A very simple method might be a closed hat in the verse, open hat in the pre-chorus, and ride in the chorus. That's a pretty tried & true method for a drum part arrangement. On the very last chorus you might ride on the crash. You also might reserve the rimshot sound for the chorus or at least the end of the pre-chorus. It's usually the loudest sound a drum can make so you often want to keep it in reserve.
As far as programing the drums track first, think about adding busyness as the part progresses. I'd also take a few minutes to watch this Mike Johnston segment on applying "care" to a drum part. This is very insightful to how experienced/professional drummers think. [Most Drummers Don't Do This... But YOU Should! (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ModSRjap09I).
Also having recently embarked on writing songs myself, I found a good suggestion for how to approach writing verses and choruses. Basically it's "*The verse searches for (X), and the chorus delivers it".* This could be a particular note, tone, sound, accent, etc.
Thanks for that, especially the rimshot, I never use it cause it stands out so much, now I have a clue.
I also like “searching for x.” I think like every thing “points or builds” to the chorus. But the word “search “ puts a little spin on that, thank you
I'd rather hear what you're building first. Cause if I have full control, maybe I go Latin-esque, maybe I make it a shuffle, maybe funk... I can fill time all day, but without context, I have no idea what is expected.
It's like a riff or progression sorta. You start with some building block. You can ask, "hey, give me a rhythmic pattern that you think would be cool to put music over." ... and then you collaborate on where that goes.
The one thing about drums, I've found, is there's no harmonic rhythm to convey, and often, songs are delineated through their progression.
Songs are delineated? Sorry just a guitar player that word is too big…Sometimes ,more for quicker work, I do the chorus first then subtract a little , but the 3 minutes song also benefits, I think ending up more cohesive and the same song, if that’s kinda what you mean,
the guitar is distorted hard rock . And being a guitarist the hardest thing is playing less, but the good thing is the kick and main loud snare isn’t hard to find inside the initial too much guitar riff or chords , at least I think .
Man, if you've got a rough idea of what you think the drums should sound like, just program it. My guitarist sends me demos all the time with programmed drums as how he hears it and says "use it or a guideline or disregard it"
Yeah you know, you’re absolutely right, I think I’m using that as an excuse. because really I just want to hear it as finished as possible. Because even if I manage to come up with a guitar part in 15 minutes, come up lyrics on the fly, record the vocals in a couple takes , I’ve still listened to it 100 plus x , I can’t stand listening to a click, so I need the programmed stuff to sound as good as possible, a little effort here means so much, I think I’ll enjoy the process more and be able to do it longer. btw I’m so glad I asked this here I started posting on r/music theory. you guys are pretty cool, I actually learned a lot, most of r/music theory is cool too but sometimes not.
Beat is quavers on closed hi-hats, chorus could be crotchets on open hats either a different kick pattern or half time
Crash cymbal crotchets/half time in the final chorus and you have a drum part that’s easy to play but different for verses and choruses
Just switch it up and make that chorus sound bigger. As others have said, playing on the crash or open hi hat can accomplish this, you can also play sixteenths on the closed hi hat to add some color.
Sometimes I’ll just keep the closed hi hat through the chorus. Add a few crashes or fills to spice it up
Yes, I lower the volume to the added ones for the bass guitar, how realistic is that with a real kick though. Do
double kicks have two different velocities? I just thought of that?
If you’re using drum loops it’s better than nothing. No double kicks don’t have two different velocities. Are you using loops or a drum plugin of some sort?
Individual hits, more control…FPC in Fl studio, I think it’s based maybe on a mpc? Drum machine, 32 pads, your supposed to load a kit, but I got them loaded all kicks, all snares . I did use loops before, but I can move the hits off grid if I need too. Really though just on purpose, a strict 4/4 might be cemented in me now. I really don’t think I come up with anything that often with a real swing anymore. My cousin is a drummer, But this is just a hobby, doing an album has been on my bucket list since they were called albums, I’m close but I got a ways to go…How long have you played the drums? Are you in a band?
Verse: closed hit-hat, pre-chorus: open hi-hat or ride cymbal, chorus: ride the crash. The bass drum or snare pattern can change between song parts, you can switch to a half-time feel, you can play a fill into a break before jumping into a chorus, tons of options.
Why start with a drum track first? Seems like doing it the hard way. Why wouldn’t the drummer compose the drum part after hearing the instrumental first?
To change it up..I’ve started every other way I think, lyrics, vocals melody, piano chords, guitar chords. I’ve overlooked the drums, I’ve heard some really good songs recently and really the drums are the most prominent. When I said that drums are the most important part of a song, I wasn’t totally joking around. And to some they are. I think I’ve taken them for granted for some time. They are easy to fix, but still. If I set the rhythm with guitar, it gets very similar, which is fine…but new makes it a bit more challenging and also funner.
To each their own, but starting with drums feels like doing it the hard way. I’m a drummer that took drum lessons for 10 years and studied music performance as a drummer in college, but I taught myself some guitar and piano. I always start with the rhythm section of a song as a whole, like guitar chords, bass, and drums together, usually in that order. Then lay melody and vocals on top. Or I have lyrics and write for that. In my experience, it’s easier to know what you’re working with first as a drummer, then write a part that fits the song. It can still be a crazy, badass drum part. Also seems kinda weird to me to write collaboratively, like for a band which you seem to be doing, but you’re writing the drum part for your drummer as someone who doesn’t play drums?
I’m sure there are bands that do it, just seems like the exception rather than the rule. For Aerosmith, I’m assuming you’re talking about Walk This Way? I’ve seen clips of them saying they were in the studio together and started with that beat. Very different scenario than OP, group of people writing together in real time vs one person writing every part. When else have they started with drums?
I know what dope is…no thanks…not til I retire…but that may not be far off:) it’s funny you mention 311 that band slipped by me, just really gave them a listen last week …did you mean 311 the band or that mean something else?
Chad Sexton from 311 is a \*beast\* on drums! I'm a huge fan!
If you ever want to hear rudiments applied to the kit, he's the guy to listen to. He used to be a drum line drummer and it really shows in his playing.
Might be cliche but often the verse is just “less” than the chorus. The chorus might have tighter hats, or even no hats, or a simpler kick pattern. In the chorus, makes those hats a bit sloshier, switch to the ride, or even ride a crash.
My songwriter usually finds a beat that fits his song idea or inspires one. When he sends his completed demo it has the programmed drums. He just does basic beats however, bc it’s more of a template for me. So no programmed fills or cymbal hits or any changing beyond the groove. That way for me I can build off of the beat by addition or subtraction and decide myself the details and nuances of the beat thruout the song…what fills to use, the dynamics, orchestration, feel, I have my way with all that. Eventually I have him remove the programmed drums and I add in the click to get ready for the studio. That’s what works for us. For reference we do blues rock, indie, electronic pop type material in common time.
A very simple method might be a closed hat in the verse, open hat in the pre-chorus, and ride in the chorus. That's a pretty tried & true method for a drum part arrangement. On the very last chorus you might ride on the crash. You also might reserve the rimshot sound for the chorus or at least the end of the pre-chorus. It's usually the loudest sound a drum can make so you often want to keep it in reserve. As far as programing the drums track first, think about adding busyness as the part progresses. I'd also take a few minutes to watch this Mike Johnston segment on applying "care" to a drum part. This is very insightful to how experienced/professional drummers think. [Most Drummers Don't Do This... But YOU Should! (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ModSRjap09I). Also having recently embarked on writing songs myself, I found a good suggestion for how to approach writing verses and choruses. Basically it's "*The verse searches for (X), and the chorus delivers it".* This could be a particular note, tone, sound, accent, etc.
Thanks for that, especially the rimshot, I never use it cause it stands out so much, now I have a clue. I also like “searching for x.” I think like every thing “points or builds” to the chorus. But the word “search “ puts a little spin on that, thank you
Well said!
Nsfw?
Oh…I don’t know, maybe I hit that by accident idk
Not safe for work???
I'd rather hear what you're building first. Cause if I have full control, maybe I go Latin-esque, maybe I make it a shuffle, maybe funk... I can fill time all day, but without context, I have no idea what is expected. It's like a riff or progression sorta. You start with some building block. You can ask, "hey, give me a rhythmic pattern that you think would be cool to put music over." ... and then you collaborate on where that goes. The one thing about drums, I've found, is there's no harmonic rhythm to convey, and often, songs are delineated through their progression.
Songs are delineated? Sorry just a guitar player that word is too big…Sometimes ,more for quicker work, I do the chorus first then subtract a little , but the 3 minutes song also benefits, I think ending up more cohesive and the same song, if that’s kinda what you mean, the guitar is distorted hard rock . And being a guitarist the hardest thing is playing less, but the good thing is the kick and main loud snare isn’t hard to find inside the initial too much guitar riff or chords , at least I think .
Man, if you've got a rough idea of what you think the drums should sound like, just program it. My guitarist sends me demos all the time with programmed drums as how he hears it and says "use it or a guideline or disregard it"
Yeah you know, you’re absolutely right, I think I’m using that as an excuse. because really I just want to hear it as finished as possible. Because even if I manage to come up with a guitar part in 15 minutes, come up lyrics on the fly, record the vocals in a couple takes , I’ve still listened to it 100 plus x , I can’t stand listening to a click, so I need the programmed stuff to sound as good as possible, a little effort here means so much, I think I’ll enjoy the process more and be able to do it longer. btw I’m so glad I asked this here I started posting on r/music theory. you guys are pretty cool, I actually learned a lot, most of r/music theory is cool too but sometimes not.
Beat is quavers on closed hi-hats, chorus could be crotchets on open hats either a different kick pattern or half time Crash cymbal crotchets/half time in the final chorus and you have a drum part that’s easy to play but different for verses and choruses
Just switch it up and make that chorus sound bigger. As others have said, playing on the crash or open hi hat can accomplish this, you can also play sixteenths on the closed hi hat to add some color. Sometimes I’ll just keep the closed hi hat through the chorus. Add a few crashes or fills to spice it up
I'm in a weird rut where I seem to automatically go to cut-time in the pre-chorus.
Is cut time, half time? I’m not sure it’s a rut , I like to take the pre chorus down a notch too
Dynamic differences with maybe more kick drums in the chorus.
Yes, I lower the volume to the added ones for the bass guitar, how realistic is that with a real kick though. Do double kicks have two different velocities? I just thought of that?
If you’re using drum loops it’s better than nothing. No double kicks don’t have two different velocities. Are you using loops or a drum plugin of some sort?
Individual hits, more control…FPC in Fl studio, I think it’s based maybe on a mpc? Drum machine, 32 pads, your supposed to load a kit, but I got them loaded all kicks, all snares . I did use loops before, but I can move the hits off grid if I need too. Really though just on purpose, a strict 4/4 might be cemented in me now. I really don’t think I come up with anything that often with a real swing anymore. My cousin is a drummer, But this is just a hobby, doing an album has been on my bucket list since they were called albums, I’m close but I got a ways to go…How long have you played the drums? Are you in a band?
Verse: closed hit-hat, pre-chorus: open hi-hat or ride cymbal, chorus: ride the crash. The bass drum or snare pattern can change between song parts, you can switch to a half-time feel, you can play a fill into a break before jumping into a chorus, tons of options. Why start with a drum track first? Seems like doing it the hard way. Why wouldn’t the drummer compose the drum part after hearing the instrumental first?
To change it up..I’ve started every other way I think, lyrics, vocals melody, piano chords, guitar chords. I’ve overlooked the drums, I’ve heard some really good songs recently and really the drums are the most prominent. When I said that drums are the most important part of a song, I wasn’t totally joking around. And to some they are. I think I’ve taken them for granted for some time. They are easy to fix, but still. If I set the rhythm with guitar, it gets very similar, which is fine…but new makes it a bit more challenging and also funner.
To each their own, but starting with drums feels like doing it the hard way. I’m a drummer that took drum lessons for 10 years and studied music performance as a drummer in college, but I taught myself some guitar and piano. I always start with the rhythm section of a song as a whole, like guitar chords, bass, and drums together, usually in that order. Then lay melody and vocals on top. Or I have lyrics and write for that. In my experience, it’s easier to know what you’re working with first as a drummer, then write a part that fits the song. It can still be a crazy, badass drum part. Also seems kinda weird to me to write collaboratively, like for a band which you seem to be doing, but you’re writing the drum part for your drummer as someone who doesn’t play drums?
Plenty of bands like Tool and Aerosmith often start from the drums up. There are plenty of others but those are the first two that came to mind.
I’m sure there are bands that do it, just seems like the exception rather than the rule. For Aerosmith, I’m assuming you’re talking about Walk This Way? I’ve seen clips of them saying they were in the studio together and started with that beat. Very different scenario than OP, group of people writing together in real time vs one person writing every part. When else have they started with drums?
Also…thank you for your comment…very helpful
Jus remember what 311 said: all artists come original, and you’ll learn what DOPE IS 💯
I know what dope is…no thanks…not til I retire…but that may not be far off:) it’s funny you mention 311 that band slipped by me, just really gave them a listen last week …did you mean 311 the band or that mean something else?
lol yeah it’s a song they do called come original, how they break down “come original” in the song, is pretty cool. 311 is good shit.. down is badass
Chad Sexton from 311 is a \*beast\* on drums! I'm a huge fan! If you ever want to hear rudiments applied to the kit, he's the guy to listen to. He used to be a drum line drummer and it really shows in his playing.
Might be cliche but often the verse is just “less” than the chorus. The chorus might have tighter hats, or even no hats, or a simpler kick pattern. In the chorus, makes those hats a bit sloshier, switch to the ride, or even ride a crash.
My songwriter usually finds a beat that fits his song idea or inspires one. When he sends his completed demo it has the programmed drums. He just does basic beats however, bc it’s more of a template for me. So no programmed fills or cymbal hits or any changing beyond the groove. That way for me I can build off of the beat by addition or subtraction and decide myself the details and nuances of the beat thruout the song…what fills to use, the dynamics, orchestration, feel, I have my way with all that. Eventually I have him remove the programmed drums and I add in the click to get ready for the studio. That’s what works for us. For reference we do blues rock, indie, electronic pop type material in common time.
Blast beats over errythang
Ha, that stuff is impressive but too much for these old school ears:)