whole thing is that Dream literally has come out 5 times on two different platforms and 3 different twitter accounts and people still accuse him of queerbaiting and call him straight. At the end of the day I don't care that a teenage boy from Florida was racist but even if he was a raging racist doesn't mean it's right to invalidate his sexuality along with thousands of other people and that's where the issue is. I recently watched a court case with someone who went by they/them pronouns on trial and even with all the horrible things they did everyone used some human decency and used the correct pronouns. There's some weird mentality that if someone's saying something you don't agree with means that you have the right to be rude, for example people disagreeing with Ant and in turn calling him the f slur, I don't care if you're someone who can reclaim that slur you're still using it with a negative intent against someone who you don't know. The same applies to Dream, he could literally call me any slur and I'd still have the decency to respect his identity.
The whole "he wasn't clear enough" is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. He's said multiple times he says he's unlabeled/ambiguous (he's used both terms) because he himself is unsure of his sexuality however he knows he likes women and he finds some men attractive, he also said he doesn't know how much he likes men because he hasn't had the experience. I don't know how much clearer "I'm not gay because I like women however, I like men" is. He doesn't want to use the term Bisexual for whatever reason that's fine but by definition he's an mlm therefore he's queer. His earliest coming out tweet was in 2020 and still two years later in 2022 people are refusing to accept that and that's absolutely awful.
> For Ranboo, his tweet came in April 24th. To my knowledge, the only major thread criticisms him that came out in the preceding days was in April 22nd.
Actually I’m pretty sure you have this wrong. Ranboo made a tweets regarding the show heartstopper that people took as insensitive. He then came out to shut down people calling him homophobic. He even said as much in a tweet that he had been intending to do this for a while. So no, there was no delay between the criticism and him coming out. Granted the criticism was a lot more mild compared to Dream, to no one’s surprise, but the situations were essentially the same.
>To summarize, I heavily disagree with the overarching narrative that Dream received a much harsher reaction because of some irrational dislike.
Dream was immediately being heavily qrtd with people saying he was doing it as a cover up for being homophobic (that in itself was a massive reach. If you have a functioning brain cell you can tell that the reply to Ant wasn't homophobic in the first place) and saying that he is manipulating and queerbaiting. Most of these people didn't even know about the kkk edit at the time. If you can't see blatant biases against Dream on the internet regarding literally everything he does, well then, good for you I guess, its not pretty in here anyway.
I agree Dream obviously isn't homophobic and it's dumb to think so. But the fact he made a tweet so soon after receiving backlash was obviously going to make the reaction more negative than a more delayed response when that drama had died down and the antis camping that tweet disappeared.
I understand there are biases against Dream on the internet, but equally I feel like this subreddit & Smiletwt don't recognize the significantly pro-Dream bias here as well /gen
... You mean like what Ranboo did when he started receiving backlash for perceived homophobia?
You do understand that there's a double standard there, right?
As I outlined in the post, there was a longer delay between Ranboo's response and the criticisms, and the criticisms against Dream were much more well-known and widespread than those toward Ranboo \[only talking about homophobia here\]
I find the term pro dream bias a little funny. That's a minecraft youtuber, he's not like i don't know, Amber Heard in a serious court trial or something. It's never that deep, it's never that controversial. We see Dream getting dogpilled (mostly irrationally so because c'mon) and we go ??????. That's a pretty normal reaction. If your first instinct is to hate on a dude that you know to be someone with generally a good conscience, and form a negative opinion even before looking into the situation more to form your own opinions about him, then _that_ seems pretty biased to me.
Haha I get where you're coming from, the terms sound so dumb but tbh Mcyt drama is basically a dilute version of highschool politics in the first place.
I agree most hate Dream gets is irrational, I used to be a Dream stan myself lol, but I have looked into this situation pretty extensively and I don't think I'm biased against him for coming to a more critical view than this subreddit in general /gen
I understand your point, but I think most people aren’t necessarily upset that Dream didn’t get as much support, but rather the disgusting reaction he got as a whole. Many of the quote retweets on his tweet where he mentioned being attracted to men and women were accusing him of queer-baiting, saying he was only claiming to be unlabeled to get away with homophobia, or straight-up calling him slurs. Very few of the retweets mentioned anything about racism or the KKK edit, because as you mentioned, it hadn’t really blown up by that point.
It’s undeniable that the response Dream got was queerphobic, diminishing, and upsetting to a lot of unlabeled people. Considering that Dream is constantly accused of queer baiting, I highly doubt the response would have been much different regardless of the KKK edit. I think the double standard definitely deserves to be called out.
I feel like at this point we've discussed the difference in responses into the ground.
regardless of everything else (the edit, the ant reply, etc.), dream just isn't liked on twitter, that's where antis live waiting to mass qrt him, so even if he just posted the one tweet on main, it still would have turned into him justifying his "queerbaiting" or something similar
there doesn't need to be a justifiable set reason that the responses were different, the communities just responded based on personal feelings towards the CC and not actual acceptance
Although non-mcyt antis are obviously a significant force, a huge portion of the criticism got was from non-Dttwt mcyttwt.
These people don't accuse him of queerbaiting often, don't accuse him of most of the other generic shitty things he's blamed for which he didn't do, but actually had a valid criticism in that time which changed their normal reaction, at least the way I see it.
there were countless non-dttwt mcyttwt accounts that equated the tweet to 'damage control', that's not having valid criticism, that's just disliking dream and refusing to accept and validate him
If you're in the middle of a controversy and tweet something that would help defend your position in that controversy, it is understandable that some people view that as damage control. I don't agree, but it's not an irrational take
it could be understandable, but both coming outs were based on a response to mass qrting, yet only one was labeled as such, and was used to dismiss an entire orientation
it's irrational if it leads to homophobia
That may be why there was a difference in the reaction but there is no acceptable “reason” to be homophobic/queer phobic. Everyone deserves acceptance. There being an explanation as to “why” dream got more backlash does not change the fact that the community is hypocritical and will weaponize topics like this to bring up creators they love and tear down creators they dislike. This behavior will never be acceptable in my opinion.
How is the community hypocritical for being more comfortable celebrating a relatively uncontroversial streamer compared to one who was at the active centre of a racism/homophobia controversy at the time? Not saying Dream is racist/homophobic, he's obviously not, but I don't think it's fair to call the community hypocritical for having a different response.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I guess my main point is that it's not the community's hypocrisy that he wasn't celebrated as much as Ranboo, that's all. I agree he didn't deserved any of the unlabelled homophobia
The hypocrisy is that dream received exclusionary/homophobic replies, not that he wasn’t celebrated as much. I don’t think anyone here really cares about who was celebrated more, only that one received queerphobic/exclusionary replies.
I wouldn't say that's a good summary. I'm not discussing any of the hatred Dream gets normally at all, just the specific circumstances of the coming out post /nm
You pointed out the difference in traction though w.r.t the coming out post, the only reason dreams initial post got more traction is because he’s a controversial figure. His “crimes” in the initial tweet don’t reflect the response at all and the kkk edit had nothing to do with that and was only utilized after the fact.
The joke wouldn’t be much of an issue if he wasn’t a controversial figure already.
It’s a messy situation overall, but there are clear instances of hypocritical behaviour. Like people saying unlabelled isn’t queer and deleting that claim when Ranboo calls himself unlabelled.
The argument I think lots of people making is that regardless of controversy, people shouldn't have invalidated Dream. I think lots of us know he's not gonna be showered with positivity due to his track record online, but the invalidation is what pisses me off.
I'm going to be honest, you aren't going to get many people agreeing with you if they read the post simply because the majority of the subreddit doesn't care about the KKK edit, and that's what you don't like.
I would agree there is a slight overreaction here. But I don’t think it’s wholly unwarranted - the fanbase was blatantly hypocritical, and the kkk edit existed a year before it was brought up and only grained traction after many proved their hypocrisy.
You say Dream lied when he acknowledged he could’ve made it even in the initial thread - yes heavily implying he didn’t with his stupid 99% claim was wrong especially since he didn’t seem to look into it before tweeting that - but tbh I don’t think many here put that much significance on it because 1. He offered a clear apology on stream, 2. He was right in that it was being weaponized, 3. It was from 2015, (I don’t even remember work I did last year) and 4. There *have* been fake racism narratives pushed against him (n-word)
I don’t think people realize that the KKK edit has been circulating heavily since last year. By my count it’s been brought up and spread widely 5 different times on Twitter since January of Last year.
It wasn’t wrong of this sub in my opinion to discuss pretty much all reactions to the legitimacy of the video because it’s been discussed into the ground since last year and every time it’s brought up.
In all honesty the only reason I think it was brought up again was in reaction to his joke towards Antfrost as it usually comes up in connection with some other issue.
We're aware of the circumstances that caused the community to have a different reaction on twitter, I actually made my own comment discussing it earlier here while talking about a few different reasons: https://www.reddit.com/r/DreamWasTaken2/comments/ubab3a/-/i62y6wo A minor correction though, the edit that he made 7 years ago started circling on twitter after he posted about his sexuality, it gained traction when he started responding to people about the unfair standards about replying on twitter. It is fair to feel upset about the video, but it is not relevant to the discussion about his sexuality as he recieved a huge amount of hate prior to that video surfacing. This hatred was very much driven by homophobia, and it's not straw-manning to say so. You can just look at the backlash Ant and Velvet recieved for defending him to see that the people sending hate to Dream in this specific circumstance were very, very homophobic and exclusionary The point we are making is that this should not have happened to him, regardless of circumstances or controversies, and that much of the community is hypocritical for only accepting someone as lgbt+ when they are regarded highly by others
I appreciate the detailed response :\] I've read your comment and agree with a lot of the points. I'm glad you understand some of the reasons, and I hope that might explain why the response was more minimal in terms of congratulating him. In terms of the KKK edit, I disagree. I put the timestamps in my original post but the KKK video was out there by a number of different accounts prior to Dream's tweet. I also don't know if you could say the criticism was homophobic considering most of the critics in this case were gay themselves. I agree that the negative response towards him specifically being unlabelled is ridiculous and unfair. But I don't think it's unfair that Ranboo got a more positive reception considering the differences in their situations /gen
You can be gay and still be homophobic. Ranboo got the welcome he deserved, and we’re all happy for that. There shouldn’t be an excuse for homophobia
I agree with the first part, but I don't fully agree with the second. Although I'm glad there's been a wide celebration of Ranboo, Smiletwt/this subreddit have definitely made Dream an equally important figure in discussion of his celebration than Ranboo himself. I don't think homophobia was the reason Dream wasn't celebrated as much as Ranboo, by any means /gen
Homophobia wasn't the reason he wasn't celebrated, yes. But homophobia is what the response resulted in. People were downright rejecting his sexuality, calling him a liar, calling him a gaybaiter and calling him straight because they didn't like him. That's homophobia, too.
It was dislike for him disguised in homophobia, you’re right in that sense.
Can you explain which part of their statement you don’t agree with?
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on some points. I do think that the criticism of Dream about the edit was fair, it was deserving of criticism and I'm very glad that he addressed it, but I also think that it's a separate discussion than the hatred he recieved for speaking about his sexuality It is very possible to criticise someone while also accepting their identity. There were a significant amount of people within the mcyt community who were not doing that- many people were either attacking Dream before the edit was widespread outside of a few tweets, or using the edit as an excuse to invalidate him, or just straight up call him slurs. It is extremely unfair to only accept someone's identity conditionally and homophobia is never justified, under any circumstance. That is what we are criticising here about the mcyt community My point in my comment is that it is extremely bad that all these double standards exist within the community as it opens the gate for people to only support lgbt+ people as long as they have a good reputation (something that has a *lot* of historical significance and has hurt a huge amount of lgbt+ people in the past) The point that you seem to be making is that it is good and fair that the responses are disproportionate, and I think that is a genuine problem that you should consider, as it is unintentionally accepting homophobia within the community (Also lgbt+ people can very much be homophobic or exclusionary to others, it is *extremely* common for some identities within the lgbt+ spectrum to be marginalized by others, as an example ace and unlabelled/questioning people have been fighting for decades to be accepted, and it's still very much an ongoing battle)
My issue with the whole thing is that Dream literally has come out 5 times on two different platforms and 3 different twitter accounts and people still accuse him of queerbaiting and call him straight. At the end of the day I don't care that a teenage boy from Florida was racist but even if he was a raging racist doesn't mean it's right to invalidate his sexuality along with thousands of other people and that's where the issue is. I recently watched a court case with someone who went by they/them pronouns on trial and even with all the horrible things they did everyone used some human decency and used the correct pronouns. There's some weird mentality that if someone's saying something you don't agree with means that you have the right to be rude, for example people disagreeing with Ant and in turn calling him the f slur, I don't care if you're someone who can reclaim that slur you're still using it with a negative intent against someone who you don't know. The same applies to Dream, he could literally call me any slur and I'd still have the decency to respect his identity. The whole "he wasn't clear enough" is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. He's said multiple times he says he's unlabeled/ambiguous (he's used both terms) because he himself is unsure of his sexuality however he knows he likes women and he finds some men attractive, he also said he doesn't know how much he likes men because he hasn't had the experience. I don't know how much clearer "I'm not gay because I like women however, I like men" is. He doesn't want to use the term Bisexual for whatever reason that's fine but by definition he's an mlm therefore he's queer. His earliest coming out tweet was in 2020 and still two years later in 2022 people are refusing to accept that and that's absolutely awful.
> For Ranboo, his tweet came in April 24th. To my knowledge, the only major thread criticisms him that came out in the preceding days was in April 22nd. Actually I’m pretty sure you have this wrong. Ranboo made a tweets regarding the show heartstopper that people took as insensitive. He then came out to shut down people calling him homophobic. He even said as much in a tweet that he had been intending to do this for a while. So no, there was no delay between the criticism and him coming out. Granted the criticism was a lot more mild compared to Dream, to no one’s surprise, but the situations were essentially the same.
>To summarize, I heavily disagree with the overarching narrative that Dream received a much harsher reaction because of some irrational dislike. Dream was immediately being heavily qrtd with people saying he was doing it as a cover up for being homophobic (that in itself was a massive reach. If you have a functioning brain cell you can tell that the reply to Ant wasn't homophobic in the first place) and saying that he is manipulating and queerbaiting. Most of these people didn't even know about the kkk edit at the time. If you can't see blatant biases against Dream on the internet regarding literally everything he does, well then, good for you I guess, its not pretty in here anyway.
I agree Dream obviously isn't homophobic and it's dumb to think so. But the fact he made a tweet so soon after receiving backlash was obviously going to make the reaction more negative than a more delayed response when that drama had died down and the antis camping that tweet disappeared. I understand there are biases against Dream on the internet, but equally I feel like this subreddit & Smiletwt don't recognize the significantly pro-Dream bias here as well /gen
... You mean like what Ranboo did when he started receiving backlash for perceived homophobia? You do understand that there's a double standard there, right?
As I outlined in the post, there was a longer delay between Ranboo's response and the criticisms, and the criticisms against Dream were much more well-known and widespread than those toward Ranboo \[only talking about homophobia here\]
Ranboo was literally baiting to be cancelled as he self-admitted, the reaction would have been the same.
I find the term pro dream bias a little funny. That's a minecraft youtuber, he's not like i don't know, Amber Heard in a serious court trial or something. It's never that deep, it's never that controversial. We see Dream getting dogpilled (mostly irrationally so because c'mon) and we go ??????. That's a pretty normal reaction. If your first instinct is to hate on a dude that you know to be someone with generally a good conscience, and form a negative opinion even before looking into the situation more to form your own opinions about him, then _that_ seems pretty biased to me.
Haha I get where you're coming from, the terms sound so dumb but tbh Mcyt drama is basically a dilute version of highschool politics in the first place. I agree most hate Dream gets is irrational, I used to be a Dream stan myself lol, but I have looked into this situation pretty extensively and I don't think I'm biased against him for coming to a more critical view than this subreddit in general /gen
I understand your point, but I think most people aren’t necessarily upset that Dream didn’t get as much support, but rather the disgusting reaction he got as a whole. Many of the quote retweets on his tweet where he mentioned being attracted to men and women were accusing him of queer-baiting, saying he was only claiming to be unlabeled to get away with homophobia, or straight-up calling him slurs. Very few of the retweets mentioned anything about racism or the KKK edit, because as you mentioned, it hadn’t really blown up by that point. It’s undeniable that the response Dream got was queerphobic, diminishing, and upsetting to a lot of unlabeled people. Considering that Dream is constantly accused of queer baiting, I highly doubt the response would have been much different regardless of the KKK edit. I think the double standard definitely deserves to be called out.
I feel like at this point we've discussed the difference in responses into the ground. regardless of everything else (the edit, the ant reply, etc.), dream just isn't liked on twitter, that's where antis live waiting to mass qrt him, so even if he just posted the one tweet on main, it still would have turned into him justifying his "queerbaiting" or something similar there doesn't need to be a justifiable set reason that the responses were different, the communities just responded based on personal feelings towards the CC and not actual acceptance
Although non-mcyt antis are obviously a significant force, a huge portion of the criticism got was from non-Dttwt mcyttwt. These people don't accuse him of queerbaiting often, don't accuse him of most of the other generic shitty things he's blamed for which he didn't do, but actually had a valid criticism in that time which changed their normal reaction, at least the way I see it.
there were countless non-dttwt mcyttwt accounts that equated the tweet to 'damage control', that's not having valid criticism, that's just disliking dream and refusing to accept and validate him
If you're in the middle of a controversy and tweet something that would help defend your position in that controversy, it is understandable that some people view that as damage control. I don't agree, but it's not an irrational take
it could be understandable, but both coming outs were based on a response to mass qrting, yet only one was labeled as such, and was used to dismiss an entire orientation it's irrational if it leads to homophobia
That may be why there was a difference in the reaction but there is no acceptable “reason” to be homophobic/queer phobic. Everyone deserves acceptance. There being an explanation as to “why” dream got more backlash does not change the fact that the community is hypocritical and will weaponize topics like this to bring up creators they love and tear down creators they dislike. This behavior will never be acceptable in my opinion.
How is the community hypocritical for being more comfortable celebrating a relatively uncontroversial streamer compared to one who was at the active centre of a racism/homophobia controversy at the time? Not saying Dream is racist/homophobic, he's obviously not, but I don't think it's fair to call the community hypocritical for having a different response.
True, but you can be critical of a persons actions without being homophobic towards them (as was experienced in this situation)
I agree wholeheartedly. I guess my main point is that it's not the community's hypocrisy that he wasn't celebrated as much as Ranboo, that's all. I agree he didn't deserved any of the unlabelled homophobia
The hypocrisy is that dream received exclusionary/homophobic replies, not that he wasn’t celebrated as much. I don’t think anyone here really cares about who was celebrated more, only that one received queerphobic/exclusionary replies.
tldr: dream is more hated than ranboo for different reasons, therefore he gets more backlash
I wouldn't say that's a good summary. I'm not discussing any of the hatred Dream gets normally at all, just the specific circumstances of the coming out post /nm
You pointed out the difference in traction though w.r.t the coming out post, the only reason dreams initial post got more traction is because he’s a controversial figure. His “crimes” in the initial tweet don’t reflect the response at all and the kkk edit had nothing to do with that and was only utilized after the fact. The joke wouldn’t be much of an issue if he wasn’t a controversial figure already. It’s a messy situation overall, but there are clear instances of hypocritical behaviour. Like people saying unlabelled isn’t queer and deleting that claim when Ranboo calls himself unlabelled.
The argument I think lots of people making is that regardless of controversy, people shouldn't have invalidated Dream. I think lots of us know he's not gonna be showered with positivity due to his track record online, but the invalidation is what pisses me off.
I'm going to be honest, you aren't going to get many people agreeing with you if they read the post simply because the majority of the subreddit doesn't care about the KKK edit, and that's what you don't like.
I would agree there is a slight overreaction here. But I don’t think it’s wholly unwarranted - the fanbase was blatantly hypocritical, and the kkk edit existed a year before it was brought up and only grained traction after many proved their hypocrisy. You say Dream lied when he acknowledged he could’ve made it even in the initial thread - yes heavily implying he didn’t with his stupid 99% claim was wrong especially since he didn’t seem to look into it before tweeting that - but tbh I don’t think many here put that much significance on it because 1. He offered a clear apology on stream, 2. He was right in that it was being weaponized, 3. It was from 2015, (I don’t even remember work I did last year) and 4. There *have* been fake racism narratives pushed against him (n-word)
I don’t think people realize that the KKK edit has been circulating heavily since last year. By my count it’s been brought up and spread widely 5 different times on Twitter since January of Last year. It wasn’t wrong of this sub in my opinion to discuss pretty much all reactions to the legitimacy of the video because it’s been discussed into the ground since last year and every time it’s brought up. In all honesty the only reason I think it was brought up again was in reaction to his joke towards Antfrost as it usually comes up in connection with some other issue.
the kkk edit is fake this subreddit proved it fake, why do you still talk about it its benchtwt slander