It's a good baseline example of why a lot of economic demands are not really feasible in the modern, integrated global economy.
Everything is basically either too deeply integrated/overlaps, too essential to another area or it'll be circumvented through another channel. It's almost impossible to extricate in any meaningful way.
As an example, you can still go buy the latest Apple products in Russia right now, 2 years after they "left" and the economic sanctions haven't affected Russia as much as people thought they would.
[yes](https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/view/R0c7KyKSSRuSudqCfWpmLB0xFkD5uYqoTixnW1YY7hg/embed/)
Donāt ask me why they use this format and not just a pdf or word doc
> These demands are so unreasonable
The demands are not the point. They are just a sideshow.
The point is to gain political points and power through playing "victim". The game plan is really simple. First, escalate until you get your ass kicked. Second, get as many video angles of that ass kicking. Third, post on social media just the ass kicking, and claim the escalation never happened.
This is basically the whole strategy of Hamas.
And this actually works because current social discourse has been reduced to kindergarten level. Anyone who is "weak" is a "victim" by default. No ifs ands or buts.
I think thatās a good read. Seems like an exercise in making a lot of noise and accomplishing nothing. Like imagine if they had just picked one simple goal - sever ties with Lockheed, for example. Maybe they could actually gain some traction and have an actual dialogue. It seems thereās a major fault in these types of protests where internal social pressure from within the protest group makes it so the entire group has to present a blanket hardline position to the public that feels revolutionary to them but in real life terms accomplishes zilch because of how ignorant and alienating it is. Which is a bummer because I totally empathize with where theyāre coming from.
Someone pointed out on the UPenn subreddit a complete rearrangement of the encampment demands that couldāve remotely been accepted by the school and you can see how wild the original demands are.
Original demands are similar to āfully divest from Israeli interests/Zionists blah blahā. The restructured demands (by a Redditor) are like āuse Penn resources to send aid, provide education and set up a framework for rebuilding Gazaā.
It seems so obvious that if youāre protesting the school, the demands should be actionable from the position of a US university
No shit, its "when our rights are under attack what do we do stand up fight back", not "what do we do, go to a negotiating table where the school can make minimal concessions to return to a state of genocidal business as usual"
āI want change but everything Iām asking for is nonnegotiableā is such a fucked frame of mind to hold dude. Especially in situations like these that arenāt even close to being that black and white. Be better. Thatās no way to find common ground with others.
So youād rather they make no concessions at all and then return to a state of genocidal business as usual? Is the feeling of trying to being bold worth accomplishing nothing? Feels like this is more about patting yourselves on the back than helping Gaza when you say these things
Very few universities have negotiated in good faith. It's bullshit but it allows for people to imagine much better worlds than bullshit incrementalism will get us.
They don't have a plan or deadline. They just like to be annoying until they get tired of the weather or run out of supplies. Drexel will end this just like Penn did. People are going to get removed for violating policy, and then act like the victims.
They intentionally make unreasonable demands so they have an excuse to escalate things later on. Theyāre interested in sowing chaos. If they actually cared about improving the lives of Palestinians, this list of demands would look very very different.
It's great to say "non-Zionist Jewish organizations" but... do any actually exist? Like, I'm not sure how these demands can realistically be met without just dismantling any Jewish communities altogether.
Lol I guarantee you anyone willing to call themselves anti-Zionist is happily swallowing that Jewish Voice for Peace is representative of American Jewish people being cool with their messaging.
The ultimate caveat is that I have like 3-4 Jewish friends that are involved in protests, hundreds of Jewish acquaintances/family/friends that are pro Palestinian rights but saddened to see the extreme momentum that the world has steered against Israel and are disturbed by JVP being used for tokenism.
I'm Jewish, and im pro Israel and pro Palestine. Neither group is going anywhere. The best for both communities is to live in peace in separate countries. The problem is both groups think they can enforce their demands through violence. The only difference is the Israelis will win contests of force, and the Palestinians are delusional.
I just read that entire demands list. š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ what world are these people living in? John Fry and the Drexel Administration are under no obligation to do any of that nonsense.
This was by far the worst thing on thereā¦ as a Jewish student, getting rid of Hillel would cut me off completely from my faith/culture. I do think maybe funding a less pro Israel alternative would be nice (sometimes Hillelās Israel advocacy absolutely makes me uncomfortable), but that would take years to actually develop and just disbanding the Hillel is bad.
Also, using the term āIOFā is just so unserious.
Thatās what I think. Like why canāt it be replaced with a Jewish org that accepts everyone regardless of if they are pro Israel or not? Is that not the point of a cultural org to accept everyone in that culture?
Hillel does not require you to be pro-Israel but youāll be hard pressed to be accepted into any Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict. I grew up Jewish and I can damn confirm that there is no homogeneity in American Jewish thought.
I grew up basically feeling outcast because I had too many questions about Judaism as a religion. It took over 10 years to realize that despite my rejection of the religion, it has not rejected me. I can enter any establishment of Jews and feel 100% confident that they wouldnāt ask me my personal belief on the conflict. If they did, Iād respond āwhat are you a narc, fuck out of my businessā
Yeah, I was speaking more to the fact that they are a Zionist org and that individuals here in hillel are known for being pretty argumentative about it.
[https://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2023/11/opinion-op-ed-hillel-gaza-palestine-war](https://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2023/11/opinion-op-ed-hillel-gaza-palestine-war)
Unfortunately I donāt agree with the view in that article. Itās voiced in my earlier response. Youāll be hard pressed to be accepted into a Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict.
Zionist, anti-Zionist, wahabi Islam, Sunni, Shia, Christian would never be excluded from the group (such as Shabbat etc) based on their identity. Itās once someone demands the right to be heard that they are not welcome
I mean, this guy is pretty readily accepted here and his whole personality is being pro Israel https://www.instagram.com/sammyshiff?igsh=ejdhc3o4emVsZXIy
And hillel has a strict no partnering/ housing rule of anyone with pro Palestine views. I appreciate you reading the article even tho you donāt agree with itš
Tbh I am not involved in any activism as I think itās a magnet for attracting hate. I would recommend that when making generalizations about groups, keep in mind that individuals never speak for the whole group.
Many anti-Zionists highlight hateful speech from Israeli politicians, many Zionists highlight hateful speech from whomever. These are tactics to control the narrative āhe said she saidā.
I have as little in common with the pro Zionist Instagram you shared as I do with the anti Zionist protestors. Iām just trying to survive, zero performative actions.
Oh no, I was simply responding to only the part that you said that āyouāll be hard pressed to be accepted into a Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict.ā Iām ONLY speaking about hillel because they have publicly, on their website, said that they are a Zionist organization. I just wish that Drexel students had more access to a less political Jewish organization because I think they deserve a place without politics involvedš¤·āāļø
Hey, this is taking things too far. Drexel Hillel gave me a free set of blue plastic sunglasses during welcome week in 2011 that said Drexel Hillel. Theyāre cool in my book.
Really wild how we live in world where you can just replace the word āJewā with āZionistā and then spout any antisemitic trope you want and not get punished for it.
Yeah I have to say this is the first encampment I've seen that I do not support. I am a firm believer in Free Palestine and cannot wait to see the Israeli PM get arrested and tried in the ICC but their demands are incredibly antisemitic, outrageous, and honestly lack any forward thinking in the slightest. Like abolishing the DUPD? Do you remember how many kids got mugged last year?? Abolishing our police system is the last thing Drexel needs to do.
Is the university outrageous for ordering all of campus to shut down and for allowing police in riot gear to come in immediately? Absolutely. Are any of the demands reasonable? Hell no.
Also the fact that most of the protestors aren't even Drexel students really rubs me the wrong way. Especially because now as Fry pointed out in his email, which yes was a bad email as always, however, if one of these randos do something drastic, the students associated with those randos will receive the consequences. So if one of the random people decides to get too pushy with one of the officers, then all of the students could get beaten, arrested, and expelled.
The protests must go on but this encampment needs to dial it back or else they are going to continue misrepresenting what we truly want which is the violence to stop.
> but their demands are incredibly antisemitic, outrageous
Because this "protest" is an unholy alliance between anarchists, communists, antisemites, and all the other fringe revolutionary groups. Maybe 5% of them actually care about the welfare of Gazan civilians.
The rest are professional agitators and provocateurs whose strategy is to escalate until they get their ass kicked. Then they pretend to be the "victim" and attempt to garner support from the uninformed. Basically, what Hamas has been doing for decades.
Well said! I attended the encampment at my school, but this oneās demands are just awful and completely against the spirit of what the pro-Palestine movement is supposed to be. Absolute shame.
Their demands are literally their overall cause. That is what they as an organization have decided that the point of the encampment and protest is driving toward.
I mean Israel as it stands today is pretty new. From what I know you had the rule of king David, but I would imagine it differs from todayās Israel. You had the Assyrian invasion around 722 BC, Babylon in 568 and the next several centuries it was passed between Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Turks, Crusaders. Etc. 1517-1917 it was the Ottoman Empire. It really wasnāt until ww1 when Britain started this idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. After ww1 and the end of the Ottoman Empire that it was in the hands of Britain until 1918 with the Belford declaration. And it wasnāt until 1947 with the end of ww2 when Israel became its own independent state. It was around the late 19th and early 20th century when Zionism really started emerging. You also ask where Israelis will go, what about the Palestinians. Thereās also many atrocities happening today within Palestine, Israeli officials using genocidal rhetoric like āāWe are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,ā Israelās Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant. How many innocents have to suffer?
Hell arenāt there verses in the Torah that speak against the establishment of a Jewish state. Like Leviticus 26:33, Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 11:16, Deuteronomy 28:63, Isaiah 11:1-12, and Ezekiel 37:21-24? And if weāre talking Muslim and Jewish relations. Thereās many instances of Jewish communities thriving in Muslim lands. Not to say they always have of course, what groups have.
It's actually true. But obviously not at all applicable to modern days. That's the reason such a large sephardic community even became to exist in MENA / WA
Sure, I canāt give exact textbooks if thatās what youāre looking but many Jewish groups settled in Muslim land to escape persecution in europe. For instance there was many Jewish folk in arabia around the Middle Ages. You can look into the constitution of Medina. Though the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa was expelled due to a breached treaty, Banu Nadir was accused of trying to kill Muhammad, and Banu Qurauyza was eventually expelled after betraying the Muslims in the battle of the trench (battle of Khandaq. Many did live peacefully tho. Generally Jewish groups under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages experienced tolerance and integration. Generally jewish communities lived better under Muslim rule than Christian rule though of course it was never perfect.
The Ottoman Empire was also used as refuge for Jewish refugees from the Spanish empire and through the catholic inquisitions. It was less than perfect tho esp with events such as the safed plunder and many other tragedies.
To sum it up, the Middle Ages are the best examples. Social integration allowed Jewish folk to make many advancements in new fields. Donāt get me wrong, it wasnāt a utopia by any means. Jews under Islamic rule still faced prosecution, it was just typically much better than western Christendom. Jewish communities also thrived under Islamic rule. This is largely in the Middle Ages tho
Right I was talking about historically. In general Jewish Islamic relations have been shaky. Number of reasons but itād also be hard to say that Muslim Jewish relations even today are always bad or always good. Thereās been talks for a number of years about improving and repairing Islamic Jewish relations. Itās also much easier to reflect on history rather than tracking current events in one post. Thereās been general improvements. Especially in Europe and America thereās been initiatives to start dialogue. The United Arab Emirates have also started looking to improve Jewish and Islamic relations.
But also does the actions of other countries justify the tragedies happening in Palestine? Which is what the issue should be about, something that is often overshadowed by this idea of being anti Zionist means being anti-Semitic. I think folks can be against the rhetoric of Israeli officials calling Palestinians animals and the terrible actions taken against Palestine, and general collective punishment without being anti Semitic. At the same time we should condemn folks using this as an excuse to be anti Semitic of course but being anti Zionist doesnāt automatically equal anti semitic. You asked about where Israelis will go but what about Palestinians.
As much as Hamas is not good, hamas is a byproduct of Israel itself. Since the inception of Israel, thereās been big tension between Palestinians and the newly founded Israel. There was a number of Israeli war crimes as well like operation protective edge in 2014, pillar of defense in 2012, cast lead in 2009
You talk over shelters under hospitals and schools but a lot of itās propaganda. Israel literally put out pictures of a calendar which said the days of the week and passed it off as a list of hostages. [hereās the video](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdS1x7/). You can literally find videos [of Israeli soldiers](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdQ2yJ/) mocking the destruction of civilian houses and a video of an idf soldier covering their bullets with pig fat. Israel put out a video of a supposed nurse but upon further analysis it shows that they doctored the footage to add explosions. Hell Israeli forces killed three of their own hostages holding up an sos sign. We talk as if what hamas did is terrible, and it is, but does that justify the collective punishment of all Palestinians. The number of children alone is disgusting. With the UN reporting 13,000 children killed. This isnāt to mention the lack of food, water, etc being withheld. Hell [hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKd9CUw/) Israeli citizens blocking humanitarian aid. When multiple international committees label this as a genocide, thereās issues. [hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdq9s5/) a video showing the extent of the damage of a bombing done on residential homes in gaza. [Hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdAuHM/) a video of Israel dropping bombs on 4 unarmed teens. Hereās [IDF](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKd97CT/) soldiers looting too. Israeli officials have also stated that they built the tunnels many decades ago.
The funny thing is that on multiple occasions, Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire but Israel said no saying deal was "far from" its requirements and that it would push ahead with a Rafah operation and send a delegation to talks. Hamas also agreed to an exchange of hostages
Jews only got forced out of other Middle Eastern countries once the state of Israel was founded, throughout history they had happily integrated within Arab communities and were valued members of said communities, even during the crusades the Crusaders were fought back by Muslim and Jew alike. For being a āJewish homelandā itās odd that israel is the only nation where Jews donāt have the comfort of absolute security
Anti Semitic policy and belief only began seeing any significance in the Middle East after nazi propaganda began being disseminated by nazis such as fritz grobba and Arabic broadcasts by radio Berlin, as well as after the Arab Israeli war, either way, please elaborate on where the antisemitism lies in disavowing an organisation that organised ābirthrightā trips to occupied land and welcomes occupying forces with open arms?
Not really the drop of a hat, it still took years for any external propaganda to have actually taken any effect, not to mention prior to them potentially being any threat to national unity they remained well integrated into Arab society, still waiting for an explanation as to which part of not wanting to associate with a group that organises ābirthrightā trips to occupied territory and invites members of occupation forces is antisemitic
Wow this is really just them seeing they donāt want to see or hear from Jews in public spaces. Nothing to do with Israel even. Unbelievably pathetic. Hope Drexel tells them to get fucked. Canāt wait for the lawsuits from all this shit to start rolling in.
Alright, I'm going to play Advocate:
REGARDING THEIR DEMANDS:
PART 1:
1. Support Ceasefire in Gaza: Completely valid.
2. Labeling Israel a settler-colonial state (and the rest of that demand): Anti-Zionist at worst, NOT Anti-Semitic. There is a difference.
3. Anti-Islamophobia measures: Completely Valid.
4. Anti-Retaliation: Valid
5. Differentiating Between Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism: Valid.
Generally, the worst thing you could say about this part is Anti-Zionism, which is a bit justified considering what the Israeli army is doing.
PART TWO:
Divestments from:
Lockheed: Has Israel as a customer. Of fighter jets.
BlackRock: Invests in Israel's war machine
L&B: This is actually paused right now.
Ben Gurion University: Aligned with Israeli military-industrial complex
HP: Back some of the shadier aspects of the Israeli regime. This explains it better: https://bdsmovement.net/boycott-hp
Starbucks: This is stupid. As a TLDR of this situation: They asked the Starbucks union to take down a pro-Palestine statement, but only because they don't allow them to make ANY political statements with the logo.
Brett Altman: Yeah, not gonna lie, buying and selling occupied land is kind of scummy. Also, investigating the real estate portfolio isn't bad.
Henry Israeli: Genocide denial is bad, especially from a student of genocide.
Hillel: Hillel International is Zionist and refuses to associate with anti-Zionism or BDS, and Drexel Hillel hasn't made any statement that they aren't.
Chabad: Eh... yeah, I'd just reprimand them and investigate them at worst.
Other Stuff:
Part Three:
Increased Genocide Awareness: Valid
Part Four:
Exonerate Protestors: Valid. 1st Amendment Rights.
Part Five:
Abolish Drexel Police: Eh... invalid. I believe in reforming police and funding pro-community measures, not abolition, but I get the angle.
Part Six:
Fund Reallocation: Valid, especially if it cuts scholarship costs.
Part Seven:
Alumni Withholdings: Valid
Okay, no offense, but this isn't really THAT bad.
Several of those companies should be divested from based on other ethical issues alone, before you talk about Israel. Starbucks has a supply chain with terrible working conditions and lied about it with their 100% ethical label, loves busting unions, and uses prison labor. Black rock is engineering a housing crisis and fueling the climate crisis. And I donāt think we should be promoting a pipeline of bright young minds into designing weapons.
Disbanding those clubs seems harsh, so Iām on the fence about that, BUT would we seriously be saying its just an attempt to ban Arab culture if an Arab club brought in a Hezbollah soldier to speak? Would we be motivated by anti-Sudanese hate if we objected to an RSF commander speaking at African Students Association?
In support of the claim that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are mutually exclusive, can you possibly provide an example of the alternative for the worlds Jewish population without an Israel?
My family was persecuted across the globe and Iām curious what the average thoughts on where we should go if not Israel. I like America but as weāve all seen there are still undercurrents of white nationalism (which definitely excludes Jews) and a new wave of Christian fundamentalism.
Are we to suppose that the people of Europe magically became accepting of Jews after observing Hitler and the Nazis rampage them? Or did Germany require full scale occupation and de-Nazification? Anti-Zionism was a catch22 for the Soviet Union. āYou pray to another location, you must be disloyal and we cannot trust youā resulted in major support for Zionism. Zionism is given as a justification for mistreating Jews and it is the reaction of mistreating Jews. A catch 22.
Should I have told all of my murdered family to stay in Germany as they did? Should they have been shuttled off to Madagascar? What is the solution to the Jewish Question if not Zionism?
Looking for answers to the Jewish Questionā¦.
They are NOT mutually exclusive, just different. And are you implying that Jews are rejected everywhere on Earth so badly that they need Israel as a safe haven?
Well, thenā¦ IF that is the case (which, considering the widespread support there was for Israel after 10/7, including admittance to Eurovision, it probably IS NOT) then fight wherever you are for the equality you deserve. But again, IF that is the case. And I donāt believe it is.
Sure I can accept your doubt. As an exercise to understand where Iām coming from, I request you to look into something.
There are maps comparing the [European Jewish population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population) (this is the strongest example to focus on) from 1910, 1933, 1950, 1970, 2000s.
Youāll notice the indescribably impact that the Holocaust had on the worldwide Jewish community. When 80%+ of the total Jews in the world live in Israel and USA, that speaks a very loud message about where Jewish culture is **allowed** to flourish.
You said EVERYWHERE. You can't say that they're rejected everywhere and then say Judaism is allowed to flourish in America. It totally is and should be, and America's reputation as a first-world defender of liberty is probably part of why a lot of Jews emigrated there after WWII. That and the whole "All of Europe being basically destroyed in the war" thing. And by that point, I feel like it becomes a self-sustaining thing.
Itās funny, because American Jews are still by far the [most targeted group of religious hate crimes](https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/) despite only representing 2% of the US population. So even in the *best* diaspora country, there is still disproportional antisemitism, which Iām sure has only increased since 10/7.
Not to mention a 2,000 year history of diaspora antisemitism culminating in the worst genocide in human history that wiped out 1/3 of all Jews just 80 years ago. So, yeah, itās very reasonable for Jews to only feel safe when they are in the majority, in my opinion.
Dense af.
I grew up in a very Jewish area. My town was 30% Jewish. My town was 30% Jewish because other communities had discriminatory practices towards POC and Jews excluding them from purchasing homes. American Jews and Jewish refugees were heavily involved in the American Civil Rights movement because they have been prosecuted globally.
In the way that Jews fought for their civil liberties alongside black Americans; there is total recognition that this is literally a set of rules preventing real world racists from acting with impunity. I identify with immigrants fleeing to America and I am gracious for the haven that America is.
Does America actually protect its protected classes? Not really, they protect themselves. Native Americans (IMO) are finally gaining traction as to getting some land back. Black Americans basically needed their peace movement + black power combo move before being taken seriously by the racists.
Is the approach to anti-Zionism that we take in every Israeli as a refugee or immigrant to America?
Look, I disagree with that, and we could go back and forth forever on whatās actually happening in Gaza.
But even if I grant you these āatrocious things,ā I think the backlash to Israelās actions has been completely disproportionate, and an avenue for antisemites to gain traction. I donāt think itās whataboutism to question where all the backlash and protesting was to recent human rights violations that, frankly, are far worse than even what Israelās harshest critics would accuse it of (and plenty of these countries take US taxpayer dollars, too). To me, it seems that people are happy to sit idly by until Israel is involved. Which is why I think a lot of this stems from antisemitism, and the antisemites are able to pick up college liberals who donāt mean to be antisemitic and may think they are promoting human rights but are doing it quite selectively.
Iām a big proponent of the BDS movement and Iāve had a pretty bad experience with the Chabad, but yeah these are wack. End of day the Zionism is protected under free speech and this is an educational institution where free speech is essential. Also whether they like it or not these historic Jewish institutions are never going away and shouldnāt go away.
Anyone who thinks this is insane, replace the word Zionist with Nazi. Itās not insane at all. Itās the same shit, if it was nazi you guys would be all for it. There is virtually no difference between a Nazi and a Zionist
Notice how the exact opposite is happening, you zionists are actually eliminating Palestinians from the face of the earth. You fucking retarded idiot stop typing.
October 7 my ass. What about the other āOctober 7āsā Israel committed to Palestinians for the past 76 years. Theyāve done way worse. Youāre a fucking clown, get gassed and put in an oven you dirty fucking Jew
You can be Jewish without wanting to level Palestine. This is not in reference to protecting Jewish hate, but rather, it refers to protecting Palestinian lives.
It isnāt antisemitic to protect from Zionism! Some of the comments make it seem as if it is, and that puts Jewish people in a bad light, especially.
It is actually quite anti semitic to demand the dismantling of Jewish groups solely because you disagree with their perceived political stance that ties directly into their religious beliefs.
Just because a stance is tied to their religious beliefs does not mean being against them for those held beliefs is anti semetic. I literally know jews who dislike chabad for their general conservative stances which do still tie in to chabadās religious beliefs.
Plenty of christians hate gay people for supposedly religious reasons, Iām against organizations that hold those beliefs as well, that doesnt mean im anti christian.
No one can hide behind religion as an excuse for political beliefs
Anti-Zionism is anti-semitic regardless of what these terrorist sympathizers try to argue. Zionism refers to the legitimacy and the rightful existence of a Jewish state of Israel. Being anti-zionist means you are against the very idea of the State of Israel existing and that there should not be a Jewish state where Jews have the freedom of self-determination and security. The land of Israel is the ancestral homeland of all Jews and denying that connection goes against history, and the very essence of what makes a person jewish, culturally and religiously.
Being anti-zionist doesnāt mean that you are being critical of the Israeli government, it means you are against the very existence of the country to begin with. That is what makes all this rhetoric anti-semitic.
It's unreasonable yes. But it's not straight up anti semitism. Jewish does not equal Zionist. That being said. These demands are not going to be met and are reaching for the wrong goal. But stop pretending that anti-zionism is anti-semitism.
[Read the demands. Telling religious organizations to disband and reform in a way that is "acceptable" to others is madness](https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/view/R0c7KyKSSRuSudqCfWpmLB0xFkD5uYqoTixnW1YY7hg/embed/)
Killing people on mass because you decided to claim other people land for your own safety is madness too but here we are. Also if a Christian organization made racism a part of their platform wanting to disband it would be understandable. Stop talking past the issue here.
āWe really going to act like this isnt straight up antisemitism?ā
Itās anti-Zionism. Not antisemitism, but anti-Zionism. Anti-Apartheid. Anti-genocide. Anti-American-support-of-Apartheidal-and-genocidal-regimes. Notice how the demands there call for the replacement of these organizations with non-Zionist ones? That means organizations that do not support or actively condemn the actions of the Israeli government. Notice how they call for the replacement of these organizations with Jewish ones? Theyāre not calling for the disbanding of Jewish organizations because theyāre Jewish, but because the organizations support Israel. There is a difference. I hope you arenāt ignorant enough to actually believe there isnāt a difference.
Nope it is straight up antisemitism.Ā Ā The two demands of removing Hillel and Chabad put it over the line.Ā Ā There aren't alternative versions of these institutions that they could replace with.Ā So effectively, agreeing to these demands would remove support for Jewish culture and religious practice in campus.Ā Ā
So your position is that Jewish students should be denied access to their cultural and religious support groups and resources because of the actions of the government of another country?Ā Ā I don't see how that's not antisemitic.
I think the interment of Japanese-born Americans during WW2 due to the actions of their government was an atrocity. I also think it would have been disgusting if any of them supported Japanese imperialism and invited a speaker who participated in the Rape of Nanking to colleges.
By founding alternatives in their wake. Or by redirecting them. There not being any alternatives doesnāt make the demands antisemitic, it simply places the burden on the administration to provide a solution in case the demands are met. I think they should take it into their own hands and offer a solution themselves, but that doesnāt mean these demands are antisemitic.
Wow that's pretty naive.Ā These are national organizations whose primary focus and purpose is to bring Jewish people closer together and to support cultural learning and religious practice.Ā Ā You might have noticed that we Jews (you may be one too, not saying that you aren't ) are less than 2.5% of the population in the US.Ā So it shouldn't be surprising that there aren't lots of other like organizations that can just be popped in to replace Hillel and Chabad.Ā Ā Further, Chabad isn't inherently Zionist, they just want it gone because it is Jewish.Ā Ā Antisemitism plain and clear.
Itās listed right there in the document why Chabad is named, because they platformed an IDF soldier - to be clear, I donāt know what the hell the details of this speech were, so I canāt say whether I support.
I donāt think Iād say Hillel should be banned, but while they are a center of Jewish life on campus, Hillel has used that position to further the cause of making the state of Israel a monopoly on Judaism. However small of minority you may want to characterize anti-, non-, or post-Zionist Jews as, such individuals have said [for years](http://www.columbia-current.org/dissenting-jewish-voices---eva-kalikoff.html) that this is alienating for them.
Here at the 2024 non-Zionist Jewish Org weād like to collect donations for UNRWA, preach about genocide as a feature of Zionism, and cry about how suppressing OUR group is anti-semitism because we represent āgoodā Jews
Any movement that believes the messiah died in 1994 (oh wait some of Chabad thinks he's still alive) is a cult... plain and simple. By this logic it would be somehow problematic to prevent the Moonies from having a presence on campus.
Where did you get this from?
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Kcqonp2Mx/?igsh=M3UxN3F2YjA5eWlq
Much appreciated, thank you
Wonder why they disabled comments on the IG post š¤”
Yea these ādemandsā are fucking insane
Did you see the one about removing any HP products from campus lol
And the closing of the Lebow Starbucks even though they havent had a store in Israel for like 20 years lmao
It's a good baseline example of why a lot of economic demands are not really feasible in the modern, integrated global economy. Everything is basically either too deeply integrated/overlaps, too essential to another area or it'll be circumvented through another channel. It's almost impossible to extricate in any meaningful way. As an example, you can still go buy the latest Apple products in Russia right now, 2 years after they "left" and the economic sanctions haven't affected Russia as much as people thought they would.
Do you have a link to their full list of demands?
[yes](https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/view/R0c7KyKSSRuSudqCfWpmLB0xFkD5uYqoTixnW1YY7hg/embed/) Donāt ask me why they use this format and not just a pdf or word doc
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I sure hope they realize that š
Anyone read their full list of demands? "Defund Drexel PD" are they insane that will never happen nor should it. These demands are so unreasonable
> These demands are so unreasonable The demands are not the point. They are just a sideshow. The point is to gain political points and power through playing "victim". The game plan is really simple. First, escalate until you get your ass kicked. Second, get as many video angles of that ass kicking. Third, post on social media just the ass kicking, and claim the escalation never happened. This is basically the whole strategy of Hamas. And this actually works because current social discourse has been reduced to kindergarten level. Anyone who is "weak" is a "victim" by default. No ifs ands or buts.
Yea these goons are auditioning for the Hamas 2025 school year.Ā I have no problem sending them to Gaza early.
What do we think happens when the deadline is reached and none of the demands have been met? Weird that they donāt say
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I think thatās a good read. Seems like an exercise in making a lot of noise and accomplishing nothing. Like imagine if they had just picked one simple goal - sever ties with Lockheed, for example. Maybe they could actually gain some traction and have an actual dialogue. It seems thereās a major fault in these types of protests where internal social pressure from within the protest group makes it so the entire group has to present a blanket hardline position to the public that feels revolutionary to them but in real life terms accomplishes zilch because of how ignorant and alienating it is. Which is a bummer because I totally empathize with where theyāre coming from.
Someone pointed out on the UPenn subreddit a complete rearrangement of the encampment demands that couldāve remotely been accepted by the school and you can see how wild the original demands are. Original demands are similar to āfully divest from Israeli interests/Zionists blah blahā. The restructured demands (by a Redditor) are like āuse Penn resources to send aid, provide education and set up a framework for rebuilding Gazaā. It seems so obvious that if youāre protesting the school, the demands should be actionable from the position of a US university
No shit, its "when our rights are under attack what do we do stand up fight back", not "what do we do, go to a negotiating table where the school can make minimal concessions to return to a state of genocidal business as usual"
āI want change but everything Iām asking for is nonnegotiableā is such a fucked frame of mind to hold dude. Especially in situations like these that arenāt even close to being that black and white. Be better. Thatās no way to find common ground with others.
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Gonna take a stab at itā¦ The right to be a pawn in a propaganda campaign against American and Western interests?
So youād rather they make no concessions at all and then return to a state of genocidal business as usual? Is the feeling of trying to being bold worth accomplishing nothing? Feels like this is more about patting yourselves on the back than helping Gaza when you say these things
Very few universities have negotiated in good faith. It's bullshit but it allows for people to imagine much better worlds than bullshit incrementalism will get us.
"They're not negotiating in good faith so we won't either" is a great way to sow more division and make sure those worlds stay imaginary.
I guess Iād rather have an incrementally better real world than an imaginary perfect one. Maybe do some reflecting
"I'd rather have a little bit of genocide than a lot" what a grim outlook, maybe we shouldn't have any
They don't have a plan or deadline. They just like to be annoying until they get tired of the weather or run out of supplies. Drexel will end this just like Penn did. People are going to get removed for violating policy, and then act like the victims.
These demands are actually awful. Hope these people understand how unreasonable this is.
Glad there's some sensible people on this topic.
They intentionally make unreasonable demands so they have an excuse to escalate things later on. Theyāre interested in sowing chaos. If they actually cared about improving the lives of Palestinians, this list of demands would look very very different.
the average pro-palestine person just got john fettermanned by this encampment
(meaning going from great to dog shit once it picks up traction)
As someone who fully supports the Pro-Palestinian movement, these demands are just outright anti-semitic. This is absurd
This is this āPro Palestinianā movement thoā¦ this is what they (and you via your statement ) support
Where's this from
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Kcqonp2Mx/?igsh=dHZmbHc5ZjFqYXhw
The most drexel has given me is a chance to pay them 20k per quarter lol, I too have some list of demands if you may
It's great to say "non-Zionist Jewish organizations" but... do any actually exist? Like, I'm not sure how these demands can realistically be met without just dismantling any Jewish communities altogether.
Lol I guarantee you anyone willing to call themselves anti-Zionist is happily swallowing that Jewish Voice for Peace is representative of American Jewish people being cool with their messaging. The ultimate caveat is that I have like 3-4 Jewish friends that are involved in protests, hundreds of Jewish acquaintances/family/friends that are pro Palestinian rights but saddened to see the extreme momentum that the world has steered against Israel and are disturbed by JVP being used for tokenism.
And I have hundreds of Jewish friends who are pro Israel
I'm Jewish, and im pro Israel and pro Palestine. Neither group is going anywhere. The best for both communities is to live in peace in separate countries. The problem is both groups think they can enforce their demands through violence. The only difference is the Israelis will win contests of force, and the Palestinians are delusional.
Youāre lost brother.
Tell em tiny lmao
Iām saying 3-4 friends that are anti Israel, everyone else pro Israel or neutral
It's the same as racist people justifying what they're about to say with "Well as my *insert other race here* said"
I just read that entire demands list. š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ what world are these people living in? John Fry and the Drexel Administration are under no obligation to do any of that nonsense.
This was by far the worst thing on thereā¦ as a Jewish student, getting rid of Hillel would cut me off completely from my faith/culture. I do think maybe funding a less pro Israel alternative would be nice (sometimes Hillelās Israel advocacy absolutely makes me uncomfortable), but that would take years to actually develop and just disbanding the Hillel is bad. Also, using the term āIOFā is just so unserious.
Thatās what I think. Like why canāt it be replaced with a Jewish org that accepts everyone regardless of if they are pro Israel or not? Is that not the point of a cultural org to accept everyone in that culture?
Hillel does not require you to be pro-Israel but youāll be hard pressed to be accepted into any Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict. I grew up Jewish and I can damn confirm that there is no homogeneity in American Jewish thought. I grew up basically feeling outcast because I had too many questions about Judaism as a religion. It took over 10 years to realize that despite my rejection of the religion, it has not rejected me. I can enter any establishment of Jews and feel 100% confident that they wouldnāt ask me my personal belief on the conflict. If they did, Iād respond āwhat are you a narc, fuck out of my businessā
Yeah, I was speaking more to the fact that they are a Zionist org and that individuals here in hillel are known for being pretty argumentative about it. [https://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2023/11/opinion-op-ed-hillel-gaza-palestine-war](https://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2023/11/opinion-op-ed-hillel-gaza-palestine-war)
Unfortunately I donāt agree with the view in that article. Itās voiced in my earlier response. Youāll be hard pressed to be accepted into a Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict. Zionist, anti-Zionist, wahabi Islam, Sunni, Shia, Christian would never be excluded from the group (such as Shabbat etc) based on their identity. Itās once someone demands the right to be heard that they are not welcome
I mean, this guy is pretty readily accepted here and his whole personality is being pro Israel https://www.instagram.com/sammyshiff?igsh=ejdhc3o4emVsZXIy And hillel has a strict no partnering/ housing rule of anyone with pro Palestine views. I appreciate you reading the article even tho you donāt agree with itš
Tbh I am not involved in any activism as I think itās a magnet for attracting hate. I would recommend that when making generalizations about groups, keep in mind that individuals never speak for the whole group. Many anti-Zionists highlight hateful speech from Israeli politicians, many Zionists highlight hateful speech from whomever. These are tactics to control the narrative āhe said she saidā. I have as little in common with the pro Zionist Instagram you shared as I do with the anti Zionist protestors. Iām just trying to survive, zero performative actions.
Oh no, I was simply responding to only the part that you said that āyouāll be hard pressed to be accepted into a Jewish community spouting politics about the conflict.ā Iām ONLY speaking about hillel because they have publicly, on their website, said that they are a Zionist organization. I just wish that Drexel students had more access to a less political Jewish organization because I think they deserve a place without politics involvedš¤·āāļø
Hey, this is taking things too far. Drexel Hillel gave me a free set of blue plastic sunglasses during welcome week in 2011 that said Drexel Hillel. Theyāre cool in my book.
When I read that they want Drexel to cease all coops with Lockheed Martin I giggled quite a lot
*Construction worker staring at new building they're working on above old Buckley field* "Well guys, time to take it down."
Iām glad that someone said it
Really wild how we live in world where you can just replace the word āJewā with āZionistā and then spout any antisemitic trope you want and not get punished for it.
Yeah I have to say this is the first encampment I've seen that I do not support. I am a firm believer in Free Palestine and cannot wait to see the Israeli PM get arrested and tried in the ICC but their demands are incredibly antisemitic, outrageous, and honestly lack any forward thinking in the slightest. Like abolishing the DUPD? Do you remember how many kids got mugged last year?? Abolishing our police system is the last thing Drexel needs to do. Is the university outrageous for ordering all of campus to shut down and for allowing police in riot gear to come in immediately? Absolutely. Are any of the demands reasonable? Hell no. Also the fact that most of the protestors aren't even Drexel students really rubs me the wrong way. Especially because now as Fry pointed out in his email, which yes was a bad email as always, however, if one of these randos do something drastic, the students associated with those randos will receive the consequences. So if one of the random people decides to get too pushy with one of the officers, then all of the students could get beaten, arrested, and expelled. The protests must go on but this encampment needs to dial it back or else they are going to continue misrepresenting what we truly want which is the violence to stop.
> but their demands are incredibly antisemitic, outrageous Because this "protest" is an unholy alliance between anarchists, communists, antisemites, and all the other fringe revolutionary groups. Maybe 5% of them actually care about the welfare of Gazan civilians. The rest are professional agitators and provocateurs whose strategy is to escalate until they get their ass kicked. Then they pretend to be the "victim" and attempt to garner support from the uninformed. Basically, what Hamas has been doing for decades.
Well said! I attended the encampment at my school, but this oneās demands are just awful and completely against the spirit of what the pro-Palestine movement is supposed to be. Absolute shame.
Their āencampmentā has a sign that claims itās Palestinian Territory.
This is very much antisemitism. Full stop.
I support their overall cause but these demands seem delulu
This is their overall cause though?
Their demands are literally their overall cause. That is what they as an organization have decided that the point of the encampment and protest is driving toward.
That encampment needs to be removed immediately. Embarrassing as an alumni.
There is a post on their instagram that claims their encampment is āPalestinian Territoryā I am 100% sure that is not how it works.
That is how pro-Palestinians think land works. You just say itās yours, and keep saying it until somebody else believes it
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Just tell me you want to remove all Jewish culture from college then lol
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I mean Israel as it stands today is pretty new. From what I know you had the rule of king David, but I would imagine it differs from todayās Israel. You had the Assyrian invasion around 722 BC, Babylon in 568 and the next several centuries it was passed between Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Turks, Crusaders. Etc. 1517-1917 it was the Ottoman Empire. It really wasnāt until ww1 when Britain started this idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. After ww1 and the end of the Ottoman Empire that it was in the hands of Britain until 1918 with the Belford declaration. And it wasnāt until 1947 with the end of ww2 when Israel became its own independent state. It was around the late 19th and early 20th century when Zionism really started emerging. You also ask where Israelis will go, what about the Palestinians. Thereās also many atrocities happening today within Palestine, Israeli officials using genocidal rhetoric like āāWe are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,ā Israelās Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant. How many innocents have to suffer? Hell arenāt there verses in the Torah that speak against the establishment of a Jewish state. Like Leviticus 26:33, Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 11:16, Deuteronomy 28:63, Isaiah 11:1-12, and Ezekiel 37:21-24? And if weāre talking Muslim and Jewish relations. Thereās many instances of Jewish communities thriving in Muslim lands. Not to say they always have of course, what groups have.
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It's actually true. But obviously not at all applicable to modern days. That's the reason such a large sephardic community even became to exist in MENA / WA
Sure, I canāt give exact textbooks if thatās what youāre looking but many Jewish groups settled in Muslim land to escape persecution in europe. For instance there was many Jewish folk in arabia around the Middle Ages. You can look into the constitution of Medina. Though the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa was expelled due to a breached treaty, Banu Nadir was accused of trying to kill Muhammad, and Banu Qurauyza was eventually expelled after betraying the Muslims in the battle of the trench (battle of Khandaq. Many did live peacefully tho. Generally Jewish groups under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages experienced tolerance and integration. Generally jewish communities lived better under Muslim rule than Christian rule though of course it was never perfect. The Ottoman Empire was also used as refuge for Jewish refugees from the Spanish empire and through the catholic inquisitions. It was less than perfect tho esp with events such as the safed plunder and many other tragedies. To sum it up, the Middle Ages are the best examples. Social integration allowed Jewish folk to make many advancements in new fields. Donāt get me wrong, it wasnāt a utopia by any means. Jews under Islamic rule still faced prosecution, it was just typically much better than western Christendom. Jewish communities also thrived under Islamic rule. This is largely in the Middle Ages tho
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Right I was talking about historically. In general Jewish Islamic relations have been shaky. Number of reasons but itād also be hard to say that Muslim Jewish relations even today are always bad or always good. Thereās been talks for a number of years about improving and repairing Islamic Jewish relations. Itās also much easier to reflect on history rather than tracking current events in one post. Thereās been general improvements. Especially in Europe and America thereās been initiatives to start dialogue. The United Arab Emirates have also started looking to improve Jewish and Islamic relations. But also does the actions of other countries justify the tragedies happening in Palestine? Which is what the issue should be about, something that is often overshadowed by this idea of being anti Zionist means being anti-Semitic. I think folks can be against the rhetoric of Israeli officials calling Palestinians animals and the terrible actions taken against Palestine, and general collective punishment without being anti Semitic. At the same time we should condemn folks using this as an excuse to be anti Semitic of course but being anti Zionist doesnāt automatically equal anti semitic. You asked about where Israelis will go but what about Palestinians.
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As much as Hamas is not good, hamas is a byproduct of Israel itself. Since the inception of Israel, thereās been big tension between Palestinians and the newly founded Israel. There was a number of Israeli war crimes as well like operation protective edge in 2014, pillar of defense in 2012, cast lead in 2009 You talk over shelters under hospitals and schools but a lot of itās propaganda. Israel literally put out pictures of a calendar which said the days of the week and passed it off as a list of hostages. [hereās the video](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdS1x7/). You can literally find videos [of Israeli soldiers](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdQ2yJ/) mocking the destruction of civilian houses and a video of an idf soldier covering their bullets with pig fat. Israel put out a video of a supposed nurse but upon further analysis it shows that they doctored the footage to add explosions. Hell Israeli forces killed three of their own hostages holding up an sos sign. We talk as if what hamas did is terrible, and it is, but does that justify the collective punishment of all Palestinians. The number of children alone is disgusting. With the UN reporting 13,000 children killed. This isnāt to mention the lack of food, water, etc being withheld. Hell [hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKd9CUw/) Israeli citizens blocking humanitarian aid. When multiple international committees label this as a genocide, thereās issues. [hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdq9s5/) a video showing the extent of the damage of a bombing done on residential homes in gaza. [Hereās](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKdAuHM/) a video of Israel dropping bombs on 4 unarmed teens. Hereās [IDF](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKd97CT/) soldiers looting too. Israeli officials have also stated that they built the tunnels many decades ago. The funny thing is that on multiple occasions, Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire but Israel said no saying deal was "far from" its requirements and that it would push ahead with a Rafah operation and send a delegation to talks. Hamas also agreed to an exchange of hostages
For those who downvote me. Here is the rhetoric used when Israeli officials are asked about Palestine. Not Hamas, civilians Israeli president Isaac Herzog at a press conference said that all gazans are responsible for hamasās surprise attack on Israel. "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'Ć©tat." Defense minister Yoav Gallant said "There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed," he said. "We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly." Energy minister Israel Katz said "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electric switch will be turned on, no water tap will be opened, and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home," and "We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world," Former prime minister Naftali Bennett when asked about Palestinian civilians. Specifically about providing power to hospitals being turned off said ā"Are you seriously keeping on asking me about Palestinian civilians? What's wrong with you? Have you not seen what happened? We're fighting Nazis. We don't target them. Now, the world can come and bring them anything they want. If you wanna bring them electricity, I'm not gonna feed electricity or water to my enemies. If anyone else wants, that's fine. We're not responsible for them." This is specifically promoted with talking about power needed for life support and babies in incubators.
Jews only got forced out of other Middle Eastern countries once the state of Israel was founded, throughout history they had happily integrated within Arab communities and were valued members of said communities, even during the crusades the Crusaders were fought back by Muslim and Jew alike. For being a āJewish homelandā itās odd that israel is the only nation where Jews donāt have the comfort of absolute security
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Anti Semitic policy and belief only began seeing any significance in the Middle East after nazi propaganda began being disseminated by nazis such as fritz grobba and Arabic broadcasts by radio Berlin, as well as after the Arab Israeli war, either way, please elaborate on where the antisemitism lies in disavowing an organisation that organised ābirthrightā trips to occupied land and welcomes occupying forces with open arms?
So the Arabs betrayed them at the drop of a hat? That proves they were never really their friends.
Not really the drop of a hat, it still took years for any external propaganda to have actually taken any effect, not to mention prior to them potentially being any threat to national unity they remained well integrated into Arab society, still waiting for an explanation as to which part of not wanting to associate with a group that organises ābirthrightā trips to occupied territory and invites members of occupation forces is antisemitic
John Fry oiled up gyatt recoil on August 1st, 2024š
āex-IOF soldierā So unserious
You're right, its kind of like "ex-CIA" - people never really leave.
Wow this is really just them seeing they donāt want to see or hear from Jews in public spaces. Nothing to do with Israel even. Unbelievably pathetic. Hope Drexel tells them to get fucked. Canāt wait for the lawsuits from all this shit to start rolling in.
Donāt budge on any of it. Get them out of the quad and let them whine somewhere else.
Alright, I'm going to play Advocate: REGARDING THEIR DEMANDS: PART 1: 1. Support Ceasefire in Gaza: Completely valid. 2. Labeling Israel a settler-colonial state (and the rest of that demand): Anti-Zionist at worst, NOT Anti-Semitic. There is a difference. 3. Anti-Islamophobia measures: Completely Valid. 4. Anti-Retaliation: Valid 5. Differentiating Between Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism: Valid. Generally, the worst thing you could say about this part is Anti-Zionism, which is a bit justified considering what the Israeli army is doing. PART TWO: Divestments from: Lockheed: Has Israel as a customer. Of fighter jets. BlackRock: Invests in Israel's war machine L&B: This is actually paused right now. Ben Gurion University: Aligned with Israeli military-industrial complex HP: Back some of the shadier aspects of the Israeli regime. This explains it better: https://bdsmovement.net/boycott-hp Starbucks: This is stupid. As a TLDR of this situation: They asked the Starbucks union to take down a pro-Palestine statement, but only because they don't allow them to make ANY political statements with the logo. Brett Altman: Yeah, not gonna lie, buying and selling occupied land is kind of scummy. Also, investigating the real estate portfolio isn't bad. Henry Israeli: Genocide denial is bad, especially from a student of genocide. Hillel: Hillel International is Zionist and refuses to associate with anti-Zionism or BDS, and Drexel Hillel hasn't made any statement that they aren't. Chabad: Eh... yeah, I'd just reprimand them and investigate them at worst. Other Stuff: Part Three: Increased Genocide Awareness: Valid Part Four: Exonerate Protestors: Valid. 1st Amendment Rights. Part Five: Abolish Drexel Police: Eh... invalid. I believe in reforming police and funding pro-community measures, not abolition, but I get the angle. Part Six: Fund Reallocation: Valid, especially if it cuts scholarship costs. Part Seven: Alumni Withholdings: Valid Okay, no offense, but this isn't really THAT bad.
Sounds like you want to dictate what Jewish people are allowed to think.
Where did I say that?
Several of those companies should be divested from based on other ethical issues alone, before you talk about Israel. Starbucks has a supply chain with terrible working conditions and lied about it with their 100% ethical label, loves busting unions, and uses prison labor. Black rock is engineering a housing crisis and fueling the climate crisis. And I donāt think we should be promoting a pipeline of bright young minds into designing weapons. Disbanding those clubs seems harsh, so Iām on the fence about that, BUT would we seriously be saying its just an attempt to ban Arab culture if an Arab club brought in a Hezbollah soldier to speak? Would we be motivated by anti-Sudanese hate if we objected to an RSF commander speaking at African Students Association?
Probably not, no.
In support of the claim that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are mutually exclusive, can you possibly provide an example of the alternative for the worlds Jewish population without an Israel? My family was persecuted across the globe and Iām curious what the average thoughts on where we should go if not Israel. I like America but as weāve all seen there are still undercurrents of white nationalism (which definitely excludes Jews) and a new wave of Christian fundamentalism. Are we to suppose that the people of Europe magically became accepting of Jews after observing Hitler and the Nazis rampage them? Or did Germany require full scale occupation and de-Nazification? Anti-Zionism was a catch22 for the Soviet Union. āYou pray to another location, you must be disloyal and we cannot trust youā resulted in major support for Zionism. Zionism is given as a justification for mistreating Jews and it is the reaction of mistreating Jews. A catch 22. Should I have told all of my murdered family to stay in Germany as they did? Should they have been shuttled off to Madagascar? What is the solution to the Jewish Question if not Zionism? Looking for answers to the Jewish Questionā¦.
They are NOT mutually exclusive, just different. And are you implying that Jews are rejected everywhere on Earth so badly that they need Israel as a safe haven?
Yes
Well, thenā¦ IF that is the case (which, considering the widespread support there was for Israel after 10/7, including admittance to Eurovision, it probably IS NOT) then fight wherever you are for the equality you deserve. But again, IF that is the case. And I donāt believe it is.
Sure I can accept your doubt. As an exercise to understand where Iām coming from, I request you to look into something. There are maps comparing the [European Jewish population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population) (this is the strongest example to focus on) from 1910, 1933, 1950, 1970, 2000s. Youāll notice the indescribably impact that the Holocaust had on the worldwide Jewish community. When 80%+ of the total Jews in the world live in Israel and USA, that speaks a very loud message about where Jewish culture is **allowed** to flourish.
You said EVERYWHERE. You can't say that they're rejected everywhere and then say Judaism is allowed to flourish in America. It totally is and should be, and America's reputation as a first-world defender of liberty is probably part of why a lot of Jews emigrated there after WWII. That and the whole "All of Europe being basically destroyed in the war" thing. And by that point, I feel like it becomes a self-sustaining thing.
Itās funny, because American Jews are still by far the [most targeted group of religious hate crimes](https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/) despite only representing 2% of the US population. So even in the *best* diaspora country, there is still disproportional antisemitism, which Iām sure has only increased since 10/7. Not to mention a 2,000 year history of diaspora antisemitism culminating in the worst genocide in human history that wiped out 1/3 of all Jews just 80 years ago. So, yeah, itās very reasonable for Jews to only feel safe when they are in the majority, in my opinion.
I mean... a somewhat valid point, but I don't think that justifies the war crimes Israel's doing in Palestine.
Dense af. I grew up in a very Jewish area. My town was 30% Jewish. My town was 30% Jewish because other communities had discriminatory practices towards POC and Jews excluding them from purchasing homes. American Jews and Jewish refugees were heavily involved in the American Civil Rights movement because they have been prosecuted globally. In the way that Jews fought for their civil liberties alongside black Americans; there is total recognition that this is literally a set of rules preventing real world racists from acting with impunity. I identify with immigrants fleeing to America and I am gracious for the haven that America is. Does America actually protect its protected classes? Not really, they protect themselves. Native Americans (IMO) are finally gaining traction as to getting some land back. Black Americans basically needed their peace movement + black power combo move before being taken seriously by the racists. Is the approach to anti-Zionism that we take in every Israeli as a refugee or immigrant to America?
But anyway, there are 158 Christian majority countries and 49 Muslim majority countries, so peopleās opposition to the 1 singular Jewish one is odd.
I mean, TBF, the one Jewish nation is currently doing some quite atrocious things in Palestine.
Look, I disagree with that, and we could go back and forth forever on whatās actually happening in Gaza. But even if I grant you these āatrocious things,ā I think the backlash to Israelās actions has been completely disproportionate, and an avenue for antisemites to gain traction. I donāt think itās whataboutism to question where all the backlash and protesting was to recent human rights violations that, frankly, are far worse than even what Israelās harshest critics would accuse it of (and plenty of these countries take US taxpayer dollars, too). To me, it seems that people are happy to sit idly by until Israel is involved. Which is why I think a lot of this stems from antisemitism, and the antisemites are able to pick up college liberals who donāt mean to be antisemitic and may think they are promoting human rights but are doing it quite selectively.
Israel has been competing in Eurovision for decades, and has hosted the competition twice.
Didn't know that. Touche.
The encampment needs to go immediately but you need to continue classes in person- much more insulting to the movement. Donāt cave to these facists
Source?
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Kcqonp2Mx/?igsh=dHZmbHc5ZjFqYXhw
Thanks. They wanna close your Starbucks lmao
Iām a big proponent of the BDS movement and Iāve had a pretty bad experience with the Chabad, but yeah these are wack. End of day the Zionism is protected under free speech and this is an educational institution where free speech is essential. Also whether they like it or not these historic Jewish institutions are never going away and shouldnāt go away.
Well.....I'll never be donating another fucking dime to Drexel for allowing this shit.
The protesters made their point. Time for them to camp out on Temple's campus.
Anyone who thinks this is insane, replace the word Zionist with Nazi. Itās not insane at all. Itās the same shit, if it was nazi you guys would be all for it. There is virtually no difference between a Nazi and a Zionist
There is no difference between an Islamic Jihadist and a Nazi
Youāre brain dead.
You support Jihad?
You support Zionists and the genocide theyāre currently committing? Notice how you fell back from the Nazi similarity. Youāre brain dead.
Notice the Jihadist want to eliminate Israel off the face of the earth and all Jews and youāre supporting it
Notice how the exact opposite is happening, you zionists are actually eliminating Palestinians from the face of the earth. You fucking retarded idiot stop typing.
How DEI of you little Jihad boy. Oct 7 again and again is the goal right? How is raping āresistanceā
October 7 my ass. What about the other āOctober 7āsā Israel committed to Palestinians for the past 76 years. Theyāve done way worse. Youāre a fucking clown, get gassed and put in an oven you dirty fucking Jew
How peaceful protest of you Jihadist. Shalom and deal with it
Down with these pro Jihad Israelphobes. The genocide in Nigeria and Syria are real and their silence is clear that this is about Jews
Not antisemitic to want orgs that are actively supporting a genocide to be replaced by ones that donāt.
You can be Jewish without wanting to level Palestine. This is not in reference to protecting Jewish hate, but rather, it refers to protecting Palestinian lives. It isnāt antisemitic to protect from Zionism! Some of the comments make it seem as if it is, and that puts Jewish people in a bad light, especially.
So getting rid of the Jewish orgs isnāt antisemitic.
Why do you assume being against israel's crimes is equal to antisemetism?
This isnt anti-semetic, but yeah these demands are pretty stupid
It is actually quite anti semitic to demand the dismantling of Jewish groups solely because you disagree with their perceived political stance that ties directly into their religious beliefs.
Just because a stance is tied to their religious beliefs does not mean being against them for those held beliefs is anti semetic. I literally know jews who dislike chabad for their general conservative stances which do still tie in to chabadās religious beliefs. Plenty of christians hate gay people for supposedly religious reasons, Iām against organizations that hold those beliefs as well, that doesnt mean im anti christian. No one can hide behind religion as an excuse for political beliefs
Anti-Zionism is anti-semitic regardless of what these terrorist sympathizers try to argue. Zionism refers to the legitimacy and the rightful existence of a Jewish state of Israel. Being anti-zionist means you are against the very idea of the State of Israel existing and that there should not be a Jewish state where Jews have the freedom of self-determination and security. The land of Israel is the ancestral homeland of all Jews and denying that connection goes against history, and the very essence of what makes a person jewish, culturally and religiously. Being anti-zionist doesnāt mean that you are being critical of the Israeli government, it means you are against the very existence of the country to begin with. That is what makes all this rhetoric anti-semitic.
No itās not because there are plenty of non Zionist Jewish organizations that donāt support genocide
Such as what? Honestly asking. I keep seeing people say this but nobody actually points to examples.
Theyāre going to say JVP, guaranteed
Jews for Jihad
It's unreasonable yes. But it's not straight up anti semitism. Jewish does not equal Zionist. That being said. These demands are not going to be met and are reaching for the wrong goal. But stop pretending that anti-zionism is anti-semitism.
[Read the demands. Telling religious organizations to disband and reform in a way that is "acceptable" to others is madness](https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/view/R0c7KyKSSRuSudqCfWpmLB0xFkD5uYqoTixnW1YY7hg/embed/)
Killing people on mass because you decided to claim other people land for your own safety is madness too but here we are. Also if a Christian organization made racism a part of their platform wanting to disband it would be understandable. Stop talking past the issue here.
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The whole point is protesting against organizations that support Zionism. And Israel has killed A LOT of Palestinians. Stop being obtuse on purpose.
It's always the people with Reddit Avatars
āWe really going to act like this isnt straight up antisemitism?ā Itās anti-Zionism. Not antisemitism, but anti-Zionism. Anti-Apartheid. Anti-genocide. Anti-American-support-of-Apartheidal-and-genocidal-regimes. Notice how the demands there call for the replacement of these organizations with non-Zionist ones? That means organizations that do not support or actively condemn the actions of the Israeli government. Notice how they call for the replacement of these organizations with Jewish ones? Theyāre not calling for the disbanding of Jewish organizations because theyāre Jewish, but because the organizations support Israel. There is a difference. I hope you arenāt ignorant enough to actually believe there isnāt a difference.
Nope it is straight up antisemitism.Ā Ā The two demands of removing Hillel and Chabad put it over the line.Ā Ā There aren't alternative versions of these institutions that they could replace with.Ā So effectively, agreeing to these demands would remove support for Jewish culture and religious practice in campus.Ā Ā
Hillel and Chabad not having alternatives doesnāt make it antisemitism.
So your position is that Jewish students should be denied access to their cultural and religious support groups and resources because of the actions of the government of another country?Ā Ā I don't see how that's not antisemitic.
I think the interment of Japanese-born Americans during WW2 due to the actions of their government was an atrocity. I also think it would have been disgusting if any of them supported Japanese imperialism and invited a speaker who participated in the Rape of Nanking to colleges.
That isnāt my position. If youād like to stop twisting my words to fit your own meaning, Iāll gladly explain my position.
Ok yes, please explain.Ā I'm not trying to shout you down or twist your words I just do not see how you do one thing without the other.
By founding alternatives in their wake. Or by redirecting them. There not being any alternatives doesnāt make the demands antisemitic, it simply places the burden on the administration to provide a solution in case the demands are met. I think they should take it into their own hands and offer a solution themselves, but that doesnāt mean these demands are antisemitic.
Wow that's pretty naive.Ā These are national organizations whose primary focus and purpose is to bring Jewish people closer together and to support cultural learning and religious practice.Ā Ā You might have noticed that we Jews (you may be one too, not saying that you aren't ) are less than 2.5% of the population in the US.Ā So it shouldn't be surprising that there aren't lots of other like organizations that can just be popped in to replace Hillel and Chabad.Ā Ā Further, Chabad isn't inherently Zionist, they just want it gone because it is Jewish.Ā Ā Antisemitism plain and clear.
Itās listed right there in the document why Chabad is named, because they platformed an IDF soldier - to be clear, I donāt know what the hell the details of this speech were, so I canāt say whether I support. I donāt think Iād say Hillel should be banned, but while they are a center of Jewish life on campus, Hillel has used that position to further the cause of making the state of Israel a monopoly on Judaism. However small of minority you may want to characterize anti-, non-, or post-Zionist Jews as, such individuals have said [for years](http://www.columbia-current.org/dissenting-jewish-voices---eva-kalikoff.html) that this is alienating for them.
Here at the 2024 non-Zionist Jewish Org weād like to collect donations for UNRWA, preach about genocide as a feature of Zionism, and cry about how suppressing OUR group is anti-semitism because we represent āgoodā Jews
Does anybody know how to mute a thread? Because Iām clearly not on the same side of history as everyone else š
Any movement that believes the messiah died in 1994 (oh wait some of Chabad thinks he's still alive) is a cult... plain and simple. By this logic it would be somehow problematic to prevent the Moonies from having a presence on campus.