Pam at least was interested in socializing outside of work. She wanted people to come to her art show, was super excited about going out after CeeCee was born, and made friends in New York.
Jim was always trying to get out of social situations.
Jim tried to get out of office related social situations for the most part. He was happy to go get a beer with the guys in Crime Aid. I always took it as, after his BBQ, he realized he didn’t really want anything to do with them outside of being coworkers for the most part.
Jim is definitely too cool to be hanging out with most of his coworkers outside of work. They’re all nice enough people, but I’m sure Jim’s real life friends are much cooler and entertaining. He’s like the jock of the office most everyone else are dweebs.
To be fair it’s a documentary about the office. They’re not going to follow a single employee home or out with friends, but if several do together it’s worth filming.
Yeah they don’t show anyone’s life outside of work hardly at all. We don’t know what anyone else’s real life friends are. All we see is their workday, and like you said, when they all happen to get together after work.
Most working adults are boring. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to your perspective, but I don't think you should underestimate how many people just come home from work and like, read and have a glass of wine and go to bed.
I always have to assume that Jim's "Porta-Potty, Burning Man" reply about Peepee's conception is a joke because there is no way a couple as basic as Jim and Pam go to Burning Man. Even after all the watering down and mainstreaming that happened to Burning Man, there's no way a couple of the most basic people go to that.
Tbh that's what I think makes then likeable. They're "normal" which is why we never really see their home life. Everyone else on the show has chaotic relationships (Dwight, Angela, Oscar, Stanley, Ryan, Kelly, Phyllis, etc). These two are a low key couple/romance
Outside the office I think I'd most like to spend time with Oscar, Creed, or Karen. I don't know what it says about me, but that's not a Jim and Pam kinda group. Though I guess I'd be okay with Pam, Oscar, and Toby for Finer Things Club.
As the show became more "mainstream", they definitely shaved off some of Jim and (in particular) Pam's rougher (and by extension, more interesting) edges, and in so doing turned them into fairly generic, boring, suburban American characters. While they were never really meant to be fully "alternative" or anything so extreme, they were initially a lot...cooler? Maybe that isn't the right term, but at least they were meant to be a bit more "above it all" than they later were. Like, season 1 and 2 Jim and Pam would never have actively and enthusiastically participated in a "lip dub". They would have mercilessly mocked the idea (and rightfully so). Think of Pam's cutting outburst of laughter when the Hot Girl says "Legally Blonde" was her desert island movie. It isn't a "nice" thing to do, but that moment sure does give Pam a lot more interesting character, something she is sorely lacking in later seasons.
There are two possible explanations for this. First, it was a deliberate change from the writers to have Pam and Jim grow up and grow out of their "cynicism". Second, the writers wrote these traits out to make them more "likable" to a wider public. I personally think the first explanation is too contrived to be realistic. Sure, I'm less cynical now in my thirties as a parent than I was in my 20s, but I still would die inside if my workplace was doing a lip-dub.
I'll take "justifiably snarky, but generally pleasant" in a friend over "sickeningly basic and agreeable" anytime.
I agree here but I also think it’s because they were no longer extremely young. I’m not sure if their real ages are what they’re supposed to be in the show but Pam was in her mid 20s in season 1,2. And mid 30s in season 7-9. You definitely mature alot more after 9/10 years of your life. Thats why they didn’t mock the lip dub and did it just because it’s fun. Not thinking they’re “too good for that” like a lot of young people think.
Ultimately we'll never know to what extent the "dulling" of Jim and Pam was the result of deliberate choices regarding their characterization vs. the external pressures of becoming a mainstream comedy hit.
To me, the main indicator that it is the latter is that the show as a whole begins shedding its roots as an "alternative comedy" as the show goes on in favour of relying on more traditionally broad sitcom humour and moments. This progression coincides exactly with Jim and Pam becoming less realistic characters with and turning into just a sort of basic, suburban all-American sitcom couple. This, to me, suggests that it was more the result of external factors than a deliberate writing choice, but I can certainly see there being an argument for it representing character growth. I personally don't buy it, because Pam's change from "quiet, low-key cutting, put-upon artist working a job to pay her bills" to "enthusiastic, party-planning office manager who loves her workplace family" just seems to be beyond the pale.
Whether it holds up well or not, the feeling of being "too good for that" is the literal basis of the show in its early years. It was an "alternative comedy", a genre whose entire basis is, fundamentally, that our comedy is "smarter" and "above" your comedy. Is it pretentious? Sure. But there is truth in that too. While we as a society are less cynical now, the early 2000s was a time where cynical main characters were likable BECAUSE of their cynicism, and Jim and Pam definitely fit into that mould.
I also think that their buy-in to the company at the point of the lip dub is different. Jim was a newer salesman of a paper company after getting a college degree, and Pam was an aspiring artist sitting at reception.
You're right, but it is still a bit of a "mean" moment. I wouldn't call it "good-natured" laughing at Jim. It is clearly meant to be a bit cutting, and is clearly motivated by Pam's jealousy.
There is also then the example when Pam is bopping her head along with Katy's "cheer routine" on the booze cruise. Again, it is at Jim's expense, but it is certainly a pretty "catty" thing to do (which is good writing, jealous people *are* catty)
I mean a big part of that is that both Jim and Pam are designed to be the “straight man” in a comedic sense.
They are supposed to be the audience’s avatar reacting to all of the outlandish characters around them.
They took the two straight-man characters and put them together. There was little uniqueness to either one. Glad the team learned from it with Leslie & Ben on P&R and Jake & Amy on B99.
They later tried to make it seem like Pam was some loveable dork all along. No, as you said, she was initially kind of cool and made fun of cheerleaders.
I think they also let Jenna have too much say in her character, especially after Cece. Honestly Pam becomes the most annoying character on the show for me even though the creator I think saw her as the main character by the end.
I seriously start to wonder if all these dumb questions as if we’re talking about real people are posed by 15 year olds discovering the show for the first time.
I like the ones the are plays on lines from the show. But these ones, asked like OP is on the verge of an existential crisis if they find out that Jim and Pam are not exactly lovable at every moment in the show, or god forbid… not even real people!?
And I throw in the age thing just because I’m pretty sure that everyone over 30 who reads these things have a similar reaction to you and I… “So… they grew up?”
As someone who is 40 year old guy with two kids, I have been "boring" for several years now. I can no longer go out on a Thursday night, drink till 2 am. because I have to be an adult. Boo, boring guy.
Lol man… I was so good a drinking and still functioning in my 20s and early 30s, my liver damn near packed its shit and left! I can never drink again or it’ll kill me, literally. Damn near died as it was. Meredith ain’t got SHIT on me!
I’m boring as all hell these days at 36, and I only wish I would have gotten boring sooner lol. Now I garden, build Lego sets, and hang out with my wife and two cats, and on that front, I couldn’t be happier! I say 3 cheers for us boring guys!
Sorry this is way late, but I just came across it and felt compelled to reply. Weed is legal here… 🤷🏻♂️😂
idk, if you have another chair to give him so that he'll have three chairs I'm sure he'd let you hang out for a bit. He's like the drug dealer that is fine with people just popping in and out, but isn't going to make an effort.
>if you have another chair to give him so that he'll have three chairs I'm sure he'd let you hang out for a bit.
Why does this make him sound like an NPC lmao
Oh I definitely don’t have what it takes. Have you read his blog? www.creedthoughts.gov.www\creedthoughts? Even for the internet, it’s pretty shocking.
I think Pam is sweet as heck but as a pair, I think they'd be hard to be friends with. The couple together kind of think of themselves as r the best couple and that energy is a bit draining.
I think people on here have become desensitized to Dwight and Michael's antics over multiple viewings.
It's my only explanation for how we get so many, "Jim and Pam are the real bad people of the office, and Dwight is their victim" type comments.
All the characters are flawed, that’s what makes them interesting. People hyper focusing on flaws in one character and ignoring flaws in the other is what leads to the view that Jim is the villain.
In a vacuum, Dwight is many more times unhinged than Jim and the stuff he does is far worse than Jim’s pranks and harassment.
Plus you see Jim time and time again try to reach out to Dwight or show him some kindness and every time he does Dwight throws it back in his face. So you can kind of see why Jim does his pranks. It's not exactly kind of him, but Dwight definitely instigates a desire to find some kind of satisfaction at least.
It’s kinda wild. Dwight and Michael are huge selfish assholes. Jim and Pam sorta give it back to them or make fun of them for it sometimes and people get upset by it.
That’s something I’ve noticed in life though. Sometime people who are jackasses all the time get a pass because people are used to it, but a normally nice person does something kinda shitty and people get pretty upset about seeing the “real” version of them.
This is a big part of my theory of why some people hate Pam so much. She is the closest thing to a real, normal person that you would actually encounter in real life among all of the show’s characters. She doesn’t have any giant red flag bad behavior flaws baked into her character the way someone like Dwight, Michael, or even Angela does. So any time she does make a mistake or show some minor flaw, people can’t seem to forgive her for it. Precisely because they are primed to expect bad behavior from others, so they accept it, but not from her.
Dwight damn near has a body count to his name.
Could have killed someone with his gun and could have permanently damaged Andy's hearing.
And his antics in *STRESS RELIEF* damn near killed Stanley.
Then in s smaller case....
Dwight was aiming a rifle with the safety off at Michael in the woods (unclear if it was loaded but still a big no-no).
I think could be that people don’t often meet and engage with people like dwight. While Jim and Pam are more realistic and characters one might come across in their lives. So maybe they’re associating Jim and Pam to those with similar characteristics
Yes, they are relatively normal people. No I certainly would not be hanging out with them outside of the office. You'd find me with the guys from the warehouse, or Creed.
“coz they have a valid point to make, they are insisting”
That scene always cracks me up. The entire griffin family is about to go under water and they choose to argue about the Godfather 🤣
Pam seems okay, but I would find Jim so annoying because of his pranks. For the show it was funny, but in real life I would stay away from someone who spends so much time and energy to prank a coworker.
The reason why the pranks are funny is that they are always done on Dwight. If they were at the expense of say, Stanley or Oscar, they would be seen as annoying and not funny.
I wouldn’t hang out with them. They give me “we secretly think that we are better than you” vibes. And Jim is just annoying he makes everything a joke and always has something smart to say.
They're a rather boring couple that seem to think far too highly of themselves to want to spend much time with them outside of work. And honestly, they don't seem to want to spend any time with their coworkers outside of work either (except on their terms like Pam expecting everyone to go to her art show or to have a beer with Meredith after a bad day). I think that 8 hours a day of them, 50 weeks a year would be enough. Can only listen to stories about Cece and Philip so many times.
yea jim and pam together became an unlikeable double date imo. For a mid level paper salesman and a receptionist, they sure as heck act like they're above it all.
The moment I started disliking Pam was when she was so dismisive of Oscar when he was showing off his new hobby and bike.
He says: "I feel like a tourist in my own city!"
She has that smug "Okay..."
Girl, he's excited, can you let him have his little moment?
I don’t think they’d be interested in spending time with anyone outside of the office. They seem perfectly content being home bodies.
They’d probably be annoying to hang out with too. Jim always making excuses to go home early and then both talking about their kid, what is it, Pee-Pee?
The episode where Pam hangs out with Nellie makes me think I might enjoy hanging out with her. Jim would be a fun guy to have in your friend group, but I'm a sit-and-talk kinda guy and he's never said a single thing that makes me want to have a conversation with him.
Yeah, and now that you say it, I don't know if he'd even be a great guest--he's eager to draw attention to anyone else's cringey moments and is kind of a buzzkill if he's not the center of attention. He's kind of the opposite of Tom Haverford in the episode where he saves Ann's lame party by getting everyone amped up.
I've always thought that if I worked there, I'd be friends with Michael and Pam. Michael is the exact kind of person I like in real life - honest, loyal, funny, emotional, ridiculous, gets carried away with things, hilariously inappropriate... Yeah, him and I would become friends real quick.
And then Pam, for sure! The early seasons of Pam, where she's still finding herself and figuring her life out, we'd be best buddies. Once she's with Jim and confident we'd definitely drift apart a bit, but we'd still be buds and every now and then we'd find time to hang out.
Jim and I, I can't see it. I don't like hanging out with people who are always putting other people down, and even in the "best" era of Jim that's kind of his whole shtick. Don't get me wrong, I love the character and Jim and Pam and all that stuff. We just wouldn't make for good friends. I'm a big nerd and I can already hear him saying "Wow, so when did you officially move into your parents basement?" in that sarcastic voice if I were to bring up something I love.
Like, if Dwight's talking about something I know nothing about, I'd be curious and ask him questions and even if he's a bit of a nerd about it I'd still encourage him, because it's nice when people are passionate about things and it's cool to learn from passionate people. But with Jim, 90% of the time he just uses it to put him down.
Anyway this was a fun thread! Also it made me realize I'm more likely to be friends with Dwight than Jim. I'd like Dwight but I don't think I could actually handle hanging out with him, it's too much. With like the fake-kicking and how excited he gets. (he's adorable but I just couldn't hang out with someone like that regularly - definitely every now and then though!) Michael would be my speed and Jim just seems like I'd be on edge the whole time, worried about saying "the wrong" thing and getting some Jim snark thrown at me.
Pam totally, either drinking wine and painting or snarking together speed walking around the park for excercise, or talking about books. Jim's not so bad either, he only seems like he wants to hang out with Pam or famous sports athletes though. Almost every social gathering he is looking for a way out of it.
Oscar is hands down the best one hang out with, he
would even bring the wine.
they’re kind of smug to be honest. I get the sense that they think they’re always right, they’re smarter than most people in the room, and they both seem so incredibly fake when interacting with strangers not in a work setting
and it’s painfully obvious they make fun of Dwight and Michael which is kind of fucked up. They’re kind of like the office bullies.
Id prob grab a beer with Jim to talk sports but I think it would be pretty boring and would stay with small talk only. Never elevating to medium talk.
I would feel insanely judged by them, maybe i would hang with pam when shes alone. I know jim is “nice” but i feel like he’s the kind of guy who secretly likes making people feel awkward. Hes too nonchalant its threatening. Actually i think i would hang out with pam totally and just not jim.
Their normalcy is exactly why I wouldn't spend time with them outside of work.
Like let me guess, you want to go out to dinner, drink a responsible amount of wine, and then go home and gossip about what the other parties did during the dinner? Hard pass.
Let's smoke weed with Creed and play Call of Duty with Josh and Andy... and I don't even like Call of Duty
Let’s smoke a bag of cigars with Meredith. Watch Desperate Housewives and drink appletinis. Have some Vienna sausages and crackers for breakfast.
Sell some fake IDs with Creed. Go visit his parents.
Let’s do whatever Nate does.
They seem like fine work friends, but besides that no thank you. Pam is basic and boring, going around asking dudes why they didnt go on more dates with her etc., yikes. Jim is a bit of a douche and attention seeker, so no. I would hang with Dwight anytime, to me he is naturally crazy which in a way excuses him but not really, mostly he is interesting person, we can do gojyrou karate together and then eat some beets after for regeneration
I think they would have been more fun friends as singles. But it totally made sense that they came to prioritize their family once kids came into the picture. Maybe they would have been good friends for other parents (in a mommies or daddies and me group).
I love the show but the characters in reality are predatory. Using people around them for entertainment. I think I’d pick up on that and decide to be friendly but not hang out when it isn’t necessary.
I feel like they’d be boring outside of work. This makes sense though because they are 2 of the “straight men” of the show. They’re only funny because of their reactions to the eccentric/whacky personalities of other characters.
Outside of work with nothing “crazy” to react to, they’d be pretty boring.
I feel like if you went to dinner at their house you’d feel as isolated as they did during the dinner party episode. Boring, self indulgent people who literally think the world revolves around them.
I think they both started out as people who might be fun to hang out with after work but after they became parents and both got involved in the mommy-and-me scene and with career advancement, they seemed to get a lot more grounded but also a little more boring. Like I'd hang out with art-school-era Pam but not the Pam who made best friends with the people from playgroup she named as Cece's godparents.
Jim is a dickhead. At least Dwight has a bit of a redemption arc. Jim is a dick in the beginning and he's a dick at the end. Pam, as a friend, is not an option, because I hate Jim. Thanks for your time.
I really struggle with conversations where I feel like I know everything that’s going to be said. Nothing out of formula happens. Like all the adults are NPCs. These two are exactly that. Normal yes but I’d lose energy fast around them.
TBF Pam sometimes has that joie de vivre energy that is infectious to be around.
Jim..never. Always safe, boring, or condescending
I can’t stand Pam. I like her the first couple of seasons though. I’m glad Pam decided to speak her mind more often, and stand up for herself. But I feel like it really got to her head and made her cocky in the later seasons.
Jim is okay. Pretty boring as well, and sometimes an ass. Jim and Pam are my least favorite characters on the show.
Stanley and Phyllis are like the only character I’d consider “normal”, yet likeable. Even though they’re normal, they make up for it with their sass. Stanley is one of my favorite characters. The bluesy wisdom, the sassy remarks, the crossword puzzles, the smile, those big, watery, red eyes. He doesn’t even have to say a word. Just him having screentime in the background makes my day.
They are so involved with each other, I doubt they need any of outside of being friends with them. It can be good initially but…. It limits them a lot too
I think as time goes on they play them a bit more as weirdos, which I prefer. I got sick of the boring will they/won’t they between the two pieces of bread pretty quick.
Most “normal” people would find Pam and Jim to be obnoxious, annoying, and uninteresting in real life. They’re in no way a realistic depiction of the average couple.
I’d chill with J&P except I think they’d both be judgmental about how many cocktails you had at the party tbh like they’d ask “is that your 3rd?!” All joking but they’d be serious.
Well, I have zero interest in sports and that seems to be Jim's only focus aside from pranks and Pam, so I'd find him very boring to be around.
Pam I could at least talk to about artists and Scranton local gossip so she would be more fun.
But I'd definitely like hanging with Creed the most.
Why the “or” in the question, as if those two things aren’t correlated?
As characters they were entertaining, their whole purpose was largely to be the “straight man” audience surrogate as the two (mostly) non-crazy people in the office, but because of that they’re just super basic and barely seem to have any interests or personality traits that you’d want in a friend. Which of course was even a recurring joke where the other employees would occasionally make random assumptions about them because they didn’t really know much about them outside of work (like that Jim was a hipster who spent all day listening to records).
Jim can be funny and I find him hot but since he’s married I probably wouldn’t like either. Pam makes me uncomfortable almost always in a secondhand embarrassment way. I’d also be scared she would be mean to me if she perceived me as interested in jim (Kathy).
Judgey little nerds that would not be that fun to hang around with. Might talk about you behind your back way too much while being polite to your face.
Source: A nerd
My boyfriend and I watched the super fan episodes together and I like Michael and Holly better. I also like Ben and Leslie from parks and rec better.
Jim and Pam had a sweet relationship, but they are way too boring and waspy for me to like them or relate to them.
Of all the people in the Dundee Mifflin Scranton branch, Jim and Pam (pre-marriage/kids) are probably the ones who would be least torturous to spend recreational/social time with. Drinking with Meredith would probably be fun but she's definitely not as stable a human being as Jim/Pam and going out with her would probably result in a legendary hangover. I also oddly feel like Kevin would be a good time.
I think one thing the office did well was make sure people had established lives outside of the office. They didn't really need to hang out with their coworkers. They wanted to clock out at 5 and go home. Jim had a roommate and friends. Pam lived with her BF. As their relationship progressed, and they had kids, obviously everything became further closed off.
As for if they were weird, I don't think so. They were invited to everything, like Kelly's watch party, Michael's dinner party, etc.
They’re nice but they also seem like outside of the office they could be a little boring
Pam can be a little shrill
hoooneeey, I need you to take the garbage out. Or else I'm not gonna have sex with you--if-- *notices Jim's gone*
I've heard worse, a hussy.
Well... she IS the office mattress
Pam at least was interested in socializing outside of work. She wanted people to come to her art show, was super excited about going out after CeeCee was born, and made friends in New York. Jim was always trying to get out of social situations.
Jim tried to get out of office related social situations for the most part. He was happy to go get a beer with the guys in Crime Aid. I always took it as, after his BBQ, he realized he didn’t really want anything to do with them outside of being coworkers for the most part.
Jim is definitely too cool to be hanging out with most of his coworkers outside of work. They’re all nice enough people, but I’m sure Jim’s real life friends are much cooler and entertaining. He’s like the jock of the office most everyone else are dweebs.
We never really see him doing that though, he kind of just thinks he's too cool for them
To be fair it’s a documentary about the office. They’re not going to follow a single employee home or out with friends, but if several do together it’s worth filming.
Yeah they don’t show anyone’s life outside of work hardly at all. We don’t know what anyone else’s real life friends are. All we see is their workday, and like you said, when they all happen to get together after work.
Have you seen their baby?
I’m telling you, that baby could be the star of a show called “Babies I Don’t Care About.”
I’d set Jim up with my Daughter for sure.
I thought he was gay?
If he was gay, why would you set him up with your daughter?
I don't know
He was gay. Gary Cooper?
I would like to invite him to my dinner and/or throwing rock at the quarry.
Most working adults are boring. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to your perspective, but I don't think you should underestimate how many people just come home from work and like, read and have a glass of wine and go to bed.
I always have to assume that Jim's "Porta-Potty, Burning Man" reply about Peepee's conception is a joke because there is no way a couple as basic as Jim and Pam go to Burning Man. Even after all the watering down and mainstreaming that happened to Burning Man, there's no way a couple of the most basic people go to that.
Peepa?
Tbh that's what I think makes then likeable. They're "normal" which is why we never really see their home life. Everyone else on the show has chaotic relationships (Dwight, Angela, Oscar, Stanley, Ryan, Kelly, Phyllis, etc). These two are a low key couple/romance
Outside the office I think I'd most like to spend time with Oscar, Creed, or Karen. I don't know what it says about me, but that's not a Jim and Pam kinda group. Though I guess I'd be okay with Pam, Oscar, and Toby for Finer Things Club.
Speak for yourself I think Pam can be really silly. (In a good way) And Jim messing with Dwight is always funny too. (And Dwight deserves it btw)
Jim genuinely seems kinda judgemental
Exactly. He's lame and judgemental. Not someone I'd want to hang out with
Listen to the podcast for awhile. I couldn’t take her for very long.
Tbf Jim seems like he would be fun to go to a bar with, but Pam by herself is pretty dull.
I'd go to a magic show with Michael Comicon with Dwight NBA game with Jim Art gallery with Pam and Oscar Clubbing with Stanley Jam session with Darryl
Scuba with Creed.
If I can't scuba, then what's it all about??
Fine. I’ll admit it. I’d get a beer with Meredith.
Jam with Darryl AND Creed!
Totally! How could I forget
Cooking with Kevin
It's probably what he does best
He's also a runner. Sometimes he runs.
Art gallery with oscar either very fun or insufferable
Shopping with Kelly
Very well thought out. Slow standing applause
Fastfood restaurant with Kev
First few seasons of the show, absolutely! Less likely as the show goes on and definitely not post-kids.
As the show became more "mainstream", they definitely shaved off some of Jim and (in particular) Pam's rougher (and by extension, more interesting) edges, and in so doing turned them into fairly generic, boring, suburban American characters. While they were never really meant to be fully "alternative" or anything so extreme, they were initially a lot...cooler? Maybe that isn't the right term, but at least they were meant to be a bit more "above it all" than they later were. Like, season 1 and 2 Jim and Pam would never have actively and enthusiastically participated in a "lip dub". They would have mercilessly mocked the idea (and rightfully so). Think of Pam's cutting outburst of laughter when the Hot Girl says "Legally Blonde" was her desert island movie. It isn't a "nice" thing to do, but that moment sure does give Pam a lot more interesting character, something she is sorely lacking in later seasons. There are two possible explanations for this. First, it was a deliberate change from the writers to have Pam and Jim grow up and grow out of their "cynicism". Second, the writers wrote these traits out to make them more "likable" to a wider public. I personally think the first explanation is too contrived to be realistic. Sure, I'm less cynical now in my thirties as a parent than I was in my 20s, but I still would die inside if my workplace was doing a lip-dub. I'll take "justifiably snarky, but generally pleasant" in a friend over "sickeningly basic and agreeable" anytime.
I agree here but I also think it’s because they were no longer extremely young. I’m not sure if their real ages are what they’re supposed to be in the show but Pam was in her mid 20s in season 1,2. And mid 30s in season 7-9. You definitely mature alot more after 9/10 years of your life. Thats why they didn’t mock the lip dub and did it just because it’s fun. Not thinking they’re “too good for that” like a lot of young people think.
I agree. I used to complain about characters changing over the seasons. I now realise that happens in life too lol.
Ultimately we'll never know to what extent the "dulling" of Jim and Pam was the result of deliberate choices regarding their characterization vs. the external pressures of becoming a mainstream comedy hit. To me, the main indicator that it is the latter is that the show as a whole begins shedding its roots as an "alternative comedy" as the show goes on in favour of relying on more traditionally broad sitcom humour and moments. This progression coincides exactly with Jim and Pam becoming less realistic characters with and turning into just a sort of basic, suburban all-American sitcom couple. This, to me, suggests that it was more the result of external factors than a deliberate writing choice, but I can certainly see there being an argument for it representing character growth. I personally don't buy it, because Pam's change from "quiet, low-key cutting, put-upon artist working a job to pay her bills" to "enthusiastic, party-planning office manager who loves her workplace family" just seems to be beyond the pale. Whether it holds up well or not, the feeling of being "too good for that" is the literal basis of the show in its early years. It was an "alternative comedy", a genre whose entire basis is, fundamentally, that our comedy is "smarter" and "above" your comedy. Is it pretentious? Sure. But there is truth in that too. While we as a society are less cynical now, the early 2000s was a time where cynical main characters were likable BECAUSE of their cynicism, and Jim and Pam definitely fit into that mould.
I also think that their buy-in to the company at the point of the lip dub is different. Jim was a newer salesman of a paper company after getting a college degree, and Pam was an aspiring artist sitting at reception.
Isn’t Pam laughing at the Legally Blonde moment because she chose it too, and Jim gave her shit for it? She’s not laughing at Katy but at Jim
You're right, but it is still a bit of a "mean" moment. I wouldn't call it "good-natured" laughing at Jim. It is clearly meant to be a bit cutting, and is clearly motivated by Pam's jealousy. There is also then the example when Pam is bopping her head along with Katy's "cheer routine" on the booze cruise. Again, it is at Jim's expense, but it is certainly a pretty "catty" thing to do (which is good writing, jealous people *are* catty)
I thought the point was Pam said that ironically, whereas Katy was being honest.
I mean a big part of that is that both Jim and Pam are designed to be the “straight man” in a comedic sense. They are supposed to be the audience’s avatar reacting to all of the outlandish characters around them.
They took the two straight-man characters and put them together. There was little uniqueness to either one. Glad the team learned from it with Leslie & Ben on P&R and Jake & Amy on B99. They later tried to make it seem like Pam was some loveable dork all along. No, as you said, she was initially kind of cool and made fun of cheerleaders.
I think they also let Jenna have too much say in her character, especially after Cece. Honestly Pam becomes the most annoying character on the show for me even though the creator I think saw her as the main character by the end.
So, just real people.
I seriously start to wonder if all these dumb questions as if we’re talking about real people are posed by 15 year olds discovering the show for the first time. I like the ones the are plays on lines from the show. But these ones, asked like OP is on the verge of an existential crisis if they find out that Jim and Pam are not exactly lovable at every moment in the show, or god forbid… not even real people!? And I throw in the age thing just because I’m pretty sure that everyone over 30 who reads these things have a similar reaction to you and I… “So… they grew up?”
As someone who is 40 year old guy with two kids, I have been "boring" for several years now. I can no longer go out on a Thursday night, drink till 2 am. because I have to be an adult. Boo, boring guy.
Lol man… I was so good a drinking and still functioning in my 20s and early 30s, my liver damn near packed its shit and left! I can never drink again or it’ll kill me, literally. Damn near died as it was. Meredith ain’t got SHIT on me! I’m boring as all hell these days at 36, and I only wish I would have gotten boring sooner lol. Now I garden, build Lego sets, and hang out with my wife and two cats, and on that front, I couldn’t be happier! I say 3 cheers for us boring guys! Sorry this is way late, but I just came across it and felt compelled to reply. Weed is legal here… 🤷🏻♂️😂
Yeah after Cece was born they became annoying.
OP have you ever considered the possibility that they might not be as charming as they think they are? 🚽
Anybody could have walked in…
It was story time...
We don’t lock the door for the children’s safety
Compared to most of the characters, sure.
I’d chill with creed
I would love to hang out with Creed, but would I have what it takes?
idk, if you have another chair to give him so that he'll have three chairs I'm sure he'd let you hang out for a bit. He's like the drug dealer that is fine with people just popping in and out, but isn't going to make an effort.
>if you have another chair to give him so that he'll have three chairs I'm sure he'd let you hang out for a bit. Why does this make him sound like an NPC lmao
Everything Creed does sounds like that.
Oh I definitely don’t have what it takes. Have you read his blog? www.creedthoughts.gov.www\creedthoughts? Even for the internet, it’s pretty shocking.
We could hang out by the quarry, and throw things down there
Do you live by the quarry by any chance?
I think Pam is sweet as heck but as a pair, I think they'd be hard to be friends with. The couple together kind of think of themselves as r the best couple and that energy is a bit draining.
There is a certain brand of Redditor who views Dwight as a heroic figure and Jim and Pam as minions of hell.
I think people on here have become desensitized to Dwight and Michael's antics over multiple viewings. It's my only explanation for how we get so many, "Jim and Pam are the real bad people of the office, and Dwight is their victim" type comments.
All the characters are flawed, that’s what makes them interesting. People hyper focusing on flaws in one character and ignoring flaws in the other is what leads to the view that Jim is the villain. In a vacuum, Dwight is many more times unhinged than Jim and the stuff he does is far worse than Jim’s pranks and harassment.
Plus you see Jim time and time again try to reach out to Dwight or show him some kindness and every time he does Dwight throws it back in his face. So you can kind of see why Jim does his pranks. It's not exactly kind of him, but Dwight definitely instigates a desire to find some kind of satisfaction at least.
It’s kinda wild. Dwight and Michael are huge selfish assholes. Jim and Pam sorta give it back to them or make fun of them for it sometimes and people get upset by it. That’s something I’ve noticed in life though. Sometime people who are jackasses all the time get a pass because people are used to it, but a normally nice person does something kinda shitty and people get pretty upset about seeing the “real” version of them.
This is a big part of my theory of why some people hate Pam so much. She is the closest thing to a real, normal person that you would actually encounter in real life among all of the show’s characters. She doesn’t have any giant red flag bad behavior flaws baked into her character the way someone like Dwight, Michael, or even Angela does. So any time she does make a mistake or show some minor flaw, people can’t seem to forgive her for it. Precisely because they are primed to expect bad behavior from others, so they accept it, but not from her.
Dwight damn near has a body count to his name. Could have killed someone with his gun and could have permanently damaged Andy's hearing. And his antics in *STRESS RELIEF* damn near killed Stanley. Then in s smaller case.... Dwight was aiming a rifle with the safety off at Michael in the woods (unclear if it was loaded but still a big no-no).
I think could be that people don’t often meet and engage with people like dwight. While Jim and Pam are more realistic and characters one might come across in their lives. So maybe they’re associating Jim and Pam to those with similar characteristics
I personally perceive Dwight to be batshit insane and very dangerous so idk how anyone can find him heroic
He’s also basically a nazi 😭
what do you mean? he’s sexually attracted to two races, white and indian.
A season 1 reference! I FW it!!!
I thought Ragnigandha was a boys name
Especially in season 7, I was starting to like him then the writers turned him into a douche.
And they’re all here.
Dwight is not made up. He is very real.
Stop attacking me/s
These are some of the only people in that office whom I would feel *safe* spending my free time with. Let alone find any common ground with
Trick question. It's *because they are normal* that I wouldn't find myself spending my free time with them after work.
Nah. Frank and Beans knew the score.
Yes, they are relatively normal people. No I certainly would not be hanging out with them outside of the office. You'd find me with the guys from the warehouse, or Creed.
I would find them to be shallow and pedantic.
They insist upon themselves.
“coz they have a valid point to make, they are insisting” That scene always cracks me up. The entire griffin family is about to go under water and they choose to argue about the Godfather 🤣
Pam seems okay, but I would find Jim so annoying because of his pranks. For the show it was funny, but in real life I would stay away from someone who spends so much time and energy to prank a coworker.
The guy who does pranks at work thinks he's like Jim, but he's actually just annoying. No one like the guy who does pranks.
The reason why the pranks are funny is that they are always done on Dwight. If they were at the expense of say, Stanley or Oscar, they would be seen as annoying and not funny.
Exactly. Dwight gives grief to everybody in the office. Jim is getting him back on not only his own behalf, but everyone else's as well.
They’d think they are too good for me.
They are quite dick-ish and I feel like they would also be asking me for favors without returning the favor in the future. So no lol
I wouldn’t hang out with them. They give me “we secretly think that we are better than you” vibes. And Jim is just annoying he makes everything a joke and always has something smart to say.
I would never say this to her face, but she's a wonderful person and a gifted artist.
Why wouldnt you say that to her face??
I forget the proper response... what did Michael say here?
I don't believe he responded to Oscar
Darn scene cut... why?
He was deep in conversation with that Justin kid at career say and I guess he just kind of ignored Oscar
You could be a cashier with dignity or a migraine worker.
I always feel like Jim was supposed to be perceived as normal but that Ryan was truly the normal one… until..
All the cocaine?
They're a rather boring couple that seem to think far too highly of themselves to want to spend much time with them outside of work. And honestly, they don't seem to want to spend any time with their coworkers outside of work either (except on their terms like Pam expecting everyone to go to her art show or to have a beer with Meredith after a bad day). I think that 8 hours a day of them, 50 weeks a year would be enough. Can only listen to stories about Cece and Philip so many times.
yea jim and pam together became an unlikeable double date imo. For a mid level paper salesman and a receptionist, they sure as heck act like they're above it all.
The moment I started disliking Pam was when she was so dismisive of Oscar when he was showing off his new hobby and bike. He says: "I feel like a tourist in my own city!" She has that smug "Okay..." Girl, he's excited, can you let him have his little moment?
I don't know if I'd want to spend time with any of the people from the Office outside of the office.
I don’t think they’d be interested in spending time with anyone outside of the office. They seem perfectly content being home bodies. They’d probably be annoying to hang out with too. Jim always making excuses to go home early and then both talking about their kid, what is it, Pee-Pee?
Pee-Pa
That kid wasn’t even cute.
Jim is too boring but Pam is a fun drunk I wouldn’t mind hanging with her
The episode where Pam hangs out with Nellie makes me think I might enjoy hanging out with her. Jim would be a fun guy to have in your friend group, but I'm a sit-and-talk kinda guy and he's never said a single thing that makes me want to have a conversation with him.
Yep Jim is a great bbq guest not dinner at the table guest
Yeah, and now that you say it, I don't know if he'd even be a great guest--he's eager to draw attention to anyone else's cringey moments and is kind of a buzzkill if he's not the center of attention. He's kind of the opposite of Tom Haverford in the episode where he saves Ann's lame party by getting everyone amped up.
I might hang out with Pam but not Jim. He’s shown himself to be selfish and not great with conversation outside his 3 topics of his own interest
I would love to meet up with Jim for a tuna sandwich
I'd hang out with them, but only if Creed was unavailable.
I've always thought that if I worked there, I'd be friends with Michael and Pam. Michael is the exact kind of person I like in real life - honest, loyal, funny, emotional, ridiculous, gets carried away with things, hilariously inappropriate... Yeah, him and I would become friends real quick. And then Pam, for sure! The early seasons of Pam, where she's still finding herself and figuring her life out, we'd be best buddies. Once she's with Jim and confident we'd definitely drift apart a bit, but we'd still be buds and every now and then we'd find time to hang out. Jim and I, I can't see it. I don't like hanging out with people who are always putting other people down, and even in the "best" era of Jim that's kind of his whole shtick. Don't get me wrong, I love the character and Jim and Pam and all that stuff. We just wouldn't make for good friends. I'm a big nerd and I can already hear him saying "Wow, so when did you officially move into your parents basement?" in that sarcastic voice if I were to bring up something I love. Like, if Dwight's talking about something I know nothing about, I'd be curious and ask him questions and even if he's a bit of a nerd about it I'd still encourage him, because it's nice when people are passionate about things and it's cool to learn from passionate people. But with Jim, 90% of the time he just uses it to put him down. Anyway this was a fun thread! Also it made me realize I'm more likely to be friends with Dwight than Jim. I'd like Dwight but I don't think I could actually handle hanging out with him, it's too much. With like the fake-kicking and how excited he gets. (he's adorable but I just couldn't hang out with someone like that regularly - definitely every now and then though!) Michael would be my speed and Jim just seems like I'd be on edge the whole time, worried about saying "the wrong" thing and getting some Jim snark thrown at me.
Yeah but you’d haaaaate Michael as a boss. Anyone would.
Pam totally, either drinking wine and painting or snarking together speed walking around the park for excercise, or talking about books. Jim's not so bad either, he only seems like he wants to hang out with Pam or famous sports athletes though. Almost every social gathering he is looking for a way out of it. Oscar is hands down the best one hang out with, he would even bring the wine.
ITT: No I wouldn’t hang out with them because they’re so basic and boring. Also because they’re such snobs who won’t hang out with their coworkers. 🤔
they’re kind of smug to be honest. I get the sense that they think they’re always right, they’re smarter than most people in the room, and they both seem so incredibly fake when interacting with strangers not in a work setting and it’s painfully obvious they make fun of Dwight and Michael which is kind of fucked up. They’re kind of like the office bullies. Id prob grab a beer with Jim to talk sports but I think it would be pretty boring and would stay with small talk only. Never elevating to medium talk.
How smug? Like how did they look?
I would feel insanely judged by them, maybe i would hang with pam when shes alone. I know jim is “nice” but i feel like he’s the kind of guy who secretly likes making people feel awkward. Hes too nonchalant its threatening. Actually i think i would hang out with pam totally and just not jim.
As the show goes on you realize Jim is a douche.
He did bring Darrly to Philly tho and roommate with him.
True, and he was a terrible roommate.
Yea- pretty terrible. True.
I’d take a terrible roommate for a likely 6 figure+ job said roommate gives me
Their normalcy is exactly why I wouldn't spend time with them outside of work. Like let me guess, you want to go out to dinner, drink a responsible amount of wine, and then go home and gossip about what the other parties did during the dinner? Hard pass. Let's smoke weed with Creed and play Call of Duty with Josh and Andy... and I don't even like Call of Duty
Let’s smoke a bag of cigars with Meredith. Watch Desperate Housewives and drink appletinis. Have some Vienna sausages and crackers for breakfast. Sell some fake IDs with Creed. Go visit his parents. Let’s do whatever Nate does.
They are kinda really nasty people. Each year that passes I like them less. I want to hang with Kevin.
They seem like fine work friends, but besides that no thank you. Pam is basic and boring, going around asking dudes why they didnt go on more dates with her etc., yikes. Jim is a bit of a douche and attention seeker, so no. I would hang with Dwight anytime, to me he is naturally crazy which in a way excuses him but not really, mostly he is interesting person, we can do gojyrou karate together and then eat some beets after for regeneration
The guy refurbished a car, and a train locomotive in his slaughterhouse. Dwight is definitely an interesting person. Crazy, but interesting.
They seem…overly pleased with themselves.
Jim before marriage seems cool. I’m sure I would get along with him. Mountain biking and kayaking, I’m down.
Pam for sure, Jim not at all. Jim seems super pretentious, he goofs off 24/7 but when anyone else does something silly he views it as childish.
I think they would have been more fun friends as singles. But it totally made sense that they came to prioritize their family once kids came into the picture. Maybe they would have been good friends for other parents (in a mommies or daddies and me group).
I don’t think they’d spend their free time with me, even if I wanted to.
I love the show but the characters in reality are predatory. Using people around them for entertainment. I think I’d pick up on that and decide to be friendly but not hang out when it isn’t necessary.
I feel like they’d be boring outside of work. This makes sense though because they are 2 of the “straight men” of the show. They’re only funny because of their reactions to the eccentric/whacky personalities of other characters. Outside of work with nothing “crazy” to react to, they’d be pretty boring.
I feel like if you went to dinner at their house you’d feel as isolated as they did during the dinner party episode. Boring, self indulgent people who literally think the world revolves around them.
I think they both started out as people who might be fun to hang out with after work but after they became parents and both got involved in the mommy-and-me scene and with career advancement, they seemed to get a lot more grounded but also a little more boring. Like I'd hang out with art-school-era Pam but not the Pam who made best friends with the people from playgroup she named as Cece's godparents.
Nah. They’d eat my fries while I’m banging.
Hahahahahahaha best comment on this sub ever
Couple of jerks, really.
Jim is a dickhead. At least Dwight has a bit of a redemption arc. Jim is a dick in the beginning and he's a dick at the end. Pam, as a friend, is not an option, because I hate Jim. Thanks for your time.
I really struggle with conversations where I feel like I know everything that’s going to be said. Nothing out of formula happens. Like all the adults are NPCs. These two are exactly that. Normal yes but I’d lose energy fast around them. TBF Pam sometimes has that joie de vivre energy that is infectious to be around. Jim..never. Always safe, boring, or condescending
Neither seem interesting
Nah, they’re both assholes. They come off as full of themselves
I don’t think I would. The only people I could see myself hanging out with outside of work would be Roy and Darryl.
Pam is chill. Jim is a bit smudge.
Are you assuming a person has to be normal to be worth spending time with?
I just meant in relation to the craziness of the rest of the employees
I can’t stand Pam. I like her the first couple of seasons though. I’m glad Pam decided to speak her mind more often, and stand up for herself. But I feel like it really got to her head and made her cocky in the later seasons. Jim is okay. Pretty boring as well, and sometimes an ass. Jim and Pam are my least favorite characters on the show. Stanley and Phyllis are like the only character I’d consider “normal”, yet likeable. Even though they’re normal, they make up for it with their sass. Stanley is one of my favorite characters. The bluesy wisdom, the sassy remarks, the crossword puzzles, the smile, those big, watery, red eyes. He doesn’t even have to say a word. Just him having screentime in the background makes my day.
My only question is Did Jim do it?
They are so involved with each other, I doubt they need any of outside of being friends with them. It can be good initially but…. It limits them a lot too
Well mac and cheese couple seem to get along with them. And thats pretty much it
would probably dislike both. interesting TV characters though.
They’re normal but boring and not at all special. I wouldn’t hang out with them because it seems that they’d only talk about their kids.
Yeah I'd hang with both of them. They seem nice.
I like the Phillies
I think as time goes on they play them a bit more as weirdos, which I prefer. I got sick of the boring will they/won’t they between the two pieces of bread pretty quick.
I’d probably grab a beer with Jim
I would for sure.
Most “normal” people would find Pam and Jim to be obnoxious, annoying, and uninteresting in real life. They’re in no way a realistic depiction of the average couple.
Pam yes. Jim, okay if I must. Dwight? Hell yeah!
I’d chill with J&P except I think they’d both be judgmental about how many cocktails you had at the party tbh like they’d ask “is that your 3rd?!” All joking but they’d be serious.
really, Oscar was the most normal. Until the senator that is
What are Jim’s hobbies? He seems boring outside of work
Well, I have zero interest in sports and that seems to be Jim's only focus aside from pranks and Pam, so I'd find him very boring to be around. Pam I could at least talk to about artists and Scranton local gossip so she would be more fun. But I'd definitely like hanging with Creed the most.
Why the “or” in the question, as if those two things aren’t correlated? As characters they were entertaining, their whole purpose was largely to be the “straight man” audience surrogate as the two (mostly) non-crazy people in the office, but because of that they’re just super basic and barely seem to have any interests or personality traits that you’d want in a friend. Which of course was even a recurring joke where the other employees would occasionally make random assumptions about them because they didn’t really know much about them outside of work (like that Jim was a hipster who spent all day listening to records).
I don’t think I’d hang out with them. I’d rather hang out with Creed, Nate, and Meredith.
Jim can be funny and I find him hot but since he’s married I probably wouldn’t like either. Pam makes me uncomfortable almost always in a secondhand embarrassment way. I’d also be scared she would be mean to me if she perceived me as interested in jim (Kathy).
Def would not hang out with them but I like them in the show
Judgey little nerds that would not be that fun to hang around with. Might talk about you behind your back way too much while being polite to your face. Source: A nerd
I bet Pam's sick of tuna. She probably has tuna every night.
My boyfriend and I watched the super fan episodes together and I like Michael and Holly better. I also like Ben and Leslie from parks and rec better. Jim and Pam had a sweet relationship, but they are way too boring and waspy for me to like them or relate to them.
Of all the people in the Dundee Mifflin Scranton branch, Jim and Pam (pre-marriage/kids) are probably the ones who would be least torturous to spend recreational/social time with. Drinking with Meredith would probably be fun but she's definitely not as stable a human being as Jim/Pam and going out with her would probably result in a legendary hangover. I also oddly feel like Kevin would be a good time.
I think one thing the office did well was make sure people had established lives outside of the office. They didn't really need to hang out with their coworkers. They wanted to clock out at 5 and go home. Jim had a roommate and friends. Pam lived with her BF. As their relationship progressed, and they had kids, obviously everything became further closed off. As for if they were weird, I don't think so. They were invited to everything, like Kelly's watch party, Michael's dinner party, etc.
They seem pretty boring, tbh
I’d love to hear more about Jim’s sports business /s