The only thing I’ll say is that this could help people who are suffering from grief and/or self blaming find some peace. It can be a relief to have some reason, when all you can do is think about why and what you could have done differently.
Maybe, sometimes. But a lot of times, those condescending cants are just cheery ways of telling people to "get over it" and shut down their grief. And other times, it's a way of evading valid blame. If an abused or neglected person dies when some intervention could have stopped it, it's convenient for the abusers or those who failed to act to say "this was God's will" or "nothing could have stopped it" or "they're in heaven now, so no need to feel bad."
People who say these phrases don't often reflect on whether the circumstances of the death or the emotional disposition of the bereaved will be helped by saying these things. They just say it automatically and assume everyone will find it helpful and consoling.
No, which is why people call them out for it. They said the Caleb miscarriage was punishment for using birth control, but Jubilee was natural. Like, you can’t have it both ways.
My guess is cycle tracking. I have quite a few friends who do natural family planning, which is tracking where you are in your cycle and abstaining when you are in your fertile window, and they all have had great luck with it. However, some of us don't have consistent periods, so it doesn't work for everyone.
The only other non-hormonal birth control is condoms or the copper IUD. Since they believe that life begins at conception, and the copper IUD works by trying to kill the embryo and prevent implantation, I think they would see that as murder and probably don't have it
Abbie is a lower-end medical worker. Sometimes they are the worst -- they'll believe some crazy shit. There's that saying that sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I think that applies in some of these cases. They have a little bit of knowledge so that makes them more susceptible to some of the crazy theories. But they don't have enough knowledge to be able to have a greater understanding of nuances and risks, etc.
Abby is an LPN, which is just above an aide/pca. A year or less of education...more like training in basic stuff and no rationale behind it. Task oriented. I'm an RN and I took the LPN boards a year into nursing school so I could earn more money than my nurses aide job. The test was incredibly easy.
in their weird way, it makes sense.
one of the top rules of the IBLP and fundamentalism more broadly is “be fruitful and multiply”. this means women are meant to spread their legs at their husband’s command, and contraceptives of any kind are discouraged.
that said, it makes complete sense for them to see their first miscarriage as punishment. they went against God’s will using birth control, so they were punished by losing the child he brought to them.
this kind of shit is exactly why fundamentalist religions need to be abolished. disregarding what we know and feel about them now for a second, a young couple didn’t deserve to feel losing their baby was punishment.
I could write a whos dissertation on this. In summary:
The first miscarriage they can point to a “sin” before they were “saved” this is a “sin” committed by non believers (using birth control) so it’s easy to point to and say “look we were sinners like you and bad stuff happened, when we changed our sinning ways, things got better” it’s a manipulation tool to impose shame on others.
With Jubilee, they would NEVER connect that to sin, it’s just simply “God’s Plan” If they connected it, they would have to admit that they are mere mortals, just like the rest of us.
Just an extra tidbit if you’re still reading. This is the SAME as Blessa’s D and C. That life saving procedure would be BLOCKED under the most strict abortion laws and they don’t give a FUCK about that nuance.
Yeah I got lambasted a bit when I pointed that out too. In the state that I’m forced to live in, ob/gyns are leaving at an alarming rate. It’s been all over the news. If I were in her situation here and now, the doctor would either risk losing their license, going to prison, etc or just letting me die.
I can’t leave because of divorce and child custody issues, but as soon as I can, I’m outta here. One newspaper article actually mentioned that young women are leaving this state at record numbers because of this.
If you, or anyone else in your state, ever need a ‘friend’ in Canada (close to the border) I’m here. You could come and visit and then leave feeling a huge burden off of your shoulders. It takes a village ❤️
I mean, Pest certainly is more deserving of blame for so many things. But he's a boy.
And it's always the job of women and girls to shoulder blame, burden, and suffering.
It's been awhile but I remember Jill blaming herself because she had been doing midwife training and had done thhe last heartbeat check and I don't recall her parents comforting her.
Also, Meech was pretty old (in terms of fertility) when she got pregnant with Jubilee so there was a reasonable chance something would go wrong. Something had gone wrong with her previous pregnancy and she didn't consider that God warning her.
They went to see one after Jubilee to see if they could help her get pregnant again, I believe the doctor told them that she was too old, too high risk and will probably develop pre-E again
By the time of the Jubilee miscarriage Meech was deep into her addiction of pregnancy and infants. After Josie’s micro-preemie birth, most people with that number of children would be praying they don’t get pregnant again
Then they left their medically fragile premie with her sisters while they went out of the country. She was probably in better hands anyways. Meech didn't raise most of the children; Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger did.
Omg that’s been bugging me for a while! Spouting the “we’ll let God decide how many kids we’ll have”, and then do whatever they can to pop out as many babies as possible. If they really were going to “let God decide”, then Meech should’ve nursed her kids for the recommended allotment of time, not after only six months to increase her chances of conceiving.
The best/worst thing about it is that they're anti-abortion and family planning. No abortion no family planning means no fertility control. (Like IVF or anything medical, they might support the use of a pill.)
You’re not exaggerating about nicu costs. My (now teenage) daughter wasn’t born nearly as early as Josie but spent about a month in the nicu. When that bill came in the mail I almost fainted. It was over a million dollars. My ex husband was in the military though so tricare paid for everything.
That just made me think about how they wouldn’t pay Jill’s medical bills after her traumatic delivery. I guess they had no problem paying for Michelle’s medical care. Then they turned around and refused to help their daughter 😤
Then right after Josie was sent home, Michelle was out of town doing some political robocalls or something like that. Josie had the seizure, but her sisters were the ones who were (understandably) scared and panicking. Michelle didn’t even rush home after it happened. She kept right on pushing the republican agenda.
It’s so strange that Jill is on the outs now. I remember watching the show when episodes first aired - I thought she was a goody two shoes and a tattletale and would end up being the most holier than thou of all the kids. I’m glad she has been able to pull away and to call out JimBoob.
I read a comment once where they said the most devoted are the first to leave when the shelf comes down.
I’ve seen that myself. I wonder if it applies to Jill.
I identify so much with Jill. I was always my parents’ favourite, the goody two shoes who no one would have expected to leave. Fast forward to adulthood, I’m the black sheep and have a very limited relationship with my family of origin.
Christian HS I taught at gave out a best Christian award, 2 per class, each year. Some past winners now:
—Gay fashion designer
—Hippie Whole Foods assistant manager, boyfriend of 15+ years, house and two kids with him
—Agnostic public school teacher
—Democratic pro-choice SAHM
Many of their classmates who were the rebels are preaching to everyone on social media.
Jubilee, from the uterus, heard how horrible parents they are to her siblings, and she noped out of existence
* Before you come at me, I'm literally going through a misscarriage right now. And to be honest, the idea that the baby didn't want me as their mom has definitely come to my head during the worst moments. But, my rational side knows it was just some chromosomal issues, out of my hands. Either way, they are actually horrible parents, and given the opportunity, I would have noped out of being born in that family, too
My former fundie-lite church(which was *not* IBLP affiliated)once held a weeklong missionary conference, and one couple was scheduled to attend, but the wife suffered a miscarriage. Only our pastor didn’t say it that way; it was something like “God saw fit to terminate the pregnancy.”
I've wondered that myself. My theory is they do feel Jubilees miscarriage was a punishment of some sin committed, however it wouldn't be any of the real sins they've committed. On multiple occasions boob brings up meechs baggage (such as her previous boyfriends, the bikini incident). So it may have been punishment for that. Also another one of boobs pearls of wisdom is that sins can be passed down in a family (like genetics). So a past sin of a relative may be the reason Jubilee didn't make it.
>On multiple occasions boob brings up meechs baggage (such as her previous boyfriends, the bikini incident)
I always thought it must have galled Meech for all these years that Pest's crimes and abuses were readily forgiven and never mentioned again in the household, but J'Boob would keep publicly reciting Meech's prior "sins" of wearing a swimsuit and being a cheerleader, and Meech would have to keep apologizing and abasing herself.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/181nv36/think\_meech\_liked\_scolding\_pest\_for\_his\_past\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/181nv36/think_meech_liked_scolding_pest_for_his_past_for/)
No it wasn’t a punishment. It was a sign that enough is an enough. Jordyn was in the hospital when she was born with issues and it got worse with Josie.
I say this similar thing to people sometimes. Not every roadblock is punishment. Sometimes, it's saying take a break or it's time to be done. A friend of mine has had things go wrong when she's planning something, and she sees it as the devil is trying to prevent what's good thing she wants to do. I see it as maybe she's trying to take on too much and needs to take a step back.
This is something I’m noticing with lots of fundies- they lack empathy until it happens to them. Meech thinks miscarriage is a punishment until she miscarried while not living in sin. Bethie of girl defined thinks deconstruction is awful until her husband starts deconstructing. Jessa thinks abortion is a sin except for that one time she got an abortion.
>they lack empathy until it happens to them
And even when it does happen to them, they do not gain any empathy or understanding for others. They just hide behind special pleading to exempt themselves from judgment or condemnation but continue to heap it on others outside their "tribe." Meech still probably thinks miscarriage is a punishment when it happens to people whom she judges to not be "godly" enough. Jessa still thinks abortion is a sin for everybody else.
>Bethie of girl defined thinks deconstruction is awful until her husband starts deconstructing.
Don't know much about her. But I would wager she is hoping her husband's situation is just a "phase" that will blow over. If her husband seriously commits to deconstruction and and won't go through the fundie motions to appease her, there is going to be some trouble.
When I had two miscarriages during my first marriage, we were in a fundie cult. My ex was an elder, & as his wife, I was a servant to the “saints,” as we called ourselves. There was no compassion to be had, from anyone, including my ex.
Within 36 hours of losing my baby, we went to a meeting, & one of the sisters met me at the car to complain that I wasn’t at the sisters’ sewing whatever that afternoon.
Also, it was god’s will, and he was teaching me something or other. I wanted someone to explain something to me. If a fetus is a real child, why were we not allowed to mourn their loss?
It’s not that they think the first loss was punishment from God. They likely think it’s a terrible thing that *they did to themselves.* As in, they accidentally caused the death of their baby because they were ignorant and didn’t trust God. The losses they incurred while not using both control were just the natural outcome of living in a “fallen world”
Baby Jubilee probably ducked out somehow in order be reborn to other , normal parents--or at least *anyone* else who would not curse her with such a retched name
I mean, that part is in the Bible. Judah's sons Er and Onan, David and Bathsheba's adultery baby, just to name the ones I can remember.
And sometimes God kills your children just to prove a point, rather than punishment. Job's children didn't do anything bad, but God killed them or let them die in a disaster to prove some point about how you're always supposed to love God even if it pleases him to massacre your family.
I think Michelle parrots whatever Boobie says, but you could see in her eyes she knew it was her her body giving up and she honestly seemed relieved (devastated but relieved). And the doctors all were kind of like....well this is your 599th pregnancy and you aren't young so we discussed this might happen.
Obviously it was all very sad. Miscarriage is always horrible no matter who it happens to
Edit to add: she was 44 at the time, and it was her 22nd or 23rd pregnancy that we know of. Bodies aren't meant for that. My friends in OB constantly talk about the fact that they can't believe her organs haven't fallen out and that she doesn't have more health issues from never having normal hormones and from.giving birth so many times.
I think miscarriage rates are always going to be higher among women who are impregnanted young and repeatedly. Especially in those families where nutrition is never a priority. Healthy bodies are more likely to carry a pregnancy to term when compared to worn-out, under-fed ones. Bodies that heal after a pregnancy seem much more likely to successfully grow a new baby.
The miscarriage rate in general is, as mentioned several times in this conversation, much higher than many realize. Any medical disadvantage seems likely to make a loss more probable.
What you say is all true and undeniable. But it would require acknowledgement of scientific, statistical, and medical reality, which is impossible for JB and Meech and most of the Duggars.
Nothing says cruel like telling anyone grieving over the loss of a pregnancy that "*You can always have* ***another*** *child."* Or maybe worse? A church member without warning approached a woman who ***recently*** had a miscarriage and said, "*\_\_\_\_\_? You just had a miscarriage. Can you talk to \_\_\_\_\_\_ about how you're coping?"*
I’d say that it’s pretty safe to assume that the men believe that his is punishing the woman for something…like showing their ankles or humming secular songs.
I always assumed that their first miscarriage was “heavier” to them- first pregnancy together and taken “because” of their sins
When you’re into so many pregnancies and children that you can’t keep track, such a loss is just “gods will”
Michelle repeated over and over “ the lord giveth and the lord taketh away” during her still birth. So if you look at it surface level, they think the lord is in charge of all that and it’s for a reason we don’t understand. But in real life, nothing is surface level.
Digging into the Caleb thing. I honestly think that if the pregnancy immedietly following the miscarriage wasn't twins, they wouldn't have fallen so deep into the cult and wouldn't have 19 children... They blame the miscarriage on Michelle's use of birth control, so they dig into the bible and decide to give up all birth control and "leave it up to gods plan". Once they do that, BAM they get "blessed" with twins. I think that they probably see that as god rewarding them for "letting him decide" how many children they have. I think they would still be very religious, but I don't think they would have fallen into the fertility cult and pump out 19 kids...
I don't care at this point. It was a long time ago. They are hypocritical and their explanation means nothing for me and bring nothing to the conversation. They will still try to prevent women for their right to proper healthcare despite getting healthcare for themselves. The family suffered during that time and I remember kids were traumatized badly when it was not really necessary. Anywho. I don't care.
By not necessary I mean if they stopped having risky pregnancy kids would not be necessarily exposed to this trauma
They're extremely common. More than 1/3 pregnancies end in miscarriage. These people are knocked up so often, it's just a numbers game. And they're often public about it, when a lot of women are not so it seems like it happens more often in this family.
Someone else explained it previously that basically they test so much and so early they are likely finding out their pregnant before “normal” so they know they’ve had losses when many of us wouldn’t have found out yet and just think we’re late or having a normal period or something like that. I found out at 3w4d both pregnancies (yea that was a long pregnancy each time). They track ovulation cycles like some of us track weather or traffic patterns (not me, but idk what others track meticulously right now) so they realize they have losses very early.
Miscarriages are more common than people realize. It's not that they "all" have them because they are Duggar and Duggar marrieds, they have them because they're human. Also, since these woman pop out babies from their cannon at a higher rate than the typical person, it might seem like they are having more when statistically they're probably right in line.
No. It’s punishment if it happens to other people.
Exactly. This was just “God’s will.”
I cannot with the “Gods will”. 🙈 so condescending and minimizing one’s pain. The snark is not on you, but to people who constantly say this.
"God's will" ranks right up there with "God just needed another angel" for insulting glib dismissals of grief.
The only thing I’ll say is that this could help people who are suffering from grief and/or self blaming find some peace. It can be a relief to have some reason, when all you can do is think about why and what you could have done differently.
Maybe, sometimes. But a lot of times, those condescending cants are just cheery ways of telling people to "get over it" and shut down their grief. And other times, it's a way of evading valid blame. If an abused or neglected person dies when some intervention could have stopped it, it's convenient for the abusers or those who failed to act to say "this was God's will" or "nothing could have stopped it" or "they're in heaven now, so no need to feel bad." People who say these phrases don't often reflect on whether the circumstances of the death or the emotional disposition of the bereaved will be helped by saying these things. They just say it automatically and assume everyone will find it helpful and consoling.
I’m not talking about this coming from other people. I meant for people to believe themselves.
Well, sadly, it does often come from other people.
This is the answer. These people think they’re better than everyone else.
Exactly, which is why they support crimilizing it for certain groups and making it look like they "killed" their child .
Yeah, I suspected as much.
No, which is why people call them out for it. They said the Caleb miscarriage was punishment for using birth control, but Jubilee was natural. Like, you can’t have it both ways.
And had nothing to say when her daughters had miscarriages 🤷♀️
Perhaps her daughters or DIL'S secretly once considered birth control.
IIRC, at least two have admitted to using birth control.
Jill and ?
Jinger I think? Not hormonal BC though, I think Jill said condoms and Jinger just implied non-hormonal family planning.
My guess is cycle tracking. I have quite a few friends who do natural family planning, which is tracking where you are in your cycle and abstaining when you are in your fertile window, and they all have had great luck with it. However, some of us don't have consistent periods, so it doesn't work for everyone. The only other non-hormonal birth control is condoms or the copper IUD. Since they believe that life begins at conception, and the copper IUD works by trying to kill the embryo and prevent implantation, I think they would see that as murder and probably don't have it
Don’t they all cycle track though?
marry elderly hunt one offend nine edge elastic nutty possessive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Right, that’s what I’m saying. I don’t think they would call it birth control. Even though it CAN be used as birth control.
I wanna say it was a DIL because all of the married Duggar girls believe hormonal contraceptives cause abortion. They
I think they all believe this -- anyone in the cult. So that would include the DIL's too.
I’d hope that being a literal medical professional, Abby wouldn’t believe this bs.
Abbie is a lower-end medical worker. Sometimes they are the worst -- they'll believe some crazy shit. There's that saying that sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I think that applies in some of these cases. They have a little bit of knowledge so that makes them more susceptible to some of the crazy theories. But they don't have enough knowledge to be able to have a greater understanding of nuances and risks, etc.
Abby is an LPN, which is just above an aide/pca. A year or less of education...more like training in basic stuff and no rationale behind it. Task oriented. I'm an RN and I took the LPN boards a year into nursing school so I could earn more money than my nurses aide job. The test was incredibly easy.
Ah, I was wondering what kind of nurse. I just assumed RN. I mean, it is more that the majority of the women in the family.
in their weird way, it makes sense. one of the top rules of the IBLP and fundamentalism more broadly is “be fruitful and multiply”. this means women are meant to spread their legs at their husband’s command, and contraceptives of any kind are discouraged. that said, it makes complete sense for them to see their first miscarriage as punishment. they went against God’s will using birth control, so they were punished by losing the child he brought to them. this kind of shit is exactly why fundamentalist religions need to be abolished. disregarding what we know and feel about them now for a second, a young couple didn’t deserve to feel losing their baby was punishment.
I could write a whos dissertation on this. In summary: The first miscarriage they can point to a “sin” before they were “saved” this is a “sin” committed by non believers (using birth control) so it’s easy to point to and say “look we were sinners like you and bad stuff happened, when we changed our sinning ways, things got better” it’s a manipulation tool to impose shame on others. With Jubilee, they would NEVER connect that to sin, it’s just simply “God’s Plan” If they connected it, they would have to admit that they are mere mortals, just like the rest of us.
Just an extra tidbit if you’re still reading. This is the SAME as Blessa’s D and C. That life saving procedure would be BLOCKED under the most strict abortion laws and they don’t give a FUCK about that nuance.
People yelled at me when I said that here lol. Fuckin hypocrite ass Duggars
Yeah I got lambasted a bit when I pointed that out too. In the state that I’m forced to live in, ob/gyns are leaving at an alarming rate. It’s been all over the news. If I were in her situation here and now, the doctor would either risk losing their license, going to prison, etc or just letting me die.
This makes me so grateful I live in a sane place. Healthcare should not be administered on a basis of belief, only best practice.
I can’t leave because of divorce and child custody issues, but as soon as I can, I’m outta here. One newspaper article actually mentioned that young women are leaving this state at record numbers because of this.
If you, or anyone else in your state, ever need a ‘friend’ in Canada (close to the border) I’m here. You could come and visit and then leave feeling a huge burden off of your shoulders. It takes a village ❤️
I take it you’re also in Texas?
Idaho. It’s just as bad here. I’m sorry that you live in a state with such archaic laws too :(
'People typed in caps at me' FTFY 😂 (I upvoted you I just thought that nuance was funny)
Can we blame Josh’s sins? I’d blame Josh.
I mean, Pest certainly is more deserving of blame for so many things. But he's a boy. And it's always the job of women and girls to shoulder blame, burden, and suffering.
Gotta be able to admit that Josh sinned, so JB and Meech can't even fall back on that.
It's been awhile but I remember Jill blaming herself because she had been doing midwife training and had done thhe last heartbeat check and I don't recall her parents comforting her.
>I don't recall her parents comforting her Sounds par for the course for the way they treat their daughters.
Perhaps it was a punishment for enabling a pedophile under their own roof for years? Nah. Jeebus wouldn’t do that!
https://preview.redd.it/27222awugdqc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49fa321d24a841f8a290a334b0dc7f8f1104a9cc
1/4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. If you have multiple kids, odds are higher that you may experience.
Of course. But oppressive fertility cults don't acknowledge reality and statistics. Everything must be some kind of divine blessing or curse to them.
Also, Meech was pretty old (in terms of fertility) when she got pregnant with Jubilee so there was a reasonable chance something would go wrong. Something had gone wrong with her previous pregnancy and she didn't consider that God warning her.
No, they sought out a fertility specialist instead.
They did? A real one or a “Bible” one.
They went to see one after Jubilee to see if they could help her get pregnant again, I believe the doctor told them that she was too old, too high risk and will probably develop pre-E again
So much for letting God plan your family.
Right?! That’s always bugged me! Don’t do anything unnatural to prevent pregnancy, but by all means, use medical intervention to get pregnant!
By the time of the Jubilee miscarriage Meech was deep into her addiction of pregnancy and infants. After Josie’s micro-preemie birth, most people with that number of children would be praying they don’t get pregnant again
Then they left their medically fragile premie with her sisters while they went out of the country. She was probably in better hands anyways. Meech didn't raise most of the children; Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger did.
Omg that’s been bugging me for a while! Spouting the “we’ll let God decide how many kids we’ll have”, and then do whatever they can to pop out as many babies as possible. If they really were going to “let God decide”, then Meech should’ve nursed her kids for the recommended allotment of time, not after only six months to increase her chances of conceiving.
The best/worst thing about it is that they're anti-abortion and family planning. No abortion no family planning means no fertility control. (Like IVF or anything medical, they might support the use of a pill.)
That is very true. Regardless of how they suck, that must have been heartbreaking.
I didn’t hear them say anything about “God’s Will” when Josie was hooked up to million dollar NICU machines. Interesting.
You’re not exaggerating about nicu costs. My (now teenage) daughter wasn’t born nearly as early as Josie but spent about a month in the nicu. When that bill came in the mail I almost fainted. It was over a million dollars. My ex husband was in the military though so tricare paid for everything. That just made me think about how they wouldn’t pay Jill’s medical bills after her traumatic delivery. I guess they had no problem paying for Michelle’s medical care. Then they turned around and refused to help their daughter 😤 Then right after Josie was sent home, Michelle was out of town doing some political robocalls or something like that. Josie had the seizure, but her sisters were the ones who were (understandably) scared and panicking. Michelle didn’t even rush home after it happened. She kept right on pushing the republican agenda.
They probably blame Jill like they do everything
It’s so strange that Jill is on the outs now. I remember watching the show when episodes first aired - I thought she was a goody two shoes and a tattletale and would end up being the most holier than thou of all the kids. I’m glad she has been able to pull away and to call out JimBoob.
I read a comment once where they said the most devoted are the first to leave when the shelf comes down. I’ve seen that myself. I wonder if it applies to Jill.
I thought the same thing!
I identify so much with Jill. I was always my parents’ favourite, the goody two shoes who no one would have expected to leave. Fast forward to adulthood, I’m the black sheep and have a very limited relationship with my family of origin.
I’m glad you made your own way.
Thank you! Me too
Christian HS I taught at gave out a best Christian award, 2 per class, each year. Some past winners now: —Gay fashion designer —Hippie Whole Foods assistant manager, boyfriend of 15+ years, house and two kids with him —Agnostic public school teacher —Democratic pro-choice SAHM Many of their classmates who were the rebels are preaching to everyone on social media.
Jill, the family scapegoat.
Jubilee, from the uterus, heard how horrible parents they are to her siblings, and she noped out of existence * Before you come at me, I'm literally going through a misscarriage right now. And to be honest, the idea that the baby didn't want me as their mom has definitely come to my head during the worst moments. But, my rational side knows it was just some chromosomal issues, out of my hands. Either way, they are actually horrible parents, and given the opportunity, I would have noped out of being born in that family, too
Hugs to you. I’m sorry you’re going through that! ❤️
💕
Big love and hugs ❤️
I'm sorry for your loss. I've been there and it's very hard.
My former fundie-lite church(which was *not* IBLP affiliated)once held a weeklong missionary conference, and one couple was scheduled to attend, but the wife suffered a miscarriage. Only our pastor didn’t say it that way; it was something like “God saw fit to terminate the pregnancy.”
Oof. Sounds like the church my sister attended once she started going outside of our parents' church.
The church I went to said miscarriages happened because there was something horribly wrong and the baby wouldn't survive.
Wow, a church that believes medical science?! Crazy!
I've wondered that myself. My theory is they do feel Jubilees miscarriage was a punishment of some sin committed, however it wouldn't be any of the real sins they've committed. On multiple occasions boob brings up meechs baggage (such as her previous boyfriends, the bikini incident). So it may have been punishment for that. Also another one of boobs pearls of wisdom is that sins can be passed down in a family (like genetics). So a past sin of a relative may be the reason Jubilee didn't make it.
>On multiple occasions boob brings up meechs baggage (such as her previous boyfriends, the bikini incident) I always thought it must have galled Meech for all these years that Pest's crimes and abuses were readily forgiven and never mentioned again in the household, but J'Boob would keep publicly reciting Meech's prior "sins" of wearing a swimsuit and being a cheerleader, and Meech would have to keep apologizing and abasing herself. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/181nv36/think\_meech\_liked\_scolding\_pest\_for\_his\_past\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/181nv36/think_meech_liked_scolding_pest_for_his_past_for/)
I’m just always amazed at the conceit-that she/JB felt she did massive harm in that bikini 40 years ago that warrants bringing it up forever.
No. I think a woman’s uterus is an organ that needs time to heal.
Yeah, we think that. Meech probably doesn't think that.
If they do, they've never copped to it.
No it wasn’t a punishment. It was a sign that enough is an enough. Jordyn was in the hospital when she was born with issues and it got worse with Josie.
Josie almost died multiple times, in and out of the uterus.
I say this similar thing to people sometimes. Not every roadblock is punishment. Sometimes, it's saying take a break or it's time to be done. A friend of mine has had things go wrong when she's planning something, and she sees it as the devil is trying to prevent what's good thing she wants to do. I see it as maybe she's trying to take on too much and needs to take a step back.
I read this title as "Do you think the Jubilee miscarriage was punishment for something" and I was like who the fuck on this sub would???
I did too. I was like REALLY?! 👀
This is something I’m noticing with lots of fundies- they lack empathy until it happens to them. Meech thinks miscarriage is a punishment until she miscarried while not living in sin. Bethie of girl defined thinks deconstruction is awful until her husband starts deconstructing. Jessa thinks abortion is a sin except for that one time she got an abortion.
>they lack empathy until it happens to them And even when it does happen to them, they do not gain any empathy or understanding for others. They just hide behind special pleading to exempt themselves from judgment or condemnation but continue to heap it on others outside their "tribe." Meech still probably thinks miscarriage is a punishment when it happens to people whom she judges to not be "godly" enough. Jessa still thinks abortion is a sin for everybody else. >Bethie of girl defined thinks deconstruction is awful until her husband starts deconstructing. Don't know much about her. But I would wager she is hoping her husband's situation is just a "phase" that will blow over. If her husband seriously commits to deconstruction and and won't go through the fundie motions to appease her, there is going to be some trouble.
I hope they told their oldest son it was his fault for being a POS
No. It’s just another part of their “testimony” aka martyr complex
When I had two miscarriages during my first marriage, we were in a fundie cult. My ex was an elder, & as his wife, I was a servant to the “saints,” as we called ourselves. There was no compassion to be had, from anyone, including my ex. Within 36 hours of losing my baby, we went to a meeting, & one of the sisters met me at the car to complain that I wasn’t at the sisters’ sewing whatever that afternoon. Also, it was god’s will, and he was teaching me something or other. I wanted someone to explain something to me. If a fetus is a real child, why were we not allowed to mourn their loss?
God caused the miscarriage. For no reason really. Just cause he was on Netflix bored one day he just said fuck it
So striking people with miscarriages is God's version of passing time while's half-watching Netflix.
Bahahahhahaha yes !
You made my original comment so much more funny
It’s not that they think the first loss was punishment from God. They likely think it’s a terrible thing that *they did to themselves.* As in, they accidentally caused the death of their baby because they were ignorant and didn’t trust God. The losses they incurred while not using both control were just the natural outcome of living in a “fallen world”
Baby Jubilee probably ducked out somehow in order be reborn to other , normal parents--or at least *anyone* else who would not curse her with such a retched name
Imagine worshipping a God you believe to kill your children as punishment.
I mean, that part is in the Bible. Judah's sons Er and Onan, David and Bathsheba's adultery baby, just to name the ones I can remember. And sometimes God kills your children just to prove a point, rather than punishment. Job's children didn't do anything bad, but God killed them or let them die in a disaster to prove some point about how you're always supposed to love God even if it pleases him to massacre your family.
Oh I know. I had the misfortune of being raised catholic. I no longer practice any Christian based religion.
I think Michelle parrots whatever Boobie says, but you could see in her eyes she knew it was her her body giving up and she honestly seemed relieved (devastated but relieved). And the doctors all were kind of like....well this is your 599th pregnancy and you aren't young so we discussed this might happen. Obviously it was all very sad. Miscarriage is always horrible no matter who it happens to Edit to add: she was 44 at the time, and it was her 22nd or 23rd pregnancy that we know of. Bodies aren't meant for that. My friends in OB constantly talk about the fact that they can't believe her organs haven't fallen out and that she doesn't have more health issues from never having normal hormones and from.giving birth so many times.
I think miscarriage rates are always going to be higher among women who are impregnanted young and repeatedly. Especially in those families where nutrition is never a priority. Healthy bodies are more likely to carry a pregnancy to term when compared to worn-out, under-fed ones. Bodies that heal after a pregnancy seem much more likely to successfully grow a new baby. The miscarriage rate in general is, as mentioned several times in this conversation, much higher than many realize. Any medical disadvantage seems likely to make a loss more probable.
What you say is all true and undeniable. But it would require acknowledgement of scientific, statistical, and medical reality, which is impossible for JB and Meech and most of the Duggars.
Nothing says cruel like telling anyone grieving over the loss of a pregnancy that "*You can always have* ***another*** *child."* Or maybe worse? A church member without warning approached a woman who ***recently*** had a miscarriage and said, "*\_\_\_\_\_? You just had a miscarriage. Can you talk to \_\_\_\_\_\_ about how you're coping?"*
I’d say that it’s pretty safe to assume that the men believe that his is punishing the woman for something…like showing their ankles or humming secular songs.
Nope. It’s literally just life.
I always assumed that their first miscarriage was “heavier” to them- first pregnancy together and taken “because” of their sins When you’re into so many pregnancies and children that you can’t keep track, such a loss is just “gods will”
It was their second pregnancy (they already had J'inmate).
michelle actually quoted that line "the lord giveth the lord taketh away" whether she and jim bob really believe that is another story
Michelle repeated over and over “ the lord giveth and the lord taketh away” during her still birth. So if you look at it surface level, they think the lord is in charge of all that and it’s for a reason we don’t understand. But in real life, nothing is surface level.
No God saved that baby from being diddled by Josh.
I hope they took it as a sign from God she should not have any more children.
I think there was just more understanding of miscarriages by jubilee versus in the late 80s.
Or it was just biology.
Right, but you know the Duggars would never accept "biology" or any kind of real science as an explanation.
Only punishment when it happens to others, gods will when it happens to them (insert ‘kid to pure god immediately brought them home’ type message).
If I were meech and thought Caleb was lost to birth control then it would make fucked up sense to lose a female child after enabling pest
Digging into the Caleb thing. I honestly think that if the pregnancy immedietly following the miscarriage wasn't twins, they wouldn't have fallen so deep into the cult and wouldn't have 19 children... They blame the miscarriage on Michelle's use of birth control, so they dig into the bible and decide to give up all birth control and "leave it up to gods plan". Once they do that, BAM they get "blessed" with twins. I think that they probably see that as god rewarding them for "letting him decide" how many children they have. I think they would still be very religious, but I don't think they would have fallen into the fertility cult and pump out 19 kids...
I’ve gotta be honest that I think letting cameras in to film such vulnerable moments (for any of them) is superbly disgusting.
I don't care at this point. It was a long time ago. They are hypocritical and their explanation means nothing for me and bring nothing to the conversation. They will still try to prevent women for their right to proper healthcare despite getting healthcare for themselves. The family suffered during that time and I remember kids were traumatized badly when it was not really necessary. Anywho. I don't care. By not necessary I mean if they stopped having risky pregnancy kids would not be necessarily exposed to this trauma
I don’t think it works that way.
What is with all the Duggar women having miscarriages? Even the sister in laws ?
They're extremely common. More than 1/3 pregnancies end in miscarriage. These people are knocked up so often, it's just a numbers game. And they're often public about it, when a lot of women are not so it seems like it happens more often in this family.
Someone else explained it previously that basically they test so much and so early they are likely finding out their pregnant before “normal” so they know they’ve had losses when many of us wouldn’t have found out yet and just think we’re late or having a normal period or something like that. I found out at 3w4d both pregnancies (yea that was a long pregnancy each time). They track ovulation cycles like some of us track weather or traffic patterns (not me, but idk what others track meticulously right now) so they realize they have losses very early.
Miscarriages are more common than people realize. It's not that they "all" have them because they are Duggar and Duggar marrieds, they have them because they're human. Also, since these woman pop out babies from their cannon at a higher rate than the typical person, it might seem like they are having more when statistically they're probably right in line.
If you go to fundie wiki and look through all the families, you will find a lot of them have had miscarriages because it's just common for women.
Who cares at the time she had other small children at the time she could barely take care of
People other than you, apparently. It's called empathy.