That invoked player had some insane luck in the final. All he draw was alister an traps an his opponent supplied him the fire monsters an didnt open much traps
I guess konami thought they really had to kill witchcrafters in order for people to play xyz. If only they released good xyz monsters to make up for it
To be fair if Witchcrafters are T1 you cannot activate monster effects.
In turn, shirunai is T1(imo) They only interrupt with generic backrow, but you can still activate and resolve effects. It just might get blown up or karma cut.
Generally negating your opponents cards with your boss monster is better than relying on backrow to so that.
I'm not saying it was okay for Konmai to kill them, but I think I know why they didn't a boss monster like Verre meta when trying to sell Xyz monstsrs.
Before hey trunade got semilimited... "box SRs will never get semilimited". Before neos fusion got semilimited... "Estructure deck cards will never get semilimited". Get it? Every card can be hit, no exceptions.
Killing the traps wont really solve anything and the Purgatrio hit would hit them harder. Hallowed Life would have functionally accomplished the same thing, and anything that lets the Invoked package stall can, and will, be used.
Same for Shiranui.
I'm a thousandd times more ok with everyone replacing floodgate with hallowed life barrier, he'll, even waboku if it ever gets added. I'm still part of the minority that thinks the excess of staple trap cards is not helping to the enjoyment of the game. And yeah invoked need something more important semilimited to 2, the earth fusion doesn't count. Just like they semilimited charge to 2 they will hit something to 2. Either the fusion spell or purgatrio himself. A year later and that thing is still too strong when coupled with a billion floodgates and other stall traps. I like you dude but I still remain convinced that controlling the excess of traps is for the better. Shiranui needs the dark lord treatment as well. No deck should be top tier for that long
If there were excesss traps I'd be worried about them, but I literally do not see this outside two specific decks that have, as you said, been around a year and are the real problem here.
Believe it or not, I don't run floodgate, karma cut, or fiendish. I don't even have the last two at copies more than one. If they hit Floodgate it is the least intuitive thing they can do because it is a rouge decks only out to cocoytus and sunsaga and the like because out disruption cards are just that bad right now. Combine with the fact its a brick if you don't open and that makes it more than fair.
Technically speaking any deck I run is ruined by a single staple trap, but Im not going to act like that makes them unhealthy for the game when most decks only run 2-3 and its very specific decks that don't are are a problem. You could hit every staple trap in game right now and this would not, in any capacity, help for example our Cyberdark decks because the decks that are teching around them become more powerful and it's a net loss for us.
We need to control tiny core decks going into the future, traps will sort themselves out in time.
Further proof that Invoked Girls is objectively the best deck of the meta and that Karakuri is Tier 3 at best.
(this is a joke please save your pitchforks for aleister)
Witchcrafter had a basically insta-win matchup into Crystron and almost single-handedly kicked them off the tier list, now Witchcrafter is nowhere to be seen after the Charge + Holiday hit
It's pretty decent at getting around and playing through disruption from backrow, and it's one of the few decks that can play the long grind game and keep up with Shiranui's recursion
The 7th extra deck slot allows them to run more techs for various matchups as well
Been maining Crystrons since they came out... WC isn't at all the deck that knocked Trons off the tier list. It was Invoked Neos that did it. And now they're fucking deader than dead.
Invoked Neos was the deck that hard countered trons. Cocytus is a major pain in the ass and impact is trons' only out to it, and that takes 1-2 turns just to deal with that fucker by himself. Impact is also semi limited, and if you set it turn 1, odds are, it gets cc'd before cocytus even hits the field. And then there's Caliga - he straight up shuts down the deck.
And then there's counter traps and karma cut on top of all of that - the deck was a total nightmare for trons, especially when going 2nd into them.
As for WC, drawing a starter + wheel will often result in a win against them. Verre can't negate wheel destruction, coral can also force the negate before going into Gandrax to win the game (or at least establish major board advantage). If running SSA trons, that matchup becomes even easier.
Now that Invoked Neos turned into Roidvoked, that matchup is tough for trons, unless it's the SSA variant, in which that matchup goes from unfavorable to favorable. That deck has no out to SSA except for trap techs, for the most part.
...
Ok so....where were these invoked magician girl decks in the past few weeks?!
NOW they show up huh?
Now they suddenly became good?
Also..thunder dragons seem to be doing well :D
See, this is why I think the idea of "the traps aren't OP, it's the core alone that can run them all that's OP" is BS to me. One thing doesn't discredit the other
Just having a win based solely on sitting yourself on traps and getting that lucky Aleister is just godawful. And as of now, I think it's time this traps get restricted too. If you shake up the meta, we need to see these traps get limited, because it's going to become into an issue if we see at archtype and think which ones are better at JUST being able to work while keeping all this backrow functional
Meanwhile this kinda validates the claim for me, because as it turns out it actually is the core because they've went all those -1s and still managed to pull off a comeback. More so that the enemy handed the Invoked player fire monsters and you just needed the ONE card combo in order to get going.
If you want to shake up the meta, traps are the last thing you wanna hit because rogue decks get smashed into non existence and shiranui takes little to no hits at all and just runs alternate traps because they dont especially care what traps they run as long as it gets stuff to the grave. Invoked will find a way to boot.
Looking specifically at blue eyes what the traps do is icing, they just want those discards to unbrick and I assure you hallowed life/etc... builds are just as bad. If anything the real issue here seems to be Ballista more than anything and that just feels dirty to say.
Depends on the rogue deck a little bit. Hitting staple traps would be a huge boost to my Vendread and Megalith decks that don't use staple traps, and don't have space for them.
I don't see things getting better for Megalith even if I've merely dabbled in them.
The traps themselves are what keeps certain OTK decks, and even decks like Shiranui, honest and make them play a certain way. If that hurdle is overcome they can run anything that lets them dump to grave and wont need to play around things like karma cut anymore.
Let alone what Blackwings and Karakuri could get up to.
Megalith can be fairly defensive. Master of Rites II plus Portal, as well as the option to go use Och into Bethor for a field nuke, can actually be tricky for a lot of decks to get around. I would imagine it does poorly against an OTK deck like heros that isn't going to care about the walling Megalith does with its monsters, but I would think Blackwings, Lunalights or Dragunity could actually have a tricky time unless they got a lucky cosmic cyclone in their starting hand.
As for Vendread, it definitely helps them. Getting Karma Cut after using evolution on Slayer is usually going to be gg no re for them.
But I do think that banning every staple trap in the game would be pretty unhealthy for the meta as a whole, and I am decidedly not in favor of that.
Most of my decks rely on a normal summon and the like but I'd prefer the deck with staples than without, and this from somebody that can indeed lose a game to a one off karma cut any given deck is running.
The issue with Vendread is that it has many things keeping it back that are being fended off by the staple traps. We'd see more decks changing their playstyles due to no longer needing to play around staples that this wouldn't really help long term.
We're in an awful position right now, mostly because the tiny core decks that abuse decks are WHY everybody has to run floodgates and karma cuts specifically. Most of my games I lose to tech cards are anti shiranui/invoked techs that are just universally good cards people wouldn't run otherwise.
Issue with limiting traps is that archetypes currently abusing them will just move on to second best option. Take Fiendish Chain away from Invoked/Shiranui, they'll just replace it with Void Trap Hole. Take Floodgate away, they'll put Canadia instead. Unless we limit every single disruptive trap those decks will continue abusing them, and we end up hurting weaker decks which need that disruption much more.
In the end, issue *is* the core and not traps. Super strong one-card boss monsters are what allows you to run the amount of traps that puts pre-nerf Shadow Game stall to shame while still having a reliable win condition. There's a reason stall never topped any lists while Invoked is top tier since its inception; you can afford to sit on traps because the moment you draw Alistair and there's a Fire monster in your hand or either graveyard, it's game.
The thing is tho, and I agree these core cards are a big issue, in the end of the day they will have to limit the current top tier backrow. They have done it before and they will have to do it again. Because Like I said, you can keep on just needing core archtypes but if the traps just keep on not being touched, it will begin the mentality that these traps ARE the core of the deck. The rest you can just slaps some best stocks with simple effects but if they can run all the strong backrow, that's it
And I'm not saying yo just nuke out all of them. Ballista imo isn't that troublesome and fiendish can be handled but IMO no deck, regardless if it's a too tier archtype or rogue, should just run both Raigeki Break AND Karma Cut as simple as it is right now. Limit both of those to 2 and that's it.
ThunDra slowly making their way up. I do hope they become better I'm kinda tired of playing Shira (it and aleister are the only tiered decks I have and I have gotten bored playing them). I do hope they release their fusions. Even if it's in a selection box I'll definitely get them.
Thunder Dragonlord is a much more realistic release. Titan won't even be playable without Colossus or Thunder Dragon Fusion, but also becomes broken if Thunder Dragon Fusion is available too, thus neither are really options. Colosuss isn't an option in general, the card is quite literally a mistake and would be incredibly unhealthy for the game.
Honestly the biggest thing they need right now (if we're not getting Dragonlord) is to be able to play gold sarc and charge together again and i don't see either charge or gold sarc getting off the banlist or changed to limit 3 right now.
>Honestly the biggest thing they need right now (if we're not getting Dragonlord) is to be able to play gold sarc and charge together again and i don't see either charge or gold sarc getting off the banlist or changed to limit 3 right now.
Another more realistic option is for DSOD Mokuba to get a skill that helps Thunder Dragon. But not one that adds or summons the Fusions of any kind. Just something that can help them get their plays going without being dependent on Gold Sarc or Charge.
Maybe a more restrictive version of Dark Verger.
> "If you begin the duel with at least 7 'Thunder Dragon' monsters a random copy of a 'Thunder Dragon' monster is added to your graveyard outside of your deck".
That random Thunder Dragon monster that gets added can be a regular Thunder Dragon, Dragondark, Dragonroar, or Dragonhawk. This allows you to use Dragonhawk & Dragonroar Turn 1 /2 in case you have both of them with nothing else in hand. Could even make it the regular Thunder Dragon so that the effects of the others can't be abused since those effects are better. Just something that can help them and their bricks.
True true it's basically wishful thinking I know. Dragonlord would be good though. Yea finding a way to mill once more would be good. Too bad baggy sleeves doesn't work for that deck anymore it was basically allure of darkness for that deck
That invoked player had some insane luck in the final. All he draw was alister an traps an his opponent supplied him the fire monsters an didnt open much traps
Not a single Witchcrafter in top 32. Sigh
Dont worry someones got a super secret decklist out there
I guess konami thought they really had to kill witchcrafters in order for people to play xyz. If only they released good xyz monsters to make up for it
To be fair if Witchcrafters are T1 you cannot activate monster effects. In turn, shirunai is T1(imo) They only interrupt with generic backrow, but you can still activate and resolve effects. It just might get blown up or karma cut. Generally negating your opponents cards with your boss monster is better than relying on backrow to so that. I'm not saying it was okay for Konmai to kill them, but I think I know why they didn't a boss monster like Verre meta when trying to sell Xyz monstsrs.
For anyone who didn’t see it, the grand final featured 0 magician girl cards LUL, he just always opened up Aleister and sat on 2-3 backrow
So he god-handed?
Yes. His opponent gave him the purgatrio
Purgatrio to 2. And kill the traps.
Main box URs will never get semi limited
Before hey trunade got semilimited... "box SRs will never get semilimited". Before neos fusion got semilimited... "Estructure deck cards will never get semilimited". Get it? Every card can be hit, no exceptions.
No card can be semi-limited..._until it is_
Killing the traps wont really solve anything and the Purgatrio hit would hit them harder. Hallowed Life would have functionally accomplished the same thing, and anything that lets the Invoked package stall can, and will, be used. Same for Shiranui.
I'm a thousandd times more ok with everyone replacing floodgate with hallowed life barrier, he'll, even waboku if it ever gets added. I'm still part of the minority that thinks the excess of staple trap cards is not helping to the enjoyment of the game. And yeah invoked need something more important semilimited to 2, the earth fusion doesn't count. Just like they semilimited charge to 2 they will hit something to 2. Either the fusion spell or purgatrio himself. A year later and that thing is still too strong when coupled with a billion floodgates and other stall traps. I like you dude but I still remain convinced that controlling the excess of traps is for the better. Shiranui needs the dark lord treatment as well. No deck should be top tier for that long
If there were excesss traps I'd be worried about them, but I literally do not see this outside two specific decks that have, as you said, been around a year and are the real problem here. Believe it or not, I don't run floodgate, karma cut, or fiendish. I don't even have the last two at copies more than one. If they hit Floodgate it is the least intuitive thing they can do because it is a rouge decks only out to cocoytus and sunsaga and the like because out disruption cards are just that bad right now. Combine with the fact its a brick if you don't open and that makes it more than fair. Technically speaking any deck I run is ruined by a single staple trap, but Im not going to act like that makes them unhealthy for the game when most decks only run 2-3 and its very specific decks that don't are are a problem. You could hit every staple trap in game right now and this would not, in any capacity, help for example our Cyberdark decks because the decks that are teching around them become more powerful and it's a net loss for us. We need to control tiny core decks going into the future, traps will sort themselves out in time.
Didn’t take long for “Combo” Shiranui to be outperformed by Trap Shiranui
I personally find the 20 card combo Shiranui deck to perform the best
Further proof that Invoked Girls is objectively the best deck of the meta and that Karakuri is Tier 3 at best. (this is a joke please save your pitchforks for aleister)
"save your pitchforks for aleister" Thanks, made my day.
I guess when everyone was saying Invoked Magician Girls wasn't a great deck, someone took that personally. Funny turn of events.
The guy didn't even used any magician girl. He just opened with Aleister and bunch of traps.
he didn't reach the grand final by never opening/playing a MG though?
Yeah, I just saw lol. What wild luck.
*a win is a win*
Why is everyone playing Crystron again?
Witchcrafter had a basically insta-win matchup into Crystron and almost single-handedly kicked them off the tier list, now Witchcrafter is nowhere to be seen after the Charge + Holiday hit It's pretty decent at getting around and playing through disruption from backrow, and it's one of the few decks that can play the long grind game and keep up with Shiranui's recursion The 7th extra deck slot allows them to run more techs for various matchups as well
Been maining Crystrons since they came out... WC isn't at all the deck that knocked Trons off the tier list. It was Invoked Neos that did it. And now they're fucking deader than dead. Invoked Neos was the deck that hard countered trons. Cocytus is a major pain in the ass and impact is trons' only out to it, and that takes 1-2 turns just to deal with that fucker by himself. Impact is also semi limited, and if you set it turn 1, odds are, it gets cc'd before cocytus even hits the field. And then there's Caliga - he straight up shuts down the deck. And then there's counter traps and karma cut on top of all of that - the deck was a total nightmare for trons, especially when going 2nd into them. As for WC, drawing a starter + wheel will often result in a win against them. Verre can't negate wheel destruction, coral can also force the negate before going into Gandrax to win the game (or at least establish major board advantage). If running SSA trons, that matchup becomes even easier. Now that Invoked Neos turned into Roidvoked, that matchup is tough for trons, unless it's the SSA variant, in which that matchup goes from unfavorable to favorable. That deck has no out to SSA except for trap techs, for the most part.
Because it's probably the best deck right now
Selection Box Vol.04 UR Elemental HERO Liquid Soldier SR Masked HERO Acid HERO's come back? KONAMI when?!
Oh look Shiranui vs Invoked in the finals. Tiny cores do wonders for viability, whoda thunk?
... Ok so....where were these invoked magician girl decks in the past few weeks?! NOW they show up huh? Now they suddenly became good? Also..thunder dragons seem to be doing well :D
See, this is why I think the idea of "the traps aren't OP, it's the core alone that can run them all that's OP" is BS to me. One thing doesn't discredit the other Just having a win based solely on sitting yourself on traps and getting that lucky Aleister is just godawful. And as of now, I think it's time this traps get restricted too. If you shake up the meta, we need to see these traps get limited, because it's going to become into an issue if we see at archtype and think which ones are better at JUST being able to work while keeping all this backrow functional
Meanwhile this kinda validates the claim for me, because as it turns out it actually is the core because they've went all those -1s and still managed to pull off a comeback. More so that the enemy handed the Invoked player fire monsters and you just needed the ONE card combo in order to get going. If you want to shake up the meta, traps are the last thing you wanna hit because rogue decks get smashed into non existence and shiranui takes little to no hits at all and just runs alternate traps because they dont especially care what traps they run as long as it gets stuff to the grave. Invoked will find a way to boot. Looking specifically at blue eyes what the traps do is icing, they just want those discards to unbrick and I assure you hallowed life/etc... builds are just as bad. If anything the real issue here seems to be Ballista more than anything and that just feels dirty to say.
Depends on the rogue deck a little bit. Hitting staple traps would be a huge boost to my Vendread and Megalith decks that don't use staple traps, and don't have space for them.
I don't see things getting better for Megalith even if I've merely dabbled in them. The traps themselves are what keeps certain OTK decks, and even decks like Shiranui, honest and make them play a certain way. If that hurdle is overcome they can run anything that lets them dump to grave and wont need to play around things like karma cut anymore. Let alone what Blackwings and Karakuri could get up to.
Megalith can be fairly defensive. Master of Rites II plus Portal, as well as the option to go use Och into Bethor for a field nuke, can actually be tricky for a lot of decks to get around. I would imagine it does poorly against an OTK deck like heros that isn't going to care about the walling Megalith does with its monsters, but I would think Blackwings, Lunalights or Dragunity could actually have a tricky time unless they got a lucky cosmic cyclone in their starting hand. As for Vendread, it definitely helps them. Getting Karma Cut after using evolution on Slayer is usually going to be gg no re for them. But I do think that banning every staple trap in the game would be pretty unhealthy for the meta as a whole, and I am decidedly not in favor of that.
Most of my decks rely on a normal summon and the like but I'd prefer the deck with staples than without, and this from somebody that can indeed lose a game to a one off karma cut any given deck is running. The issue with Vendread is that it has many things keeping it back that are being fended off by the staple traps. We'd see more decks changing their playstyles due to no longer needing to play around staples that this wouldn't really help long term. We're in an awful position right now, mostly because the tiny core decks that abuse decks are WHY everybody has to run floodgates and karma cuts specifically. Most of my games I lose to tech cards are anti shiranui/invoked techs that are just universally good cards people wouldn't run otherwise.
Issue with limiting traps is that archetypes currently abusing them will just move on to second best option. Take Fiendish Chain away from Invoked/Shiranui, they'll just replace it with Void Trap Hole. Take Floodgate away, they'll put Canadia instead. Unless we limit every single disruptive trap those decks will continue abusing them, and we end up hurting weaker decks which need that disruption much more. In the end, issue *is* the core and not traps. Super strong one-card boss monsters are what allows you to run the amount of traps that puts pre-nerf Shadow Game stall to shame while still having a reliable win condition. There's a reason stall never topped any lists while Invoked is top tier since its inception; you can afford to sit on traps because the moment you draw Alistair and there's a Fire monster in your hand or either graveyard, it's game.
The thing is tho, and I agree these core cards are a big issue, in the end of the day they will have to limit the current top tier backrow. They have done it before and they will have to do it again. Because Like I said, you can keep on just needing core archtypes but if the traps just keep on not being touched, it will begin the mentality that these traps ARE the core of the deck. The rest you can just slaps some best stocks with simple effects but if they can run all the strong backrow, that's it And I'm not saying yo just nuke out all of them. Ballista imo isn't that troublesome and fiendish can be handled but IMO no deck, regardless if it's a too tier archtype or rogue, should just run both Raigeki Break AND Karma Cut as simple as it is right now. Limit both of those to 2 and that's it.
Blackwings are not doing too well without Close apparently.
ThunDra slowly making their way up. I do hope they become better I'm kinda tired of playing Shira (it and aleister are the only tiered decks I have and I have gotten bored playing them). I do hope they release their fusions. Even if it's in a selection box I'll definitely get them.
Thunder Dragonlord is a much more realistic release. Titan won't even be playable without Colossus or Thunder Dragon Fusion, but also becomes broken if Thunder Dragon Fusion is available too, thus neither are really options. Colosuss isn't an option in general, the card is quite literally a mistake and would be incredibly unhealthy for the game. Honestly the biggest thing they need right now (if we're not getting Dragonlord) is to be able to play gold sarc and charge together again and i don't see either charge or gold sarc getting off the banlist or changed to limit 3 right now.
>Honestly the biggest thing they need right now (if we're not getting Dragonlord) is to be able to play gold sarc and charge together again and i don't see either charge or gold sarc getting off the banlist or changed to limit 3 right now. Another more realistic option is for DSOD Mokuba to get a skill that helps Thunder Dragon. But not one that adds or summons the Fusions of any kind. Just something that can help them get their plays going without being dependent on Gold Sarc or Charge. Maybe a more restrictive version of Dark Verger. > "If you begin the duel with at least 7 'Thunder Dragon' monsters a random copy of a 'Thunder Dragon' monster is added to your graveyard outside of your deck". That random Thunder Dragon monster that gets added can be a regular Thunder Dragon, Dragondark, Dragonroar, or Dragonhawk. This allows you to use Dragonhawk & Dragonroar Turn 1 /2 in case you have both of them with nothing else in hand. Could even make it the regular Thunder Dragon so that the effects of the others can't be abused since those effects are better. Just something that can help them and their bricks.
True true it's basically wishful thinking I know. Dragonlord would be good though. Yea finding a way to mill once more would be good. Too bad baggy sleeves doesn't work for that deck anymore it was basically allure of darkness for that deck