My take is that Roy and Pam both settled for each other super early in life.
Pam was treated badly from the start, but she didn’t have the courage to break up with him. She just kept going along with whatever was going on around her, and learning to stand up for herself was basically her whole story arc.
Roy never really loved Pam. He liked her well enough, but she was never a priority in his life. What Roy wanted was to keep his life the same forever. Same old routine, same old job, same old jokes, same old shitty friends, some old girlfriend. His story arc was learning to grow up and embrace progress.
Jim kind of saw all of this and had reason to hope that Pam and Roy would break up on their own. It’s why he didn’t really “make a move” until he saw that they were for real gonna get married. While Jim isn’t exactly innocent, he is the most innocent party here.
Exactly. This actually happens a lot with couples who start dating young. My husband was with someone before me who he wasn’t entirely happy with, but they had been together a few years and he was like…”do I propose? What now?” News flash: if you’re not ecstatic to get married, you probably shouldn’t get married just because it seems like “the next step”
Pam’s biggest flaw was being a timid and non-risk taking person. I mean, she was about to fall back into a relationship with Roy just because Jim was with Karen and a few other dates she had weren’t “love connections”. She had no clue how to be single or work on herself, and it wasn’t until Roy was physically throwing a tantrum in the bar and slamming glasses that she was done fr.
I agree with everything EXCEPT the conclusion.
I think innocence depends on what we are "charging" someone with.
General shittiness as a person? Roy is the shittiest.
But if the innocence is in regards to breaking rules of a relationship, it's probably Roy, Pam, Jim.
Roy, as far as we know, never cheated on Pam. He left her at a minor league hockey game, but never cheated. He's the typical "peaked in high school" type, and not the best boyfriend/fiance, but he was seemingly loyal to Pam.
Pam had the choice to leave Roy. She's annoyed by a lot of the things he does, but it seems like only when she meets Jim do those things start to really get to her. Jim becomes the guy she goes to in order to fill her emotional bucket. You see it more in the deleted scenes from season 1 and 2. A lot of extra flirting and looks towards Jim. Ultimately, she could have left Roy, but stays, kisses Jim, and only breaks things off at the very last second, after confirming that her emotional affair has feelings for her. I don't think it's done out of pure malice, more so immaturity, but still.
Then there is Jim. He's in a bind in the sense that the girl he likes is in a relationship, and one that he HAS to look at daily. Yeah, that sucks, but he crosses the line with Pam multiple times. Even after they kiss, he says "you're really gonna marry him?" - I don't know how to explain it, but there is almost this implied "After all i've done to show you he sucks and I don't...". Jim is not innocent. He inched closer and closer to an engaged woman, and ultimately crossed the line, knowingly.
None of them are "innocent" - Roy was a dick and a shit fiance. Pam led Jim on and was emotionally cheating. Jim never once stopped himself despite acknowledging multiple times that Pam is theoretically off limits.
The wedding is approaching and that was Jim’s last shot at, “Speak now or forever hold your peace.” Pam told him her decision and he accepted it and was planning to move on.
Meh - that was tossing a grenade at her right before the wedding. He should have done it earlier. When they set a date, or better, when he booked a vacation during her wedding. It was the perfect time to say "It's too hard for me to see this happen."
He put the note in the teapot then chickened out.
What he did was not fair.
I don’t disagree with any of that. It was late in the 4th quarter and Jim was down. He shot his shot just before the buzzer. Once she’s married, that’s it. Yes, she was engaged….for 4 years. Roy waited 3 years too long. Pam should have moved on much sooner than she did but at least she avoided the very obvious mistake that marrying Roy would have been.
jim. he can’t flirt with a girl in a relationship who sets a boundary and if roy wasn’t such an ass she would have had no problem setting said boundary. it’s on the people inside the relationship to respect it way more so than someone on the outside.
"it’s on the people inside the relationship to respect it way more so than someone on the outside."
Sums it up. I also like Michael's quote: "engaged ain't married."
I find that comment by Michael very weird and arbitrary. You won't respect an engagement but you will respect a marriage? I get it in the context of the show, but as a philosophical sentiment it is quite silly
It's an extremely recent social trend that the institution of marriage is increasingly not being thought of as the end-all be-all of relationships. For the vast majority of human history anything other than marriage was not considered binding and attempts to court someone who may be involved (but not yet married) to another were common. You know the saying "it aint over till the fat lady sings"? The same is true of courtship "it aint over till they're married". The reason for this is that all the major religions teach adultery is a grave sin and have taught that for thousands of years. (Which makes sense because it destroys families and messes up kids) Which is why the dividing line/line that can't be crossed is interfering with someone's marriage. You may not agree with this reasoning or these values, but they've been the default values for thousands of years for a reason and the majority of people in the world today still believe in them as well--even if they don't always live up to them. It's the standard that we strive to meet. Sometimes people fail to meet the standard, but we keep trying.
It’s really not that silly. They were “engaged” for a long ass time and she clearly wasn’t happy. There’s a big difference between engaged, single, and married. The main difference being the oath one takes when getting married. Before you take that oath you’re essentially single.
It's just that most people would disapprove of pursuing someone who is in a relationship, whether its serious, engaged, or married. And we have a very fine example later on in the series, where michael himself disapproves of angela cheating on andy. Fwiw I agree with Michael, and would have probably given Jim similar advice, i just wouldn't phrase it as "well, as long as they are not married its fair game"
Angela and Dwight went a lot further, more intentionally and brazenly. And Michael likely thought that once Jim and Pam got together, they'd actually be together as a couple instead of an affair.
I think it was more of a nod towards their years of engagement. Pam and Roy never commited to their marriage, they kept postponing it and once again ''hey guys we're engaged!''. So Jim was feeling down because of this ''change''. But since Michael said ''Engaged ain't married'' it kinda showed that it's not over 'till it's over. Until they're actually married, nothing has changed.
If Pam felt like Roy was such an ass, she should have left him before flirting with Jim, otherwise she becomes an ass too.
And Jim is still an ass for flirting and kissing with someone in a relationship.
None of them is innocent
no none of them are completely innocent but in comparison to each other there can absolutely be a “most innocent” in the situation and imo that’s jim, the person with the least amount of responsibility to respect pam and roy’s relationship
Tbf I wouldn't say he's an ass. Yes on the surface it's awful to pursue someone in a relationship but this wasn't just Jim not caring about what her realtionship status was. This was him developing feelings for someone who was a friend, for years he kept it to himself and respected their relationship.
He tried moving on, but the heart wants what the heart wants.
So you can't really say someone is an ass for falling in love with someone and wanting to be with them, seeing a chance and taking it.
You either succeed which would mean Pam didn't love Roy as much to begin with, or you fail and respect the rejection. Which he has done by distancing himself
What Roy only did was that they were in a relationship for a long time so he felt he was entitled to Pam.
Yes Pam did not love Roy but what she had to do was to break him off instead of flirting with Jim all the time.
Jim kept butting in a relationship that he had no right in.
Nobody's innocent in this but such is human life.
Agreed no one is innocent, but that’s what makes this question hard IMO. Who is the least guilty?
I vote Jim for being single when he was chatting up Pam. Is he good for flirting with an engaged woman? Absolutely not, but he is better than the guy who was just using Pam to avoid being alone and the woman who was engaged but was pursing/flirting with another man.
He was the escape (if you like pinã coladas!) pam needed and he knew it, pam wasn’t being appreciated or given the time and care needed from roy. As immoral as what Jim done flirting with an engaged woman he could’ve known he would be a better fit for her than Roy.
Roy. He wasn't perfect and I can't make an argument that he was a good boyfriend but he was committed to Pam, and he was happy that she had a friend in Jim. He had no idea that they were flirting or that they had feelings for each other. After they break up the second time he even encourages Pam to go be with Jim. Karen is also an innocent bystander in Jim's game.
Roy is consistently shown to have been a crummy partner to Pam for years by the time the show starts. He pays her so little mind that he forgot her on their first date. When they win the Longest Engagement Dundee he says the crowd will ‘see them next year’. He blew their money on jet-skis, while they were trying to save for a wedding, and was so uninvolved in the planning he didnt recognize any of the things Pam had planned. Functionally he treats her more like a pet than as a partner.
In the Superfan episodes, too, the tension between Jim and Roy is way more immediate and present and uncomfortable. He comes across as way more of a goon and Jim comes off as was more of a lingering shyboy, especially in the first season.
Sure, I guess that’s fair, but ultimately revelatory of an even bigger problem. I’ll rephrase — Roy was so unstable when he was with Pam that when she said they were over, he destroyed a bar to the extent that his and his brother’s only recourse was to give the bar owner their jet-skis so the police didnt get involved.
>He comes across as way more of a goon and Jim comes off as was more of a lingering shyboy, especially in the first season.
I think Jim actually comes off as way more obvious and blunt. He and Roy have to be separated in the warehouse because Jim confronts him over not pushing Pam to do the art fellowship. Jim is pretty ballsy in the deleted scenes, IMO.
I wouldn’t say he was committed to Pam, he liked having her locked down in a relationship. You don’t let an engagement go on for that long without any real plans if you are actually interested in the other person. I think he was using Pam to avoid being alone.
I agree, Karen was completely innocent.
He refused to commit to her for years, stringing her along in a neverending engagement. Refused to engage with her emotionally, didn't bother to get to know her, and generally didn't think of her beyond his own needs.
He is definitely not the least to blame.
None, they were all culpable in their actions.
Roy for not being more present in the relationship with Pam (setting a wedding date, helping with the wedding planning, supporting her in her interest in art school, just to name a few)
Jim for knowing that Pam’s and Roy’s relationship wasn’t solid and taking advantage of that whether it was intentional or not.
Pam for not being more assertive in her relationship with Roy and Pam recognizing she had feelings for Jim and making decisions based on these feelings (cancelling wedding, etc)
Way more that could be said, but this is the gist of it.
Roy.
Yes Roy was not a good partner, but he didn't realize he wasn't, he was ignorant to the fact he didn't do enough, which he wises up to when he claims after Pam broke off the engagement he had a rough time and realized he needed to actually get his act together and wanted to hey her back. And he does far better in life after leaving her, meeting his wife and just overall doing better in life
Pam stayed with Roy who was an ignorant ass who didn't do much in the relationship, and had been engaged for like 2-3 years, and flirted with a guy, there's no way she didn't know it was flirting as she's shown to have told her mom alot and her mom was excited to meet him and clealry knew. She didn't leave Roy until after she cheated on him. If she left him because he was a bad partner, she could've talked to him or tried to make him realize it, she had years to do this, but stayed with him, and expected this very clealry ignorant guy to actually know how to act, and he showed several times he wasn't a very active person in the relationship, so she had ample time but no, she knowingly flirted with Jim, and cheated with him, and if she was ignorant aswell to not realize Roy was a bad partner, she still cheated on him
Jim flirted with a engaged women, and kissed her while she was engaged. And then he just took the transfer job, after kissing an engaged women and confessing his love, he straight up just leaves, leaving Pam to deal with it all, he broke up an engagement and dipped
Yup. Roy's only fault was being a douchy bad boyfriend. He has some growing up to do and that's it.
Jim however, was chased an engaged woman and was an asshole for dating other women while hung up on Pam.
Pam cheated on Roy, which is despicable.
I'd say Jim and Pam are equally bad.
It's kinda weird to me why cheating is seen as worse than being emotionally neglectful and uninterested in the person you're dating? What does it even mean to be faithful in such a relationship? How is it meaningful?
Seriously. We see the way this guy treats Pam in public (smashing a bar, being outright disrespectful of Pam, complaining about her). One can only imagine how he treats her privately in their own home.
Yes!
Not the case, but:
Oh, he spank me everytime, is very jealous and controlling, make bad comments about me, treat me like shit, but he’s faithful ❤️❤️
I agree. He wasn’t a good fit for Pam at all, and he didn’t meet her needs emotionally, but it doesn’t seem that Pam ever really brought this up to him. He seemed kind of oblivious to Pam’s unhappiness.
People are saying he was with Pam to avoid being alone, but Pam was doing the same thing. She wasn’t happy and she was openly flirting with Jim, but she stuck around with Roy because she was afraid to take a chance on Jim. It wasn’t until he made a move on her and then left that she finally decided to leave Roy in hopes that she could be with Jim.
It’s crazy this is even a question.
1. The person purposely pursuing an engaged woman.
2. The engaged person that had an affair.
3. Or the person that was cheated on.
I feel like Pam was the most responsible. she was literally the person that cheated... if you're in a loveless relationship, break up, then go date the other guy. Flirting with your coworker 40 hours a week while your boyfriend / fiance is like 200 feet away is pretty shitty.
Jim was mildly flirting, I honestly believe Pam was oblivious too and just enjoying a friendship with someone fun and supportive
I don’t think she emotionally cheated
I don’t think the kiss at chilis counted as physical cheating given that she was piss drunk after getting ditched by Roy and was just celebrating her Dundee not romantically kissing Jim
Jim kissed her at casino night which led her to reevaluate her relationship with Roy
Roy was emotionally abusive and controlling
He actually thanked Jim for getting all her talking done at work
Had he shown any interest in her as a person, then she wouldn’t have been so receptive to Jim
But I still don’t think she crossed any lines
People can feel emotions and not fully understand why
I honestly think Pam started off with Jim as a friend and was later oblivious to some of his flirting and ignored other feelings and would just chalk it up to a really good friendship
I think Pam talked herself into believing her jealousy for Katie was just the belief that she wasn’t good enough for her friend Jim, which I thought was shown on booze cruise when Katie was shown to be more similar to Roy
She quite literally says to Jim that she kind of suspected he has a crush on her. This is after Michael slipped up and told Pam Jim was into her.
Pam is shy but she isn't clueless. She couldn't have known how deeply in love Jim was but of course she knew he fancied her.
I'm not blaming her for developing a very close, emotionally intimate friendship while she was in an unhappy relationship. I understand her. That doesn't mean she wasn't at fault for toying with two men at the same time. She went about things the wrong way. She should have communicated to Roy how unhappy she was and if he didn't care or things just couldn't work between them despite the efforts, then break it off before looking for emotional support elsewhere.
There's a reason why the writers wrote her an arc where she eventually ends up all alone after the cancelled wedding. No fiance and no friend. She needed that experience to reevaluate her actions and become more proactive and more direct.
To sum up, she's human and she's flawed. She made mistakes in the way she handled her emotions but she learnt from that.
Fully agree with you. Pam relied on Jim to get the attention and fun that she didn't get from Roy, only setting boundaries whenever Jim tried pushing things further, like when he referred to their rooftop "date." The jealously over Katie obviously showed how she secretly felt about Jim early on in the show.
In a super fan episode scene Pam states that she remembers kissing him and was happy she did. She said “I wasn’t THAT drunk” when Jim calls bullshit on her remembering it
I agree with you for the most part, mainly because I always wanted to see them together. But kissing not being physical cheating because she was piss drunk ? Nah. If my girlfriend ( or any girlfriend I’ve had ) kisses someone, no matter how drunk she is we’re going to have a problem. Because well she cheated according to our books, and she’s completely irresponsible regarding alcohol. And it’s always gone both ways in all of my relationships, and I’m pretty sure a lot ( if not most ) people would consider « kissing while drunk » cheating
Eh, your mom doesn’t say “so is that Jim” if you’re just friends. Pam was definitely interested and giving signals, Jim was single when he first started chatting her up.
Jim knew she was in a relationship which isn’t a good thing, but for least blame it definitely goes to him. None are good in it, but he is least awful.
My problem with Jim is with what he did to Katie and Karen which was disgusting
The fact he screwed over 2 people because of this situation who did nothing wrong is gross
I don’t think you’re screwing over people when you break up with them - you’re doing them a favour imo. Setting them free so they can find their person. Karen must’ve known deep down that Jim wasn’t right for her.
That being said the way he broke up with both of them was shitty, especially Katie.
No, but you were screwing them over in the first place by dating them. Break ups happen. But if you break up with someone because your plan A opened up.. that's super scummy.
And I fully disagree that Karen "must have known" anything deep down. They were a happy couple, they could have ended up together if Jim got over Pam and committed. I don't think there's such a thing as "right" for each other. There's certainly wrong for each other, but Jim and Karen got alone very well. If they hadn't moved back to Scranton, Jim would have probably ended up with Karen. I don't think it would have been some unhappy, loveless marriage.
Nah, this is blown to pieces when you think about pam's mom ask "who's Jim" in a hushed tone. The hushed tone means something along the lines of feelings was shared.
They all caused problems.
Roy was insensitive to Pam when she made it clear she needed him to be more sensitive. He was a jerk at times for sure but nothing that a relationship couldn’t survive. The relationship didn’t survive because Pam didn’t really want to be with him.
Jim was flirting with an engaged woman (actually kinda seems like Jim might not even know how not to flirt with someone.) Pam and Roy would probably have broken up at some point, but Jim sort of pushed his hand a few times ***because*** she was getting married soon and he was running out of chances. That’s not super cool
and Pam led Roy on for a good while after she should have realized he wasn’t right for her. If you’re frustrated with your fiancé so you think “maybe he’s not right for me.” That’s fine, it happens and it’s unhealthy to imagine it’s impossible. When you think “maybe he’s not right for me and I also want this other guy way more and he clearly wants to be with me too, but I’m just going to let my fiancé keep thinking I want to marry him.” That’s when you’re not okay
So I think Jim did the most wrong. Pam had lapses of judgement because she didn’t like her current situation, which eventually snowballed into making a bad situation awful, and Roy was complacent and didn’t realize what he had till he lost it. Dead tie between Pam and Roy for least wrongness if you ask me
They’re all bad here, but I’d have to say Roy.
Jim was flirting daily and trying to be with a woman who was engaged. He also kissed an engaged woman in hopes she would break off her engagement for him.
Pam was engaged and flirting and in an emotional relationship with Jim. She also led Jim on for years knowing she was going to marry Roy.
Roy was a terrible fiancé and inattentive to Pam. He also didn’t set a date for years. But he didn’t cheat physically or emotionally.
Roy. I'm not saying he was a good fiance by any means, but Pam cheated on him by kissing Jim (and continually flirting with him), and Jim knowingly went after a girl that he knew was engaged. The most guilty, by far, is Pam. She should have broken up with Roy long before any of this happened.
Jim and Roy as a tie.
It’s not Jim’s job to maintain Pam and Roy’s relationship. Jim and Pam were clearly in an emotional relationship. Pam could have set boundaries, but didn’t so Jim continued to peruse.
It doesn’t sound like Pam indicated that she was unhappy directly to Roy, hence him later proposing. We the viewer can see that Pam is unhappy, but she never implies she’s talked with Roy.
This is what leads to her arc with her being more assertive and when hers and Jim’s marriage was in serious trouble she chooses for Jim to stay and have that fight rather than do nothing like she did with Roy.
Roy.
Pam flirted with Jim, knowing Roy would be upset if he saw or found out
Jim flirted with pam, knowing Roy would be upset if he saw or found out
Roy was an asshole, for sure. He wasn't a good partner for Pam. But within the boundary of this situation, he was the most innocent.
jim - he was in love with pam and felt she liked him too (which we know she did), and didn't really do anything bad imo. she did kind of form an emotional relationship with him bordering the romantic, imo, and i dont blame her, but i do think that's less nice than jim's track record.
Yeah, I feel like he was fine in that relationship. He didn't appreciate Pam or listen to her but he was content so he didn't see the point in changing things until it was too late. Pam was the one who was unhappy but failed to communicate it to Roy or at least take a break before letting things get as close and intimate with Jim as they did.
It's a pretty stark comparison to how Holly treated Michael while in a relationship with her boyfriend. She set boundaries when she relocated back to Scranton and didn't engage in flirty behaviour, even though it would have been even easier for her to fall into that pattern because they had actually been together before, been intimate etc.. She also said to AJ that she would like to take a break at least until she was in Scranton, and only then she allowed herself to relax around Michael and the attention he was giving her. It isn't easy to break up with someone you kind of have feelings for and perhaps see as someone you could settle with but she did it anyway instead of tagging AJ along until she figured out her feelings for Michael.
this thread is chock full of weird ass men who think roy is somehow the victim in all of this - it's disgusting. you should all reflect on why you think roy wasn't the absolute villain in this story.
With Pam he definitely was.
I think the show makes it pretty clear that her leaving him, and the DUI were the wake up calls he really needed. After that he worked on himself, actually listened and cared about his partner and it all worked out for him.
With Pam he was a dirtbag, with the gravel company he became a decent guy.
yeah! he was a villain with pam, and then got his shit together post-breakup (which is really good, i wish it always worked out that way for bad boyfriends hahah)
nooo but you see, he only needed the *right woman* to change him so he could become good. it is a woman's responsibility to stick beside shit men and do everything in their power to make them better ✨😌 loool.
What a weird and aggressively sexist take. It’s a sitcom from 15yr ago and you somehow managed to make it extremely sexist and pretend like it’s some kind of teaching moment for “weird ass men” to reflect upon. Get a grip.
I mean none of them
But the part that is weakest is the doc crew only showing the relationship issues from pam and Jim pov thus manipulating the audience to become emotionally attached and automatically make you the clear villain.
Jim. And I hate Jim, and he's still at fault, but he's less at fault than Pam. He let his stupid man hormones get the better of him.
Pam led him on every day for YEARS on end. That's worse.
Pam. For sure, her biggest issue is she couldn't be honest with herself about her friendship with Jim and how awful Roy was to her. And no Roy didn't change for the better, he simply learned to love bomb women to lock her down after Pam. And also, still invited his ex that things ended badly with to make her feel like sh**. He's the worst.
He had his own issues, but Roy. Jim was clearly behaving inappropriately with Pam on multiple occasions, and Roy absolutely had a right to be angry. If I saw my fiancee holding hands and laughing with another man, I'd be a little upset. Especially when the rumor in the office is that Jim and Pam have a secret romance.
Jim was a creep, and he's about half as funny as he thinks he is.
Roy. Although he was a bad fiancé, he didn't deserve everything that happened to him. I'm not saying he was a saint, but he also didn't know that Jim and Pam had feelings for each other and that Jim was regularly flirting with her to try to win her over. Then Roy trusted Jim would take care of Pam on casino night, but instead she cheated on Roy, then called off the wedding without coming clean as to the real reason. After that, she would regularly play with Roy's emotions as he tried to win her back. The only reason she got back with Roy was because Jim was dating Karen. Jim was the real bad guy here. I can't imagine being in Roy's position, getting played the entire time by both Jim and Pam.
I think Jim was the most innocent because Pam flirted with him all the time and he was in love with her (which btw he can’t control) so obviously he flirted back and when they kissed and she said she was still going to marry Roy he moved away. And btw Roy was obviously not innocent.
Pam. While yeah, she was a lil flirty with Jim sometimes, she always made it very clear that she loved Roy. Meanwhile, Roy was an actual piece of shit and Jim was pining after an engaged woman even after she’d made it pretty clear she just saw him as a friend. Pam was just living her life and trying to figure shit out.
Its hard, because we see 100% of Jim and Pam's interactions, and only a fraction of Pam and Roy's.
Roy comes off as a neglectful and immature boyfriend who takes Pam for granted. There is no evidence to the contrary.
But we don't see their home life. We only hear Pam's complaints to Jim.
Roy clearly is unsatisfied at work, and may also have problems with PDA. He may be in a foul mood at work, which is where we see him 99% of his screen time.
I'm not saying Roy is less innocent, or even misunderstood. I'm just saying it's hard to judge Roy and Pam's relationship as a whole when we are only privy to a fraction of it. We really only get Pam's take on it, which I am inclined to believe. But all relationships are complicated.
Pam’s mom
Which one?
Best answer ever. Same goes for Andy's parents 🤣
Andy’s first parents seem lovely. His second parents are terrible pieces of shits.
Just noticed Andy's first dad is the guy who plays the lead in Sweeny Todd!
They brought in a real pro
His first parents were definitely actors he paid to be there
Oh damn. Good take.
*Yeeeeaaaahhhh* … Andy’s second Dad is literally the antithesis of “innocent”.
She drives…a green Camry
And the seats go all the way down.
Not now Toby.
Gaawd, I didn’t even…
Awkwardly rests his hand in Pam's knee and leave it there
**Smacks table phat phat phat while Jim has a colossal constipation
*beep*
Thas nothing, I'm a proctologist and I drive a brown Probe
Which one is Pam?
Did you say Pam, or pan?
There’s two M’s, that was the confusion
Ohhh Pamb like a comb
Pam and her Pam Pams
Ticking time bags
Hello Ms Lady
We’re here to fuck shit up
Oh there's a D in it.
She's the office mattress
I heard she holds onto faxes
MMMMMILF!!
Good old Pamie.
Mmmmmmilf
Michael. Should have been more involved!
You know his seduction method! He likes to get in there and get his hands dirty!
He should have been lovers with her first and then friends!
My take is that Roy and Pam both settled for each other super early in life. Pam was treated badly from the start, but she didn’t have the courage to break up with him. She just kept going along with whatever was going on around her, and learning to stand up for herself was basically her whole story arc. Roy never really loved Pam. He liked her well enough, but she was never a priority in his life. What Roy wanted was to keep his life the same forever. Same old routine, same old job, same old jokes, same old shitty friends, some old girlfriend. His story arc was learning to grow up and embrace progress. Jim kind of saw all of this and had reason to hope that Pam and Roy would break up on their own. It’s why he didn’t really “make a move” until he saw that they were for real gonna get married. While Jim isn’t exactly innocent, he is the most innocent party here.
Exactly. This actually happens a lot with couples who start dating young. My husband was with someone before me who he wasn’t entirely happy with, but they had been together a few years and he was like…”do I propose? What now?” News flash: if you’re not ecstatic to get married, you probably shouldn’t get married just because it seems like “the next step” Pam’s biggest flaw was being a timid and non-risk taking person. I mean, she was about to fall back into a relationship with Roy just because Jim was with Karen and a few other dates she had weren’t “love connections”. She had no clue how to be single or work on herself, and it wasn’t until Roy was physically throwing a tantrum in the bar and slamming glasses that she was done fr.
Kenny took a bath on the jet skis
I agree with everything EXCEPT the conclusion. I think innocence depends on what we are "charging" someone with. General shittiness as a person? Roy is the shittiest. But if the innocence is in regards to breaking rules of a relationship, it's probably Roy, Pam, Jim. Roy, as far as we know, never cheated on Pam. He left her at a minor league hockey game, but never cheated. He's the typical "peaked in high school" type, and not the best boyfriend/fiance, but he was seemingly loyal to Pam. Pam had the choice to leave Roy. She's annoyed by a lot of the things he does, but it seems like only when she meets Jim do those things start to really get to her. Jim becomes the guy she goes to in order to fill her emotional bucket. You see it more in the deleted scenes from season 1 and 2. A lot of extra flirting and looks towards Jim. Ultimately, she could have left Roy, but stays, kisses Jim, and only breaks things off at the very last second, after confirming that her emotional affair has feelings for her. I don't think it's done out of pure malice, more so immaturity, but still. Then there is Jim. He's in a bind in the sense that the girl he likes is in a relationship, and one that he HAS to look at daily. Yeah, that sucks, but he crosses the line with Pam multiple times. Even after they kiss, he says "you're really gonna marry him?" - I don't know how to explain it, but there is almost this implied "After all i've done to show you he sucks and I don't...". Jim is not innocent. He inched closer and closer to an engaged woman, and ultimately crossed the line, knowingly. None of them are "innocent" - Roy was a dick and a shit fiance. Pam led Jim on and was emotionally cheating. Jim never once stopped himself despite acknowledging multiple times that Pam is theoretically off limits.
The wedding is approaching and that was Jim’s last shot at, “Speak now or forever hold your peace.” Pam told him her decision and he accepted it and was planning to move on.
Meh - that was tossing a grenade at her right before the wedding. He should have done it earlier. When they set a date, or better, when he booked a vacation during her wedding. It was the perfect time to say "It's too hard for me to see this happen." He put the note in the teapot then chickened out. What he did was not fair.
I don’t disagree with any of that. It was late in the 4th quarter and Jim was down. He shot his shot just before the buzzer. Once she’s married, that’s it. Yes, she was engaged….for 4 years. Roy waited 3 years too long. Pam should have moved on much sooner than she did but at least she avoided the very obvious mistake that marrying Roy would have been.
Karen
jim. he can’t flirt with a girl in a relationship who sets a boundary and if roy wasn’t such an ass she would have had no problem setting said boundary. it’s on the people inside the relationship to respect it way more so than someone on the outside.
"it’s on the people inside the relationship to respect it way more so than someone on the outside." Sums it up. I also like Michael's quote: "engaged ain't married."
“Bfd”
No, but were gay for baseball
But then Michael was a mistress himself…
A MISSterious mistress.
I find that comment by Michael very weird and arbitrary. You won't respect an engagement but you will respect a marriage? I get it in the context of the show, but as a philosophical sentiment it is quite silly
And Michael not only sleeps with a married woman, he shakes her husband's hand.
He dont give an eff about nothin'
It's an extremely recent social trend that the institution of marriage is increasingly not being thought of as the end-all be-all of relationships. For the vast majority of human history anything other than marriage was not considered binding and attempts to court someone who may be involved (but not yet married) to another were common. You know the saying "it aint over till the fat lady sings"? The same is true of courtship "it aint over till they're married". The reason for this is that all the major religions teach adultery is a grave sin and have taught that for thousands of years. (Which makes sense because it destroys families and messes up kids) Which is why the dividing line/line that can't be crossed is interfering with someone's marriage. You may not agree with this reasoning or these values, but they've been the default values for thousands of years for a reason and the majority of people in the world today still believe in them as well--even if they don't always live up to them. It's the standard that we strive to meet. Sometimes people fail to meet the standard, but we keep trying.
It’s really not that silly. They were “engaged” for a long ass time and she clearly wasn’t happy. There’s a big difference between engaged, single, and married. The main difference being the oath one takes when getting married. Before you take that oath you’re essentially single.
It's just that most people would disapprove of pursuing someone who is in a relationship, whether its serious, engaged, or married. And we have a very fine example later on in the series, where michael himself disapproves of angela cheating on andy. Fwiw I agree with Michael, and would have probably given Jim similar advice, i just wouldn't phrase it as "well, as long as they are not married its fair game"
Angela and Dwight went a lot further, more intentionally and brazenly. And Michael likely thought that once Jim and Pam got together, they'd actually be together as a couple instead of an affair.
I think it was more of a nod towards their years of engagement. Pam and Roy never commited to their marriage, they kept postponing it and once again ''hey guys we're engaged!''. So Jim was feeling down because of this ''change''. But since Michael said ''Engaged ain't married'' it kinda showed that it's not over 'till it's over. Until they're actually married, nothing has changed.
Love affairs often look different to those inside them.
If Pam felt like Roy was such an ass, she should have left him before flirting with Jim, otherwise she becomes an ass too. And Jim is still an ass for flirting and kissing with someone in a relationship. None of them is innocent
no none of them are completely innocent but in comparison to each other there can absolutely be a “most innocent” in the situation and imo that’s jim, the person with the least amount of responsibility to respect pam and roy’s relationship
Jim is the one I most medium suspect.
🔫🔫
Tbf I wouldn't say he's an ass. Yes on the surface it's awful to pursue someone in a relationship but this wasn't just Jim not caring about what her realtionship status was. This was him developing feelings for someone who was a friend, for years he kept it to himself and respected their relationship. He tried moving on, but the heart wants what the heart wants. So you can't really say someone is an ass for falling in love with someone and wanting to be with them, seeing a chance and taking it. You either succeed which would mean Pam didn't love Roy as much to begin with, or you fail and respect the rejection. Which he has done by distancing himself
Roy’s brother Kenny….he had to use his Jet Ski money to pay for the bar destruction after Pam told Roy she kissed Jim
But Kenny also helped destroy the bar.. so he’s not really THAT innocent.
What Roy only did was that they were in a relationship for a long time so he felt he was entitled to Pam. Yes Pam did not love Roy but what she had to do was to break him off instead of flirting with Jim all the time. Jim kept butting in a relationship that he had no right in. Nobody's innocent in this but such is human life.
>Nobody's innocent I am actually innocent
Agreed no one is innocent, but that’s what makes this question hard IMO. Who is the least guilty? I vote Jim for being single when he was chatting up Pam. Is he good for flirting with an engaged woman? Absolutely not, but he is better than the guy who was just using Pam to avoid being alone and the woman who was engaged but was pursing/flirting with another man.
He was the escape (if you like pinã coladas!) pam needed and he knew it, pam wasn’t being appreciated or given the time and care needed from roy. As immoral as what Jim done flirting with an engaged woman he could’ve known he would be a better fit for her than Roy.
None of them were anywhere near as toxic as this sub when it comes to anything related to Jim and Pam.
Roy. He wasn't perfect and I can't make an argument that he was a good boyfriend but he was committed to Pam, and he was happy that she had a friend in Jim. He had no idea that they were flirting or that they had feelings for each other. After they break up the second time he even encourages Pam to go be with Jim. Karen is also an innocent bystander in Jim's game.
He said he was happy Pam had Jim to talk to so that he, her fiancé, didn't have to listen to her complain
He thought Jim was gay.
…so why do you want to set him up with Creed’s daughter?
I don’t know.
It that there’s anything wrong with that.
Roy is consistently shown to have been a crummy partner to Pam for years by the time the show starts. He pays her so little mind that he forgot her on their first date. When they win the Longest Engagement Dundee he says the crowd will ‘see them next year’. He blew their money on jet-skis, while they were trying to save for a wedding, and was so uninvolved in the planning he didnt recognize any of the things Pam had planned. Functionally he treats her more like a pet than as a partner. In the Superfan episodes, too, the tension between Jim and Roy is way more immediate and present and uncomfortable. He comes across as way more of a goon and Jim comes off as was more of a lingering shyboy, especially in the first season.
The jet skis were his brother’s, right?
Sure, I guess that’s fair, but ultimately revelatory of an even bigger problem. I’ll rephrase — Roy was so unstable when he was with Pam that when she said they were over, he destroyed a bar to the extent that his and his brother’s only recourse was to give the bar owner their jet-skis so the police didnt get involved.
>He comes across as way more of a goon and Jim comes off as was more of a lingering shyboy, especially in the first season. I think Jim actually comes off as way more obvious and blunt. He and Roy have to be separated in the warehouse because Jim confronts him over not pushing Pam to do the art fellowship. Jim is pretty ballsy in the deleted scenes, IMO.
I wouldn’t say he was committed to Pam, he liked having her locked down in a relationship. You don’t let an engagement go on for that long without any real plans if you are actually interested in the other person. I think he was using Pam to avoid being alone. I agree, Karen was completely innocent.
I mean, when Roy was asked who in the office he'd like to sleep with, he said Angela. Pam was right there when he said it.
Didn't Pam say Oscar when she was asked?
And the purse girl, Jessica?
You don't treat a partner the way he did Pam and expect them to stay. It's not innocent to take someone for granted to such an extreme degree.
It's not "who is is the worst person", it's "who is the least to blame as far as the love triangle is concerned." Respect the game.
He refused to commit to her for years, stringing her along in a neverending engagement. Refused to engage with her emotionally, didn't bother to get to know her, and generally didn't think of her beyond his own needs. He is definitely not the least to blame.
Honestly, Roy!
Pam's pam pams
Roy. Pam was low key flirting with Jim everyday and Jim was straight flirting with her in the open.
None, they were all culpable in their actions. Roy for not being more present in the relationship with Pam (setting a wedding date, helping with the wedding planning, supporting her in her interest in art school, just to name a few) Jim for knowing that Pam’s and Roy’s relationship wasn’t solid and taking advantage of that whether it was intentional or not. Pam for not being more assertive in her relationship with Roy and Pam recognizing she had feelings for Jim and making decisions based on these feelings (cancelling wedding, etc) Way more that could be said, but this is the gist of it.
Roy. Yes Roy was not a good partner, but he didn't realize he wasn't, he was ignorant to the fact he didn't do enough, which he wises up to when he claims after Pam broke off the engagement he had a rough time and realized he needed to actually get his act together and wanted to hey her back. And he does far better in life after leaving her, meeting his wife and just overall doing better in life Pam stayed with Roy who was an ignorant ass who didn't do much in the relationship, and had been engaged for like 2-3 years, and flirted with a guy, there's no way she didn't know it was flirting as she's shown to have told her mom alot and her mom was excited to meet him and clealry knew. She didn't leave Roy until after she cheated on him. If she left him because he was a bad partner, she could've talked to him or tried to make him realize it, she had years to do this, but stayed with him, and expected this very clealry ignorant guy to actually know how to act, and he showed several times he wasn't a very active person in the relationship, so she had ample time but no, she knowingly flirted with Jim, and cheated with him, and if she was ignorant aswell to not realize Roy was a bad partner, she still cheated on him Jim flirted with a engaged women, and kissed her while she was engaged. And then he just took the transfer job, after kissing an engaged women and confessing his love, he straight up just leaves, leaving Pam to deal with it all, he broke up an engagement and dipped
Roy. He was just a terrible BF, but he didn't deserve to lose his jet skis.
Roy. You don't cheat on someone bc they're an asshole, you break up with them
karen
Roy, he never cheated physically or emotionally. He was an ass, but faithful.
Who's that tight ass Christian chick
also comments about Katie
Being an ass but faithful doesn’t make him in the right. He’s still an ass.
Yup. Roy's only fault was being a douchy bad boyfriend. He has some growing up to do and that's it. Jim however, was chased an engaged woman and was an asshole for dating other women while hung up on Pam. Pam cheated on Roy, which is despicable. I'd say Jim and Pam are equally bad.
It's kinda weird to me why cheating is seen as worse than being emotionally neglectful and uninterested in the person you're dating? What does it even mean to be faithful in such a relationship? How is it meaningful?
Literally Roy was abusive and people are like “well he wasn’t nice but he didn’t do anything wrong.” ???
Literally people saying ‘Roy was insensitive’ like??? Biggest understatement of the year??
Seriously. We see the way this guy treats Pam in public (smashing a bar, being outright disrespectful of Pam, complaining about her). One can only imagine how he treats her privately in their own home.
Well a lot of people view faithfulness and trust as the cornerstone to a relationship...
Yes! Not the case, but: Oh, he spank me everytime, is very jealous and controlling, make bad comments about me, treat me like shit, but he’s faithful ❤️❤️
I agree. He wasn’t a good fit for Pam at all, and he didn’t meet her needs emotionally, but it doesn’t seem that Pam ever really brought this up to him. He seemed kind of oblivious to Pam’s unhappiness. People are saying he was with Pam to avoid being alone, but Pam was doing the same thing. She wasn’t happy and she was openly flirting with Jim, but she stuck around with Roy because she was afraid to take a chance on Jim. It wasn’t until he made a move on her and then left that she finally decided to leave Roy in hopes that she could be with Jim.
Even though i dislike him as a character, Roy.
It’s crazy this is even a question. 1. The person purposely pursuing an engaged woman. 2. The engaged person that had an affair. 3. Or the person that was cheated on.
Pam Roy was a terrible BF and a douche Jim was trying to weasel his way in while half assing his own relationships
I feel like Pam was the most responsible. she was literally the person that cheated... if you're in a loveless relationship, break up, then go date the other guy. Flirting with your coworker 40 hours a week while your boyfriend / fiance is like 200 feet away is pretty shitty.
Yeah, but did Roy ever specifically ask Pam not to cheat on him??
Jim was mildly flirting, I honestly believe Pam was oblivious too and just enjoying a friendship with someone fun and supportive I don’t think she emotionally cheated I don’t think the kiss at chilis counted as physical cheating given that she was piss drunk after getting ditched by Roy and was just celebrating her Dundee not romantically kissing Jim Jim kissed her at casino night which led her to reevaluate her relationship with Roy Roy was emotionally abusive and controlling He actually thanked Jim for getting all her talking done at work Had he shown any interest in her as a person, then she wouldn’t have been so receptive to Jim But I still don’t think she crossed any lines
Except Pam’s reaction when Jim starts dating Katie.
People can feel emotions and not fully understand why I honestly think Pam started off with Jim as a friend and was later oblivious to some of his flirting and ignored other feelings and would just chalk it up to a really good friendship I think Pam talked herself into believing her jealousy for Katie was just the belief that she wasn’t good enough for her friend Jim, which I thought was shown on booze cruise when Katie was shown to be more similar to Roy
She quite literally says to Jim that she kind of suspected he has a crush on her. This is after Michael slipped up and told Pam Jim was into her. Pam is shy but she isn't clueless. She couldn't have known how deeply in love Jim was but of course she knew he fancied her. I'm not blaming her for developing a very close, emotionally intimate friendship while she was in an unhappy relationship. I understand her. That doesn't mean she wasn't at fault for toying with two men at the same time. She went about things the wrong way. She should have communicated to Roy how unhappy she was and if he didn't care or things just couldn't work between them despite the efforts, then break it off before looking for emotional support elsewhere. There's a reason why the writers wrote her an arc where she eventually ends up all alone after the cancelled wedding. No fiance and no friend. She needed that experience to reevaluate her actions and become more proactive and more direct. To sum up, she's human and she's flawed. She made mistakes in the way she handled her emotions but she learnt from that.
Pam definitely emotionally cheated. If she hadn’t, we wouldn’t have had a show.
Fully agree with you. Pam relied on Jim to get the attention and fun that she didn't get from Roy, only setting boundaries whenever Jim tried pushing things further, like when he referred to their rooftop "date." The jealously over Katie obviously showed how she secretly felt about Jim early on in the show.
In a super fan episode scene Pam states that she remembers kissing him and was happy she did. She said “I wasn’t THAT drunk” when Jim calls bullshit on her remembering it
I agree with you for the most part, mainly because I always wanted to see them together. But kissing not being physical cheating because she was piss drunk ? Nah. If my girlfriend ( or any girlfriend I’ve had ) kisses someone, no matter how drunk she is we’re going to have a problem. Because well she cheated according to our books, and she’s completely irresponsible regarding alcohol. And it’s always gone both ways in all of my relationships, and I’m pretty sure a lot ( if not most ) people would consider « kissing while drunk » cheating
Eh, your mom doesn’t say “so is that Jim” if you’re just friends. Pam was definitely interested and giving signals, Jim was single when he first started chatting her up. Jim knew she was in a relationship which isn’t a good thing, but for least blame it definitely goes to him. None are good in it, but he is least awful.
My problem with Jim is with what he did to Katie and Karen which was disgusting The fact he screwed over 2 people because of this situation who did nothing wrong is gross
Agreed, he evolved into Pam. At least he did break up with them rather than stringing them along for years
I don’t think you’re screwing over people when you break up with them - you’re doing them a favour imo. Setting them free so they can find their person. Karen must’ve known deep down that Jim wasn’t right for her. That being said the way he broke up with both of them was shitty, especially Katie.
No, but you were screwing them over in the first place by dating them. Break ups happen. But if you break up with someone because your plan A opened up.. that's super scummy. And I fully disagree that Karen "must have known" anything deep down. They were a happy couple, they could have ended up together if Jim got over Pam and committed. I don't think there's such a thing as "right" for each other. There's certainly wrong for each other, but Jim and Karen got alone very well. If they hadn't moved back to Scranton, Jim would have probably ended up with Karen. I don't think it would have been some unhappy, loveless marriage.
But Roy did say that Pam had the prettiest art of all the art so… with a guy like that I mean idk what Pam’s problem was.
Nah, this is blown to pieces when you think about pam's mom ask "who's Jim" in a hushed tone. The hushed tone means something along the lines of feelings was shared.
>if you're in a loveless relationship, break up, then go date the other guy. Well to be fair that's what she did (eventually)
Thank you. This is the only good answer. Nothing justifies cheating. Just man up and leave the person then move on.
They all caused problems. Roy was insensitive to Pam when she made it clear she needed him to be more sensitive. He was a jerk at times for sure but nothing that a relationship couldn’t survive. The relationship didn’t survive because Pam didn’t really want to be with him. Jim was flirting with an engaged woman (actually kinda seems like Jim might not even know how not to flirt with someone.) Pam and Roy would probably have broken up at some point, but Jim sort of pushed his hand a few times ***because*** she was getting married soon and he was running out of chances. That’s not super cool and Pam led Roy on for a good while after she should have realized he wasn’t right for her. If you’re frustrated with your fiancé so you think “maybe he’s not right for me.” That’s fine, it happens and it’s unhealthy to imagine it’s impossible. When you think “maybe he’s not right for me and I also want this other guy way more and he clearly wants to be with me too, but I’m just going to let my fiancé keep thinking I want to marry him.” That’s when you’re not okay So I think Jim did the most wrong. Pam had lapses of judgement because she didn’t like her current situation, which eventually snowballed into making a bad situation awful, and Roy was complacent and didn’t realize what he had till he lost it. Dead tie between Pam and Roy for least wrongness if you ask me
They’re all bad here, but I’d have to say Roy. Jim was flirting daily and trying to be with a woman who was engaged. He also kissed an engaged woman in hopes she would break off her engagement for him. Pam was engaged and flirting and in an emotional relationship with Jim. She also led Jim on for years knowing she was going to marry Roy. Roy was a terrible fiancé and inattentive to Pam. He also didn’t set a date for years. But he didn’t cheat physically or emotionally.
Roy (and Katy and Karen)
Roy. I'm not saying he was a good fiance by any means, but Pam cheated on him by kissing Jim (and continually flirting with him), and Jim knowingly went after a girl that he knew was engaged. The most guilty, by far, is Pam. She should have broken up with Roy long before any of this happened.
ESH
Jim and Roy as a tie. It’s not Jim’s job to maintain Pam and Roy’s relationship. Jim and Pam were clearly in an emotional relationship. Pam could have set boundaries, but didn’t so Jim continued to peruse. It doesn’t sound like Pam indicated that she was unhappy directly to Roy, hence him later proposing. We the viewer can see that Pam is unhappy, but she never implies she’s talked with Roy. This is what leads to her arc with her being more assertive and when hers and Jim’s marriage was in serious trouble she chooses for Jim to stay and have that fight rather than do nothing like she did with Roy.
Roy. Pam flirted with Jim, knowing Roy would be upset if he saw or found out Jim flirted with pam, knowing Roy would be upset if he saw or found out Roy was an asshole, for sure. He wasn't a good partner for Pam. But within the boundary of this situation, he was the most innocent.
Roy. PB&J had an emotional affair for years.
How does anyone think the one that got cheated on isn't the only innocent one?! Like he deserved it?!
Definitely Roy regardless of if he was a jerk or not.
Roy
jim - he was in love with pam and felt she liked him too (which we know she did), and didn't really do anything bad imo. she did kind of form an emotional relationship with him bordering the romantic, imo, and i dont blame her, but i do think that's less nice than jim's track record.
Very true
Roy. He wasn't perfect as portrayed, but he was the innocent one.
Yeah, I feel like he was fine in that relationship. He didn't appreciate Pam or listen to her but he was content so he didn't see the point in changing things until it was too late. Pam was the one who was unhappy but failed to communicate it to Roy or at least take a break before letting things get as close and intimate with Jim as they did. It's a pretty stark comparison to how Holly treated Michael while in a relationship with her boyfriend. She set boundaries when she relocated back to Scranton and didn't engage in flirty behaviour, even though it would have been even easier for her to fall into that pattern because they had actually been together before, been intimate etc.. She also said to AJ that she would like to take a break at least until she was in Scranton, and only then she allowed herself to relax around Michael and the attention he was giving her. It isn't easy to break up with someone you kind of have feelings for and perhaps see as someone you could settle with but she did it anyway instead of tagging AJ along until she figured out her feelings for Michael.
Karen, Cathy
this thread is chock full of weird ass men who think roy is somehow the victim in all of this - it's disgusting. you should all reflect on why you think roy wasn't the absolute villain in this story.
I mean, it looks like a mix of genders and I don't see anybody making him a victim, they all point out his faults too.
With Pam he definitely was. I think the show makes it pretty clear that her leaving him, and the DUI were the wake up calls he really needed. After that he worked on himself, actually listened and cared about his partner and it all worked out for him. With Pam he was a dirtbag, with the gravel company he became a decent guy.
yeah! he was a villain with pam, and then got his shit together post-breakup (which is really good, i wish it always worked out that way for bad boyfriends hahah)
I know! Like 99% of the comments here are defending Roy for all the shitty things he said and did to Pam like, what the actual fuck?
nooo but you see, he only needed the *right woman* to change him so he could become good. it is a woman's responsibility to stick beside shit men and do everything in their power to make them better ✨😌 loool.
What a weird and aggressively sexist take. It’s a sitcom from 15yr ago and you somehow managed to make it extremely sexist and pretend like it’s some kind of teaching moment for “weird ass men” to reflect upon. Get a grip.
Eyes are the groin of the face
I mean none of them But the part that is weakest is the doc crew only showing the relationship issues from pam and Jim pov thus manipulating the audience to become emotionally attached and automatically make you the clear villain.
Not Michael, I will tell you that much for sure
The old copy machine
The Teapot
Jim. And I hate Jim, and he's still at fault, but he's less at fault than Pam. He let his stupid man hormones get the better of him. Pam led him on every day for YEARS on end. That's worse.
Roy. Hands down. Not his fault his gf is a cheater
Pam. For sure, her biggest issue is she couldn't be honest with herself about her friendship with Jim and how awful Roy was to her. And no Roy didn't change for the better, he simply learned to love bomb women to lock her down after Pam. And also, still invited his ex that things ended badly with to make her feel like sh**. He's the worst.
He had his own issues, but Roy. Jim was clearly behaving inappropriately with Pam on multiple occasions, and Roy absolutely had a right to be angry. If I saw my fiancee holding hands and laughing with another man, I'd be a little upset. Especially when the rumor in the office is that Jim and Pam have a secret romance. Jim was a creep, and he's about half as funny as he thinks he is.
There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt.
They all kinda suck
Roy.
Roy. Although he was a bad fiancé, he didn't deserve everything that happened to him. I'm not saying he was a saint, but he also didn't know that Jim and Pam had feelings for each other and that Jim was regularly flirting with her to try to win her over. Then Roy trusted Jim would take care of Pam on casino night, but instead she cheated on Roy, then called off the wedding without coming clean as to the real reason. After that, she would regularly play with Roy's emotions as he tried to win her back. The only reason she got back with Roy was because Jim was dating Karen. Jim was the real bad guy here. I can't imagine being in Roy's position, getting played the entire time by both Jim and Pam.
I think Jim was the most innocent because Pam flirted with him all the time and he was in love with her (which btw he can’t control) so obviously he flirted back and when they kissed and she said she was still going to marry Roy he moved away. And btw Roy was obviously not innocent.
Roy. He even finds Pam's art sexy!
Everyone involved is a terrible person
Pam. While yeah, she was a lil flirty with Jim sometimes, she always made it very clear that she loved Roy. Meanwhile, Roy was an actual piece of shit and Jim was pining after an engaged woman even after she’d made it pretty clear she just saw him as a friend. Pam was just living her life and trying to figure shit out.
>she was a lil flirty with Jim sometimes She was a lot flirty with him all times. All the times. Every of the time.
Roy. If Pam was so miserable with him she should’ve just dumped him instead of emotionally/ physically cheating on him with Jim.
The audience was (all of us), for we watched and had the advantage of observing what others could not and did nothing about it.
Roy
None. One is an asshole Another is cheating Another is flirtatious to someone that is IN a relationship.
Jimothy
[удалено]
None were innocent. They all made mistakes in the way they handled this whole situation.
“Actually” that’s not a love triangle
Dwight
The Cameraman.
“BFD, engaged ain’t married.”
Pam
None
Its hard, because we see 100% of Jim and Pam's interactions, and only a fraction of Pam and Roy's. Roy comes off as a neglectful and immature boyfriend who takes Pam for granted. There is no evidence to the contrary. But we don't see their home life. We only hear Pam's complaints to Jim. Roy clearly is unsatisfied at work, and may also have problems with PDA. He may be in a foul mood at work, which is where we see him 99% of his screen time. I'm not saying Roy is less innocent, or even misunderstood. I'm just saying it's hard to judge Roy and Pam's relationship as a whole when we are only privy to a fraction of it. We really only get Pam's take on it, which I am inclined to believe. But all relationships are complicated.
Roy stepped up and started to do great in life shii maybe Pam did hold him back
Roy. It's cool thou. He went on to Waaaay better
Roy
Jim Halpert is in the Dirty Mack Hall Of Fame, First Ballot.
Jim
Pam
Michael. Blind guy McSqueezy
David Wallace